Have the birthers cornered Obama?

Vox Day’s most recent post The birth certificate is a forgery asserts that part of the recently released birth certificate for President Obama was entered after the page was scanned:

Karl Denninger declares that Mr. Farah was right again. The birth certificate released by the White House is a forgery.

The site he links to shows that the word “Male” doesn’t have the same curve as the word “Sex” immediately above it.  This would seem to be impossible unless Male was added after the document was scanned:

In addition, WND has a column showing that the number assigned to the President’s birth certificate doesn’t fit the process which was used by the state at the time, and a youtube video which claims that parts of the recently released long form birth certificate have font characteristics which a typewriter couldn’t have created:

I don’t have any expertise in this area, but all of these at least seem compelling to my untrained eye.  As I recall, Dan Rather was stung by forged documents containing similar anomalies.

Could this be why the president was willing to have Lt. Col. Lakin go to Leavenworth instead of simply releasing a document he first claimed wasn’t available, and later released due to mounting public pressure?

Edit:  Josh suggested that the “M” in “Male” was higher than the other characters, which caused the word to look straight once the page was curved.  Looking at the PDF file under magnification I think he has a good point here.  I drew a line under the entire name of the hospital using the GIMP straight line feature:

If I blow that image up the M does look higher:

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69 Responses to Have the birthers cornered Obama?

  1. Anon says:

    When I look at the photocopy posted at the white house website, just a glance, the slope/curvature seems to match between “Sex” and “Male”.

    http://www.whitehouse.gov/sites/default/files/rss_viewer/birth-certificate-long-form.pdf

    And why would one have to type those things in after the fact in order to forge a birth certificate?

  2. Oak says:

    I’m a little stunned to be seeing this on your blog Dalrock.

    Look folks: The Secret Service and Election officials have to CERTIFY a person can run BEFORE they are on the ballot.

    -That was done.

    After a lot of paranoid, semi-racist chatter from people who aren’t fond of the results of the election, the governor of Hawaii ordered the matter looked into.

    -And it was determined he had a valid birth certificate.

    His birthday was announced in TWO Honolulu papers, currently available on microphysh for the paranoid. The doctor who birthed him was identified. Let me guess… They had a plan to elect Obama the day he was born, so they published his birth in two newspapers… Ugh. Really?

    The President, after dealing with these wackos for years, had to go through the process of getting a
    State Waiver’ so he can get a copy of the Long Form. And he releases it.

    -And people think it’s a forgery?? -Because one letter might look funny?

    The mere idea, that the Federal/State government and multiple other agencies all colluded to get Obama cleared for the ballot, BEFORE he was elected, knowing all this was public record??

    Preposterous. Ridiculous. Paranoid. And most likely: Racist.

    Obama is not my favorite candidate. He’s made lots of mistakes. But you can’t miss how he’s been treated differently by his opponents. No one shouted “liar” at Bush during his speeches… even though they later found out he’d lied about quite a few things!

    “He’s an Arab”
    “Secret Muslim”
    “Socialist”

    None of it true, but that hasn’t stopped anyone.

    This is nothing but a racist witch-hunt to delegitimize an election that didn’t go their way. Either accept the election commissions authority to run elections, or move to a country that suits your political stance.

    Don’t feed the trolls Dalrock… Don’t feed the trolls.

  3. J says:

    Well I never thought I would join the birthers, and I’m still not ready to sign up.

    But, the Kerning and that curvature analysis – it’s… kinda….

    …it looks forged to me too.

    [D: That is pretty much where I am too. I would welcome someone who can explain why these guys are wrong. I think the other side weakens their case by calling people names (paranoid, racist, etc.) instead of calmly explaining the anomalies. There might be nothing there, but when people say a topic is off limits it tends to make me wonder if there isn’t something there.]

  4. Oak says:

    I’m still waiting for the explanation as to how he got into the August 4, 1961 paper (Two newspapers, actually) in Honolulu. Again… a conspiracy started at his birth??

    [D: WND has an explanation. They are hot on this issue, so they might be wrong.]

    Guys, even Fox is giving up on this line of crap. You gotta be kidding me.

  5. J says:

    I’m not saying he is or he isn’t. And I don’t buy a lot of the other so-called discrepancies.

    But there are examples of kerning. How do you explain that?

    Since you have the image yourself – check it out. The “TY” in maternity. There is no way to mis-align the image that produces that. The only explanation is that the operator manually moved the type head back to the left between the key strokes. Possible. But likely?

    That’s… kinda weird.

  6. Oak says:

    When I hear hoof-prints outside my window, the first thing I think is “horse!”

    Apparently, some people think “Zebra!” There must be a conspiracy to bring Zebras into my lawn!

    Or maybe it’s just a horse.

    So? Ask yourself: Massive goverment conspiracy hatched in 1963, involving two major newspapers, State workers, corrupt election officials, and the Secret Service… all conspired to elect then infant Obama as the first black president??

    Or a steaming load of crap with a completely innocent answer?

    You decide!

  7. Clarence says:

    Oak:

    Just because I believe he was born in Hawaii, doesn’t mean the birth certificate wasn’t forged. I will admit though, that I don’t know what else could be on a birth certificate besides, date of birth, nationality, and sex that would be important enough to forge. Nonetheless we now have a sworn document from someone who should know about these documents that this one is a forgery. That doesn’t mean it is, but there do seem to be enough issues with the document that perhaps someone like Factcheck.org should check out these claims. If marketticker had been dishonest in the past and wasn’t a place where one can find dissing of both Repubs and Democrats I might believe Denniger is messing with the document, but others are saying the same thing and finding their own issues.

    I’ll admit none of this make sense. I certainly don’t think there was a fifty year old plot to put Obama in the White House , esp since he was born still in the time of Jim Crow. It’s a rather weak supposition but perhaps the original birth certificate was lost, and they had to try to forge another one?

  8. NMH says:

    You would not expect the curvature to be the same if the “sex” part of the document was not flat on the glass like the “male” part was when the photocopy was made.

    This really is silly.

  9. Sweet As says:

    I’m with Oak on this one.

    Sure, don’t like Obama because of his politics or practices, but to not like him because of race or religion is. . . well, it’s simply crass.

  10. J says:

    I agree Sweet, but none of that has anything to do with the document before you.

    Ignore the Obama part. Do not try to determine if “Obama’s Birth Certificate” was forged. Pretend it belongs to someone else. Heck, don’t even read the form. Just look at the type.

    Look at the document and check out the kerning. Serious.

  11. Oak says:

    Clarence, you might be right. Who knows?

    INDEPENDENT of his birth certificate, the evidence is crystal clear he was born in Hawaii.

  12. Anon says:

    “Look at the document and check out the kerning. Serious.”

    But what’s to say that these people doing the analysis didn’t digitally alter the available copy of the document?

  13. Oak says:

    Dalrock, that link to WND has some very telling slants to the way they give the information. The kind of lies you can only tell when you know the truth, and want to obscure it.

    [D: Like I mentioned before, WND really has an ax to grind here. It doesn’t mean they are wrong, but they definitely have chosen sides.]

    “Newspaper didn’t have an editor to vet birth announcements”. Yeah… unlike all the papers that send a reporter into the birthing room.

    “Obama’s parents didn’t live as husband and wife at the stated address”. See how carefully they crafted this sentence? It says absolutely nothing. In other words, either his mother lived there, or his father lived there, or they both lived there but not as husband and wife. YAWN.

    Any logical interpretation of data must conclude that Obama was a U.S. citizen, who won the presidency of the U.S. through a fair election.

    A refusal to interpret data in a logical manner, indicates an agenda outside of the stated facts. Holocaust deniers, ‘birthers’, flat earthers, etc.

    Some people will never believe he’s a citizen, no matter what evidence is produced.

  14. Oak says:

    NMH is absolutely right. The B.C. was publically stated as being “bound in a volume”. Meaning they took a large volume, flattened it as best they could and scanned it.

  15. dan says:

    You’re right. Obama was actually born a girl, but they had to add “male” after the fact.

    Idiots.

  16. A Lady says:

    Look, sometimes paranoid racist is the correct term, although in the case of my homie Denninger, he’s just deluded, as he has been about some other things (even though the man is often right about bigger economic issues).

    Karl is great, but…he’s not on the side of truth here, he’s just frothy and inaccurate and worked up. Which is too bad, he is burning a ton of capital on this when he is SO TOTALLY RIGHT about lots of other things, like all the mortgage stuff. C’est la.

    WND, they are once in awhile good at nailing things, but this is just them working up their own base into a lather, separate from Karl’s legitimate delusion-confusion.

    People with real backgrounds in scanning old documents are not siding with the remaining birthers, and I think that says more than enough.

    Sorry, Obama totally is not my cuppa as presidente, but the birth certificate is realio trulio.

  17. Twenty says:

    For the record: I’m not an Obama fan, but I think he was probably born in Hawaii. I don’t think the birther angle is politically productive: (a.) It doesn’t have broad appeal (b.) It doesn’t seem persuasive (c.) Even if you win, so what? 2012 is coming fast, kids, and if you think we’ll get to wipe out all of Barry O’s bad deeds just because he’s retroactively discovered to be ineligible to be President, you’re nuts.

    That said, a word about the “sex”/”male” slopes. The word “sex” was probably printed on the form, while “male” was typed in later, as is the normal course of things when filling out forms. The form wasn’t perfectly aligned in the typewriter, so of course the typed words don’t match the printed ones.

  18. Kai says:

    First, all this stuff about ‘it’s not like they were plotting to elect him president at birth’ is misdirection. You don’t need to be planning to fun for president to attempt to fake your way into being a natural-born citizen. Any of these things (including the birth announcements) could have been done with the plan of securing him citizenship – not presidency.

    Second, one doesn’t have to be a racist to question this. It’s possible to dislike obama on his own merits. It is possible to question his birth even if you like him and are hispanic. Yes, some of the ‘birther’ movement is racist. But that doesn’t mean that anyone who questions is racially motivated.

    I think it is likely that he was born in Hawaii. but I really don’t understand how all this mess can exist. My birth certificate is at home in a drawer. I could pass it out to someone tomorrow. My filing records are at city hall. How on earth can it be such a big production for him to produce his birth certificate? Why, assuming there was nothing sketchy on it, would he have stalled at all? Why not just produce it immediately? It just seems really strange.

    Mind you, I also think it’s a dumb law. I don’t see any reason that a naturalized citizen should not be able to become president.

  19. Anon says:

    @kai

    “You don’t need to be planning to fun for president to attempt to fake your way into being a natural-born citizen. Any of these things (including the birth announcements) could have been done with the plan of securing him citizenship – not presidency.”

    He was a U.S. citizen automatically by virtue of his mother’s citizenship, no matter where he was born. I believe the issue of where he was born only comes up if he wants to be president or vice president. And, in any event, if it was that big of an issue for them, it would have been simpler just to go to Hawaii and give birth, since she had every right to do so, rather than try to weave some complex tale by misleading the press and falsifying certificates.

  20. Oak says:

    I didn’t make this clear in my earlier posts, so I will here: I do not mean to accuse anyone HERE of being a racist.

  21. Oak says:

    Kai, you don’t understand the facts.

    Your State may be different, but in Hawaii, (and my home State) you get a ‘birth card’ or ‘short form’. That was always available.

    You are not entitled to the Long Form. The only way you can get it, is to hire a lawyer and apply for a variance to the State rules. It takes time.

    And many of these educated birthers are fully aware of this, yet continue to disseminate misleading information so people like you can bring them up as ‘disturbing questions.’

    And if they WEREN’T aware of the basic rules surrounding birth certificates in Hawaii, then I’m at a loss as to how they can challenge State, and Federal officials who’s job it is to determine such things.

  22. LSP says:

    So we’re reduced to this…… Misaligned letters on a fifty year old birth certificate.

    Have any of you birthers ever seen the quality of type produced with old, manual typewriters? I’ve used them and very rarely is the type properly aligned, nor does it look particularly good. Modern computer printed pages did not exist then. This document was produced on an old, manual typewriter. A light keystroke with an old ribbon and you would be left with a poorly formed letter. It was very common. Scan the original document into Acrobat at a low resolution and the quality of the print is reduced even more.

    That’s all there is here.

    Nothing more.

  23. Kate says:

    Maybe he was born female😉

  24. Rum says:

    Obama spent a lot of money getting affadavits from people regarding his long form BC. Every natural born American I know would enjoy showing off his birth documents. For Obama, doing so was emotionally onerous. Regardless of what else might be true about this matter, this point stands out.
    My guess is that he has an Everest sized chip on his shoulder from all the affirmative action he has being given.

  25. J says:

    All these points are fine and valid. He probably was born in Hawaii, it’s not politically productive, etc.

    But say these words: I have examined the document and I don’t see any evidence of kerning at the indicated positions.

    That’s weird, guys.

  26. Anon says:

    @Kate

    That’s what I was thinking. He’s our first black tranny pres. So they had to take the time to type in “Male”, and to change the name from Baracka to Barack.

  27. Rum says:

    The “Law” about the long form BC in Hawaii was changed very recently to discourage inquires re BCs. However, you own your own information. You never need a lawyer just to access or release them.
    A BC is like your Medical Records. You cannot be refused access or a right to copy.
    BO felt emotional resistance to doing what any of us would have done without thinking 2-3 years ago.
    He has issues about being American.

  28. Svar says:

    This is strange. Not sure what to make of it.

    @ Oak

    Many people don’t like his politics, but most of the people who oppose him aren’t racists.

  29. Svar says:

    “That’s what I was thinking. He’s our first black tranny pres. So they had to take the time to type in “Male”, and to change the name from Baracka to Barack.”

    LOL. I remember someone saying that he was the First Lesbian President and I think Roissy accused him of being a closet homo on account of the manliness of his wife(there’s some merit in that argument).

  30. Gorbachev says:

    Something fishy went on, for sure.

    But the odds are that he was born in Hawaii.

  31. Josh says:

    Sorry Dalrock, but I don’t believe it, and here’s why.

    Any mechanical typewriter can have imperfect registration. It doesn’t put the letter exactly where it is supposed to, and letters are shifted in small amount in various directions. This explains both things here.

    1. The “M” in “Male” is shifted up, so it looks like the word is in a straight line, rather than curved. But the M itself is curved, just look at the top and bottom peaks of the M. Also, the red line below the text is dishonest – it covers up some of the “M” and “a”. Finally, get a copy of the PDF and look for yourself. Read what I just said, then trust your eyes. If you can even consider that what I said as plausable, then you can’t use that as proof, it’s just far too weak and subjective to do anything but discredit yourself.

    2. Kerning – he’s just plain wrong. Again, the characters in the text can be shifted randomly, and you can observe character overlap in the authentic birth certificate as well. In Obama’s document, the “kerning” in the “ty” of “Maternity” is caused by the “t” being shifted up and the the right. To prove kerning, you would need a large sample of text, so that you can CONSISTENTLY see systematic variable spacing between letters.

    Finally, if it hasn’t been addressed before, birthers have raised the question of layers, resolution, color fringes – these are artifacts of either PDF compression, or OCR software, or the scanner, or all of the above. Or none, and it was indeed a forgery. The problem is you cannot prove it one way or another.

    I’m fairly sympathetic to the birthers. Obama has spent money keeping this hidden, and has apparently needlessly dragged this out for years. It doesn’t seem logical. So I have an open mind. But you can’t be the boy who cried wolf. You’ve got to make sure you’ve got a wolf first.

    Unfortunately, it’s just not that hard to make a forgery that is indistinguishable from a real one, especially if you release it in a lossy format like PDF. I don’t believe it is possible to convince the world using the document the White House gives. You think they’re just going to hand you a noose to hang them with?

  32. Dalrock says:

    @Josh
    The “M” in “Male” is shifted up, so it looks like the word is in a straight line, rather than curved. But the M itself is curved, just look at the top and bottom peaks of the M.

    Looking at the “Ma” combination in the name of the hospital this may well explain it. I’ll see if I can create my own image to show what I’m seeing.

    Edit: I added new images of this to the original post.

    Kerning – he’s just plain wrong. Again, the characters in the text can be shifted randomly, and you can observe character overlap in the authentic birth certificate as well. In Obama’s document, the “kerning” in the “ty” of “Maternity” is caused by the “t” being shifted up and the the right. To prove kerning, you would need a large sample of text, so that you can CONSISTENTLY see systematic variable spacing between letters.

    I don’t have any knowledge here either way, but your explanation sounds plausible. Although looking at it blown up it really is striking. Some of the other characters touch each other so an imperfection in the spacing of the type might be to blame. I’m not 100% convinced on this one yet.

  33. Ceer says:

    I’m no fan of President Obama. In fact, I’d find it quite amusing if the birthers turned out to be right.

    However, I haven’t seen anyone talk about undecended genitals on this blog. Apparently, it’s reasonably common, especially in premature babies. Perhaps the delivery room team did not at the time wish to do deal with that inspection shortly after birth, just failing to report the sex and hospital on the long form birth certificate.

    Also, I failed to see anything about kerning in these documents. Wasn’t the only issue the lack of slant in the beginning of the gender and hospital fields?

    Another possible explanation is that these fields were left blank by the original registrar due to some clerical error and never corrected. Years later, the new Hawaii registrar discovered this and attempted to “correct” the documents themselves, rather than hiring a graphic artist.

  34. J says:

    The lower-case “t” could be shifted to the right, visible in the “it” combination in maternITy and hospITal.

    It could explain the TY kerning in “maternity”…

  35. njartist49 says:

    If Obama wants to say this is his birth certificate; and if it was in crayon, let him; you are all missing the real issue being hidden in plain sight: he is not a natural born citizen. Period. The Constitution requires a natural born citizen: both parents must be American citizens at time of birth.

  36. Rum says:

    Undescended testes is not an issue with much traction here. If there is a normal looking phallus, you have a boy child. Girl babies do not have a normal looking phallus.
    Ambiguous genitals at birth never have a properly formed phallus.
    The confusing cases show some kind of female openings and a less-than-perfect penis.
    IOWs, if yu can piss out the end of it, yu are not a girl and no one will ever think so.

  37. Kai says:

    “Oak says:
    Kai, you don’t understand the facts.”
    I openly stated that I didn’t understand how this worked.
    I don’t live in any state. I suppose you folk simply do things quite a bit differently there.
    Though I still suspect a presidential candidate for a major party could get a long-form hustled out quickly if the desire were to exist.

  38. Lavazza says:

    If people DON’T think Obama was NOT born in Hawaii to an American mother, I do not see the point of raising questions. It’s not like GWB’s Texas Air Guard service where no witnesses stepped forward to confirm that he had fully fullfilled his duties.

  39. bystander says:

    My son works in digital manipulation of images; he categorically states that this document has been fiddled with. His politics are of the right; but in honesty he offers that it is conceivable that the manipulation was for aesthetic purposes; to clean up those old smudges; etc. I am not sure that njartist is correct about both parents needing to be native citizens; I think the case law allows the mother only. Again, I am uncertain of this.

    It is hard to credit this White House with that much imagination, but I could even conceive of a purposeful move to leave editing artifacts in the file to “divide and conquer.”

  40. I tend to agree with Hawaiian Libertarian on this issue: it’s fairly irrelevant. I’m not a birther, but we have a whole culture built on phoniness. Funny money, fake food supply, politicians pretending they stand for the people when they only care about maintaining or amassing power for themselves. If the birth certificate is fake (and I’m not at all convinced it is), so what?

    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2011/04/fake-president-for-fake-world.html

  41. Pol Mordreth says:

    American law requires Jus Solis, not Jus Sanguinis to determine “natural-born”. It only requires that the child be born on American soil, and that if he was born of foreign parents he would have to provide a signed and notarized document forever renouncing the other countries’ citizenship (at age 21, i believe).

    I really think that there was something on the original BC that would contradict his self-narrative… something embarrassing like being listed as caucasian or his name being Barry Dunham… As ham-handed as his handlers have been this last two years it wouldn’t surprise me at all…

    Regards,
    Pol

  42. Aurini says:

    I think the most likely answer is:

    1. He was born in Hawaii, at the hospital in question, and had a birth certificate very similar to the one released, but —

    2. The released birth certificate is a deliberately bad forgery to give the conspiracists something to spin their wheels over.

    There’s just too many damned questions coming up with the birth certificate (a conspiracy I initially dismissed as ridiculous) for there not to be something going on, but with the resources available in the USG, this is the best they could produce? Nonsense. Any 15yo with photoshop could do a better job. Something weird is going on.

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    Pol Mordeth
    American law requires Jus Solis, not Jus Sanguinis to determine “natural-born”. It only requires that the child be born on American soil, and that if he was born of foreign parents he would have to provide a signed and notarized document forever renouncing the other countries’ citizenship (at age 21, i believe).

    You are confusing US citizenship with the condition of being a “natural born citizen”. They are two different things, and were two different things in 1961. The former governor of California, Mr. Arnold Shriver, is a citizen but he cannot ever be President because he is not a natural born citizen. Sen. McCain was born in Panama, but he was born of two US citizens in a US military hospital – all of this information being freely available in 2008, his status was not debatable. There was some question in 1964 whether Sen. Goldwater could run for President, as he was not born in any state, but rather in the Arizona Territory (pre 1912), however it was quickly determined he was eligible.

    The purpose of the “natural born citizen” clause as I understand it was originally to prevent British subjects from becoming citizens and running for President – specifically Alexander Hamilton – because of the foreign influence in their thinking processes. We can see from Pres. Obama’s own alienation from American culture how wise this clause was, and is.

    FWIW I take no position on whether this document is a forgery or not, but do find it unjust that Pres. Obama has allowed military men to go to prison, rather than just produce this document years ago.

  44. uncleFred says:

    Without regard to the location of Obama’s birth the kerning displayed in the long form document and the lack of kerning displayed in the other birth certificate produced on the same typewrite is definitive. The consistency of kerning in one and lack of it in the other eliminates randomness in a mechanical device as a source of the difference.

    I spent several years early in my career working on electronic type setting technology. Kerned characters are not handled by adjusting the position of two characters. Each kerned pair of characters are treated by the system as a single character. In other words there is a character for ‘t’ another for ‘y’ and another for ‘ty’. Escapement, registration, etc are all handled for a kerned character pair as if it was one character. Modern computer programs handle the characters differently but the effect in the output is the same. If you look at the way that the kerned characters share space, the precise degree of over lap, and their relative vertical alignment, you can see that their relationship is perfect. These characters are definitely kerned not a result of random shifting.

    Personally I believe that Obama was almost certainly born in Hawaii. My professional opinion is that the document in question has been altered.

  45. Dalrock says:

    @uncleFred
    If you look at the way that the kerned characters share space, the precise degree of over lap, and their relative vertical alignment, you can see that their relationship is perfect. These characters are definitely kerned not a result of random shifting.

    To my untrained eye the kerned characters really do look like something other than random chance. But then there are artifacts like the elevated “Ma” which would seem to be proof of a mechanical process. Any thoughts on what might be causing the letters “Ma” to be higher than the rest of the line in the field for the hospital if this was done via a modern word processor and not a typewriter?

  46. Sweet As says:

    If I look at my own birth certificate — from California 1976 — the copy that I have has the seal on it, but is an off-center, upper-left quarter page copy with two type faces: the type face of the form, and the type face of a typewriter.

    My son’s birth certificate — Pennsylvania 2008 — is a half-sheet, two type faces. Impressed seal on it, too.

    My husband’s birth certificate — Pennsylvania 1972 — is a half sheet (like DS’s), two type faces, impressed seal.

    I have all of these in my hand, because I’m filling out more immigration paperwork for NZ. (From Long Term Business Visa to Permanent Resident Visa).

    I suppose if everyone dug out their birth certificates, they might notice that they have two type faces on them. This is not evidence of forgery, it’s because there’s a form, and then there’s someone who fills out the form, which usually means two different type faces — that of the form, and that of the machine typing in (today, computer, then, typewriter).

    I don’t know — does that raise reasonable doubt as to whether this is a forgery?

    In addition, it could also be a “reissue.” When my mother applied for her passport (so she could visit us), she couldn’t find her original birth certificate. So, she ordered one from California (1954). Turns out, the warehouse that stored her document had a fire some years ago, and that if a person requests a certificate from certain parts of the warehouse, they have to be reissued. This means that my mother had to do fingerprinting and an affidavit from her mother (or other living relative) verifying her birth in that county. I haven’t seen her reissue, but I would assume that it looks like the 2009 form with two type faces. I’m not going to ask my mother if I can see her birth certificate, because that would be silly.

    So, Obama’s certificate — if not original — can be a reissue. But, I still dont’ see how it’s relevant. We know his mother was a citizen (perhaps they should ask for her birth certificate?) and any child born to a US citizen gets citizenship. Likewise, anyone born on US soil is a US citizen. Since he wins on both counts, he’s a US citizen.

    And, my parents are well into the Tea Party and other forms of conservative what-not, and even *they* don’t buy this birther crap. My father and mother (and brother in law and sister) are all smart enough to know that 1. he was already vetted by agencies far greater than these nuts; 2. that birth certificates get destroyed and, inherently, aren’t particularly relevant (seeing as a person’s maternity, place of birth, etc can be verified), and can be reissued; and 3. (i assume) that there can be more than one type face on a certificate or government form of any kind.

    After all, the seal has a different type face too (the impressed seal), and also my drivers license has two type faces, and my immigration visas to NZ have two type faces, and my passport has several type faces in them. . ..

    So, yeah. Government forms, man, multiple type faces.

  47. Robin says:

    Is it ‘likely’? Is what likely? That the form was adjusted in the typewriter a few times while filling it out? Sure. Why not. Maybe they filled out part of the form, and then came back and finished it later, meanwhile someone else happened to be using it! Maybe they ran out of ink. But is that likely!? What? And you know, sometimes keys on typewriters are just a little wonky. I’m not seeing anything here, that you couldn’t base a paranoid conspiracy out of based on examining any form ever fed into a typewriter.

  48. Bike Bubba says:

    Regarding the alignment, keep in mind that the proper alignment for a curved microfiche is a curve, not a line. So one word slightly to the right of the other will follow a different line, even if the alignment of the typewriter is perfect. Notice that the top left curves a LOT more than the bottom; this is really something hard to do with photoshop, so it argues at least that a portion of the birth certificate is authentic.

    Personally, I’m still baffled by what kind of cynicism must exist on the part of the President that he wouldn’t release little records like this that appear to be 100% innocuous. I had guessed that his reason was that there was something embarassing there, but not even that.

    So if the document is real, he’s apparently spent millions to avoid releasing a document that does not embarass himself in the least.

    Throwing money down the toilet–there’s a nice allegory for the Obama administration, no?

  49. dragnet says:

    LOL

  50. LSP says:

    @ the birthers…

    What proof do you have that Ronald Reagan or George W. Bush were born in the U.S.?

  51. Dalrock says:

    @Bike Bubba
    So if the document is real, he’s apparently spent millions to avoid releasing a document that does not embarass himself in the least.

    Throwing money down the toilet–there’s a nice allegory for the Obama administration, no?

    Not to mention the Soldier who did time in Leavenworth, and any other service members who wondered whether their orders deploying them to a war zone were legit but elected not to risk imprisonment over the issue.

  52. blather says:

    Three points I would like to make:

    1) I own two manual typewriters, since I and nostalgic and collect them. I have typed on them and it takes regular maintenance for the letters to be typed “straight”. Any typewriter will “type crooked.” I have also typed something, pulled the paper out, put it back in later. It is difficult to get the same alignment as before and will produce a crooked appearance. It is NORMAL.

    2) My 1977 issued birth certificate was typed with a type writer. It has crooked lettering. Again, normal. Once, I could not find my original and I got a reissue. It was reissued in 2002 and it looked totally different than the original. It was printed from a computer. It is still valid.

    3) I think the reason why Obama waited as long as he did to release his birth certificate was a matter of personal pride. It is insulting to have to answer the Birthers. Think about it. His nationality and birth status was already verified by the government before he campaigned for the Presidency. Has any other President had to show his birth certificate to the nation before? I don’t think so. The idea is rightfully insulting and offensive to his pride. I would be insulted by the Birthers, too, if they came after me. I would have shown my birth info sooner, though. Pride doesn’t always make good and timely decisions. But he showed his birth info now. The matter is settled, as far as I’m concerned. Truthfully, I never doubted that he was a native-born American.

  53. I believe race and religion are important considerations in evaluating a political candidate. I am white. I would have to investigate whether a non-white candidate hates white people. I am not Jewish, and I would have investigate whether a Jewish candidate hated non-Jews and put the safety of Israel above the safety of my country.
    My prefered presidential candidate is Russell Means despite his arrest record.

  54. LSP says:

    Blather is exactly correct. I don’t think anyone could have been put any better than that really.

    I too, would have been insulted to have my nationality questioned after winning the presidency. The whole thing is ridiculous and I am very disappointed in you, Dalrock, for even putting something like this up on the net. You really should delete this entire thread to try and save some shred of respectability.

    I’ve been reading this site for a bit over a month now and have generally liked it despite its right wing slant and fundamentalist christian overtones to just about everything. I’m thinking about coming back less often after reading this nonsense.

    Oh, and can you really be sure that Bin Laden is dead. Really now, there is absolutely no evidence that I have seen…… Just sayin’.

  55. Dalrock says:

    @LSP
    The whole thing is ridiculous and I am very disappointed in you, Dalrock

    I am not your child.

    The funny thing is the whole tactic of scolding, mocking and shaming anyone who discusses the issue is what will guarantee that it never goes away. Making it crimethink to ask any questions about it tends to make it appear like there is something to hide. This is especially odd since as a result of the discussion I found and posted what looks to me to be proof that the assertion in Vox Day’s post isn’t correct (the raised “Ma”). And as I mentioned in a comment recently, this same artifact would also seem to (along with Josh’s explanation of randomness in the typewriter) refute the kerning assertion.

    Happy travels on the web.

  56. Craig says:

    Just to clarify one point: a “natural born citizen” is someone who was a U.S. citizen at birth, as opposed to someone who is a citizen through naturalization. You don’t have to have American parents to be a natural born citizen: being born while physically in the U.S. is sufficient. See title 8 section 1401 of the United States Code — you can look it up online. Seriously, this is not an issue.

    (In fact, there are several other ways to be a U.S. citizen at birth, all in that same statute. If Obama were born today, he’d be a citizen at birth even if he *were* born in Kenya. But the laws about when U.S. citizens transmit citizenship to their kids born abroad have changed several times over the years.)

  57. uncleFred says:

    Dalrock asks:
    “To my untrained eye the kerned characters really do look like something other than random chance. But then there are artifacts like the elevated “Ma” which would seem to be proof of a mechanical process. Any thoughts on what might be causing the letters “Ma” to be higher than the rest of the line in the field for the hospital if this was done via a modern word processor and not a typewriter?”

    I apologize for not being clear. It is possible to manually “kern” characters on a typewriter by manually adjusting the space between two characters so that the escapement on the second is not the full width of a character. This is cumbersome and it is extremely difficult for this process to generate the precise reduction in space between each character pair. It is also difficult to get perfect vertical alignment. If you look at the spacing in each case you see that the vertical alignment and horizontal spacing of each pair is consistent. Not impossible to achieve manually, but very very difficult. Further why would anyone bother on a form that when created was unremarkable?

    I looked for what should not be as opposed to what is. The kerning that is present on the form should not be there. It is not possible to simply type in the information using the typewriter in question and produce the observed results. It is extremely improbable that manually shifting the escapement would produce the level of precision shown in each kerned pair.

    The “Ma” may be the result of a high key strike on the ‘M”, it could also be the result of other manipulation either deliberate or inadvertent. Once it seems likely that the image was altered, I do not wish to speculate on the cause of various inconsistencies.

    In my opinion we are left with the following possibilities.
    1: The image was produced from a Obama’s long form birth certificate created in 1961 and this image was later altered using computer technology.
    2: The image was produced by taking an image of a different form and then altered to its present state using computer technology.

    As I said above I believe that it is almost certain that Obama was born in Hawaii. I do not wish to speculate as to why the image was altered.

  58. PT Barnum says:

    I’m not sure it matters.

    I mean, the FACTS of the Obama don’t seem to phase people. He was born to an 18 year old woman who got pregnant by a man who already had a wife and child.. you know, bigamy. She was then abandoned by the father who pulled a runner. She then left America and married another man and Obama was raised in a foreign Muslim country. At some point, his father died in a drunken car accident. After a while, the mother decided the son was a problem to her life an dumped him on the grandparents when he was 10.

    If you aren’t phased by that, then really? Fake birth certificate? HA!

    Would you want your daughter dating a man with that history? Would you want to be business partners with a man with that history?

  59. Lovekraft says:

    Wonder if you have any comment about, during inauguration, and Justice Roberts was giving Obamma the oath.

    Roberts apparently flubbed in, thus requiring the oath to be administered later on.

    Was this on purpose? Did Roberts do this in order to engage Obama directly?

  60. flavia says:

    I didn’t have time to read everything, but Dalrock, you missed the most conclusive video on the matter. This guy orangegold downloaded the birth certificate in its PDF form and opened it with Adobe Illustrator, where you can see all the layering (layering is when you put a new version, on top of the other). He discovered seven layers, and very very bad editing. There are four parts, but the first one is convincing enough. The other 3 are a wee bit more technical but still great to watch.

  61. Ethan Blue says:

    LSP whines:

    Blather is exactly correct. I don’t think anyone could have been put any better than that really.

    I too, would have been insulted to have my nationality questioned after winning the presidency. The whole thing is ridiculous and I am very disappointed in you, Dalrock, for even putting something like this up on the net. You really should delete this entire thread to try and save some shred of respectability.

    I’ve been reading this site for a bit over a month now and have generally liked it despite its right wing slant and fundamentalist christian overtones to just about everything. I’m thinking about coming back less often after reading this nonsense.

    Is this why you stopped posting at the-spearhead you pussy? To many “right wing” articles. Not enough leftest utopia dreaming? Not enough progressive mental masturbation about 4 day work week fantasies? Did posters reject your notion that capitalism is the enemy of men?

    I kind of miss you over there. 😦

  62. Uncle Elmer says:

    A couple of things that need to be understood.

    Obama is the friggin president and will remain so until the end of his term. Pursuit of this non-issue will only help him get re-elected.

    Generally, when someone demands proof of anything, it is up to the person making the demands to actually prove it, not the other way around. If someone demands that you prove something, politely tell them to eat shit, then stall, stall, stall. Worked for the Clintons when the Whitewater lynchmob kept demanding records. When the records were finally released they revealed…nothing. Cost to U.S. taxpayers : $60M.

    Obama is playing the Birthers, such as the charlatan Franklin Graham, like a pro.

    And where were you guys when Bush wore a transmitter during the 94 Kerry debate so his handlers could feed him comebacks? Who’s the ultimate fakir?

    And this “UncleFred” commentator. I don’t like his handle. No, I don’t like it at all.

  63. Z. Moore says:

    “The best way to control the opposition is to lead it” Vladimir Lenin. Both parties are controlled by the International Bankers who have got control over most of the world now. Their goal is the imposition of world dictatorship, a Communist govt. controlling everything & everyone. The idea of bankers desiring Communist rule may seem contradictory at first, but it makes perfect sense, especially from their point of view. Communism concentrates ownership of the means of production, indeed all property really, in the hands of the state, & keeps the population under control by means of ruthless armed force. The bankers will control the Communist state from behind the scenes, just as they control the semi-socialist state that exists in this country now. The so-called “two party” system is more accurately described as a one party two branch system. The Democrats could be compared to Bolsheviks, they want full-out Communism, right now! The Republicans (by this I mean the leadership) are more like the Mensheviks were, they also, in the end, desire a Communist state, but are willing to wait & work slowly, & would perhaps not be quite so rigorous about certain aspects of socialism as their Democratic brethren. Why else is abortion still legal? If Bush the Younger had been in earnest as regards his supposed opposition to the cold-blooded murder of helpless babies, he could have stopped it easily. The same in regard to the situation with the sodomites. In Russia, if they try to have a “pride parade” the police stop them. Russia now has a better govt. in many ways than the U.S. The answer is that the Republicans will never make a real effort to put a halt to such abominations because they are an indispensable part of the process of subversion. They know who feeds them & will not put a stick thro’ the spokes of their masters’ wheel. All the same it is necessary that they make ominous noises that indicate that they may, they just MAY do something about it all, they may work in the interests of the people for once & cease furthering the agenda of those “on high”. It makes no difference that there is no chance of this actually happening, all that matters is that the people are taken in by it. The triumph of hope over experience as Dr. Johnson observed on being told of a friend’s second marriage. Throughout history the people have been used as slaves & pawns by one “elite” group or another, There is nothing new under the sun, as is written in Holy Scripture, & so it will continue until the Day of Judgement. It is still very interesting to study history & to watch events unfold, it is an excellent way to “enjoy the decline”.

  64. LSP says:

    @ Ethan,
    I’ve never posted at the Spearhead before, never, so I really don’t know what you are talking about. If you have evidence that I have, then please by all means post it.

    @ Dalrock,
    I wish you all the best, but if you think you will get anywhere pushing right wing propaganda, you are completely delusional. I’ll definitely enjoy cruising the web without your reading your conspiracy bullshit. Happy travels into oblivion.

  65. LSP says:

    One more message for Ethan:
    You’ve got a big mouth but can you back it up?

    I travel quite a bit, and would be more than happy to meet you in person so you can tell me man to man what you have to say. Just let me know where I can find you and next time I am nearby I will look you up. Or are you too chickenshit?

  66. Ethan Blue says:

    An interesting development.

    http://www.infowars.com/corsi-trump-conspired-with-obama-to-neutralize-birther-controversy/

    Corsi, the author of “Where’s the Birth Certificate?” thinks Trump is controlled opposition.

    [D: Sounds pretty nutty to me.]

  67. Kurt says:

    Oak, you are so far off on your criticism of Dalrock. It is pathetic for you to even suggest that the criticism regarding Obama’s birth certificate has anything to do with racism – was Dan Rather racist when he went after Bush with fake documents? If Obama were white and there were similar doubts about his citizenship, I am certain that the same person would still be going after him.

    Obama could have out this all to rest by releasing a single layer scan of a birth certificate. Even if he does have a true birth certificate, releasing a multi-layered .pdf version of his birth certificate makes it appear to be a forgery. It was yet another in a long line of foolish moves on the part of Obama.

  68. Kurt says:

    @LSP This wasn’t an issue with any of the previous presidents because their parents were all married and U.S. citizens and therefore all of those presidents were Natural-Born citizens even if they had been born overseas. This is something that the liberals cannot seem to grasp when criticizing the “birthers.”

    The fact of the matter is that Obama’s father was not a U.S. citizen and this is why it matters whether Obama was born on U.S. soil. If he was born overseas, he could not be a Natural Born Citizen.

  69. Oak says:

    @Kurt:
    I stand by the term ‘racist witch hunt’. Period. Now, I also don’t like the man as president. But here’s the rub. He won. Handily. By enormous margins. He passed all the tests set by the Election authorities, and became President of the United States.

    Here’s how you know it’s racist: The stated goals of the ‘sleuthing’ dont’ make any sense. Can we agree that people usually do something for a reason? If so, what exactly is the position the birthers are advocating? That he’s not really president?? He appears to clearly be president to me.

    Let’s say they are right. Let’s say, he wasn’t really born in Hawaii despite all the evidence to the contrary. So what?

    “Well, he’s supposed to be a natural born citizen to be president.”

    Uh huh. So you are implying he shouldn’t be president, not on his merits, education or positions, but rather on a technicality that makes absolutely no difference in the character of the person or the type of leader he becomes.

    I mean, everyone realizes I hope, that if there WAS a conspiracy Obama wouldn’t be aware of it. He knows where he was born because he also read the birth certificate. It’s not like he remembers being born.

    -Sites championing this psuedo-intellectual diarrhea use purposely misleading sentences, that can only be crafted by someone who knows the truth, but wishes to obscure it. Read my post above that Dalrock commented on. Even Dalrock admits they ‘have an ax to grind’. (eg. Ignores fact and reason.) To even bring up that craftily written schlock raises some disturbing questions to me.

    -These sites bring up “troubling questions” that have been asked and answered… over and over and over again.

    -Uses their ‘evidence’ to paint a picture that makes no sense at all. A 48 year old conspiracy to make Obama the president of the U.S.? What exactly do election officials, the professionals and experts in the field of birth documentation, have to gain by falsifying his citizenship BEFORE he was even elected??

    I know, I know… the birthers don’t want to be troubled by what is suggested by their
    “evidence”, because their goal isn’t really to question his citizenship.

    In fact, that doesn’t even make any sense, does it? Does ANYONE labor under the delusion that somehow they will invalidate the election and put McCain in office?

    “Sorry American people. We thought we could sneak a Kenyan into the Oval Office for some bizarre reason, but you guys were too clever for us.”

    So what exactly IS the goal of this ridiculous line of reasoning??

    It’s to imply that Obama, the first black president, isn’t REALLY an American. Don’t worry Klan Members, technically he’s not ‘really’ your president.

    If you aren’t disturbed by a black man leading the Free World, then I fail to see what anyone would find disturbing about the place of his birth. By definition, he had nothing to do with where he was born.

    It makes not one whit of difference in who Obama is, or what his policies mean for us all.

    In other words, the only VALUE these arguments hold are rooted in racism. But OK… sure… it’s just a coincidence that a national movement was spawned shortly after the election of a black president to question his ‘american-ness’. Whatever.

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