Anonymous posed the following question in the comments section of Last one down the aisle wins part 1:
Dalrock – I understand the warning to the younger women to avoid this path, and the warning to mentors/society to quit giving this advice, but for the single women in their early thirties that have previously bought into the standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career mentality (but not the sex in the city mentality) and since realized it’s a bunch of crap, what is your suggestion to them? We could use some honest advice. I realize it’s a very unenviable position, but assuming good intentions and kind demeanor, what’s the best that can be done with what we have?
I decided to respond to this in the form of a post largely because I hope to enlist my readers in this process as well. If you have any kind wisdom to share with her, please do so. By the same token, while I normally am pretty wide open on comments I don’t want to tee her up for a series of cat food jokes. As Elusive Wapiti says, comment with honor.
My first thought is she is already ahead of her peers in both how she is considering the issue and the fact that she didn’t partake in the sex in the city mentality. My sense is that the biggest challenge women tend to face in her position is the change in attraction which can come from being with men who aren’t likely to want to marry her. While eligible men may be harder to locate and attract for a woman in her 30s than they were in her 20s, I think her ability to pair bond within her own “marriage league” is the far bigger challenge.
Finding eligible men:
As many others have already said, your first challenge will be to figure out what your priorities are in a husband so you can make the best “deal” possible. A good way to do this is list what you would trade for what. Is a good job more important than height? Is a sense of humor more important than looks? How much game would you be willing to give up for some other quality. This is true for men and women of any age looking to marry, but given the amount of focus on women in their 30s in this regard I suspect there is at least a kernel of truth to the stereotype. If you have one of those famously long “must have” lists for your future husband you probably want to do some thoughtful pruning.
Marriage checklist pruning tool.
Keep in mind that this isn’t about settling, it is about getting the most bang for your SMV buck. If you can pull a man who looks like Brad Pitt, is 6 ft 6, has perfect game and earns like Bill Gates then of course you should do so.
As for where to look, in addition to the traditional methods I would be on the lookout for men who have been as focused on their careers as you have been. Depending on your field of employment you may find your best options are right in front of you. The other group of men I would consider are men younger than you and/or men who would traditionally have been marriageable in their 20s but essentially dropped out of the dating/marriage market due to lack of interest from women their own age. Dating is generally a big ego boost and a lot of fun for women in their 20s, but unless a guy is a player dating tends to be the exact opposite for men in their 20s. Some of these guys ended up playing video games in their parent’s basement, but not all have. There have to be quite a few unclaimed eligible bachelors out there whom the right woman could coax back into the game. The trick of course is how to find them. By definition they won’t be the guys at the clubs, online dating sites, or the guy who runs day game on you. But you might bump into him in any number of public spaces nonetheless. Just don’t expect him to start the conversation and generate instant attraction and comfort. If he is marriage minded and knew how to do that, he wouldn’t be single.
Attracting men:
In addition to your physical beauty, you can also make yourself more attractive to prospective husbands by your attitude. Keep in mind that you don’t have to be perfect; you just have to be better than your core competition, who are women roughly your age and of similar looks. As the old joke goes: you don’t have to beat the bear, you just have to beat the other camper. Based on what I have read from men looking for wives in their 30s or later the two key traits you can bring to the table are humility (to a degree) and a serious attitude about marriage.
Generating attraction for your prospective husband:
This seems to be the hardest part, at least for some women. Hopefully you won’t have any issue here. I think there probably are some ways a woman can tune her tastes for men even in her 30s, but I’m guessing if someone found an easy way to make large shifts here we would have already heard about it. The humility I mentioned before and a painfully honest self assessment of your SMV will probably come in handy here. Also, I suspect that following some of the old customs women and men used to follow might help some. Simple things like having him drive, order for you at a restaurant, and deferring to him in appropriate areas, etc. Basically anything which would make a good feminist cringe. But if at the end of the process you can’t fall head over heels in love with the man, my advice would be to stop there. I have a post ready to go for later this week on the same topic; it just isn’t ethical for a woman to marry a man she isn’t truly in love with and attracted to.
I hope my thoughts on this are at least somewhat helpful. The last thing I will share is even though it is more difficult in your 30s it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. My wife and I met a couple on a cruise a few years back who were newlyweds. The wife was in her early to mid 30s and the husband was in his mid 20s. He was a bit on the husky side (in an athletic way), but was extremely smart, funny, and had excellent natural game. I think they will be very happy together. Also, a number of commenters to this site have mentioned finding and marrying the love of their lives in their 30s or later. This of course is also borne out in the census stats. A significant number of women marry in their 30s and (to a lesser degree) in their 40s and beyond.
Information on chainsaw image available on wiki commons.
My advice to women in their 30s looking to settle down: Forget about Mr. Perfect, settle for Mr. Good Enough. You aren’t going to get the 35 year old lawyer with the $750,000 McMansion if you’re in your 30s, so don’t think that’s what you can get if you hold out long enough. You’re also very likely to be looking at divorced dads, so please please PLEASE vet the Ex – she can make your lives miserable without really trying.
The best advice I can give is this: who you marry is quite likely less important than what kind of wife you are going to be after you marry, so don’t get caught up in making the wrong choice. Make sure he has no prison record, has a good relationship with his family, a good job, and hopefully his own house, and you can work out the rest for the rest of your lives.
Say “Yes” to any request for a first date. Every. Single. One. Maybe not from a homeless guy, but anyone else.
That’s not a suggestion to sleep with them or enter into serious relationships with all of them. Or even to not date concurrently, as long as it’s just casual dating. My only point is that by the time you’re 30 you probably have (consciously or not) created a number of filters on the types of men you say “Yes” to. Well first impressions are important but they are also often misleading, and a man’s qualities may not become apparent until you’ve had a chance to observe him in his natural environment for a few hours. Simply pre-agreeing with yourself to say “Yes” to any request for a date is helping you get your unconscious filters out of your own way.
Will you go on a lot of lousy dates this way? Yup. But you’ll also be pleasantly surprised this way too. Men you might not date because of some quality or another (he has kids already, he’s got a weird tatoo on his arm, etc.) might surprise you with their better qualities once you get to know them a bit.
I knew of a woman who did this at 32 and she was engaged within the year, after going on a lot of bad dates. Call it the “Kiss 100 Frogs” strategy.
What many women in their 30’s don’t get is that men in and around the same age range and a little older usually become too independent to change. It’s really hard to give up our freedom and space for someone else, especially if we’ve spent a lot of it on our own. A lot of this stems from prior experiences and also dealing with women who constantly say they don’t need men. Well after so much time and putting up with the aggravation of it all, it’s just a lot easier to forget about commitments and even dating as many of us find other ways to enjoy life.
Women aren’t doing themselves any favors by sitting on the sidelines and if you want to find men, they better have something of real value to back it up with. Many of us have better platonic relationships with other men than women much less our hobbies and other interests. So to take away time from that, I’m afraid sex alone isn’t going to cut it.
I personally know of at least 20 single men including myself with no kids, never married, over 30 and under 50 that can easily be considered eligible bachelors. Why are we still single and more important, why is society producing these men? I think when women figure that part out, they just might have a chance.
A very thoughtful post Dalrock, and (I eagerly await part two) surely full of good advice, but…
I regret to say (now I think about it) I have never met a woman in her thirties who ever showed any interest in Marriage (or perhaps just in me). Worse still a woman at that age is usually married (see your stats) or divorced and if divorced may well have children and in either case is (for me – beyond pump and dump) an instant turn off. That just leaves those who have never been married. There is usually a good reason for that: Leaving aside Looks/Figure etc it will surely mean either bad attutude (towards men) or Slutdom (i.e. selfishness) and those two things are unlikely to change indeed they tend to become ingrained.
When a woman hits forty and remains single she will go Cougar (or Eat/Pray/Love ).
They are women whom life has passed by and are particularily dangerous and to be avoided.
As a rule of thumb: A man should probably marry between the ages of twenty eight and thirty five; a woman between twenty one and twenty eight. Bar bad luck (which can happen) you need to ask some very hard questions of a woman aged over twenty eight as to why she wants (if at all) to marry. By and large they don’t but as their biological clock begins to tick their Hamster will start running. Men beware!
what is this hamster thing I keep reading about? I see it all the time on these blogs can someone explain it to me? Thanks
I would say one way to think of it, Dalrock, is for people to recognize that there is a difference between their SMV and their MMV — that is, between your sexual market value and your marriage market value. They are two different things, really. Of course some of the things that go into determining one’s SMV (especially one’s overall level of attractiveness) are also components of one’s MMV, but the MMV has a lot of other things in it as well (such as the attitudes and history you’ve mentioned). A critical point, I think, is that the attractiveness component of one’s MMV is more calibrated to peer-levels than is the attractiveness component of one’s SMV, at least when it comes to women –> that is, a woman does not need to be a SMV peer of a man to generate sex appeal and success in the SMV, she merely has to be over a certain threshold for the guy. The same guy, however, when assessing a woman’s MMV, will be looking for a woman who is much closer to his own SMV. This is another way of saying that high SMV guys will have sex with and even date women with lower SMVs, but won’t marry them and will only consider marrying a woman who is their SMV peer. So a woman, when assessing her own MMV, has to take into account that the relevant aspect of her attractiveness for purposes of her MMV is not the highest SMV man she can attract for sex, but rather the highest MMV man who is in her same general SMV “banding”. And that’s a transition that, I think, can be quite hard for some women to make if they become used to dating higher SMV men than the men in their SMV peer banding. If they are totally “broken” in that way, in the sense that they simply cannot recalibrate and be attracted any longer to their SMV peers, then I think the best course is to avoid marrying, because a marriage to one of their SMV peers will likely be miserable for both people.
what is this hamster thing I keep reading about? I see it all the time on these blogs can someone explain it to me? Thanks
It refers to the “rationalization hamster” — the part of your psyche that seeks to concoct ex post justifications for your behavior so that it appears to be reasonable to yourself and others. These rationalizations have a tendency to build on each other with the result of a self-convinced view of reality that is quite at odds with objective reality. The hamster is used as a metaphor for this process — as in the mental picture of the hamster running at top speed on its hamster wheel, yet getting essentially nowhere.
Dan in Philly – ”Forget about Mr. Perfect, settle for Mr. Good Enough.”
Ah, shades of Lori Gottlieb. Not a good thing, I’m afraid.
I understand the sentiment, but the language choice truly stinks.
The idea of “settling” connotes a failure to achieve a goal, and “ Mr. Good Enough” only serve to reinforce that notion.
What is actually necessary for such women is to accept their equals. It going to require some of that ”humility” Dalrock speaks of, in admitting to themselves their own actual SMV/MMV, and concluding not that they are settling for good enough, but that they have been lucky enough to find someone their equal (and realize they could easily have done worse, but were very unlikely to have done better).
If they feel they’ve “settled”, there will continue to be many “what if..?” question for them, and an increased likelihood of marital dissatisfaction with the attenuate increase in the likelihood of infidelity.
It’s always been a source of great humor when someone posts a woman’s list of demands in a man (gleaned from a dating site, Craig’s List, etc.). Many of us have chuckled at the long list of what they wish for, often juxtaposed to their own self-revealed lack of SMV.
The use of the picture of the chainsaw was a perfect fit given the reality of what so many women will need to do to get THEIR heads straight about what a good husband entails.
slwerner said: “What is actually necessary for such women is to accept their equals.”
Take this a step further. A woman should first realize that no man is her equal; all men are above her. This is fairly easy to demonstrate if you accept Paul’s words on marriage and the sexes.
slw, the choice of language was deliberate (and indeed a reference to the link you posted) and intended to shock a woman out of her sense of superiority. They need to understand they will NOT get Mr. Perfect at this point in their lives, and that Mr. Good Enough is, indeed, good enough. For this reason, I followed the advice with the much more important part: Work on being the best wife you can be, rather than obsessing about maximizing your value in the man market.
In the long run a woman’s happiness will depend far more on her own attitude than who she chooses. Indeed, one of the problems I have with many game sites is too much focus on choosing, and not enough on what happens after the choice is made. If you look at game for guys or girls not as a prelude to a happy life, but rather as a tool to continue to use over your life, you will start to see a lot more applications than the utilitarian “Get the best man/woman possible” one.
Z: dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/10/the-rationalization-hamster-500/
Very easy steps:
1) Learn what a “beta orbiter” is.
2) Find your beta orbiters.
3) Evaluate them, and eliminate the bottom 1/3 or so as possibilities
4) Come to the realization that you now know your market value
You will probably not be able to marry a man that is equal to the most attractive man you could date – it just works that way.
Holding out for your list of must-haves is just keeping you priced out of the marriage market. Forget this nonsense about “settling”. EVERYONE SETTLES to one degree or another.
I’m not saying you should marry one of your beta orbiters, but you will get someone at that same level.
Reality check:
If you have dated too much from the alpha tree, or even if you have not, but have spent all your time under the alpha tree hoping for some fruit to fall, you JUST MIGHT have damaged your ability to have realistic expectations.
The reality on the ground for marriage minded people is very different than the lofty fantasy world of college-age dating. Your dreams WILL NOT COME TRUE – most likely because you have dreamed fantasies, not realities.
Perhaps you should refrain from seeking marriage until you reformat your expectations such that you could marry a good, average guy and actually be grateful to have him.
@monad, I’ll check that out, thanks to the other poster for the definition earlier, I thnk I see what you mean
@monad, I’ll check that out, & thanks to the other poster for the definition earlier, I think I see what you mean
Thanks for the mention, Dalrock!
As for advice, this is difficult because we don’t know much about your Anonymous commenter’s beliefs, traits, and qualities. But I think in general here are some things that may help:
1) Date with intentionality. You are screening for husbands, not out to have fun for fun’s sake. Have fun, but keep your goal in mind.
2) Let your prospective mates know this early. Although the timing and manner of your marriage-hunting disclosure must be finessed (baby rabies are scary), men who are serious about getting married as well will not be easily frightened away.
3) Perhaps I’m old school, but I think the man in general should be older than the woman. It’s just better that way. This custom feeds the natural predilections of both men (who generally want youth and fertility) and women (who generally want resources). This also means that the fellows you will be most interested in will probably be pushing 40.
4) A lot of, maybe even most, men in this age range already have children and have been through a divorce. Are you open to dating a recycle? Some of us have scars, some were divorced for a reason, others are perfectly good guys who were profoundly unlucky. Or some combination of all three. Thankfully, Mrs Wapiti was willing to put aside the baggage I brought with me (kids + an unfriendly ex), and our marriage is great!
5) Assess your own baggage (goes to the MMV that Nova was discussing above). Lots of debt? Previous divorce? Kids? Lots of sex partners?
6) Make a list of what you’re looking for in a guy. Only the top one or two should be deal-breakers. Mine were that she had to be a serious Believer, fundamentalist preferred, and want kids. Pretty much everything else was negotiable to one extent or the other.
7) Speaking of religion, if either of you will not be equally yoked, don’t go there. No missionary dating, and no missionary marriages.
8.) You touched on this already, but be nice. You would be surprised at how grumpy women are these days.
I think it’s important to be attracted to the person you marry. However, I don’t think there has to be intense levels of passion for it to work. Let’s be realistic–generally, only alphas generate intense passion in women. And even that declines with familiarity and availability. My advice to the woman in her 30s–give more men a chance, honestly assess your own desirability, and be happy with moderate or even mild chemistry. This will expand your filter, and if the man is a good match, chemistry will likely grow.
[D: Which is it; does passion and chemistry decline as you know the person better, or does it grow? And who is to blame when she later divorces the man she never really felt attraction for when she discovers that “she doesn’t love him anymore”?]
Look carefully at the company you keep. Your best friends may well be your worst enemies. If they’re hostile to beta-boyfriends, if they are bitter towards men, if they encourage you to make stupid decisions like slutting it up, if you feel like any of your life decisions need their approval… get rid of them. Find new friends, or even just tell them you need time to “find yourself,” by which you mean “get in touch with the good sense that you need to find a decent man.”
I’m only in my mid-twenties, but I’ve seen it in girls as young as 12 and as old as 40, they always have a circle of hens who make it their life’s mission to see that no other woman ever makes an independent decision, no matter the cost.
If you are fortunate enough to have real, supportive, well-grounded female friends, keep them close and ask them to help you stay on the straight and narrow. If you have the clucking hens, ditch them by any means necessary.
Also, Jack’s comment:
1) Learn what a “beta orbiter” is.
2) Find your beta orbiters.
3) Evaluate them, and eliminate the bottom 1/3 or so as possibilities
4) Come to the realization that you now know your market value
This is solid gold.
Wapiti nails what I wanted to say; make sure you at least take a look around one’s own church (synagogue, whatever) and other organizations in your faith first. I know “missionary marriages” that have worked, but they’re far outnumbered by those that did not.
Along the lines of “be nice,” women (and men for that matter) need to remember basics of looking good; posture, exercise and sleep, and for goodness’ sake, SMILE from time to time.
On another practical view, make sure you’re getting to know the PERSON beneath that skin. When my wife and I married, a friend of hers expressed some surprise that our first time together was indeed on our wedding night–evidently most of her other friends, yes church friends, were milking the cow before it was in the barn, so to speak, and sadly reaped the consequences of that.
A bit of dignity and self-respect do a LOT for “SMV” and “MMV,” to put it mildly.
Let me throw in my two cents. I know a little about this. Mrs. Detinennui32 was 30 when I met her, 32 when we married and in the same position as Dalrock’s commenter.
1. Some women (not the commenter seeking advice) were on the alpha carousel. They either got tired and realized it was a waste of time, got burned, or hit the wall. I’ve known all three types. It’s time to get off the carousel and discard the carousel mentality (I’m special, I’m The One, I deserve an alpha 10 every time, I deserve to have him and keep him, I have a right to be a slut and not be judged for it). Again, this doesn’t apply to our commenter.
2. It bears repeating: be brutally honest about your SMV and your MMV. Both values have probably declined because you’re not as young or as good looking as you were when you were prime marriage material in your early 20s. You’re just not. Dl everything you can to improve your physical appearance. Whether we like it or not, men still look at physical appearance. It’s not fair. But that’s the way it is. Grerp had a couple of posts on this. One was called “Take a Good Hard Look in the Mirror” or something similar. Grerp.blogspot.com.
3. Identify what you bring to the table. Dalrock said in the past that to demonstrate her marriage value, a woman needs to bring something special to the bargaining table. What do you have to offer? Certain skills? Career going well? Like kids? Want to be a SAHM? Identify what you have to offer a man and make it known.
4. Be pleasant to be around. Be nice. You don’t have to be obsequious. Just be pleasant company. Eliminate profanity from your discourse. Eliminate sarcasm, cynicism, bitterness and jadedness as much as you can. Those are some of the most unattractive human traits but are doubly unattractive when women display them. Try to keep a positive outlook on this exercise. Be willing to subordinate yourself somewhat. Men need running room to chase a little.
5. In your own mind, be singularly focused on your goal. Your goal is to find a good husband. Not a husband — a GOOD husband, the best you can do with what you have. If you can tell a man is not marriage material, or he’s got a “dealbreaker” personality trait, or you’re not the least bit attracted, or something’s just not right, end it immediately and don’t go out with him again. And tell him why. At the risk of sounding too blunt, you don’t really have any more time to waste.
6. Dan in Philly is right. You’re probably not going to get everything you want. But you can get most of it – and you will get everything you need. Whittle that 463 bullet point checklist down to dealbreakers. I think my wife’s list was something like “has a job, doesn’t smell bad, can problem solve, and wants kids.”
7. Don’t look or act desperate.
I don’t know which is the most difficult for a woman in her thirties: Finding a reasonably quality guy who is still unjaded and want to start a family or improving herself and her attitude to be able to attract and be attracted to a reasonably quality guy with scars/baggage and convince him that you will be different from the woman or women who gave him the scars/baggage, so he wants to remarry (quite difficult) and even have children with you (really difficult)?
But some women in their thirties have had the ability/luck necessary.
A friend in his early forties divorced his much younger wife (no kids) and met a woman in her late thirties who he now has a child with. And a divorced early forties father whose daughter is friends with my daughter is together with a woman in her early thirties who is now pregnant. Another friend was a rather committed bachelor until his mid forties when he met a very attractive and pleasant woman in her early thirties, maybe even late twenties.
But most divorced guys with children do not want to risk going through a divorce again especially with children and will want to play the field, if they can, and/or use their extra time and money (if the divorce is not too straining financially) for himself (and his children) and will only change their mind if they get a really sugar coated deal.
Maybe waiting to remarry a childless woman or a woman with grown children when the woman is in her late thirties/early forties and he is in his late forties/early fifties.
If a woman in her thirties is not wanting children, her options will be much better.
Respect goes a long way. Men are tired of the misandry, both overt and subtle, that gets pushed in their faces. Men know they’re not perfect, but are tired of constantly being scolded and belittled. Women demand respect, so do men – or at least they should.
Plus, even if you make yourself more attractive as a potential partner, there’s still the problem of divorce laws and Family Court that men are afraid of. Until this issue is fixed, men are still going to be unwilling to make a commitment. Are you expecting him to trust in your goodwill that you’re never going to divorce for any reason?
I’m tempted to say : “Why bother?”.
At 30+, the better part of your life is behind you. If you have been able to make it so far being single and childfree, why would you suddenly want to settle?
You made is so far without commitment: why would you want to scrap your life now?
At 30+, men and women are set in their ways: that’s why marriage and kids are such a heavy burden.
Not worth it, really.
I’m only in my mid-twenties, but I’ve seen it in girls as young as 12 and as old as 40, they always have a circle of hens who make it their life’s mission to see that no other woman ever makes an independent decision, no matter the cost.
I think that this is in the nature of most women, in general — not having bad friends, but needing the support of a circle of friends to feel “right”. By and large “social” anything is far more important to women than to men. In the context of relationships, most women, even introverted ones, need/want a circle of friends as support. For all the talk about wanting to be independent, in my own experience, women are generally speaking much more dependent on others when it comes to decisionmaking than men are, by and large.
The key, therefore, is for women to find *good* friends — women who share their values and will support them in an appropriate way, rather than women who will be peddling pop culture values and Cosmo and enforcing them in the social peer group.
For a man, it follows that it’s of absolutely critical importance that you vet a woman’s friends before you marry her. Not because she’ll always have the same set of friends, but it’s instructive as to the *kinds * of women she tends to befriend or allow herself to be befriended by. It’s critical, because these are the women who will be having a substantial impact on your wife and her decisionmaking, most often when it comes to … you. More influence in many cases than her family members. So it behooves men to vet the friends in terms of the types of women they are, the lives they lead, and what their values are, as a critical part of evaluating any woman’s suitability for marriage. Remember, divorce tends to run through groups of women friends like the flu.
[D: Which is it; does passion and chemistry decline as you know the person better, or does it grow? And who is to blame when she later divorces the man she never really felt attraction for when she discovers that “she doesn’t love him anymore”?]
In my experience, chemistry with an alpha can be intense and immediate–however, it can subside as the man becomes familiar. I’ve never felt immediate chemistry with a beta, however, if there’s some attraction and we connect on many levels, it grows.
Look, I know divorce is a real risk–one of the reasons I married as late as I did was to ensure I made a good choice and didn’t end up like my parents. So yes, men should be wary and make sure they marry someone who seems like she will stick with her vows.
But is intense passion really what holds a marriage together? That’s a flimsy foundation. If there is an adequate level of attraction, combined with a deep friendship, shared values, and a determination to honor vows, that seems like a much more solid bet. Probably the riskiest women to marry are those who’ve never dated an alpha at all–these might be more likely to idealize them and think they can capture one if they try hard enough.
My advice to her would be to join a convent or find an all-engrossing hobby.
The alternative is years spent picking over the carbonized ruins of a post-feminist landscape of emasculated young androgynes, empowered divorced men with no intention of re-yoking themselves to the plow, or PUAs who secretly keep score with each other to see who beds the most young, willing women before moving on to the next. After a few years, lonely married men may even be in the mix – there are a lot of them.
You are better off not knowing what you will find if you go down this path too long.
At 30, she is better off focusing on her career and steeling herself for the inevitable stage of life that all people face in their 40s and 50s: a hospice for dying dreams, overall a much sadder place for the empowered, entitled women of today than it was for stronger women of a generation ago.
Saepe ne utile quidem est scire quid futurum sit.
1. Your husband comes first in the family, not the children. It is through the husband/father a healthy family will succeed and your children will be best served. Don’t “demand” children and start acting like you have baby rabies. Men your age will simply see a “sperm wanted” sign and run the other way.
2. Make yourself aware that your husband is just as sentient and alive as you are. He is not an “object” to “have” like many women want “children” like they do “drapes.”
3. Your job is to make him happy. It should not be a chore to make him happy. You should want to do it.
4. Stay thin and attractive. So sorry, but dats the facts of life.
My advice is to consider the demographic factors of your community that make men more likely to marry. In my opinion, what makes men more likely to marry is:
1) Religious values
2) Living in a community where the sex ratio is not skewed in their favor. Men of a certain age and certain status in New York City, for instance, are widely outnumbered by women who want to marry them. They have little incentive therefore to marry one of them. They will act like jerks — because they can.
3) Cost of living. A man who cannot afford to support children will make less effort to signal his willingness to marry. He’s shadow inventory.
If the demographics are not in your favor, consider moving.
Agree with Brendan’s distinction between SMV and MMV.
I can recall two unmarried women in their 30s who married great guys ………both to same-aged, divorced men with children. One she met in a bar/pool hall on vacation, and the other in the workplace (hospital).
agree with Julie’s comments that intense sexual attraction does not hold a marriage together.
>> have previously bought into the standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career mentality (but not the sex in the city mentality) and since realized it’s a bunch of crap >>
Do you know what marriage entails?
Lots of people can get married, but far too many don’t remain that way.
Do you and your potential husband have realistic expectations?
If not, you’ll be back to square one believing that what you were fed was all “a bunch of crap.”
Realize that whatever you’re advised to do to attract someone will be expected of you to keep him and that makes a lot of people resentful.
For instance, you’ll have to be willing to put in the effort to keep yourself in good physical form/dress appealing even after kids and aging? It’ll take more effort than it takes you now, are you willing?
As she picks over the smoking, bleached bones in the American dating landscape of the 30+ woman, she needs to understand the following:
1. Barren Landscape: You are in a desert. The stagnant muddy pool you come across in a few months may be your only hope of salvation. That is, if you never make it out of the desert.
2. Scratched and Dented: Pick over everything you come across. The goal here is to complete your mission, not endlessly ponder what might have been.
3. Know Thine Enemy: Keep in mind that if you do find someone who makes you happy, your female crone-companions will do everything they can to sabotage your relationship. After all, who would they have to socialize with if all their fellow spinster-crones got hitched? Understand their petty rage and jealousy and be aware of its power.
Happy dating!
@Demirogue:
Do single middle aged men like yourself want to get married and start a family? I understand not everyone wants to have children; it’s just I can’t imagine an adult voluntarily staying single. That sounds like an awfully lonely lifestyle choice.
You mentioned your platonic male friends and hobbies; so what you’re saying is middle aged women just use guys for sex and don’t make any connections? “Go ski with your friends, I don’t need you! I’ll go do my own thing!” Like, women don’t want to even consider getting involved in your life?
…You know what’s weird? I’ve noticed that with many older mothers with young children. They refuse to alter their lifestyle to accommodate their new families. Like, I know a woman that went on a week long spa trip by herself and she left her children with her spouse. Her children are young and her spouse has a full time job. Instead of thinking “awh, good for you, you deserve it!” I just thought she was being selfish.
Hm, maybe selfish women are the ones that are single at 35? That would explain why they have trouble finding a spouse and getting married.
A few things:
1.) One of your problems will be that the men who would otherwise be interested in marrying you aren’t as romantic as they once were. Even if they’re not plugged into the MRM, many men in their thirties will have the vague sense that something is wrong with the marriage market. It is also a fact that men become less woman-obsessed (though never uninterested, I think) as they age. So you’ll need to be able to make the case (implicitly, and to the right guy) that marrying you will make his life better. Of course, some men (i.e., me) just won’t marry in the US period, but you can usually sniff these guys out pretty fast; they say things like “I won’t marry in the US, period.”
2.) Be physically attractive. Three parts to this. First, you gotta be a reasonable weight. IMO the cutoff is somewhere around size 10 or 12; above that and if you don’t drop some pounds nothing else will much help your attractiveness, there or below and you can probably carry it off, though thinner is (generally) better. Second, be in reasonable shape — not flabby, but the triathlete look is probably overdoing it. Third, spend some time around foreign women. Do what they do. There’s a reason men rave about B-girls even though they aren’t (IMO) terribly cute.
3.) Most of what you’ve spent your life doing is unfeminine. (The “standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career stuff”.) Harsh but true. Marriage is all about being feminine. (Errr … for a woman.) Much as you’d craft a resume when looking to change fields by downplaying/minimizing all the irrelevant stuff, and playing up the skills the employer wants, it’s best to forget all the career-gal stuff as far as looking for a husband. To most guys it’s an irrelevancy, to some guys its a negative. (“If she’s so into her career, will she be able to be a good wife and mother?”) Men aren’t looking for providers, so career-centrism isn’t attractive. Having a career is fine, just don’t give the impression that it’s Who You Are and What You Offer.
There are two types of things you can do. Increase market value, and use the market value you have more effectively.
Increasing value (in order of importance):
1a. Weight and fitness. I don’t want to set off any anorexia “triggers”, but there are few women in their 30s who would not be more attractive if the lost a few pounds, and gained a little muscle tone, just to firm up their features and curves. Exercise will also give you clearer skin. Men are visual creatures first and foremost. Go from a pleasant figure to an attractive one, from an attractive one to a stunning one. (As for cosmetic surgery – from my own encounters, I would say its a risky investment with unpredictable results.)
1b. Demeanor. If your goal is marriage, this is just as important. Most singles accumulate habits, pet-peeves, and become proud of various things. There is a loss of perspective as you become older, less accommodating, less patient, and more ego-centric. De-program yourself. Be a more cheerful, optimistic, patient, forgiving, less-opinionated, less-demanding person. Swallow your pride and figure out what things you can compromise on, or live without. In short, be a more traditional, more feminine person. And don’t kid yourself – find the nicest married woman you know, the one everyone adores, and measure yourself against her.
2. Domestic skill. Not much to say here…cooking and cleaning. Men value it, and they value getting those services from a woman who loves them. If you want to buy food and hire a maid, he doesn’t need to get married to have that.
3. Long hair. Seriously. Lustrous long hair is a marker of health and youth. It should be well-maintained.
4. Clothing and cosmetics. Not that important. Just look put-together, and make an effort to look good, every day. I’d say about half of single women don’t have this problem, and may in fact spend too much time, creating an impression of shallowness and high-maintenance. Other than actually improving your appearance, what attention to clothing and cosmetics does is signal your willingness to spend some time and money to be attractive to men. But don’t go overboard. The details will be wasted on men.
5. Competency in modern life tasks. Being a single, in your 30s, and still alive, you have sufficiently demonstrated your ability at the mechanics of modern life. Being better at these things may marginally improve your value, but I think most men are for women to simply meet some competency threshold.
Using your market value effectively (in no order):
1. Everything Dalrock mentions. Prune your checklist, evaluate priorities. Bald, short, divorced – how important are these negatives to you?
2. Discuss fertility. A marriage-minded man who wants children will have fertility questions depending on which end of your 30s you are on. Be honest and discuss this at an appropriate time. If he’s not an asshole, he will probably not touch this topic, because it is obviously a very intimate and emotional one for women. You’ll have to bring it up.
3. Accurately assess your market value, using the beta-orbiter method mentioned above.
4. Risk embarrassment. While it is certainly true, at least to me, that shyness and coy behavior are attractive feminine traits, you may not want to bide your time. The optimum level of coy vs. aggressive behavior is different for a 22yo vs. a 30+yo. Be willing to sacrifice some of your pride just to generate more encounters with romantic-potential. Decide yourself where that balance is.
5. Decide whether you want children or not. I personally believe that a huge part of female happiness is being a mother. Do not deny yourself that if it is important to you. You will simply have to sacrifice something else. On the other hand, if having children is not important, your options are more open.
Lots of good comments. I’ll add just a couple of them.
First, by now you have to see that you are going to have to work at this. I always hear people talk about how finding a job when you are unemployed is a job. It’s not a one hour a day thing. You have to put the work in. Same here. And forget about the rejection because any husband (job) hunt will have it. Just view it as getting you closer to the best fit.
The second part is an add on to all the suggestions that you exercise, eat right, develop a pleasing demeanor and on and on. Sure, you should do all of that. Just like you should assess your strengths when looking for a job and work on your weaknesses. But do these things for you first and foremost. If, in the end, you are still alone you at least have improved yourself. Not a bad thing.
Just don’t sell some guy a bill of goods. Don’t present yourself as this pleasant, fit, exercise loving, careful with money, commitment focused, vow serious, loves kids gal who makes love like there is no tomorrow and then revert back to the exact opposite once you close the deal. I cannot think of anything more soul crushing to a man and a relationship to find out that it was all an act. Especially if the guy you married is all of those things.
If you can’t or don’t want to do the work for yourself first then don’t bother and certainly don’t get married.
I’d like to clarify something. All this advice to women about being pleasant is good and true. All men want this. But there is more that needs to be understood. Alphas know how to deal with a woman’s emotionality but Betas often do not.
A woman will be emotional at times. Negative emotions are a fact of life. Just don’t take them out on a man. You can have all of them and express them. Make sure you tell the man that you will be emotional and that he should just listen (or pretend to) and that he should not offer any advice or solutions unless he first says “I know how you feel.” It is a mistake for a woman to stifle emotions because it is impossible. An emotional outburst will eventually happen and then watch out. Many men do not know how to handle it when a woman gets emotional so give him some tips on how he can navigate your emotionality.
Such things could drive a man away if he had a very bad past experience or has no clue that about a woman’s emotional reality. Another tip is to tell him that when he has heard enough, to just give you a hug and say, “Hey Babe, It’s going to be alright. We will make it through this.” These two bits of advice work like magic, even if she knows that he is following a script. The reaction is de-escalation and it is hard wired in women.
Also laugh at his jokes and encourage him to tease you a bit so you can both laugh.
Dalrock – Thanks so much for taking the time to post on the topic, I really appreciate it. The input from you and everyone who has commented is so helpful, and it’s advice nobody else is giving. If you don’t mind, I have a couple of follow up questions if anyone has any input/insight on them, I’d love to hear it…
1. re: “serious attitude about marriage”/ “but as their biological clock begins to tick … beware!” – As a 30 something I’m always concerned about not coming across as “husband shopping”. I wouldn’t want to make someone I care about feel like he was just a placeholder to fit into some predefined plan. How do you communicate your sincere interest in marriage without accidentally making him feel like anyone will do?
2. re: “a painfully honest self-assessment of your SMV” / “the highest MMV man who is in her same general SMV ‘banding’” – I know women are notoriously unable to assess their own SMV (e.g. http://haleyshalo.wordpress.com/2010/10/27/why-women-overrate-their-looks), and I think probably even more unable to assess their MMV since I guess it’s generally SMV adjusted for other factors. It’s like a blind spot for women (and it’s a bit of a circular reference to say your MMV is determined by who you can get to commit to LTR/marriage, and you figure out who will consider you LTR/marriage material based on your MMV). Since it is so important, what’s the best way to figure out about where your MMV “band” is? Painful is okay, I just need to know what I have to work with.
I’m 32 and I’ve been dating someone I’m crazy about for 9 months. I hate the pressure of this, but at 32 he doesn’t have very long to decide about getting married (maybe another year max) before I’m too close to the 35 year old cutoff for kids. Which means, if I wait to see how it goes with him and it doesn’t work out, I’ll have placed myself out of having kids. I’ve gently brought up the subject here and there, and he seems sensitive to understanding the age issue for women (he wants kids for sure and is against having them with a woman over 35), he’s been encouraging about the relationship and consistently invests a lot emotionally (we attend church together etc.)… but that’s not actually a commitment, and it feels wrong to put a man on the spot and give him an ultimatum about marriage. To make matters worse, he’s 36, easily a 9 (depending on how important a lot of money is, to me it isn’t that important), and is marriage/family minded (not the player or overly alpha type). So I feel like, in theory, I’m competing with like everyone (even though he isn’t seeing anyone else). How do I figure out what my best move is? Wait to see how it plays out with someone I’m crazy about but is possibly a more risky bet because of his high value, or decide I’m out of time and try to find someone I can be happy with that’s maybe “safer”? I hate to be a chicken and bail on someone that really matters to me, but I’d also hate to ignore the reality of a situation and make a stupid decision.
To Anon-RTPTQ:
With respect to #1: Your sincere interest in marriage will be self-evident. If you’re serious about getting married, your behavior and dress will be different from the party girl or the career-uber-alles woman. Your dates will be auditions to be his wife and the mother of his children.
I wouldn’t worry too much about scaring guys away – you probably don’t want to waste time with men who are scared of marriage-seeking women anyways. As for worrying about making him feel like a placeholder, your other behavior will determine that. Are you loud and controlling? Are you insistent about doing things your way? Work on those things. Verbalize your willingness to be flexible about your future plans, but your actions will speak louder than works.
In short, don’t worry about hiding your desire to get married. It’s a useful screening mechanism. But work on your personality and demeanor, and try to compromise and surrender control to your date, who, after all, may be your future husband.
WRT question #2: The beta-orbiter method. Just search this page for the words “beta-orbiter”. Another honest (although unreliable) signal is to look at the caliber of people you get during blind dates. These are the people others think are in your league.
I would seriously reconsider getting married at all.
Being a wife is EXTREMELY hard work and is really only personally satisfying a fraction of the time.
When you get married you are basically volunteering a man to be your boss. He rules you…when he wants sex you put out even if you are tired or angry. If you gain weight you make it the highest priority to lose it. If your husband says you need to move to the arctic tundra you move to the arctic tundra. When you are single if you dont’ feel like cooking you eat cereal. Do you think a man is going to put up with eating cereal for dinner? No. Way.
Then you add kids and other responsibilities and nothing changes..you are still a wife first. No matter how exhausted you are your wifely responsibilities come first. There will be days when you think “why the hell did I sign up for this?”
In the manosphere you will hear how marriage sucks for men. They are right, and the only thing that makes it wortwhile for them is if the wife is a VERY GOOD wife…but guess what…being a VERY GOOD wife is sometimes extremely difficult and extremely sucky…
There is no time-off from being a wife. There are no sick days. There is no more “having it your way”… If you want to be a wife and you expect to be a good wife then carefully consider the cost. If you aren’t up for it then don’t do it.
The beta orbiters method is an interesting idea, but I think it has a serious flaw. While the typical critique of women in their 30s and beyond is having a list a mile long, I think they also tend to forget to consider the man’s game. It is basically a given in their minds.
But it isn’t a given. Not all men have the same level of game. Beta orbiters are an excellent case in point. If they had game, they wouldn’t be beta orbiters. I think women often look at guys like that and assume he is roughly interchangeable with a guy just like him but who has game. But they aren’t even in the same class.
Butterfly Flower:
Do single middle aged men like yourself want to get married and start a family? I understand not everyone wants to have children; it’s just I can’t imagine an adult voluntarily staying single. That sounds like an awfully lonely lifestyle choice.
I suggest you find the book “For Women Only” by Shaunti Feldhahn. You will learn things about men that will astound you, such as the fact that if men are forced to choose between being loved or being respected, most will choose the latter.
Women emotionally have a need to be loved, men need to be respected. Modern women often have a great deal of contempt for men (it’s intrinsic to most varieties of feminism) and it shows in various ways. Men don’t want to be around that sort of thing, and they avoid women who are contemptuous. In some parts of the world, that means pretty much avoiding most women under 60.
it’s a bit of a circular reference to say your MMV is determined by who you can get to commit to LTR/marriage, and you figure out who will consider you LTR/marriage material based on your MMV). Since it is so important, what’s the best way to figure out about where your MMV “band” is?
There is no fool-proof way, I think. Beta orbiters are a good indication of the kinds of men who are interested in you, likely for more than just easy sex. That’s one indicator. I think, however, it probably has more to do with trial and error in terms of dating guys, being up-front about being interested in something for the long-term and eventually getting married, and seeing how they react. This screens out guys who are not interested in marriage, of course, but it also screens out guys who might be interested in dating and having sex with you, but see you as below the MMV threshold. It’s understandable that this can seem awkward, but as others have pointed out, in today’s dating world where casual sex has kind of become the norm, it’s critical to beak that pattern by making it fairly clear early on in a firm but polite way that you are really only interested in long-term arrangements — it screens a good deal of the men for whom you are over the sex threshold but not at the MMV threshold, and actively selects for the men who are the converse.
Anon/posted question:
Let me try answering 2 first. (a) In addition to your own honest assessment, ask a man who you trust what he thinks of your MMV using the criteria below. It needs to be someone you have no interest in as a suitor. Perhaps it could be your brother. Don’t ask a gay man. Don’t ask a woman, not even your closest female friends. Never ask a woman to assess your SMV or MMV.
(b) let me suggest a formula.
If SMV= youth + physical appearance, then consider that a reasonable formula for MMV is probably (in order of importance):
MMV= SMV + C+ D + LS – SP
where C = commitment level (how serious you are about getting and staying married)
D = demeanor and personality
LS = life skills and competencies (how capable you are at handling what life throws at you)
SP = number of prior sexual partners
SMV is paramount. Keep in mind your SMV now is lower than it was 10 years ago. Your appearance and relative youth get you in the door. SMV is still most important because it’s the first thing we see. Some women work on their appearance despite getting to their late 20s and early 30s. Women must offset age with appearance improvement (weight management, dress and makeup; NOT plastic surgery or complete wardrobe makeovers). Most women, if they work at it, can still be very attractive at 30 as long as they (1) keep their weight down reasonably and (2) learn tasteful application of cosmetics without overdoing it or trying to look like a 20 year old tart.
C and D are most important, followed by LS. SP is least important at this stage of the game. Prior sexual partners are a negative for a man looking to marry at any age, for obvious reasons. It will come up. Be prepared to deal with it. Honesty is the best policy.
Now for number 1: I think honesty is best here too. Let a man know you believe in marriage. This will require some finesse, or “girl game.” You might say something like “I believe marriage is a good thing. What do you think about it?” You’re probing what the man thinks and finding out his plan, not just talking about what your “plan” is. You might also ask him about what his plans are. Remember that you’re interviewing a potential husband, but there’s no subterfuge going on here, not really. This has to be a sincerely held belief or it won’t work and will come off quite mechanical.
For more on girl game, check out Athol Kay’s site at marriedmansexlife.com or Susan Walsh at Hooking Up Smart (someone help me on the address). They are the Manosphere’s foremost authorities on girl game.
Second, I think many men will deduce on their own that you’re interested in marriage if you’re entering the serious dating scene in your 30s.
Third, consider that “girl game” on marriage is going to weed out PUAs and players, and those men who are either gunshy or just aren’t in this looking for a wife. You even mention marriage and don’t get a straight answer or you get blown off, you’ve got a player or someone who’s never going to walk the aisle.
Fourth, don’t come on too strong about it, at least not at first. Don’t even say the word “marriage” or any form thereof until a few dates in, I suggest. You might scare the hell out of an otherwise great guy, and you will appear desperate.
As for getting a man:
Simple. Go to a comicon convention dressed as Wonder Woman.
Plenty of men enjoy the comfort phase of a relationship and allow it to stagnate. This is most evident with alpha LTR’s and beta boyfriends who simply don’t think about proposing.
Your move here is to make clear that your prerogative is marriage. The fact is, you cannot count on him asking for marriage within your time frame. Ask him point blank if he is interested in you as a marriage partner. If so, ask him what qualities you need to show to gain enough value to make a marriage happen for him. Do not sleep with him on a regular basis before marriage. Plenty of greater beta players are able to play the 30 something crowd for sex while running for commitment.
I can’t help laughing at the idea posited above that a 35-year-old lawyer is some great catch for a woman. I guess I’m surrounded by too many schlubby lawyers (myself included). Anyway, the best way to snag yourself a lawyer (although why you’d want to is beyond me) is to go to law school and enter the legal profession. All the lawyers I know married between ages 28 and 32, usually to people the same age, and usually to fellow lawyers.
@ Paige at 5:16:
“Being a wife is EXTREMELY hard work and is really only personally satisfying a fraction of the time.”
Let’s ask our intrepid anonymous commenter how personally satisfying her life is now, as a single woman in her 30s. If it’s so stupendouly joyous all the time, why is she here, in the manosphere, asking men what she should do to get one of us to marry her? Why does she feel something’s missing? What is she looking for? Companionship and a helpmate, I suspect. My wife says being a wife is extremely hard work, but it has immeasurably enhanced her life. Maybe Anon has seen it your way, Paige, and has decided she wants to take a chance on something better.
“When you get married you are basically volunteering a man to be your boss. He rules you…when he wants sex you put out even if you are tired or angry. If you gain weight you make it the highest priority to lose it. If your husband says you need to move to the arctic tundra you move to the arctic tundra. When you are single if you dont’ feel like cooking you eat cereal. Do you think a man is going to put up with eating cereal for dinner? No. Way.”
–This is ridiculous hyperbole. No 21st century woman with an IQ over 70 would do any of this or put up with any of this (except maybe for the weight thing, but most women I know who feel pressure about weight get that pressure from other women, the culture and the media).
“When he wants sex you put out even when you’re tired or angry” What are you talking about? You’re not describing any woman, married or single, born in the United States since 1940.
“When you are single if you dont’ feel like cooking you eat cereal. Do you think a man is going to put up with eating cereal for dinner? No. Way.”
—Are you serious? Come on, Paige. No married man I’ve ever known – even the most clueless and caddish – treats their wives this way. If they did, they would not be married for long.
“In the manosphere you will hear how marriage sucks for men. They are right, and the only thing that makes it wortwhile for them is if the wife is a VERY GOOD wife…but guess what…being a VERY GOOD wife is sometimes extremely difficult and extremely sucky… ”
—Paige has a false dichotomy problem. To her. marriage is one long sloggy drudgery after another in which the husband is a crass, unemployed, knuckle dragging neanderthal with a seventh grade education, a wife-beater T-shirt barely concealing a beer gut, and three days of facial hair growth shouting “Go fetch me a turkey pot pie, wench!” But she also wants married life to be something it will never be: all magic pixie dust, milk and honey, money growing on trees, and endless orgasms. Life, either married or single, isn’t that way. Married life isn’t endless sex, but it’s not endless prison or torture either.
At least if you’re married, you have someone to share all that with. You commit to do everything you can to make your life better for yourself and your spouse. Sometimes you succeed. Sometimes you fail. Sometimes you hurt each other. Sometimes you laugh together. Sometimes you cry together. Sometimes I am the knuckle dragger. Sometimes I’m the knight in shining armor. Most days I’m just detinennui32, doing my best to hold up my end of the bargain by working and making the money. And I love it. Sometimes Mrs. D. is a raging wench. Sometimes she’s a beautiful courtesan. Most days she’s just Mrs. D., holding up her end of the bargain by doing her best to care for our kids and our home. And she loves it.
Most wives are good wives, most of the time. Sometimes they are very good, sometimes they are crappy. Most husbands are good husbands, most of the time. Sometimes they are very good, sometimes they’re crappy. I’ve been very good, good and crappy. My wife’s been very good, good and crappy. That’s life.
“There is no time-off from being a wife. There are no sick days. There is no more “having it your way”… If you want to be a wife and you expect to be a good wife then carefully consider the cost. If you aren’t up for it then don’t do it.”
Husbands get no time off either, nor do we get sick days. We don’t “get it our way” either. Come on Paige. Are you serious?
Anonymous–
I agree with most of what Dalrock said. However not about dismissing dating web sites. I’ve never used one but know people IRL and online who have. I think lots of early and mid thirties women do find marriage partners that way.
Maybe not all husbands are demanding, but you shouldn’t go into marriage unless you are prepared for the realities I listed and are willing to accept them.
Also, I want to highlight Paige’s comment at 5:16. The problem with all this traditionalist advice to women in their 30s about how to snag a man — by deferring and letting him take the lead, etc. — is that it begs the question of why on earth would a woman want a man on those terms?
I think the better advice is to learn how to be kind and generous to your partner without being deferential. A man who wants deference from his partner is going to be a problem for his woman in the long run.
Ceer makes a great point. Our commenter needs to look out for PUAs and players, mostly lesser alphas and greater betas. The female “low hanging fruit”, to wit:
1. women 30 and over, esp. recent divorcees or never marrieds
2. single moms
3. ahem, generously proportioned women.
Unfortunately, the above are prime pump & dump candidates. I’d suggest Anon eschew sex for a while and find out how serious her dates are about marriage, either directly or with some game.
Anonymous–
What waiting so long to find your marriage mate has done is not make it impossible to get married, but somewhat lowered the SMV and following Brendan MMV man you can attract.
I agree with Dalrock that your realistic self assessment is a great asset here for you. The girls who can’t find the right guy to want to marry them when they’re in their early and mid thirties are girls who expect to catch the same level of hotness guy for a marriage commitment that would have casual and fling sex with them. You sound like you’ve not done much alpha cock carouselling, so that should leave you less jaded.
Also, women who are game aware actually can help their man have more alpha emotional/sexual hotness. Dalrock made some good suggestions here — the default is he drives, you encourage and reward his leadership, you defer to him when you can, and has he quite insightfully said, you do pretty much everything vis a vis him (not your own career etc.) that would piss a strongly feminist woman off.
I guess I’m surrounded by too many schlubby lawyers (myself included).
I agree. I would never marry another lawyer. My lawyer colleagues are good for cynical jokes, but I honestly couldn’t imagine being married to one of them. The law requires toughness and hardens women — not attractive.
All the lawyers I know married between ages 28 and 32, usually to people the same age, and usually to fellow lawyers.
Could be a weird sample, or it could be the local market here in DC, but a good 20% or so of the women lawyers in my corporate law dept are 30+ and umarried (compared to around 10% of the men in this age group). None of the ones who *are* married are married to other lawyers, either. Again, could be an odd grouping I guess.
Doomed Harlot–
Dysfunctional feminist advice.
I require a degree of deference from any woman I’m serious about, and I get it. A degree.
Doug1, You must be very handsome!
Doomed Harlot Poseur:
Also, I want to highlight Paige’s comment at 5:16. The problem with all this traditionalist advice to women in their 30s about how to snag a man — by deferring and letting him take the lead, etc. — is that it begs the question of why on earth would a woman want a man on those terms?
Well, the anonymous comment was posted on a site known to be both friendly to women and culturally conservative. So it should hardly be a surprise that she is getting responses that are in line with certain philosophical positions, although that clearly rankles you.
Perhaps she’s also posted similar requests for advice elsewhere, and is going to compare the results? Perhaps she herself is culturally conservative and wishes advice from people like herself? Perhaps it’s all just an experiment for a psychology class? I don’t know, and neither do you. But not being a feminist, I have sufficient humility to simply address the questions asked, rather than try to bully her into some kind of position more to my liking. Perhaps you could try that too, some time?
I’m going to second the issue of geography. It’s trite but true in real estate to cry “Location, Location, Location”, but it is very true in the world of relations between men and women. I don’t know the anonymous woman’s location and it’s not my business.
However, were any woman who worked in the Northern Virginia / DC / PG County area, or the NYC metro area, to ask the questions she has asked, I’d suggest right up front trying to find a way to move. If a transfer is possible, look for it. If a lateral job shift is possible, go for it. I know, in the current economy, that moving jobs is not easy. But the odds are simply against a woman in her 30’s in areas where the ratio of single women to single men is as high as it is in places like NYC. It is not a coincidence that Roissy is in the DC area, in my opinion. Getting off of the coastal plains will put her into areas where more men are likely to want to marry, to be blunt.
All of this is predicated on her being somewhat mobile in terms of employment. It may mean moving away from family, and that can be very difficult to do, I know myself. But if one is going fishing, it’s best to do so where the fish are rather than where all the other fishermen are.
[D: Good point. Susan Walsh did a post on this basic topic a while back.]
@Doug1
I agree with most of what Dalrock said. However not about dismissing dating web sites. I’ve never used one but know people IRL and online who have. I think lots of early and mid thirties women do find marriage partners that way.
Thanks Doug1. I should clarify that I didn’t intend to dismiss dating web sites. I had those in mind as a traditional method when I wrote “in addition to the traditional methods”. My point later down was if she was looking to pull an otherwise eligible bachelor who had dropped out back into the dating game she won’t find them in the more traditional places women look for men.
ThirtySomething Single Woman,
I can only offer you one word of advice WRT finding a husband: don’t look for the right person; BE the right person! How do you know if you’re the right person? Well, ask yourself a question: if you were a guy, would you marry you? Would you make a good wife or not? Why or why not? Do you need to work on being a better listener? Do you need to work on your domestic skills? IOW, what, besides sex, do you have to offer a man? Why would a man mess up a good, happy bachelor live to marry you? Does he have a compelling REASON to do so?
Answer these questions and more with brutal honesty with yourself; i.e. answer them as you are, not how you wish to see yourself. Make a list of your shortcomings (i.e. what makes you bad wife material at the moment), then set about improving them; work on being the kind of gal a good husband would want.
The beauty of this is that you can control working on yourself. You cannot control when, where, how, or even if you’ll meet a man. You CAN control the work you put forth for self-improvement; you can control what you work on, when, how, etc. Every day you do this will put you closer to being PREPARED for the opportunity of meeting Mr. Right.
Another point I need to make is this: the farther past 30 a man gets, the less receptive to marriage he is. A famous movie line says that bachelorhood his habit forming. It is! I’m 49. I’ve never been married. Guess what? I no longer WANT to be! Why would I mess up life by bringing a woman into it?
One final caveat I’d mention is this: the man who’s looking to get married, the guy who’s serious about this, WILL observe you! I know, because I was once that guy. IOW, keep mindful of how you act, and how your actions could be interpreted. For example, if you’re seeking to be a SAHM and a prospective suitor saw you blow $1k or more on a Prada handbag, guess what? He just removed you from consideration! Why? Because such an expenditure shows carelessness with money. If you’re seeking a man with whom to have a traditional marriage and family, rest assured that he WILL look at how you handle money; after all, you’re going to be handling his! Good, marriage minded guys will always observe you quietly from a distance at first; if they see something that they don’t like, they’ll turn their attention elsewhere.
Those are my thoughts. Make SURE you bring something to the table, Little Missy! Give any prospective suitor a reason to marry you; how can you make his life better? To put it another way, could you make him WANT to surrender his freedom, his peace, his quiet, and ability to do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants? That’ll give you a clue as to what you need to work on. I wish you luck in your quest.
MarkyMark
To show you are serious about marriage, and not just looking for a place-filler in your plan, focus on marriage instead of the rest.
I think most serious people can understand and register the difference between someone interested in being married and a life of mutual support and someone who wants to wear a big white dress. A similar difference would be visible between someone who desires to be a mother and someone who wants to appease the biological clock.
If you talk about your friends getting married, and who paid what for flowers, a smart guy will run far, far away. If you talk about how nice it is to see your grandparents still together after fifty years, or to see happy settled couples, you’re showing what part you value.
@Butterfly Flower says:
…Like…Like…Like…Like…
Aren’t you the young lady looking for older serious guys? I suggest you eliminate the word “like” from your vocabulary and talk the way adults do.
Hmm…this is a dilemma.
What needs to be gauged is this: How big is the difference between the men that are approaching you now and the men that used to approach you when you were at your peak, say, in your early to mid-20’s? The greater the distance in attractiveness between these types of men, the greater the compromise you will need to make between what you want and what you can get.
This is probably the hardest thing for a woman to do. If you are in a situation where the majority of men approaching you are men you used to reject, then I don’t know if there is any help. It is not enough for you to simply seek your equivalent, since your past sexual history is probably with men fairly out of your league. It is a “taste” you may not be able to lose.
The issue here is not making yourself more attractive for marriage. The issue is how readily you can jettison the good and warm memories of your younger days with the hotter guys to put up with the vastly inferior man you are most likely to marry. In other words, if you are getting angry at the choices presented, then maybe you should stay single.
Get the marriage book by John T Molloy. He did a research project on what variables affect a woman getting married. He is not an academic. His consultancy business was results oriented. It is chock full of practical applications a woman can do to get married. No feminism or nonsense in there. No manosphere hate.
Lol, she should move to Silicon Valley a.k.a. “Man Jose”. There’s tons of beta guys here making six figures but can’t get a date… and the economy here is booming. I keep reading in the news that there’s been some kind of recession or something, but it hasn’t been obvious to me at all.
Marky Mark: “To put it another way, could you make him WANT to surrender his freedom, his peace, his quiet, and ability to do what he wants, when he wants, how he wants?”
Spot on! But to no avail if she does not know what a man sees a good deal for marriage and is not willing to make herself become a good deal, which I guess is the case with most single women in their thirties.
well, in response to paige’s post, I personally find my relationship very rewarding, and I prefer it to the alternative. I do not consider him my “boss” and I would think (or like to at least) that I am a good wife. I do my best to take care of him and care for him, as well as our young son.
That relationship — being a mother — I often find more socially burdensome (the judgement one gets as a mother is fierce), but being a wife comes easy. It could be due to the nature of our partnership.
One of the things that I like about my marriage is the companionship. I enjoy this immensely, and while I also am a loner and enjoy time alone, I do not think the single life would suit me — particularly not at this age. And the dating scene? Not my style.
Now, in relation to the top question in the post, I really feel that the advice is great. The number one advice I give women is to figure out their league and play in it. Seriously, be specific, but know where you can compromise too.
This is not “settling” but rather really evaluating your whole situation and context.
In addition, I want to echo the “set in their ways” thing. I think that this is *very* true. It’s not a problem, but you have *got* to know and accept what you are dealing with. A lot of women try to ‘change’ a man, and that includes his living habits.
One dear friend of mine *loves* tv. he’s obsessed with it. Another loves to hike. Hikes constantly. So, you see, here you are dealing with two men who have extensive hobbies/way of life, and you are either on board or off with this. I can live with either, honestly, so long as I can have a space with peace and quiet to myself. I would choose hiker over tv guy.
Both married women who are ok with their hobbies. One, the woman was into TV too, and a little overweight. Very cute, though, and funny. Very similar negative outlook on life, and a love of TV at night for hours! So, good fit. 🙂
The other — two smarties who like reading and poetry. She never hiked before, now they hike — all the time. It’s cool. She’s into cooking, so they take cooking classes together. He’s a pompous bombast sometimes, and she manages that beautifully. I don’t know how she does it, but man, she has that First Mate thing *down*. It’s because he’s actually very alpha, so i think it works in her favor in that way. But anyway. . . end of the day, both ladies over 30 had to really get into and/or accept the *lifestyle* of the man of their choosing.
And some you can live with, and some you can’t. And you won’t know, really, until you’re in it.
Sweet As: Yeah, doing things the guy likes really is a way to both show that you apprciate him and win his heart. The confirmed bachelor friend I was writing about told me about his GF buying an expensive espresso machine to her flat as soon as they started dating, so that he could have his beloved espresso also in her flat. Things like that, that if the guy did it might make a woman have doubts, because she feels that he is too eager to please.
Anonymous Reader,
You may want to re-think your self-proclaimed “humility.” It’s not consistent with calling someone else a poseur and claiming to know that person’s motivations (i.e. that I am somehow “rankled” by someone’s anonymous comment).
The funny part is I’d actually forgotten that this post started with a quote from some anonymous woman requesting for advice. I had to scroll back up through all the comments and the post to find it. You’re quite right that this woman who is requesting advice from a culturally conservative board has probably already accepted the premises of the traditionalist view of women and marriage.
I’m a bemused outsider, not rankled in the least. I am more like an anthropologist trying to understand the thought process behind some weird foreign culture. I can’t help but observe that the view of women and marriage put forward here — that women owe men some sort of deference for deigning to put up with them seems rather bleak and joyless for all concerned. I am not sure it makes me a bully to make comments along the lines that perhaps traditionalists should rethink their premises. Maybe you all will outbreed us, but will you have happy lives?
I’m a bemused outsider, not rankled in the least. I am more like an anthropologist trying to understand the thought process behind some weird foreign culture. I can’t help but observe that the view of women and marriage put forward here — that women owe men some sort of deference for deigning to put up with them seems rather bleak and joyless for all concerned. I am not sure it makes me a bully to make comments along the lines that perhaps traditionalists should rethink their premises. Maybe you all will outbreed us, but will you have happy lives?
A cultural anthropologist would not criticize the culture she is studying to its face. She would, in fact, make every effort to remain objective about that culture. Most cultural anthropologists actually believe that no one culture is superior to another or inherently good or bad, only different in the way it meets its goals and lives out its values. Which is basically bunk, IMHO. 🙂 I think most people would agree that Soviet culture, with its relentless man killing, suppression of any dissident thought or artistic expression, strangling of the work ethic and entrepreneurship, and establishment of the police state without rule of law might have been somewhat flawed, in retrospect. The Soviets did provide free and universal education, total employment, guaranteed housing and health care, and cheap transportation and goods (when available). Crime was also low. Alcoholism was unbelievably high.
In the case of the manosphere, a cultural anthropologist would spend time listening and then observing to see if some of the claims made – that women are sexually turned on by domination, that women seek dominant men, will actually fight other women to be in the circle of a dominant man, that women, at least some women, are happy deferring to their partners – might bear out. It is no less valid a thesis than any other one.
On last thing – happiness in and of itself is a bad goal for a society to have because too few people are actually able to see that strategies for short term happiness and long term happiness actually work against each other. People generally are happy when they are both good and productive. Not happy, perhaps, every day, because that is impossible, but overall.
True, I am not literally an anthropologist although there is a legitimate strain of anthropology that allows for criticism of the culture being studied. (I wrote a paper on this in anthropology 101 about a million years ago.)
I was raised in a patriarchal family in a patriarchal society, so I’ve spent my entire life looking at how the claims of patriarchy fail to match reality.
Doomed Harlot: Most women who marry traditional men are looking for a provider so they can stay home and raise their children. If they married in an egalitarian marriage they would most likely be expected to work outside the home. It is a trade-off. There are certainly draw-backs to marrying a traditionalist man, but there are draw backs to marrying an egalitarian as well.
Some women enjoy traditional gender roles more than others, so this must be considered.
Paige,
I totally understand the trade-off. But I don’t think it follows that even a traditionalist wife has to tolerate what you described.
Your description of your husband reminds me of my ex and my father. I learned the hard way that appeasement does not work with domineering men. Appeasement only encourages them to continue the demanding and domineering behavior. But the same domineering men will often back down in the face of a clear bold statement along the lines of, “This is not okay” or “I won’t put up with X anymore.” There is nothing wrong with being a good wife but you don’t have to tolerate disrespect just because someone’s paying your bills.
I was not describing my husband. My husband is fairly reasonable and considerate. Because of that doing the whole “submission” thing has only occasionally been a major annoyance (i.e. with money disagreements).
But a traditional woman who takes the traditional role seriously needs to be prepared for the demands that may be expected of her. If she isn’t then she should either not get married or make it plain and clear in the beginning that she will not be submissive.
That’s true. It’s good to know what you’re getting into. But I do think there should always be room to renegotiate. My mother did the whole, “I made my bed and now I have to lie in it,” routine and I thought she was being very unfair to herself. She should have said, “Look, Hub, I made a deal with you when I was young and it’s not working. I still love you, but we have to renegotiate how things work around here.”
@ Paige and DH:
There’s a difference between a man who is dominant and a man who is domineering.
A dominant man takes charge and leads. A domineering man is demanding, arrogant, churlish and unpleasant. A dominant man protects and leads those under his charge. A domineering man cracks the whip, pushes too hard and then complains when things don’t go his way. A dominant man commands respect by his mien and bearing, and his wife and children are safe and secure with him. A domineering man gets no true respect, only superficial submission, and his wife and children secretly hate and fear him behind his back.
It appears to me the manosphere does not advocate for male domineering. It seeks, and celebrates, male dominance.
I’m going to derail this towards the more frivolous.
30 yr old lady- GO TO HOME DEPOT.
I am currently renovating my entire house by hand, including fixing old furniture, power sanding, painting etc etc and I have made many trips to the Home Depot. I always leave with my market value a little inflated.
It is a perfect place to meet men, especially manly men who know how to fix things. And it is very easy to strike up a conversation since, as a woman, you need advice on the best wood-glue, or power saw or whatever. Further, it is still a place heavily populated by men, so it does kinda feel like you are a hen in a fox house 😉
Some common sense: Don’t go during working hours, as you probably want a man with a white collar job. Go during lunch, after work, or weekends.
Married or single, it’s a good place to go for a little ego boost.
DH, it sounds like you mother had a very unfulfilling life raising you. My regrets to her experience.
To the commenter seeking advice on how to assess her SMV/MMV:
Go here for a detailed and fairly assessment of your appearance and personality traits relevant for one night stands. Your spot on the traditional 1-10 scale will match up with the groupings/descriptions at the end.
http://roissy.wordpress.com/dating-market-value-test-for-women/
Then go here to get an adjustment for LTR value based on men’s perception of your likely loyalty.
http://voxday.blogspot.com/2010/07/mailvox-hierarchy-of-female.html
The beta orbiter method is probably a bit harsh, as she by definition has higher value than they do or they wouldn’t be orbiting. Still, it’s a good wakeup call, as they are by defnition men who are interested in her and willing to be patient with whatever bad behavior led to her being unsuitable for marriage when she was at her peak. Certainly if she’s looking for a non traditional egalitarian Marriage 2.0 type of marriage, a beta orbiter isn’t far wrong. If she wants a marriage that will actually work, the good news is she can do a little better, the bad news is she’ll have to work at that marriage, at least on occasion as hard as Paige described. TANSTAAFL.
@Paige- You are right. Did you marry a traditional man or an egalitarian man? I married an egalitarian man who was pretending (or thought the only option) was to be an egalitarian man. Thankfully, I am a traditional woman (to an extent) so it worked out.
I think even egalitarian men appreciate a traditional woman. A traditional woman can be a great asset. A scene from Big Love has always stuck in my head- where the middle wife who was raised in a rural compound always got stuck fixing the appliances. Being traditional is not just cooking and cleaning and looking nice, those women get down and dirty.
…and this whole SWPL, eco-friendly, DYI, handmade, authentic, organic, sustainable bullshit is just women trying to find a way to be sweet little housewives and make pretty little things for their house. It’s all so disingenuous. Such a big part of female SWPL-ness is homemaker related. Lots of sewing, canning, and painting going on in those circles…..
Feminism has made a whole 360. We got freedom. And we want to bake, goddamn it.
Flavia- My husband is pretty traditional but with enough “beta” to make him mostly tolerable. :p
I wrote something about how housewifery has changed a few months ago:
http://likeinbooks.wordpress.com/2011/03/09/housewife-culture-2-0/
Thank you, Dan. She did have a rough go of it, as did many women of her era, and I appreciate your good wishes on her behalf. She was and is a really great mother, and I think she deserved better.
Flavia, I like baking! And that means . . . .what? My love of cookie dough means I secretly want to be dominated?
DH, secretly, yes 😉
Hmmm. Sounds kinky!
On last thing – happiness in and of itself is a bad goal for a society to have because too few people are actually able to see that strategies for short term happiness and long term happiness actually work against each other. People generally are happy when they are both good and productive. Not happy, perhaps, every day, because that is impossible, but overall.
Grerp,
I would have been confused about this a week ago. Then I read Mortimer Adler’s Ten Philosophical Mistakes. Consider the phrase “the pursuit of happiness.” What does it mean?
Adler makes the point that we have confused emotional (psychological) happiness with ethical happiness. The former is perhaps best identified as “contentment.” The latter is a state derived from living in accord with that which is ACTUALLY good for us, not just what we think is good for us. Ethical happiness can be judged for no living person, and can be obtained by no living person. We can each live in accord with ethically good things, but can only be judged afterwards. (Not surprisingly, Adler was an Aristotelian and a Thomist, and converted at the end of his life to Catholicism.)
SO EVERY society MUST allow human “the pursuit of happiness,” understood as the chance to live in accord with that which is actually good for us.
@detinennui32
Your explanation of the difference between dominant and domineering is on target and the closest I have seen to my view. No wonder it sounded so intelligent.
I am not really seeing the difference between domineering and dominant. By definition, automatically assuming the right to “lead” your wife just because you’re a dude is the height of arrogance. Just because you smile when you’re running her life doesn’t change the fact that you are calling the shots over someone else in her own home.
The part about being safe-and-secure is interesting. That is, I suspect, the motivation of traditionalist women. It’s not so much that women, even traditionalist women, love having their will overriden by their husbands. It’s that they worry a lot about safety and they think that somehow a dominant husband will keep them more safe. It’s the old human tendency to trade dignity and freedom for security. It’s a life ruled by fear.
Doomed Harlot–
It’s the biological natural order of things, the vast majority of the time.
HOWEVER.
Pisses me off. I did not push send.
Doomed Harlot, I am just pointing out the irony. All these women (well actually not “all these women”, but a tiny number of elite and disruptive women who held too much power) harping on about freedom and equality and not being able to pursue happiness and fulfill their lifelong dreams because they were chained to that Fucking Kitchen!! Slaving away, baking, cleaning, fixing furniture, sewing, tending to the kids….
All right, so now women, as far as biology can go, have total equality (probably “more” equality than men) and what do so many of these crunchy vegan rah rah We Can Do It womyn want to do? Bake!! Sew!! Crotchet!!
It’s just a little funny. So much bellyaching and biology reigns supreme. We are her bitch.
Oh, I know you were a little bit facetious, Flavia. But the ideas underlying your humor are a bit off. The issue isn’t that Baking is Bad; the problem is when Baking is Your Destiny because you don’t have other options.
…and the humor is that now with myriad options many women gravitate towards the baking.
Yes, it’s humorous.
But on the serious side, most women aren’t taking to baking, that’s a small minority. Most women that I know can barely cook. Most were pushed to focus on their studies to the exclusion of everything else.
TLIMS: That’s nonsense. I learnt how to cook while studying 50-60 hours a week at law school, exercising 3 times a week and going out partying 2-3 times a week.
Yep, women gravitate towards baking . . . and knitting, and gardening, and ice hockey and law and politics and business.
@Lavazza
That’s wonderful that you learned to cook. I’ve also had to learn to cook as an adult while working, going to school, etc..
But I’m not sure which part you’re referring to as nonsense. ?
Is it that a lot of women that I know don’t know how to cook and weren’t taught to?
Well, they weren’t. But, of course, they can learn to if they so wish.
Isn’t it a small subset of modern women in the States who are baking, canning, sewing or am I wrong to think it’s a minority?
@DH
Yep, women gravitate towards baking
I’m definitely not where you are because where I’m at, the women don’t gravitate towards baking but ….. they do gravitate towards baked goods! lol
ha ha
TLIMS:
“Most women that I know can barely cook. Most were pushed to focus on their studies to the exclusion of everything else.”
Most guys I know are good or excellent cooks. Most learned how to cook at home during their late teens and/or after leaving home to study in their early twenties.
I am like my guy friends. You are not like your girl friends.
What I meant too say is that internal or external pressure to perform academically is not the biggest cause or correlation I see relating to inadequate prowess in cooking.
Lack of interest, no love for food, laziness or fear of not doing it right would be my guesses why a lot of people are bad at cooking. Most people who like cooking are sensual, passionate, pleasure seeking people.
@Lavazza
Oh, I see what you mean.
Of course you’re right, but some women from the previous generation gave their daughters that exact message.
I remember while growing up- some girls around me were being told that they didn’t need to learn to cook well or clean if they got an education, they can always hire someone for those. Cooking was for the less educated and mothers stopped passing on this skill.
I mean how did we (btw, I’m female) end up having to learn to cook on our own from cookbooks and TV shows?
ElectricAngel – this is more or less what I was getting at. Thanks for shedding that light on the idea of “the pursuit of happiness.”
I taught myself how to cook…and how to sew and how to garden. My mother tried to teach me, but she went back to school when I was 10, and she was busy and my sister and I were lazy and fought learning anything.
When I was a junior in high school and planning my senior year, my guidance counselor suggested Home Ec. I thought she was totally sexist – I actually felt insulted – and instead signed up for Calculus, Physics, and Physiology. She was right, though. I have never used calculus or physics post-school. I could have learned something practical I would have used in Home Ec. I also wish I would have taken wood shop, but everyone thought that was just for burnouts. My cousin did wood shop and alternative education, and now he makes a good living as a master craftsman/carpenter.
speaking of men and women cooking, another good reason to loathe Hanna Rosin: http://www.doublex.com/section/life/rise-kitchen-bitch
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Doomed Harlot–
God, what are you, a feminist lawyer bitch or something? Yuck.
Yep, Paul, it’s just great when feminists like Rosin and Tsing-Loh start singing hymns of praise about the oh-so-gender-role-denying men in their lives by describing them as a kitchen bitches.
Feminism is such a huge lie, really. Liars, liars, liars.
Doomed Poseur Harlot
Anonymous Reader,
You may want to re-think your self-proclaimed “humility.” It’s not consistent with calling someone else a poseur and claiming to know that person’s motivations (i.e. that I am somehow “rankled” by someone’s anonymous comment).
I am humble enough to answer a question put to me to the best of my ability. Case in point, I offered advise to the anonymous woman on how to do what she wants to do. You, on the other hand, chose to chide her for what she wants to do.
In other words, you display the usual feminist arrogance on the issue of choices: you’re all in favor of “choice”, so long as the right “choice” is made. What is the “right choice”? Why, whatever feminist dogma holds, of course. The idea that a woman might choose something you don’t want apparently gets some part of your ego riled up.
I’m humble towards people who are honestly seeking knowledge. Arrogant feminists do not as a rule engage in that process, you are generally too busy telling people what to do to spend any time helping them to achieve their goals, rather than your goals.
The funny part is I’d actually forgotten that this post started with a quote from some anonymous woman requesting for advice. I had to scroll back up through all the comments and the post to find it. You’re quite right that this woman who is requesting advice from a culturally conservative board has probably already accepted the premises of the traditionalist view of women and marriage.
So perhaps you can take away from this experience the idea that context matters, and that assuming you know it all (whatever “it” may be) can lead to a negative outcome?
I’m a bemused outsider, not rankled in the least. I am more like an anthropologist trying to understand the thought process behind some weird foreign culture.
Your rationalization hamster may believe that. But your habit of telling people they are wrong in their beliefs reveals the truth: you are an advocate for your own ideology, the dominant ideology of current culture. To this observer, it appears you cannot abide the idea that there could be anywhere, any tiny shred of anti-feminist thought.
I can’t help but observe that the view of women and marriage put forward here — that women owe men some sort of deference for deigning to put up with them seems rather bleak and joyless for all concerned.
I will speculate that you still believe men and women are the same, except women can have babies and men cannot. That’s pure speculation on my part, but since it is one of the underlying premises of feminism, it seems reasonable. However, this belief is simply wrong. It is disproven on a regular basis by science; women’s brains are physically different from men’s brains, women’s fight-or-flight reactions are almost always different from men’s (and that is a whole posting in itself), muscle mass and endurance differences, color sense differences, hearing range differences, and so forth.
Given the reality of human biology that resulted from millennia of evolution, there is “programming” in men and women at the hindbrain levels that affects us unconsciously. We can overcome some of that programming to some extent, else civilization above the tribal level would be impossible. But some of that programming involving mating cannot really be overriden — attempts to ignore it result in unhappiness for both men and women, absent a lot of conscious work.
This is my long winded way of saying that on average, for the “typical” man and woman, both of them will be happier and better off if he is perceived as the leader of the family. Every couple has to work out their own details, of course. Who does the taxes? Probably whomever is better at it…but the “captain/first officer” model seems to work quite well, for most people.
There are outliers, in the statistical sense, for whom other arrangements are better. An analogy would be, oh, a food allergy. Someone allergic to pecans better not chomp down on pralines, for example, or pecan pie. But on average, to a majority, such things are treats, not threats.
I am not sure it makes me a bully to make comments along the lines that perhaps traditionalists should rethink their premises.
Trotting out a tired feminist trope that was old 20 years ago is really not useful to the anonymous woman in question, in my opinion. Given the fact that feminist models for women have spread wider in the culture at the exact same time that women have expressed less and less happiness, it might be time for you to question your premises.
Maybe you all will outbreed us, but will you have happy lives?
For what definition of happiness? There’s more to life than toys. He who dies with the most toys might “win”, but he’s still dead.
Forgot to add to Doomed Poseur Harlot:
I call you a poseur, because you are one by your own admission. In a previous thread I challenged you to tell exactly where your sexual history would make you a harlot, outside of Saudi Arabia. And I pointed out that your attempt to “own” the term is simply magical thinking — the notion that somehow by altering the semantic value of a symbol, the referent would be changed, i.e. that if “slut” or “harlot” were devalued, there would be no more slut shaming in the larger culture.
Now that I know you are an attorney, your magical thinking makes more sense, because in your world, changing words actually changes some part of reality. Of course, that is only true because big, strong men with guns (and yes, it’s men…) are prepared to go out and make those changes “true” by force if need be. However, away from the arena of the legal system, playing with words does not affect reality.
If words such as “slut”, “harlot”, etc. were actually rendered null and void, some new term would be coined in short order to refer to “woman who has had so many sex partners as to make her a large risk to any man in an LTR/marriage”.
And women would use that term in a shaming way far more than men, just as is the case now. You can pretend to be a “harlot” all you want, just as little girls play princess. In both cases, it is just a pose.
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Dalrock,
Feel free to remove this from this thread if you want. I was wondering if you could do another reader advice post for me?
A guy that I work with and I have been good friends for a while, since before his marriage went sour. (I’m single, btw). There was kind of a mini-crush thing going on there, but those happen regardless and don’t mean anything, plus I am not stupid enough to act on them anyway (my hamster is flabby from lack of exercise). Recently, his marriage went south for several reasons which I won’t list but it involves his wife’s behavior as an average strong-hamster woman. After that happened, he kept suggesting that he wanted more from me than just a work friendship. I can pick up hints but I kept sending the message that I’m not a home-wrecker nor an adulterer. I also pulled the friendship back to work-related things.
Recently, he just sent me a strong message that he might be leaving his wife and wants to know if I would, er, get physical. I already plan on telling him absolutely not, but I want to include stuff that would help him with his marriage. I plan on MMSL, but is there anything (from a guy’s perspective) that would be most helpful in this situation?
Recently, he just sent me a strong message that he might be leaving his wife and wants to know if I would, er, get physical. I already plan on telling him absolutely not, but I want to include stuff that would help him with his marriage. I plan on MMSL, but is there anything (from a guy’s perspective) that would be most helpful in this situation?
I’m not a guy but I would say Athol’s blog. Married Man sex live, if that doesn’t help him nothing will. He might no pay attention though, given that you are going to reject him, but maybe don’t say anything sent a first message with the blog. He will read it at least and he might take the hint, if he asks you then tell him that you are not a homewrecker…He should take the hint. That would be at least what I would do.
Helvetica,
Good call on keeping your boundaries. As for how to introduce him to game, etc, I think you are right to start with MMSL. If there weren’t a boundaries issue I would say get him a copy of the book. Online the post about Dave from Hawaii at Roissy’s site should be great for providing the “aha!” moment, so you might want to have him start there. Badger is another marriage friendly blogger who I might direct him to in addition to Athol Kay. All of these links are on this page: https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/19/game-resources-for-marriage/
Helvetica,
Agree with Dalrock. You don’t need a rebound relationship. If he can’t keep it friendly, cut him dead.
Keep your boundaries and integrity.
Everyone can pursue their own dreams and desires. The D&D may not be achieved, but they can be pursued.
The thing I fail to understand is why men would seek marriage. I understand why women want marriage, but what benefits does it confer on men?
The costs and risks of marriage, for men, are very well known. Are there benefits that override the negatives?
Cooking and cleaning can be performed by men, or they can be subcontracted. Women aren’t needed for these purposes.
Companionship can be found in church, voluntary associations, friendship, or family of origin.
Romance is overrated, but can easily be secured outside marriage.
Marriage, I guess, is okay for those who want it. But why would anyone wqnt it?
@grerp
“but everyone thought that was just for burnouts. ”
LOL. There’s a term I haven’t heard in a while.
@harlot
You ask why it would be his “right” to lead, but it’s more of a burden and obligation. Because if he doesn’t, most women will lose attraction and leave him (or, at a minimum, stop having sex with him and wish they were with someone else). Maybe not you, but most. I’m sure it’s just because of the patriarchy, though.
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Ugh I can’t believe that this article still focuses a little on the looking for “Mr. Perfect”, the Brad Pitt type… Jesus women GET OVER IT, JUST GET OVER IT!!!!! There is no effin such thing as “Mr. Perfect” there isn’t, it’s just plain and simple FACT nobody in the whole universe is “perfect” so get that out of your heads period. Mr. Perfect is an effin fantasy that women got from some dumb a** novel or child’s book when they were kids and they took literally and it amazes so many men how the “Mr. Perfect” trips up so many single women. Women don’t seem to get that men constantly laugh AT women not with you but AT you when single women bring up the “Mr. Perfect” conversation and men are like what the eff ever, she’s obviously in LA LA land and needs bitc*ed slapped into reality!! Also women get effin over the whole he must no matter what he just must be the minimum 6′ tall. BS, that’s complete and utter BS… Single women are making dating so hard on themselves and dating IS NOT ROCKET SCIENCE!! Single women make dating like this whole it needs to be SOOOO unbelievably hard. Yes dating is hard to find the right person to be with but it’s no ROCKET SCIENCE!!
Also women’s demand list that’s out of control… The you must be this, you must be that etc… Whatever… BS NO I MUST NOT!!! What then are you bringing to the table???? Women need to quit demanding and they will get a hell of a lot better results. Don’t women get that DEMANDS are insulting and such a turnoff for men. When men see the women with the big a** list of DEMANDS men shutter and are like scr*w her no matter how hot she is men will run so fast from her. I’m not saying all lists (lists within reason) (short lists) are OK but the ones that have the “never ending list” or the “lists” that are a whole page or more buh bye!!! Also the women that refuse to open their minds up and it’s their must list but he should be open minded…. No wonder she’s always single, or in constant always really short term relationships.
Also women need to get over there he must be tall, dark, blue eyes, perfect teeth. Um yeah good look with that…. Never ever will happen getting that “total match” and the “perfect teeth” thing is total BS so now she expects him to never eat, drink or anything that stains his teeth??? Stupid BS list… Most of these women that have these utter complete BS list, is just that just complete and utter BS and the women that always continues to “hold out” cause she has that “list” she wont ever let go and is looking for “him” she’s not only stupid but will always be single or the one that is constantly in the really short term relationships going from man to man to man to man to man.. Damn it must get so damn old constantly banging your head against the wall cause she’s looking for that “perfect” that never exists.
A lot of these women that these enormous “lists” are usually so miserable with themselves and I think men have to ask is she really worth all that trouble.
A constructive article I read a minute ago and summarizes helping single women over 30 who have had other concerns or life events which may have left “husband hunting before 30” off their list of priorities.
1. Resolve to make your personal life a priority. A woman who wants a partner for life needs to be as directed in her romantic pursuits as she is about her career, her workout routine, or her skin care.
2. Visualize your marital future. Successful people rarely achieve their goals without first imagining their ability to succeed.
3. Remove any obstacles that have kept you single. To isolate what impediments may have contributed to your singleness, fill in the blank: I believe I’m still single because ____.
4.Stand tall. Admitting that you’d like to get married does not signal an affliction; it’s merely a defensible life goal.
5.Reserve judgment. Don’t jump to hasty negative conclusions about new men you meet.
6.Get off the road if it isn’t taking you where you need to go. Today you are dating for a reason, not for fun.
7. Live with gratitude. The best way to get more out of life is to appreciate fully the one you have.
The article was based on a book called “How to Get Married After 35″… I’m about to be 32 and I’m using it.
Paige: As for getting a man: Simple. Go to a comicon convention dressed as Wonder Woman.
Priceless! And just about guaranteed to work! Or if comics aren’t your thing, invest in a Startrek uniform and a pair of Vulcan ears, and start hitting the conventions.
Just remember: Its not settling if you truly cannot do any better.
I think also men are dam* tired of so many of these single women that think it’s all ok to constantly go around and sleep with 100’s or 1000’s of men and think they are just exploring. After a certain number of men women become those throw around slu*s and it’s not just exploring anymore basically with a lot of the women that never settle are are always hooking up with another man every night or every other night are basically free prostitutes. Women that don’t settle seems to always give BS excuse, but after awhile into like their late 20’s or early 30’s it’s time for women to get serious, time to get into real relationships. After women get into their real late 20’s especially more in their early 30’s they become more of a laughing stock. Also it’s interesting how so many women anymore I think, think that getting divorced is “cool”, especially the ones that get divorced just because they are “bored”. Don’t women realize that getting divorced especially just cause they don’t want to work on the marriage or just “bored” is hugely frowned upon. It’s not “cool”, it’s not even funny, there should be no celebration for any divorce only unless it was obviously abusive, or cheating. Abuse or cheating are the ONLY reasons to EVER get divorced. If there is no Abuse or Cheating then stay the he** married, yes marriages is hard, but so is everything in life. Marriage you have to constantly work at it…
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I am 56 and honestly don’t know if I want to remarry, but I do have advice for younger women. Forget ‘game’ and go for warmth, decency, and kindness. Also, be sweet, cheerful, and upbeat. Smile. Be feminine.,Get rid of bitterness-it not only drives men off but will make you sick inside.I am not just offering platitudes. I have never lacked male compnw
I am a single woman of 32 years of age. I have a very kind heart and am attractive, very active and fit (yoga instructor), good career, smarts, good friends, lots of hobbies to keep me fulfilled. My problem in the past has not been that I have been too picky, it’s that I have not been picky enough. I lacked confidence and would take any guy who showed interest. I have been in several relationships that have resulted in heart break for me. Guys with drinking or substance abuse problems, guys with anger problems…etc. I ultimately broke up with them after trying my best. I want a relationship for the long haul but none of them seemed to care to work with me.
I took a couple years off from dating anyone to work on my self-confidence. It has done wonders for me. Now I am actively trying to date again, and I am using much more discretion. I am not too picky, but I am not dating desperately like I did in the past either.
I want to say there is a whole other population of women out there that are still single in their thirties. It’s the girl that was not picky enough and lacked confidence in her twenties. She probably took what she thought she deserved at the time, while most of the wonderful men in her age group met and married their wives.
I think a great population of men to date may be the divorced men who married in their twenties to women who didn’t fully appreciate them. That’s just my opinion. God will I ever fully appreciate the guy who treats me right. He might not be the best-looking guy, he will have a job and teeth. I hope he has some interests of his own and I find him attractive and fun to be around. But mostly I just hope he is ready for a relationship full of fun, respect, communication and good love. Asking too much? I don’t think so.
@ ciji 32:
Your comment of earlier today was interesting. If you don’t mind my doing so, I’d like to point out a couple of things that might help you, if you are looking for advice on marriage and finding a good partner. Your comment shows that you have a small amount of understanding on male-female relationships. But with due respect, you have much to learn. I submit that you don’t understand fully how male-female relationships work.
I”ll take the first part of your story at face value and accept that you weren’t “picky enough”. You chose men who were never going to marry you. They were in it with you for the sole purpose of getting sex by any means necessary. This is the male imperative — to spread seed as far and wide as possible. They were willing to “work with” you so long as the sex continued to flow effortlessly and with a minimum of obligation.
You are also drawn to douchebags. How do I know this? By your own admission, you dated “Guys with drinking or substance abuse problems, guys with anger problems…etc.” I will be willing to bet that all the men you dated were supremely confident, were better than average looking, and gamed you pretty hard.
The problem was not your lack of confidence. Nearly every young woman in her 20s can get anything she wants in a man. Women in their 20s have immense power in the sexual marketplace. They have a near stranglehold on 90%+ of all the power.
The problem was your attraction to men who are not suited to relationships. Perhaps you have fixed this now, but I suspect it has little to do with confidence and much more to do with changing the venues you inhabit, the people you associate with and the media you consume.
If you are 32 years old and unmarried, you need to lower your standards. A lot. And “picky” is not what I would recommend. You need to discern between the men who will pump & dump you, and the men who will be relationship material. To find the latter, you will have to widen your filters, not narrow them. You will also need to contribute on an equal footing financially. Don’t expect to be wined and dined at fancy restaurants, or taken for expensive entertainment.
And he does not want “fun, respect, or communication”. Men are attracted to looks and kind/pleasant demeanor. That will generate attraction. But you need to offer more than that. Can you cook? Can you keep a house? Will you be kind and pleasant to him? What do you have to offer him other than your body and your communications skills? Any man worth his salt will be examining you to ask not what he can do for you, but what you can do for him.
You don’t need confidence. You need to look good, be nice, widen your attraction filters, and offer him something other than your body.
Good luck.
@ ciji:
You might benefit from reading this:
Calibrating Attraction by Controlling the Venue
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/10/21/calibrating-attraction-by-controlling-the-venue/
@ ciji:
I glossed over the “good career” part. What do you do? How much time do you spend at it? Do you think the time you spend at work might be keeping you from finding a quality man?
“I want to say there is a whole other population of women out there that are still single in their thirties. It’s the girl that was not picky enough and lacked confidence in her twenties. She probably took what she thought she deserved at the time, while most of the wonderful men in her age group met and married their wives.”
No. ciji32, you are proceeding from a false assumption those women wanted to get married. They did not want marriage; they wanted careers and sex with hot, sexy men.
Those single 30-something women did not lack confidence. They had all the confidence in the world. They slept with the hot men who were attractive to them and made them tingle. Then those single women slammed up against 30 and realized they wasted the best most fertile years of their lives on douchebags. Those women took the hot sexy men because those women thought they deserved those hot sexy men, and wanted those men — for the sex.
Hi deti, thanks for all your advice and what not. Just to let you know, that was not really the type of guy I have dated. As a matter-of-fact, my longest term relationships have been with guys who are not in great financial standings, overweight, balding, divorced, some still live with their parents. I have had the issue of codependency. I was the care taker, while they lost respect for me. My last long-term partner asked me to move into his place about a year in, as soon as I did he quit his job and asked me to pay for his mortgage. Which I did unfortunately for 4 months before I moved out, because he was yelling at me and telling me what I could or couldn’t do with my money. We had a few serious conversations about going to counseling, he did not want to. If anything, I was doing way too much for the relationship while the guys did way to little.
I honestly can’t really say what caused me to be attracted to some guys I dated, besides that I saw their potential. They all had good qualitites too. And I am dating with a very open mind still. Just recognizing I deserve a guy who treats me as an equal now. That’s a start. I never mentioned anything about me not treating them as an equal. Nor only going for the hot and sexy men. That’s just not me at all. Sorry I gave you that impression.
Just one more thought too, I really am not fretting about wasted time. It’s all part of my life’s journey. And I have learned and grown a great deal from each experience. I live a happy life, I don’t think of myself as past expiration. That’s just dreadful. I am good person and have always thought if I do end up in the right place I will make a great partner and mother, even if the children are adopted. Anyway, thanks again deti, it’s kind of you to try to help fix my problem. Although I’d like a partner, I ultimately think it’s not really a problem for me to be where I am in my life right now. I think it would suck to wake up everyday and think, “what is wrong with me, I’ve wasted all this time, I hate my life…etc.” I’m sure that wouldn’t help me get a date either. Peace.
ciji:
The men you dated might have been “not in great financial standings, overweight, balding, divorced, some still live with their parents”, but they were still douchebags. They might not have been hot, sexy men, but they were still douchebags. You, as a codependent, saw men who you thought you could fix up, make them just the way you want them to be, and then they will see all the things you do for them and they will love you. Doesn’t work that way.
I still think your thinking on this is off. A woman will not respect a man who treats her as an equal. What you need is a man you can look up to and be attracted to. If you have this, you can respect him. You won’t stay with a man you don’t respect. And you don’t want a man who treats you as an equal. Male-female relationships work best when she submits to his dominant frame. If you don’t submit to him, you won’t respect him and you won’t stay with him.
“I honestly can’t really say what caused me to be attracted to some guys I dated, besides that I saw their potential.”
This is typical of women. They usually don’t know why they find particular kinds of men attractive. But, “potential” doesn’t cut it if they are “not in good financial standing” or “still live with their parents” for marriage material. Also, all women want hot, sexy men. Let’s at least be honest about that.
Hi deti, why do you think you know what is best for me?
ciji:
I don’t know what’s best for you. Given your track record with men and your belief that your problem was a lack of confidence and selectivity, you apparently are a bit hazy on what’s best for you as well. I simply take what I know and have learned generally about women and intergender relationships, and apply it to the facts you’ve set out.
You posted here, I responded to it. You can take what I say or leave it. It’s entirely up to you.
ciji32: Since your own “smarts” and your “good friends” advice and guidance has yielded awful results in the “best for you” department, you might be wise trying something totally new.
Oh deti, you should have stopped the second her hamster started. ciji is not interested in changing, she’s just trying to seek confirmation that she’s still a good ‘deal’ and thus worthy of the futile investment of marriage with her.
Women over 30 are not marriage material, whether or not they engaged in massive sluttery or not. Best be up front with her and spare yourself the hand whinging next time.
Yikes. Sorry I posted on this forum. My mistake. Best to all of you.
If a woman can accept the truth and be introspective, she can prove that she is the exception to the rule. But so very few are willing to swallow the bitter Red Pill for Women.
Don’t worry, I’m sure there are far more places to gain advice on how to procure a beta shlub and marry him before your biological clock ticks over 12. Good luck to you and your future ex-husband.
ciji32: You have better odds for a LTR where you still support yourself and you don’t have any kids. But you will have to be very lucky to get a guy that you are attracted to and who still wants to marry you, support you and have kids with you.
A discussion of the unmarriageable evangelical american princess… worth a look:
http://cmd-n.org/2012/05/01/evangelical-american-princess
Ok this word is getting so dam* old and abused for so many men. The word of “settling”. Why is it so many women these days think “SETTLING” is SUCH a BAD WORD????? Do a lot of women these days just don’t get the word “settling” or actually do they think if they are this ULTRA ULTRA PICKY they will seriously get this imaginary fantasy god like god that meets EVERY SINGLE “REQUIREMENT” ON HER LIST???? Now seriously COMMON on WOMEN, SERIOUSLY GET INTO REALITY!!!!!!! When men say ” settle” down we by no means say just settle for any shlump but what pi**es men off so much is women think that by holding out and saying NO TO EVERY SINGLE GUY THAT THERE WILL BE THIS FANTASY GOD LIKE GUY THAT’S GOING TO MAGICALLY APPEAR ( as is he’s going to be the oh so demanding 6′ ++ guy, have millions upon millions of dollars, have this “perfect life” and never have a worry in life, and you can just sit on your a** all day every day and do nothing). Thats such COMPLETE BS, SUCH NOT REALITY!!! Reality is a JOB, he’s probably not going to be 6′ +++, he’s not going to have UNLIMITED MONEY, he’s going to WORK, LIFE ISN’T ALL ABOUT PARTY PARTY PARTY, and you yourself are most likely going to have your own job as well. Younger Women these days have got to GET OVER THOSE BS SO CALLED “REALITY” SHOWS. THEY AREN’T “REALITY” THEY ARE MADE UP BS, SH*T*Y TV SHOWS. Technology also has made a lot of young women SO DELUSIONAL and makes them think holding out for EVER makes them more desirable. Want to know a clue women, that constant holding out, saying no to every guy, thinking there is this magical “fantasy” god like guy is such a TURNOFF to men that men run from women with those delusional “fantasies”.
Earl, the girls are holding out for the magic 6/6 combo (6 feet/6 figures). News flash, ladies, there aren’t enough to go around.
Most men can’t ever make 6 figures and of those who do, it usually takes them til their 40s to get there. If they’re still single by then, either they’re hopelessly undesireable for some other reason, or they never wanted to marry in the first place, or they have long ago sadly given up.
And of course there’s nothing you can do about your height. It works both ways too: I’m 6’3′ myself, and I’ve actually been rejected as “too tall” on one occasion (that I know about). Sheesh. The Arab proverb is right: Women want toasted ice.
There are some very good comments here!
I am a married woman in my early 30s. I just want to reiterate, again, that I think the word ‘settling’ is not the best choice of words. When I went about looking for my now husband, I just took an honest look at myself, and what I was willing to settle for/NOT settle for. This is the easiest thing to say, but hardest thing to do-for years I was trapped in the mentality of finding someone who met all my ‘checklist’ criteria…..but slowly, over years and years I whittled my checklist into something much more realistic and attainable……
What it takes, basically, is admitting that you are not perfect yourself, and admitting your own imperfections, and what you can expect to get as a result. That may sound harsh, but it is true.
For example, I am fairly lean and in shape-yet love to eat. So yes, I do have a little belly-flat, but definitely not very defined. So, is it really fair for me to demand a guy with a six pack, perfect body, works out three times daily? Of course not! Rather, I should set a goal for a guy who is lean, generally takes care of himself-but will split creme brulee with me and not care about a having a tiny belly pouch. However, I am a professional, and decided I want to be married to a professional also-I don’t feel there is anything wrong with this, I just picked and chose what I did and did not want.
Btw, you don’t always have to chose between marriage vs career-it does help to have a husband in the same career field if you work a lot in my opinion.
Now between career and motherhood-I have not figured that one out yet, I will get back to you when I do. =)
Anyway, I digress. The ‘abs’ example, though silly, is just one example-you must access looks, intelligence, social graces, financial stability, political views, what you can and cannot put you with. I realized a long time ago that I cannot be with a man if they laugh a certain way….odd, I know, but forcing myself to be honest about it did eliminate certain people for sure.
Hope this helps, though it’s probably not any more insightful than other comments. Good luck! I hope you find true love =)
Ugh the whole women being so overly obsessed with men’s “height” thing is so out of control these days!!! I think women need to be a lot more quiet about the constant complaining bitch*ing about men’s “height”. The whole complaining about he need to be this “tall” she demands to be this ultra specific “height” or the “he’s not tall enough” gawww just SHUT up already. I think women these days need to learn it’s sooo RUDE to bit*h, complain and be all OBSESSED about men’s height. Just like women have the rule where men shouldn’t ask women about their weight or age, same should go for men’s height for women. Just like women constantly say who cares about her age or weight, should be the same for women to realize it’s extremely RUDE to complain, bit*h, snicker about men’s height… Just SHUT UP about men’s HEIGHT, if he’s 5’8″, 5’9″, 5’10” so effin what… Open your minds about men’s height and STOP already with the height complaining!!! There are a lot more men in the 5’8’s, 5’9’s, 5’10 men then 6′ and 6++ men. A lot of women are so limiting themselves with their strict “height requirements”.
Honestly I think its gross to date an older men…you men come here saying how a man should be older, actually did you know us woman want children too, and its proven fact that men also go through biological clock ticking as well…autism is high in children because of older fathers! If you do a google search or research there are many doctors warning men over 40 have a higher chance of passing down autism, dwarfism, birth defects and other problems to the child…it doesn’t matter how young the woman is…this is from the man’s sperm not the womans eggs! Again…as woman try so hard to look younger and beautiful it makes sense for her to date a man at least 3 to 5 years younger as woman also live longer by 7 years generally of the men her own age…or date someone your own age…men are pedophilies always looking for the baby girl right out of the womb! Its actually quiet dangerous having children with older men, even if you are a younger woman…the risks would be higher as if a woman was 45-50 having a baby..and still many 48 year old woman have healthy babies…i know so many but again…risks are there for men too is all i am saying…i’m 30 and i’m a woman i look young for my age people think i’m 21 but i’m not so me going for a 30 year old man that looks 35 looks kinda creepy and i don’t want that look, so i date men that are like 26 or 27 and we make good couple…we look the same and i know if i ever have children when i’m 40 i got younger healthier sperm….then some blad, big bellied, grey haired, snorring old-man!
WOMAN DATE A MAN A FEW YEARS YOUNGER, AND HAVE BETTER HEALTHIER BABIES, ITS NOT HEALTHY AS MEN OVER 40 DO HAVE LOWER QUALITY SPERM AND THE OLDER HE GETS THE WORSE BIRTH DEFECTS ARE POSSIBLE, MY AUNT IS A DOCTOR AND SEES SO MANY BABIES BORN WITH AUTISM AND GENERALLY ITS BECAUSE OF THE OLD FATHER, AND SHE JUST SAY ANOTHER CHILD SUFFERING FROM DWARFISM…FATHER WAS 59 THE WOMAN WAS ONLY 21 AGAIN…WHAT A WASTE…SHE COULD HAVE DONE BETTER IF SHE HUNG AROUND MEN HER OWN AGE!
MEN TO HAVE THAT CLOCK…BUT ITS MORE GRADUAL ….AGAIN GOD MAKE 4 YEAR OLD GIRLS FOR 4 YEAR OLD BOYS…AND 25 YEAR OLD MEN FOR 25 YEAR OLD WOMAN…STICK TO YOUR OWN AGE GROUPS…YOU WOULD BE BETTER OFF RMEMBER YOU ARE TRYING TO FIND SOMEONE TO SPEND THE REST OF YOUR LIFE WITH…THIS ISN’T FOR MENS SEXUAL GRATIFICATION…LADIES…FIND A GUY YOUR OWN AGE OR YOUNGER…BEST SPERM QUALITY IS IN 20’S !
i AM A WOMAN AND I’M ONLY 26 AND OLDER MEN DISGUST ME EWW.
YOU MEN ITS THE SAME FOR US WOMEN…A MAN SHOULD MARRY A WOMAN HIS OWN AGE, THE OLDER MEN GET THE HARDER IT IS, MOST YOUNG WOMEN UNDER 30 DO NOT WANT SOME OLD DUDE…MENTALLY WOMAN CHANGE SO MUCH…HERE IS ANOTHER STUDY…WHY MEN AND WOMAN SHOULD BE THE SAME AGE, THEY DO GO THOUGH CHANGES ROUGLY THE SAME TIME:
[D: Copyrighted content removed (the use of lower case characters was a tip off), but I found what appears to be the source here.]
Dalrock:
are you letting these last few comments through for the entertainment value?
Do I need to get out my hamsterlator again?
[D: You don’t buy that LIA is really a 26 year old woman who just happens to harbor great resentment against middle aged men for being able to date and make babies with other women her age?]
Holy. Cow.
I for one am glad to witness the most disturbing thoughts of women afraid of becoming older. Just how screwed up can a woman be? There is almost no limit to it.
I don’t think much of women as a result, but on the bright side, they rarely disappoint me.
“that after the age of 39, men are 7 per cent less likely with each advancing year to help produce a perfect fertilised egg.”
So men are fertile well into their 50’s …
LIA, Tony Randall and Larry King would like to have a word with you
Don’t worry, I’m sure with their charming attitudes LIA and jojo have men lining up to marry them.
ANOTHER CHILD SUFFERING FROM DWARFISM…FATHER WAS 59 THE WOMAN WAS ONLY 21 AGAIN…WHAT A WASTE…
Perhaps we could exile undesirables. A dwarf couldn’t possibly live a happy life!
Very good advice, Dalrock! Except I doubt that it’s necessary for her to have a man order for her.
“No 21st century woman with an IQ over 70 would do any of this or put up with any of this”
Really? I agree, but you’ve spoken pretty strongly about how women even crave men to rule them. Paige, it seems, basically applied her own extreme experience to her advice, like you have.
The thing to look out for is not old men, but men with a large cranial circumference. A dwarf would be a pleasant change over one of the round headed monsters my husband spawns…Also, make sure to marry someone with a good sense of direction because you don’t want those kids facing the wrong way when they come out.
*snerk*
Hi. I consider. Myself to be a woman in my 30’s and a 9 currently on a scale from 1-11. However something that came along with turning 30 (besides a crash in my metabolism which was real fun. I never had to excersiize and never weighed above 110,now I have not only passed the age of 30, but I have also out on 15 pounds) I have also turned 31 and have been put into this class of ” desperate woman over 30″ I was with someone for 6 &1/2 years and would not marry him, nor would he me. We loved each other and still do, however now we love and respect each other in a way ex’s can after time, hopefully the way first husbands and wives of this generation should be blessed with when 50% of them divorce. Some people might think it is strange to have this relationship with him, however.. ” you never re marry your first husband” and we respect each other, and have seen each other threw so much, we just weren’t mean to spend out lives with each other.. We both learned a lot, and grew, with in the relationship. After we broke up ( myself being a monogamist my entire life) I decided not to enter another committed relationship. I decided to stay “single” to just deal with my self, my life, my friends, all me ( aka no boy obsessing ‘will he call?’ bs ) for two years before I felt i was ready to enter into a committed relationship with anyone else. With me entering in this response I just wanted to say, that not all women in their 30’s are bitter, or “something went wrong” or our clock is ticking anymore than perhaps a man around our age. I am just ready to find someone who will be my friend and continue on the journey of life with. I am more prepared now than I would have been in my 20’s to handel the compromises a relationship that will last “forever” takes. More prepared to take the next steps with a partner, and actually deal with the thought of one day having children with someone. Perhaps I will find an alpha or a beta guy. The most important thing to me is that I can trust him, we can make each other laugh, and he is kind. ( and amazing sex life would be dope as well) I just think that sometimes women get a lot of stress put on them at this age, and honestly; we tend to feel the same way towards dating as men our age do. I would rather sit home and google random shit then go on a date with a guy who aggressively picked me up at bar. Honestly woman are now having babies at 40. Which means I (at least ) have 9 YEARS!! That is more then enough time at this piont in my life to find some human being that I can see spending the rest of my life with!! So.. Bottom line.. I think our generation needs to relax. Cut the pressure on the woman, and I bet they will relax and not seem as intense as they do.. ( granted we shouldn’t just date ‘willy nilly like’) I honestly know women that can cook, clean, and wait for a man to open the door for them, as well enjoy ironing and doing laundry ( i actually do!!) and i know woman that don’t and that is ok too.. As far as the men.. We aren’t all bad, or mean, or damaged.. We are in fact on the same page as you.. Just viewed differently because of media,sicail, and familail influences; as well as hostorical pressures. So please when you eventualy ask how old we are, don’t judge based on that. Judge us based on the vibe you get, beacuse this is an ever changing generation, in fact the first generation that has this many single woman in thier 30’s than ever before… We are all just trying to find love, and comapnionship…as you guys would like to find as well.. Someone to be there for you during stressful times, rocky times, and happy times..Don’t just write us off because we are older than 27, because at 27, I would have broken your heart and left you in tears. Now I want to hear your stories, and wipe away your fears..Also, don’t judge me on any spelling or grammatical errors, I decided to not proofread this.
I see comments from women who write that women should marry men who are around their own age. I don’t disagree with that, but if a woman plans on doing this, she really needs to put forth some effort when she is in her late 20s to find a guy her age who wants to marry her. Women in their mid-30s or later almost seem shocked when the level of attention they receive from all men, including those their own age, plummets as those women get older. I suppose this is part of the reason why some women do become nicer and more pleasant when they are older because they cannot get away with being a bitch and having a crappy personality anymore like they could when they were younger.
Jojo (May 24, 2012), you are very naive if you think that a 26 year old man really wants to marry a 30 year old woman unless the woman is far more attractive than what that man thinks he is generally capable of getting. You might have success dating a younger man like that, but men even at that age absolutely do weigh a woman’s age when looking for a marriage partner.
Jls,
Here is a male’s perspective.
Spend the twenties listening to women’s stories about what bastards most men are. See women friends date, sleep with and cohabit with said men. Relationship breaks up. Women seeks emotional support from friend-zoned men. Rinse and repeat.
Men get to age thirty. Work has often become more rewarding. Have more confidence. Women friends of same age have often last ten years with douchebag men, thanks to their possession of dark triad traits.
In your case, why did it take six years of your life to work out he wasn’t right for you? That is a loss of time you may never recover from. And having had all that time to ‘find yourself’, why should any guy put up with being told he’s not good enough for a girl, until she is 30, 32 or 35? Being in relationship is not about being perfect beforehand. It is about growing together, man leading, first mate assisting.
As women age, they will get less attention from the most desirable men. As one of the normal, less desirable men, i can report that being ignored for year by quite average women, being used for emotional succour only when needed and having no companionship demonstrates the me-first attitude of most younger women. Past behaviour is the best predictor of future behaviour. Older women are simply selfish in more socially acceptable ways.
Women say they want men they can trust, laugh with and expect kindness from. By virtue of their age, almost all younger women have beta men around them that offer these qualities. It is a lie. Women want men that excite them, are socially dominant to them and to other people.
By the age of thirty, too many women have spent ten or more years espousing one set of qualities whilst actively pursuing a completely different grabbag.
I am being polite. But quite frankly, some of us took longer than others to discern the lies. You should not be surprised.
An observer, +1. IN JLS we have a hamsterrific woman who is starting to figure out the truth.
She is honest about one thing, though. Did you catch this:
“Don’t just write us off because we are older than 27, because at 27, I would have broken your heart and left you in tears.”
Allow me to hamsterlate: “When I was 27 I would never have even considered stooping so low as to date someone like you. But I would have f**ked your douchebag friends and their out of town alpha friends. They would have banged the shit out of me, and I would have loved every minute of it.”
OK, JLS. I won’t judge you on your spelling or grammatical errors. I will get out the hamsterlator so I can decipher what you’re really saying.
Here’s portions of JLS’ post. with the hamsterlations in quotes.
Hi. I consider. Myself to be a woman in my 30′s and a 9 currently on a scale from 1-11. However something that came along with turning 30 (besides a crash in my metabolism which was real fun. I never had to excersiize and never weighed above 110,now I have not only passed the age of 30, but I have also out on 15 pounds) I have also turned 31 and have been put into this class of ” desperate woman over 30″
Hamsterlation: “I’m 31 and a 6 at best. My girlfriends tell me I’m a 9, but I know that’s not true because I lie to them about how hot they are. I’ve hit The Wall and I know it, because I’m starting to get fat. For reasons I’m about to tell you, I really am getting desperate.”
_____________________
I was with someone for 6 &1/2 years and would not marry him, nor would he me. We loved each other and still do, however now we love and respect each other in a way ex’s can after time, hopefully the way first husbands and wives of this generation should be blessed with when 50% of them divorce. Some people might think it is strange to have this relationship with him, however.. ” you never re marry your first husband” and we respect each other, and have seen each other threw so much, we just weren’t mean to spend out lives with each other.. We both learned a lot, and grew, with in the relationship. After we broke up ( myself being a monogamist my entire life) I decided not to enter another committed relationship. I decided to stay “single” to just deal with my self, my life, my friends, all me ( aka no boy obsessing ‘will he call?’ bs ) for two years before I felt i was ready to enter into a committed relationship with anyone else.
Hamsterlation: “I was with the love of my life for 6 1/2 years. I practically threw myself at him, begged him to marry me. I fed him, f**ked him, supported him, washed his skid marked underwear. I was (and am) so totally in love with him I would have (and did, and will) let him do anything he wanted to me. He is superalpha, and all the shit he put me through has been totally worth it. Though we broke up we still have sex when he wants to. Hell, I’d sex him whenever he wants, because he is just so damn alpha and he pushes my buttons like no one else before or since. I’d crawl over broken glass to f**k him, regardless of who I was with. Any man who comes afterwards will be compared to my superalpha. No one will ever measure up. I’m still not over him, and probably never will be. I am living, breathing proof that five minutes of alpha is better than 5 years of beta.”
___________________________
With me entering in this response I just wanted to say, that not all women in their 30′s are bitter, or “something went wrong” or our clock is ticking anymore than perhaps a man around our age. I am just ready to find someone who will be my friend and continue on the journey of life with. I am more prepared now than I would have been in my 20′s to handel the compromises a relationship that will last “forever” takes. More prepared to take the next steps with a partner, and actually deal with the thought of one day having children with someone. Perhaps I will find an alpha or a beta guy. The most important thing to me is that I can trust him, we can make each other laugh, and he is kind. ( and amazing sex life would be dope as well)
Hamsterlation: “I’m so damn desperate to find a man I don’t know what to do. My superalpha uses me as his personal f**ktoy. I’m 31 and getting fat. I want a new man to be my friend first. I’m going to make him wait for sex because I’m going to do it right this time and I want him to respect me as a person. I wasn’t ready for a committed relationship in my 20s because I didn’t have to commit. I had all the men I could ever want, plus my superalpha. But now I’m running out of options, and time, and looks, and K-Y jelly, and I can’t even get a college guy with 6 pack abs to take me home and jackhammer me for a night. Damn. Well, an average beta boy who will work his ass off for me so I can quit my sucky job and pump out babies before it’s too late is looking pretty good.”
Continued:
I just think that sometimes women get a lot of stress put on them at this age, and honestly; we tend to feel the same way towards dating as men our age do. I would rather sit home and google random shit then go on a date with a guy who aggressively picked me up at bar. Honestly woman are now having babies at 40. Which means I (at least ) have 9 YEARS!! That is more then enough time at this piont in my life to find some human being that I can see spending the rest of my life with!! So.. Bottom line.. I think our generation needs to relax. Cut the pressure on the woman, and I bet they will relax and not seem as intense as they do.. ( granted we shouldn’t just date ‘willy nilly like’) I honestly know women that can cook, clean, and wait for a man to open the door for them, as well enjoy ironing and doing laundry ( i actually do!!) and i know woman that don’t and that is ok too..
Hamsterlation: “I’m under a shitload of stress because I can see my looks fading by the day, I’m unmarried, and I am Scared. To. Death. that I won’t find some dumbf**k guy I can dupe into marrying me. I’m so damn frightened I googled “Unmarried and over 30″ and it brought me to this Dalrock dude’s website. Wait a minute – I’ve got time to have babies. After all, those celebrities had babies after 40. Sure, she had $50k to spend on IVF and fertility treatments. And my cousin’s friend did too. If they can do it, I can do it. I just need a good beta boy I can trick into wifing me up. So, don’t push me. I don’t need the pressure. I’ll get around to sleeping with you when I feel like it, beta boy. I’ve just got to work up my fantasies so I can let you put your little thing in me, hopefully without retching.”
____________________________
As far as the men.. We aren’t all bad, or mean, or damaged.. We are in fact on the same page as you.. Just viewed differently because of media,sicail, and familail influences; as well as hostorical pressures. So please when you eventualy ask how old we are, don’t judge based on that. Judge us based on the vibe you get, beacuse this is an ever changing generation, in fact the first generation that has this many single woman in thier 30′s than ever before… We are all just trying to find love, and comapnionship…as you guys would like to find as well.. Someone to be there for you during stressful times, rocky times, and happy times..Don’t just write us off because we are older than 27, because at 27, I would have broken your heart and left you in tears. Now I want to hear your stories, and wipe away your fears..Also, don’t judge me on any spelling or grammatical errors, I decided to not proofread this.
Hamsterlation: “So, I’m getting around to finally accepting that superalpha is never going to marry me and father my babies. I’m on the same page with you men because I’ve finally figured out that I totally f**ked up my life and wasted it on a man who used me like a washcloth, but to whom I am hopelessly bonded to, and I don’t know if I can ever break free from it. It’s not about age. We want you to love us and be with us, no matter how damaged we really are. Don’t expect great sex because I won’t be giving it to you. If you’re lucky it’ll be once a week, right before bedtime, with the lights off. I need to sex you that way so I can stomach it and so I can roll over and go to sleep and try to forget about it. And while I sleep I’ll have visions of superalpha dancing in my head. And I need you to be there for me. Don’t expect me to be there for you. I’ll be waiting by my cell phone for superalpha’s call, for our bimonthly secret trysts that I absolutely LIVE for and you’ll never find out about.”
“Oh, and one last thing: don’t think for one minute that I would have given you so much as the time of day if I didn’t have to. I’m only dating you because I can see the window closing, and I’m running out of time and options. Back in the day, I wouldn’t have let you even look at my smokin’ body and killer personality. You couldn’t have paid me even to be seen in public with your sorry ass four years ago. You’re only getting this because superalpha won’t marry me, the other alphas won’t f**k me, and you’re the best I can do. And don’t you ever forget it, beta boy.”
@Deti: SPOT ON +1!
I’d never want to take the place of a man who managed to get a woman to yearn so long for him.
Reminds me of the joke:
A man walks out to the street and catches a taxi just going by. He gets into the taxi, and the cabbie says, ‘Perfect timing.. You’re just like Frank.
Passenger: ‘Who?’
Cabbie: ‘Frank Feldman.. He’s a guy who did everything right all the time Like my coming along when you needed a cab, things happened like that to Frank Feldman every single time.’
Passenger: ‘There are always a few clouds over everybody.’
Cabbie: ‘Not Frank Feldman. He was a terrific athlete. He could have won the Grand-Slam at tennis. He could golf with the pros.. He sang like an opera baritone and danced like a Broadway star and you should have heard him play the piano. He was an amazing guy.’
Passenger: Sounds like he was something really special.
Cabbie: ‘There’s more. He had a memory like a computer. He remembered everybody’s birthday. He knew all about wine, which foods to order and which fork to eat them with. He could fix anything. Not like me. I change a fuse, and the whole street blacks out. But Frank Feldman, could do everything right.
Passenger: ‘Wow, some guy then.’
Cabbie: ‘He always knew the quickest way to go in traffic and avoid traffic jams. Not like me, I always seem to get stuck in them. But Frank, he never made a mistake, and he really knew how to treat a woman and make her feel good. He would never answer her back even if she was in the wrong; and his clothing was always immaculate, shoes highly polished too – He was the perfect man! He never made a mistake. No one could ever measure up to Frank Feldman.’
Passenger: ‘An amazing fellow. How did you meet him?’
Cabbie: “Well, I never actually met Frank. He died and I married his Ex’ wife.”
PRay:
Thanks. Did you see how much JLS wrote about her superalpha, and the way she wrote about him, waxing eloquent and rhapsodic? Her beautiful memories of him? Her “Love and respect” for him? How they had been “threw” (LOL) so much together and love each other “like exes”?
The dead giveaway is how these women come on here and write a paragraph about The One That Got Away. Star-Crossed Lovers. We were So in Love but It Was Not Meant To Be.
JLS is still in love with Superalpha. She can deny it all she wants, but that dude is still in her head and her heart. He owns her, and he always will.
P Ray:
I write this stuff because men need to understand what they are REALLY Hearing when women say things like this.
The other dead giveaway is when a woman talks incessantly about what a total worthless dickhead asshole scumbag her ex BF or ex husband is. “That dumbass guy. I supported that deadbeat. I gave my whole life for him and he never appreciated me. I know he cheated on me but I’ll never be able to prove it. I hate him. I’m glad I kicked that ass to the curb. He was ugly, gross, unshaven, unambitious, didn’t want anything for his life, didn’t want anything for our life together. Such a stupid asshole, and I was stupid for staying with him.”
Hamsterlation: “I loved that guy. He could f**k me like nobody’s business. He made me come so hard I couldn’t see straight for two days afterward. He was so incredibly hot, with a bangin’ muscular body and a c**k that fit me perfectly. Sure, he was broke and stupid, but I couldn’t have cared less because that guy could bang like a king. That made all the difference. It’s why I put up with his shit for so long. It’s also why I can’t stop thinking about him, dreaming about him, letting him live rent-free in my head. It’s also why I’m talking about him to you now, because I’m trying damn hard to justify and make sense of why I’m with you. Please, please, please qualify yourself hard and well so my hamster will shut the f**k up and I can finally make peace with the fact that I had no choice but to end things with the one and only man who could ever do me just right.”
The moment a man hears from a woman about how she was always “unlucky in love” …
he’d better understand that he’s going to have to put up with her endless comparison about how he never measures up to her ex.
The person-to-person example of feminism in action, where the macro version is “women NOW are getting justice for the women in the PAST for what the men in the PAST did to them … from the men NOW”.
The person-to-person version is “all my previous boyfriends were crap, you’d better COMPENSATE me for my heartbreak”.
Notice also that these spiels are always about a man who was a complete worthless moron. But it took her a matter of YEARS to figure that out, despite the fact that she completely interwove her life with his, lived with him, ate with him, lived her life with him, shared a bed with him, and took on the role of “wife”.
If he’s a worthless moron, is an average woman really unable to figure that out in a few weeks or months?
Does she have to move in with him, sleep with him, and act like a wife before she gets with the program and figures out what a guy is about?
Or is something else going on? Could it be she stayed with him because of the great sex?
JSL, Lia and jojo, what on earth did I just read from you bunch of angry, bitching yentas? Thanks to Deti for sorting through that trash! I couldn’t even stomach it.
I’ll keep saying it. No woman over 30 is worth marriage. None, no exceptions.
A possible quick rebuttal to her “tale of woe”:
“those guys sound so terrible, how were you ever able to have sex with them?” 🙂
Deti,
Priceless.
I did catch the age 27 thing. Have heard that line before, but prior to the red pill had not understood it fully, except to mean ‘get lost’.
Thanks again for the expert translation.
For the benefit of the people who may, like JLS, stumble on this and assert that she was fair and honest, and an observer, Deti and Feminist Hater are just too harsh (and they are, but I hope your parents were too when you were growing up, that’s a mark they care), I’ll add a little comment that is maybe a little more neutral:
“As far as the men.. We aren’t all bad, or mean, or damaged.. We are in fact on the same page as you.. Just viewed differently because of media,sicail, and familail influences; as well as hostorical pressures.”
And this is the faulty point. No, men and women at that age are not on the same page: biologically, mentally and emotionally, they really aren’t. JLS assumes she will find a man in a similar position to her: he was hot and popular in his 20’s, spent 7 years with a girl who “wasn’t right for him” and is now looking for a slightly less passionate love story, a life companion. The truth is, this guy doesn’t exist. If he was hot and popular in his 20’s, he’s either still an alpha player, or is already happily married, because he got to choose the best wife. If he wanted marriage, and spent 7 years with a girl who didn’t (highly unlikely), he can bounce back now and pick a younger girl because he’s still as attractive, if not more so, than in his 20’s. If he is looking for a less intense love story and a life companion, why would he marry? He’s in no rush, and he probably saw what married life is for a man these days.
I repeat, there is no man who will be at the same page as JLS is, so the best thing to do is find out who’s left, understand what “page” he’s on (unattractive beta who never had success with the ladies, guy who likes the single life, divorced guy looking for companionship but tired of marriage) and understand that what you want isn’t what he wants, and unless you compromise, you won’t get anything at all. For the beta guy, the compromise might be with someone who repulses you, for the other two, it may mean forgetting about marriage altogether. Your luckiest shot would probably be a very religious widower: he is single, not by choice, and needs to be married to live with someone. But guys like these are one-in-a million, so understand your prospects.
zykos:
Pretty spot on, I’d say. JLS’ options to find a long term mate are dwindling fast. Her best bets are divorced men in their 40s and who want to remarry. Unfortunately, she has almost nothing to bargain with. She seems to be in shape and probably slender, and thus has some attractiveness. But she is 31, wasted 7 years of her life with a man with whom marriage was never going to happen, and then spent another 2 years “getting over” him.
It seems to be a common problem among women that they believe there is an abundance of good looking, wealthy, interesting and attractive men who will be waiting with arms outstretched when they are done riding the carousel. The dating and SMP world looks very different and much more constricted to a 31 year old woman than to a 21 YO woman. At 21, the world is her oyster. Her SMP power is positively immense. And she has no idea that mother nature just gave her a nuclear weapon that, if not used correctly, will explode on her. She can have almost anything she wants: the carousel, hot alpha sex (as long as she isn’t a hassle and doesn’t mind sharing), a boyfriend (or more likely, a series of BFs in rapid fire succession); all expense paid dates and evenings out; expensive gifts, even perhaps a marriage proposal if she remains with a man long enough.
Now take that same woman and fast forward 10 years. At 31, the same woman’s view of the SMP is very different. She’s racked up a double digit partner count, consisting of one or two serious BFs of a year or more, four or five short term relationships of 6 months or less, and a few hookups and one night stands. She never stayed with anyone long enough to get married. She was with one of her BFs for a couple of years, but he never proposed and she broke with him when he cheated on her.
She’s either hit The Wall or is screaming towards it. It’s getting harder and harder to keep her weight down. She’s starting to show some facial lines. She still has some attractiveness, but her hair is dull and overstyled, her teeth are yellowing, her eyes don’t sparkle like they used to, and her skin has taken on a pallor. She doesn’t generate nearly the interest from men she used to. Now, the only men who ask her out are divorced men in their 40s and 50s, never married men in their 30s who work cubicle jobs and earn less than she does, and the players. The fancy dinners and entertainment are a thing of the past, though. Now she buys her own drinks half the time and rarely gets a dinner. More often her dates are “hanging out” at her house or his; or drinks for an hour or two. The players just want pump and dumps, but she knows that scene and has tired of it. Her last sex partner was a guy who was so smooth and talkative at the bar. He really liked her, or so she thought. She’d seen him around before. She was so taken with this guy who was giving her all this attention. She was attracted to him and thought he would be a lot of fun to date. So she went back to his place, they had sex, she left the next morning, and hasn’t heard from him since.
So she’s limited to the unattractive men, the divorced men. Men down on their luck. Men she wouldn’t have been seen in public with maybe five years ago. They take her for drinks, and talk boring shit about their jobs, their kids, their stupid hobbies. She doesn’t like any of them. It’s not exciting. There’s no fun, no drama, no intrigue.
Or she wants to get married and have kids, but she just can’t see spending the rest of her life with one of these lonely hearts. She can’t see having kids with the IT guy, the ditch digger, the landscaper, the nerdy engineer, or the plumber. She sure as hell doesn’t want to be a step mom to his kids or a wife number 2.
She seems to think there are a lot of great men out there just waiting for her. There aren’t. As you said, her choices are going to be divorced men, unattractive men unlucky with women, or alpha pump & dumpers. She might find a few divorced or unattractive men offering marriage, but these will be rare. She will not be viewed by most as marriage material. If all she wants is a relationship and not marriage, this will probably widen her choices a small amount.
Once again, the moral of the story is that for marriage, time is not on women’s side.
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The way I see it, sex is always payed for, there are exceptions. Buying a dinner or taking a girl out with the intention to eventually lay a girl is paying her for sex, that can be twisted into any fairy-tale but in the end, there is an underlying monetary presence, always. It doesn’t matter if it’s a half-day date, or if it takes a 6 dates, or months or years. After sex has happened, it can be deemed as monetary transaction in some way or form.
Why is this important? There are two major reasons, the first one being the obvious tradition of the male paying for most of the cost in the relationship. I think the roles have to really be brought to a 50-50. Guy can pay for first date or second, but by third date there should be a split no exceptions. If not, the girl should be dumped, end of story. The other major reason is the option outside a prenuptial agreement, again when things are not 50-50.
And especially for those women in their 30s and up, these rules should be very strict because again, they got to play the field in their 20s. And likely, many of those dates they did not have to pay for. I’m generalizing here and of course, the female reading this is the exception. You madam reading this, are an exception for obvious reasons.
The last major reason that would cause dispute, is that while women think that they can offer sex as a prized item in a relationship, please be aware that in these modern times, sex is very easily attainable with women that rate far above the average in physical looks. They might come with a hefty price-tag over the long run, but they can deliver a superior service, and without the mind games.
Full disclosure:
I am a 30-year-old woman (probably an objective 7.5 in her prime, let’s say 6 now) who spent her 20s in a relationship with a really nice omega with all of the qualities that women say they want in a partner. We were engaged and I called it off six weeks before the wedding because I was uncontrollably attracted to an unavailable alpha at work. (When I say “unavailable,” I am referring to a relationship- he made himself very available for the pump-n-dump I eventually received). I did break up with him before I cheated.
Lost a bunch of weight, got some misleading feedback that led me to overestimate my rapidly waning SMV, spent a year with another alpha who was 6 years younger, til he dumped me on the grounds of conflicting religions and my not wanting children (his words- my version is that he was tired of putting up with my eight-month-long saga of crippling depression which manifested as daily uncontrollable crying fits and the inability to function, and couldn’t handle it anymore- gosh, can’t imagine why). Suddenly I realize that the pool has dried up and I am running out of time. I am not getting younger, I am not getting prettier, I don’t have all the time in the world and by this time the pickings are already slim. I recognize that it is time to adjust my standards downwardly and do so. Three months with a really unattractive alpha until I raged out on him about my suspicions that he was continuing to do his lazy-eyed ex and dumped him over text message, and a week later I meet The One.
This guy IS the Mr. Perfect that everyone keeps saying doesn’t exist. He’s a gorgeous and confident man with awesome abs, great job, owns property, also doesn’t want kids, seems to be somehow not aware that he’s an objective 9.5 (sorry, angry short dudes, but it’s because he’s under 6′ ) to the extent that he’s actually developed an enjoyable personality as well. The sex is amazing. Within a week and a half, he asked me to be exclusive; eight months later, to move in with him; two months after that, a shared puppy; now we’re at now and he’s asked me to visit his ancestral homeland in the Midwest to meet his childhood friends and spend time with his parents. Things are obviously going well and this guy is obviously committed to me for some bizarre reason. In my wildest dreams I would not have thought that this guy was in my league at all, so I want to a. keep him, and b. lock the shit down. He can do way better, I have no doubts, and before he realizes this and decides to act on it, I want to marry this man.
Don’t get me wrong; I KNOW I am lucky. I KNOW I have defied all odds. I cook in a frilly apron, bake special brownies when he has a bad day, listen to his problems and only offer advice when asked for it, make an effort to be interested in things that are important to him, know what his tastes are in lingerie and wear it EVERY DAY, stay on good terms with his family, and try my hardest to be a crazy bitch as infrequently as possible. I pay for dates, give thoughtful gifts (helicopter lessons), and shower him with praises of his masculinity for every dead spider and caulked faucet. I have a good job that pays well. I express my gratitude for everything he does for me on a daily basis (he reciprocates). I think I am doing a fair job as a girlfriend. He told me on our second date that he was not interested in being a father at any point in his life, which is great because I’m not interested in kids, either. I want to marry his wonderful ass and keep him forever. It does not get any better than him; even at 21 I would not have thought I could snag someone like this. The other fish in the shrinking sea are, by comparison, dead mackerel.
So… how do I encourage that to happen? HOW DO I MAKE THIS MAN MY HUSBAND? (Though it may be true, it would be unhelpful to say that I shouldn’t have agreed to move in with him. I agree, sort of. I was reluctant to do so at the time, I did it anyway with the understanding that I was not interested in “having fun”, and was looking for a lifetime partner and that living in together would be considered an evaluation of our potential for marital compatibility.) I’m hopeful that I have not been delusional in my self-assessment, but welcome any translation if I have.
Pillish:
I’ll take everything you say at face value. Here’s my assessment:
If this guy is truly everything you say he is, he will have options out the wazoo. Your only hope of marrying him is to be nice to him, submit to him in everything, and give him everything he wants without questioning and without argument. If he wants hot monkey sex every night, he gets hot monkey sex every night. If he wants BJs with you standing on your head and contorting yourself into a pretzel, then you had best find a way to give him that. (I exaggerate, but only a little.)
You must be nice to him. You must be pleasant to him AT ALL TIMES. You must be on your game as a wife and sex partner Every. Single. Day. And I do mean Every. Single. Day. The minute you start shit testing him, hassling him or bothering him, you’re history. He will dump you like a hot potato if he sees even one HINT of your past.
And while I’m on that subject — you’re a trainwreck waiting to happen. Your 20s with an omega? A broken engagement for a pump & dump? A history of alpha pump & dumps? A relationship with a younger alpha, which relationship was going nowhere? A history of mental illness? A display of near-BPD with a three-month relationship and accusations of infidelity?
What on earth makes you think you can keep this tube of wonderful? He’s going to see your mess ups. You have to disclose your past. If you don’t, he’ll find out about it eventually. When he finds out you frauded and deceived him into marriage, all hell will break loose.
Again, I ask — what makes you think you can keep him? He’s the one looking downward, not you. You’re the one with the lower value, not him.
Indeed, despite her desperate pleas if he wants her to become anything more than a sexual girlfriend he’ll ask her to marry him at his own pace. It doesn’t matter if the words you say are right, or how many meals you cook, whether it’ll be something more is entirely dependent on him.
But yeah, if it does happen then it’s an unhappy marriage abound, although I can’t see that scenario, It’s safe to assume if he was looking to get married, considering his position/options, that would already be the case.
Tokyo:
I agree. The only way Pillish gets this guy is to ultimatum him and for him to cave. If he’s as great as Pillish says he is, he won’t ask to get married. He’s already getting everything he wants (sex, her acting as wife) and nothing he doesn’t want (being locked into a legal commitment).
@Deti
But if one was not to take Pillish Redhead’s sob-story at face value this I think is what you get:
Firstly she has a relationship (a mini-marriage really and for nearly ten years) with a perfectly fine guy (now down-graded as women always tend to with ex’s, to Omega – that’s not nice) and puts on weight as contented people can do. She is a bit of a serial monogamist so Mr Omega is ditched – perhaps wisely.
Secondly throws herself at some guy who later thinks better of it. Such is life, if you slut it up, I’m afraid. Now she is bf less; so,
Thirdly she cradle snatches another guy which means easy sex for him I suppose but still pining for the previous guy I’d guess and uses the youngster as an emotional tampon (Having experienced that; that is not a nice thing to do to a guy). She says he blames it on mutually incompatible religions ( why am I getting the feeling Pillish is Jewish?) Then there seems to be an unattractive Alpha – is that not a contradiction in terms?
Fourthly she meets Mr Right who sounds to me just slightly self-absorbed and frankly using Pillish(no wonder he seems so perfect) but this latest relationship is beginning to look like the relationship with Mr Omega – just going on and on, neither wanting children. She sounds rather possesive.
I’d say, Mr Perfect could not be as perfect as she claims – no man can be that good. She seems to have a habit of pedestalising men. She also tends to have little confidence in herself partly as one can see from these grasping relationships and partly from being only too happy to see herself as becoming less attractive and over the hill which is nonsense. Now however she seeks our advice as to how to force Mr Perfect into wedlock. Desperation emanates from what she writes as well as what I suspect is a controlling temperament. More selfishness, I say, but then why throw yourself at a guy and treat him as if he were China and might easily break. This does not look like THE ONE to me at all.
Thirty is still young. I bet that when she does eventually fall pregnant she will realise that Mr Perfect was not THE ONE and that she wanted children all along.
Of course everything I just wrote could be entirely wrong. What it does reveal to me is the mess people get into when they put sex first, and marriage and family second.
Opus:
I see you have your own Q36B Space Hamsterlator!
In the (unlikely) event she did all suggested, the guy would still be nuts to marry.
If he did, she loses all incentive to continue the act. Marriage 2.0 simply is not worth the risk. Any single man with substantial assets has everything to lose.
The most likely outcome is the relationship will persist until her imperfections are clear. Then she will get traded for a younger, hotter girl.
The logical outcome of nofault divorce will be less marriage and more cat owners.
@Deti
Hahahahaha
Observer:
Yep. Pillish is a trainwreck. He will find out about her past. She’s much, much too big a marriage risk.
P Ray writes: “I’d never want to take the place of a man who managed to get a woman to yearn so long for him.”
A friend of mine once made the mistake of marrying a woman like this. Immediately after the wedding (or just as they were setting out on their honeymoon – I forget which it was) she made him drive to her ex’s old house so she could look at it and sigh, “HE used to live there.” Small wonder that she ran off with Mr. Perfect a few years down the road.
Great forum. First………what deti says is true ladies. I’m a 44 year old male……my only child turns 20 next week. There is NO WAY IN HELL men in my age group have any ‘yearning’ to get married …. you’re drinking the Kool-Aid to believe this garbage. Deti’s post of June 26 is spot on……. why in the hell would men in my age group, that are good looking, have better bodies than most 20 year olds in the gym and have earning power WANT to give it all up to marry a woman??
You better have some pretty compelling reasons….. but here’s a secret: there aren’t any. If you made it out of your 20’s unmarried….you blew it. By the time men hit their 30’s, we have hobbies, more confidence and careers…….. attractive women are a dime a dozen. Attractive women that will give sex at any moment are a dime a dozen. WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO OFFER US?
Western societal laws make the decision to marry for a man borderline insane. We meet and date women in their 20’s all the time. Its ridiculous…..and at times, annoying. Take a look at online dating sites in your city…..if the woman is at all attractive, she is probably in her 20’s and/or the profile is FAKE…… what guy is going to want to sign up to raise some other guy’s three kids? Its like I taught my son, “no vagina is made of gold”………. and considering that is ALL most women offer these days, they better pray that prostitution doesn’t become legalized…. because there is an entire subsection of society that will be more than happy to have sex with a hot woman and pay her to leave.
Delusion. Its everywhere. Friday nights in your cities hottest night spots. Go take a look. Women stopped offering that which we men actually value a long time ago: FEMININITY and NURTURING…….. you’re all too hung up on being the next Kim Kardashian…..
Good luck! History will write about this period in history with a dim, dim light……. women are screwing the pooch with their crappy attitudes.
This thread has been a great read… and I really did read it’s entirety. I’m a man in my late thirties and have gotten extremely comfortable with being single, and until reading this thread thought it was only my dad and stepmom who understood how it is that one gets comfortable being single. I’m the guy who as his ex girlfriends started turning thirty started wanting to get back in touch with him. Which I gave consideration a couple of times, found they hadn’t changed and were looking for a placeholder, and just stopped giving consideration to any other exes, because it kept playing out the same. You hit the nail on the head with what it is that men would like to see, and don’t see enough of, when they’re pondering a marriage partner. First, a good and humble attitude (i.e. not jaded and not scornful of men in general) and second, femininity.
The thing for me that’s annoying when I am looking, is to come across women who want the world, but clearly don’t offer it. There are lots of 4’s to 6’s that think they’re worthy of the kind of worship that I wouldn’t even give to a 10+. And they seem to see relationships in that dynamic, woman does nothing, guy worships and does woman’s every whim. They’ve apparently misconstrued the whole confidence thing to mean if they act like they should be worshipped that they will end up being worshipped. When the reality is that nothing could be further from the truth.
Ah yes….the infamous ex-girlfriends coming back around …. what man hasn’t experienced that? You can see hundreds of unattractive women with outrageous demands on any dating site.
Daring, CallMeTom:
What you’re describing is becoming slightly more typical of many men in areas urban and rural. But most men are getting married. According to stats Dalrock has put up and analyzed here in expert fashion, men’s age at first marriage is creeping up and the number of men never marrying is creeping up too. But the latter figure is not shooting or spiking upward, so you can’t really say there’s a marriage strike.
I’m hearing more and more men say these things:
1. Married men who are one and done. If they ever find themselves single for any reason, they’d never marry again despite conventional wisdom that says men just do better, live longer and are happier when married.
2. Single men who have sworn off marriage. A few become PUAs and players, still more TRY their hand and fail at playerhood, still more go their own way.
3. Most women aren’t date-able, and certainly aren’t marriageable. Many of them are unattractive, unfeminine and simply not worth the investment. They are more interested in being “hot” and hypersexual than in being pretty and feminine.
4. Many women have nothing to offer other than their bodies. They can’t cook. They can’t keep even one bedroom clean, much less a house. They are grindingly boring to be around. Their only interests are custom manicures, hairdos, Real Housewives, Dance Moms, and all things Kardashian.
5. Despite their offering little, these women demand much. They demand the looks of David Beckham, the abs of Brad Pitt, the charm of George Clooney, and the money of Warren Buffett. Women who are HB5s who have spent a few years banging hot alpha 8s and 9s are genuinely flummoxed that one of these men won’t drop to one knee and offer a ring and a date. Then they weep and cry bitter disappointed tears that the only men willing to marry them are beta 5s and 6s. All of these men would make fine husbands and would walk her down the aisle tomorrow, but are rejected because they’re not hotbody alphas with six pack abs, rock hard c*cks, a BMW in the garage and a six figure income.
I’d rather be contentedly single then miserably married, but I still hope one day to at least be contentedly married. I don’t think I’d ever manage as a player, most of my relationships have started with semi-instant chemistry, so I’ve never really learned the game. It’s good to know your limitations right?
Based on some of my friends’ wives, #4 is a pretty common reality. I can cook and clean, how is it that so many women haven’t figured out how to? Likewise, it seems like the fathers are more bonded to their children than the mothers 3/4’s of the time. Also, in regards to #3 and #4, it is a curious thing that women say that they want emotional/ intellectual intimacy, but my experience is that in truth, physical intimacy is what’s easiest for them. I guess that can be attributed to the hamster wheel effect some of the posts above refer to. They’re saying what they think sounds right rather than simply saying what they’re thinking.
I am with Tom and then some… I would rather be any single period…American women are too whacked…
so…i have no idea how googling for (what was i looking for?) led me to this sight, but my God, this has got to be the MOST DEPRESSING WEBSITE EVER. You list down formulas for marriage?? MMF = SF + $*(f(theta,x)) ??? W-T-F!?!? then you start objectifying both sexes? orbiter dude? alpha female? huh????
Like I’m only a teen, but seriously, just find a nice guy (gal) that
[a] loves you
[b] has good family (in-laws that will tolerate you)
and that’s it!!! the rest will fall into place. i swear, I’d rather read an IRS tax book than read through this depressing sh*t….jeez, no soul whatsoever labelling men and women into different types and predicting their behavior based on their “label” …so sad.
James:
I was a teen like you in the mid 1980s, eons ago. I once thought as you did. I once thought I could very easily simply snap my fingers and find someone who loved me and whose parents I could tolerate and who tolerated me. And indeed I did find a few such girls.
Then I would go all in, act lovey-dovey, and invest all of my time, money, resources and myself.
Within a few weeks, with nearly every girl, I heard variations on the same theme:
–“Let’s just be friends.”
–“We just don’t seem to have much in common.”
–“I just don’t want to get serious.”
–“I’m just not attracted to you.”
–“I don’t want to rush things. You’re really special, and I want to wait.”
–“I want to do it the right way this time.”
–“I’m not like that anymore.”
–“This isn’t working out. But I really like you, and I hope we can be friends.”
–“It’s not you, it’s me.”
–“There’s two kinds of guys — the kind you date, and the kind you marry. You’re the kind you marry, and I’m just not ready to get married yet. I hope you understand.”
–“You’re gonna make a great husband for some really lucky girl someday!”
Translation: “You’re not man enough for me. You’ve given me all of yourself and I guess I just don’t think it’s good enough. I found another man who’s sexier and more manly than you are, and since we’re not married and I don’t owe you anything, I’m outta here. Besides, you want commitment; I don’t.”
Then you sit back, over and over, and watch the girls who just dumped you swing immediately to a more alpha man who holds back on commitment, doesn’t give all of himself to her, acts as his own man, and takes no sh!t from her. He dumps her the minute she starts hassling him. Then she comes back to you, weeping about how Alpha McGorgeous or Harley McBadboy or Frank Fratboy or F**kbuddy Rockbanddrummer done her wrong, and “why can’t they be NICEGUYS like you!?”
Though times, laws and culture have changed, human nature has not.
You have much to learn, young James. I hope you and other young men coming up now don’t have to learn it the hard way, as I did.
@James: FWIW, I found this thread to be uplifting, because my experiences seem to be pretty common. It wasn’t just me experiencing and seeing these things. Kind of like the first time a relationship ends, and no matter how hard you try, you can’t really blame yourself even 1% for it ending. Sure it’s sad that that’s the reality of it, but to know that it’s no fault of your own? Uplifting if anything is.
James:
I truly hope that no girl ever tells you these things. But if they do, I’ve recopied them here, with the translations:
–”Let’s just be friends.”
Translation: “I don’t really want to be your friend; I just want to find a way out of this thing with you that will not make me look like a total bitch. Look, let’s face it: I will never ever in a million years have sex with you because I’m just not into you at all. So can we just agree to leave it, and walk away, so that I can save some face here? OK?”
–”We just don’t seem to have much in common.”
Translation: “I don’t want to have sex with you.”
–”I just don’t want to get serious.”
Translation: “I just don’t want to get serious WITH YOU.”
–”I’m just not attracted to you.”
Translation: “You and me — this just isn’t going anywhere. Look, the thought of having sex with you really turns me off. You’re just not my type. I’m trying to let you down easy while being halfway honest here.”
–”I don’t want to rush things. You’re really special, and I want to wait.”
Translation: “If you were a hot alpha, I’d do anything you wanted sexually. I’d blow you in the bar bathroom and be literally f**king you in the car on the way back to your place. And in fact I’ve done that many times before with alphas (not that I’ll ever explicitly tell YOU that). But since you’re not a hot alpha, and you’re instead a provider beta, you’re not getting sex until I know you’re invested in me, and even then you might not get any sex. I am in total control here.”
–”I want to do it the right way this time.”
Translation: “I’ve gotten hot sex from hot alphas, and I got hurt. Now I’m on the prowl for a husband; and I’m going to make you establish yourself as husband material before you see any skin at all.”
–”I’m not like that anymore.”
Translation: “I most certainly am like that with alpha men. But I’m ready for a husband now after my time on the carousel. Since you’re not alpha, I need to put on a “nice girl” act so I can make you prove your bona fides as possible boyfriend or husband material.”
–”This isn’t working out. But I really like you, and I hope we can be friends.”
Translation: “This isn’t working out, I don’t like you, and I don’t ever want to see you again.”
–”It’s not you, it’s me.”
Translation: “It’s not me at all. I’m just fine. It’s you. It’s all you. You are the problem here, and I’m ending the problem by getting rid of you.”
–”There’s two kinds of guys — the kind you date, and the kind you marry. You’re the kind you marry, and I’m just not ready to get married yet. I hope you understand.”
Translation: “You’re too nice of a guy, you don’t turn me on, I feel like a bitch by dumping you, but the bad feelings aren’t enough to make me continue dating someone I am just not into at all. But I’d be totally into marrying you if I were feeling the tingles.”
–”You’re gonna make a great husband for some really lucky girl someday!”
Translation: “I don’t know if you’d be a great husband or not, but thank God I’ll never find out, because that “really lucky girl” will definitely NOT be me.”
On the other hand, James, translating for men is easy.
–“Hi, [insert girl’s name here]. I’m [insert man’s name here].
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“let’s get a drink.”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“what are you doing later on?”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“Let’s get out of here and go to another place.”
Translation: “I want to get you alone away from your friends and cockblockers because I want to have sex with you.”
–“Let’s go back to [my] [your] [other available] place.”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you.”
–“That was awesome.”
Translation: “I liked having sex with you and I want to have sex with you again.”
–“I’ll call you in a couple of days.”
Translation: “I’ll call you when I want to have sex with you again.”
–“Let’s meet up for some drinks at [insert name of watering hole here].”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you again.”
–“Yeah, I guess you can call me a boyfriend.”
Translation: “I want to have sex with you on a regular basis.”
–“[Girlfriend’s name], I want you to meet my mom, [insert Mom’s name here] and my dad, [insert Dad’s name here]. And this is my brother and sisters.”
Translation: “I want my parents and siblings to approve of my having sex with you on a regular basis.”
–“Let’s get married.”
Translation: “I’m willing to give up my privilege of having sex with other girls to keep having sex with you.”
@ James…. “Like I’m only a teen, but seriously…..”
Yes, James, you are just a teen. When you have been married, had at least one child, supported your family, and faced a culture which will try to destroy all of that through laws that support frivolous divorce, which will leave your children fatherless and hence spiritually, emotionally and quite likely physically impoverished, then by all means feel free to share your wisdom. Until then try to learn something from your elders who have already been down this road. One of the chief values of wisdom is being able to learn from the experiences, good and bad, of those who have gone before you. One of the chief characteristics of foolishness is telling off your elders about how you are so much smarter than them.
@Deti
I was laughing.
Perhaps you know this one: It’s like going for a job. You have the interview and the interviewer says to you:
“You have a great resume, in fact you are the ideal person for the job – but, we are not going to hire you. We are in fact going to hire someone else, someone far less qualified than you. When it goes wrong, as it will, we will then hire someone else. In fact no matter who we hire we will never hire you; however from time to time we will call you to complain about the people we have hired”.
That is being friend-zoned. The reassuring news is, of course, that over the decades the quality of the men the woman can pull will gradually decrease, as the Alphas are replaced by the Scum-bags and toy-boys, and lost causes.
Let’s hope James is lucky – some are.
Luckily, while I was working my way through college in my twenties, I had the opportunity of working with a lot of my elders. I certianly learned some of mistakes to avoid from my father as he raised me, but I learned a whole new quantity of them from several coworkers of all ages. I learned things from men in their thirties all the way through men in their sixties, simply by listening to their experiences, be it their mistakes, or the things they’ve done right in their lives.
One of the bigger negative consequences of ‘modernist’ philosophy is that it discourages people from learning by way of others’ examples. Every individual has to find their own way in some regard, but why should any individual waste their time learning what has already been figured out? You put yourself seriously behind the curve in life if you’re not willing to acknowledge that a great many things in life have already been figured out; if you instead to try to figure everything out for yourself. Trial and error tends to involve a lot in the way of error before you figure out what works… and find out what works is what all your elders told you was what works.
Opus:
Yes. Men learn early on about rejection. We’re rejected by girls, by other men, by possible employers, in sports. We’re told “it’s part of life, suck it up, pick yourself back up, get back up, try again, don’t give up, keep trying, MAN UP!!!”
James gets it man….he has figured out that labels are bad news, and that to put labels on people is wrong. We can’t label things, join that label free movement that won’t call itself anything.
James,
You’re a teen. Enough said.
You’ll learn young man. And the older, experienced fellas will be here for you. I have a son turning 20 this week from my only marriage. When you’ve watched the destruction a woman and her ‘flighty’ decisions have on your child’s life….and how irreparably damaging they are……come back and tell us how you’re doing.
In the meantime, keep doing what you’re doing…… we will be here when you’re bleeding.
James,
To quote Frank Miller:
“Yeesh.”
To which I add:
Then certainly do not google “Heartiste” or “The rational male”.
[If you end up searching for them, don’t keep a firearm or sharp implement near you when you do so.]
That being said…
We’ll be seeing you again (and regularly) within the next 5 years.
No doubt in my mind.
@ Opus & Deti – thanks for the sad/funny/true insight.
However, allow me to point out these are the truly “stupid” females (Their behavior has consequences – they marry the wrong guy hoping to change him ( he will hate her for it)
Are there anyones that get it ?
I appreciate a lot of advice in this post, but I do have to admit that this site has reduced me to tears. I’m 34 year old single mom (flame me if you like, I’ve heard it all), educated with a masters degree, worked in a technical field and now am an adult educator in my field. I’m not a feminist. I’ve been told by many married men that I’m the whole package (smart, funny, pretty, etc.) and that they wish they’d settled down a little older and found someone like me. I’m not single by choice, I wasn’t holding out for some pie in the sky life. I was taking care of my responsibilities and providing the best life I could for my child. Made a few wrong decisions on the way and wasted my time on the wrong guys and here I am 34. Now I can get dates fairly easily, but I’m kinda shy and nothing clicks. I’m the type of woman that would do anything to make a man in my life happy. I’m a great cook, I’m reasonable at cleaning, I’m low maintenance, and all I’m looking for is a guy who will be kind and I can strike up a good best friends and more type relationship with, and I can’t seem to do that. It’s been a couple years since my last relationship. There are some usable ideas here but I must admit I feel pretty hopeless now. I guess I missed the train. Time to go hug my cat, maybe adopt a couple more .
Jenn,
I’ve dated single mothers after my own divorce 8 years ago; I’m 44. I was raised by a single mother; so I don’t judge anyone based on that alone.
This site is painfully accurate in describing the landscape of dating a woman over 30. Hell, you could say even worse things about women in their 20’s…..vapid, shallow…..the list goes on and on. Men just aren’t signing up anymore, as seen in today’s article quoting the census chart. Why should we?
How is it that is you’re attractive, smart and willing to be in a giving relationship, that you aren’t meeting men interested in you? Is it due to having a child? Because you’re shy? Shy doesn’t make guys like me move on, I happen to be attracted to shy, smart women…..so what do you attribute it to?
Jenn:
I’m not going to flame you. I reserve my snark for the haters who flounce in here with screeds about how awesome they are and about how there’s not a man alive who’s good enough for them. Since you haven’t done that, I don’t see any point to flaming you.
You came here because you’re looking for answers. Your situation’s going to depend on a lot of things. You don’t have to answer here; answer for yourself, and it might give you some insight. I will admit, the fact that you’re a single mother makes it difficult. Dating is treacherous enough for single men nowadays. Dating a single mom is a minefield.
–Do you work a lot of hours? Is your job demanding? (indicates time you have to devote to a relationship)
–How did you become a single mother? Unplanned pregnancy? Divorce? (It matters because it indicates your relationship history)
–How many long term relationships (LTRs) have you had? (same as above; also indicates ability to forge and sustain relationships)
–How many children do you have? How old are they? (children are a major time and money investment; indicates time and ability to commit to a relationship)
–If more than one child, all by the same father? (indicates future time orientation, planning, impulse control or lack thereof)
–How’s your relationship with the children’s father(s)? (Indicates ability to handle difficult situations; but could be a situation which many single men don’t want to involve themselves in)
–How many “wrong guys” were there and what were the circumstances? (That info tends to be important once things start getting serious. You’ll be asked about it. Gotta be up front about it.)
And most important:
–What do you want out of a relationship? Something long term? A husband? What is your goal? What are you willing to do to reach it? Are you willing to quit your job? Are you willing to relocate? Are you willing to let him lead your relationship; and you submit to his leadership?
@ Jenn – I have met women who are “the complete package ” – turns out they were not when it came to “relationship etiquette” behind closed doors.
It is quite predictable that a womans relationship with her father and if her parents are still married will pretty much dicate her relationship with a man ( The same is true for men ).
Btw, women who have just cats as pets scare the heck out of me ( seriously).
LOL well I have a cat, horses, a snake, and as soon as I get a house or a different apartment that will allow one, I’ll get a dog too. My parents are married, very happily still, they were high school sweethearts, me and my dad get along well.
I know a lot of people hate snakes 😦 but he’s a tiny little non-threatening animal that belongs to my daughter.
Cats are good. It is great that you get along with your Dad, Jenn. I think that is important.
@DaringHart13 I attribute it to reality I guess, lack of opportunity, sometimes mistakes on my part, sometimes happenstance. @deti, thanks for the questions, they were good food for thought. I wont answer all the questions cause that would be TMI. I have one daugher, she’s 10, I just got a job as a CIS Instructor at a college, so it’s demanding but the hours are somewhat flexible. I have only been at this job for a year and before my job was 8 to 5 so that may have been a problem. I would only relocate or quit my job if I was married or in a very committed relationship with someone I could count on. I need the stability this job provides so without some way to make it I can’t give it up. However, I would put a marriage ahead of those things cause I guess I believe you work together to make it. I will leave abusive situations, but in a healthy relationship I’m happy to let the man lead. I was raised that way and I’m not a domineering person, especially with guys. I genuinely get a kick out of guys and I gravitate towards hanging out with guys at work or in social situations because I feel more comfortable around men. I don’t hate women either unless they’re mean to me. I want a long term relationship and ultimately marriage but it’s more about the commitment and connection to me then it is the wedding. I left a 5 year relationship 3 years ago because the man didn’t want to marry me and I thought 5 years was long enough to wait. He would’ve if I’d offered an ultimatum but I guess I was just thinking that maybe I could find something more genuine then that. In the last 3 years I’ve been kissed, once, and not a porno kiss haha. I’m not a prude but I’m not bedhopping. I really want to meet the right person, fall in love and have something that can last and bring long term happiness to both people. Maybe I’m an idealist, wouldn’t be the first time. But my parents are like that and occasionally I see couples like that, so who knows.
Oh and as for my daughter’s father, he’s been out of the picture completely for 7 or 8 years. He didn’t follow the court visitation and left the state, got married, I think he’s divorced and bounces around. He may have other children by now. I hope he doesn’t come back. If he did I’d just do the best I could to find a peaceful solution that’s best for everyone but primarily my daughter.
Jenn: I left a 5 year relationship 3 years ago because the man didn’t want to marry me and I thought 5 years was long enough to wait
Dear Jenn, please take this as coming from someone who sincerely wants to help “marry you off”, and harbors no hostility. But I must say some hard things to make my point.
To be quite blunt, NO heterosexual man hangs around in a relationship for 5 years, without sex. (Except in the rare case where one party is deployed overseas, in college far away, or in jail, and it just isn’t possible to be togetehr.). So unless you and he are really, really unusual, for most of those 5 years you and he were having SEX. That’s a huge problem right there.
The first rule of getting married is, NO SEX til the WEDDING NIGHT. This will make all the jerks and nonserious men, go away quickly. The Bible has this ban for a reason. God is trying to help you, not ruin your fun.
The second rule is, don’t waste 5 years on anyone. If the relationship isn’t on a clear marriage track within 6 months, DUMP HIM. Don’t even give an ultimatum. Just end it. But of course, if you’re not giving him sex, he probably won’t even make it to the 6 month mark… unless he’s planning on proposing and getting sex THAT way… as he should.
If you left a 5 year relationship 3 years ago, and you’re 34, that means that you wasted prime marriage years… ages 26-31… on this loser. Don’t you wish, in retrospect, that you’d never slept with him, and he had walked away a LOT sooner, freeing you up to pursue others?
Rule 3. No pouftas. (Monty Python)
Rule 4. Specifc to your situation: Make it clear you want more kids. Back in my single days, somewhere around age 30 I suddenly realized that nearly all the women available to me, were divorced mothers.. and having less strict theological convictions about divorce than I do now, I broke down and dated those who seemed to be “biblically free to remarry” (according to my understanding at the time.).
I was willing to take on another guy’s kid(s) IN ADDITION to having my own…. but the deal I was offered, was to take them on INSTEAD OF having my own. I do know several guys who took that deal. Total wimps, I’m sorry to say. You DON’T want that.
My answer was, in effect, is “NO FUCKING WAY”. As is the case for most men. So you need to make it clear that you are thrilled with the idea of having more kids. Or you’ll get dumped over and over.
Rule 5. Don’t give up. I was 38 and my wife was 34 when we found each other on the internet.
No poofters. Note the spelling.
Good point about the kids.
Jenn: Did your father advice you to do these things or did you not ask or listen to his advice?
One of the problems for my generation was that the previous generation married, tended to marry virgins, had children within marriage and stayed married. They may not have been happy, but by and large life was tolerable and they had a bigger task than merely seeking personal happiness, namely bringing up the next generation; and thus I – and I am sure the same went for all my contemporaries – were never given any advice as to what to avoid when it comes to females. No one ever warned against dating single mums or divorcees, or sluts, (including those who were known to abort unwanted children); one was not told to cease dating any woman who showed passive-aggresive tendencies or who was otherwise personally manipulative; nor was one advised to avoid boyfriend or friend-zone status; and finally one was never given any advice given about marrying people from different cultures or classes, or to avoid marrying women who were older than one or who were noticably less well educated.
One had to learn the hard way. In other words one put too much emotional energy into women who were not, I am afraid to say, no matter how interesting or attractive, worthy of considered attention. No one ever explained to me, at least, that in marriage it is the man who is the prize or that being single does not make you a freak; and that for a man, time is on his side or indeed why that is so.
I only ever received two good pieces of advice, and so I will share these two gems:
1. It (meaning females) never goes away.
2. If she has done it once, (bad behaviour) she will do it again – so don’t give her that second opportunity.
It was van Rooinek’s above comment in response to Jenn that put me in mind of this.
Fact: She had plenty of opportunities her whole life to marry a worthy man. And she didn’t. As far as being date material, being a single mother has got to be the biggest flag. It’s a real-life evidence she goes for guys with a shitty attitude. What’s more unsettling is the people here trying to help her find a man to help raise her illegitimate children. I didn’t expect that from this place (for personal and moral reasons)…surely it would be humiliation to the guy being cuckolded, and wasting his resources.
sunshine: I only see people advicing her to evolve to overcome her mistakes and no advice on her masking her mistakes, without changing. And nobody here is encouraging men to support single mothers and their children, rather the opposite.
Opus, the greatest achievement of the feminist movement has been to convince men that they cannot expect to marry a virgin. And very few women, even in the Manosphere, want white weddings to mean what they used to any more.
@David Collard
The greatest achievement of the feminist movement – apart from providing hours of fun laughing at their absurdities by giving the Q36B Hamsterlator a work-out – is to convince men that most women are sluts (or otherwise damaged goods) whom it is not worth a man’s trouble treating as anything than pump and dump material – not if you value your sanity and your wallet. The model of what a marriagable woman should be just does not marry up to the empirical evidence – and the sad and tragic thing is that the women cannot see they are unmarriagable. It is that which I wish had been made plain to me when I embarked on man’s estate, but as I said; the women from my parents generation did broadly match the theory. Feminism is a player’s paradise: sex – and cheaper than with a prostitute!!
Sorry, I don’t think this kind of assistance in marrying off women who are only loyal about their own satisfaction is very kind to decent men. Women like this don’t deserve a faithful, honest man to follow, because chances are they walked away from plenty of them their whole life. And this is the bitter end.
The greatest achievement of the feminist movement was the liberation of women from the “need” to marry boring betas in order to survive. This was replaced with an alpha seed lottery that all women could play. That, in essence, sums up feminism and its motives.
Jenn:
I see a couple of things. van Rooinek had good advice.
Unlike tokyo, I’m not willing to leave you in the cold with no man — at least not yet. Let me see if I can help you out here. Like van Rooinek, I want to help. Uncle deti just wants to offer a few pointers.
1. I don’t get the sense that you’re all that serious about finding a husband. I think you’re only just now getting an idea of how daunting the task is before you. You need to get serious about it. NOW. With all due respect, you’re not doing much to make a very hard task any easier.
2. You have a cat, horses, a snake, and want a dog. NO. You have too many toys, too many financial encumbrances. GET RID of the horses and the snake. Don’t get a dog. You can keep the cat. Too many pets screams high maintenance, selfishness, and self-absorption. Horses are extremely expensive. So are dogs, and they need more care than cats. And the snake? Weird. Sorry, that’s just — no. Just NO.
All due respect: Grow up. You’re not 23 and single. You’re 34, a single mom, with a tough job and a child to support, and you’re looking for an LTR. You may have one, and ONLY one, pet. You may not have horses. You may not have snakes.
3. This:
“I genuinely get a kick out of guys and I gravitate towards hanging out with guys at work or in social situations because I feel more comfortable around men. I don’t hate women either unless they’re mean to me. I want a long term relationship and ultimately marriage but it’s more about the commitment and connection to me then it is the wedding.”
tells me volumes. there is so, so much here.
Generally there are two problems with women who hang out with men as “just friends” all the time:
a. You make it impossible for men to approach you. Men see you with other men all the time. Here’s what they see:
— One of the men she hangs with all the time is her husband or BF. Can’t tell who. Doesn’t matter.
— Cockblockers as far as the eye can see. Too hard.
b. Such women tend to act like men. They don’t tend toward the feminine in speech, manner or dress. Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.
Second, you want an LTR but not necessarily a husband. Too ambiguous. Firm this up. Either you want to get married or you don’t. Decide what you want, and move towards it with singular purpose. LTR is too vague, too ambiguous, and too easy to end if things get tough. If you only want an LTR but not marriage, expect disappointment.
4. You need to do everything you can to make it easy for a man to approach and get to know you. You also need to demonstrate in word and deed that finding and getting a worthy man is a prime priority in your life.
a. Show him what you can offer him. Cook for him. Clean his place. Take care of him.
b. Make it easy for him. Show him you are interested. Ask him out. Show interest in him OVERTLY and EXPLICITLY.
c. Make it clear that your child is YOUR responsibility, not his. But if you marry, you MUST make it clear to your child that your husband IS the man of the house and she WILL obey him. Your husband will be your child’s de facto father. She must obey him. “You’re not my father!” and “I don’t have to listen to YOU!” will NOT fly — not for one minute. If your daughter can’t abide that, send her to live with her father.
Your marriage must come first — even before your children. Yeah, I said it — I am and should be more important to my wife than my children are.
d. Do all you can to improve your physical appearance, and lower your standards for a man. By this latter statement I don’t mean put up with crappy behavior for a man. I mean you’re not going to get high-attractive men. Truth: You won’t get George Clooney or Mr. Moneybags. Men like them have more women than they know what to do with. You will NEVER get a man like that for an LTR or marriage. You’re too old and you have a kid. Sorry if it sounds brutal, but them’s the facts.
Jenn:
Another thing about hanging out with men all the time: I suspect some of what’s going on here is you have a lot of beta orbiters. I suspect you have them because you relish the attention these men give you. There are generally three kinds of beta orbiters:
1. men who are interested in you but are either too timid to approach you and express that interest overtly. But those men hang with you because they hope if they stay around long enough or do enough things for you, then you will eventually notice what great guys they are and reciprocate with sexual interest.
2. men who have expressed interest in you but you have told them “Let’s just be friends” or some variation thereof. Like 1. above, they orbit you in the hope that someday you’ll reconsider and couple with them sexually.
3. men who genuinely aren’t interested in you sexually. You think they help you, but they don’t because they cockblock for you and make it tougher for worthy men to approach you.
@Deti, thanks for the advice. I mostly spent time around men because I work in a male dominated field. I will keep the blocking in mind and be mindful not to do that. I will also keep putting more of an effort into my appearance. The horses are free for me to keep but I can see your point and how someone would assume that they encumber me. I come from a farm and I live in a semi rural community so it’s common that people have small farms or horses in my city.
@van Rooinek I do wish I had not wasted those years on that man and you have a very good point.
I’m not looking to marry for looks or for status or a George Clooney type or anything like that. I would like to marry for love. I would love to cook someone’s favorite meals and keep a happy household and be a good companion to someone. I’m also not looking to short change some guy out of the life he wants so there’s no need for manipulation.
Today I’m going to a social function so I’ll try to look nice as there are quite a few single dads that attend.
I appreciate the insight. I’m not going to argue in favor of feminism or defend myself against being a slut or not deserving a husband etc. I dislike the state of affairs that the world is in too because of the feminist movement. I haven’t had a ton of opportunities of great guys that I just threw away.
Thanks for the insights and point of views.
“I mostly spent time around men because I work in a male dominated field. I will keep the blocking in mind and be mindful not to do that.”
The way “not to do that” is to stop hanging around so many men that you’re not dating. You aren’t doing the blocking. The men are, whether they intend to or not; whether you intend for them to do so or not.
A woman who surrounds herself with platonic men unintentionally puts cockblockers all around her.
Jenn, you are getting some good advice. I recognize that this will be bitter medicine to swallow. but I’ve seen deti and van Rooinek give advice for a while. I believe that they have your best interests in mind, and therefore everyone’s best interest. We are all in this together. God be with you.
The following are acceptable pets for a woman:
1. felines.
2. canines.
3. non-carnivore fish (NOT piranhas or similar fish).
You shall NOT refer to your pets as “your children” or “your babies”. You may NOT refer to yourself as your pet’s “mommy” or “mom” or “Mother”. They are NOT children. They are nonsentient animals.
You shall NOT speak baby-talk to your pets.
You shall have no more than two of the above identified quadriped mammals as pets. They shall not be named “Fluffy” or “Honey” or “Beautiful” and you shall definitely not have a chihuahua named “Bruiser”. In fact, you shall not own a chihuahua.
Male animals shall have masculine names. Female animals shall have feminine names.
You shall not carry any animal in a purse at any time. You shall not own a pet small enough to carry in a purse.
Canines and felines shall be kept as pets. They shall be immediately spayed or neutered as soon as they are old enough. Felines shall be declawed.
The following are not acceptable pets for a woman (or for anyone, for that matter):
— reptiles.
— amphibians.
— rodents.
— primates.
— insects.
— porcines.
— arachnids.
— birds.
b. Such women tend to act like men. They don’t tend toward the feminine in speech, manner or dress. Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.
I see this as the #1 problem with today’s female. There is NOTHING that turns a man off faster than this….. otherwise we would be gay. Loud, obnoxious, cursing women….YUCK. Check back on these girls in a few years. Old, wrinkled, alone.
Deti
Gotta break with you on some of the pet advice. A very large amount of what you listed is obviously personal preference. Sure I agree generally with what kind of pets to have and not have but even that is not a rigid line. I knew a woman who maintained a veritable zoo on her property, literally, acres of cool animals, inside and out, it was fascinating, and in no way off putting.
I agree with the male names male dogs too.
But not having a small dog is like some kind of alpha proclamation. I wonder what you’d say to a man with a small dog.
Little dogs are great, talking to dogs is fine, this is just preference, not sound advice across male and female dating population. Usually you hit excellent socio psychological behavioral issues that are really sound advice, this one, again, is maybe your preference
I agree, that pet advice is really thinking too far ahead.
Good luck with it Jenn. I think single-dads are probably your best match.
@deti I totally love your pet rules lol. Nothing is more sickening then someone with a dog in a purse who calls it a pet name and refers to it as a child.
If the snake was an obstacle to a relationship he would be re-homed. All my animals have human names suitable to their gender haha. My cat is Mary, snake is Michael, horse is Holly.
@daringhart I’m not a denim suspender wearing, tobacco chewing, short hair cut sportin, cussin, spitting dyke type lol. I have long, blonde wavy hair, I’m generally soft spoken and shy, I wear appropriate girl style clothes. Today I’m going to add some pink to the wardrobe.
@empathologicalism Thanks for your take on pets. Animals are just a part of my life and I try to be a realistic about it. Everyone has their hobbies, interests and preferences, I just happen to be a farm girl who is knowledgeable about and fond of the animal kingdom.
Well, I’m going to run pick up something cute to wear and head to this social function, I attend as many group activities as I can to try and meet people. One of the single dads has the same kind of snake I do for his daughter and we’re in the same field so I wont lie that there is a bit of an interest there on my part so I’ll make an effort to be approachable and sweet to him today if he’s attending.
Thanks again to all the men who’ve offered your perspectives :).
So it’s been pointed out to me that Clint Eastwood owned an orangutan in one of his movies.
Clint Eastwood may portray a character owning a primate because he is Clint Eastwood.
In fact, Clint Eastwood may own any pet he wants. Because he is Clint Eastwood.
And also — you may not own a rodent as a pet. You already have a hamster.
the pet advice is for fun and entertainment. Hopefully we in the manosphere can laugh a little.
maybe I can take over as court jester if Great Books for Men ever hangs it up. Whatcha think, Dalrockarocka lotsa cocka?
lzozllzozlll.
Deti, amazed at your animal prejudices! Both my guy and I had all sorts of pets as children, and I’d love a snake now.
Is it the norm to declaw cats where you live? It’s illegal in the UK.
Lily:
YOu can declaw cats where I live; most do, some don’t. Vets will declaw a cat’s front claws only, not the rear. Recommended if it’s an indoor cat; but not recommended for cats that ever go outdoors. Outdoor cats should keep their claws so they can climb trees to escape predators.
Live in a semi rural area?
Sell one of the pets, buy a weapon and take up shooting. Go to the range often. Always wear a skirt.
Out of the box thinking. . .
The comment on the cat was a observation brought up by a woman friend of which my experience mirrored (ie pets are just like their owners).
She made a observation that of her females friends – the females that own cats are more solitary and cruel to guys (again my experience also).
This is a IMO- women that have cats are not relationship material – they tend to be loners vs women that own dogs. Women who own dogs are much more friendly and realistic.
Dont shot the messenger.
@ Jenn – Given that you own a horse which is a expense and a lifestyle and want a guy with the same – good luck.
If you are at least a 7-8 you are competing against 8-10’s for the same guys which are very very few- again good luck.
Any woman in their 30’s trying to find a decent guy in that range – good luck.
Men in that range with/without kids in their 30’s and early 40’s call the shots and have plenty to choose from.
A buddy of mine became a widower at 40. He was married to a 28 year old with 2 kids (scale of 10) within 2 years. He now regrets it – though he has a great wife – the other kids and the ex-husband are a ongoing hassle.
Jenn,
@daringhart I’m not a denim suspender wearing, tobacco chewing, short hair cut sportin, cussin, spitting dyke type lol. I have long, blonde wavy hair, I’m generally soft spoken and shy, I wear appropriate girl style clothes. Today I’m going to add some pink to the wardrobe.
LOL…..I’m very glad to hear you’re not that far gone. What Michael says above is unfortunately all too true for women in that age range. I bleed for his buddy…..I have a couple in the same situation; they literally hate their lives. They look like dead men walking.
DISCLAIMER: I’m new to this blog….however, I can tell you that I used to be a diehard romantic. Most men learn the hard way that it gets you nowhere……and find unknown happiness in walking away from the game. The common retort is “do you want to die alone?” ……ummmm, ladies…..everyone dies alone. What most women don’t realize is that we would like to spend the remaining years ENJOYING LIFE…… not being nagged, told we don’t do enough or going without sex.
As Michael says above……we run the show now…… we date the 20somethings…..all the way to older women. And we like the carefree, nagless life 😉
Yes its normal to declaw cats though there are the predictable objectors who act like we are taking their eyes out. it may be illegal in California and Madison Wisconsin…
Empath de-clawing a cat would be the equivalent of cutting off your fingers. They dont just take the claw they rip out the ligaments and tendons that attach them to the musculoskeletal system. How would you like it if someone did that to you, just for their convenience? if you cant handle a properly clawed cat you cant handle a cat.
I can only speak for myself, but I am one of the “older” men who has chosen not to pursue women with the idea of marriage.
I am a 45 year old blue-collared worker. I make a modest yearly net income after taxes in the southeastern part of the United States, and my occupation has been recession proof so far due to it can’t be outsourced, and the can be considered one of the true lifelines of everyday 24 hour/7 day a week America. I was a single parent for 6 of the past 11 years till my son graduated from high school in 2010, who is now of on his own serving our country as a member of the U.S. Army.
I was married once for about 4 years and had to D.T.B. due to the ex-wife applying the skills on how to get married, but did not want to apply the skills needed to keep a marriage. And my son’s mother knew how to get pregnant, but did not want to practice apply the skills needed to get married, so she did not get called up to the majors.
I went on a 32 month break from dating back during my separation, divorce, and it continued till I felt I was ready to date again, and now I’m rolling into my 15th month of being on another and maybe a permanent hiatus after being back into the dating game since winter late fall of 2009. I tried to give black American women of my age range a chance to share my life with, but all I got in return was tons and tons of baggage dumped onto my cloud 9 and was demanded to either handle it or hit the road. I tried to date women in their early 30’s, but what I was running into was women who were 30ish going on 17, and demanding the universe to revolve around them and wanting a “strong black man” to make it happen for them, all in the name of maybe having the p***sy offered to them when asked.
Men like myself who have kept their s**t straight, stayed true to themselves and our offsprings, and did what we needed to do to become good catches for worthy women, just to have nothing more than women with mental issues, priority displacements, unexplainable and inexcusable financial debt, unrealistic marital/dating expectations, and unaligned views of parenting walk in and out of our lives looking for a man who does not exist nor would be willing to ask for their hands in marriage.
So now, I just keep myself a small stable of platonic female buddies for those moments I need a last minute female wing man for a locale or distant outing. Reversing the whole “friend zone” game can be a man’s best friend, because it takes all of the so called power away from women. From a distance they come off as “good” catches, but with me being on the inside, I can tell you that they ain’t worth the trouble, energy, time, resources, and mental headaches and heartache. But they all think they are well deserving. One is a weed-head, big f**king deal you’re a V.P. at a major bank. One has sex for sport, because that’s all she thinks men are good for. One has such high expectations that I know there is no man on this earth can meet even half of them, but at the same time she brings nothing to the table, but herself and her sorry p**sy. (I had the chance to sample it; a waste of a good condom and hard-on) One stands 5’6” and weighs over 250lbs, but wants only a man who’s in shape and works out regularly. One is in debt of over $100,000 and was before she just purchased a house and a new SUV a few months ago. And one is starting to develop the signs and symptoms of per-menapouse, but demands for any man she dates needs to stay on hard, have “staying power”, and must be longer than her hand!!
Now, I’m no paymaster or sugar-daddy by the long shot, but there are those events you share with the fellas, and there are those events you would like to share with a women. The head-dicks-in-charge at work are almost always giving away free tickets or discount coupons for eateries and etc, and I ain’t got no shame in taking them off their hands or ask if their are any floating around if needed or wanted. Do the “friends” know, nope cause it ain’t their business!
And that’s how things are going stay, cause I’m not being bothered with wasting what good few brain cells and patience I have left.
wow…some of these comments sound like they are coming from 1920s or smt. hello, do any of you know that most athletes have their peaks in mid 30s? 30s are pretty awesome…it has its own challenges, just like 20s had their own challenges,– for women per se. Bu we gotta wake up. Of course, a large number of men will wanna be wid 20 years old youngies..cuz most of those girls will be more obedient (sexually, intellectually, and socially), more agreeing, less confident.. and the list goes on as you can imagine. Besides, some women in their 30s ‘just havent yet’ met anyone. this is not necessarily because they are looking for Mr.perfect, or because they did some things wrong!! no..everyone’s life and life-path is different. as a person who did event history analysis and multiple-regression, SAS, and all that, let me tell you stats are not always the objective truth you so assume them to be. we indeed created the chi-square, and gave it threshold values…so leave all that stat stuff. this is your life. you havent met anyone you wanted to marry or you did but he dumped you, or smt happened along the way. It is alright!!! Women that I know who are in their 40+ and unmarried is single because they wanted to be single. it is a choice. Mostly…If you wanna get married, you will. And please dont listen to anyone who tell you to settle. cuz: you dont wanna get divorced!!! yes?? I am now 32, and i think i look better than ever. Besides, fahsion is much cuter compared to 1998s. We can now wear 6 inch heels and run in them, Amen to platforms. A woman is pretty when she thinks she is pretty, and acts it. Dont let anyone tell you, you are les desirable cuz you are in your 30s..makes me real mad!! Plus, there is something super important: beauty can actually be an obstacle to finding a marriage partner, while an average attractiveness can be an asset. but that is for another time.
I understand that women in their 20s have the most choice/power when it comes to marriage and LRTs, but that doesn’t mean, as one of the posters stated, “that a woman over 30 is unmarriageable.” If that were the case, then how do you explain how there are 30 thirty something women in ltrs or engaged to be married to men WITHIN their own age group? Men within their age group who are educated, attractive, successful and have never been married or had kids? If the thirty something woman is able and willing to offer all the above traits (and many are) then why is it so unfathomable to some that she could (and often does) find a match with such a man? And if she does, why does there seem to be an assumption that she has somehow “tricked” him, or that he will eventually wake up and leave her? All because she has past the age of 30? And is thus now “worthless” or “expired” in the eyes of some? This judgement seems to be an acceptable form of prejudice and sadly justified as being, “just the way things are,” according to some. However, if a woman were to assess a man’s worth by his height or bank account she would be judged as shallow at best and likely with a barrage of other insults at worst. How is ageism towards women any different? And why does it seem to be acceptable? I actually know of men in their 30’s who prefer women within their own age group and who do not exclusively pursue women in their 20s. Not all women in their in 30s are the same, just as not all men in their 30s are the same. Why make sweeping generalizations that may not apply to everyone?
Perspective:
Generally, if a woman in this SMP makes it to age 30 as an unmarried or divorced woman it’s for one or more of the following reasons. This generally makes her unmarriageable unless she does a rapid about-face:
1. She’s a carousel rider (the most common reason). This means she’s a slut who has had a fair amount of sex, but not much else, with a number of hot alpha studs.
2. She has “issues” which prevent her from forging and sustaining healthy relationships.
3. She put her career/job ahead of her social life.
4. She already has at least one failed marriage.
I suspect the women in their 30s in LTRs or engaged to men of a similar age group are outliers, and that you are talking about your own experience or “Sex and the City”. What you are describing is not common or typical among single women in this age range. Most women in their 30s in the dating scene are horrifically dissatisfied with what they see as slim pickings. They can’t pull the hot men anymore. Their choices are limited to schlubby men, divorced men 10+ years older, or relatively undistinguished, unaccomplished men who they outearn.
A 30+ YO woman is not worthless or “expired” — at least not always. But her sexual market value and marriage market value are simply not as high as a woman in her 20s. This is almost universally true.
Generalizations are useful because they are generally true. If we could not use generalizations, we could not make it through our world, or live, or make reasonable predictions. There will never be generalizations that apply to everyone. There are always outliers, oddballs, exceptions that prove the rule. That’s what you describe: exceptions to the rule.
Women do assess men by their heights and their bank accounts. Women do this every day in this SMP. There are many women who won’t date a man who is not taller than she. There are many women who want men for their money.
Deti, thanks for your response but I’m going to have to disagree with you on a few points.
1. In response to the “carousel rider,” comment I actually know of single women in their 30s who are actually still virgins. Yes, you heard right-virgins. They do still exist and not just in religions and culures where it is required to abstain from sex until marriage.
2. As for your stance about some women having issues, I would agree partly with you there, but at the same time, I think some of the reasons for their issues stem from traumatic events that occured in their lives such as physical and emotional abuse, child molestation, rape, and so forth. These issues “that prevent her from forging and sustaining healthy relationships,” can take years of intense therapy and work towards healing; an arduous processs that may very well take into her 30s and beyond. Luckily a lot of these women are able to emerge strong and resilient, but instead of being respected for it, they’re often judged and disdained and called crazy, psycho b*%tches for things that happened to them which they had no control over. How is that right or fair?
3. Many men complain about how a lot of women are gold diggers, and that they expect to just a find a man to take care of them. Since most women with a reasonably good head on their shoulders do not want to be perceived this way, they work very hard at becoming independant. Some may have also been late bloomers and didn’t have a chance to attend college until later, so they may find themselves working long hours at entry level jobs in their late 20s+ if they ever hope to move up and attain financial security. Times are tough, and they also may very well be burdened with heavy responsibilities that demand a lot of their time, energy, and money.
A very obvious point I feel you left out is that there are women who actually wish to remain single. Perhaps they’ve been in previous relationship(s) and realized a relationship is not for them and they would rather just go at it alone. I’d also like to add that the desire for some women to remain single, is not just because they wish to sleep with as many ” hot alpha males” as possible, but because some women get to a point where they lose all interest in sex and most men simply would not tolerate being in a relationship where it’s limited or even non existent.
While I did say in my previous post that I understand women in 20s have the most options when it comes to marriage, I disagree with you that women in their 30s who are in LTRs or engaged to men of their own age groups are just exceptions. It may not be they norm, but not quite exceptions eithers as there are still many30+ women who find themselves in such unions. If they’re fit, attractive, take care themselves, are independant, successful and educated and can ofer all the traits they want in their partners, they why not? You are incorrect in thinking I was referring to “Sex and the City,” or my own experiences. I’m single and about to turn 29, so I’m close to my 30s, but not quite yet. If I have to marry a man 10+ plus years older than me, I don’t see that as “slim pickings,” I actually find myself attracted to older men (and, no I don’t have daddy issues) and unless a man is divorced because he was a cheater or abusive, doesn’t mean his next marriage is fated to be like his first. A lot of second marriages are happy, successful and long lasting.
Why is that when a woman indicates a preference for a man who is finacially stable and taller than she, she’s often berated for being shallow, while it seems to be socially acceptable to judge a woman on her weight, looks and age and then to justify it with so-called “scientific research and evidence.” I don’t see anything wrong with preferences, as long they are not the main factor for selecting a mate. A man might prefer a younger, slim, attractive woman but it shouldn’t be the MAIN reason he wants to be with her. A woman might prefer a tall and financially secure man, but that also shouldn’t be the MAIN factor in her choosing to be with him.
nesrin-TR, do you really believe that you are more attractive to men at age 32 than you were at age 20? Ok, maybe 20 is too young of a comparison because that age is too young for a lot of men in their 30s to seriously consider dating. However, compare yourself at 32 versus yourself at age 25 and I think you’ll find that most men would prefer the 25-year-old you versus the 32-year-old you.
Obviously men care about a woman’s character, however, a woman’s physical attractiveness is a an important factor than men consider when determining whom to date or settle down with. Men weigh physical attractiveness more highly than anything else when looking at a woman. You might think that this is superficial, but women certainly don’t seem to have a problem taking advantage of this when they are young and hot – they only start to complain about it when their level of attention starts dropping as they age. Of course, women are also incredibly superficial themselves as many of them are hypercritical about a man’s income or even fashion sense.
You wrote, “Of course, a large number of men will wanna be wid 20 years old youngies..cuz most of those girls will be more obedient (sexually, intellectually, and socially), more agreeing, less confident.. and the list goes on as you can imagine.” I noticed that you neglected to mention that the younger women are more physically attractive than their older peers. This is universally true unless perhaps the woman was really fat in her 20s and then lost the weight in her 30s or had surgery to fix some type of hideous physical deformity. Also, most men prefer women who are agreeable as opposed to those who are combative and abrasive, as many allegedly “confident” women in their mid-30s tend to be.
You also wrote, “A woman is pretty when she thinks she is pretty, and acts it.” I have to disagree with you – a woman is pretty when men think she is pretty and few men think that women get prettier with age.
Younger mothers recover their looks after childbirth. Older mothers most often don’t. Hollywood stars don’t count. Average women can’t drop six figures a year on trainers and nutritionists.
One of the smartest guys I know married a 15 year old girl when he was 31. Yeah, I know, but she was mature for her age, her parents approved, and indeed, had raised her to expect it. Anyway, “more obedient (sexually, intellectually, and socially), more agreeing [sic],” are positives for men, not negatives. She bore him 3 kids before she was 20, and now they’re putting her through law school at 40. She looks great, and has two beautiful grandbabies when stupid women her own age with shriveling ovaries are fishing through the reject pile and shrieking about the lack of marriageable men.
It all depends on whether you want to work with Nature or against her.
Perspective:
1. I agree there are 30 YO + virgins. I believe you know some of them. I know of one. They are exceptions and outliers. Most women in this SMP don’t make it to age 3o without at least one sex partner.
2. I agree there are some women to whom terrible things have happened; it was not their fault, and they have to spend prime marriageable years getting well. That’s not who I was talking about, but no matter. It is not fair or right. But that’s not the point. The point is whether such women are suitable wives and mothers. The point is whether they are and can be attracted to men who will marry them; whether they can handle the rigors and pressures of marriage and motherhood; whether they can withstand the natural good times and bad times of marriage without bailing out; whether they can understand their own hypergamous natures and not succumb to them when something or someone better comes along; and whether they can give their husbands good, regular sex at reasonable intervals without either losing their minds or becoming harpie nags.
3. As for women becoming independent and earning their own money: Women need to make their choices, just as men do. If women choose to earn their own money and become career oriented to the detriment of a social life and love life, or even to its exclusion; that is their choice. That choice comes with consequential tradeoffs. The tradeoff is that young marriage will be out of the question; and that career women will have to take whatever is left and whoever is willing to marry them, if and when they decide to marry. Or they will simply have to forgo marriage altogether.
I have no problem with women wanting to make career a priority. But individual women must realize that when that decision is made, she excludes many good men because she won’t be attracted to many good men; and because she simply won’t have the time to pursue romantic relationships. You cannot have it all, all at once. Or you can have it all, just not all at the same time.
(Spare me the “you can’t handle a strong independent woman” speech. It’s not that men can’t handle such women; it’s that a relationship with such a woman isn’t worth the effort, hassle and headache. Contrary to what the feminist overlords teach, a job, a salary, connections, and educational pedigree does NOT make a woman more attractive.)
I also have no problem with women deciding not to marry. That, again, is their choice. I suspect these are not the women from whom we read the articles bemoaning the lack of “good men”. The women who write these articles and about whom they are written are women of whom I spoke earlier: They passed up good men when they were younger; rode the carousel; then stepped off or were kicked off. They stand around blinkered, genuinely flummoxed that a phalanx of hot alpha males isn’t kneeling before them with 2 carat rocks and pledging their undying love. These women really think they can have any man they want and that they are as attractive at 32 as they were at 24. They can’t and they’re not. The men they passed up 5, 6, 7 years earlier are either married to other women; divorced; or have given up altogether.
You say you think 30 YO + women in LTRs and marriages are more common than “exceptions”. You are still really talking about your experience. I will admit that the age of first marriage is creeping upwards for men and women, but it’s still under 30. Most people who ever get married, are married by 30. Also, you’re focusing on a woman’s career as an attraction point. It is not. A fit, attractive woman can still marry at 30 or even 35. The problem is that most women at 30 or 35 are not fit and are not nearly as attractive as they were in their early 20s.
The most important attraction factors for women are looks and youth, with pleasing personality being a distant third. If she can’t attract him, she’ll never meet him, much less date him or keep him. The most important attraction factors for men are confidence and dominance. It is perfectly acceptable for men to judge women on looks, age and weight. Women judge men all the time on their confidence and dominance. I can’t tell you how many women rejected me outright “just because”. I know now it was because I lacked confidence and social dominance. I don’t blame women for this attraction point; it just is. Women should not blame men for wanting looks and youth. It just is.
Perspective, you really don’t know much about this SMP. I suggest you keep reading.
Again: It is all about choices. Women have wide ranges of choices in this SMP. Nearly every young woman can find a basically suitable man to marry. The problems are these:
1. Most young women learn early on that they can use their sexual attractiveness to extract things from men.
2. Most young women learn early that they can use sex to get what they want.
3. Most young women learn they can get sex from hot alpha males. Many of them try to parlay that hot alpha sex into a relationship with him. Most get little more than an STR of 3 months duration or less; or a spot in a rotating harem. She doesn’t realize that he can get sex not only from her; but also from women like her. She ends up getting sex, but not much else.
4. Women don’t know the difference between their sexual market value, which is usually a point or two higher than their marriage market value.
5. Most young women know of two or three beta men who would be overjoyed to have them as wives; but the women turn up their noses at these men, coldly rejecting them. She could have at least one beta who would wife her up in a heartbeat, but she doesn’t want him because he’s not as attractive or good looking or sexy as the hot alpha males she can have sex with, but who will never marry her.
If young women could understand these things, they’d be much happier and more contented in their lives.
Every point Deti makes stands to reason though one thing I would add is that the biggest change in SMV for women over 30 is that the the SMV of men has risen and created equilibrium. The difference between the woman in her early 20s and the one in her early 30s is that the younger one can often get marriage on her terms whereas the 30 year old woman is probably going to marry an older man than the 20 year old will be. He will most likely not allow her to ride rough shod over him and there will have to be some give and take.
Women over 30 are not categorically doomed to spinsterhood and cats. That is hyperbole. At 30 the days of marriage are not over, the days of men doing all the work trying to attract you, likely are. You need to have something to bring to the table other than just your pozzle.
“You need to have something to bring to the table other than just your pozzle.” – koevoet
It’s amazing to me how many women don’t want to learn that men in general want more out of a man than what’s between her legs. There’s life after you put your clothes back on. I think if women took dating and relationships more serious than their nails, hair, clothing, how to please their inner “me”, they would be a lot more satisfied.
There are too many people making money off of making women feel bad about themselves. Reinforcing women’s low self-esteem and making them continue to be unsure about themselves is a billion dollor business.
Take a look around, women feeling bad about themselves and needing that next “IT” = $$$$$
Ya cause that’s what anglo women need, bigger egos.
-@ deti
The game is called, “Trying to fix/change an Alpha Male.”
What normally happens when an Alpha male becames a Beta male or an Omega male, then woman tends to complain that his is not the man he was in the past, then begins to pursue new Alpha males.
Normally Omega males are Alpha males who have grown up and have learned that (1) that daggers knifed in the back are just as bad as daggers knifed in the front, (2) bastard children and ex-wives/girlfriends tend to know the perfect time to reappear, and it’s normally at a time you least expect and need, (3) very few people attend Alpha male funerals once they leave this earth.
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Churches can be a good place to meet men. You shouldn’t go just to ‘game’ a religious guy if you don’t have faith. But if you are a person of faith, or would like to learn, go there and be honest with people about where you are in your beliefs. There are churches that focus a lot on marriage and family. A lot of these churches believe in traditional roles for men and women.
Speaking of that, an eligible woman might be able to attract men if she says at one of these churches, talking to a a friend and says in earshot of several men, “I would like to find a man who would love me that I could submit to.” 🙂
These women don’t deserve advice. They turned down all of the good ones already when they were younger, they’ve passed the top and now they’re going to “enjoy” the bottom. I’m 26 and I have these sad excuses for women hitting on me, not a single bit interested when I can pick up 19-22 year olds in a heart beat. You wasted your lives on yourselves, selfish ladies! Have fun being in a miserable marriage because you were forced to settle.
Dalrock, just curious about your advice in which you suggest women in their 30’s consider men younger than them. I found it interesting you would offer this piece of advice as most people on internet forums and in real life tend to suggest that women in their 30’s should consider men who are 10+ yrs older than them, as most the 30+ women’s peers are either already taken or are looking for women in their 20’s if they’re still single.
“The other group of men I would consider are men younger than you and/or men who would traditionally have been marriageable in their 20s but essentially dropped out of the dating/marriage market due to lack of interest from women their own age.”
Perspective, Sep 23 at 11:17 pm:
Yes, It’s true that most advise a woman in her 30s to seek men 10+ years older. But the issue is what a woman is willing to do in this SMP to meet an attractive man for possible marriage. She needs to widen her attraction filters and consider men she might not otherwise consider. That probably includes younger men (though not too much younger).
Deti,
Yes, that makes sense about a woman needing to “widen her attraction filters and consider men she might not otherwise consider.” But I just found it interesting and yet somewhat contradictory at the same time. I mean on one hand, it’s nice to see that some people are open and tolerant to older woman/younger man relationships, as opposed to the usual judgement, hypocrisy, mockery, disdain, shaming, scorn, Me Tarzan-you Jane/Fred Flintstone sentiments, etc. But at the same time, how is it that some people who pretty much tell women in their 30’s that they have a snow ball’s chance in hell of finding a man their own age, but would then encourage them to be “open” to men who are younger than them? If most men prefer younger women, then wouldn’t a younger man (unless he likes older women) be even more resistant to an older woman than a man her own age?
I found it interesting yet surprising that Dalrock who seems to have pretty traditional and conservative views when it comes to relationships, spoke approvingly when he commented about a OW/YM couple him whom he stated he and his wife once met and said, “my wife and I met a couple on a cruise a few years back who were newlyweds. The wife was in her early to mid 30s and the husband was in his mid 20s. He was a bit on the husky side (in an athletic way), but was extremely smart, funny, and had excellent natural game. I think they will be very happy together.”
If the husband in question is in his mid 20’s, that would make him 24-26. And the wife is in her early to mid 30’s, she could be 30-36. Dalrock didn’t specify exact ages, but the age range could mean as little as a 4 year age difference or even as much 12. Although I have a feeling it’s probably closer to the latter, which is usually considered a whole lot when the woman happens to be the older partner. And yet, even Dalrock seems to be fine with it. Again, great to see some open-mindedness (unfortunately, I tend to see the opposite on this forum) but I’m still confused by how it seems to contradict some of the other seemingly closely held views that I’ve come across on this forum about the kinds of men women over 30 are able to attract. How much is generally considered too much younger? As in, when the older woman will not be referred to as a “cougar,” “cradle robber,” and the younger man will not be accused having an oedipal complex or just being in it for the sex?
The problem for older-woman + younger-man pairs is that it not stable in the long-term.
The “market value” of a 35-year-old woman and a 25-year-old man are similar. But the trajectories are very different. A 35-year-old woman’s SMV already peaked 10+ years ago and will only decline further. But a 25-year-old’s man will probably be higher in ten years.
If they marry, after fifteen years she will be an old hag, but he will be capable of dating women twenty years younger than his wife.
Note that the opposite is true when the man is ten years older than the woman: their respective SMVs will continue to rise and fall mostly in tandem.
Greenlander,
I’m well aware and familiar with of the all points you’ve mentioned and I’ve read and heard these sentiments expressed many times over. However, the questions in my post refer to men who encourage older woman/younger man relationship- not about the issues surrounding these types of relationships.
I suppose you’re entitled to your opinion, but I don’t think it’s necessary to refer to older women as “old hags.” A woman (and many men for that matter) may lose some of the physical/sexual attractiveness as they had in their youth, but that does not mean they will sudenly turn hideous when they get older. And before I’m accused of going some feminist rant, I’d like to add that I find the disparaging remarks I’ve heard about aging men such as “old f&%!s,” and wrinkly you know what, equally as disgusting and demeaning as some of the vitriol I hear about aging women.
A woman who waits to the end of her prime (or later) will always face problems, she will on average never marry as well as she could have 10 years earlier. A good looking (and still well preserved at mid forties) woman I know always had high status boyfriends (stock broker, AR at a big label, handball professional, professional musician etc.) and finally met and married a younger guy at 30 (him being 25), who had a crush on her already when he was 20. But they never had any kids, she being of low fertility, probably due to her earlier life style.
“As in, when the older woman will not be referred to as a “cougar,” “cradle robber,” and the younger man will not be accused having an oedipal complex or just being in it for the sex?”
For the relation to happen on average and typically these statements will be true. An older woman has to be more aggressive. And a young man in this situation will typically fall into either the stereotype of a) wanting to be led and/or nurtured by a woman, or b) not wanting anything serious and looking for other options (younger, more fertile women) for marriage.
There are seldom relations between the opposites of these stereotypes, i.e. an older woman who is not sexually aggressive and a younger man who wants to start a family and is willing and able to lead.
Most men I know who have had relations with older women had these in the beginning of their “sexual careers”, when they had less options and were hornier and less discriminate.
Perspective:
Sorry, I guess I don’t see what your point is. If you are surprised there are a few men in the manosphere who don’t automatically denigrate OW/YM couplings, I guess I can see that. Green is right that they aren’t stable in the long run. I would add that that instability increases depending on the age difference between her and him. It will be more difficult if she is 10 years older than if she is only 2 years older. As they both age, her physical attractiveness will decline much faster than his will. OK, fine. If both are willing to accept this, and there is not a wide age difference, and they both seem compatible, and they both have some productive years, I see no great difficulty with a 30+ YO woman coupling with a man a little younger than she is.
It seems you’re talking about the opposition generally to OW/YM pairings expressed in the manosphere. Yes, it exists. There are good reasons for it. So what? I ask again: What is an over 30 woman willing to do to try to find a suitable partner? Maybe she should be willing to widen her attraction filters to consider younger men, less physically attractive men, men who earn less money than she’s accustomed to, men who live lives quite different from what she is accustomed to. Maybe she should adjust her lifestyle instead of expecting everyone to accommodate hers. Maybe she should be thankful and grateful for what she can get, instead of grousing and complaining about what she passed over or what didn’t work out. Maybe she could have married better 10 years ago. But she passed him over and snubbed him; or she moved away to take a better job, or he just wasn’t that important to her then.
The funny thing is that nearly every one of these 30+ women could have been married to a fine man earlier. Every single woman who comes on these threads and every one I’ve talked to in my entire life has a regret about that great guy or those wonderful men who loved her to the ends of the earth and would have done anything for her, and even proposed marriage to her, but it just couldn’t be for whatever superficial reason. It’s always expressed as:
“Oh, he loved me, but he was like a brother to me.”
“He wasn’t good looking enough.”
“He was a goody two shoes. He wasn’t a fun, exciting bad boy.”
“I just wasn’t in a good place.”
“I needed something for me before I could share it with him.”
“It just didn’t work out.”
“I needed to find myself.”
“My career was important.”
“I wanted to have fun first.”
The point of this post was advice to a woman in her 30s looking to marry. The sticking point is that when a woman hits 30 as a never married woman, her options have already been steadingly shrinking; and continue to shrink with each passing month. She has no time to waste if she wants to find a suitable mate.
Ladies: Marriage is either important to you, or it’s not. Decide whether it is or isn’t, and then formulate a plan to get for yourselves whatever it is you decide you want. The rub is that you don’t get to complain later when it doesn’t work out exactly as you planned.
And another thing:
I suspect there are a lot of 30 + women thinking that when they decide to marry, some hot alpha stud she used to have sex with when she was 23 will reappear in her life after a lengthy absence by reconnecting through Facebook. He will alight to her on bended knee with a ring and a pledge of eternal love.
This is pure fantasy. It’s not going to happen.
Ladies, for the 65,886,543rd time:
WHEN YOU WERE IN YOUR EARLY 20s, YOU PROBABLY COULD HAVE SNAGGED A MAN LIKE THIS WHO WAS IN HIS LATE 20s OR EARLY 30s. BUT YOU SNUBBED HIM AND LAUGHED AT HIM WHEN HE ASKED YOU OUT. YOU HAD YOUR CHANCE. YOU BLEW IT. HE IS ALREADY MARRIED TO SOMEONE ELSE. YOU COULD HAVE DONE BETTER WHEN YOU WERE YOUNGER. IT IS TOO LATE FOR THAT NOW. YOU WILL NOW HAVE TO ACCEPT WHAT YOU CAN GET.
Deti,
My point, or rather my question as I previously asked, was how is it that some in the Manosphere tell a woman in her 30’s she has little chance of finding a marriage/ltr with a man her age, but then suggest that she might have better luck if she is open to be with a man slightly younger than she? I would think that if these men think it difficult for the 30+ woman to find a relationship with one of her male peers, then it would be even more so with a younger man, who is probably looking for even younger women than men the same age as the 30+ women.
You are correct in that I was surprised that there are some men in the Manosphere who do not denigrate the OW/YM relationships, as I often read of vehement opposition to these relationships. It’s because of this opposition that I was confused about how some on this forum seem to advise womem over 30 to be open to younger men, (who I believe would be even more resistant to an older woman than a man her age,) and yet tell her she has even less of a chance with a guy her age.
I agree with you that there are some women in their 30’s who are delusional about the kinds of men they can attract, but please keep in mind there as just as many women that age who are keenly aware of the reality and are at terms with it. Most over 30 women know men their age want the “young hot babes” and they are at terms with it; even though they may not like it. I agree with you there are women who passed up good men when they were younger for shallow reaons, but please don’t forget about the women who were in relationships that had to end due to be being cheated on, lied to, abused in spite of being good woman who treated their men with love and support. And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.
@Perspective — “And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.”
You’re new around here, aren’t you?
Some guy,
Not really. My first post here was almost a couple months ago.
Your comment suggests you disagree with me and that’s ok,
but yes, I personally know of wonderful women who are attractive and
have a lot to offer, but are still unappreciated and taken for
granted. Men are not the only ones who this happens to.
“And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attractive and having a lot going for them.”
I have never, ever met such a woman, ever in my life.
I have never, ever met or heard of any woman anywhere who was attractive and had “a lot going for” her who was “overlooked or never really approached for a relationship”.
By “attractive” I mean rudimentarily physically attractive. She need only be average, look as if she cares somewhat about her physical appearance, and not be morbidly obese.
By “has a lot going for her” I mean she is nice, kind, sweet, submissive, pleasant to be around, is not a ballbuster, and has domestic skills such as cooking, cleaning and knows how to care for children.
Any woman I have ever met who is attractive and has a lot going for her AS SET OUT ABOVE in my experience has never, ever, ever wanted for a man. Not ever.
By “attractive” I don’t mean “intelligent” or “witty”:or “funny” or “has a great personality” or is “exciting and fun”.
By “has a lot going for her” I do not mean “well traveled” or “well educated” or “has Ivy League degrees” or “has had a lot of cool experiences” or “has done a lot of exploring and learning about herself” or “earns a good living”.
I agree with you there are women who passed up good men when they were younger for shallow reaons,
Breakthrough?
but please don’t forget about the women who were in relationships that had to end due to be being cheated on, lied to, abused in spite of being good woman who treated their men with love and support.
You mean, women who pursued the “bad boy” only to find them to be totally hot and totally uninterested in doing the things needed for a successful long term relationship (LTR)?
Shocked. SHOCKED!
And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.
Allow me a minor edit:
And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship by the bad boy, alpha, with the heart of gold and the “three 6s”; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.
Ok, that’s clearer.
Those women were surrounded by eligible and invisible men, because those women did not consider those men worthy of her. She disqualified 90% of all men around her, focused on 10% and punched above her weight class (in the Sexual Market Place) for years until she hit the wall at 30.
Deti,
The women I was referring to have all the traits you described as desirable, with the exception of “submissive,” however, neither are they “ballbusters.” It’s alright if you disagree with me, and while you may have not “ever met such a woman” in your life, I have and they do exist.
Rock Throwing Peasant,
The women you describe are NOT the ones that I was referring to me in my post. The women I know of and describe are good, decent and attractive individuals who are realistic about dating and relationships. They are NOT people who made the wrong choices and rejected good men because they were not the “bad boy, alpha, with the heart of gold and the “three 6s.” I don’t understand why the blame is mostly placed on the women and/or chalked up to how she somehow must have messed up, when that is not always the case.
Oh, I’m sorry. Not all women are like that.
For attraction and marriage:
I as a man don’t care about where you went to school, or your salary, or your job, or your friends.
I don’t care about how much money you make. I don’t care about all the cool people you’ve met or the places you’ve traveled to or the things you did while you were there.
I don’t care about how funny or witty you are, or how good a storyteller you are. Your stories don’t really interest me. I don’t care about all the “cool” things you have done or experiences you have had, unless it involves slutty behavior or a high partner count (which you’ll need to come clean about). I don’t care how smart you are. Whether you can solve three equations in three unknowns or if you have the Book of Ecclesiastes memorized or you have studied quantum physics at MIT is of no moment to me at all.
If you talk to me about the work you’ve done to “find yourself” or “all the exploration” you did to “learn about yourself”, I will conclude you have had something of a colorful sexual history that you haven’t been completely honest about, and you’ve figured out that that path isn’t going to get you a husband. Congratulations for correctly concluding that they only wanted sex from you.
Here’s what I care about: Do I like the way you look? Do I like spending time with you? Are you nice to me? Are you helpful to me? Are you an asset to me? Do you fit in well with the way I live my life? Do you refrain from hassling me and nagging me? Are you smart with your money? Do you care about me and how I live? Can you cook? Can you manage money? Can you clean and take care of a house? Can you live on a budget? Can you solve problems at our house while I am away?
@Perspective — “And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them.”
This type of woman absolutely does not exist. Such women are universally barraged by male attention unless they go far, far out of their way to intentionally avoid it.
I do disagree with the specifics of Deti’s criticism though. All that is necessary for a woman to be approached, is physical attraction. Personality, character, intelligence, values, interests, and other things that they they have “going for them” are aspects of compatibility which may make or break the relationship — but attraction is not compatibility — and all relationships begin with attraction.
I’m truly sorry to say this, I’m not intending to be mean, but if you are not being approached for relationships, one of two things must be true:
(a) you are just not as attractive as you think you are…OR…
(b) you are somehow shutting out or screening out a lot of interested men. I’ve known women who were regularly approached by good men they considered “beneath” their notice — and yet would turn around and complain that there were “no men.” Or maybe you need to ditch your gay friends; they’re a straight repellent. Something..
PS. — you are just not as attractive as you think you are
…in which case, it’s time to cut carbs and hit the gym (95%), followed by a wardrobe upgrade (5%).
How to get a husband: Dress up like Wonder Woman or Bat Girl… then go to various nerd conventions and play board games. Choose the best looking unattached “nice” guy there that has a decent job and be nice to him and play whatever game he’s playing.
(I’m have a hard time imagining an “attactive and having a lot going for them” type of girl that couldn’t get a steady long term relationship and/or marriage by doing that if she was really serious. She wouldn’t have to be super attractive, either– just pleasant, really.)
Perspective:
I sense you have a pejorative view of the concept of “submissiveness”.
Submissive does not mean she is a doormat, or cowers in the corner while her husband barks orders, or tolerates physical abuse, or never voices her opinion.
Submissive means she is not the dominant partner. It means she follows her man’s lead. It means she does not impose her will on him or the relationship. It means she helps him and does not compete with him. He leads and determines the overall course of the relationship, the marriage and the family. If he and she have a disagreement on a major matter, the man breaks the tie and they do it his way in crucial matters such as where to live, where he will work, where and whether she will work, the children’s schooling, attendance at church, religious education and major purchases. She gracefully submits to his leadership even in the face of fundamental disagreement. She has every right and in fact the obligation to give her husband sound and wise advice and counsel on such major matters.
Such women are universally barraged by male attention unless they go far, far out of their way to intentionally avoid it.
I tried to make that point earlier, but it was ignored.
Those women (attractive, lots going for them) were literally surrounded by decent guys who would’ve made good husbands and fathers.
Those men were invisible to these “attractive women with a lot going for them” because they were not hot, “three 6s” men. They were average guys, with average social skills, but likely raised in good families and would provide for a family.
The only men who appeared on the radar of those women were the hot, alpha types. Those women think no man approached them because only those men appeared visible. The average, frustrated chump did not exist, as far as they could see. They were friendzoned, or rebuffed, or did something odd one time were forever disqualified.
So, yeah, those women could’ve opened their eyes at any time and found decent men. They just wouldn’t be bad bay, alpha, three 6 types. It means prioritizing family over the tingle and most women, age 18-35 have made a conscious decision to prioritize work, sex, and playtime over family.
Of course, not all women are like that.
Regarding submission, from Red Pill Reformation:
A wife who submits does not place herself in a subservient or servile role. Spiritually, there is no difference between a husband and wife. Paul used a variation of the word hupotasso when describing submission. Originally a military word, hupotasso translates closer to, “arrange in order under.” Submit, in Biblical terms, is not the same as, “obey.” To obey (hupakoe) is to follow an order. There is no will involved and, some argue, no thought. God does not command a wife to blindly follow a husband’s lead. She has equal spiritual value. He does, however, command her to submit to his leadership.
A family, like any organization, can only function effectively with one leader. A husband should consult his wife, weigh her advice carefully (after all, a husband thought enough of her to marry her), and make a decision in accord with God. A woman will, by her Fallen nature, test the man’s authority. I don’t consider the tests as a consciously evil decision to usurp his authority, as much as it is part of her nature – just as nurturing is part of her nature. However, that doesn’t mean patriarchs shouldn’t resist her nature and assert authority.
Peter restates this principle, using a variation of hupotasso, “You wives, be submissive to your husbands.” (1 Peter 3:1a) Peter also tells wives that they are to submit when their husbands, “are disobedient to the Word, [that] they may be won without a word by the behavior of their wives, as they observe your chaste and respectful behavior.” (vv 1b-2) Notice that Peter does not infantilize women’s spiritual nature. In fact, he reinforces the earlier notion that marriage sanctifies the couple. A godly wife can sanctify a husband and can win him back to a godly life by acting as God commands.
Van Rooinek,
I never once complained in any of my posts about how I am not approached for relationships. My posts are about my observations, not about my own love life.
I have never spoken of my physical attractiveness in any of my posts, nor have I ever posted a photo of myself. So how would you be able to assess how attractive I am and suggest that I “cut carbs and hit the gym (95%), followed by a wardrobe upgrade (5%)?
Cuz that’s good advice for anyone looking to increase their attractiveness…except chicks with anorexia.
Perspective:
Solipsism at work.
van Rooinek was using the generic, universal “you”, not referring to Perspective as “you”. He was not talking about you, Perspective.
Phrase it this way:
“I’m truly sorry to say this, I’m not intending to be mean, but if a particular woman is not being approached for relationships, one of two things must be true:
(a) she is just not as attractive as she thinks she is…OR…
(b) she is somehow shutting out or screening out a lot of interested men. I’ve known women who were regularly approached by good men they considered “beneath” their notice — and yet would turn around and complain that there were “no men.” Or maybe she needs to ditch her gay friends; they’re a straight repellent. Something..”
Deti (and Van Rooinek if you’re reading this)
I think how I understood what V.R. was talking about was more about misunderstanding than solipsism. But in any case, sorry about that.
RPT — “three 6s” men”
6 feet… 6 figures… or deep 6 him.. right? Or is there another meaning for the 3 sixes? (Aside from Revelation… )
There is a heavy emphasis on how a woman’s physical attractiveness and youth are the most important factors in whether or not she can attract a man. So hypothetically, let’s say a woman who has many wonderful traits, is generally considered attractive and would make a great partner/wife but introduced to a man who does not find her attractive, he would most likely not pursue a relationship with her. And I have a feeling he would also most likely NOT encounter criticism from society for turning a good woman down, because hey, he’s a man one of the most importants requirements for his partner/wife selection is attraction right?
Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with, but instead of her choice being met with tolerance and understanding like the man’s choice, she is branded as shallow and superficial? Is attraction not allowed to be an important factor for women as well? Or are they expected to be above that? If so, why?
Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with…
I thought you were arguing they never meet men who are interested in them?
Sharrukin,
Yes, in my other posts I was talking about women not being able to meet men interested in them.
But in my most recent post, I was talking about a different scenario. Not all my posts are
related to one another.
Nobody I know advocates that either men or women should marry people for whom they feel no attraction. How will the relationship ever get consummated? As I said before, attraction is not compatibility. Attraction is instinctive and it is either there, or it is not — for both sexes.
However… when a man is told over and over, year after year, how handsome he is (attraction) and what a wonderful guy he is (compatibility), by women who won’t date him, he starts to get very angry. Either they’re all lying to him, or, there’s something else they want that he isn’t providing… in which case, “WWHHHAAAAATTTTT????”
The fact is that attraction is one dimensional for men, and 2 dimensional for women. This is explained here.
Yes, in my other posts I was talking about women not being able to meet men interested in them.
But in my most recent post, I was talking about a different scenario. Not all my posts are related to one another.
Actually they are very closely related to one another.
That lack of attraction to perfectly decent men, the same sort of men that they will later marry, if they marry at all, is the problem. Those men are increasingly uninterested in those women who show up later suggesting marriage, when they couldn’t get the time of day from them previously. Its obviously the guys wallet, not him, that the woman wants and divorce laws are designed to deliver that wallet to her.
“Perspective: Solipsism at work. van Rooinek was using the generic, universal “you”, not referring to Perspective as “you”. He was not talking about you, Perspective. Phrase it this way: “I’m truly sorry to say this, I’m not intending to be mean, but if a particular woman is not being approached for relationships, one of two things must be true: (a) she is just not as attractive as she thinks she is…OR… (b) she is somehow shutting out or screening out a lot of interested men. I’ve known women who were regularly approached by good men they considered “beneath” their notice — and yet would turn around and complain that there were “no men.”
I agree with this. (a) is very true and you see that with a lot of women these days in that they think they are “all that”, think their s*i* don’t stink, think everything they say is always right and everyone else is just wrong.
(b) Now this one there are many many women that do this and it absolutely KILLS their chances. A lot of women think there is this ultra ultra ultra specific “guy” and he’s somehow going to meet all their ginormous (fantasy) “requirements” and so they say NO to every single guy and it’s no wonder they are constantly always single and in extremely short term relationships. Then like said in (b) they turn around and complain, b*tch about how there are “no GOOD men”. Um yeah there are GOOD MEN RIGHT UNDER YOUR NOSE!! Those guy’s that you dismissed or turned up your nose at, those guys right there that you constantly say no to or turn your nose up to are generally the “good guys”. They likely aren’t going to be they guy that you have envisioned in your mind,
These women in (b) category have broden their requirements, make their requirement “list” much much shorter and realize that when they meet “good men” do NOT just shut them OUT, no man is going to have this “everything” list. they will have a more broad interests with a few specifics that meet you “list” again I say FEW (not a lot) but a FEW specifics, such as he has a great family, he likes to do a lot of the same things as you, he’s educated, has a decent job, he may or MAY not be your 6′ or taller guy. WAY WAY to many single women these days have this such ULTRA SPECIFIC he must be this and this and this and trying to fit a square peg into a round hole and it NEVER WORKS!! When women open their minds up, realize that he’s not going to have your “everything” “fantasy” list “requirements”.
And then of course there were the women, who were just overlooked or never really approached for a relationship; in spite of being attactive and having a lot going for them…
Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with…
This sounds like projection.
Firstly, a woman assesses herself as interesting and attractive, therefore assumes (projects) men should too.
Secondly, a woman is only attracted to such a small percentage of men and assumes (projects) that men are far more selective than they actually are.
Women are attracted to a small percentage of men, courtesy the apex fallacy. Men find a much larger percentage of women attractive, thanks to mass supplication and pedestalisation. But as women project their own beliefs onto men, they end up with this warped thinking, that nobody finds them attractive.
Time for some grandma glasses and some mentoring, me thinks.
!! When women open their minds up, realize that he’s not going to have your “everything” “fantasy” list “requirements”.
Most men learn this at an early age. If you’re not on the starting lineup of the football team, you’re just not going to get a date with a cheerleader. Not ever. However strongly an ordinary guy might admire or desire such a woman, by the time he’s out of high school he knows, fairly well, whether he IS, or (much more likely) IS NOT, able to get such women. And if not, then he revises his expectations downward, towards the real world women who will actually date and marry him.
In a monogamous culture, women learn the same lesson early on, as well. The football stars marries the cheerleaders a few weeks after graduating high school, and the studs are now off the market. And all the other girls start looking at the rest of the guys.
However, in a hookup culture, it’s different.
Since men are the sexually more driven sex, a male “9” who doesn’t have access to a female “9” TONIGHT, may sleep with a female “5” out of convenience. He would never, never, never settle down with a 5 or invest in her — when/if he marries, it’ll be with a female 9, because he can get one. By contrast, a female 9 can get a male 9 whenever she wants. She need never go to bed with a 5 out of desperation, and never does.
As a result: ordinary men STILL get rejected by hot women, from an early age, and STILL learn at an early age, to have more realistic dating goals. But the women DON’T learn this lesson any more, at least not when young. Why? Because they’ve actually had sexual flings with the hottest men, and are deceived by these experiences into believing they are *much more attractive* than is really the case. And so, for the rest of their lives, or at least for the rest of their youth, they will hold out for 9’s in the mistaken belief they can actually get one to commit.
To put it more succinctly, the hookup culture exaggerates women’s natural hypergamy, so much so that it may prevent her from ever mating.
The 9s run rampant, of course, giving “men” a reputation of not wanting to commit. But actually the vast majority of men, are willing to commit… it’s just that those guys are “invisible” to women. And, of course, they snub those guys,… and claim in the next breath that there are “no men” available.
Yes, most men are invisible until most women have exhausted their options, hit the wall, and start considering what they view as their least preferred option, a man with a similar mmv.
She will be ruined by her five minutes of alpha, unable to pair bond, grow chronically unhappy and eventually divorce dear hubs for cash, prizes and another turn on the carousel, shortening her childrens lives and dooming herself to a bitter singleness into old age.
All about choice, i suppose.
“Most men learn this at an early age. If you’re not on the starting lineup of the football team, you’re just not going to get a date with a cheerleader. Not ever. However strongly an ordinary guy might admire or desire such a woman, by the time he’s out of high school he knows, fairly well, whether he IS, or (much more likely) IS NOT, able to get such women. And if not, then he revises his expectations downward, towards the real world women who will actually date and marry him.
In a monogamous culture, women learn the same lesson early on, as well. The football stars marries the cheerleaders a few weeks after graduating high school, and the studs are now off the market. And all the other girls start looking at the rest of the guys.
However, in a hookup culture, it’s different.
Since men are the sexually more driven sex, a male “9″ who doesn’t have access to a female “9″ TONIGHT, may sleep with a female “5″ out of convenience.”
Disagree: Those cheerleaders that married the “football” jocks yeah they married them alright but then they are most likely divorced, ex husband had probably 20 surgeries from football, his knees, shoulders are all shot from football not to mention the onset of dementia from repeated concussions all probably at the age of 39 to 45. Then wife that married football guy, after his career ended she want’s out. Now these women are divorced with 4 or 5 kids she was maybe a 9 back in the day but now after their kids, failed marriage she’s “average” or below. On the other hand there are “average” guys that can get the “cheerleaders” after they have been with Mr. football jock that cheated on her with 10 other women on the side etc etc.
Your statement “”Most men learn this at an early age. If you’re not on the starting lineup of the football team, you’re just not going to get a date with a cheerleader. Not ever.” is just what men see a lot these days they are “those” women that are conceded, stuck up B*t*hes that think they are the s*it, too good for anyone, think they the Ms. “perfect” then they get dumped or cheated on by Mr. football guy then those type of women are even worse cause they think just cause they “were” ms. cheerleader/former cheerleader they should be just “self” deserving and have the warped mind that GQ is just going to appear out of the blue sky etc etc.
Sharrukin,
“Actually they are very closely related to one another.
That lack of attraction to perfectly decent men, the same sort of men that they will later marry, if they marry at all, is the problem. Those men are increasingly uninterested in those women who show up later suggesting marriage, when they couldn’t get the time of day from them previously. Its obviously the guys wallet, not him, that the woman wants and divorce laws are designed to deliver that wallet to her.”
I realize now that perhaps I should have used a different choice of words to make myself more clearly understood, but I guess what I was trying to say was that I was not expanding on my previous posts, but rather trying to introduce a different kind of scenario. In my previous posts, I was wrote of women who are unable to meet men for marriage. In my most recent post, I was trying to address the subject of attraction or lack of it and how men and women are judged differently for having certain preferences when it comes to dating and relationships.
It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.
I was trying to address the subject of attraction or lack of it and how men and women are judged differently for having certain preferences when it comes to dating and relationships.
Indeed. Men are judged far more harshly.
It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands
Because that’s what we observe. Not in every case, but the vast majority. We observed women rejecting good men over and over (sometimes including ourselves) and then complaining that there were no good men. What else can we conclude?
It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.
————————–
How exactly does a reasonably attractive woman spend 15 years of her life with men vying for her attention and not run across one man worth marrying? If she doesn’t have an inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around, then how exactly does that happen?
due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.
If you can explain to men how to tell the difference between the types, you will have their undying gratitude.
NASWALT*
*But most are.
We need a new acronym: NAOHALT (not all old hags are like that)
Sharrukin,
Nice work picking up where I left off. Alas, I think it is wasted effort.
When she found logic she coudn’t refute, she dropped the previous line of rationalization and started a new one.
Now, she will entrench with the NAWALT attitude she flashed as an earlier defense.
Of course, I could be completely wrong…Not all women are like that and all that.
I think further discussion is just more hamsterbation. If she can not grasp how an “attractive, 30 year old with lots to offer” walked through 15 years of life and didn’t see at least a dozen decent guys, then she will never understand how “invisible” guys are.
I looked around my office. There are nine single guys here. Two, maybe three, appear on the radar for women. It’s a bit higher than normal, but that’s due to the field of work. All make good money. Four are divorced. They’re interesting guys who have travelled the world, fought in wars, and are into things like playing in a garage band, hiking the Appalacian Trail (in sections, during summers), etc. And they are invisible because most have a paunch, or are shorter than average, or aren’t great looking, or losing their hair.
No good men around? Please. I’d literally go to war with these guys, they are that worthy.
@ Perspective:
“It seems that a lot of people think that the reason some women have a difficult time finding someone to marry or have an ltr with is due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.”
This is a “Not All Women Are Like That” argument. You are trying to point to rare outliers and exceptions to disprove the general rule.
It is true that NAWALT. It is also true that most women or at least enough women ARE like that. They are EXACTLY like that, EXACTLY as described. They are entitled, make completely unreasonable demands, and want men they cannot have. Their expectations from men, relationships, and life are unreasonable to the extreme. They want hot alpha studs to have sex with them until they are ready to marry. Then they want those hot alpha studs to marry them right around the time they turn 29 or 30. They expect whirlwind courtships, being swept off their feet, $500 nights out, weekend getaways, vacations in Europe or SE Asia, and $100,000 weddings. They expect their men to have Brad Pitt’s looks, Fabio’s body, George Clooney’s charm, Warren Buffett’s money, and Billiy Graham’s spirituality.
WHat women expect of men today is ridiculous, outrageous, and unreasonable.
van Rooinek
To put it more succinctly, the hookup culture exaggerates women’s natural hypergamy, so much so that it may prevent her from ever mating.
Not only that, the hookup culture takes most or all limits off of hypergamy. Unleashed hypergamy leads many women to narrow their “field of view” so much that they can only see a tiny handful of men. Apex of apex, as it were.
Uncontrolled hypergamy is making both women and men miserable.
I think I have some idea of what Perspective is talking about. There are women who get little or no attention from men.
My last dating experiences took place when I was in my mid-30s under the final days of the Old Regime, before the hook up culture took firm root. There were a lot of women who were presented to me by female friends (usually wives of male friends, as I was the holdout bachelor in a large group of male comrades) who were unacceptable to me.
Some were just not as attractive to me as my friends’ wives thought they should be. A LOT were more athletic than I was (or am). I ran and bicycled a lot, so I had a good weight and was (and still am) fairly fit, but that fitness didn’t translate into prowess in any particular game, so after dozens of dates being beat by women in racquetball, tennis, and basketball, I decided to forgo the athletic type.
Others were pretty and feminine enough, but as dumb as a bunch of rocks. Men may not target intelligence in women, but they sure as hell filter for abject ignorance. After a while, the wives of my friends started getting snippy with me, telling me I was “too fussy” and that I really wasn’t much of a prize myself to be rejecting “all these wonderful girls”. Looking back in retrospect, I probably wasn’t. I was a pedestalizing supplicating beta boy with a bad case of oneitis for whatever just-barely-out-of-my-league girl I happened to have in my sights at the time.
The girls that I were rejecting were 2s, 3s, and maybe 4s. it was hard for me to accept that my SMV was that low, but it probably was ( My mid-30s self ranks -2, as a lower beta in Roissy’s SMV for Men survey). The things about myself that I valued were obviously things that women didn’t value, so I understand and sympathize when I read about women who want to be considered “awesome” because of their educational and career achievements.
Since I speak Spanish and Portuguese fluently (which actually seemed to work against me with American women), I married foreign and got a much better wife than I was likely to pull in the US. As far as I know, all of the 2s, 3s, and 4s I rejected 25 years ago are still single, so maybe Perspective has a point. However, so are two of the 6s I pursued.
My friends’ wives, I am happy to report, have all stayed married to my friends, so I have good taste in male friends.
Not only that, the hookup culture takes most or all limits off of hypergamy.
Parents can take a slice of the blame. Adding the princess mentality and entitlement (and other go grrrrl stuff) is like adding NOS to an engine already designed for the purpose of going fast.
A question I guess I would have, Perspective, is this. Many men I know find a significant majority of women attractive in a SMV sense; how many women find a significant majority of men attractive in a SMV sense? Are we talking 5%, 2%? So what I am getting at is this: are there different expectations between men seeking a marriage partner and women claiming to do the same?
I also hold to the notion of being repsonsible for and cultivating attraction. I do that with my wife. We really need to esteem people that have excellent character traits in higher regard, realize that all that glitters is not gold and that are basic animal attraction can be tricked and perverted (men and women). We have to take responisbility for ourselves and match our expectations to some sembelance of reality.
I don’t think many men here are going to cry because some woman didn’t deign to notice anyone but the top 5% of SMV men she came into contact with while whining about “there aren’t any good men”.
.., if a woman were to assess a man’s worth by his height or bank account she would be judged as shallow at best and likely with a barrage of other insults at worst. How is ageism towards women any different?
Men’s “ageism” toward women is not volitional. It’s a genetic impulse. Sexual attraction is simply an instinctive assessment of a person’s reproductive potential. (It doesn’t matter if you’re using contraception, if you are adamantly against having a child.. the sexual instinct is reproductive whether you realize it or not, whether you want it to be or not. Even a bulimic prefers food that tastes good, though she has no intention of digesting it!)
And women are more fertile when they are healthy and young. The cold cruel truth is that most women look better in their late teens than at any other time in their life… because that’s when they are healthiest and most fertile. (In a rationally organized society, that’s when they’d be married off. I know a professional colleague, of Texas Hill Country German stock, whose parents were 14 and 15 when they married. And they’re still together.)
If you’re over 30, do whatever you can — exercise, diet, etc — to try to look younger than you are. That’s all you can do. If you have a daughter, warn her to begin her husband quest at 18, not 28.
And for that matter, women’s preference for height and provisioning capacity (whether it be mammoth meat, or mammon), is probably genetic too. There’s nothing a man can do about his height, but any man can work his way up the attraction scale by making money. And, if it’s any consolation to my short brethern, at 6’3″ I had almost no success with women… until I started making good money. because MONEY is the gatekeeper for women, just as looks are the gatekeeper for men.
Slightly off topic… but… i thought nice guys finished last
Personally, I don’t find the majority of women attractive, although I would say I find a significant minority of them so (maybe 30%-40% depending on the setting and age groups). But I have a really hard time being inspired or turned on by a 7 or less. I wish it were otherwise and have tried dating less attractive women but it just doesn’t work.
Perspective:
“Now suppose a woman find herself in the same situation and turns down a man she is not attracted to and feels no chemistry with, but instead of her choice being met with tolerance and understanding like the man’s choice, she is branded as shallow and superficial? Is attraction not allowed to be an important factor for women as well? Or are they expected to be above that? If so, why?”
Of course attraction is an important factor to women. van Rooinek explains it well. The problem is that most people do not know or understand what “attraction” is. For men, attraction is looks alone. For women, attraction is about a man’s looks and status.
But men are never, ever told that female attraction triggers have anything to do with physical appearance or their status. Rather, men are trained that “attraction” for women is about “Compatibility”, or how nice, affable and agreeable a man is, how “relationship-ready” a man is.
So it is not that men don’t expect women to be “attracted”. It is that men don’t know what “attraction” for a woman is or what it means.
men are never, ever told that female attraction triggers have anything to do with physical appearance or their status.
Disagree on appearance. Lots of young men invest a lot of gym time, trying to make themselves more appealing to women. They understand quite well that women prefer muscles over fat. However… you can get to your 40s without anyone telling you the importance of status, and the psychological signals of status, in the woman-quest. Without status, even a perfect body gets you nowhere with women.
Rather, men are trained that “attraction” for women is about “Compatibility”, or how nice, affable and agreeable a man is, how “relationship-ready” a man is.
As Badger so eloquently put it, men ask for attraction advice, and are given instead, compatibility advice that presumes attraction. “Be nice, be yourself, work on your communication skills”, works great IF the woman is already attracted to you on other grounds — but it is FOLLY to believe that being nice, etc, will create attraction where there is none. Yet, this is what men are taught!!!!! As a result…
So it is not that men don’t expect women to be “attracted”. It is that men don’t know what “attraction” for a woman is or what it means.
… or, most importantly, how to improve it Raise your status, if possible (may take years of work) — adopt a more confident posture immediately — and stop making characteristic nice-guy mistakes that make you look like less of a man than you really are. Solve the status riddle first… then and only then will a good physique and a relationship-ready personality matter.
A woman has it easier in one sense and harder in another. Easier, in that she needs to focus only on physical attractiveness, not status. Harder, in that, since physical attraction can only be improved within natural limits, if she’s relatively unattractive physically there is no way to compensate — whereas, for a man, even the most physically repulsive man can get female attention by raising his status (power, money, fame…). Even STEVEN HAWKING has groupies!
“The cold cruel truth is that most women look better in their late teens than at any other time in their life… because that’s when they are healthiest and most fertile.”
That’s true. But it’s also true that women who still look good close to or around 30 have better genetics. So for discriminating men a woman looking good in her late teens is a maybe, whereas a woman looking good later is a better bet. The ideal is to give the woman a trial run to her mid twenties and throw her back into the pond without kids and/or marriage if she does not make the cut.
So much new reading material!
My feedback for Perspective: I can in general find something aesthetically pleasing, and something not-so-much-so in just about every woman. A woman’s ‘pleasantness’ (for lack of a better word) largely determines which things my eyes seem to pay the most attention too. Women that smile, laugh, and in general don’t come off jaded are ‘pleasant’. Which isn’t to say there aren’t varying degrees of attractiveness from the beginning. But, while a ‘9’ that isn’t pleasant isn’t going to have much marriage value, a ‘4’ is going to have to be a whole lot more pleasant to win that competition. The only advantage age can play in that equation is more experience and knowledge about how to be more pleasant than a younger ‘9’. But a woman only has that knowledge if she’s picked it up along the way, if she’s still imagining herself to be as ‘9’ as she was ten years ago, if she still believes she doesn’t have to compensate by being a little more pleasant, she doesn’t stand a chance against a younger woman.
Sure, the opposite plays true, no man who is re-figuring out the status game (I was working in Architecture, but the last three years have seen my first stretches of unemployment since age 16 ) should have any expectation of landing a 9 either. I don’t, I’m probably not shooting that high even when I do get back in the saddle. Thing is, I don’t think women are evil for wanting to win their game, while it seems that the majority of women think it’s evil that men try to win theirs. The older women that are outplaying younger women are those that play to what men are looking for, not those who are just as cynical/jaded/gender-politically-correct as the younger women they’re competing against.
women who still look good close to or around 30 have better genetics. So for discriminating men a woman looking good in her late teens is a maybe, whereas a woman looking good later is a better bet.
Except for one thing. The 30 yr old woman either (a) has a strong sex drive, or (b) she does not.
If she has a strong drive… she hasn’t saved herself to age 30 (with very rare exceptions.) She’s been slutting around the block, at best in “LTRs” with several “boyfriends” whose own fidelity is in question — and she likely by now she has fertility-inhibiting damage from STDs and/or abortion scarring. No chance of children then.
If she does not… then being married to her will be pure misery, you’ll be begging for sex and not getting it.
van Rooinek: I was just thinking of reasons why some or a lot of men (including me) find women (slightly) older than women’s most common prime more attractive. The ideal is to have her from the most common prime (18) to the watershed age (25) and get rid of her if she does not make the cut (improve compared to other women her age).
Usually when women hit 25 they start dressing a lot better. More expensive shoes (Salvatore Ferragamo instead of Uggs and dollar store flats), better fitting dresses of a higher quality (Michael Kors not Forever21), better accessories (tasteful Prada not the same obnoxious Coach purse everyone else had courtesy of daddy at 21).
Sigh, anglo women have no fashion sense.
Sharrukin,
“How exactly does a reasonably attractive woman spend 15 years of her life with men vying for her attention and not run across one man worth marrying? If she doesn’t have an inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around, then how exactly does that happen?”
I can see how most would think this would seem unlikely, but the fact remains there are women who are in this situation nut their reasons are not, as you stated, because she has an “inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around….”
Perspective says:
September 26, 2012 at 6:20 pm
The ‘fact’ does not remain because you haven’t proved that the fact exists. Merely believing something does not make it true.
But I get you Perspective, I see where you are. In a culture where you have been taught to look upon all strangers, and especially all strange MEN with suspicion, you probably have no idea how to actually signal attraction to a man. Its not your fault your social skills are poor, but you are a casualty of bad socialization from your cultural conditioning.
I can see how most would think this would seem unlikely, but the fact remains there are women who are in this situation nut their reasons are not, as you stated, because she has an “inflated idea of who she should be marrying, puts her career ahead of marriage, or simply wants to sleep around….”
———————
Then what are those reasons? Even if you assume she is only approached once a year by some man then you have 15 men. If its once every three months, you have 60 men. Once every month…well, you can do the math as well as I can.
Rock Throwing Peasant,
“Sharrukin,
Nice work picking up where I left off. Alas, I think it is wasted effort.
When she found logic she coudn’t refute, she dropped the previous line of rationalization and started a new one. Now, she will entrench with the NAWALT attitude she flashed as an earlier defense.Of course, I could be completely wrong…Not all women are like that and all that.
I think further discussion is just more hamsterbation. If she can not grasp how an “attractive, 30 year old with lots to offer” walked through 15 years of life and didn’t see at least a dozen decent guys, then she will never understand how “invisible” guys are.”
I’m sorry you thought it was a wasted effort, but in any case I still appreciated your response. I don’t feel I was trying to “refute” any kind of “logic,” and I don’t think I “dropped the previous line of rationalization and started a new one,” As I explained before, I was just trying to introduce a new subject in my other post. I’m not completely oblivious and I do understand how “invisible” some guys are.” In my opinion the “NAWALT” stance is valid, but I sense you don’t think it is and I’m not sure why. I’ve heard the term “hamsterbation” around here before but I don’t see how my posts can be described that way.
In my opinion the “NAWALT” stance is valid, but I sense you don’t think it is and I’m not sure why.
—————–
The exception that proves the rule. Arguing that there are exceptions is largely meaningless. It doesn’t alter the reality on the ground, and is commonly used as a way to attempt to disprove the point being made. Nothing in life is 100%. People have fallen from 30,000 feet in the air and survived, but that isn’t an argument against not making the leap.
ybm,
“The ‘fact’ does not remain because you haven’t proved that the fact exists. Merely believing something does not make it true.”
If it’s something I’ve actually witnessed then is that not enough to be considered fact or “proof?” I know I didn’t imagine it, so what else could it be?
“But I get you Perspective, I see where you are. In a culture where you have been taught to look upon all strangers, and especially all strange MEN with suspicion, you probably have no idea how to actually signal attraction to a man. Its not your fault your social skills are poor, but you are a casualty of bad socialization from your cultural conditioning.”
When you say “you,” do you mean the universal you? Or are you actually referring to me, Perspective? If you’re referring to me, then how would you be able to assess if my social skills are poor,?” how I interact with men in real life, or whether or not I’m capable of “signalling attraction to a man,” if you’ve never met even me? You’re saying you can glean all this over the internet?
Perspective says:
September 26, 2012 at 7:09 pm
One of these things is not like the other:
“If it’s something I’ve actually witnessed then is that not enough to be considered fact or “proof?””
“You’re saying you can glean all this over the internet?”
Let me help you with this first of all: Anecdote =/ Evidence. Your proof is in your subjective perception of a situation. This is an anecdote, good so far?
My proof is in the fact that you are not married and are complaining about being passed over, the proof is in the EVIDENCE of you being here. Now if you are LYING and indeed your anecdotes do not agree with reality, then of course my proof is also in anecdote, and is therefore not EVIDENCE.
Onto the point:
I am addressing you directly, because if you were able to signal attraction to men properly you would not be getting passed over at all, to be passed over is to imply and admit you have in some way, failed to attract said man.
ybm,
“My proof is in the fact that you are not married and are complaining about being passed over, the proof is in the EVIDENCE of you being here.”
You’re correct about my not being married, but where does it indicate in any of my posts that I’ve complained about being single or passed over? I’m here, because I find the posts interesting and informative.
“Now if you are LYING and indeed your anecdotes do not agree with reality, then of course my proof is also in anecdote, and is therefore not EVIDENCE.”
No, I’m not lying.
Onto the point:
“I am addressing you directly, because if you were able to signal attraction to men properly you would not be getting passed over at all, to be passed over is to imply and admit you have in some way, failed to attract said man.”
Again, where does it say in any of my posts that I personally have been passed over?
I think it’s that you offered the allegorical example. As pointed out by others, allegorical examples have problems when used as proof, except that we are most confident of the reality of our own allegorical examples. You may well be speaking of your friends’ experiences, if that is the case, I think most would be telling you that your friends aren’t telling you the whole story.
(Not used to posting without an edit button…I’m pretty sure anecdotal is the word I meant to use…)
They Call me Tom,
Gotcha
“Except for one thing. The 30 yr old woman either (a) has a strong sex drive, or (b) she does not.
If she has a strong drive… she hasn’t saved herself to age 30 (with very rare exceptions.) She’s been slutting around the block, at best in “LTRs” with several “boyfriends” whose own fidelity is in question — and she likely by now she has fertility-inhibiting damage from STDs and/or abortion scarring. No chance of children then.
If she does not… then being married to her will be pure misery, you’ll be begging for sex and not getting it.”
Or, she might actually be waiting for marriage due to religious, cultural or personal reasons.
Yes even today, there are still women (and even some men) who make this choice.
I know some of the posters on here are probably going to say these are the exceptions or outliers, but in certain communities it’s actually quite common.
Farm Boy,
“due to their sense of entitlement and outrageous demands. This may be true in some cases, but I don’t think it’s fair or accurate to assume that this is the case with every single 30+ woman.”
“If you can explain to men how to tell the difference between the types, you will have their undying gratitude.”
I’m not saying I’m an expert or that I have all the answers, but I think the way men can tell the difference between the types is just to pay attention to what she views as important, her values, if she pays attention to you and is not self-absorbed, expresses gratitude, is helpful to you and others, is kind, loyal, and doesn’t judge what you do for a living, where you live, the kind of car you drive, the clothes you wear, etc, then I think it’s a safe bet that she’s not one of those women with a sense of entitlement and outrageous demands.
“If you can explain to men how to tell the difference between the types, you will have their undying gratitude.”
And of course, there’s acceptance too. If she accepts you in spite of things she doesn’t like (provided it’s not abusive or harmful to either one of you or your children if you have any) then that’s also a good indicator that she’s not one to make outrageous demands or have a sense of entitlement.
me: If she has a strong drive… she hasn’t saved herself to age 30 (with very rare exceptions.) ….she likely by now she has fertility-inhibiting damage from STDs
Perspective: Or, she might actually be waiting for marriage due to religious, cultural or personal reasons.
I know all about that. I am a man, I lost my virginity on my wedding night, and I’m part of a religous subculture where that is preached and taught as the expected norm.
However, EVEN THERE, a substantial percentage are not virgins at marriage, either because they didn’t get religion til a little later in life, or because they walked out of church in their late teens and slutted around for a decade or so, before coming home to church to find a husband. Both sexes do this but it seems to me that the girls do it a lot more. I know more than one couple where the husband was a virgin at marriage and the wife was NOT, for just this reason.
Also, it must be said, that with people biologically ready to marry in their teens, and yet often “not financially ready” til past 30, it’s really, really difficult to wait. GONE ARE THE DAYS when young lovers would marry with nothing — now, the girls (even the Christian girls) will not even consider marrying a man til AFTER he’s made it. But if the girl has a strong sex drive, she’s going to do SOMETHING with it… get nailed by a tattooed drifter on a Harley, while her future husband sits at home on Friday night, wondering why he can’t get a date… and pornographers get rich.
V.R.,
Yes I’ve heard of this happening in these types of communities and it’s sad, not too mention hypocritical. I think it’s even more unfortunate when it happens in these communities, because it’s not like they weren’t raised to know what’s approriate and what’s not. I’m not condemning these people but neither do I agree or approve of promiscuity (for men or women) especially with the emotional and health risks, not too mention risk of unwanted pregancy. It’s just sad. I agree it’s true that some people (both men and women) have a hard time with self-control, but there’s also those who do somehow manage to keep their raging hormones in check until marriage. Even those who are close to or beyond 30. So it just seems unfortunate for those women close to or beyond 30, who actually did and do respect themselves, and yet still come across judgements from others who assume they haven’t.
Yes I’ve heard of this happening in these types of communities and it’s sad, not too mention hypocritical. I think it’s even more unfortunate when it happens in these communities, because it’s not like they weren’t raised to know what’s approriate and what’s not
Perhaps I should clarify: I don’t mean a “commune”….. I mean, basically, your average large church; there’s probably one within a few miles of your home. It was once the dominant culture of the United States, but it is now an increasingly marginalized subculture.
So it just seems unfortunate for those women close to or beyond 30, who actually did and do respect themselves, and yet still come across judgements from others who assume they haven’t.
Men who are virgins past 30, are often judged as “wimps”….even in churches. Even though, in my case at least, I turned down opportunities and was well able to fornicate if I wished, that didn’t matter — I was seen as someone who “couldn’t”, not someone who “chose not to”. The supreme irony is that back in my single days, if I’d had a “badboy”past that I repented of, I’d have been seen as more appealiing by a lot of churchy women; the returning prodigal is seen as s better catch than the righteous older brother who never ran away.
Women who are virgins past 30, in the church, generally either have STRATOSPHERIC expectations of men (6 feet tall, movie-star looks, high income, studying to be a pastor… ) and/or…. secretly they’re total bitches…. speaking from experience on both counts. Or, in a few unfortunate cases, they are “1”s who are so unappealing that they just can’t get any man, ever. Why do I say this? Because in an environment where men, or even just a substantial subset of men, are saving themselves for marriage, it is usually VERY EASY for a woman to get married, if she is even remotely attractive, personable, and approachable. Churches are full of sexually desperate, abstinent men who are praying for wives…. again, speaking from experience.
Vr,
At one church, a girl that wanted to marry simply shopped around the church until she found a willing man. She was maybe a six or seven, but had a vicious temper and a sharp tongue. The virgin men all avoided her. She found a reformed guy – no surprises there – and they promptly married.
Oh, the romance of it all …
VR,
“Perhaps I should clarify: I don’t mean a “commune”….. I mean, basically, your average large church; there’s probably one within a few miles of your home. It was once the dominant culture of the United States, but it is now an increasingly marginalized subculture. ”
Yeah, I figured that’s what you were referring to. But perhaps I should have wrote “church” community so you knew what I meant.
“Women who are virgins past 30, in the church, generally either have STRATOSPHERIC expectations of men (6 feet tall, movie-star looks, high income, studying to be a pastor… ) and/or…. secretly they’re total bitches…. speaking from experience on both counts. ”
But do you think it could also be that there are some 30+ women who may have strong libidos but are actually just shy and image conscious? I find it interesting that a lot of 30+ women are judged and indeed assumed to have been promiscuous by the time they’ve reached their age, but if they have in fact remained virgins, then that seems to come with a different set of stereotypes as well. If a 30+ woman is saving herself for marriage, is that even seen as a virtue anymore? Or just some kind of anomaly?
@Perspective
A virginal woman, outside of a traditional patriarchial society, is worthless
A virginal woman, is a virgin woman precisely because society dictates it, not because she wants to be a virgin
A virginal woman without strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her, becomes highly dysfunctional & damaged goods
Women need strong masculine men to balance their irrational illogical emotional behaviour & biology
A woman virginal or otherwise is worthless to society without strong masculine men, to put her in place
Women are meant to be dominated & in subserviance to alphas
Mack PUA,
“A virginal woman, outside of a traditional patriarchial society, is worthless”
What do you mean by “traditional patriachial society?”
“A virginal woman, is a virgin woman precisely because society dictates it, not because she wants to be a virgin”
Ever heard of an assexual? As in people who have no interest in sex. For these people it’s a highly personal choice, not one imposed on them by society.
“A virginal woman without strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her, becomes highly dysfunctional & damaged goods”
What exactly do you believe would cause her to become “highly dysfuntional & damaged good?” without a “strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her?”
“Women need strong masculine men to balance their irrational illogical emotional behaviour & biology”
There’s women are who are balanced and single.
“A woman virginal or otherwise is worthless to society without strong masculine men, to put her in place”
Why does she need to be “put in her place?” and why do you consider her “worthless” if she’s not?
“Women are meant to be dominated & in subserviance to alphas”
In some cultures and parts of the world, that might be the norm, but I don’t see that a lot in Western society.
But do you think it could also be that there are some 30+ women who may have strong libidos but are actually just shy and image conscious?
Maybe, but I never met one. Or at least, they didn’t have strong libidos regarding *me*….
I find it interesting that a lot of 30+ women are judged and indeed assumed to have been promiscuous by the time they’ve reached their age
No, No, No !!!!!!!!!!!!! Not “judged” and certainly not “assumed”!!!! That would be horrible!!!!! I am basing this assertion on THEIR OWN ADMISSIONS</b<. Not just the word of one or two, but quite numerous. I'd say a majority of never-married, over-30 women in most churches, are nonvirgins.
Why? We live in a culture where there's no social stigma to sleeping around. And, as it happens, it is MUCH easier for a woman to get sex, than for a man. A women who isn't hideous looking, can get "laid" any time she wants. That's got to be a difficult thing to turn down, day after day, year after year. Men, by contrast, often find staying celibate quite easy, since for most of us (except the top 10-20%) the opportuntity to have sex is very rare.
but if they have in fact remained virgins, then that seems to come with a different set of stereotypes as well.
Again, based on experience. If she’s saving herself for marriage, and yet the decades roll by and never marries, something is usually wrong; either she’s just not that interested in men/marriage/sex, or her expectations of a man are simply ridiculous (the proverbial 463 point checklist). Once in a while you’ll find a good one that just plain got overlooked — and didn’t weigh 300 lbs — but honestly, that’s rare.
If a 30+ woman is saving herself for marriage, is that even seen as a virtue anymore?
Oh, absolutely. But that’s a very rare prize nowadays.
oops sorry about the muiffed boldface tag
Vr,
Most of the churchian girls were not virgins. This was freely admitted. Needless to say, the church men that were, were suitably encouraged to man up, and date them.
Of course we know about Nawalt.
Problem: the vast majority of non virgin women quite willingly gave it up to the bad boy. Then freely mocked virgin men. The older the man, the stronger the mocking. Heres the double standard: there was no shaming of the women.
Go figure.
@ Perspective:
“What do you mean by “traditional patriachial society?””
The United States and Western Europe from about 1500 to 1900. Operated by men for the benefit of society as a whole, including women and children. A focus on Judeo-Christian mores and ethics. Traditional gender roles for men and women.
“What exactly do you believe would cause a virginal woman to become “highly dysfuntional & damaged good?” without a “strong masculine men to dominate her & balance her?””
A healthy woman grows up as a girl under the tutelage and protection of a kind, strong, masculine father. He is dominant in their relationship. He has firm rules for her and expects compliance. He sets the rules, she submits to them. He hears her, he listens to her, and he cares for her. He changes rules and practices in training her up when need be and when he sees they are not working. He imposes consequences for failure to submit. She learns how to submit to a strong man. She learns how to feel her feelings without allowing them to govern her conduct. He teaches her how to feel, but not be ruled by, her feelings and emotions. She also learns the proper and improper ways to interact with boys. Sometimes she cannot learn how not to be ruled by her emotions. Her father simply keeps her from certain activities until she learns how to handle them in a nonemotional way.
A young woman who has no father in her life, or has a weak father, never learns any of these things. She has only one reality, and that is the one that exists inside herself. Such a girl grows up learning that the only important things are those which affect her. It is all about HER life, HER emotions, HER feelings, HER wants, HER needs, and HER desires. And the only such things that matter are those going on RIGHT NOW.
She grows up as a bundle of emotions and allows those emotions to govern her life and her decisions, because she doesn’t know any other way. Worse, there are no consequences for it. Any “rules” she has had to follow are set by a mother, who is herself ruled by emotion and whim and is thus easily manipulated. Or the “rules” are set by a weak, ineffective, feminized beta father, who cannot or will not enforce his will upon her. So, she learns to evade or manipulate or lie about any “rules” her parents have. Any consequences are either nonexistent or ineffectual, because they can always be escaped or minimized.
She also learns that she can interact with boys any way she wants, because no one stops her or puts any controls on her. This usually means she manipulates them for attention, favors, gifts, dates and sex. She learns if it’s sex she wants, she can get that from the best looking, most attractive men anytime she wants, any way she wants. She learns that if there are consequences, it’s someone else’s fault, and someone else’s responsibility to handle them.
“There’s women are who are balanced and single.”
This is just a NAWALT argument. Most women are not, unless they have learned rules and consequences from a strong father.
I’m just past my mid-thirties, and to be honest, i just don’t expect that any woman who is single, in ym age range, and is still a virgin. When in my twenties I hoped to marry a virgin, because, let’s be honest, satisfaction with your spouse and commitment to your spouse would seem to be better served by not having other lovers to compare your spouse to. While I’m sure there are women who exist that are single, over thirty, and virgins (who don’t have issues); but a woman in my age range being a virgin has entirely left my set of expectations. By my late twenties, that had to some degree changed my own conduct, but only so much, the consequences are still there.
These days, a woman who has made to her late twenties a virgin has all my respect, because as deti mentions, sex for women is presented as being without consequences (if you don’t use a preventative, you can get a pill; if you don’t get a pill, you can get an abortion; if you don’t get the abortion, you can get child support). As a teenage male, I already well understood what I could be on the hook for in the way of consequences. Sure my dad expected me to be a gentleman in general with women, but if chivalry had ever failed to keep me from making mistakes, the consequences would quickly snap me back in line. I can say that of the friends who married in their twenties, two were virgin-virgin (both married at 21) on the wedding night. The other three, the husband had waited, but the wife had not (married in their late twenties). I don’t personally know any married couples where the man hadn’t waited, but the woman had.
(only anecdotal evidence of course)
of the friends who married in their twenties, two were virgin-virgin (both married at 21) on the wedding night. The other three, the husband had waited, but the wife had not (married in their late twenties). I don’t personally know any married couples where the man hadn’t waited, but the woman had.
Anecdotal, but accords with the observations of others. It is not at all uncommon, for a Christian wedding to take place, in which the husband is a virgin and the wife is not… or, if they are both sexually experienced, the wife typically has a lot more.
How can this be? Obviously each illicit copulation requires one male and one female. Answer: In the 20s, a small subset of Alpha males runs riot through most of the female population,* while most men are totally sidelined. Hence by the time you hit the 30s’, most women have lost their virignity and have racked up “moderate” partner counts — but on the male side you’ve got a few men who have HUGE partner counts, and a lot of men who’ve had no sex at all, or very little. Women, by apex fallacy, since they only slut around with Alphas who have such an easy time getting sex, tend to assume that ALL men can get cheap sex that easily. Uh, no.
The exceptions are generally those who marry young — like the virgin/virgin couples you describe, who married at 21. Those women who intentionally delay marriage til later in life — almost always for the sake of education/career — usually have no intention of saving themselves. Or, in some cases, they just can’t seem to help it. (I’ve heard a story or 2 of Christian women who meant to wait, but got seduced out of their virginity by some Alpha and just “couldn’t believe it was happening”.)
Do not be decieved. Women have a lot LESS sexual self control than men. We often mistakenly believe the opposite, because men have much stronger drives (or, perhaps, we are just attracted to a much larger percent of the female population), so we have to restrain ourselves all the time, or we’ll end up in jail. But women, who very seldom get that aroused, are seemingly blindsided on the rare occasion when it happens, and don’t really know how to resist: “it just happened.”
*Incidentally.., off topic a bit…. the same is true for rape. Most rapes are committed by a small group of extreme repeat offenders who rack up large victim counts. So you end up with a lot of rape victims, but very, very few rapists — and most men are totally innocent.
Do not be decieved.
Do not be deceived,either.. I know the right spelling, that was a typo rather than a spelling error.
VR,
“Do not be decieved. Women have a lot LESS sexual self control than men. We often mistakenly believe the opposite, because men have much stronger drives (or, perhaps, we are just attracted to a much larger percent of the female population), so we have to restrain ourselves all the time, or we’ll end up in jail. But women, who very seldom get that aroused, are seemingly blindsided on the rare occasion when it happens, and don’t really know how to resist: “it just happened.”
I’m going to have to disagree with the points you’ve made above, although I suppose I can see (although I don’t agree) why your perception of a lot of women would be this way, if that is what you have repeatedly encountered. However, tell me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you believe most women are sl@ts and/or nymphomaniacs who have no (or very little) self control. I’m sure there’s other men who hold these beliefs as well, but I think the problem with this mentality (even if it is based on many observations rooted in truth) is that it seems to encourage and justify sexual harrassement, hostility and in some cases, even physical and sexual assault towards women due to the belief that there all “nothing but a bunch of wh*res anyways,” not even human beings really, and therefore unworthy of being treated with respect. Is it even possible for men to interact with women in a healthy way when they harbour these kinds of beIiefs about them? What about women who are not promiscuous? Are they guilty until they somehow prove themselves innocent? How would men who believe this feel if other men were saying this about women they care about? Wives, daughters, sisters, mothers, etc?
*Incidentally.., off topic a bit…. the same is true for rape. Most rapes are committed by a small group of extreme repeat offenders who rack up large victim counts. So you end up with a lot of rape victims, but very, very few rapists — and most men are totally innocent.”
I want to make sure I’m understanding clearly. When you say “most men are totally” innocent, do you mean men who have been accused of rape, or men in general?
“but I think the problem with this mentality (even if it is based on many observations rooted in truth) is that it seems to encourage and justify sexual harrassement, hostility and in some cases, even physical and sexual assault towards women due to the belief that there all “nothing but a bunch of wh*res anyways,” not even human beings really, and therefore unworthy of being treated with respect. Is it even possible for men to interact with women in a healthy way when they harbour these kinds of beIiefs about them?”
Okay, now we have an opinion based on a perceived outcome. Men aren’t to think a certain thing because of how it might effect women? We’re not supposed to base our actions on reality but instead climb in the hamster wheel of satisfying women? Thought police much?
If the reality is that women acting outside of the covering of a father or husband tends to be a slut then why should I think about it differently? To suit some feminists PC standard? I don’t think so. Paul tells women to stay under their covering and warns men to fulfill their obligations to wives and children (as servant leaders not feminist boot-lickers). If that wasn’t enough we can look at the general revelation that society is providing us by observing the head-long slide Western Civilization is making towards Hell.
Perspective’s comments in this thread haven’t made much sense to me.
But then I looked up the origin of the name Perspective, and found that it is derived from the Greek god Perspectivus, who was the god of putting your fingers in your ears and shouting “na na na na na I can’t HEAR you” until the other side gives up.
Having researched this etymology, my world became sane and self-consistent once again.
@ Perspective:
“it seems like you believe most women are sl@ts and/or nymphomaniacs who have no (or very little) self control.”
No. You’re missing the point. When a woman is aroused and attracted by a man, she will do anything sexual — ANYTHING — for or with that man. She’ll crawl over broken glass to be with him.
The point is that average women just aren’t aroused and attracted to that extent by any men except the MOST attractive. So when it happens for her – the man, the circumstances, the chemistry, the time, are all exactly right and her attraction/arousal triggers are all pulled – she is completely overwhelmed. The feelings of arousal and attraction are so great, so intoxicating, so irresistible, that she simply goes with it.
Hence the descriptions we men routinely hear from women about these encounters:
“It just happened.”
“He was so beautiful, I just couldn’t help myself!”
“I don’t know what happened. One minute we were talking, the next I was in his car, practically ripping his clothes off.”
That’s what we’re talking about. Most men never experience that with a woman, because we find most women at least minimally bangable and because we men have had to learn to control our sexual urges. Any man who did this with every woman he found attractive enough to have sex with would never have time for anything else and would have been put in jail long ago. Women are not always available to satisfy us. In fact, most of the time, most women are not sexually available to most men.
Women, on the other hand, don’t really learn to control those urges because (1) they are not as frequent as men’s are; and (2) they don’t have to learn to control them because a man will always be available to satisfy them.
I’m going to say this again, Pers, because I really don’t think you get this.
Most men get very, very little sex. Most men live in a sexual desert. They get almost no attention from women at all. Most women are not sexually available to most men.
By contrast, any woman at a 4 or above in physical attractiveness can get sex anytime she wants it. All she has to do is walk into the nearest bar, say “Who in here is DTF right now?” and she can simply select the most attractive man from among the men presenting themselves.
I Art Laughing,
“Okay, now we have an opinion based on a perceived outcome. Men aren’t to think a certain thing because of how it might effect women?”
Thoughts influence actions. The perceptions people have others tend to effect their treatment of them.
“We’re not supposed to base our actions on reality but instead climb in the hamster wheel of satisfying women? Thought police much?If the reality is that women acting outside of the covering of a father or husband tends to be a slut then why should I think about it differently? To suit some feminists PC standard? I don’t think so. Paul tells women to stay under their covering and warns men to fulfill their obligations to wives and children (as servant leaders not feminist boot-lickers). If that wasn’t enough we can look at the general revelation that society is providing us by observing the head-long slide Western Civilization is making towards Hell.
It’s not about a “climb in the hamster wheel of satisfying women, “thought police” or being a “feminist boot-licker.” It’s about taking each person as they come and not making demeaning generalizations about an entire group of people, e.g. referring to them as “sluts” because they are “outside of the covering of a father or husband.”
GL,
“perspective (n.)
late 14c., “science of optics,” from O.Fr. perspective, from M.L. perspectiva ars “science of optics,” from fem. of perspectivus “of sight, optical” from L. perspectus, pp. of perspicere “inspect, look through,” from per- “through” + specere “look at” (see scope (n.1)). Sense of “art of drawing objects so as to give appearance of distance or depth” is first found 1590s, influenced by It. prospettiva, an artists’ term. The figurative meaning “mental outlook over time” is first recorded 1762.”
To go completely off topic, perspective probably existed before the early renaissance, as the issue of Iconography (whether holy things could be depicted in three dimensions or only in two, or not at all) was one of the topics of debate between Rome and Constantinople in the early days of Christianity.
To go back on topic… if one person says thought = action and another says thought =/= action, both may be experientially true to the person saying it. One person may live in the societal context of being able to act on their every whim without concern. The other may live in a completely different and opposite societal context, that no whim may be acted on. I think thats the point people are making. For a woman, often enough thought can (and so does) equal action. For a man, often enough, thought cannot equal action, he has to wait for the woman to have the same thought. That may come off derogatory, but that’s not my intent.
My intent is to say that for you Perspective, certian actions may be the inevitable consequence of certian thoughts. For most men, the current societal context requires the opposite. The action has to be seperated from the thought, because the thought is individual (is private a better word?), the action involves someone else (it’s a public thing). It’s not that women don’t seperate the two, but that they aren’t expected to seperate their actions from their thoughts (or feelings) the way men are. That is perhaps why you assume that men’s thoughts must lead to certian inevitable actions. The truth is, men can have a very great many thoughts that they do not act upon, and that they understand they cannot act upon.
Problem is Pers, in taking you as you come I see that you expect men to not look at society as a whole at the feminist doctrine in toto and certainly not ascribe it pervasive nature to women in particular. The reason you stated was the red herring that in so doing it would contribute to an abusive attitude on the part of men towards women. Oops, so by suggesting that women in society are by and large slutting it up as never before men are falling under the sway of an attitude less than desirable for women? Boo-freaking-hoo. Unless men toe the feminist line they will be sent to bed without supper? Unless they have the proper Kool-Aid thoughts they will be broad brushed (a concept you don’t seem to like expressed towards womyn) with the tar of sexual deviant/predator?
Ask yourselves this guys, why? What is wrong with recognizing the slutiness of modern women?
Improper/insufficient Pedestalization.
IAL,
“Problem is Pers, in taking you as you come I see that you expect men to not look at society as a whole at the feminist doctrine in toto and certainly not ascribe it pervasive nature to women in particular.”
I’d like to make sure I’ve clearly understood the above points you’ve tried to convey, so I’ll paraphrase and please feel free to tell me where/if I’m wrong. I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “in toto” but from my understanding it seems like you think I expect men to embrace feminism in its entirety, but without them acknowledging the negative aspects that some believe has resulted from it?
If this is what you believe, I’d like to be clear that that is not my intent. In one of my previous posts on this thread, I acually did express that although I would not condemn men or women who are promiscuous, NEITHER do I approve or agree with it. However, I don’t believe that feminism is to blame for this issue.There’s a lot of misconceptions surrounding feminism and that’s unfortunate. Just because a woman holds feminist views, does not mean she does believe in self-respect. So my issue is not with men who acknowledge promiscuity, it’s the often derogatory and vulgar manner in which it’s carried out. And the way that a lot of men seem to think most women by a certain age have engaged in “sl*ttery,” (whether it’s true or not) as some call it, or due to the belief that they didn’t have a man to “put them in their place.”
“The reason you stated was the red herring that in so doing it would contribute to an abusive attitude on the part of men towards women.”
How is this “red herring?” And if I’m wrong why is it that even some women who are decent and respectable have and are subject to abusive behaviours and sexual harrassment, crude remarks, and unwelcome groping from some men within in the workplace, at school, in public etc. It seems the men who engage in these behaviours justify it with beliefs that women are “only good for one thing,” or “they’re all a bunch of sl@ts and wh@res anyways.” etc. I can’t think of why else they would act that way.Can you?
“Oops, so by suggesting that women in society are by and large slutting it up as never before men are falling under the sway of an attitude less than desirable for women? Boo-freaking-hoo. Unless men toe the feminist line they will be sent to bed without supper? Unless they have the proper Kool-Aid thoughts they will be broad brushed (a concept you don’t seem to like expressed towards womyn) with the tar of sexual deviant/predator?”
I don’t think the feminists are making any threats here, at least not the ones I know. But with all the hostile, vulgar and contemptuous attitudes surrounding women and especially their sexuality, I really don’t understand how some men seem to expect that women should just keep quiet and accept it.
“Improper/insufficient Pedestalization”
What exactly do you mean by the above?
Me: (Forgot to add NOT before believe in previous post) “Just because a woman holds feminist views, does not mean she does not believe in self-respect.”
I
Actually, most of feminism tends to involve a lack of self-respect. Afterall, what self-respecting woman would take all the things that women exceed men at, and proceed to devalue them? What self-respecting woman would proceed to say that women will only have value when they are more like men? It certianly isn’t the men labelled this, that, or the other who are telling women that they aren’t of value, but the ‘feminists’.
I am not going to Church today to listen to the sermon; instead I read and re-read Deti at 11.56 on the 29th – absolutely on target – so I ‘d like to add: One of the reasons men are happy to boast or at least give a certain impression of their success with women, is because for all but a few, it is very rare and yet men often judge each other by their success with women (hence films with titles like ‘The 40 year old virgin”) – because as they know it is VERY hard work and a sexually successful guy is formidable and the envy of his peers – he instantly will attain Alpha status. The reason it matters is (as we know from Wagner’s Ring) that there is nothing for which men will give up the possibility of Love. Love (and thus sex) is what men seek over and above everything. You can climb Mt Everest, win the men’s final at Wimbledon or become a Rocket Scientist, but if you are poison to women men are contemptuous of you. The responsibility is entirely on the man all the time and the slightest misjudgement can kill the Gina tingle instantly. Women, by contrast, have no such concern for as Deti says they can, even if only a 4, go into any bar and select the most attractive guy for instant sexual gratification – indeed I’d suggest that it is usually the less good looking women who do this, as the good looking ones can and frequently do bask in the glow of male attention,- without thus needing to put out to gain affirmation of their desirability – or run the risk of obtaining a reputation for slutdom. Men are never put off sex, because the lighting is wrong or because the furnishings do not meet with their approval or for any other reason whatsoever.
As Deti says, even when it all goes wrong, women can shift the blame from themselves to the man in question – something a man can never do without looking like a petulant loser; for he will never obtain another man’s sympathy.
Abuse is conflated with biblical submission so often it is part and parcel with the feminist schtick. Are the feminists suggesting that properly feminized men (or women for that matter) are incapable of violence? It seems so. That is why also conflating a New Testament understanding of gender roles and promiscuity with abuse IS a red herring. I have observed matricide in matriarchal societies. I’m not buying the nonsense about the overarching evils of patriarchy, nor am I buying the exceedingly liquid and convenient values of feminism. (Kind of reminds me of a conversation someone around here on what the definition an purpose of Game recently).
In my book feminism is a humanistic (read idolatrous) religion with an imaginary goddess enthroned on it shrine in which most women see some reflection of their perfect selves while observant men see a opportunistic castrating whore. Feminism sitting astride the Beast of the West is Mystery Babylon in my book and like Jezebel she is going to get cast down. I don’t see it as a doctrine of equality, I see it as an ideology of domination.
I watched Alice Walker (author of “The Color Purple”) on Friday extolling the virtues of the coming global matriarchy, talking about “Democratic Socialist Feminism”…..apparently the reason socialism has failed everywhere is not that it is a broken religion but rather that it has never been operated solely from the purity of female hearts. Until feminists own the words that come out of their collective mouths discerning human beings should not let them sit at the adults table.
P.S. feminism IS a threat. It is rebellion against ALL authority, not just masculine but Godly authority. It will never abide the peace and security of an obedient and repentant child (in God the Fathers Kingdom). It’s a greedy and grasping tyranny and it can be nothing other than such. It something that needs to be repented of not something to be condoned, defended or applauded.
IAL,
“Abuse is conflated with biblical submission so often it is part and parcel with the feminist schtick. Are the feminists suggesting that properly feminized men (or women for that matter) are incapable of violence? It seems so. That is why also conflating a New Testament understanding of gender roles and promiscuity with abuse IS a red herring. I have observed matricide in matriarchal societies. I’m not buying the nonsense about the overarching evils of patriarchy, nor am I buying the exceedingly liquid and convenient values of feminism…”
Feminism isn’t about believing that women are perfect or can do wrong. It’s about equality; contrary to what many seem to think. Just because feminists criticise certain aspects of patriarchy, doesn’t mean they’re saying it’s “evil.” If anything, it’s seems more like the other way around.
“In my book feminism is a humanistic (read idolatrous) religion with an imaginary goddess enthroned on it shrine in which most women see some reflection of their perfect selves while observant men see a opportunistic castrating whore.”
You seem to feel very strongly about the subject, but are insults and name calling really necessary to get your point across?
“Feminism sitting astride the Beast of the West is Mystery Babylon in my book and like Jezebel she is going to get cast down. I don’t see it as a doctrine of equality, I see it as an ideology of domination. ”
The feminists I know do not wish to dominate. They are simply people who see themselves as just that- people. People who wish to be treated equally to other people and to have opportunities based on merit, not on gender.
“P.S. feminism IS a threat. It is rebellion against ALL authority, not just masculine but Godly authority. It will never abide the peace and security of an obedient and repentant child (in God the Fathers Kingdom). It’s a greedy and grasping tyranny and it can be nothing other than such. It something that needs to be repented of not something to be condoned, defended or applauded.”
I’ve tried to be respectful, but I’m not sure if you want a dialogue or to simply judge and condemn those who believe differently than you, but nonetheless, thank you for sharing your views. Although I knew feminism is not a poppular stance, reading your post has taken my understanding of that to another level.
Me: (Forgot to add no in front of wrong) “Feminism isn’t about believing that women are perfect or can do no wrong.”
“Actually, most of feminism tends to involve a lack of self-respect.”
Some adherents of feminism have had a miscontrued and misguided concept of what feminism is really about and that might account for some of the negativity directed towards the movement. It was never supposed to be about women not respecting themselves or ceasing to act like ladies. And of course, there’s non-feminists who are anything but respectful, feminine and lady-like.
“Afterall, what self-respecting woman would take all the things that women exceed men at, and proceed to devalue them? What self-respecting woman would proceed to say that women will only have value when they are more like men? It certianly isn’t the men labelled this, that, or the other who are telling women that they aren’t of value, but the ‘feminists’.”
Some might dismiss this as a NAWALT or rather a NAFALT argument, but many feminists in fact hold marriage, family and children in very high esteem, but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.
The first lie of feminism is that it is about equality.
Satan just wanted to be equal too:
“How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.”
(Isa 14:12-15)
Also mistaking equal value for equal roles or equal purpose is to ignore so much scripture as to be utterly ridiculous. God values women every bit as much as any man, this we know. However, He doesn’t condone a Title 9 like grasping at equality across the board.
“Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.”
(Eph 5:33)
“For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith. For as we have many members in one body, and all members have not the same office: So we, being many, are one body in Christ, and every one members one of another.”
(Rom 12:3-5)
So often the “equality” doctrine of feminists is nothing more than a veiled attempt at making every woman a head. (“Equal”). When in fact they are doing nothing more than expressing a complete ignorance of the Gospel. That is why that particular humanist religion is incompatible with the Gospel.
“but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.”
LOL!
I covered this one pretty well:
http://empathological.wordpress.com/2012/05/04/work-provision-from-god-or-means-to-rebel/
If those pursuits not done for the benefit of others they ARE selfish. You are obviously a secularist. Natural talents? Granted to you by what? Luck and evolution?
Me: “but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.”
“LOL!”
I don’t see how that statement was cause for a “LOL,” but I’d say we’re just going to have to agree to disagree.
“If those pursuits not done for the benefit of others they ARE selfish.”
If a family were facing financial difficulties and/or the husband loses his job or becomes ill and unable to work, do you not think that he and his family would benefit from his wife being able to work and/or furthering her education?
“Natural talents? Granted to you by what? Luck and evolution?
Not sure what luck and evolution has to do with it. The natural talents a person has are usually the result of being born with them, and then honed and improved upon with continuous work.
“but unfortunately they’re sometimes viewed as selfish simply because in addition to being mothers and wives, they also wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits.”
More moving goalpost nonsense from the feminist secularist.
“If a family were facing financial difficulties and/or the husband loses his job or becomes ill and unable to work, do you not think that he and his family would benefit from his wife being able to work and/or furthering her education?”
Is this what “wishing” is all about? You are honestly saying that mothers and wives “wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits” in order to help her family in case of financial difficulties, spousal illness and so forth? You expect to pass those to motives off as one and the same. LOL. One is the standard “I am Goddess, I need to reach my full potential as a human being.” (the “wish”), the other is I need to go to work in order to bail out my family (the reality).
Your skills, intelligence and natural talents arise out of some self-realized, self-actualized, self-creation. To quote the POTUS, “You didn’t build that”.
Trying to nail down a definition of ‘feminism’ can be as endless an exercise as trying to nail down a definition of ‘marxism’ when it comes to debating the merits and flaws with an apologist for the ideology. If a flaw is found in the ideology, the flaw is categorised at that moment, not really a part of the ideology. So I won’t chase it down too long. That said, can any definition of ‘feminism’ be created that does not compare women to men, and find women to be lacking? Yes there is a variety of explnations used in how it is that men are to blame for the things in which a woman lacks depending on one’s ‘version’ of feminism, but don’t all feminist arguments start with a comparison of men and women, and the women being the lesser of the two, a balance that needs to be corrected? Has a feminist ever asked herself what role feminist women might be playing at actually moving women’s rights in the wrong direction because of that initial premise that women are not currently equal to men?
To abstract things a little bit, which do you think would be a better way of advancing your esteem among your peers: Faking confidence until people have faith enough in you that the confidence becomes real? Or, painting a pessimistic picture of your own potential until people have enough sympathy to try to pull you out of your pessimism? I’ve had several female bosses, not a single one of them preached feminism, because their confidence and ability carried them a whole lot further than sympathy for some self-imposed plight ever could.
“More moving goalpost nonsense from the feminist secularist.”
I think it’s been established that you disagree with my views (and I with yours) but that alone is not enough to qualify my post as nonsense. You’ve commented about my supposed “secularism” but never have I once spoken of my religious views. And no,feminism is not a religion, it is more consistent with a political ideology.
“Is this what “wishing” is all about? You are honestly saying that mothers and wives “wish to use their natural talents, intelligence, and skills towards professional and academic pursuits” in order to help her family in case of financial difficulties, spousal illness and so forth? You expect to pass those to motives off as one and the same. LOL. One is the standard “I am Goddess, I need to reach my full potential as a human being.” (the “wish”), the other is I need to go to work in order to bail out my family (the reality).”
Did you not read my question? I never said that was what “wishing is all about.” I simply asked if it would be of some benefit to a wife’s husband and children in the face of certain difficulties.
“Your skills, intelligence and natural talents arise out of some self-realized, self-actualized, self-creation. To quote the POTUS, “You didn’t build that”.
Again, we’re going to agree to disagree. The more I read your responses, the more I’m convinced you’re not looking at all for dialogue but rather to condemn, judge and mock and those who believe differently than you and that’s unfortunate. Good day.
Feminism is a belief system. It is more of a religion than is preached in most of the churches in the West, in fact it IS the religion that is preached in most of the churches in the West. Feminism is about the fulfillment of women collectively and individually, it isn’t about self-sacrifice (the opposite of the grasping nature of feminism and feminists). That is categorically clear.
Feminism and it’s proponents are worthy of derision. It is the equivalent in my mind of someone trying to posit a sensible argument as to why it is fun and healthy to finger-paint with their own excrement. It natural that so many women gravitate to an ideology that totally coddles them and requires nothing from them but to suck up unearned accolades and to defend it to their last breath. No surprises there.
Why would you come here and put up a defense of feminism if you were looking to see it rightfully “condemned, judged, and mocked”? Troll?
Unless you were looking to see it rightfully “condemned, judged and mocked”?
“Why would you come here and put up a defense of feminism if you were looking to see it rightfully “condemned, judged, and mocked”? Troll?”
Nope, sorry not a troll. Was never looking for approval, but rather dialogue. Dialogue is sometimes possible between opposing views, but sometimes not and that’s ok.
Kinda like a Satanist showing up at the Body of Christ, I gotcha.
Or a vegan at a barbeque competition, if that is less offensive?.
“Or a vegan at a barbeque competition, if that is less offensive?”
Although I highly doubt you’re concerned as to whether or not you’ve offended the “feminist” I’m rather immune at this point and besides, I think I can recognize a veiled, albeit an ineffective attempt of one trying to “put me in my place” when I see it. Look, I get it. You’re not down with my views and I with yours. This has already been established, no?
Yeah, problem is that I’m sick of the fembots feeling an obligatory right to mark “their” territory by befouling every branch and rivulet of every public conversation and riding PC herd marking their territory wherever they go. Your opinions just don’t matter that much, they aren’t interesting or original. In fact if you had any idea how totally predictable you were that would be the first evidence that you grokked anything being said here. The fact that you can’t makes it that much funnier.
Heh.
“Yeah, problem is that I’m sick of the fembots feeling an obligatory right to mark “their” territory by befouling every branch and rivulet of every public conversation and riding PC herd marking their territory wherever they go. Your opinions just don’t matter that much, they aren’t interesting or original. In fact if you had any idea how totally predictable you were that would be the first evidence that you grokked anything being said here. The fact that you can’t makes it that much funnier.”
A “public conversation and riding” means everyone from the public may share their opinions. Believe what you want but realize others are free to do the same.
Funny, that’s never how the feminists see it.
Here is a perspective, Female Hypoagency.
Yeah, you exhibit it.
The Tyranny of Female Hypoagency:
The sentiments expressed on this article and in the comments reek of “playing it safe” and the concept that “there isn’t enough for everybody”. It reminds me of how my parents told me that because I am black and a woman, my dreams of becoming a fiction writer had zero chance of becoming true, and that I had better play it safe and get a career, specifically in the medical field. While they are right that being a black woman can make things more challenging, and they are right that its safer to find a steady career, how do they know that I couldn’t be the next J.K. Rowling? I mean, it’s not likely, but its possible, just like many things are possible in life. Telling a woman in her 30s that she should focus on settling and that she can’t have the best in life because of her age is silly. Is marriage the most important thing in life, or is the ability to be happy, confident, and positive regardless of what a person “has” or thinks they “don’t have” more important? I am 29 and I have a lot more men wanting to be serious and committed to me than I did at 21. Yes I’m attractive and have been considered attractive for a long while. But at 21, I lacked emotional maturity. Now I am maturing and growing spiritually. I used to beat myself up all the time and feel worthless for many years. Now I refuse to cause myself unhappiness and feel guilt and sadness over my past mistakes, and my love life improves as my self-esteem does. When women get “pumped and dumped” by Alphas or whatever, it’s not the Alpha men that are the problem. I see Alpha men getting married all the time. It’s when a woman does not know her own worth and value that she ends up getting “pumped and dumped.” You have to love yourself whether you are 21 with full lips and perky breasts or whether you are 31 and single or 45 and nearing menopause. Sometimes you have to tune out other people because people are full of negative baggage, anger, expectations, jealousy and pessimism. Just a thought.
I like the same youtuber’s video on Male Disposability, I saw it just the other day and was blown away. That women is brilliant.
Jojo:
Interesting comment. The point of the post is “advice to women over 30 looking to marry”. For me the issue is:
“what is a 30+ YO woman willing to do to find a suitable marriage partner?”
That’s really what it comes down to, beginning and end. It is about deciding what is important, and then forming a plan to get it for yourself.
No one here is telling any 30+ woman that she needs to settle and that she can’t have the best in life. However, in this SMP, if what that woman wants is to marry, she needs to get real. She is not going to get George Clooney or Brad Pitt or Christian Grey to marry her. That’s just not going to happen. But make no mistake: that’s what she expects. She still thinks she is as hot at 31 as she was at 21. She still thinks she can attract the same hot men for marriage at 31 as she could attract for sex at 21.
It’s great for you, Jojo, if you are still getting the hot men at 29. Most women can’t and don’t. Your telling them otherwise does them a disservice and will relegate them to spinster status.
As Jojo breaks out into strains of 29/31…..
“I’m hitting my stride!”
Being 3/4’s of the way into a mile means something, it means you haven’t haven’t hit “the wall” yet. I have been there on the brink of setting my peronsal best many times (as a young man) only to feel like someone kicked me in the groin in the last turn, you gut it out. No points for style.
You’re MMV (and SMV) are going to decline steeply and everything you have figured out now is going to get tossed to the curb (along with your ability to pass along your DNA in a meaningful way inside of the next decade).
Good luck with that.
Oh yeah, and Jojo. Don’t miss out on the benefits of playing it safe by resorting to the tried and true feminist tactic of hypoagency, it’s a strategy that has worked for centuries. On the other hand you could be all the woman that you can be and die with a house full of cats.
Hey deti, i agree, you make some good points. To me this is an interesting discussion. I dont pretend to know everything or anything. We all try to do the best we can. It is hard to understand the opposite sex on your own and i actually had to resort to reading books. I appreciate all men and feel life is richer with a good man. Let me just say that personally, I’m not looking for or chasing a hottie, lol. All I need is to be attracted enough to be able to have sex. Of course you examine things like compatibility,but I have never been the one stuck on the hottest guy. I look at things other than looks, ever since I first started navigating the dating world, with no direction, guidance, and a plethora of misinformation, like most people who grew up in the West. The man I am seeing right now, I adore. But I still vet him to see how committed he is. I make no illusions about my looks or aging. I have been blessed to be able to maintain good looks through taking good care of myself, but I know if I didn’t work out as religiously as i do or eat well, i wouldn’t still be as attractive at this stage. I didn’t just now sit up and start looking for a future husband. I have been looking in the past. The problem is that when a woman gets desperate, which can happen at 21 or 31, it invites mistreatment. Same for men. I guess this just reflects how I feel on the subject, but I learned the hard way that you have to, have to, have to love yourself. In fact you cant even give love without loving yourself. I am probably off subject, I realize that. But I read a lot of philosophical books, because there was a time that I focused obsessively on getting married, to my own detriment.
I actually had to look that up, hypo agency. Its interesting, as are the points you make. But I am actively dating and taking charge of my love life. I am active and proactive in meeting and hopefully settling down with a man who is ready. I really like someone and he really likes me. I would love for it to work out. I hope we make it. I was talking about upping your own value and worth as a woman so that someone actually wants to be with you. It’s a different approach. It’s not just about running after anyone who will have you. We don’t have to agree, no problem. Thanks.
I’m curious how a 29 year old woman goes about “upping her own value and worth as a woman”? More degree’s, more travel, more sexual partners? I suspect what a women finds valuable in herself and what a potential spouse find valuable are two different things nearly 100% of the time. Does “taking charge of your love life” include chastity? Or are you trying to sell a Holstein to a man drowning in free milk?
“The problem is that when a woman gets desperate, which can happen at 21 or 31, it invites mistreatment.”
Translation: Aging and having the realization that you can’t ride the carousal forever are an invitation to mistreatment.
If a man is desperate he’s pathetic, if a woman is desperate she’s a victim.
Perspective: However, tell me if I’m wrong, but it seems like you believe most women are sl@ts and/or nymphomaniacs who have no (or very little) self control.
Most women have very little sexual self control… in the presence of the extremely small percentage of the male population that they find attractive.
In a few occasions, that was me, and I had to fend off seductions from “Christian” women.
vR Most rapes are committed by a small group of extreme repeat offenders who rack up large victim counts. So you end up with a lot of rape victims, but very, very few rapists — and most men are totally innocent.”
Persp: I want to make sure I’m understanding clearly. When you say “most men are totally” innocent, do you mean men who have been accused of rape, or men in general?
In context, I was referring to the fact that most men, in general, are not, and never will be, rapists. But the very few who do commit rape, loom large in women’s consciousness (understandably so). This is the root of the “rape culture” falsehood — since victims are everywhere, feminists apparently presume perps are equally ubiqutious, and from this logical error they almost can’t help but conclude that “all men” must be complicit in some way (Uh, no), and that “men can stop rape” if we really want to (Alas, no.) All men are being blamed for the conduct of a small minority over whom we have no control whatsoever, other than legal prosecution after the fact.
I brought it up because I thought it was a useful analogy to the “Alpha” apex fallacy. Alphas are only a very small percentage of men. But they loom large in womens’ field of view, and it is common for women to falsely attribute lawless Alpha behavior – casual promiscuity, committophobia, philandering, etc — to all men. (Uh, no.)
It is true that there are a distressingly large number of false accusations (see, for example, the Innocence Project, which has unmasked many such.) I don’t believe however that “most” accused men are innocent, though even the low estimate of 10% intentional false accusations is distressingly high. But that wasn’t my point.
I art laughing: I’m curious how a 29 year old woman goes about “upping her own value and worth as a woman”? More degree’s, more travel, more sexual partners?
Projection at its finest. Those are the things that women find appealing in men. Degrees and travel have no impact… yes, i really do mean, absolutely zero impact… on your appeal to men.
For a man to be sexually experienced, generally makes him more appealing to women (even religious women who in theory should prefer a virgin man… though there are a few exceptions.) However, racking up higher numbers of sex partners is a definite NEGATIVE for most men, though, again, there are exceptions — a substantial minority that doesn’t care and a smaller minority that fetishizes it.
Attraction is not compatibility. but you’ll never get to know someone long enough to assess compatibility, unless there is attraction first. Attraction triggers for men are looks and youth. Cut carbs and hit the gym if you need to. Maybe upgrade the wardrobe a bit (but your new outfits should attraction-telegraphing, not status telegraphing)., and don’t put off the husband quest a moment longer.
Attraction triggers for men are looks and status. Degrees, travel, and (in many social circles) prior sexual experience, are status signals. They attract women. Men don’t notice them. (If you are comparably educated, that MAY be an aspect of compatibility… but compatibility is not attraction).
Or are you trying to sell a Holstein to a man drowning in free milk?
Only the small percentage of Alpha males are drowning in free milk.
Most men are dying of thirst.
Thanks for your reply
Lol, well no, it’s about being a more feminine woman, a woman who is authentic. Its about recognizing the importance of spirituality. It’s being able to love and to let go of baggage and negative opinions about life and relationships. Yes, its about sexual self control as well. To me, building value has nothing to do with your degrees or your extent of travel. It is the willingness to be vulnerable, which is a challenge for men and women. Men don’t want to be vulnerable with a woman who could up and leave them at any time.
The Western world is a tricky one to navigate. This is a place where the emphasis is on career and achievement for males and females. My own family was adamant about me pursuing a good career, but never a relationship.
I did the best I could, with the limited knowledge I have, and I can’t punish myself for that, even if you and others like you are so eager to do that. Because if i listened to negativity, I literally might jump off a bridge. Lol
I understand all the frustration here. It is hard because in the old world, or in foreign places, there is an effort to preserve women and groom them for marriage, so that there is enough to go around, and you don’t have to worry about a woman cheating. It’s for the purpose of fairness, I get that. In parts of Africa, it is so important to preserve women that they actually cut off the clitoris and sew up the vagina, for the husband to cut open upon the wedding day. By the way, usually the wedding day happens around age 13.
warning: graphic
I am doing my part to keep sane in a crazy world. I am currently in a relationship that I pray will last. Just trying to be a happy person so that others actually want to be around me. People want to be around happy, confident people period.
vR, I thought that comment out pretty well. That is exactly what I meant to say. I also meant to emphasize the actual attempt at selling the milk. They aren’t interested in men who honestly want to OWN the cow and invest in it, they are more interested in trading sex for status and money. Which is why some men are drowning in milk.
Your approach doesn’t sound dysfunctional Jojo.
Honestly, God Bless.
It reminds me of how my parents told me that because I am black and a woman, my dreams of becoming a fiction writer had zero chance of becoming true,
Hadn’t they heard of of Octavia Butler?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octavia_E._Butler
Anonymous, Jen, and any other 30 & 40 year olds looking to marry a good man,
I think a lot of posters here have been overly pessimistic and negative about your chances of finding a good man to marry. It can and does happen all the time for women in their 30’s. It does happen for women in their 40’s. Don’t let the negative posts degrade your hope and faith.
My wife was 37 and I was 38 when we got married. It was the first marriage for each of us. Years later we are still happily married.
One set of my grandparents married when he was 38 and she was 41. First marriage for each of them. I worked with a guy who married for the first time at age 44. His wife was about the same age. She was divorced with one kid.
I was in a large singles group in a large church. I saw a 35 year old with 3 kids find a nice guy and get married. Lots of of other 30 years olds found guys in that group. I saw 2 couple in their 50’s tie the knot.
I will be turning 30 in a week and I have to say I am becoming more open to the idea of older men 45-60 whom have raised kids and are divorced or never married. There is a very good chance that I can’t even have children, so that wouldn’t be a problem. If the man was open to having a child, I wouldn’t mind trying for a child or adopting a child. Also there is the advantage of looking young to these men, yet being more mature than a 20-25 year old. Nor do I have a sugar daddy complex. If these older men are set in their single ways, well same here, so it would be a learning experience for both. I don’t mind staying single either…. with the exception of one year, I have experienced singledom all through my 20’s. I believe that there is a partner for anyone out there who desires to marry, no matter their age. I’m sure if my career was a big deal, I would feel differently though. If I don’t ever marry, I don’t really foresee myself doing anything differently than I have done for the past 10 years.
Bee:
I don’t think we’re being negative. We’re realistic. Too many 30-something women expect marriage proposals from the alphas they used to date and sex up. It’s just not going to happen. The number one thing a woman at 30 needs to do is lower her standards.
The fact is a woman of 30 looking to marry is probably not going to marry as well at 30 as she could have at 22 or 23. She won’t be able to have children as easily, or as many of them. She just won’t. She is less physically attractive at age 30 than she was in her late teens and early 20s, and that limits the men willing to consider her for marriage. She has probably had a number of sex partners, because almost no woman in this SMP makes it to 30 without at least one sex partner, and probably more than that.
So by all means she should not give up. But she needs a dose of realism too.
It’s not that women in their 30’s or 40’s can’t find a husband. It’s that if she has the same world-revolves-around-you mentality or misandrist viewpoints they could get away with in their twenties, it’s going to be tough sledding in their 30’s and 40’s. Yes, women can mature past that 20’s mindset, present social norms encourage women to dive further into that 20’s mindset. I don’t think anyone has said a woman can’t get married past 20, they’ve said that a woman can’t get married to their make-believe alpha male who is marriage compatable in their 30’s and 40’s. It’s hard enough for a woman to pull that off in their 20’s.
deti & TCM Tom,
One post said that Anonymous should give up and joint a convent. I thought that was mean, snarky, and not constructive.
Two reasons why I thought posts that compared and contrasted the market value of women in their 30’s to women in their 20’s were overly negative.
1. When someone approaches you for help, It is bad counseling technique to begin with the constructive criticism. Consider this example. You are hiking in a rural area. You hear cries for help from abandoned water well. A woman in her 30’s has fallen into the well. You happen to have a strong rope in your day pack. Before lowering the rope you lecture her, “you should have been more careful, you should not have been texting while you were walking.” As you coach her on tying the rope around her waist you notice that she is 20 pounds over weight. Your next comment is, “if you had kept your weigh down, you would be a lot easier to help now.” At this point in time everything you have told her is true, but these are issues that she can not change right now. She can not go back and change the mistakes she made in her 20’s. My approach is to pull her out of the well first and then talk with her about correcting her mistakes and making changes going forward.
2. I failed to connect the dots on your arguments. Only when I reflected more deeply on your last post did I realize that your reason for highlighting their decreased market value was to motivate them to lower and eliminate unreasonable expectations. My bad, sorry I did not catch on to that earlier.
I agree with you that lowering and eliminating some expectations are critical. If they are in their 30’s finding a guy worth marrying is hard work. It will need to be a goal that is moved up high on their priority list. Changing geography and/or changing churches may be necessary.
Jean,
Kudo’s to you for being content and comfortable with being single if necessary.
Kudo’s to you for lowering your expectations and being willing to consider an older man.
A word of caution. Don’t assume that just because a man is older that he is necessary better than a guy your own age. You will still need to use a lot of discernment, caution, detective work, and interview skills to make sure he is a good catch.
Some older men are more mature and mellow than younger men. But, some older men have just piled up more time to reinforce bad habits and bad attitudes. Be especially on the lookout for older men that have never tried to improve their character flaws. Be on the lookout for men who have been stockpiling bitterness, resentment, jealousy, and/or victimhood. Many second and third marriages end in divorce because a partner with unresolved bitterness/resentment projects that onto the new mate.
Bee said: “When someone approaches you for help, It is bad counseling technique to begin with the constructive criticism.”
Most people here don’t consider this a place to hand out advice to women; Dalrock’s title aside. You seem to think that we should care what a thirty year old re-re-virgin thinks about our opinion, or that we would be interested in using our ropes to rescue someone who intentionally jumped down the well and shows every willingness to do it again at the first opportunity. I think that your “women need to be rescued” analogy is very indicative, it conveniently ignores their agency and hastily transfers their plight and all responsibility to the grown up at the top of the hole with the rope. That analogy objectifies the woman.
“At this point in time everything you have told her is true, but these are issues that she can not change right now. She can not go back and change the mistakes she made in her 20’s.”
No, but she can stop making those same mistakes in her thirties. And she can stop having white knights chucking their wicks around in the hopes that they might get them wet. Are they willing to work their way out of the well so that they will be some earthly good or will they insist on being infantilized by men who can’t keep their “Rescue Ranger” in check?
There is an old saw we go by when in ministry: “Don’t fix the fix that God put in place.” If God put’s people into a predicament sometimes the worst solution is to resolve for them. If they insist on not exhibiting any agency in the form of repentance (unwilling to help themselves) then usually it’s best to let them stew.
“For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat. For we hear that there are some which walk among you disorderly, working not at all, but are busybodies. Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness they work, and eat their own bread.”
(2Th 3:10-12)
Subsidizing bad behavior only encourages it. Not letting the unrepentant find bottom is evil.
Bee, I Art Laughing makes a good point regarding ‘agency’ in your allegory. The thing really is, that to move forward, first you have to admit there is something to move forward from. If an individual cannot do it on their own, if someone else means to help them, they first have to help them see what they need to move on from. Not everyone can be helped by counseling (that’s what I gather reading C.G. Jung’s discusssion of psychotherapy) but no one can be helped without knowing the problem. Now, if pretending to have made no mistakes, having no regrets, is all just a bit of attempted self deception, and the mistakes made are actually known, there’s no need to dwell on them. But, if that self deception has been successful, the first step at moving forward is for that self deception to be dispelled.
I Art Laughing,
This specific post and its comment thread were set aside by Dalrock as a place for advice for women looking to change. A quote from Dalrock’s post:
“I decided to respond to this in the form of a post largely because I hope to enlist my readers in this process as well. If you have any kind wisdom to share with her, please do so.”
The tough love approach you advocate is an important and necessary method in counseling. But it should only be used on repeat offenders. If the woman out for a hike falls into the same well a second time, then letting her stew and contemplate her mistake is appropriate.
Assigning “homework” to assess the seriousness of a help seeker is a good filtering method.
Bee, any single women in her thirties IS a “repeat offender”.
@FM
JSL, Lia and jojo, what on earth did I just read from you bunch of angry, bitching yentas? Thanks to Deti for sorting through that trash! I couldn’t even stomach it.
I’ll keep saying it. No woman over 30 is worth marriage. None, no exceptions.
Yes! Thank goodness for Deti and the hamsterlation….I am always confused by these wimminz moronic posts..that is until,Deti translates for me.Also,”YENTAS”……avoid them at all cost! You will never have enough money for them…and they will spend you broke! How do I know this….simple really…I am Jewish!
The one thing that really “irks” me the wrong way is that you will notice that all the Femi-Nazi leaders that created the Femi-Nazi movement and write all the books are Jewish! As a Jew myself this pisses me off to no end! I avoid Jewish women like the plague! If you know any Jewish wimminz take notice of something next time.You will see the Yentas or JAPs(Jewish American Princesses) with the most butt ugly men you could imagine.Why are they with them?..Simple!….MONEY!!!!!! They are the greediest,materialistic,shallow wimmin that you will ever meet!…I know lots of them! My parents always insisted that I marry a Jewish woman….I laugh it this! If I married a Jewish women,within 2 years she would own EVERYTHING that I have…and I would be left without a pot to piss in!….GUARANTEED!
@Opus
“”She says he blames it on mutually incompatible religions ( why am I getting the feeling Pillish is Jewish?) “”
I agree! I was thinking the same thing reading her post.As a Jew that was my first notion!
@Mark
Pillish rather reminded me of my (ex) american Jewish girlfriend and her endless excuses.
I have avoided responding to a lot of these. Some were false accusations, misconceptions about things I wrote, and some of them actually made me laugh. The last comment I wrote, I had meant it would have been frustrating to date me at 24,25,26. I didn’t know what I was doing in this world, what I wanted to do, or who with. I drove myself nuts part of the time let alone being with a partner. I knew I wanted to be able to take care of myself, travel, explore, and guys my age who were looking for a wife at that time didn’t want to do that. 30 is young in most places today, and with the divorce rate being what it is, no wonder educated people in today’s society choose to wait before making a commitment like that. I’m glad I was able to have my own adventures, get to know the world, grow as a person so I could make a good wife eventually, and figure out who I wanted to spend the rest of my life with, is humor more important then math skills? ( just an example) I spent over 2 years finding an apartment in a city to buy and knew I wasn’t going to be with that apartment till I died, this is a big decision for both parties to make, and with the world being as it is in this generation wouldn’t you rather marry a woman who I sure of her self and her choices instead of a 26 year old who has only been living on her own out of school for 3 years?
@Deti
“”Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.””
Lmao!……….you just described a womyn cop…….they dress like men…..act like men….they are a joke!…I love talking to wimmin cops……”Yes Sir”…”No Sir”……Their response….”Do I look like a man to you”??……”YES! you do!…..a short,angry man with boobs”…..Lol!
@Deti
“”you shall definitely not have a chihuahua named “Bruiser”. In fact, you shall not own a chihuahua.””
Wouldn’t a chihuahua or a cat make good food for Jenn’s snake?……just saying!
@DaringHart
“”b. Such women tend to act like men. They don’t tend toward the feminine in speech, manner or dress. Jenn, there are few things less attractive to men than a woman who acts, talks, and/or looks like a man.
I see this as the #1 problem with today’s female. There is NOTHING that turns a man off faster than this….. otherwise we would be gay. Loud, obnoxious, cursing women….YUCK. Check back on these girls in a few years. Old, wrinkled, alone.””
Yes!…..I agree!…..you just described a Womyn Cop!……UGH!
@Deti
“”So it’s been pointed out to me that Clint Eastwood owned an orangutan in one of his movies.””
Every Which Way But Loose was the movie. But yet,remember Michael Jackson at the Grammy or Oscars..etc..etc.Everyone else brings a date.Not Mikey….he brings a fucking monkey! Probably screwing it also!
@Dominique
“”Reversing the whole “friend zone” game can be a man’s best friend, because it takes all of the so called power away from women. From a distance they come off as “good” catches, but with me being on the inside, I can tell you that they ain’t worth the trouble, energy, time, resources, and mental headaches and heartache. But they all think they are well deserving. One is a weed-head, big f**king deal you’re a V.P. at a major bank. One has sex for sport, because that’s all she thinks men are good for. One has such high expectations that I know there is no man on this earth can meet even half of them, but at the same time she brings nothing to the table, but herself and her sorry p**sy. (I had the chance to sample it; a waste of a good condom and hard-on) One stands 5’6” and weighs over 250lbs, but wants only a man who’s in shape and works out regularly. One is in debt of over $100,000 and was before she just purchased a house and a new SUV a few months ago. And one is starting to develop the signs and symptoms of per-menapouse, but demands for any man she dates needs to stay on hard, have “staying power”, and must be longer than her hand!!””
Awesome post!………shows you how delusional these moronic women are! Just to add something.I was speaking to a 26 male stock broker the other day.I inquired as to why he was not “sport fucking” any of the women in the office.He told me..”fuck that noise!…all those women are fucked in the head…all they do is go home and take off their clothes for strange men on the internet on webcam….no thanks!”……Lmao! I laughed my ass off….but I believe him! Shows you the “classy” wimmin that he has to look forward to!….NOT!…..LOL!
This is an amazing article- I am a 31 yr old female who has finally found a man to marry! He is in his mid thirtes. I have to say, for me, I have spent years dating alphas and had sexual relationships with a few- my fiance now is not an alpha but is an amazing man. I have made compromises- a good job over height (he is my height – 5 feet 9 ish), he doesnt look quite like the men i’m used to dating but he is solid, has an amazing job which is a useful bonus in these tough economic times but finally I am at that stage where I don’t feel i’ve settled- I just feel very very blessed to find someone like that.
I have never been an angel and I do regret some of my past actions but it makes you who are, Despite the comments here, being in ur 30s does NOT make you old- you are older and wiser- that is all. Personally I have been blessed with still looking like I am in my 20s but that is another matter 😉 People are living well into their 80s and provided you look after yourself there is nothing negative about being over 30.
I’m a 32 year old virgin woman (soon to be 33 in January) who looks considerably young for my age. This could be due to not partaking in a “party lifestyle” at any point, even during college, I stayed away from drinking and sleeping around. I have had two boyfriends but they were both long distance relationships where we never went all the way, so I’m not completely inexperienced as far as relationships go. As far as my standards go in a partner, looks are not of major importance to me, but intelligence and humor are. That is why it is difficult for me to maintain interest in someone, no matter how good looking they may be.
One of the reasons I’m still single is because I live with my parents as of now due to economical reasons, and when I wasn’t living with my parents, I was extremely shy and self-conscious due to being overweight and symptoms of Asperger’s Syndrome. I have since lost a good amount of weight, not to mention letting my hair grow long, and am planning a move in a couple of months to a major city after I have saved up enough money. I would like to have a relationship that would eventually lead towards marriage. I am not sure how to go about dating. I’d like to avoid places where hook-ups and casual sexual encounters are encouraged. I know that my age would be working against me. I also have to worry about my older brother who lives in the city in which I am planning a move because I know he is going to size up any person that I might date. I guess if there will be a movie for a 40 year old female virgin, I will be a likely candidate.
So if anyone has any advice on how to go about choosing a life partner, please help me out.
Christine, a question in my mind is this? What do you want to bring to a marriage? And a follow up: what do you expect from a marriage? Do you want to find a good man to submit and commit to, or do you want to find a pet man who you can have submit and commit to you?
I knew I wanted to be able to take care of myself, travel, explore, and guys my age who were looking for a wife at that time didn’t want to do that.
Its likely that they did want to do those things, but understood the costs associated with those activities and decided instead to attempt to build a stable life conducive to supporting a family.
When I was in my 20s and looking for a wife, I was very careful about my spending habits and was focused on saving and investing. Meanwhile my coworkers were always going into debt on new cars, expensive vacations and other useless consumer items.
Its no wonder that men who sacrificed and saved in order to be a responsible father are increasingly unwilling to give what they earned to globe-trotting strumpets who gave her best years to anonymous men in exotic locales.
Unless a young man is a rich heir, he his unlikely to be able to afford all the travel and “experiences” modern women want and still be able to responsibly provide for future children.
If you marry young and spend/save responsibly you can have children and then spend midlife travelling like what my parents and grandparents did.
I Art Laughing:
I am not a domineering person, so I am not looking for someone to control. I wouldn’t mind taking on a submissive role but I would hope to find someone who is my equal. For marriage, I want to bring affection, caring and loyalty. I like showing someone that I care for them, the odd thing is, I have met some men in the city that I currently reside, that being New Orleans, who prefer more outspoken, brash, independent and “feminist” minded women. I don’t identify with the feminist movement with the exception of one or two pet issues, and I just can’t be the aggressive woman who “challenges” them that they would want me to be. I’m more of a peacekeeper. I don’t expect marriage to be a dream though I do have a romantic mind as far as meeting someone who can connect with me goes.
Christine, in my opinion men that like women like that like them because they are also sexually available. They aren’t marrying them. I also suggest that you keep your brother in the loop, he may be an asset when it comes to sorting out the intentions of a man. He may also be able to help you network. There are a lot of messed up people out there, if God has a husband for you you need to be diligent to prepare and patient to wait. Understand that it is a humble and quiet woman who is serving God that will attract a Godly man’s attention.
Christine:
Most women today who are “outspoken, brash, independent” are feminist. Those tend to be code words for “bitchy” which is unattractive. But as IAL said, those women tend to be more sexually available (code word for “slutty”). Another thing to keep in mind is that you don’t have lots of time. You will be at least 33 when you marry. Expand your attraction filters so as to let in as many potential mates as possible. This will make it a bit easier. The fact that you look younger is a big plus. But having children might be a problem. Your older brother is likely to be a help, not a hindrance.
As far as what you bring to a marriage, I’d suggest:
1. keep your physical appearance as good and attractive as possible. Keep your weight down, your hair long and your makeup on.
2. Learn some domestic skills. Learn cooking, cleaning, caring for a house, and child care.
3. Decide if you want children. If you do, you have no time to waste.
4. Be nice, pleasant, and kind, with a cheerful, optimistic attitude.
5. Try to avoid profanity and vulgarity in your speech.
6. These traits are unattractive in women: sarcasm, caustic speech, vulgarity, profanity, pessimism, nagging, complaining, dominance
I would like to have a relationship that would eventually lead towards marriage. I am not sure how to go about dating. I’d like to avoid places where hook-ups and casual sexual encounters are encouraged
In theory, church. However you may find hypocrites, and in some churches the hypocrites outnumber the real Christians. And if you, yourself, are not religious, I don’t know how to help you, since devout religous types are commanded by Scripture to confine their matrimonial choices to those who share their faith.
Mild Asperger tendencies are not a barrier to romance. Just how far on the spectrum are you?
The lonely legacy of my Sex And The City lifestyle: Claudia Connell gives a painfully honest account of how she came to be living alone in middle-age
The money quote:
“….it’s an uncomfortable truth that the sort of high-flying alpha males we were all holding out for didn’t want women like us. All the successful men I know have married sweet, uncomplicated women who are happy to forfeit their careers to support their husbands.”
Move to California! So many single guys there, and by extension, single guys in church.
why should she get all the rewards of this institution after obviously pissing away the best years of her life travelling, career, finding herself and whatever else occurred in that decade. This is only a sample of n=2 that I know 29/30 years old respectively. They are under the impression that they can bag a husband when they feel like it. The trips to Oz, Bali, Las Vegas etc. only included backpacking nothing else (of course we believe you heh) not a surfer dude or roackbanddrummer to be heard of in either location. Good sanitisations of the sexual history as you know. Looking at the stats give it 7 years before she decides I’m just not haaapppppyyyyyyyyy and the kids and husband suffer, f**k that noise. How can any man risk marrying a woman who has travelled extensively all over the world with friends and think she can keep a non-slutty reputation intact, OH wait I’m a misogynist, knuckle dragger how dare I judge her behaviour when she was travellinnnnngggggggggggg.
Many manosphere lessons in this article:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2263518/I-left-love-life-I-thought-I-better-Now-Im-childless-42.html
Anonymous:
I read the article. It’s sad, really. Nice looking woman. She could have had a decent life with her man, maybe not the best life; but still a decent one. Now she’s at best a cougar, good for maybe — MAYBE — an LTR. No one will take a flyer on her for marriage.
That was a whiny, self indulgent article. She felt her high school boyfriend wasn’t right for her at the time and dumped him and didn’t find anyone better. Now she’s complaining. If she’d found someone better this article would be all about how women shouldn’t settle. I dumped my high school boyfriend, married a man I met in college and have not a single regret. You win some you lose some.
Justinians comment said a lot:
“When I was in my 20s and looking for a wife, I was very careful about my spending habits and was focused on saving and investing. Meanwhile my coworkers were always going into debt on new cars, expensive vacations and other useless consumer items.”
That was my experience too. It’s taken two decades to afford the recreational stuff I wanted to do in my twenties. Women don’t get that. That want it all, now. Travel, cars, cosmetics, all on credit.
I think it was TFH who said women just don’t get cause and effect. That if you spend what you don’t have, someone eventually wants it back. With interest.
I find it annoying when, in hindsight, a woman figures it out. It’d be much better if they figured it out right away, when they could do something about it. It’s almost insulting in the end, when they contact you many years down the road, that they’re now willing to take what you have to offer now that they don’t have anything to offer in return. But it is what it is, and in the end those women don’t really matter. The only thing that matters is the woman who does want to give you the best she has to offer.
I am not sure I buy the ‘woe is me’ from the article linked by anonymous at 12.19 am on the 17th January. She is not bad looking and is only 42. Those look like crocodile tears to me, because had she really wanted marriage, then how come she had not managed that in her early twenties if not before – in some later message I will bemoan the fact that I am not a Nobel Prize-winning scientist or dot-com millionaire and expect much sympathy. I always look at the comments to The Mail articles especially the red-ticked which is how I came across the commenter going by the name of Hungry Horse from Horseville, who on the 17th January, points out that what men want and desire are looks and fertility. Naturally that has been red-ticked more than any other comment. Can we really be so far out of synch with the rest of the inter-web, for had I not known otherwise I might have assumed it is the sort of thing Deti might have written. Are women capable of anything other than sympathising with other women – or is it that back-handed type of sympathy of which Dalrock has sometimes written – where they gloat over their would-be rivals misfortune under the guise of sympathy?
“Are women capable of anything other than sympathising with other women – or is it that back-handed type of sympathy of which Dalrock has sometimes written – where they gloat over their would-be rivals misfortune under the guise of sympathy?”
The latter. Team woman only looks after their own when it is their personal best interest.
interesting and on point
http://www.wnd.com/2013/01/want-a-man-stop-being-a-b-tch/
When I was in my 20s and looking for a wife, I was very careful about my spending habits and was focused on saving and investing. Meanwhile my coworkers were always going into debt on new cars, expensive vacations and other useless consumer items
Ditto. AND…. the guys who had all the “stuff”, were assumed to be well-off, and got dates… til the girls found out that they were so poor they had to go dutch for dinner.
Whereas my guid frugal self, in jeans, boots, and a dusty pickup truck, had PLENTY of money in the bank and I could afford expensive dates… on the rare occasions some church chick would actually speak to me.
Singleness. How I hated it.
Classic! I just read both articles……it sounds like many of my girl friends in the U.S. in their late 20’s/early 30’s……. I wish I could feel sorry for these women……but I don’t. They weren’t a ‘catch’ when they were younger……and even less so now. Good luck ladies!
I’m a woman 28 years old, and I’ve been single for a year, after my 7-year boyfriend( I was with him from my 20-27), who promised he would marry me after I finished college( he said he wouldn’t marry a woman with NO degree, what about that guys????), broke up with me.
We use to fight a lot, because of his reluctancy in talking about marriage, children, etc..ALL our fights were because his behaviour was not compatible with someone who really has plans for a serious commitment…he was MY ONLY BOYFRIEND and the first and only man I met sexually.
Another detail: I had a condition that made me gain several pounds, so I went from being svelte, elegant, pretty face and 5’8…to round, pretty face and 5’8(although not obese), and he was allways tallking about that..
NOW, I’m a 28 YO spinster, back in the single market again…and as I am still finishing my university education, I have no time to meet new people, I barely have time to go out with my ( fewer) old friends that aren’t yet married…and is really hard to loose weight when needing to study very hard daily and with no much time to gym!
I spent my entire 20’s with the wrong guy and locked at home studying…what do you advise me to do to find a nice guy to whom I can give my devotion and be a good spouse?I’ve never been a feminist or anything like that, and I’m not looking for a Alfa,just a nice guy who really wants to get married and star a family!
Am I too old to have that kind of aspiration?
Carolina.
What is your priority? Is it having a family? Or is it about getting advanced degrees?
Don’t assume the two are compatible.
Be a virgin, look for a man who will marry, instead of giving it all away to a man who ‘promises’ he will marry if you’d just give him the sexy now though…
The Bible is quite straight forward about this, choose to ignore that at your own peril. The modern lifestyle of lots of sexy before marriage, plus many advanced degrees in how to shuffle paper and modern Independent woman TM (I don’t need no man!) is the following of Satan. You’ve been warned…
My sympathy for women who just will not follow the obvious is wearing rather low… like 6 feet under the ground low.
I Art Laughing ,
If I would have to choose between the 2, raising a family would be my priority.
But is that there are still men in my generation who are willing to sustain a woman for the rest of their lives so they can stay home taking care of children? Most portuguese man (I’m from Portugal) call that woman “lazy” and “self-serving” and say that they don’t want a woman like that…believe me!
carolina:
No, you’re not too old but time is running out. Yes, you spent too long with the wrong guy. I don’t know what to make of the guy saying he wouldn’t marry a woman who didn’t have a uni degree. I think that is odd. He was probably looking for an egalitarian marriage with you working and pooling expenses.
I am sorry to say it but i think that the real reason you aren’t married to him is because of your medical condition that caused you to gain weight. Even worse, 7 years is a long time to stay with a guy without marriage. A girl who’s looking to get married should not stay with a guy more than a few months. By the end of 3 to 6 months, you know if the guy is marriage worthy. End any relationship as soon as you know it is not going toward marriage. And you don’t need to stay with a guy for 2 years or more to figure out whether he’s a marriage candidate, or to get ready to get married.
At this point you should date with the specific purpose of finding a man who wants marriage. Do you live in the US? There are still men who want marriage, but they tend not to be as attractive as the most attractive men. If you and he are religious, consider covenant marriage.
Shes not in the U.S. so our advice wont work for her.
Carolina:
If you are in the Portuguese/western European SMP, that’s a place I know nothing about.
All I can advise you on is male nature. Men want beauty/looks (85% to 95%), youth (1 to 2 %) and pleasant, nice personality (3 to 10%). they aren’t generally attracted to things like how much money you make, your job, your salary, your personal possessions or your intelligence. They might want some of those things, but they don’t drive attraction.
I think you are all way too generous with Carolina.
She says she is twenty eight and that her boyfriend of seven years (from 20 to 27) promissed her that he would marry her when she had a Degree. She does not say that they were in any formal sense engaged to be married, so it is difficult to know exactly what that promise amounted to; further, although she is twenty-eight and has been at College since at least the age of Twenty, if not before, she still has no Degree – well I don’t know of any Degrees that take more than five years and most only take three. What is the betting that what he really said was that he did not want to put himself first and force her to abandon her career (for which she needs a degree) but that – the way things are – eventually given Carolina’s seeming inability to graduate and refusal, in the alternative, to get a job as she was, that he decided to cut his losses. Anyway, any non-marital relationship between young people that lasts seven years must be counted something of a rarity. He was not married and had a perfect right to do whatever he wanted (as Miss Manners always used to advise). The Victorian invention of the boyfriend (largely a benefit to women) also could work against them, as here, always assuming that Carolina’s version accurately reflects the facts.
Carolina also indicates that she and her boyfriend used to fight a lot, yet in the next breath says that he was reluctant to talk about marriage (like most guys) etc. Well, if he is reluctant to talk, there can hardly have been any fights unless perhaps she started them, so I deduce that Carolina is probably a button-pusher.
The truth, is, that Carolina, despite her protestations, showed no serious marital intent, and is now crying because she is not quite so slim and need to start all over again. Anyway, Carolina is only twenty-eight so she has plenty of time to marry and divorce and have a child or children as there are an excess of guys only too keen to man-up and marry, but who cannot find any woman who will even give them the time of day.
Carolina, sadly it sounds as if most Portuguese men as you describe them are feminists. My suspicion is that this cannot be as ubiquitous as you are describing. Here is my thought process on the degree. How much student debt do you have? How long and how much will you have to work to pay that debt off? How much will all of this interfere with you being a wife and a mother? How many years as a wife and a mother do you have left?
If you are attractive, submissive, are really enthusiastic about serving a husband I would want you to be at home so that I could have the best of you to myself. If you are not those things I might rather see you going to work so that I wouldn’t need to work so hard to support you. (From my perspective, the attractiveness may be the least important of the 3 I listed, but it’s still important to keep up, and to realize that you have a shelf life). I don’t know about Portugal and your marriage/dating dynamic, but I do know what I want as a man. I also know that I am not unique.
Are you interested in the right men?
I’ll also add that in the U.S., college campuses are a hotbed for feminist men and egalitarians. If you’re not interested in football players (or they aren’t interested in you) maybe it’s best to stay away from the pitch.
Greetings,
Dalrock, if you don’t mind I just wanted to share some links to this blog that some of you have probably already heard of, it’s called therulesrevisted.com.
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/08/femininity-authenticity-and_5.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2013/02/female-game-for-women-in-their-30s.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2012/12/female-game-for-girls-in-their-20s.html
http://www.therulesrevisited.com/2011/10/you-can-control-how-attractive-you-are.html
fascinating discussion. As a man who “paid the price” after marrying a Strong Independent Woman (TM), but now wants to be married again, I can tell you that women clearly do not want to be in a traditional marriage. After my divorce, I found Dalrock’s blog, and took the red pill. I clearly see the mistakes I made (tried to cover up the alpha, act more beta, like all the “churchian” advice was.)
So, after taking the red pill, and letting some of my natural alpha come out…i find that there are virtually no women around who want a traditional marriage. Yes, I want to be with a woman who is a Christian, who will submit (some great definitions of Biblical submission above), who will remain attractive (yes, that’s important…read “His Needs, Her Needs”); who is willing to cook, clean, and basically be pleasant and participate in the marriage.
So what would this “poor, tied-to-the-kitchen” woman get in return? Fidelity, stability (I’m very successful in my business, well into six figures), someone who will go to church with her, be willing to have kids with her, and who will provide for her the rest of her life…..
The downside? Most women won’t look twice if you are losing your hair, or getting gray, or are past 50. The rest simply doesn’t matter to them. They only want the money, the lifestyle, and the “good dad” if, and only if, you have great looks. (And, by the way, I’m not obese or ugly, just not Brad Pitt).
FlyGuy,
As a woman I can say that everything that apparentely you try to offer to your ex-wive and she didn’t value, was everything that I tried my ex-boyfriend to offer me, and what he said to me was that he sees no value in a woman that stay in home with kids and that if I thought that it that what’s gonna happen, that I was fully mistaken, because he wanted someone that (listen to this guys…)could earn AT LEAST AS MUCH AS HE DOES!!I can’t tell you the horror of listening to this to someone who was your fianceé for 7 years, who was supposedly to became your future husband..
I’m about to became a Pharmacist( The best profession for a woman in the USA in 2012), I finished one very difficult degree that could make me gain a good money if I choose to dedicate to it.
So I feel like I have nothing to prove, because if in my situation, if I was willing to dedicate my life to my future children and husband, is not because I don’t like to work or am unfit to do so, but because MY FUTURE FAMILY LIFE will be more important!!!
I’ve had a good career (physician)…but, let me tell you, the thing I see from watching older peers finish up their careers…is that it’s your family that is most likely to be there for you…
Went on a date last night with a nice, attractive lady. But, in discussion, the look on her face when I was talking about a SAHM was amazing….it was as if I had said something utterly unmentionable.
So, where does one find women who are interested in being SAHMs? I’m faithful in my church…and they’re not there. There are a lot of Femi-nazi’s, though….who are looking for a man to be a “help-meet” to them…
>The thing I fail to understand is why men would seek marriage. I understand why women want marriage, but what benefits does it confer on men?
The only reason that I’d ever get married for, is to have a claim on my children. I want to do their raising and training. I’ve worked hard at learning and preparing to raise kids, hopefully someday I’ll get to put that into practice with my own children.
Marriage comes with a lot of liabilities for a man in today’s society, and I see no reason to engage in it except for that specific purpose. If I want companionship, I’ve got plenty of women (married or not) who’re willing to be ‘friends’ and talk to me/provide companionship. I’m not that top 1-2% – so the current culture has trained me very well to do without sex. Frankly, the hand is far cheaper and gives a ton less bullshit, I never have to deal with PMS/emotional outbursts/depression/etc and I get to roll right over and go to sleep.
Which means that there’s a very limited subset of women that I’d consider. Basically, read above. However, the guys are telling women that they need to kick him to the curb if he’s not ready to commit in 3-6mons – and that is an issue. I want to see the woman perform longer than that. Many women can keep up an act for 3 months, and some can do it for 6 months. But most don’t have the stamina and fortitude to fake their true selves for over a year (and if they do, they also have the where-with-all to fake it for a decade or three needed to raise the kid(s)).
No single moms. Sorry ladies, the only ones who have my sympathy are the widows. The rest of you made bad choices. And if you’re choosing me… well, that’s an insult. Also, mothers should be putting their children first (most of them will admit this) – if so, I’d just be a second fiddle… and any children I had with her would be competing with her first-borns. And if she’s not putting her children first, would I want her to be the mother of mine? I want someone who will put our child first – which means single, never bred. And also means someone who’s not given up a baby, or lost custody. Frankly, I want my kid(s) to inherit from the mother’s family (if there’s any money going down – not a necessary condition).
I’m not as adamant as the ‘no women over 30’ guy. But not too far off. 32-33 is topping it out. 35 starts the big decline in fertility, and with a 1yr requirement… and that’s assuming you can knock her up in the first year. Sometimes it takes years of trying.
And I really don’t want to be the dickhead who tries with an older woman, for a couple of years – puts in time on the relationship, maybe get really heart-entangled – and then have to break the news to her that it’s divorce time because she’s infertile, and that I need to go try again with someone younger. Number one that’s not good for my heart/soul, and number two that’s really cruel to do to someone you love. But, I’m not going to sacrifice my goals just because she was out doing other things when she was younger instead of getting wifed/bred up.
It’s been kinda fun as I’ve grown older to see the exes come sniffing around. And the chix from HS who wouldn’t give you the time of day back then. Pretty much, I’ve washed my hands of them – I like to tell them ‘I’m busy, maybe some other time’ – and all those other bullshit excuses they used on me back in the day. I hope they spend just as much time pining over me as I spent pining over them. And I’m certainly not going to give them any pointers in person (unlike I’m doing right now on the net) because they didn’t bother to tell me what I needed to do to up my game back then. IRL, I’m gonna feed them all that feminist sh*t – and just tell them that we’ve got no chemistry/whatever if they get the balls to ask me out – instead of pointing out their real problems.
I had to figure sh*t out on my own, and they can too. Life sucks, and then you die.
If I could go back in time, I’d tell my younger self to drop the GFs. They were only causing me to spend my money – I worked hard at saving my money, and investing for the future – if I’d quit trying to find someone to marry back then I’d’ve been a millionaire by now, and been rolling in the pussy and/or wifed up. Occasional sex from the GF when she was in the mood back in the day wasn’t worth the drama, and the missed life opportunities now that I’ve matured and reflected on it.
Young men: Make money. Save it/invest it. Hire lawyers and protect your stash/investments from being co-opted by women (you can spend it on ’em if you want when you’re older). If you follow those rules, you will never lack for pussy in your old age. Forget the romantic bullshit. Yeah, there are people who stayed married for 60-70-80 years who’re dying now… but they grew up in a different time, in a different culture. Get real, and look around.
An aside, one of my buddies has a pets rule: no more than 2 different types of pets (no menageries) and no more than 2 of any one type of animal. And of course, the no women who say ‘I’m mommy to two dogs’, etc. Women are substituting animals for family… if one who is, avoid them – they’ve made their choice. A real woman who wants intimacy will be looking for (and more serious in) a man (or, f*ck, another woman if she swings that way) if she’s not spending her love, care and attention on a veritable zoo.
Advice for women in their 30s? Good luck. I hope you’ve got your shit together by now. Most I’ve met do not. Most women are huge clusterf*cks once they get out of their teens (if they make it that far without getting knocked up/etc) – most are making bad choices. Choices that have life-long consequences. Not that they’re grown up enough/mature at 18 however…
It’s like looking for a damn unicorn 🙂
Of course once technology catches up, and gets us artificial wombs – I’ll be all set. You can buy quality eggs, plenty of strumpets will bend over for the doctor for 5 figs – and you’ll never have to deal with ‘mom’.
Wow, I come here for marriage advice (even though I am not yet 30, I am 26), and all I see is dozens upon dozens of anti-women comments. Sometimes I just wish there was no such thing as gender. I just hate how so many people seem to hate women, or want them to be more subhuman just to make certain men feel superior. Why not just accept that it is another person with different views on life? I don’t care about a man with money, hair, even a job. All I want is another human being to love and spend my life with, and hopefully have kids. Apparently, that’s just asking for too much!
I don’t understand why I have to change so much of myself. Do chores for him, pretend to be pleasant when I am actually miserable, etc. But women can NEVER expect such things from men? “Oh, you are just being crazy, holding out for ‘Mr. Perfect.'” There is no “Mr. Perfect,” but certainly there has to be someone better than all the misogynists out here.
Meanwhile, somewhere in an alternate reality..
Wow, I come here for marriage advice (even though I am not yet old, but still young), and all I see is dozens upon dozens of anti-men comments. Sometimes I just wish there was no such thing as gender. I just hate how so many women seem to hate men, or want them to be more subhuman just to make certain women feel superior. Why not just accept that it is another person with different views on life? I don’t care about a woman with youth, a slim figure, even a job. All I want is another human being to love and spend my life with, and hopefully have kids. Apparently, that’s just asking for too much!
I don’t understand why I have to change so much of myself. Do chores for her, go to a shitty job the rest of my life, pretend to listen to her bat shit crazy ramblings, etc. But men can NEVER expect such things from women? “Oh, you are just being crazy, holding out for ‘Mrs. Perfect.’” There is no “Mrs. Perfect,” but certainly there has to be someone better than all the misandrists out there.
The names that men adopt in the Manosphere and the names that women assume are often very different. The originality of male names, names like Anonymous Reader, for example, impress me with their wit, but the women (with honourable exceptions) seem devoid of any originality or distinctiveness. Why is it that they resort to such impertinence as ‘Just Asking’ or the equally dim ‘Not Telling’ – which is what you might expect from a thirteen year old shy of communication with adults. Are Just Asking and Not Telling perchance related, I wonder? I think we should be told.
I know that look, FlyGuy. Got it yesterday from a girl I’ve been seeing for 3 months. I already live her “ideal” life yet she’d rather make 32k a year then raise kids, be team Ton’s rear detachment commander and enjoy my success.
It’s beyond puzzling… or would be if I paid attention to what women say vs what they do
Women have truly enslaved themselves by becoming careerists and deserting the role of SAHM. No woman understands that, however, until she holds her first precious little one- by then if she has a 6 figure salary it is all but too late. Society (and our mothers) told us to get a good job because in the end we couldn’t count on anyone but ourselves. But in the end if you become dependent on a second income for a home or a lifestyle- its very difficult to rid yourself of. Its not just the women who become enslaved to the “high” lifestyle. Its the couple together- and together they lose the wonderful family dynamic- and sometimes they lose the family altogether in a divorce. Women of my generation need to wise up. It will take men like you all (Dal and Deti and the rest). Within our current societal framework I believe it is too late. This comment is just all doom and gloom huh!?! Sad but true. May God help us.
Dear “Not Telling”:
You go, girlfriend! Tell those hateful misogynists! They don’t know you! You deserve nothing less than a 6ft5in bodybuilder who has at least 10M dollars in the bank, owns his own large corporation, and looks like Brad Pitt. He is out there, waiting to make you his princess. Keep looking and don’t ever settle for anything less!
Regards, Boxer
all I see is dozens upon dozens of anti-women comments. .. I just hate how so many people seem to hate women,
None of these guys started out hating women. They all started out loving women, and got very, very badly burned. Some were true, good hearted “niceguys, who got rejected in favor of badboys year after year, decade after decade. Others were cheated on. Still others lost children, homes, fortunes, and even freedom due to the savage anti-male injustices of divorce court.
And some are men who are now happily married but, in their past, fell into one or more of those categories, and are willing to share non-sugar-coated wisdom borne of experience, to other men in order to spare them…. and, to women who have ears to hear what’s really going on.
I think one clarification is important to point out to the occasional woman that stumbles in here and declares female victimhood, and the clarification is this: If someone points out a failing that they’ve repeatedly witnessed in the members of the fairer sex, it’s not anti-anything. It’s passing on one’s experiences. Yes, the opposite is just as true, but only if we’re talking about what a woman has actually witnessed men repeatedly doing, hamster-inspired justification for a woman’s failings don’t count (For example: “I didn’t do anything wrong, because he started it!”).
To Carolina: As someone else mentioned, your degree not being finished is going to be a concern in it’s own right. I took a while to finish junior college and then a five-year architecture degree, but I was done at 26. I picked something and pursued it. My concern when dating women at the younger end of my age range is that they haven’t picked something to pursue. Somewhere around 24-27 most women have decided what they want to make of their life. If they haven’t decided they’re a 50/50 time bomb, after months of affection and imaginations about the future, the man can find himself empty handed and out whatever time and money were spent, when the woman decides that what she really wants is to live as a man rather than as a woman. Such a woman might get married and even have children, but long term, it’s not going to provide for a quality or long lasting marriage. A man married to a masculinised women can only look forward to constant competition and constant contention. Sure the other half of the 50/50 means living happily ever after, or at least as happy as previous generations of married couples, but why go for 50/50 with a woman who hasn’t decided? There are 100% bets out there, and any man with sense or experience will know that’s the only bet to make.
You shouldn’t actually be asked to be an equal bread-winner unless of course you don’t want to contribute anything else of value in a relationship. I have friends with stay at home wifes, that can’t be bothered to cook a meal, don’t pick up after themselves, or do anything really. I also have friends that as wives work a day job, and come home and take care of the home too. What’s important to me, and I imagine most men, when it comes to whether a woman has or has had a job, is whether she has the ability to appreciate the work that their husbands are doing. A husband will work hard for his wife, but only if his wife doesn’t take his efforts for granted. Grasciousness and gratitude are all that husband should ask of his wife when it comes to work in my opinion.
Wow. I am a little shocked by the harsh comments about women. Are they honestly deserved? Maybe am just ignorant, but again, I’d rather keep it that way. It is not fair to lump men or women in a cluster and mark them with one big negative sign.
See, am a woman, Never been married, have no children and 34 soon to be 35. I finished high school at 17, got a job and finished my first degree in chemistry. Also helped put a roof over my grandmother and buy my mother a place to live. As hard as she worked, she could never afford her own place. I lost the job (developed seizures) after 4 years and moved to a new country for better opportunities.
In my new country, I started from scratch, worked menial jobs attending classes, paid tuition for 3 orphans I just could not ignore, sent my half brother through teaching college and are finally finishing my a healthcare graduate degree (doctor of pharmacy)
Have I been loved, yes. We planned to move to the new country but his paperwork did not go through. I tried my best to help him out and when everything failed, I believed it was okay because he ended up being the care-taker of his parents who died of cancer 5 years ago. It was a beautiful 6 year relationship and we remain friends.
Now I feel like am ready to love again. There was a lot to worry about I did not think it wise to rope in someone else. Which part of this is bitterness, slutting, or “reason am alone in my 30’s”
I am not an angel, but I know that am a good person. And I believe I will find the right man, even at 38 , and I don’t think his view of single women will be this negative. I don’t recall cheating on anyone or even not having a goal. Yes, there are women like this, but please, be kind to each other. none of them were born like that.
At times I believe that the the negative we see in men/women has been partly created by men/women. When we sit alone in our beautiful beds and are honest to ourselves, we find that we all all desire and want to belong, be loved and be trusted. scarred we may be, but that need is there, defines us as human beings. Have faith in love and r-ships at whatever age.
Good luck my friends.
I have to wonder if this drive-by posts are auto-generated. You know, we could probably write an auto-generation script for them. They’re pretty much all the same.
It always starts with some anti-male shaming. Then it’s all about “her needs” and how life was hard. Then it’s how we need to “all get along”.
I mock people that stupid in real life, to their face. I need to remember to do it more.
Shaming, in my experience, discredits whatever case is made afterwards. A good argument stands on it’s own, it doesn’t require a submissive audience. Shaming is an attempt to create a submissive audience, because the advocate doesn’t have faith in the argument otherwise being successful.
@They Call Me Tom:
I probably shouldn’t need to put it out to you, but you do get exactly where that leads you to, logically, right?
Yeah, once people realize that, it’s a matter of: Welcome to the Red Pill, yes, we know its painful to realize that most people are stupid.
Mulan: “Lookit me” solipsism + NAWALT!!!
I recently analysed the thread ‘Why men date younger women’. This thread is similar and has produced a similar response, and thus I have also analysed it:
It begins on 11th April 2011 with comments from the usual suspects, goes quiet and then resurrects itself with a comment from ciji32 in April 2012
Her comment is followed by comments form the following females:
KMS
jojo
LIA (2 comments in thumping Block Capitals)
JLS
Pillish Redhead
Jenn (six comments)
nesm-TR
Jojo (again – four comments)
Jean
Teebm
Christine (two comments)
T
Caroline (three comments)
Nottelling
anonymous
and now, Mulan
I exclude, at her own request, perspective – and her thirty one comments.
Once again Dalrock seems to have found the Achilles Heal.
Looking Glass: “I probably shouldn’t need to put it out to you, but you do get exactly where that leads you to, logically, right?”
That Mulan doesn’t have a credible argument to make? It did look a little cut and pasted, rather than an expression of an actual thought process.
Looking Glass: “Yeah, once people realize that, it’s a matter of: Welcome to the Red Pill, yes, we know its painful to realize that most people are stupid.”
You have to figure that if a bad method of argument persists, there’s a good chance that the bad method has been successful. For it to be successful, yes, it suggests a good number of people are, as you put it, stupid.
Perhaps I am just an Alpha cad, but – and this seems the best thread to set this out – thinking about myself, in my thirties I never formed any conscious decision to marry, as an objective, and always assumed (as was the case) that the women I dated had no intention of marrying either, but just to show how difficult it must be for women in their thirties to marry, I set out below (temporary daliances excluded) the ages of the main girlfriends I had – an average of one a year – for the ages 31, 32, 33, 34, 35.
The girls were at the time we started dating respectively:
26, 27, 23, 21, and 26.
I would not have even considered dating a woman aged over thirty, but as you see their average ages began to decline rather than increase.
Interesting Opus. Never mind the physical youth, young women are charming when stood next to not-as-young women, because for the most part they aren’t either jaded or damaged, the adjective I use for them is ‘sunny’.
I’ve dated a couple women over thirty in my early thirties, but truth is (despite the feminist myth) they didn’t have anything especially unique to offer intellectually or romantically compared to a younger woman, so I could see how, in the end, a man will probably date younger as the years go on.
To return to the title of this post, I think the best thing a woman in her early thirties can do to find herself a husband is to watch younger women and try to emulate their general warmth, friendliness, and energy. Just as much as physical beauty, it’s their state of being that makes them attractive.
Advice to a 30-something looking to marry? Quit! Unless…
She spent too long time despising men and now she is tired of the dating game because she has been beaten by younger girls and uninterested/uninteresting men. The best is over, babe!
Just in case you want to marry a bankrupt divorced dad, a lonely widower or one of the betas you used to ignore, try to look younger, to sound humble and delicate (I do not believe western women are really that – so keep pretending) and take the challenge of being a little more selfless than the average western women. And good luck! You are going to need a lot of it!
You are idiots. You think that women after age thirty are past their expiration date…while men have all the time in the world. It’s such a double standard! And it’s sexist bullshit. And its also not everyone’s reality. Women don’t have to settle!! Anyone can marry whoever they want at whatever age works for them. Woman’s value is not all tied up in her ability to be a reproductive vessel…The way you talk about women, you’d think that the lot of us are disposable–to be used and cast aside like a used condom wrapper! Men like you are the reason there is a 50% divorce rate. Women have changed…but men like you have not. We are not sex objects. We are human beings….with dreams and passions. Your world veiw makes women feel old at twenty one, and so many young girls buy into it! And I have news for you…My generation IS marrying later…and most men my age are not sexist pigs like you. You shame women for getting older, make us feel like we’re worthless if were over thirty and unmarried…if you had it your way every woman over thirty would go crawl under a rock. People as shallow as you don’t deserve to be in any relationship.
[D: Women over thirty can be very beautiful.]
“It’s such a double standard!”
No, the power that makes these loose young women think they are far above most men and can “settle later” is the very power they lose forever past a certain date. If they wanted marriage they would have taken it when younger. Then men they didn’t want then should have the sense to realize they aren’t worth it now.
That is to say, the double standard is in the minds of women. One standard of man to be used by when she is young, another standard of man to use when she is about to dry up.
My, My My what a clever and witty response.
It’s almost cute the way she thinks she has girl power and can do things, like marry whoever she wants
It still bears repeating that women over 30 can be very beautiful. They are, when they reserve their beauty and their best years for one man, and help him achieve his goals while he helps her.
But a woman over 30 can still meet a good man. She should:
1. Do all she can to improve her physical appearance.
2. Lower her standards.
3. Recalibrate attraction triggers by changing the venues where she meets and talks to men.
4. Shift attention from men in general to marriageable men.
5. Realize that the men she used to have sex with will not marry her.
@kj: If there’s any shaming involved, it isn’t for your getting older, but for your wasting your best opportunities. Everyone should regret wasting their opportunities, especially those who claim not to have any regrets, as seems to be the case with many thirty-something women when they talk about their twenty-somethings.
As Dalrock noted, women over thirty can be beautiful. I’d say over forty too. I’ve seen it, but truth is, I’ve only seen it on women who’ve avoided getting jaded who have, the warmth, friendliness and energy that most twenty-something women have without putting any effort into it that I described in my post. Bitter women start looking old before they even get to thirty, because bitterness affects one’s outsides just as much as it affects one’s insides.
That, I would say, was the on-line version of stamping ones feet.
…and I would add that a woman who marries in her twenties, will always look that way to her husband in some sense. Likewise with a woman who marries in her thirties and forties. Sure a wife could work really hard and eventually change her husband’s impression of her, but a wife that isn’t trying to be her husband’s enemy will always be seen in the same light as when he first met her.
Younger women are attractive, and will be more attractive longer than older women. That makes them more desirable as mates. If the kitten didn’t want me, I don’t want the cat.
Let me elucidate in case someone doesn’t understand that “double standard” is a almost always a projection:
When men reject women their own age for marriage in their 30s, how is this different than young women rejecting their marriage minded peers in their late teens and 20s? Young women believe they can do better than their male peers, and men in their 30s know they can do better than their female peers. The difference, is that a man is still capable of giving a woman many years of marriage and children and support in his 30s, whereas a woman is incapable of giving a man anything like the lionshare of her youth, beauty, and fertility.
Yes, these women are attracted to cads and older men and then complain about “double standards” when decent men their own age don’t want them. What they don’t want, is to have to do anything for someone else. They don’t want Christian marriage and family. They want to feel the maximum pleasure and pride when they are young, then they want a man-servant to give them a child and be financially responsible for the child, and to care for any bastards they’ve had on the way there.
Yeah, maybe it sounds like a broken record to point these things out. These girls say they don’t want to settle, but nothing is more apparent than that they don’t believe in love and marriage. That is to say, the idea of giving someone else the best of themselves, they don’t believe in that at all. They want to label old and used as fresh and new. And then blame men for a “double standard” for not wanting it!
Are we sure there isn’t an auto-generation script? I swear I’ve seen this exact screed two or three times before.
kj ‘s best line: “Anyone can marry whoever they want at whatever age works for them”. Ponder on these words oh ye mighty and despair! (to adapt Shelley)
@ JS “Yes, these women are attracted to cads and older men and then complain about “double standards” when decent men their own age don’t want them.”
Don’t most in the manosphere generally advise women to date older men?? Or by “older men” did you mean an age gap of 10+ years?
Women in their 30s think they should marry men practically the same age as themselves. However, when they have a chance to marry their peers, to give men their age their best years, they typically go with cads or older men. The point is not that there’s anything wrong with going with older men. The point is: many of these women are the very ones who went with older men as girls who now insist the men their age marry them! They are the ones with the double standard. They want men to commit to them when men are in some respects at their peak, and they are close to the wall. Does a woman desperate in her thirties wanting to have a wedding and a kid really believe in love and marriage? If they didn’t want to give themselves to a man when they were at their best, I don’t think they really believe in giving themselves in their 30s. It’s pretty clear they believe in a man-servant who pushes the stroller.
Oh now I get what you meant, thanks for clarifying. I think I can see why you and many of the men who comment on here are frustrated. However, I do know of many women in their 30’s and beyond who actually prefer older men now, but did not necessarily so when they were in their 20’s. I know that when I was in my early-mid 20’s, I never really had much interest in anyone more than a couple years older, but as I entered my late 20’s (29 now), an age difference of 10 plus years does not seem significant at all.
To answer your question. “Does a woman desperate in her thirties wanting to have a wedding and a kid really believe in love and marriage? If they didn’t want to give themselves to a man when they were at their best, I don’t think they really believe in giving themselves in their 30s. It’s pretty clear they believe in a man-servant who pushes the stroller.”
I think that absolutely there are women in their 30s who believe in love and marriage. They might have wanted to give themselves when they were “at their best,” but they may actually have legitimate reasons for why they did not. Not every single 30 something woman “rode the carousel” or put off marriage because she was career obsessed. There’s single women who were approached when they were younger by good, marriageable men but perhaps lacked the confidence needed to be with such a man. A lot of men on her seem to voice frustration about how women repeatedly tell them they’re great guys and attractive, etc, yet still are (or have been) rejected by women they’re interested in. I’ve know of young attractive women who’ve been approached by men they actually like and are attracted to, but have an internal dialogue that goes kind of something like, “what does he see in me?” or “what if he leaves me for a prettier girl”? Etc, etc.So, not all women are delusional about who they think they’re capable of attracting. Believe it or not, some just do NOT feel WORTHY of some of the men they’re approached by. Some don’t learn to possess this self-confidence and worthiness until they’re in their late 20s-early 30s, but by then a lot of these women are just dismissed as being “worthless” “dried-up” or have “hit the wall.”
That is an interesting but I regret to say, at least to me, unpersuasive post by perspective. Of course no woman necessarily fits, exactly, the model propounded here in the Androsphere, and thus it may be that there are women in their thirties keen to marry, and who have not been riding the Carousel in their twenties; and it may also be the case that there are women so unsure of themselves that they cannot see ‘what he sees in me’ or wonder whether he will leave ‘for a prettier girl’ – I have met women like that, and their chronic insecurity is such that they are impossible to date – indeed I was temporarily romantically linked to one such who shortly thereafter relaunched herself as a singer (plus guitar) and managed to have an article and posed-photo thereof on page 7 of The Daily Mirror (they love a pretty young face and trim figure!) – but I am afraid the career was stillborn, doubtless her insecurity was not a help. If a woman is in her mid-thrities and is not a former Carousel rider, then one has to suppose that she has been celibate for twenty years or so, yet that seems unlikely; equally the chronically insecure tend to have ‘a screw loose’, like my erstwhile would-be lover, and it is unlikely to become tightened sufficiently by her mid-thirties. Single women in their mid-thirties tend to fall into one of two categories;either the carousel-rider or the weird and bad-tempered, but I fear that the normal but virginal are as rare as the Arabian Phoenix (a bird much spoken of but little seen). They should also not be confused with serial Monogamists.
@Perspective:
In my view, a woman does not need to ratchet up her confidence or her self esteem to be with a high value man. What she needs to do is (1) do all she can to improve her physical appearance; then (2) find men of good character that she can be attracted to and is comfortable submitting to. The “good character” part is key.
If she wants to be “worthy”, she needs to start by being pretty and nice and pleasant to be around. Then she needs to refuse to sleep with players and cads.
She doesn’t need to be confident. She needs to be pretty, nice, and discerning.
Opus: “…and it may also be the case that there are women so unsure of themselves that they cannot see ‘what he sees in me’ or wonder whether he will leave ‘for a prettier girl’ – I have met women like that, and their chronic insecurity is such that they are impossible to date – indeed I was temporarily romantically linked to one such”
I had that experience, once. One of the little red pill moments in my life. She was a decent-enough looking woman, and had a charming enough personality, that she probably would’ve been enough to make me happy. But because she wasn’t a 9 or a 10, she could not believe herself to be loveable, and soon it wasn’t just that she didn’t believe she was loved, but that there must be more sinister motivations involved with anyone who ‘pretended’ to love her. Plain janes can be just as unpleasant as the highest maintenance beauty queen in the end.
Two things I’d probably suggest to women over 30 looking to marry is that they make sure there is attraction from the outset, and that they work at the relationship between the two of them.
I’ve talked in passing with a couple of women in their mid 40s, both of whom I used to know from college. I dated one of them for a year back in college.
One of them spent her 20s riding the carousel. She met her husband through online dating at 29 and married him at 32. She’s now 42. They have no children. She is hopelessly unattracted to him because of his uber-beta tendencies, refusal to lead, and chronic depression. She is dissatisfied and unhappy in her marriage. Yet she’s never going to divorce her husband because deep down she knows she has no other options.
The other met her husband when she was 31 and in graduate school. He is 7 years her senior. They have two young school age sons. She is getting an “I’m not haaapy” divorce for the usual reasons: they “don’t have anything in common anymore” and ILYBINILWY.
Failure to marry for love and attraction, and neglect of the relationship, can be misery inducing at best, and fatal to the marriage at worst.
Dalrock- Have you ever thought of writing in regards to opposite experience that men in their early and later twenties sometimes run into? Maybe something like ‘Advice to a twenty-something, unemployed, non-trust fund man looking to marry’? Would even one ‘feminist’ show up and bemoan the suggestion that a man without sufficient ability to be able to provide for a family should still be loved and married anyways?
TCMT:
Twenty-something, unemployed non-trust fund men should go to:
dannyfrom504.wordpress.com
Feminist think no man should be loved. Which does reflect the reality that woman do not love
I found this article, and most of the comments extremely offensive … people are not objects, or money, or things.
Carolina, I would say just put yourself in different situations, and be open to meeting new guys. Maybe make the first move. Be yourself, try to be confident, follow your heart, don’t be weird, treat him like a PERSON and it will just happen.
People are objects and things… and they are other things as well. To say that people aren’t objects or things is to say they don’t exist… which is more offensive than anything said in these comments I think.
I like to say: If your spouse was horribly, permanently maimed or had sudden-onset nasty mental illness the day after marriage, would you stick by him/her? If not, think real hard about tying the knot.
Don’t kid yourself: if you aren’t ready to handle these type of events, then you aren’t really devoted to your partner, no matter nice and warm and cuddly it feels to fantasize that you are, You are devoted to what YOU want, what YOU hope to get out of your partner. You are not devoted to your partner.
This applies also to the aging process. One of you may well — probably will — go down the tubes quicker and more dramatically than the other. Are you willing to be the one to settle for an inferior match for many, many years? If not, don’t get married.
The takeaway from all of this is that when evaluating a potential partner, look for bedrock steadfastness and a hard-wired, DNA-deep aversion to abandoning ship. Look at the “culture” (i.e., the behaviors) of the extended family. Do they have a matter-of-fact beyond-question ethic of sticking together for keeps? I’ve seen families like that. One of the members cheated on his spouse, and the extended family performed an intervention and got the couple back together. They were simply not going to stand for that sneaky infidelity nonsense. If the couple had problems, the family’s attitude was to solve them — or, if absolutely unavoidable. get a proper divorce in the clear light of day. If you do not see that level of ingrained, inculcated, instilled inclination to stick it out and handle marriage honorably – think VERY hard about tying the knot with a prospective partner.;
You are looking for someone who would no more stray from you than they would hit you in the face with a 2×4 while you are napping. You want someone who views cheating as an unthinkable, grave act of domestic violence, not as a lifestyle option.
If your prospective partner is overly obsessing about whether you are a good fit, be very careful. You risk being out the door the minute things go off-key for any length of time. Marriage is at least as much about making the best of adversity and emerging dissimilarities as it is about having a good fit. Do not kid yourself.
I find women’s self entitlement, legalised misandry and divorce rape extremely offensive … men are people, not objects, or things to be consumed at will by the feminine imperative, financially milked and tossed aside.
whowanderarelost says:
April 7, 2013 at 6:14 am
“I found this article, and most of the comments extremely offensive”
FYI, that is not a rebuttal. It’s not even important.
Truth is often inconvenient, even unpleasant. But, most importantly, it is commonly USEFUL (when accepted and acted upon).
Dating advice from a woman:
“treat him like a PERSON…”
Instead of treating him a utility, a walking wallet, a means to an end for the contemporary feminist womans wedding fantasy?
Priceless.
@Perspective
“I think that absolutely there are women in their 30s who believe in love and marriage. They might have wanted to give themselves when they were “at their best,” but they may actually have legitimate reasons for why they did not. Not every single 30 something woman “rode the carousel” or put off marriage because she was career obsessed. There’s single women who were approached when they were younger by good, marriageable men but perhaps lacked the confidence needed to be with such a man. A lot of men on her seem to voice frustration about how women repeatedly tell them they’re great guys and attractive, etc, yet still are (or have been) rejected by women they’re interested in. I’ve know of young attractive women who’ve been approached by men they actually like and are attracted to, but have an internal dialogue that goes kind of something like, “what does he see in me?” or “what if he leaves me for a prettier girl”? Etc, etc.So, not all women are delusional about who they think they’re capable of attracting. Believe it or not, some just do NOT feel WORTHY of some of the men they’re approached by. Some don’t learn to possess this self-confidence and worthiness until they’re in their late 20s-early 30s, but by then a lot of these women are just dismissed as being “worthless” “dried-up” or have “hit the wall.””
Why do you think “this self-confidence and worthiness” is attractive to guys?
What are some of these “legitimate reasons”?
I like to mock others by “putting quotes” on their words. It’s fun. LOL.
“Be yourself, try to be confident”
The statement of lazy women …
Who Cant be bothered to figure out what men want .. women are so freaking arrogant, they think by just being women they can bag any man … be yourself, dont give a crap about the man
Women are so arrogant & feminist, they think being themselves is the best they can give a man …
Try to be confident? Women never cease to give other women a pussy pass … women dont know how to be confident?
In an age of Oprah empowerment & feminist affirmative bullshit & their vaginocracy …
The problem with women is they have TOO much confidence
Seriously you women still live in the 50’s … we live in an age of masculinised women & hyper-sexuality
An age of women who’ve passed the stages of arrogance & confidence into self delusions of worshipping their vagina’s …
Seriously IF you want a man, honour them, & find out what sort of woman men want …
BE that woman …
Your delusions of arrogance & the selfishness of being yourself, will keep you barren & childless …
“unemployed, non-trust fund man looking to marry’? ”
”
The only advice these guys need is find a job … lol
Anyman can have a trust fund … its easy …
Exp-pat & shack up with as many women as you can, have 10 or 20 kids … let the kids pay for your retirement … ta da … instant trust fund … good times!!
The mexicans & all over asia, do it all the time …
IF your still unemployed … find yourself a shotgun … thats how long the marriage’ll last … lol
Unemployed Walking wallets arent worthy of the skank like, slutty princess of today …
“‘what he sees in me’ or wonder whether he will leave ‘for a prettier girl’ ”
Wrong … what you guys think you see as insecurity …
Is in fact plausible deniability, most women get so used to having their bitch shields up at warp factor 10, thats all they know
Women get so used to playing hard to get, & using plausible deniability to convince themselves of their pure, virginal & chaste for that special alpha cock … they spend life times playing the damsel in distress …
Plausible deniability is the bread & butter of women game …
“Your delusions of arrogance & the selfishness of being yourself, will keep you barren & childless …”
Pure gold. This is exactly the kind of wisdom older women used to offer to the younger generations. Too bad that system is mostly dead now.
“I hope my thoughts on this are at least somewhat helpful. The last thing I will share is even though it is more difficult in your 30s it doesn’t mean it isn’t possible. My wife and I met a couple on a cruise a few years back who were newlyweds. The wife was in her early to mid 30s and the husband was in his mid 20s.”
Marrying older women is on the upswing. One of my closest buddies married a terrific single mom and they also had a child together when he was late 20s and she mid 30s. He bonded very closely with her young son and provides a great role model and father figure for him. Her daughter is a teenager so that dynamic is a bit different but they also get along well. They also have a 1 year old baby together and everyone;s life revolves around that baby.
When we were in our mid 20s he once remarked that women our age were not mature enough to marry and have kids with. One of the things that attracted him to his now wife was her demonstrable example of mother worthiness. He saw how she was with her kids and concluded she was a great mom, and she is. It didn’t hurt that she earns more than he does as well, though he never mentioned that.
” Also, a number of commenters to this site have mentioned finding and marrying the love of their lives in their 30s or later.”
In my circles people generally don’t marry until at least 30.
“This of course is also borne out in the census stats. A significant number of women marry in their 30s and (to a lesser degree) in their 40s and beyond.”
Yep, most of my female peers are marrying in early 30s. And these are not hardcore careerist women either.
“When we were in our mid 20s he once remarked that women our age were not mature enough to marry and have kids with. One of the things that attracted him to his now wife was her demonstrable example of mother worthiness. He saw how she was with her kids and concluded she was a great mom, and she is. It didn’t hurt that she earns more than he does as well, though he never mentioned that…”
Funny.
Here we see the only possible reason to ever consider marrying an older, single mommie. To divorce her later, claim the child of the union and child support payments off her, since shes working and earning more.
Still a high risk strategy, though.
No doubt about it; what man would not want a woman older than himself and with a failed marriage and or illegitimate children behind her, and for him to dove right into the role of surrogate Father and Provider. Consider the advantages: the woman is not silly and flighty but serious about combining Motherhood with her necessary Career. I now realise where I have been going wrong for so long, rejecting such woman as Pump and Dump playthings when all along they were preferred candidates for marriage. Yes; a man who has options ought always to reject younger women as inexperienced and in favour of the more mature. I’ll make a note of this somewhere at the back of last year’s diary.
A story about “good church girls” (gcgs).
Some years ago, the redoubtable boundless website published a work by danielle crittenden called the cost of delaying marriage.
Gcgs protested bitterly. They had worked long and hard to become childless spinsters. How dare someone suggest they missed out! Here are their protests about being single in the late twenties and thirties:
1. Jesus is enough
2. Its not my fault
3. Singles have more fun
4. Babies are too much work
5. Men are jerks
To its credit, boundless writers endorsed early marriage, but failed badly in omitting the obvious: women themselves are responsible through their hypergamic, status seeking, marriage avoiding behaviours in their twenties.
The christian young man in his twenties is blamed for the woman as gatekeeper model where they reject him, yet he is then told to man up and marry the sluts in his thirties, when he is now good enough for them.(until the woman divorces him ‘cos she’s unhaaappy)…
The takeaway for gcgs is this: women themselves are largely to blame for prolonged singleness, after a decade or more of having fun and finding themselves. But boundless will never admit this. To do so would damage the feminine imperative, where men must lead, and woman can do whatever they want.
Here is the original article and the boundless response to the many criticisms from gcgs:
http://www.boundless.org/relationships/2005/the-cost-of-delaying-marriage
http://www.boundless.org/relationships/2005/defending-the-cost-of-delaying-marriage
“Here we see the only possible reason to ever consider marrying an older, single mommie. To divorce her later, claim the child of the union and child support payments off her, since shes working and earning more.”
That’s not why he married her. He also works as a mechanic, handy man, massage therapist and martial arts teacher. She earns more but is not a mainstream careerist type so she doesn’t make a lot of money either in her small privately owned business. And now that she has an infant she’s had to scale even further back on her small pool of clientele.
“No doubt about it; what man would not want a woman older than himself and with a failed marriage and or illegitimate children behind her”
No illegitmate children. The divorce was not her fault. I know her ex-husband.
She’s a good, family oriented woman and that’s why my buddy married her. They are very happy and in love.
” I now realise where I have been going wrong for so long, rejecting such woman as Pump and Dump playthings when all along they were preferred candidates for marriage.”
I would suggest for your own mental, physical and spiritual well being that you do not pump and dump humans and use them as mere “things”.
“Yes; a man who has options ought always to reject younger women as inexperienced and in favour of the more mature. I’ll make a note of this somewhere at the back of last year’s diary.”
It has nothing to do with age really, but with character, values, maturity and compatibility. I’m sure there are mid-20s women of solid character, values and maturity, but my buddy was not meeting compatible ones who shared his specific values at the time. He found all of that in his now wife and that is why he married her.
So not all divorcees are like that. Got it.
“So not all divorcees are like that.”
Like what?
I am grateful to Sexual Marxist for the shaming; for yes I have to confess I do indeed see women as merely despositories for sperm (and the more Rapey it feels the better, obviously – as I am not the possesive type). I am grateful that anyone cares as Sexual Marxist obviously does about both my spiritual (whatever that is) and Physical well-being. Sexual Marxist clearly sees that I too have my needs and desires and that being confident in my sexuality such that I own my body and no one has the right to tell me how I should live my life. It is because I value women higher than even Manboobs Futrelle that I never even consider that it would be appropraite to give a woman my love and man up (for that would be unfair on all the other women) and marry a woman old enough to be my mother. It is because I do indeed care for women that I do not think it appropriate for someone such as myself to consider any form of relationship with a woman but merely attend to the satisfying of their needs.
A lot of older women have a lot to give and thus it is only fair that I allow all those younger and braver than me to risk their shirt. I will attend to the business of consoling the under thirties for their loss.
By the way is the buddy that Sexual Marxist refers to a Fuck Buddy? I think we should be told.
Jesus flippin’ Christ Opus. I shared an anecdote about my buddy’s personal experience. No need to extrapolate that into a universal diktat for man. Marry whoever the hell you want, and who will have you.
Dear An Observer:
Here we see the only possible reason to ever consider marrying an older, single mommie. To divorce her later, claim the child of the union and child support payments off her, since shes working and earning more.
Where I live, a man getting a judge to see him as the primary caregiver is about as common as a man getting struck by lightning. What is more likely is going to court and being paraded around as a total loser who doesn’t make enough money, and then having some dyke bitch judge impute “the income this loser should be earning” as a basis for the generous child support and maintenance payments. Such a man often gets a dressing down in court for his parasitism and his inability to be the breadwinner, but almost never gets to keep his kids.
It’s a rigged game, at least where I live.
Regards, Boxer
” The divorce was not her fault. I know her ex-husband… ”
So the virtuous woman of solid characer was deceived, tricked into marrying a man of dubious repute, a wife beater and substance abuser. She’s a victim of circumstance, and her ex somehow escaped the filter of her intuition.
” It’s a rigged game, at least where I live.”
Another way of describing high risk.
Although i’m sure there are plenty of preachers that would disagree, and encourage men to man up.
“So the virtuous woman of solid characer was deceived, tricked into marrying a man of dubious repute, a wife beater and substance abuser.”
Not at all. She married young. When she was pregnant with their second child she had found out that he was cheating on her. There were no signs of cheating before this and she had not even suspected him.
“She’s a victim of circumstance”
You could say that.
“and her ex somehow escaped the filter of her intuition.”
Nothing to do with intuition. He had no prior history of cheating that she knew of.
Satisfied now?
Based on the details supplied, no.
Extramarital sex is a symptom of other issues. None of which are explained here.
I don’t know more details than that. I know the ex-husband but he hasn’t opened up to me about the situation saying, “I had a good woman and I screwed up”. His ex-wife is now happily remarried with a third child while he is dating crazy with a capital C.
“Extramarital sex is a symptom of other issues.”
Not always. Sometimes men just want variety. Remember, she was heavily pregnant when he cheated.
So, all we really know is that he got some action outside the marriage bed.
Its disappointing to see any marriage fail. But there are women out there that wait years, wishing hubs would cheat, so they can divorce him with a clear conscience.
https://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/03/11/why-so-many-wives-wish-their-husbands-would-cheat/
Sexual Marxist… She who must be obeyed. Given the freedom to marry, who I want, or whoever will have me (ouch!) I think I’ll pass.
Look people, I shared an anecdote. It was not intended for universal application. One man cheated on his wife for whatever reason while she was pregnant with his second child. Several years later she remarried and has a new baby and the ex-husband upon seeing how happy and settled they are, expressed open regret to me that he cheated and deceived what he called a “good woman”.
It happens. I don’t know how often and I don’t care. This was just my one teeny tiny itsy bitsy anecdote. Get over it.
@Deti
“In my view, a woman does not need to ratchet up her confidence or her self esteem to be with a high value man. What she needs to do is (1) do all she can to improve her physical appearance; then (2) find men of good character that she can be attracted to and is comfortable submitting to. The “good character” part is key.
If she wants to be “worthy”, she needs to start by being pretty and nice and pleasant to be around. Then she needs to refuse to sleep with players and cads.
She doesn’t need to be confident. She needs to be pretty, nice, and discerning.”
Thanks for your response deti. Thank you as well to you and everyone else who has replied (whether directly or indirectly) to my previous posts. My apologies for not always responding back to you or anyone else, but I always did appreciate the detailed and thoughtful replies. While I know that a lot of men only require a woman to be pretty, nice, and respectable to be considered worthy, a lot of women, (even those who do possess these qualities) are still not convinced of their worth and desirability. And self-esteem issues can affect even “normal” women-not just nuts. Most people (including women) want to feel like they have something to offer besides being their looks being pleasant. And if they feel they’re not good enough, it can be difficult to open up to another person and sustain a relationship.
@FF
“Why do you think “this self-confidence and worthiness” is attractive to guys?”
“What are some of these “legitimate reasons”?
“I like to mock others by “putting quotes” on their words. It’s fun. LOL.”
I would answer your questions-if you’re actually interested in hearing my answers and not just because you “like to mock others by “putting quotes” on their words. It’s fun. LOL.” Sorry, but I fail to see what exactly is so mock-worthy about what I wrote.
“Most people (including women) want to feel like they have something to offer besides being their looks being pleasant. And if they feel they’re not good enough, it can be difficult to open up to another person and sustain a relationship.”
Find something, like a hobby or a skill, that you enjoy and that you have the potential to master. It could even be a new language that you teach yourself. Improving or expanding your skill set improves confidence. For religious people memorizing their entire scripture is a useful skill set. Many cultures have that tradition and even give titles to people who do that.
Improving appearance also improves confidence
@Opus
“If a woman is in her mid-thrities and is not a former Carousel rider, then one has to suppose that she has been celibate for twenty years or so, yet that seems unlikely; equally the chronically insecure tend to have ‘a screw loose’, like my erstwhile would-be lover, and it is unlikely to become tightened sufficiently by her mid-thirties. Single women in their mid-thirties tend to fall into one of two categories;either the carousel-rider or the weird and bad-tempered, but I fear that the normal but virginal are as rare as the Arabian Phoenix (a bird much spoken of but little seen). They should also not be confused with serial Monogamists.”
I know this reply is kind of late, but yes, the reasons you listed could be why some women are still single in their mid-30s, but for younger insecure women, they may have reasons for that insecurity because of things that occurred in their life which they had no control over of. I think it’s a normal human reaction to struggle with low self esteem and lack of confidence as a result of negative past experiences which may cause some arrested social development that take can take a while to overcome. However, many women do get there. Everyone goes through difficulties in life-some more than others, but that doesn’t mean they’re crazy or damage goods.
“I think it’s a normal human reaction to struggle with low self esteem and lack of confidence as a result of negative past experiences which may cause some arrested social development that take can take a while to overcome.”
Very true. And everyone is insecure about something. Its just a matter of degree, really.
@MP
“Wrong … what you guys think you see as insecurity …
Is in fact plausible deniability, most women get so used to having their bitch shields up at warp factor 10, thats all they know
Women get so used to playing hard to get, & using plausible deniability to convince themselves of their pure, virginal & chaste for that special alpha cock … they spend life times playing the damsel in distress …
Plausible deniability is the bread & butter of women game …”
It may seem hard to believe to some that there are women who are insecure and lack confidence, but yes, they do exist and indeed wonder what some guys “see in them” and worry about possibly being left for a “prettier girl.” The over confidence, arrogance and entitlement you describe are certainly present in some women, however, these traits and insecurity and lack of confidence are not necessarily mutual exclusive.
@SM
“Find something, like a hobby or a skill, that you enjoy and that you have the potential to master. It could even be a new language that you teach yourself. Improving or expanding your skill set improves confidence. For religious people memorizing their entire scripture is a useful skill set. Many cultures have that tradition and even give titles to people who do that.
Improving appearance also improves confidence”
Good advice
@SM
“Very true. And everyone is insecure about something. Its just a matter of degree, really.”
Agreed.
” The over confidence, arrogance and entitlement you describe are certainly present in some women, however, these traits and insecurity and lack of confidence are not necessarily mutual exclusive.”
Not only are they not mutually exclusive, one will often mask the other. I mean just look at “game” or PUA (pick up artist) techniques, one of which is “irrational confidence”. You read right – “irrational”. And this is an actual core principle of “game”. The theory is that through projecting confidence without having to rationalize it, such as in actually having something to be confident about, like say, oh an accomplishment or two, that this projection “displays higher value” to the females around you and will actually cause them to want to “qualify” themselves to you, or rationalize their accomplishments or characteristics.
And it really IS “irrational” confidence because these guys often have nothing to truly be confident about and they are often the most insecure, self-loathing creatures a gal could meet. But that projection of confidence, for no reason, is supposed to mask their inner world of self-doubt and make women attracted to them.
So I ask, is this yet another game/pua technique that models itself after the behavior of women?
@Perspective
It is certainly never too late to respond to my musings, and indeed I am glad that you did, for it gives me the chance to expand my disappointing views -fort although it is possible that women may improve, as you suggest, I think that unlikely. It is certainly not my observation, as peoples characteristics – good and bad – only seem to become more pronounced with age. Even if they do improve, a man has to ask himself: Is it really worth taking the chance? Putting it the other way round: Would a woman think it worth taking a chance with a man who spent his youth high on dope or stupified with alcohol or unemployed and drifting? I rather doubt it, and for the same reason. Still, one can only cut ones coat according to the cloth available, and usually there is only one piece of cloth; by which I mean that if a man is desirous of marriage, he will find that there is probably only one vaguely suitable woman available, at any given time. The older males become, the lower their slavery to Testosterone, such that below a certain level of female suitability, the man will pass on Matrimony altogether. It is this which is fuelling the marriage strike: a cursory view of OKCupid, is always salutory. Indeed I was looking at it only a day or two ago, and came across some very sad examples of woman-hood: for example; a 43 year old women – unemployed, because she has just completed her Masters degree in Arabic (surely pointless Masters degress are go-faster stripes for women); and then there was another, aged 41 in similar circumstances who any Friday night will be found ‘socialising with friends or chilling out’ – some enticement to commit ones entire life to a female I should say (not)!
Of course one must take every case on its merits, and although the idea of marrying for reasons other than love are anathema to the young, marriages of convenience seem to be the more common with those into their thirties – a compromise, and perhaps a good one, but hardly what they might have dreamed of when teenagers.
@ Perspective:
“While I know that a lot of men only require a woman to be pretty, nice, and respectable to be considered worthy, a lot of women, (even those who do possess these qualities) are still not convinced of their worth and desirability. And self-esteem issues can affect even “normal” women-not just nuts. Most people (including women) want to feel like they have something to offer besides being their looks being pleasant. And if they feel they’re not good enough, it can be difficult to open up to another person and sustain a relationship.”
Bringing it back around to the OP, I was talking about a place for over 30 women to start if they are looking for a husband. Be nice, be pretty, be available. That’s half the battle. Most women I’m seeing around me aren’t any of these or can do only one halfway well.
But I suspect what’s really going on many times is that her standards are still sky high as they were when she was 22 and the world was her sexual oyster. A 30 year old woman is not going to pull the hot men she did when she was 22. She has to lower her standards.
A lot of so-called “self-esteem” issues are derived from, I think, the fact that the hot alpha studs don’t pay attention to her anymore and don’t want to have sex with her anymore and aren’t falling all over themselves because of her anymore.
“A lot of so-called “self-esteem” issues are derived from, I think, the fact that the hot alpha studs don’t pay attention to her anymore and don’t want to have sex with her anymore and aren’t falling all over themselves because of her anymore.”
This applies to a lot of women across all ages. The young average women will have self esteem issues due to they can’t alphas to commit to them. They are very attractive as most young normal weight women are but they aren’t attractive enough.
So when people try to console them and tell them they are pretty. They aren’t lying. They simply don’t see the clear picture. They are good looking but they might as well be an ugly shrew because if it’s not enough for alpha commitment, then it’s worthless. That’s where you see the body image issues.
With guys, people will criticize if he constantly works out and tries really hard to be attractive in other superficial ways. They will point out that a lot guys aren’t studs and they shouldn’t worry about it. However, these guys know at some level, that they have to break into the top 20 percent to even be in the game.
@deti
i think you made a lot of great statements; however, there is something that i just can’t get my head around with this chain… it seems like it started out with everyone talking about how the laws, customs, norms, etc. are stacked against men in our society and for that reason they should opt out of the marriage system.
at some point the whole conversation seemed to devolve into a diatribe about sexy alpha males and how detestable it is for young women of prime marrying age to try to jump on that bandwagon. the problem here is that the term “alpha male” seems to be centered around physical condition. Yes, I did see discussion of $500 dinners, etc., but the reality is that 75% (guess) of the time you are throwing around $500 to eat before getting in your $200,000 car and going back to your $4,000,000 pad, your abs are gone, you work or have worked 80 hours a week for longer than anyone can remember and you are just in a place of system dominance.
i am not saying it is going to work out for women who chase these rainbows, like most entrepreneurial ventures that captivate the minds of our most ambitious Americans, but why the hell wouldn’t a woman use her best years to try to marry a rich good looking guy? as your posts state, it is clear that there will never be a shortage of back up options down the road… and even if she happens to age beyond her ability to settle down with a “prime beta male” that really is not an affront to the beta male, because he is not on a clock and will only become wiser and wealthier with age and “settle up.”
i guess it is the non-system-based anger that i think i detect and i don’t really understand. you clearly have it figured out and you are clearly becoming better with age. you know who gets destroyed and winds up picking up the pieces for most of their adult lives? alpha males. the young good looking ones get owned because they are most likely settle down with the prom queen and then later on get comparatively smashed by the over achiever formerly beta males when the prom queen is over abs and wants to have a benz.
and then it flips from a good job with a good company to the C student that had amazing social skills, learned professional skills, and then had the willingness to let it all ride on an idea and in that proces became an unstoppable entrepreneurial force…
my guess is that that works for people less than .01% of the time… however, when it does i think these people have very little competition. so, i think it relevant to break down alpha by life stage. much easier to be contemptuous of an idiot that can throw a football than a guy that can build a novel semiconductor and take it to market.
on another note, given the endless descriptions of the systemic failure of contemporary marriage to meet the needs of the male primarily predicated on the shortcomings of the contemporary female and that which she values, would it not stand to reason that the beta male has dodged a bullet?
alpha and beta males will never not be desirous of attractive females and women will never not be desirous of the alpha males that match their life stage (which as time goes on tends to be former beta males).
@Opus
“It is certainly never too late to respond to my musings, and indeed I am glad that you did, for it gives me the chance to expand my disappointing views -fort although it is possible that women may improve, as you suggest, I think that unlikely. It is certainly not my observation, as peoples characteristics – good and bad – only seem to become more pronounced with age.”
Yes, I’ve heard and observe the tendency for people to become more set in their ways as they age, but I’ve also seen the opposite, where some are able to mature and overcome a lot of the foolishness that afflicted them when they were younger, more naive and less experienced (and I mean life experience, not sexual)
“Even if they do improve, a man has to ask himself: Is it really worth taking the chance? Putting it the other way round: Would a woman think it worth taking a chance with a man who spent his youth high on dope or stupified with alcohol or unemployed and drifting?”
Thanks for the reply. I suppose it would be entirely up to the man if he thinks it’s worth taking the chance. But if he’s able to really get to know and observe the woman in question and she’s proven that she has changed (personality flaws and insecurities) then I don’t see why he wouldn’t. However, If a man or woman spent their youth drug/alcohol addicted I would not fault someone for not wanting to take a chance on them if they have struggled with addictions for a couple different reasons. First, even if one has been sober or clean for years, it’s possible they could for them to become addicted again, Second, while I’m no expert on the subject, I have read that addiction or rather addictive personality can be passed on to offspring, so there could be a future risk to not only the stability of their marriage, but also the health and well being of their children. As for the unemployment and drifting part, I think that would depend on the reasons as to why they were and also for how long. If someone spent their youth unsure about what they wanted,(and I guess that could be called “drifting”) but were still able to hold down a job and pay their bills before finally figuring out their career in their late 20s or early 30s and then sticking to it, then I guess I don’t really why they would be ruled out potential marriage.
@Deti and Furious Ferrett
I suppose there could be women who feel bad about themselves because the type of men they’re most attracted to don’t seem to give them the time of day. However, a lot of the women I know struggle with insecurity for other reasons. While I think that positive attention from the opposite sex; especially those who they’re most attracted to, can provide a boost in confidence, I don’t necessarily think the absence of that validation is enough to cause low self-esteem and lack of confidence.
@SM
“Not only are they not mutually exclusive, one will often mask the other. I mean just look at “game” or PUA (pick up artist) techniques, one of which is “irrational confidence”. You read right – “irrational”. And this is an actual core principle of “game”. The theory is that through projecting confidence without having to rationalize it, such as in actually having something to be confident about, like say, oh an accomplishment or two, that this projection “displays higher value” to the females around you and will actually cause them to want to “qualify” themselves to you, or rationalize their accomplishments or characteristics.”
True. The neg seems to be a PUA (pick up artist) technique that’s advocated as “game.” And maybe some women go for that kind of thing (which is pretty sad and unfortunate) but I’ve never found this type of behavior appealing at all.
The only advice I can offer for the hypothetical 30+ single woman is two things: pleasantness and contentment.
The pleasantness refers to your looks and personality, by looks I don’t expect you to be a red-hot mama or a classical beauty, just someone a prospective man can look at and think to himself, “If I was to get married, I wouldn’t mind waking up to someone looking like her in the morning”. If you achieve that, you have a sporting chance at least.
Having a pleasentness to your personality to match may sound like a kinda obvious thing to cultivate, but from anecdotal stories I have heard from family and friends over my life, it obviously gets overlooked.
Finally, the contentment refers to both the fact that instead of hoping for Prince Charming to rescue you from singledom, you might just find that aimming for a more realistic option might end up being a better option in the long run since you are more likely to hit moments of happiness more often if you are content with your life.
I’m no wordsmith and I do wish I could express myself better, but I hope that my post was good enough.
ctgvip@
“why the hell w