Apple Juice Boy

My wife had a coupon for IHOP a few weeks ago, so we decided to go have breakfast for lunch and invite my buddy along.  While we were there another couple sat at the booth next to us, and the man slid in on the woman’s side after she sat down.  I didn’t really notice the guy because I was helping my buddy out with his drinking problem.  He was wearing his new camo coveralls and looked ready to take on the world, but due to his situation he really needed my help.

My wife had a direct view of them since she was on the other side of the table so the description I’m sharing is from her.  The man in the couple was a pretty big guy, built like a biker with a shaved head, wearing a WWE T shirt.  At first glance he would have seemed like a tough guy, but he was constantly fawning over his girlfriend.  He was rubbing her back, stroking her hair, and giving her little kisses.  When it came time to order he made a big point of ordering apple juice to drink.  A more alpha guy could have pulled this less than manly beverage order off just fine, but not this guy.  His girlfriend looked like she was conflicted;  she liked the idea of all of the attention he was giving her, but for some reason she really wasn’t enjoying it.  I’m guessing my wife cringed subconsciously when she glanced over and saw him fawning on his girlfriend, because he started giving her man-bitchy looks.

On the drive home my wife mentioned the whole scene to me and said before learning about game she wouldn’t have understood what she had just witnessed.  She would have known something was wrong with the picture, but she wouldn’t have known exactly what.  We don’t eat out that often, but now she wants to go out just to see more examples of game in work (or examples of it lacking).  It really is funny how simple things can become when you have the right model to process the information with.  Too bad apple juice boy lacks that understanding.

Oh, and as for my buddy and his drinking problem, don’t worry about him.  He should be able to handle it just fine without any help in a matter of months.  In the meantime my wife and I are quite happy to help him out.  He was quiet during lunch and on the ride home, but I think he saw the man bitchy looks apple juice boy was giving my wife.  I snapped a picture of him while we were eating and when I reviewed the photos later I noticed he had adopted a protective posture.

He is a pretty perceptive fellow.

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81 Responses to Apple Juice Boy

  1. Badger Nation says:

    I think this was supposed to be an entertaining satire, but I couldn’t keep any of the characters straight while reading it.

  2. Will S. says:

    Glad to hear he’ll be off the bottle soon.🙂

    [D: Good one!]

  3. Tony Ryan says:

    Haha cool story.

    Yeah I think a common misconception guys have when getting into a relationship, that the game stops all together; that they can express their feelings for the women all time with ZERO constraint.

    In fact, I would go as far as to say a lack of sexual tension is the reasons most relationships fizzle out (at least in terms of sex).

    #####

    Great blog man, first time reading it. You have a really interesting perspective on game – as you’re one of the few in this community who is married and in a committed relationship. It’s also interesting to read how your wife knows and is conscious of game. Looking forward to reading future posts.

    [D: Thanks! Welcome.]

  4. Hope says:

    Your son is absolutely adorable! I didn’t get it until second reading that he’s the “buddy” with problems drinking.

    By the way, what’s your stance on the girl constantly fawning over the guy? I’m the one who is rubbing his back, clinging onto him, and giving him kisses a lot. Sometimes I wonder if it isn’t too much.

  5. Your son is absolutely adorable!

    I concur.🙂

  6. Badger Nation says:

    Dalrock readers might want to check out the latest part of yesterday’s HUS thread – an anonymous commentor claims that male commentors at HUS are “scary”, says that
    HUS is “just another misogynist PUA-MRA bitch site now” and claims Susan Walsh is “submissively sympathetic to the “Game” worldview.”

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/11/29/hookinguprealities/the-hidden-cost-of-keeping-sex-casual/#comment-22250

  7. Thag Jones says:

    Aw, cute. Funny story too. I’ve never liked those fawning couples (barf) and didn’t really care to be fawned over myself – a little demonstration of “ownership” is great, but not fawning – and I also never really knew why, but in light of “game,” it makes sense.

  8. John G says:

    I’d have to say, I usually don’t find kids that small cute, but yours is.

  9. dalrock says:

    Thanks All!

    @Hope
    By the way, what’s your stance on the girl constantly fawning over the guy? I’m the one who is rubbing his back, clinging onto him, and giving him kisses a lot. Sometimes I wonder if it isn’t too much.

    I’m not the expert on game, but my sense is it is very different when the sexes are reversed. I think what often happens is one sex tries to do for the other what they would want, and it doesn’t work. Maybe one of the readers who is an expert on game will have more insight on this.

  10. The Deuce says:

    @Badger Nation
    So what else is new?

  11. sdaedalus says:

    Your son is gorgeous, very handsome for his age, and looks extremely bright, too.

    [D: Thanks! He is already flirting with the ladies. It is pretty funny to watch.]

  12. dalrock says:

    Another example of game making the murky crystal clear: http://diaryofwhy.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-sorry-is-as-sorry-does.html

    See also the post immediately prior to it: http://diaryofwhy.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-im-alone-again-naturally.html

    All of the commenters on both posts think the guy is stupid or crazy. Sure. I thought about posting an explanation but couldn’t find a kind enough way to explain it.

    Edit: There is a new post which she just put up where it sounds like he lost his game and went Beta on her. However, check this older post out where she shit tests him by trying to get him to shave off his beard after the first date. When he tells her to go f*** herself she (and her sister) decide they like him: http://diaryofwhy.blogspot.com/2010/11/why-you-can-call-me-delilah.html Then he goes beta and shaves it off anyway…

  13. No, Hope, it is not too much. I have fond memories of my young wife doing that. She used to hold onto my clothing like a little kid. You will probably stop doing some of it eventually, but it is a very nice stage to be at.

  14. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hope:
    Your son is absolutely adorable! I didn’t get it until second reading that he’s the “buddy” with problems drinking.

    I got it immediately, but then I was just reading about Leslie Neilsen passing away, and that reminded me of “Airplane”, with the running joke about a man with a “drinking problem”…

    Dalrock, the small guy looks good, especially the way his eyes are tracking and focused.

  15. Will S. says:

    Speaking of “Airplane!”, remember how the security scanners in that movie made people appear naked on the screen?

    Funny, back then; not so funny, now…

  16. Hermit says:

    “All of the commenters on both posts think the guy is stupid or crazy…
    Edit: There is a new post which she just put up where it sounds like he lost his game and went Beta on her.”

    It sounds like he’s a noob practicing his game on her, and unable to fully commit to the aloof a-hole role.

  17. grerp says:

    Dalrock, your son is so beautiful.

  18. Anonymous Reader says:

    grerp
    Dalrock, your son is so beautiful.

    In a cherubic way, I suppose one could say that, however even at this age the boy is handsome.

  19. Hermit says:

    BTW, very cute kid Dalrock. My youngest isn’t too much older than him. It’s a fun age.

  20. mike says:

    Gorgeous kid. Looks like he’s telling some raging liberal to calm down.

  21. nothingbutthetruth says:

    Beautiful kid. It is our duty to fight for a world where kids like these are not treated like second-class citizens only for having a penis.

    The feminism is imploding and this kid will live to see this and have an easier life than the generation of his father.

  22. Susan Walsh says:

    OMG, I love Baby Dalrock! His eyes are like saucers!

  23. Susan Walsh says:

    Dalrock, I just went over and read those Diary of Why posts. Is there a difference between having natural Game and just being a complete and utter douchebag? Do you really want this guy as a poster boy? I disagree about the commenters’ characterization of him. Out of 44 comments on those two posts, 4 called him crazy and 1 called him a nut job. I didn’t see anyone call him stupid. Here are the other things women called him: Loser (2), Jerk (3), Pot-smoker, Clown, Asshole/Ass (4), Wanker, Psychopath, Douchebag (2), Dickhead.

    I agree that he isn’t crazy or stupid. The rest of the comments are perfectly accurate.

  24. Thag Jones says:

    Susan, I thought the same thing on those posts. She is just encouraging him by talking to him at all – and after only a week or two of seeing him she’s this frustrated? Hmm…. The dude sounds like a bit of an unempathetic (or maybe just pathetic) twat more than having natural game. He’s just taking the path of least resistance and she’s a tad neurotic. That’s what you get for sleeping with the guy before you know him – she’s invested before she realizes he’s a douche bag. He may, however, be stupid as well. His behaviour is indicative of stupid, though I’m not seeing crazy.

  25. Susan Walsh says:

    Thag, I do think it’s fair to wonder why she hung around with this guy in the first place. His aimlessness had to have been clear from the start. I suppose this falls under the category of chicks digging bad boys. I’m a little surprised – I don’t know Diary of Why well, but she “hangs out” with bloggers who are rather conservative in their sexual behavior while seeking a partner. Unfortunately, I think sometimes women get so desperate they start to “settle” for losers/jerks, even if they have never ridden the carousel before. They turn 30 and start making bad choices. Not a winning strategy.

  26. dalrock says:

    Do you really want this guy as a poster boy?

    You made me chuckle. No, I don’t want him as anything. And as you said the line between natural game and douche-bag is a finer one than I care to discern.

    But without understanding a little about game I might be in the group wondering why good girls are treated so badly when they are only following their hearts. I also found the comments ridiculous, along the lines of criticizing a Nigerian email scammer’s spelling after sending him a check. And the whole “you can tell your grandkids one day about how you screwed a loser, won’t that be funny?” angle leaves me speechless.

  27. Susan Walsh says:

    Haha, I like that Nigerian spammer metaphor! That’s the second time I have seen that story for the grandkids remark. Karen Owen (of the Duke F**k List) actually said that she’d collected some great stories for the grandkids. I assume she was joking, but it says something significant about the choices she’s making now. They’ll need to be secrets later.

  28. dalrock says:

    Thanks everyone for the compliments on our son!

  29. dalrock says:

    @Susan
    I don’t know Diary of Why well, but she “hangs out” with bloggers who are rather conservative in their sexual behavior while seeking a partner. Unfortunately, I think sometimes women get so desperate they start to “settle” for losers/jerks, even if they have never ridden the carousel before. They turn 30 and start making bad choices. Not a winning strategy.

    I’ve only read her blog a little bit. It is entertaining to read and she seems very likable. But in general I don’t understand why one would assume a woman unattached and making bad choices in her 30s made good choices in her 20s. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but it seems to me if I were to make an assumption that wouldn’t be it.

  30. Thag Jones says:

    I agree with Dalrock. Even if she hadn’t ridden the carousel before, it’s unlikely she’s only just started to make bad decisions. I keep saying that people who are single past a point (say, 35 or so) are that way for a reason (which can include the choice to be single, but a lot of people say that to make themselves feel better). It can’t all be someone else’s fault.

  31. OneSTDV says:

    Aww cute baby.

    But let me get this straight – your toddler is not an alcoholic right?

    [D: Thanks! He doesn’t toddle yet, but he loves to hop in his hoppy chair thing. As for his bottle, it is strictly formula, neat. 🙂 ]

  32. Susan Walsh says:

    It does seem unlikely that someone who kept a distance from bad guys for years would suddenly go for them. I don’t know about this particular case. I do think that women sometimes settle in all the wrong ways. For example, I insist that a guy has a great body, but I’m willing to overlook that he’s a professional gambler. Or, he has to make me laugh, but his being high 24/7 is something I can live with. Hypergamy should ensure this doesn’t happen, but plenty of low-status guys do surprisingly well, it seems.

  33. Badger Nation says:

    “For example, I insist that a guy has a great body, but I’m willing to overlook that he’s a professional gambler. Or, he has to make me laugh, but his being high 24/7 is something I can live with. ”

    To paraphrase Patty Stanger, “the vagina does the picking.” I would bet the vast majority of bad relationships for either gender involve setting aside comfort or character concerns if the person makes them tingle. It would be sad if it wasn’t so pathetic.

    It bothers me to hear women say “men think with their dicks” because every one of the numerous women I see dating assholes and players is thinking with her clam.

  34. Dalrock says:

    Well put Badger. We do men a service when we call them out on thinking with the wrong head. We do women a great disservice when we pretend that the same thing is following their heart or loving too much or even settling.

  35. Badger Nation says:

    Just read the Diary of Why posts.

    There’s not really anything new or interesting there, except the brazenness with which she condemns a man whose schlong she has already allowed inside her. This is pretty conventional asshole game (whether he’s consciously gaming or playing out his true personality) and a typically low-self-worth AW lapping it up.

    One of the comments brought to mind Dalrock’s post on poor impulse control:

    “We all date crazies; we very often sleep with crazies; we very, very often require what seems, in retrospect, to be an inordinate amount of time to pick out the crazies. But like everyone up there said, this will be a great one to tell the grandkids. Eventually.”

    Some women wear bad decisions as some kind of badge of honor. I don’t really have a lot of time for a chick who sleeps with an asshole, validating his behavior, and then complains he’s an asshole. She is fully responsible for the situation she is in. This girl slept with an unemployed pothead and has the gall to condemn HIS life choices?

    We guys can pick out douchebag guys in five minutes – no joke. We have well-honed douchebag detectors because male-on-male dishonesty and swindling is a dangerous enterprise to get roped into. Girls, get a male friend who’s not attracted to you and use his douche detector liberally.

    Here’s another comment outlining another common and destructive female pathology, the “you DESERVE it!” line of thinking:

    “You deserve to be with a man who will walk over burning coals for just one of your smiles. You deserve to be with a man who feels like A MAN by making his woman happy, no matter how much money he has or doesn’t have. A man who considers himself lucky to HAVE a woman to buy dinner for. A man who goes and buys condoms for himself bc he is thrilled to have a REASON to buy condoms.”

    In other words, she should get a guy who feels he’s lucky to be in her presence. She’s not going to come to resent THAT. Noooooo.

  36. sestamibi says:

    38 Special got it right:

    It’s so damn easy
    When your feelings are such
    To overprotect her
    To love her too much
    . . .
    Just hold on loosely
    And don’t let go
    If you cling too tightly
    You’re gonna lose control

  37. Dalrock says:

    @Badger
    In other words, she should get a guy who feels he’s lucky to be in her presence. She’s not going to come to resent THAT. Noooooo.

    I saw that comment too and thought the same thing. Plus, the whole assumption is that she deserves perfection for simply being, or perhaps more accurately simply being a woman.

    Why doesn’t the douche-bag unemployed pot smoker deserve a woman who would walk over hot coals for the privilege of screwing him and making him dinner then?

  38. Thag Jones says:

    Badger, I saw that “you deserve” comment and cringed too. I would think knowing in advance that he’s an unemployed pot head ought to have been enough to not even bother with a date, much less making yourself the fodder for gawkers and gossips. Embarrassing. The commenters all encouraged her in the beginning too – I looked at a few of the posts – so all they’re doing is echoing her and aiding her self-destructive behaviour. And this passes for “stories to tell the grandkids” (or maybe grandcats) these days? How low can we go?

  39. Badger Nation says:

    “I saw that comment too and thought the same thing. Plus, the whole assumption is that she deserves perfection for simply being, or perhaps more accurately simply being a woman.”

    In line with your observations that choice addiction and divorce fantasy are explicitly marketed to women, the way things like weight loss and dating advice are marketed differs wildly between men and women.

    Simply put, men are told how to “earn” things or “win” them. It’s never a secret that self-improvement, muscle-building, personality shaping (i.e. game) or job upgrades require that you WORK for it, then you get it because the work qualified you for it.

    Female marketing is the opposite – it begins with the premise that you “deserve” whatever it is you want – the body you deserve, the relationship you deserve, etc. Even an antidepressant was deceptively marketed with the web moniker thechangeyoudeserve.com. Now here’s the rub: usually “deserve” is simply a psychological extension of “wanting” something. It’s very solipsistic. (I even get this from women who say “well I can’t date that guy because my friend has a crush on him” – women clam-blocking their friends because they “deserve” the attention of the guy who’s not interested in him.)

    I can’t really speak to how many women intrinsically think this way…but the fact remains that this is a standard marketing strategy, and it must be working to some degree to sell books.

    Go to the self-help section of any bookstore (you’ll have to adjust for the fact ~90% of the goods are for women) and check this out.

  40. The Deuce says:

    Okay, the Diary of Why story tickled me so much, I couldn’t help being just a little bit bad.

  41. Hope says:

    Thanks Dalrock and David. There are lots of messages out there that tell women not to fawn over their men, to not be doormats or servants, and so on, that sometimes I wonder if my husband gets sick of all the gushy gestures. I do know he likes the daily cooking and frequent cleaning and backrubs/foot massages. I’m not as worried about seeming too motherly with that, because his mother hardly ever cooked or cleaned, since she’s quite a feminist.

    On another note, reading that Diary of Why blog made me really grateful to be living the life I am now. I also had put up with bad behavior like drug abuse and crazy personality in the past, for nearly 8 years (from 17 until 25). I didn’t stay because of “the tingles,” but because the ex would threaten to kill himself, and actually starved himself when I tried to break up with him. As someone naturally inclined toward being servicing and nurturing, it was very difficult to feel like I was destroying his life. I do feel terrible about the whole thing and know it was a big mistake in the end, but it’s not always easy to take action when you’re very young and have no healthy relationship role models.

    One thing is for sure. I would not be joking about it to my children or grandchildren. It’s terribly embarrassing and speaks to my deficiencies as a person. Although I could try to blame some of it on the naivete of youth (I was 15 when I had met the ex), I still was an adult when I made a lot of those bad choices.

  42. Badger Nation says:

    Susan,

    “Unfortunately, I think sometimes women get so desperate they start to “settle” for losers/jerks, even if they have never ridden the carousel before. They turn 30 and start making bad choices. Not a winning strategy.”

    This is part and parcel of my HUS comment that we have squeezed the casual dating scene out of the market. For a lot of those male-naive women I discussed, they had no slow, shallow introduction to the SMP. Their options were hooking up, FWB or college-marrieds. There’s no option to go on some dates without sex and see what kind of person you want to date.

  43. Badger Nation says:

    Deuce,

    Well-played.

  44. Paul says:

    Jeez… I’m getting really sick of hearing about what women “deserve” …and yet, according to the feminists MEN are the ones with entitlement issues… bleagh

  45. Badger Nation says:

    “Jeez… I’m getting really sick of hearing about what women “deserve” …and yet, according to the feminists MEN are the ones with entitlement issues… bleagh”

    The great paradox is that the most entitled women I know are also the least deserving. The ones who truly “deserve” good things in their lives actively seek to make it happen, and thus get what they want – the old line about luck being the intersection of preparation and opportunity. The ones who sit around bitching about what they deserve never actuate their lives.

  46. Anon-E-mous says:

    Dalrock –

    You should never post links to these type of sites. It’s like I have to read the whole thing and get entrapped in watching this glorious train wreck in slow motion. I do feel sorry for her at some level, but the bed she’s lying in is entirely of her own making.

    This post is quite telling:

    http://diaryofwhy.blogspot.com/2010/10/why-i-never-was-homecoming-queen.html

    Looking for a committed relationship in your early 30’s using strategies you developed in your early 20’s. What is Susan Walsh’s line again: “How’s that working out for you?”

    Not well, methinks.

  47. Thag Jones says:

    I posted this for the “why” girl on her newest post. Maybe it’ll help! I feel bad for her and her commentors are so unhelpful.

    Of course, she seems pretty invested in whining about everything so who knows. Truly painful to behold. Does it say somewhere how old she is? I know you’re all saying “30s” but is her age stated somewhere? Just curious.

  48. Susan Walsh says:

    Thag, that video is awesome! That woman is so cool – I love her sense of color, whimsy, her outlook. Gaaahhh, I think I have to post that. Thanks for sharing!

  49. Thag Jones says:

    Susan, you’re welcome! I love that video. I usually don’t like people’s silly poetry much, but that one is sweet and unpretentious. It makes me wish I was alone! lol

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  51. Steve Johnson says:

    Wow Dalrock, the comment section on that post has enough hamster power to light a small city.

  52. Badger Nation says:

    “I feel bad for her and her commentors are so unhelpful.”

    I agree…she seems a bit lost, nothing wrong with that – it’s her rationalizing, you go girl commenters who aren’t helping her improve her life.

  53. Dalrock says:

    Thag I’m not sure if I love or hate that video, but either way it is quite good!

  54. Dalrock says:

    @Badger
    I agree…she seems a bit lost, nothing wrong with that – it’s her rationalizing, you go girl commenters who aren’t helping her improve her life.

    Absolutely. Sadly you could pick pretty much any woman’s blog discussing dating and see the same bad advice. You have to love the white knight suckups though. They are always good for a laugh.

  55. Thag Jones says:

    I know what you mean Dalrock, but I decided there was more that was good about it than bad.😉

  56. Badger Nation says:

    DRock,

    From that last post you linked:

    “It’s official. There are no cute, single guys my age left.”

    The memories are dim, but there was a post like this on the Frisky a few months ago, where some approaching-30 woman lamented there weren’t enough men from her to choose from and that guys needed to “get in gear” or somesuch shaming to her desires. She was predictably pilloried by visiting commenters and ripped on the manosphere.

    At least Diary of Why has the honesty to recognize she’s in a tough market, admitting she “missed the window.”

    People like Susan, who are actually advising women on long-term pair-bonding strategy, are doing yeoman’s/God’s work teaching young women HOW to not “miss the window.”

  57. The Deuce says:

    I know what you mean Dalrock, but I decided there was more that was good about it than bad.😉

    Well, I’ll put it this way. Giving a woman advice on how to come to terms with being alone surely beats giving her advice on how to find a partner that will result in her being alone anyways, as well as used up, desperate, and miserable.

  58. Mister_Y says:

    Hope
    On another note, reading that Diary of Why blog made me really grateful to be living the life I am now. I also had put up with bad behavior like drug abuse and crazy personality in the past, for nearly 8 years (from 17 until 25). I didn’t stay because of “the tingles,” but because the ex would threaten to kill himself, and actually starved himself when I tried to break up with him. As someone naturally inclined toward being servicing and nurturing, it was very difficult to feel like I was destroying his life. I do feel terrible about the whole thing and know it was a big mistake in the end, but it’s not always easy to take action when you’re very young and have no healthy relationship role models.

    This brings up something that I’ve been meaning to discuss here or at HUS for a while, the misapplication of women’s nurturing desires. I’ve seen women who were pleasant, reasonably competent people put up with manipulative weasels of men, because of the “wounded bird” syndrome. The good hearted woman who can’t say “no” to a man who pushes her pity buttons. Maybe not as common now in the era of entitled women, but still out there and sometimes one sees young church going ladies who somehow feel it is God’s calling to them to prop up a drunk / pothead. I watched one of these train wrecks in the 80’s, and the woman in question would not listen to anyone of her friends, men or women, until she finally caught the weasel cheating in flagrente delicto.

    Threats of suicide are not the way that anyone retains the love of a good woman, or a good man. Threats of suicide are heavy duty manipulation, or the act of someone with mental disorders. So glad you are free of that, Hope.

    I once listened to a young woman who had one of these bad relationships pouring out her troubles after the 3rd drink, and essentially it seemed to me that in her heart, she didn’t really believe that she deserved better. Again, maybe not so common in the modern era.

  59. Wayfinder says:

    Again, maybe not so common in the modern era.
    Maybe, but I’d venture to guess that some of the egotistical, self-centered people are insecure about how they really measure up. It wouldn’t be easy for them to admit it, of course. But there can be a lot of resentment towards people who outperform them.

  60. Anon-E-mous says:

    Thag –

    Dalrock already answered it, but she’s 30 this year. I read from the beginning of her blog (2007) where she states she is 27, and has just ended a 3-year relationship.

    I’ve been skimming from back to front (2007-2008, and 2010), trying not to get sucked into the tarpit of gloom she has created over there. You want reason with her and get her out of her living miasma of pity, guilt, self-doubt and anger she’s built up around herself, but I doubt reason would do any good.

    She does have a huge constellation of orbiters selling the “you deserve it” line pretty damn hard. I wonder who they are really trying to convince with that argument: her or themselves?

  61. Thag Jones says:

    Yeah, it’s kind of tiring reading and I don’t have too much time for it. I doubt anything I say will have any effect really, but thought I’d just leave one comment and that’s that while I was there anyway. I can’t believe someone would post all that on the Internet – with a picture of themselves to boot! Do people have no sense of privacy or shame? I’d feel stupid enough without broadcasting it to the world!

    It’s too bad, because she doesn’t sound stupid or anything, just completely on the wrong track.

  62. Thag Jones says:

    I’ve seen women who were pleasant, reasonably competent people put up with manipulative weasels of men, because of the “wounded bird” syndrome.

    My grandmother did that – people referred to my granddad as “Billie’s lame duck.” I’ve done it too; ugh! I just end up resenting someone like that but I do find it hard to “not help,” though I know sometimes the best way to help someone is to let them fall and maybe kick a little sand in their face for good measure. And then walk away.

  63. Anon-E-mous says:

    Thag –

    “Why” seems to be in this perpetual, gentle, downward spiral … starting with online dating when she was 18, and continually returning to it to find relationships that quickly fizzle and fail. She can’t find a man to “commit” to her in Boston, so she moves to Washington DC (!). She flirts with married men and the recently divorced and wonders why these “friends” drift away from her.

    She doesn’t seem to grasp that she just continually repeats the methods that have failed her so miserably in the past. (Definition of “madness” anyone?) It’s almost like she needs to make one of her standard decisions on relationships, then take the exact opposite action.

    “Why” needs to take the advice of her British professor and start to “smile more”. Even “acting” happy when you aren’t will tend to move you gradually toward more happiness. Attitude is a huge piece of how we perceive our existences and live our lives.

  64. Omnipitron says:

    I’ve got a question in regards to men who have no game. Is it possible that when men are supplicant to women, that they seek to give a woman what they would themselves like to get from women? I mean, the man is supposed to lead, not saying that his partner is supposed to be a doormat, and women tend to seek confident men who aren’t afraid to take the lead.

    Just a question I was mulling over.

  65. Hope says:

    Mister_Y, thank you. Honestly the whole situation was bad, and I can’t really fully blame him. He had a hard life, too. His biological father died when he was a teenager, and his mother was a drug user, smoked crack, divorced his father, and slept with random men at bars. The men his mother slept with would be awful drunks and beat her up, but she didn’t stop into her 50s. So he didn’t have great role models. It’s just another case of the breakdown of the family unit leading to many problems down the road. Things would have turned out differently had both of us been born to in tact families.

  66. Omnipitron, someone generally leads, and I think it is better if it is the man.

    I don’t think men who supplicate are trying to model what they would like from their wife. I think they are trying to appease her. Perhaps it is a misapplication of a normal, healthy female technique. I can always tell when my wife wants something, because she becomes extra attentive. It works on men, because men like being played up to. We like to “condescend”. But women don’t, not to a man they hope to love and respect.

    It is a bit like women thinking, I find successful men attractive – so men will find me more attractive if I garner more worldly power and resources. Generally, no. Maybe men think that by supplicating, women will ease off on the nasty. But that fails too, because it is trying to use the normal technique of the opposite sex.

    Let’s face it, women can do all sorts of cutesy wheedling which both the man and his wife will enjoy, but if a man did it, people would think he was insane. I love it when my wife plays up to me. It makes me want to give her what she is asking for.

    On leadership, the big thing for men to learn is that it cannot be demanded. Lead, and let her follow. Draw her along. Don’t try to push her. That doesn’t work.

  67. I’ve got a question in regards to men who have no game. Is it possible that when men are supplicant to women, that they seek to give a woman what they would themselves like to get from women?

    For some of us, it’s because we’re trying to bribe the female in question in niceness as it’s the only tool that we have to get her and to a certain extent, other people to what we want. In other cases, it’s because we want to be “nice people” and take her opinion into account, and we think that pleasing her will make her happy and love us more. Some do this based on our relationships with our mothers and other close females and in other cases, we’re trying to avoid the fighting that happened when our parents were married.

  68. Omnipitron says:

    Thanks David C and David A, that does shed quite a bit of light.

  69. Anonymous Reader says:

    David Alexander
    For some of us, it’s because we’re trying to bribe the female in question in niceness

    Yes. This is true. It also is behavior that is reinforced by the main stream media.

    Some do this based on our relationships with our mothers and other close females and in other cases, we’re trying to avoid the fighting that happened when our parents were married.

    Those of us who grew up in families with no fighting, with minimal drama, with parents who were polite to one another also find being polite, decent, nice men as a kind of default mode. It is quite possible to be an assertive man outside the home and have the expectation that within the home, there should not be any need to do that. It may be an aversion to conflict with immediate family. But in any event, it can lead to a situation where a man puts up with increasingly obnoxious behavior, because he never saw his father having to deal with such things at all.

    A two-parent, working father, stay at home mother (who does part time charity work) type of family is really good for children to grow up within. However, it does not prepare a man to deal with a wife who works outside the home for money, and it does not prepare that wife either. Some people find it difficult to shift mentally from the world of work to the private home life, and that brings some interesting conflicts up.

    It’s quite possible to be conflict-averse at home because one grew up in a calm, drama-free household, perhaps because one’s father had natural alpha Game and therefore never had to demonstrate control of the family in an overt way.

  70. Badger Nation says:

    Omnipitron,

    “Is it possible that when men are supplicant to women, that they seek to give a woman what they would themselves like to get from women?”

    I agree more with your theory than with DC’s, although both can coexist in the SMP. Plenty of men are decent people who don’t want to trouble anybody, so they operate with the “do as you have done to you” principle in mind.

    The Golden Rule is OK for equity ethics, but it’s a failure in social dynamics, especially with the opposite sex (since the two genders are so different when it comes to social style).

  71. Badger Nation says:

    “On leadership, the big thing for men to learn is that it cannot be demanded. Lead, and let her follow. Draw her along. Don’t try to push her. That doesn’t work.”

    Athol Kay just posted to this effect, addressing women who nag their husbands to employ the techniques he advocates.

  72. Wayfinder says:

    It’s quite possible to be conflict-averse at home because one grew up in a calm, drama-free household, perhaps because one’s father had natural alpha Game and therefore never had to demonstrate control of the family in an overt way.

    I’m coming to realize that this is probably the reason why I was having such problems dating. I certainly never saw my mother behaving anywhere near as badly as the girls I dated, so I assumed I was supposed to go along with it, not having an overt example of putting down bad behavior.

  73. Thag Jones says:

    This is interesting, because I grew up with my mom being kind of nuts and my dad’s way of dealing with it was to “ignore” her until, after years of yelling and screaming, it became a tense, Harold Pinter-esque quiet. She really kind of made everyone’s life miserable and there was no need for it.

    When I look back on it, she was a SAHM while my dad worked long hours in construction to pay for our house that was on a reasonably nice working class street with other kids and SAHMs until we moved to a bit ‘better’ neighbourhood…and all she did was complain. The only reason they didn’t divorce when I was about 9 years old was that my dad refused to let her take us out of the country to live close to her psycho mother. I think that was pretty much when the silence descended on our house.

    It all kind of made me wary of getting married at all and I think it’s probably partly why I always tend to have one foot out the door in relationships. When we would pass a church where a wedding was going on my dad would say, “Hey look, a funeral.” He said at first he tried to “make her happy,” but soon realised it was futile and gave up completely.

  74. Dalrock says:

    What a powerful story Thag. The sad thing is even your mother wasn’t happy. A loss all around.

    I saw your exchange with Diary of Why. You gave the kind advice which was missing, but she very much didn’t want to hear it. I just saw another post on her site which helped clarify a great deal for me: http://diaryofwhy.blogspot.com/2010/05/why-friendship-is-one-way-street.html

  75. Thag Jones says:

    Oy vey, that entry of hers! *headdesk* And the first comment, “…[it’ll] make you feel better.” This chick is depressing. Just apologize for being a drunken a-hole, how hard is that?! But no, it’s all his fault…. It’s funny how every male she knows is a “douche” though. Even if they are, who’s fault is it that she chooses them? I think she might be headed for crazy cat lady land in the near future.

    As for my story, it is a shame really. Not much has changed with my parents either apart from them having split around 14 years ago. My mom’s calmed down a good bit, but she’s still largely unhappy and complains a lot; my dad’s a bit of a workaholic though he’d never admit it and makes excuses for it. :-\

  76. Anonymous Reader says:

    Badger Nation
    Plenty of men are decent people who don’t want to trouble anybody, so they operate with the “do as you have done to you” principle in mind.

    Yes.

    The Golden Rule is OK for equity ethics, but it’s a failure in social dynamics, especially with the opposite sex (since the two genders are so different when it comes to social style).

    +1 on that. Because what women want men to do for/to them is not the same as what men want women to do for/to them. That is because, contrary to feminism, men and women are not the same. Once again, women are not men who can have babies, and men are not defective women. Women’s needs for emotional security, for various forms of affirmation are different from men’s emotional needs and other forms of affirmation. My father knew plenty about women, however he probably did not see any need to teach it to me aside from some basics, because it all seemed so obvious to him. Well, different generation just for a start.

    I’m on this site because of a trail of links that led here, starting from Spearhead; I’m here because I started actively learning Game, because the equity version of the Golden Rule was not working for me…

  77. Anonymous Reader says:

    Thag Jones:
    He said at first he tried to “make her happy,” but soon realised it was futile and gave up completely.

    Very important failure, in the “how did this break” sense: no man is responsible for a woman’s happiness, and vice versa. I have been happy while surrounded by some sad sacks, and I have been quite, quite sad while in the company of some happy people.
    Viktor Frankl addresses this in a small book, “Man’s Search for Meaning”. I read it back in the 1990’s while various bad things were happening, none of which came even remotely close to what Frankl and others survived.

    We can be at least content, if we set our minds to it. Or we can be unhappy. The latter surely wears on the mind, and body, and as you testify it wears on everyone around, too.

    Anyway, Thag, your mother had clearly decided at some mental level to “not be happy”. That’s not uncommon, and I fear that the millenials will be doing that a lot, because reality ain’t gonna measure up to their sense of “specialness”, entitlement and downright narcissism.

  78. Thag Jones says:

    AR, very true. Happiness is, in the end, a choice. I’ve learned lately that one can even be relatively content in the midst of an episode of the blues, knowing that it’s only weather and it will pass and the sun will come out again. This also tends to make it pass more quickly, rather than investing in the gloom and giving it strength by your resistance to it (as opposed to accepting it as something like passing clouds, we’ll get miserable over our misery and fling blame around and so forth). I won’t say it’s been easy to get to this point, but it’s definitely possible if one is willing to face the truth and deal with what is, not a bunch of rationalizations and fantasy. It definitely helps to read people like Victor Frankl and realise that we are lucky to have the lives we have and to be just a little bit more grateful – there but for the grace of God go I.

    I feel like all this belongs on the next post (Isn’t it time you left your husband?)!

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