Time’s a wastin

Amy Alkon is a 46 year old never married woman who writes a blog titled Advice Goddess (H/T Thag).  Her recent post Settle Sore has a familiar question to which she whispers familiar advice.  Letter Writer (LW) asks:

I’m a 23-year-old law student with a boyfriend who attends grad school 16 hours away. We’re both swamped at school, so we visit once a month. I’ve only been with one other guy, but I hate the dating scene. Still, maybe I need to date around to make sure he’s the right person. Then again, since you date to find someone you love, why would you leave someone you love so you can date? I’m pretty sure he’ll propose when we both graduate, and he’s theoretically everything I want, but it frustrates me that he has grand plans and never follows through. Also, he’s willing to move thousands of miles to be with me; I can’t say I’d do the same. I do love him, but I once read that once you doubt the love, you’ve stopped loving that person forever.

Advice Goddess opens her reply with:

Doubt gets a bad rap. Doubting love doesn’t mean you’ve stopped loving, but that you’ve started thinking. Sheep doubt nothing. Chances are you’ll get further in life by questioning things than by living like something that ends up dinner and a sweater.

Following some further words of wisdom, she then gets to:

Dating to find somebody you love is what you do after you’ve dated enough to get a handle on all the stuff you hate. Falling in love is easy; staying in love takes some doing

Really?  Falling in love is easy for women?  Then why do we read about so many women being forced to marry a man they didn’t love?  Are they falling in love with Brad and then deciding to marry John who they didn’t fall in love with?  I’m not sure that is the case, but if it is doesn’t that in itself prove that falling in love with a man isn’t something a woman should take lightly since she will likely struggle to fall in love again?

I do agree that staying in love is the trick, and that does take work (or more accurately not being a dumbass).  But this comes back to the original folk wisdom that a life plagued by constant doubt is a sign of high intelligence and the path to ultimate happiness.

The Goddess continues:

At this point, a wiser approach would be a more Amish one — and no, I don’t mean tossing all your lightbulbs, donning a bonnet and churning butter. They have this practice called “Rumspringa” — a “running around” period for Amish teens to dabble in modern culture: smoke, drink, date, and wear zippers. Experiencing what’s out there helps them make an informed decision — whether to stay modern or go back and live Amish. You, likewise, might propose a period of time where you both date around so you can get a better sense of whether you’re with him because you’ve been with him or whether you’re actually choosing him over a bunch of others.

Pretty boiler plate stuff, although the Amish rationalization was a nice touch.  She finishes by advising her to string the guy along if she doesn’t want to take the initial advice:

If you keep seeing him, avoid pledging to be together forever until you’re reasonably sure you’ll still want to be together at 27 — tempting as it is to respond to “Will you marry me?” with something a little more romantic than “Um, uhhh…look! A UFO!”

As I said in the beginning, a familiar case with familiar advice.  And as before, it is a case of the right answer for the wrong reason.  I do agree that LW should break the relationship off.  Not because she hasn’t learned to be sufficiently fickle, but because:

  1. She is asking for advice on finding a husband from a 46 year old never married woman.  If she wants to know what brand of clothes to dress her chihuahua in, Advice Goddess would be the right source.  LW lacks the basic sense to enter into any sort of binding agreement.  But I hear tramping around builds wisdom, so there is always hope.
  2. She isn’t really interested in the guy.  She says right out that she wouldn’t move to be with him.  Her time is better spent finding the right guy instead of using this one as a security blanket.

I’m not sure which reason is the more important one.  But I don’t know how to make frivolous people not frivolous, so I’ll address item 2.  Finding the right person is not easy.  I’m constantly reading in the comments section how hard women find it to find quality men.  Not only are quality men rare, but it is even rarer still for them to find themselves attracted to them.  Of course attraction to a nice guy also isn’t enough, he needs to be the right guy and she needs to fall head over heels in love with him.

Meanwhile her ability to attract the best men is slowly declining, and her ability to keep her virginity in tact or at least her partner count low is also at risk.  Put off marriage for too long and chastity starts to seem less realistic and therefore less relevant.

Not all young women want to marry.  For those who do, finding the right man is a huge challenge.  Those who tell women you have all the time in the world are doing them a huge disservice.  This is serious work, unless you are a frivolous person who feels that if they choose unwisely they can leave a trail of wreckage in their wake.  For a woman who feels that divorce is a remedy to her failure to take her husband search seriously, I would reinforce the suggestion to take your time;  wait until at least 45 to start looking for a husband.

For those who take marriage seriously, time’s a wastin.

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42 Responses to Time’s a wastin

  1. Brendan says:

    The “I can’t say I would” comment is the deal-killer.

    If you’re in a longish-term LDR and you are NOT ultimately willing to move to be with the other person, you’re doing it very wrong. It’s the red flag she sees, but she doesn’t want to blame her own lack of interest for cratering the relationship, so she’s looking for cover. If she would woman-up, she would realize “I’m just not that into him”, tell him the same, and move on. It’s clearly what she needs to do, based on the facts she’s related.

  2. Eumaios says:

    Why would we ever believe Spinster doesn’t make up such letters pour encourager les autres?

  3. Omnipitron says:

    Read the comments on the site and Thag did an amazing job telling the truth to a host of people who didn’t want to hear it. Quite a few men agreed with Thag and yet you still had many women (and a much smaller amount of men) who disagreed. I’m always perplexed when a man will state what it is that men usually look for in women, so here you are getting information right out of the horses mouth, and yet you will have women say that it’s wrong?

    Uh…pardon me?

    Some rules which may assist ladies in the future in regards to what men say they want in women.

    #1. You don’t know more than the horse.

    #2. You don’t know more than the horse.

    #3. Refer to numbers one and two.

    I will add though that Amy is usually on the ball when it comes to what men want and she has stated that she didn’t want to get married in the past. I guess no one will really bat 1.000.

  4. dragnet says:

    For all her flaws, she does a really good job in this article here:

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/201010/the-truth-about-beauty

    But yeah this particular blogpost is extremely misguided.

  5. “Not all young women want to marry”

    I think this could be better written as “not all young women want to marry right away“. And this is the rub of the problem. I think the vast majority of women do want to marry, they have dreams of marriage to Prince Charming and live happily ever after since they were little. Just the timing does not feel right to them for whatever reason (feelin’ in love, hearin’ the whispers, etc).

    Problem is that by the time they do figure out that the time is right for them to get married, the opportune time for them to do so has long since passed. And they have probably done irreperable harm to their own ability to remain committed.

  6. Thag Jones says:

    Amy usually does a decent job, but this one was way off. It IS funny how they won’t listen to what men say. Well, except the ones who say “I’m 37 and I pulled a hot 52 year-old last night.” Um, OK.

  7. Lovekraft says:

    The mark of intelligence and maturity is being able to make decisions and live with the consequences. The overwhelming flakiness of modern feminized women is either selfish or immature when it comes to progressing in a relationship.

    Men get tired real fast of having to provide ‘the spark’ (F that word!) and know deep down whether the relationship is going in the right direction. But to have some flake undermine, delay and sabotage this is the reason a lot of men walk, after the sex has gone stale that is.

  8. Anonymous Reader says:

    That’s quite a thread. If all the energy expended by the rationalization hamsters over there could be harnessed, we could all be driving electric cars…

  9. I see the crux of her problem as being a law student and presumably career focused. What she really loves is her career and that is tough competition for a man. Any man she is with will always take the back seat. Her heart is taken. I know a few marriages that are struggling right now because the wife is so obsessed with her career. One has even moved across country for her career and told her husband, “if you love me enough, you will follow me out here”. No thought is given to what he wants or what might be best for their marriage/family.

    If I was giving advice, I would say no marriage will work as long as you are career focused. Jobs (especially part-time or home based) are another story. Jobs are just a paycheck, not something that makes you feel ‘complete’ or where you get your self-worth. With a job, a woman can provide what she can and instead find her value in her marriage and as a wife. We all are searching for something to make us whole; the problem is most modern women find that need in careers, before husbands are even a serious possibility. The hole is filled and then the husband become accessories or sad puppy dogs following them around the country.

    Further, this whole doubting love concept is at the hands of Satan. He loves to cause doubt in God’s plan. God’s plan being to find a husband and marry. The more she doubts the longer she will go not marrying and this will be a win for Satan. When we Christians doubt our faith, it is the same thing. Satan trying to lead us astray.

  10. Thag Jones says:

    Further, this whole doubting love concept is at the hands of Satan. He loves to cause doubt in God’s plan. God’s plan being to find a husband and marry. The more she doubts the longer she will go not marrying and this will be a win for Satan. When we Christians doubt our faith, it is the same thing. Satan trying to lead us astray.

    I totally agree. Try telling them that though.

    Also, it looks like Amy has lost it on that thread. All she seems to have for me is sarcasm and deliberate misreading of what I say. Fun times. And I thought she was smarter than that, though I’ve seen her say a few other things that put her squarely in the category of what an older male friend of mine refers to as MAAS, or Middle Aged Animal Substitute. It’s amazing how many of these MAAS women are similar along a range of being juvenile and bitter. You learn a LOT about humans by raising them and for women more than men it seems, the lack of having done that shows. Some hide it better than others, but it doesn’t take a whole lot for the real colours to show.

  11. Sox says:

    The self-deception going on in that thread is staggering. I thought it was common knowledge that women peak in attractiveness much earlier than men. Some people just hate the existence of general rules and come up with all kinds of exceptions to prove them wrong. And a 37 year old man bragging about bagging a 52 year old woman? What the hell?

    I was going to respond in there but by the end I saw how fruitless arguing with them is.

    The greater issue here is the widespread narcissism and individualism becoming so prevalent in Gen Y. Everyone’s all about mememe nownownow, avoiding commitment, and building self esteem. While men are being affected, it’s more readily observable in young women because they’re at their peak. This girl’s letter is indicative of a whole set of young women that mean well but don’t even realize how incredibly self-centered and flippant they appear.

    Everyone’s trying to “find themselves” and finding it harder and harder to do so yet having the opportunity to play and experiment well into their 30’s. Thank God some people are smart enough to see that maybe play and self-indulgence aren’t the path to enlightenment.

  12. Omnipitron says:

    “Well, except the ones who say “I’m 37 and I pulled a hot 52 year-old last night.” Um, OK.”

    That particular comment really raised an eyebrow for me because in my most Mangina moments years past, I would have followed the same pattern and supported the flagging female viewpoint too. Now that I’m shedding more and more of my residual White Knightery, I find it interesting how easy these types are to spot.

  13. Thag Jones says:

    Omnipitron, Did you see the comment from the 20 year-old whose friends think she’s crazy when she “jokes” that she’d like to be married by 22/23? See, when I was 23, I’d have thought she was nuts too, but now I think everyone else is nuts. People make jokes to test the waters, and she’s being fed the lie by her friends that only the mentally ill would do that! And now she’s getting all shirty with me of course. Jesus Murphy, I’m really beginning to think most women are just plain stupid. Trying to reason with most of them is exasperating beyond belief – no wonder men have beer fridges.

  14. jack says:

    Absolutely get married – the sooner you gals get hitched, the sooner you can join in all the fun:

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/8140103/Why-are-so-many-married-women-having-affairs.html

    Nothing spices up casual sex quite like being married to someone else.

  15. dalrock says:

    The Mangina (ltw) who made the comments about the 52 year old woman being so hot was really amazing. Note also that he didn’t actually pull the 52 year old woman. He only hit on her and talked with her.

    More anecdotal and therefore useless evidence – last night I hit on a 52 year old woman – I’m 37 – and I tell you now, I wasn’t thinking “this is the best I can do”, “has her divorce made her bitter”, “has she slept around” or anything else other than she was hot (and how!) and we were enjoying talking.

    Then another mangina (jonQpublic) immediately chimed in, eager to please the shrews in denial:

    I agree completely with Ltw and lovelysoul. I generally find a woman in her 40’s or later, that has done the appropriate upkeep, way sexier than anyone in their twenties.

    This is the same guy who earlier in the thread said:

    Well, I’m 40 and couldn’t get laid in a women’s prison with a fistful of pardons.🙂

    So he’s doing what all men have been taught, and that is to suck up to the women if they want to get any action.

  16. Jack,
    That is one heck of a link. I might write on it as it really needs a good dose of reality. There were certain key lines that just validate my thoughts on modern women.

    Omni,
    “I find it interesting how easy these types are to spot.”
    I know what you mean. The further down the rabbit hold I go, the more I realize these sorts of women are all around. Daily something will happen that backs up what I write.

    Thag,
    I am encouraged by you. I have noticed a few women here and there popping up that seem to get it. I appreciate you taking on our ‘sisters’….such as you did in that thread.

  17. Pingback: Dalrocks Law | Dalrock

  18. Nergal says:

    The only thing sleeping around does for women is make them jaded and bitter. Mzzzzzz. Alkon is simply spreading the misery around. She must be aware of it, that is, consciously doing so. How could she not be? How does she think that the same “wisdom” that screwed her life up, won’t do the same thing to other women?

    Ladies,don’t take relationship advice from women. You might as well be buying apples from the witch in Snow White.
    No offence,but very few of you know anything about women. You’re too close to the subject and have too much personally invested in being non-judgmental and non-discriminating which is perfect for re-assuring people, but the opposite of what you need to advise someone.

    I agree with Dalrock. HE needs a better mate than someone who considers cheating as a way to improve herself. Again, a case of women imitating men poorly.

    You’re supposed to “sow your wild oats” BEFORE you get into a serious relationship.

    Maybe women should be offered the choice of heavily sedating themselves to keep them from thinking up these stupid things for ,as far as I can tell, as long as they are conscious, their brains are thinking up stupid and destructive courses of actions.

    The cure for doubt is not to ‘test’ every little thing with irrevocable betrayals of trust,it’s to give the present course time to work itself out or not,because a failure then is revocable. You can start a new relationship,you can’t fix a betrayal like that in the one you’re in. Having another man stick his penis in you when you have a man wanting to propose to you is irrevocable. Even if he agrees to overlook it and marry you anyway, it will still be a black mark against you forever,because it amounts to betrayal.

    I wouldn’t overlook it, personally. When a woman says “Let’s see other people.” I say “see you later”. I don’t want one of these women, they are perched precariously on the ledge of cuckholdry,a strong breeze will push them to the cuckhold side.

  19. Omnipitron says:

    I didn’t see that comment Thag, ugh, what a shame really. Just because some can’t face a rather ugly, but fairly serious truth in their own lives, another woman’s life could be compromised.

  20. Anonymous Reader says:

    From the article Jack points to:

    I have mum friends but I missed the buzz of male company I used to have and I missed the irresponsibility of my old life – going out on a Saturday and not knowing who I might meet, where the evening might take me.’

    Now, what was it the study that the Social Pathologist said about probability of divorce and number of sexual partners a woman has before marriage? Carousel, anyone?

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    Laura Grace Robbins:
    I see the crux of her problem as being a law student and presumably career focused. What she really loves is her career and that is tough competition for a man.

    In fact she is either “married” to her career, or on the verge of doing so. This, as you note, doesn’t bode well for marriage. As a side note, this can happen after a woman is married; someone who is dutiful and dedicated to doing a good job can wind up essentially “married” to her job, with more respect for her coworkers than for her husband. Mothers can also wind up “married” to their children.

    It’s all an error. Children come into a marriage, and they grow, and in time they leave but hopefully the marriage goes on. Men and women have jobs, some have careers, but in time they change employment and hopefully the marriage goes on.

    It’s all too easy for a younger woman to wish for a lot of things; the modern, “I Am Special” entitled ones even more so.

  22. Octavia says:

    I’m following the thread and I find it to be quite interesting. I think it contains many perspectives, some more in concert with my views than others. Regardless of all the advice given, a person can make very different choices from his/her peers that are still perfectly right for his/her needs. So remarks about what “most” people do, which sometimes includes badgering with statistics, can be wasteful and even counterproductive.

  23. Omnipitron says:

    “So remarks about what “most” people do, which sometimes includes badgering with statistics, can be wasteful and even counterproductive.”

    Exactly why would this be counterproductive?

    Maybe the reason why figuring out what most people would do is counterproductive is due to the fact that the outcome isn’t the one which you desire?

  24. Octavia says:

    Omnipitron: “Exactly why would this be counterproductive? Maybe the reason why figuring out what most people would do is counterproductive is due to the fact that the outcome isn’t the one which you desire?”

    While I’ll listen to just about anyone, I truly pay attention to those who have my best interests at heart. I only care about the opinions of people who matter to me, which means embracing any constructive criticism offered and then adjusting my course. Likewise, I only care about attracting the type of man I want in my life, as opposed to trying to figure out what men in general want. I think some people get confused and waste time because they’re listening to/trying to appeal to a much larger demographic than is reasonable.

  25. Badger Nation says:

    I concur with the Rock that Amy is giving basically correct advice (break up and move on) for the wrong reasons (Amy is projecting her own advocacy of the Slut It Up Twenties onto the LW). AA’s only problem is advocating some kind of EPL “discovery” phase; unfortunately when challenged, she doubles down on this.

    “I’ve only been with one other guy, but I hate the dating scene.”

    Bingo, she’s hooked on the stability/security. I can empathize, but she’s in this LTR for the wrong reasons. She’s basically using him as a “beard.” She’s also building up resentment points for later use:

    “he’s theoretically everything I want, but it frustrates me that he has grand plans and never follows through. Also, he’s willing to move thousands of miles to be with me; I can’t say I’d do the same.”

    Did anyone else catch the doubt in this part?

    “I’m pretty sure he’ll propose when we both graduate”

    Sounds like she’s invested in the “relationship as inertial object” model. If she doesn’t really know whether he’s planning to ask, this LTR is far more primitive and avoidant than she’s giving herself credit for.

    Methinks this was more female commitment phobia – she probably hasn’t brought it up herself, because she really doesn’t want to make the decision. She’d much rather just be able to react to someone else’s decision-making (I mean, she’s writing to an advice columnist to tell her it’s OK to break up with him.)

    I have always been of the belief that a proposal should be like a birthday present – you should know it’s coming, but be surprised at what it is. I came to this view before I learned that many women will secretly pine away praying into their pillow that they’ll come home one day to rose petals and an engagement ring just like in commercials, apparently thinking that a man will ask a woman to be his legally binding business partner without so much as a discussion.

    People who get engaged or even married without discussing the terms upon which they plan to live their joined life should be considered like people who didn’t sign the informed consent forms before undergoing a medical procedure – dupes, people who don’t even know what questions to ask. And this is how a lot of people end up married!

    Here’s a hint for the girls: if HE hasn’t discussed whether he sees marriage as a goal and what he imagines married life will be like, don’t expect an imminent proposal.

    If YOU haven’t brought it up, do so. Be as open and empathetic as possible or you won’t get honest answers. “…but what if it makes him upset?” Do you want to be with a man who cannot rationally discuss his long-term life plan, whatever it may be? Or is your protest just another example of you don’t want to be the one making the decisions? Be prepared to learn something that might be cause to walk out of the relationship. If you’re not so prepared…maybe you should walk out anyway and mature a bit.

    It does blow my mind how passive many women want to be in relationships, how much they don’t want to discuss uncomfortable issues and incompatibilities. I think they wait to bait and goad their man into leadership and social dominance, but all they end up doing is screwing up their life by letting go of their own rudder.

    [D: Outstanding comment.]

  26. Badger Nation says:

    Nergal,

    “Ladies,don’t take relationship advice from women. You might as well be buying apples from the witch in Snow White. No offence,but very few of you know anything about women”

    Here’s the real reason you shouldn’t take dating advice from women (whether you are a woman or a man): most WOMEN don’t know anything about women. People in general are not very skilled at determining their own motivations, and solipsism/misandrism/latent feminism makes it even less likely your typical woman will have an informed view of what women want or how they themselves think. I don’t consider people like Thag, J or Hope to be typical.

    Combine that with the typical projection program of almost anyone giving advice to someone else, and you’re not going to get any good advice – no matter how well-intended it may be.

  27. Omnipitron says:

    “While I’ll listen to just about anyone, I truly pay attention to those who have my best interests at heart. I only care about the opinions of people who matter to me, which means embracing any constructive criticism offered and then adjusting my course. Likewise, I only care about attracting the type of man I want in my life, as opposed to trying to figure out what men in general want. I think some people get confused and waste time because they’re listening to/trying to appeal to a much larger demographic than is reasonable.”

    but the larger demographic is the largest and usually the most accepting in general. Do you see Dell Computer trying to market their products to 12 year olds or do you see them marketing them to their parents and/or students?

    Get it?

    If you follow the exceptions, there are a smaller group, and the ‘competition’ can sometimes get very heated. Just saying Octavia, it isn’t as if I haven’t had to attract a partner myself, but I will go to where the largest group is, not the smallest. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.

  28. Keoni Galt says:

    LMAO…I like Amy’s blog. I agree with her about 80% of the time. However, D, you called it on this one. Amy and her longtime regular commenter, lovelysoul do suffer from a severe case of projection and solipsism when it comes to the whole “older women’s attractiveness” debate.

    I had quite the dust up with lovelysoul and other women at Amy’s blog back in 2008…check it out here: http://www.advicegoddess.com/ag-column-archives/2008/07/tender-is-the-n.html

  29. I have read a good part of that advice goddess’ thread, and I find Amy Alkon’s comments quite strange. Half the time she is arguing that older women are hot, and the rest of the time that women want men who are more powerful than they are. There is something of an inconsistency there. She seems to be two different women. Some of her later comments, I had to check that she had in fact authored them. It was almost as if she switched off the bullshit as soon as Thag left.

  30. Thag Jones says:

    David, I noticed they started talking about face cream after I left. Back to the shallow end!

  31. Omnipitron says:

    “There is something of an inconsistency there. She seems to be two different women.”

    Hmm, I remember reading on Alte’s initial website that women tend to use whatever weapon necessary to win an argument, and if Logic no longer suits their purposes, they will discard it. I have to wonder if perhaps Amy chafed at Thag’s brutal honesty since it didn’t wasn’t assisting her in achieving her aim (or making her feel bad), but then changed her tune once Thag left?

  32. Oh, it was odd. I actually checked that Amy Alkon had really written some of the later comments. I don’t think it was just wanting to win the argument by whatever means, but almost as if her “hamster” only woke up when it was time to argue that older women are the bomb. I am unusually attracted to older women – which is just as well as my wife just turned 50 – but even I know that most older women cannot compete with the young ones. I once read that “nature is cruel to women”, only allowing them a year or so of peak beauty. I thought it was a harsh remark at the time, but I now suspect it is true. A woman of 20 can have an allure like no other. Even a woman who one knows will not age well, and is not basically attractive, can still look dewy and gorgeous at that age. But it doesn’t last.

    I cannot resist remarking on something funny I saw this morning. A reasonably attractive, 35ish blonde woman, with still quite a nice tall figure, and a really smug look. I was walking behind her, and it is wet here today, and she must have gotten her white pants soggy somehow, because everybody could see a little black triangle at the back, presumably her sexiest Friday thong. A little bit of water had turned her into a very whorish sight. There is something to be said for modest clothes, especially in women who are slightly past their peak.

  33. Omnipitron says:

    That does make sense David, her hamster had to wake up because she herself is an older woman and to admit that Thag was right would be to stare an ugly truth about herself right in the face.

    The sad thing, I can’t fault her for whatever she needs to keep herself sane, but to then give advice based on this falsity to younger women I think is a bit cruel.

  34. People, not just women, have a lot of trouble in seeing statistical truths. Of course, there are some hot 50 year old women, and some unbedworthy 20 year olds. But the general pattern is still observed.

    It is not just a problem with statistical truths. We all think we are exceptions to the rule. That we will beat the odds. That explains all the actors waiting on tables, the deluded writer hopefuls, research scientist hopefuls, artist hopefuls, sport hopefuls, and thirty-five year old women who think they can still marry a top man and have children.

  35. People, not just women, have a lot of trouble in seeing statistical truths.

    How many people are willing to admit that they’ve become old and ugly? I think in the case of some women, there is a hamster running around reinforcing the idea that they’re pretty and beautiful, but I think for some women, there’s an operating theory that even at a mature age, their personality and other non-physical traits will magically secure an alpha male in the future…

    That we will beat the odds.

    In contrast, when you meet people who think that they won’t beat the odds, you’ll some times find very depressing and boring individuals like myself…

  36. My previous comment would be better without the first sentence in the second paragraph.

    I think many denizens of the Manosphere are too obsessed with appearance. Of course a woman has other things to offer. My wife looks quite nice, for her age, but we also have a shared history, shared children, shared difficulties, interests and joys. These are valuable in themselves. Nevertheless, I had her too when she was young and nubile. She has matured. She has learned more of the art of life, although perhaps she has lost some of that youthful buoyancy which is so charming in an unaffected young woman.

    But some advisors of women overstate the value of “experience” and pretend that men do – or should – care very little about female appearance, or come to appreciate older women. But of course men prefer pretty young women.

    The real point is that a man will be happy, as I am, if he has had the thrill of sharing his youth with a young woman, and then has the same woman as his honoured companion as he ages and gains experience. What men object to, however, is having another man fulfill the first role, and then being expected to enjoy ONLY the pleasures of maturity with a woman whom he did not know when she was young. It is pretty insulting, not the least to his intelligence, to be told that her experience (with other men) should make her more attractive to him now that she is no longer nubile.

  37. Dalrock says:

    Well put David.

    I would add that the woman who finds herself on the market at a later age (with exceptions of course) very likely lacks the very maturity and character which along with shared experience would have compensated in her husband’s eyes for the flash of youthly beauty.

  38. Octavia says:

    Omnipitron: “If you follow the exceptions, there are a smaller group, and the ‘competition’ can sometimes get very heated. Just saying Octavia, it isn’t as if I haven’t had to attract a partner myself, but I will go to where the largest group is, not the smallest. That makes no sense to me whatsoever.”

    It doesn’t matter how large a demographic is, if I’m not interested in what that demographic actually has to offer. Some people spend their time trying to figure out how to cater to the [often nebulous] needs of too large a group. That’s not how I operate. That was the meaning of my statement.

  39. Omnipitron says:

    “It doesn’t matter how large a demographic is, if I’m not interested in what that demographic actually has to offer. Some people spend their time trying to figure out how to cater to the [often nebulous] needs of too large a group. That’s not how I operate. That was the meaning of my statement.”

    I got that, and your target market is still smaller. If that works for you then fine, but that does make things more difficult as the competition is generally going to be more intense, not less. As my High School health teacher had told us in class once, you can do anything you want to so long as you are willing to face the consequences, if a smaller group does indeed offer you more of what it is you are looking for, than have at it, but Oprah isn’t the huge maven that she is by catering to a small demographic now is she?

  40. Octavia says:

    Omnipitron: “I got that, and your target market is still smaller. If that works for you then fine, but that does make things more difficult as the competition is generally going to be more intense, not less. As my High School health teacher had told us in class once, you can do anything you want to so long as you are willing to face the consequences, if a smaller group does indeed offer you more of what it is you are looking for, than have at it, but Oprah isn’t the huge maven that she is by catering to a small demographic now is she?”

    Scenario: I want decent food. Any decent place will do. If I want great Japanese food, a great French restaurant will not do.

    Defining your target market is all part of properly managing your resources, of which time is an incredibly valuable one. When it comes to relationships, it would make no sense to be with someone who is the opposite of the type of person you want in your life. As for the amount and type of competition, it would depend on what I’m looking for in the first place.

  41. Omnipitron says:

    Octavia;

    Last post to you; your post about Japanese food makes sense…now let me qualify it for you. If you want Japanese food and you know that there are only 3 in your large metropolitan area, and you are willing to drive over hill and down dale and wait in line if perhaps this facility is busy, then by all means. The issue is that there are many women (and some men) who think that they should be able to grab as much food as they want from this Japanese restaurant no matter the ‘demographics’ of the amount of Japanese who live close to this restaurant who patronize this establishment, and accessibility to this venue.

    Let me tell you a truth about this. There is no secret society, which exists in which ‘converting’ you will give me some status. I don’t win a free toaster from Dalrock by trying to win you to my way of thinking. I’m giving you a free pass in teaching you how men think so you may get a little off your ‘high horse’ in terms of what you may believe in terms of female privilege. I’m already married, it doesn’t matter to me what it is you do with your life.

    “Regardless of all the advice given, a person can make very different choices from his/her peers that are still perfectly right for his/her needs.”

    This is a very interesting point but no matter what the person’s intimate desires or wants, it is always a good idea to at least see what the demographics lay out for you. This is why Demographics are such a great idea, as you will see that 80% of some group did such and such and ended up here, and 20% did such and such and ended up there. There is the rule and there are exceptions, it can be dangerous to confuse the two.

    RL example, my wife, who is white, is a little bigger than what a white man would typically want, but she got 90% of male attention from black men, like me. If she followed your advice she would have decided to follow white men and she wouldn’t be where she is right now…period. Sure there are women who are a little ‘bigger’ who meet and marry white men, but like I said, they tend to be the exception. All you will do is prove my point right, but trying to tell me that women can attempt to be the exception at a level which may not be considered as such…I and others will tell you that you are gambling with your life.

    It doesn’t matter what you believe, Dalrock has laid out what it is that men want in the aggregate, and this is why Demographics are of prime importance and why after all this time I’m trying to tell you about the truth of the situation. If you choose to listen or not, your business, not mine however, you cannot state that you weren’t warned as you where. Like I said, not many women know more about men than men do, but there are so many women who seem to want to argue about it though.

    That should tell you something.

    I didn’t make the rule, I’m just telling you about it and also telling you that no matter how you feel about it, it doesn’t amount to a hill of beans. Telling me or that Dalrock is wrong about this is like arguing with the sun about getting skin cancer. You can either stay out of the sun or slather on some lotion, but the Sun won’t hear a word you are saying.

    Get the point? I and others don’t care about your rebuttal, it really doesn’t matter.

    If you wait a little longer to marry and you find someone, good for you but you are the exception, NOT the rule. To talk about your situation like other women can achieve the same thing is cruel when men are telling women that this is not the case in reality.

  42. Pingback: Why we need to stop telling women to settle. | Dalrock

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