Gaming your wife.

One of the concerns which I hear with some regularity is why a man would marry only to need to “work” to game his wife.  I’m not an expert on game, so I generally avoid dispensing game advice.  There are plenty of other bloggers who are already filling this space, and I don’t feel the need to jump into that arena.  I would rather point you to those who really know what they are talking about.  With that in mind, I’ll take a shot at answering the basic question.  I’m not answering it as a game expert, but as a (greater) beta husband who has been married for 15 years and has only recently started formally learning anything about game.

Unless you have an arranged marriage or she is a conniving massive bitch, she fell in love with you and is attracted to the real you.  You don’t need to morph into a super alpha, you just need to avoid morphing into a sniveling beta and maybe dial up your natural alpha just a bit.  Unless being a sniveling beta is your natural and preferred state, avoiding that really shouldn’t be something that feels like work.  Guys don’t become sniveling betas because they want to or because it is who they are, they do it because they don’t understand and mistakenly listen to all of the messages of our feminized culture.

The foundation for her commitment to your marriage shouldn’t be your game.  If she is only one, or a few, or even 50 failed shit tests away from walking away from her sacred vow and/or whoring around, then she isn’t a wife, she is a whore.  Don’t marry a whore*.  Game should be about making you and your wife happier with your marriage, not about putting the sole onus for the success of the marriage on you.

Being a man is fun.  Enjoy it.  Then she can enjoy you being a man too.

Part of game is about understanding what makes you an attractive man.  Appreciate yourself (without getting a big head).  Being able to appreciate yourself will also allow you to appreciate what is great about your wife without becoming a sniveling beta.

Chances are a lot of game already comes naturally to you.  Even as a beta I realize that I have been doing much of what game would teach without really thinking about it.  As she has learned more about game, my wife has commented on this multiple times:  Wait, you have always done that. and  So that is why I like it when you do that. and  Hey, you just did it (used game) didn’t you? [Yeah, I guess I did.]

Hawaiian Libertarian describes game as being cocky funny.  You call that work?  Seriously?  I was born a smart ass.  Bring it on.

Shit happens, and shit tests happen.  It isn’t as if you are free from shit tests until you get married and then all of a sudden have to deal with them.  The only way you can avoid them is to avoid women and girls.  And even then maybe not with our feminized culture.  As with every other unavoidable aspect of life, you may as well learn how to handle them.

Her shit tests are her problem, not yours.  As a loving husband you want to help her with her problems, but don’t assign yourself responsibility for them.

Shit tests are an opportunity.  Pass them and good things are coming your way.  And even if they don’t come immediately, passing them is still more pleasant (for both of you) than failing them.

As you get better at handling shit tests, you should get fewer and fewer of them.

*If either of you struggle with the idea of judging men or women who cheat or walk away from their marriage without a legitimate cause, don’t marry.

This entry was posted in Finding a Spouse, Game, Manliness, Marriage. Bookmark the permalink.

60 Responses to Gaming your wife.

  1. Hope says:

    I still don’t think of it as “Game,” and I think of it as a man just being a masculine, confident and respectable man, not taking crap but also not dishing it unnecessarily, and simply leading with his calmness and doing things that he thinks are right.

    Having this internalized attitude is very important for a man in all areas of life. My husband does not readily take crap from anyone, because he has self-respect, and he will just walk away. He would not supplicate or debase himself to try to get better treatment.

    We just recently quit a group in which another married couple were treating him with flagrant disrespect, silencing him and generally trying to make themselves out to be “on top.” The wife of that couple yells at and abuses others as well. It was a clear demonstration to me, “Don’t be like that.”

  2. NYDude says:

    Ah! Following up on my comment! j/k

    The idea of naturally acting like a man is the way to go. And men are naturally as you describe them. Well at least that is how they are for me, from where I come from (Australia): cocky funny, willing to have a laugh, and not taking life too seriously.

    To put my earlier comment into perspective. I had said that the thought of gaming a potential wife every day for 20 years was not particularly appealing. But I am coming from a perspective of actually having learned game from an official teacher; meaning, using generic conversation starters, pick-up lines, and general, almost scientic/psychological methods that are known to build attraction with women. So in a sense, what I was saying was: “oh crap, you mean I have to tease my wife every day about her little baby ears; I have to go on website forums and wonder what I should say to my wife in every little situation?” No thanks. If you have to do that, you shouldn’t be getting married.

    Game is useful for very shy types, and to build confidence in men who perhaps missed out on a bit of schooling in their formative years; and lets face it, most guys do learn in one way or another what works for them in terms of building attraction in women. They did it in a normal fashion: trial and error, in context with their mates. So it’s a form of self-development and has long-term benefits, if used appropriately. But having to consciously use game techniques (like a beginner would), to start a relationship, and to keep it going, doesn’t sound optimal.

  3. Pol Mordreth says:

    NY Dude: “Game” in marriage is a little misleading. To me bloggers like Athol are starting from the assumption that at one time you were alpha enough to get the girl and get married. Unfortunately you bit too hard on the pervasive messages on how you are supposed to act once you are married, and went full beta. Thus, Game in marriage is more like retraining yourself to act like you did when you were dating.. usually a mix of alpha abd beta traits that signal both strength and provider ability.

    In other words, unless you were running hard game the whole time you were dating, you wont have to run hard game the entire marriage.

    Regards,
    Pol

  4. WP says:

    Thanks for this post.

    I dislike the rampant anti-marriage and anti-wife sentiment going around the man-sphere, this post is definitely something needed and appreciated from a guy who still wants to have kids in the future.

  5. she is a conniving massive bitch

    If you’re a beta, presume that she is a “conniving massive bitch”.

    The only way you can avoid them is to avoid women and girls.

    Maybe more men should avoid women.🙂

    I must admit that some of the more basic and cruder concepts in game do surface when I’m talking with female friends and co-workers, but it can be really exhausting mentally sometimes just to maintain the level needed to avoid failing shit tests. To somebody like myself, the idea that I need to engage in something that’s tiring in order to receive some degree of love from a female reduces the incentive to go out and engage with women on anything other than a platonic relationship.

    Her shit tests are her problem, not yours.

    It’s hard for me to agree with that since the husband is the one forced to undergo the tests in order to maintain his marriage. Given that repeated failure will lead to one seeing children only on the weekends, it’s in one’s best interest to treat the tests as your problem and prepare for them accordingly. I’d probably just curse at her until she cries and realizes that her tests are pathetic, but I suspect that will just simply make the divorce proceedings worse.

    Remember, It’s good to be the king! (NSFW)

    In a movie that’s funny, but in real life, it can come across as rather boorish and trashy…

  6. oneoftheguys says:

    ” you were alpha enough to get the girl and get married.”

    Yes, this is when you met your girlfriend once in a while. You were not with her every day. She saw you with your best clothes, with your best mood, in pleasant places. Playing alpha was easy back then because it is easy to play a role once in a while. But no actor can play a role 24/7.

    When you share most of your free time with a woman, when she sees you all your moments, the good and the bad, and not only when you are at your best, it is a whole different business.

  7. dalrock says:

    @David Alexander
    In a movie that’s funny, but in real life, it can come across as rather boorish and trashy…

    Unfortunately Mel Brooks doesn’t come off as manly as I recall. But the moves themselves are golden. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it!

  8. Don’t knock it till you’ve tried it!

    I actually touched Athena’s* breast once, and she wasn’t pleased. I’ll probably never do it again with anybody that isn’t a real romantic interest.

    *For those who don’t know, she’s a long-running platonic friend from work that I’ve mentioned at other blogs…

  9. Höllenhund says:

    Dalrock,

    what you state is bloody obvious and I agree with you. The problem is that masculine, confident, assertive, cocky funny men are becoming more and more rare, for reasons that are clear to all of us (the feminization and medicalization of boys in schools, feminist indoctrination etc.)

  10. Vincent Ignatius says:

    All girls need gaming, it’s just a matter of how a girl’s needs fit with a man’s natural game. If he needs to constantly think about gaming her, then the relationship is no good, but if he naturally passes her shit tests, then the relationship may last.

    I dislike the rampant anti-marriage and anti-wife sentiment going around the man-sphere, this post is definitely something needed and appreciated from a guy who still wants to have kids in the future.

    Do you do anything to try to change the laws that treat divorced and separated men as 2nd class citizens? If no, then you have no right to expect us to be pro-marriage.

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  12. SugarAndSpice says:

    The phrase “marriage takes work” is a cliche for a reason–because it’s true. As a wife, I work to keep myself thin, to defer to my husband even when I feel stubborn, to fix his lunch and cook dinner every day instead of getting lazy, etc. If a wife puts in the effort to stay submissive and attractive, then I don’t think it’s unreasonable for the husband to put in the effort to stay manly.

    The idea that a man should stay manly sounds odd and undesirable only because it contradicts what most of us have been taught. Since we’re Christian, my husband and I have been exposed to a lot of Christian marriage advice . . . and while it always pays lip service to the Biblical view of marriage (wife submissive, man as the head), it ends up telling the man to be completely cringing, supplicating, and passive. Books like “Love and Respect” and movies like “Fireproof” imply that loving one’s wife requires the man to accede to her every whim, constantly bring flowers, etc.

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  14. Anonymous Reader says:

    David Alexander, could you please answer two questions:

    1. How old are you / were you in these relationships?
    2. How old are the women / were the women in these relationships?

    If exact numbers are not to your liking, just provide ranges: “I was 28-32 and
    the women 25-28” or some such. That information is likely very important in the discussion.

  15. Anonymous Reader says:

    At least two definitions of “Game” are being used in this thread and one or more preceding ones. I believe that I see people talking past each other because of definition differences.

    Dalrock, Athol Kay and others appear to be assuming a definition of Game as a deliberate psychological technique/tactic to be used from time to time as the situation requires in order to maintain a certain status within marriage. It is something that specifically can be used to respond to a fitness test, or to recover from a failed fitness test by “bumping back” as Athol refers to it. “Game” is thus a mindset that a man may choose to deliberately put on, or it may be simply natural masculinity that has been recovered from the years of feminist hammering and abuse. But it isn’t something that a man has to “put on” the moment he wakes up and not “take off” until he goes to sleep.

    David Alexander appears to be using a definition of “Game” as something that a man has to do continuously, without ceasing, constantly, in order to deal with all fitness tests. Implicit in this is the assumption that failing a single fitness test will lead to being regarded with contempt by the woman in question, “friendzoned” / “betaized”. Therefore, to DA “Game” is a mask that a man must wear 24/7 in order to stay married, and one slip means disaster.

    That’s how I’m reading the texts written. Correction / expansion / discussion invited and welcomed. Flames, especially those with feminist shaming language, are already anticipated…

  16. SugarAndSpice says:

    “David Alexander appears to be using a definition of ‘Game’ as something that a man has to do continuously, without ceasing, constantly, in order to deal with all fitness tests.”

    Yes, there does seem to be an assumption among some people that gaming one’s wife requires constant vigilance. Under this view, a husband can never relax around his wife, can never just “be himself” and show his vulnerabilities.

    But based on my experience of marriage, I just don’t think that’s the case. The sort of “Game” needed while dating is more demanding than the “Game” needed to settle down, build a family, nest together. In a marriage, comfort and rapport are going to matter, not just the alpha traits. A woman may want to be “negged” pretty hard by a guy she just met at a club, but she won’t necessarily want to be “negged” by her husband while she’s, say, in labor with his child, or caring for her aging parents.

    I think Game in casual dating vs. Game in marriages is comparable to the value of a woman’s physical attractiveness in casual dating vs. marriage. A woman’s physical attractiveness is highly important in both situations, but when selecting a marriage partner, a man will also care about other traits–like whether she’s a good mother, thrifty, etc.–and he’ll understand that over the course of a 50-year marriage, she might not always look her best. Marriage and child-rearing require different traits than short-term mating.

  17. Anonymous Reader says:

    SugarAndSpice:
    Yes, there does seem to be an assumption among some people that gaming one’s wife requires constant vigilance. Under this view, a husband can never relax around his wife, can never just “be himself” and show his vulnerabilities.

    But based on my experience of marriage, I just don’t think that’s the case.

    How old are you?

  18. Pol Mordreth says:

    Sugar and Spice has some good points. In a long term marriage a man needs both alpha and greater beta traits, and more importantly needs to know when to apply each. Athol at MMSL shows a lot of the distinctions.

  19. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sugar and Spice has some good points. In a long term marriage a man needs both alpha and greater beta traits, and more importantly needs to know when to apply each. Athol at MMSL shows a lot of the distinctions.

    But it would be a useful data point to know how hold SugarAndSpice is. The reason for this should be obvious. Women over 40 grew up in a different culture than women under, say, 25. Therefore they see marriage differently.

    Therefore, men need to understand this difference.

  20. dalrock says:

    @ Anon Reader
    Women over 40 grew up in a different culture than women under, say, 25. Therefore they see marriage differently.

    I think that is a fair point. Cultural attitudes have clearly changed. But part of my premise is that a man shouldn’t marry a woman who doesn’t have the old view quite strongly. The force to honor her commitment has to come from within herself.

  21. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock, look at the larger picture. How many of the women who comment here are under 25? How many are over 40? Don’t you think that colors the way the women commenters see marriage, and men, and thus affect the advice they offer?

    That’s why I asked David Alexander for his approximate age and the approximate ages of the women he’s interacted with. Because if my guess is correct, he’s a younger man who is dealing with women under 30. So all the free advice that women here are giving him is irrelevant, because they are from a different time.

    Look, Athol Kay has been with the same woman for 20 years. His relationship needs a bump-back now and then, but the roles are pretty set, in part because of the time he and his wife grew up. A modern woman, even one that is nominally traditional, is going to be a whole lot more entitled. She’s unconsciously going to expect “what she deserves”, and that is a lot of things including Prince Charming or whatever the romance fiction pushes nowadays. So for at least a plurality of young women, any imperfection in a man means that he’s not “what she deserves”, and thus should be friendzoned & disposed of immediately, in order that she can go back out into the world and find the man “she deserves”.

    Consider what that means for Gaming her. There’s likely a vast difference between Gaming a 45 year old woman that one has been married to for 20 years, and a 25 year old entitled princess that one has been married to for a year. See why I’m asking about ages? It’s not just fishing. In my opinion, it matters, and it implies that the advice Susan Walsh and other post-menopausal women can offer is irrelevant to men under 30-35 years of age. Because women over 40 have no real idea what women under 25 are like. They might as well tell men “Just Be Yourself”…

  22. dalrock says:

    Anon Reader,

    I don’t think we are that far apart here. I’m not denying the problem, I’m saying game isn’t the solution to the problem you are describing. Game can make a good marriage better, but it can’t make a dishonest woman honest. If the strength of your game is what holds the marriage together, marriage makes no sense.

  23. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock:
    I don’t think we are that far apart here. I’m not denying the problem, I’m saying game isn’t the solution to the problem you are describing.

    Then what do you tell David Alexander? He says he doesn’t want to be in a marriage where he has to be “on” 24/7, where any failure to respond properly to a fitness test means doom, because it is sure to be stressful. Yet it appears that for a plurality of young women, that is exactly what would be required. Pointing to Athol Kay is not relevant to a man under 30, because the man under 30 isn’t interacting with a woman like Athol Kay’s wife. Do you see my point?

    Game can make a good marriage better, but it can’t make a dishonest woman honest. If the strength of your game is what holds the marriage together, marriage makes no sense.

    You are still missing the point. I’m suggesting that for women of the current cohort 20-30, a lack of tight game dooms the marriage, even for the “honest” women, because all of them have been taught they are special and deserve only the “best”, whatever that may mean in any given time. If I’m correct, then a significant percentage of fertile women are unfit for marriage, and they don’t go around with big scarlet “B’s” on their chests, either. Even the “traditional” ones could turn on a dime, because they’ve been taught to be entitled, special, princesses by the media, the public school system, the university/college they attend and very likely their mothers. Do you see the point, now?

    It’s a minefield. One false step and boom a man’s life is damaged.

    You are also missing the larger point: culture has shifted so much in the last 15 years, that life for men under 30 is unrecognizeable to anyone over 40. There are entire swaths of the social environment of the 20-something set that older people are incapable of recognizing. So advice from 50-something women to a 30-year old man on “how to handle a woman” is worse than useless, it is actually dangerous to him.

  24. Hope says:

    @Anonymous Reader, my husband and I are both 26, and married for a year. Personally, and I speak for myself only, I think the advice from the older crowd here has been extremely good.

  25. Pol Mordreth says:

    Well, Let me put in my stats. I’m late 30’s. Divorced, and remarried to a woman much younger (>10 yrs). Been married to her for 6+ yrs. I have a marriage very similar to Athol’s now that I occasionally bump back and take command when necessary. All I have to be is the man she dated, although I had to forcibly unlearn all the garbage that I had internalized about what women want after marriage.

    She hasn’t changed much from when we were dating. The minimal changes are directly attributable to that fact that we now have 2 small children together. These changes are normal. I changed within the context of the marriage because of my internalized belief that what women said they wanted was actually what they responded to. I am now occasionally aloof, bump back on the shit tests, but more importantly recognize when its a shit test and when its not.

    Anonymous, it would probably be helpful to know where you are living… Geographical area and urban vs rural make a huge difference in the woman’s outlook. Many of the suburban or rural women here in middle tennessee do not feel that they are a perfect special snowflake. That attitude is mostly in the urban women that have never had to do any real work or pay their own way very long.

    Regards,
    Pol

  26. dalrock says:

    @Anon Reader
    You are still missing the point. I’m suggesting that for women of the current cohort 20-30, a lack of tight game dooms the marriage, even for the “honest” women, because all of them have been taught they are special and deserve only the “best”, whatever that may mean in any given time.

    You and I have different definitions of an honest woman.

    If I’m correct, then a significant percentage of fertile women are unfit for marriage, and they don’t go around with big scarlet “B’s” on their chests, either.

    You are correct. Having the best game in the world doesn’t alter that fundamental fact.

  27. Hope says:

    I do agree that to a large extent, women who are in their early 20s nowadays are not suitable for marriage. I certainly wasn’t, and a large part of the reason was due to the toxic culture around me. Even though I grew up in a very sexually conservative country and then immigrated to the US, and I didn’t participate in the drinking, partying and hooking up, the entitlement complex of modern feminism still brainwashed me.

    Fortunately I had been exposed to less mainstream ideas online, for example the diamond cartel industry and the unfairness of the legal system toward men. Otherwise, I would be still blissfully oblivious and not too different from other women in my age cohort. I had made lots of mistakes in my teens and early 20s, and I agree that “game” would not have done much. I had some things going for me due to my my strict and disciplined upbringing, during which I was taught about hard work, saving instead of spending, and being healthy and sober. Still, if I hadn’t abandoned the poison that was fed to me, I would not be good marriage material — and I wasn’t.

  28. Anonymous Reader says:

    Hope, I’m happy for you and your husband, and wish you many joyful years together. If you ever have children, I beseech you to never forget that you are married to your husband, not to your children, no matter what your hormones may tell you. God willing, children grow up and move into the world while husband and wife remain together, but in the modern world of “attachment parenting” it is far too easy for a woman to make her children the center of her universe. In any event, it is clear that many men such as David Alexander are not encountering women like you. Whether that is an error on their part (looking in bars, etc.) or whether that is due to serious cultural changes that have made women such as you much more rare than in the past, or both of the above and more I can’t tell. But while it is useful to know that Not All Women Are Like That (NAWALT) it isn’t necessarily useful to young men, because women do not wear signs or come with warning labels concerning attitudes. And it is discouraging to the men your husband’s age to encounter materialistic, empowered grrlz on a regular basis.

    Pol Mordreth, since this isn’t about me, it doesn’t matter where I am. For the record, I’m generally in flyover country rather than the coastal areas, although I visited a couple of coastal megalopoli earlier this year. What troubles me is what I see and hear even in the nominally culturally conservative areas. I’m one of those men that tend to be invisible to women, unless I choose otherwise, and as a result more than once I’ve sat in some coffee shop near a college campus and had the privilege to listen to 20-something coeds talking about their lives. While there are some commonalities with college women when I was an undergraduate, there is a sense of entitlement that is still surprising me even though I’ve come to expect it. So it’s not just a coastal thing, although I’m sure it is much more prevalent in places such as DC, Boston, Seattle, etc. I’m not the first or last to note that Roissy is in the DC area, and thus his view of “typical” women is surely skewed to some extent.

    All of this is by the side. I’m trying to figure out the nature of David Alexanders situation, and the lack of facts is not helping. I’m also trying to point out that different people on this site seem to be using different definitions for words without spelling them out, starting with “married Game”.

    Dalrock, I’m afraid that you and I have very similar definitions of “honest woman”. I’ve seen church-going, openly Christian women who display the same entitlement princess attitude as their secular sisters. They don’t do it in as brazen a manner, to be sure, but if one is careful and listens & watches when no men are in sight (see above: “invisible”) the attitudes displayed among such women are stunning.

    If I were on the market again, I’d insist on a long courtship period before committing to marriage, and very likely a prenup agreement, regardless of the age of the woman in question. I’ve already changed the way I deal with women in some subtle ways using Game, and found it to be useful. Were I on the market again, I would seek to run very, very tight Game regardless of the woman in question. Because the attitudes that I see day after day among ordinary women are breathtaking, and not in a good way.

  29. Hope says:

    Thank you Anon Reader. I am in the 3rd trimester right now with our first child, a boy. I have read previously that a happy, stable family unit is absolutely great for a child’s development, and I fully intend to keep attending to my husband’s wants and needs.

    Incidentally, my husband was one of those men who “opted out,” and he was single for a long time, partially because he had not met any compatible woman (his IQ also places him above 98th percentile). Yes he played video games and used porn. This is normal among men my age, and it’s not too different from men a generation ago watching TV in their spare time.

    Although I have some good traits, I do recognize that I had a lot of baggage and flaws, and I would have been just like other women if I hadn’t had a certain kind of upbringing, or if I had been “normal” instead of an outcast. I am also “hypergamous” since I fell for my husband, who is more intelligent than me and rather masculine and dominant. I would agree with dalrock on this tendency for women to want the “best.”

    By the way I did receive a feminist education in college. It was too easy to get A’s in those courses as long as you wrote the “right” answers. But as I got older I started seeing the negative effects of feminism, and by the time I met my husband I basically washed myself of the influence, which I think has had a greatly stabilizing effect on our relationship from the beginning. He was brought up by a feminist mother, and he told me that although I have some things in common with her, he was glad I was not a feminist.

  30. Hermit says:

    Hey Dalrock, first time poster.

    I’ve been following you and The Spearhead and a few of their contriutors for a few months now, and I have to say I agree with you on the non-existent marriage strike. While you and others have made excellent arguments both ways, the two things that really made up my mind is a) all the data you’ve gone through, and b) recently I was reading on Vox Day’s site where he says
    “Now, it’s not necessary to overreact and decry all possibility of long-term relationships with women simply because the law is stacked in favor of them. That is the instinctive Gamma response and is no different than the way that they tend to exaggerate every Game concept to the point of parodic inutility.”

    I realized that many of the MRA’s are often former Deltas (Vox’s version of the calssification system) that got burned and moved into the Gamma-zone. As you mentioned, Gaming your wife properly will prevent getting burned, and men can avoid becoming a Gamma, avoid the divorce, therefore no need to even think of remarriage.

    There probably is a marriage strike, among Gammas. But they are a small set of all single men, they probably aren’t the pick of the litter anyways and it is many of them wouldn’t be getting remarried anyways, even if they wanted to.

    -D

  31. dalrock says:

    Hi Hermit,

    Welcome. I hadn’t seen that post from Vox (thanks). He makes some good points, but I wouldn’t criticize any man for deciding marriage isn’t a path he wants to take. I still advise it, but the legal and social deck really is stacked against men. Only the individual man can decide for himself if 1) He wants to marry. and 2) He has found a woman with the force within herself to keep her side of the agreement. There really should be no shame in a man deciding otherwise.

  32. Hermit says:

    -I’ve typed and deleted 3 different replies, and they’ve all come off as either too defensive or too aggressive. I completely agree with what you’re saying, but I think I failed to properly emphasize my point. It’s not so much whether a man should marry or not, it’s the type of man that would choose not to, and his reasons (stated or otherwise) for it. On the one hand, you have men who know the risks and potential benefits, and decide it’s not worth it. On the other, you have those that are pre-emptively rejecting women (the Gammas) that would likely reject them anyways, screaming from the rooftops that it’s their choice, not hers. Many of those that are most vocal about the strike, and claim to see it in the data, were never even in the marriage pool to begin with, and are projecting their views onto the data/others.

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  34. Jason says:

    she fell in love with you and is attracted to the real you.

    I can’t disagree more strongly and suggest that nothing is further from the truth. Athol Kay makes this same mistaken assumption. People don’t fall in love with the real other, but an idealized other. They also fall in love with the concept of falling in love, of marriage and of commitment. (This is especially true for religious couples and couples from highly structured families and subcultures.) We enter all relationships, perhaps all situations, with expectations that sometimes differ wildly from reality.

    I’m not talking one or both carrying on an active deception, but the consequence of simply not knowing ourselves or someone else perfectly. (Since most don’t fully understand themselves, this is to be expected.)

    In time, the idealized and actual tend to merge, but only if the ideal and the actual are close enough to do so. One of the weirdest things from my own marriage is that my wife complains how unromantic I am, yet I never was from the moment we met. I can be romantic, but it doesn’t come naturally to me. I not only never hid this about myself, I made sure she knew it. Yet it’s clear now that she still idealized this aspect of me (I can only suppose she thought I would change or something like that.)

    Having read much her and on Athol Kay’s blog, I think both of you make way too much of the game and similar things. In both cases, you obviously have very good wives who are willing to accommodate the dichotomy between the ideal and the real and accept you for who you are. (You both seem to believe that your cleverness is enhancing your relationship when in reality your good wives are just rolling their eyes and going along because they love you in spite of your ego trips, not because of them.)

  35. Jason:

    “You both seem to believe that your cleverness is enhancing your relationship when in reality your good wives are just rolling their eyes and going along because they love you in spite of your ego trips, not because of them.”

    I think you are making the mistake of thinking that women are cleverer than they are, wives included. I used to think that women had tremendous intutition, and would see through the foolish and knavish tricks of men, but it is increasingly clear that they do not. Women fall hard for the silliest things.

    Women, wives, are not that clever. Even when they know they are being “gamed”, they still respond. At least that is my experience.

    I have tried humble, and I have tried arrogant, and believe me “arrogant” works better.

  36. Jason says:

    David,

    I think you’re a condescending misogynist. I’ve read your postings at various blogs and indicate that you are quite narcissistic and have a highly abusive personality.

  37. Hope says:

    Jason, when people feel love they genuinely want to improve themselves, and be the “best” they can be for their beloved. “Game” is a version of this. I do want to please my husband and bring him joy and happiness, and he wants the same for me. Such intentions makes the “Game” somewhat the male equivalent of the girl learning to cook a new dish or dressing up prettily for her man.

    As far as the point you raise about male “ego trips,” I do think this is an endearing thing that my husband does. When he jokingly brags about himself, or when I tell him “you’re awesome” and he responds with “that’s right, I *am* awesome,” it’s not something I roll my eyes at, but makes me giggle. This is sort of the “cocky funny” part of Game, and it does work. I think very highly of my man, and perhaps some idealization does happen, but none of us lives in a black-and-white, completely objective reality. Subjectively speaking, isn’t it better that the wife admires and loves her husband and thinks he’s the best man in the world?

  38. Hope, I think that is expressed quite well.

  39. Pingback: Should you game your prospective wife into submission? | Dalrock

  40. Pingback: That way rationalization lies | Dalrock

  41. Jennifer says:

    Hope, what you describe is different from actual arrogance; Christians are called to have humility.

    Dalrock, YOU are the man who should be giving game advice. Hawaiin, Vox Day and Roissy are either too jaded about women or an arrogant jerk, and Athol really misfires sometimes. Men need to be manly, as you said, not supplicating, but the game community in many parts has largely just contributed more to the dishonesty and confusion between the sexes.

  42. natsufan says:

    I don’t see the need about being submissive that someone has stated before. You don’t need to be submissive. As long as you aren’t stubborn or bitchy, you can be assertive, and your husband will probably like you for that.

    My husband is an assertive man. He sometimes asks for advice or for my point of view. I ask him for advice and his point of view. There’s been about two times during the marriage in which I have stood my ground, and about the same in his case. Point is, we were right at the time.

    I will do what my husband says… when he’s right. He does what I say when I’m right. It’s not obedience, submission or betaization. It’s called two people talking, analyzing data and arriving to logical conclusions. I don’t see the need for submissiveness in a woman. I wouldn’t trust anyone (male or female) who wasn’t assertive enough to stand her ground when the situation required it.

    Then again, there’s a whole league of difference between assertive and aggressive. Aggressiveness is the death of love.

    I guess… I guess I am sorry to read some people have to “game” their wives. I just wonder what a shit test is.

  43. Anonymous Reader says:

    natsufan, if you do not know what a fitness test or “shit test” is, then you are very uninformed in terms of the topic being discussed. Perhaps you should read some more about “Game”?

  44. Nearly every husband knows what shit tests are. He may not have a name for them. But he has experienced them. Some men do speculate that women are unconscious of their use of shit tests. There may be some wives who never run them, I suppose. Mine certainly does.

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  48. Sky says:

    I think what you’re all angry at is not actually feminism as you keep saying, but actually just mean spirited women who are disrespectful to men whether they’re allowed to go to college and have a career or whether they are forced to stay at home and cook and clean. You’re talking about personalities, not a (actually very positive) movement like feminism. I’m a feminist and I long for a man who is strong and not a push over, but still kind and honest full stop. Try this- be honest from the bottom of your heart, tell her how amazing you really think she is, no game, just say what’s deep down in there that you mean with no fear- THAT will make her respect you because it will be exactly what her soul needs to hear and nothing is sexier than when a man gets REAL with you. If she’s a good person and she deserves to hear it, it will turn her to jelly. Just know that power games are rooted in fear and pride, she might be giving you ‘;shit tests’ because she’s afraid if you she shows you she’s too satisfied weith her you’ll take her for granted, or some girls just get off (as men do) on being in control. Again, pick the personality/values well in the first place and then you can relax a bit more down the track.

  49. Sky says:

    I’d also like to say that girls get taught to aim for the best because if they don’t men will walk all over them, use them, lie to them, get them pregnant and leave them, cheat on them… pretty much everything they do anyway. Can’t get angry at a girl (or parents) for trying to protect her, but I do agree some girls are not worth the effort. Let’s face it though, being a prick is not going to do the male species any favors.

  50. greenlander says:

    The hamster is strong in you, Sky.

  51. Brendan says:

    Laughable, but typical, advice from Sky here.

  52. Feminist Hater says:

    Feminism is a POWER GAME. Go F yourself you stupid fuckwit femcunt!

  53. Feminist Hater says:

    I’d also like to say that boys get taught to hate their masculinity from a early age so that women can walk all over them, use them, drug them, lie to them, get them hooked on child support, marry and divorce them and then leave them, taking the children and 50 % of everything the man has produced throughout his life plus a constant stream of wealth from the man to the ex-wife via child support and maintenance. Can’t get angry at a man (or the manosphere) for trying to protect all these men, but I do agree, some men (manginas/whiteknights) are not worth the effort. Let’s face it though, being a arrogan femcunt, bitch of a whore is not going to do the female of the species any favours.

  54. Pingback: Marital Fitness Testing 101: true confessions of a fitness-testing housewife | Sunshine Mary

  55. orion 2 says:

    On shittests:

    The only reason some men get this giant shittests that roll at them like a tidal wave WHILE being in a relationship is because they did not catch the small ones and they get progressively worse.

    Which is good!

    Because sooner or later you are bound to notice them, also good because she still wants you.

    So, while I have nothing to say on how to make a marriage work per se, here is my go to reaction to shittests, in that order:

    1) Squint eyes or raise eyebrow

    2) What !?!

    3) Tell her to stop. *

    4) Get her her coat and throw her out. **

    * if anyone read that as “ask”, please read again.
    * I realize that might not work in a marriage. Let her sleep on the couch.

    If you get an sms shortly afterwards or maybe a day later with an apology, or a thank you (yeah I know), or offer to throw some sexual favor in to make it all up to you (YEAH; I KNOW), you did it right.

    This whole cocky and funny, outwit her, and whatever else seems like a lot of work are only training wheels to display a certain attitude and once you have it you cab cut through all that noise.

    Protip: Watch a marathon of Charles Bronson westerns.

    After having done at least 5 hours, imagine the look he would have if some bar wench bitched about him not taking the trash out.

    Yeah, that squint.

    That attitude.

    I think that this is what Rollo means with internalization:

    NEO: So what’re you trying to tell me, that I can dodge bullets?

    MORPHEUS: No Neo, what I’m trying to tell you is that when you’re ready, you wont have to.

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/29/artificial-joy/

  56. Pingback: Is it possible to generate sexual attraction in a marriage where there has never been any? | Sunshine Mary

  57. Justinian says:

    Game is necessary in all areas of life. Everybody like to be on top of their game. Marriage is no different. You don’t just get married and think it will work with no effort. A good marriage takes effort and learning from people who have successful ones and are happy with everything. Its just the beginning after you say I do. If you truly love your wife and want to be with her, then it is worth the effort. Also if you do it correctly it doesn’t take much effort and can be fun.

  58. Pingback: The Types of Women in Church – A Primer | The Reinvention of Man

  59. For those not highly familiar with it, someone please define a typical shit test.
    I’m sure I’ve endured them, and maybe failed, but I’d like some clarification. Thanks.

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