I am a hunter. I haven’t actually hunted for several years, but like any addiction I am a hunter for life. Don’t get me wrong, hunting is a wonderful addiction. Some of my fondest memories are sitting perfectly still high in the Rockies with my black powder rifle half cocked, waiting for an Elk that never actually comes in range. We get up an hour before first light and silently hike a mile or more in the dark past the point where our trucks can’t take us. We set up as a team hoping this will be the morning. We care little about the weather except to select our clothing and ensure that we don’t get trapped in deep snow in the back-country. If we are lucky we at least hear a big bull across the meadow or over a ridge answering our infrequent calls. If we are really lucky we actually get to see them. Hearing them and seeing them makes our hearts pound and forces us to control our breathing. We recheck our lines of fire and the readiness of our primitive rifles. You may have heard a bull Elk bugle on TV. Or maybe you heard one at Estes Park or Rocky Mountain National Park in Colorado. If so (and you aren’t a hunter), you probably think you know the sound I’m describing. But that sound wouldn’t prepare you for the sound a crazed bull Elk makes when he thinks you are a rival bull and he is convinced he’s about to kick your ass and take your women. At less than 100 yards an infuriated bull elk can sound more like a raspy mountain lion roaring than a bugle. He’s the master of his domain, and he’s about to deliver a hell of a beating. Or so he thinks.
Sorry for the digression. Like I said it is an addiction. Maybe more accurately an obsession. Depending on what part of the country/world you live in, you may already fully understand this. And for most hunters once they start it becomes a year round activity. If you doubt this, note the number of men fishing in the cooler months wearing camouflage. My wife used to complain that there was always something in season. And she was right. From what little I’ve studied about Evo Psych, this shouldn’t be a surprise. Men were built to be hunters.
So what does this have to do with Pickup Artists? As natural as sex is, and as obviously important as it is from a selection perspective, it strikes me that the modern PUA is an extremely novel niche from an evolutionary perspective. I think even Citizen Renegade acknowledges that it is the strange intersection of our formerly patriarchal society with feminism which created this highly unusual situation. The fact that very few men are what CR would call “Alpha” would seem to reinforce this. Historically being “Alpha” by CR’s definition wasn’t a particularly effective strategy. Certainly there have always been “Sneaky F*ers”, but what is going on in the world of PUAs is orders of magnitude greater numbers wise than I would imagine a wildly successful Sneaky F*er would have been able to accomplish in the past. Do it too much and it stops being sneaky.
But reading CR and the comments section, it is clear that they feel an addictive pull to always bag that next quarry. They become obsessed with their quarry’s habits and movements. They learn to admire everything about it, just like a hunter does. If you’ve ever been in the field with a hunter one thing you know is they see all sorts of animals you would have been totally unaware of. I suspect the same happens for PUAs and their targets.
You could explain the PUA addiction as any generic addictive activity, and that probably would be sufficient. Certainly sex in any form is a powerful motivator. It appears that the modern PUA’s stable quarry the carousel rider becomes addicted to the activity without any parallel to hunting. Being prey isn’t a selected for trait. But as a fellow hunter, something strikes me as extremely familiar when PUAs describe their craft. The obsessive studying of prey, habits, and habitat. The simultaneous admiration of and mastery over the prey. The identification, the stalk, and the close. CR seems aware of this because his writings are liberally laced with hunting terms.
This is purely speculation on my part, but I’m guessing there is something to it. What do you think?
It’s the random payoff effect. Think addictive like gambling. It’s all Dopamine based neurologically.
I think there are a few posters at CR who are addicted to women–the hunt for them, the novelty of new women, the random payoff effect as Athol Kay says. The primary motivation seems to vary from man to man, but I see a strong addiction to bio-chemicals like dopamine, serotonin and oxytocin as a big part of what goes on with a few posters in particular. I think some others have various other issues, pychological or emotional that make it hard for them to stay in relationships. There are some that seem to have real trouble in attracting women or starting relationship. And there are some good guys too. 😉
But why are we wired this way? Still sounds like an evolved instinct for hunting to me. Good hunters and fishermen keep going out even when they haven’t had any luck for quite a while. They know eventually it will pay off.
Some have said it is also an adrenaline rush. Hunters get this, especially big game hunters. This is the meaning of the term “buck fever”. I’ve also seen studies from a state wildlife division warning about the increased heart attack risk to hunters immediately following taking a big game animal. They put much more stress on their bodies than they realize due to the adrenaline.
It’s just a risk reward mechanism that works for us. It’s not so much a “hunting” instinct, in fact compared to most predator species we pretty much suck as instinctive hunters. It’s a neurological payoff for risky behavior, whether that is “fake” risk like riding a roller coaster, or swimming with sharks our bodies can’t really tell it apart. Here comes the dopamine!
As far as our bodies know our risky behavior has the potential for big gains in resources / sexual opportunites. So there is an element of our own bodies baiting the hook to induce us to do something risky.
That risk isn’t always fighting, it can be an investment of time, effort or rescources.
Humans have to learn a lot about pretty much anything to be good at it, but that doesn’t mean we don’t have instincts for hunting. Many of the psychological differences between men and women are because of the differences between hunting and gathering. Spacial/navigational ability, comfort with silence, ability to maintain a high level of focus on one thing, all of these allow men to hunt. I think you could say the same with our fascination with gadgets, tools, and weapons.
And what evolutionary experience would a roller coaster ride or shark swimming most resemble if not hunting? Enjoying danger for danger’s sake isn’t a trait I could see positive selection for.
We know hunting was important to pre humans, because Neanderthals were built to survive the kind of beating required to take down big game close up. They paid a huge price in terms of calories needed just to survive. Cro-Magnon was able to achieve similar results with slighter builds because they designed stand off weapons.
“And what evolutionary experience would a roller coaster ride or shark swimming most resemble if not hunting?”
OK, but bear in mind that women also ride roller coasters and other fear inducers.
Absolutely. I think your hunting analogy is correct. You could follow this through in terms of hunting styles as well. Which PUAs go for the big-game shooting, who prefers horse n’ hounds, then there is clay-pigeon shooting and also of course deer stalking. The choice is often determined not so much on preference for the particular prey, but for the method of pursuit. There is definitely an addictive element involved with some of the PUAs.
PS: women often hunt too, but they tend to put their prey in zoos when caught rather than just consuming it & throwing away the bones.
Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts!
BTW, slightly off topic but on one of your CR comments you mentioned watching some drake mallards with the sun sparkling off of their heads. Since you described their beauty so naturally, my first take was you must be a hunter. But I’m pretty sure you aren’t. But many folks don’t know how much hunters admire what they hunt. My heart races every time I see a flock of geese or ducks on the horizon. Others who are with me don’t even notice them unless they are hunters too.
Good point. I certainly don’t have all the answers. I recall reading that African men are faster runners than European men because they have narrower hips, and that this was attributed to the need for European women to have wider hips for childbirth. Sometimes things are loosely connected even when generally separate. Height seems to work in a similar way. Men are taller than women, but I don’t think you can get really tall men without women getting taller along the way (even though they are still shorter than the men).
What strikes me the most is how mostly uninterested the larger Evo Psych community is in this. I think the bias against hunters as uneducated sister marrying rednecks is part of the issue.
One other example that came to mind; put a group of young boys together in any open space with stones and they instantly start throwing them. They throw for accuracy, distance, etc. And game over if they see a slingshot. They can’t help themselves. We seem to be born with a fascination with projectiles. Dogs chase balls, boys throw them.
If I’ve ever killed a duck, it’s only by making it fat on too much bread and sponge cake. There is a park near my home, where I used to play as a kid. It has a pond, with ducks and swans. I still feed the ducks there.
Watching them stick their heads in the water & their tails in the air never ceases to bring a smile to my face. I love seeing a flock of geese flying too, there is something magical about it.
If you hunt ducks, but still love their beauty, you need to see the film “the Shooting Party”, set in Edwardian England. Although it has quite a lot about ducks, and shooting, there is even more to it than that, it is about the end of a civilization & way of life.
There are lots of reasons I love this film, but one of them is that it has a kid in it, with a pet duck. I would have loved a pet duck and once tried to smuggle a duckling home from the park in my ballet suitcase (I went to ballet classes about 3 minutes’ walk away). However I ended up falling in to the pond instead (one of many occasions when my poor father had to fish me out). Probably just as well, we had no pond at home and the duckling would have had to live in the bath.
I did have a toy duckling by the way, but it was not quite the same.
Watching them stick their heads in the water & their tails in the air never ceases to bring a smile to my face.
Agreed. Even better is when the drake comes in with his wings down in that inherently unstable configuration, constantly adjusting to keep from flipping over. When he decides the place is safe he vents almost all of the air out of his wings and falls nearly straight down. Have you ever seen one do this? Maybe they only do this when they feel hunting pressure. It is really beautiful though. This may seem strange but I find animals to be much more fascinating when in a true wild setting vs when they want to bum food off of me. Basically they should either fear me or I should fear them. This is the truly natural state. Stumbling into a cow moose with a calf while navigating a beaver pond for example has a very specific feeling. You don’t have any misconception that you are in a petting zoo.
But with that said who doesn’t love to feed bread to ducks at the local pond! I’ll have to take my daughter to the local lake with some old bread so she can do this.
I love seeing a flock of geese flying too, there is something magical about it.
My first year duck/goose hunting I spent a lot of time laying on my back on the prairie just watching the snow geese fly over. They literally sparkled. They were really high up, so there was no question of hunting them. But they made my day nonetheless. I feel the same way about Sandhill Cranes when they migrate. The visual combined with their truly unique call is stunning.
Even better is when the drake comes in with his wings down in that inherently unstable configuration, constantly adjusting to keep from flipping over. When he decides the place is safe he vents almost all of the air out of his wings and falls nearly straight down
I think I’ve seen the duck dive you refer to. I’ve only ever known semi-tame ducks so it may not occur very often. I will keep an eye out. Snow geese are beautiful but my favorites are the baby cygnets, they are so gorgeous. The pictures of the ugly duckling do not do justice to them at all, they have such lovely grey fur and are so cute, much cuter even than ducklings. I adore drakes – the coloring is amazing, like those old dark green bottles they used to have.
D’uh.
The hunt is half the fun. Variety is the spice of life.
I also hunt, and the feeling is very similar, especially when it’s well-executed.
But I hunt with crossbows and compound bows, not guns, when I can. Much more interesting. It makes a good shot quite satisfying.
Anyway, with women, sometimes, one can make you settle.
Fascinating. Good to hear the thoughts from someone who has experienced both.
But you bow-hunting pansies have it easy! 🙂 You guys get a full month in the woods and can wear 100% camo. You have far fewer hunters to compete with and are much more likely to catch the Elk in full rut (much easier to call in a horny bull). Plus your shots are silent and you can take a follow-up one (if you don’t spook it by hitting something noisy). Us black powder guys get a week + a weekend, so everyone hits the woods at the same time spooking the Elk. We catch them in the rut during our week maybe once out of 3-5 years. We have to wear blaze orange and we only get one shot.
Where I hunt crossbows are only legal during standard rifle season, so they don’t tend to get used much.
@SD,
This is exactly true. Women put their prey in zoos. Males just keep them around for a while and then toss the remains. But when they keep one, they put it on a leash and refuse to part with it.
As you’ll see from my very first blog post, I’ve never liked the idea of a captive male.
Does the owner own the dog or does the dog own the owner? It’s a bit of a wagging tail situation.
Got to go. Happy hunting.
Pansies, eh?
Just because we get to lurk more effectively? And can shoot more than once?
I get to travel a lot. My next plan is moose hunting Canada, if I can arrange it. I’ve never hunted moose.
I packed my Vortex and brought it with me to Asia once. I impressed the tar out of a group of Mongolian bow-fanciers at a competition a long time ago. I didn’t come close to winning; the fact that I was there and signed up impressed them to no end. There was a pretty scary-amazing Russian guy there, too, who spoke perfect Mongolian and was a dead shot.
The competition didn’t allow crossbows. But they all wanted to play with it. One guy was so impressed he offered me an awesome set of 4 50+ year-old Russian rifles in exchange for it. I had no idea how to get them out of the country, though. One looked like it might have been valuable over here, WWII vintage, oiled and sweet.
BTW, there was a section of the contest that was horseback shooting; about 10% of the contestants were in this section. You had to see it. Unbelievable. I could easily imagine 10,000 of these simple farmer-guys bringing down empires.
Pansies, eh?
If I still lived in a Rocky Mountain state I’m sure I’d buy a nice compound bow and learn to use it. I always loved archery as a kid.
Black powder has a mystique of its own though too. I use a more traditional percussion cap Hawkin .54 cal replica with iron sights and real black powder (Goex ffg), not an in-line muzzle loader, scope, or that synthetic stuff. Nothing that wasn’t in common use by the 1830s. 435 grain conicals with a full powder charge put the hurt on both the shooter and the shootee (including the screaming bull in the post).
Good luck on getting a moose tag. That would be a blast. They are thick where we Elk hunt, but for some reason the guys actually hunting them never see them. I hated to answer one bowhunter who had been hunting the area for three weeks when he asked if we had seen any moose or sign of them. He had just set up camp in a nice empty spot. The same exact spot I had watched a moose trot through the day before. He didn’t believe me though.
You had to see it. Unbelievable. I could easily imagine 10,000 of these simple farmer-guys bringing down empires.
Ha! Like that could ever happen. On an unrelated note, a friend of mine from Pakistan has the last name of Khan. Weird, huh?
@Dalrock,
I can see the mystique of black powder. Your game is the real thing. I’m impressed.
My brother is huge into hunting, and has all the best modern equipment; he and I have sniping arguments with each other. It’s because of his HooRaa techno-soldiery that I insist on bows. I’ve got a sweet compound bow, 15 years old now and badly abused; and my Bear Takedown, which has amusingly never, in fact, taken down a bear (haha).
@SD
Slaves enslave heir owners on one level by their mere existence.
The owners need to live in fear of either loss or revolt.
So the absence of slavery in any form is always best.
The funny thing is success rates aren’t that different for different methods of take as I recall. We might actually have it easier than regular rifle hunters. I’ve hunted during rifle season, and it is a disaster. You and 10,000 of your best friends scaring all the game onto private land. So as long as you are following the rules, it is always a challenge. But the primitive methods have added character. Plus being in the woods in early fall is an amazing thing.
This is true.
I get to bring down a target after a week or more of work, maybe two. But for adding character, definitely.
And early fall in the woods is truly glorious.
I’ve been reading through your archives Dalrock and I definitely like what you’ve got going on, keep up the good work.
I love some good hunting. Nothing much like it. Plus, with my young age and free time I get to do some varmintin’ in the off season with my .17 HMR. But don’t even get me started on bass fishing…
Re: About PUAs
While I wouldn’t consider myself a PUA due to the baggage that title carries, I guess you could say I act like one and am more or less part of the community. To be completely honest it’s a lot about the hunt. But it’s a bit more complex than that, because I believe we men are all about the hunt. I will try to explain why it seems different for PUAs, at least how I see it, using a very imperfect analogy.
Hunters like you (and I mean this with no disrespect at all) have bagged THE BIGGEST BUCK. You went hunting before, may have bagged others, but this is the best one you have, a real record breaker, and you are absolutely happy you have gotten it and are content to stop hunting because no other “kill” will satisfy you like this one does.
Guys like me, we are addicted to the hunt in a way that differs. There will never be an endpoint, a point of full satisfaction if you will. We still go for the big ones, occasionally lower our standards and bag a small one, but I guess there is never a feeling of being content. To us, there are always more game to hunt. For some, it’s a numbers game, where the excitement comes from successfully bagging tons of game. For others, it’s always the search for trophy mounts, and only trophy mounts, but still, the accumulation of trophy mounts is the point- accumulations of THE BIGGEST BUCK I suppose. Guys like Roissy would most likely fit in the latter category- he’s a self-admitted romantic and has had many LTR’s- but he still never quits the hunt. Roosh would be the former it would seem, with the addition that he seeks the exotic game, big game hunter style. (I don’t know either personally, this is pure conjecture and if any of you two read this feel free to tell me I’m full of sh*t)
To most of us, you’re right, it is the thrill of the hunt, the mastery of the prey. But I don’t think that’s what has changed. Back in the day, before the internet and mass media, Game tips were likely shared within a small circle- like for example Ben Franklin’s letter about cougars. I am willing to bet most of these tips were shared in similar language and with the same methodology as hunting tips. But now, with the internet, it has only become apparent just how prevalent the always hunting mindset is among the lothario crowd.
As men, we are hunters. It just comes down to the way we view the hunt that seperates us- whether we want it to end or not. For those of us who desire to keep on hunting (and, once again, no disrespect to those that have chosen to hang up the shotgun) it is only advantageous to approach it in the language and manner of obsessive hunting.
Whew, that was long. I hoped I could help a little, although this ended up being a little disorganized as the thoughts began tumbling out. If this didn’t make any sense, I apologize.
Keep up the good writing Dalrock!