Frigidity and power.

With as much as has been written about the sex denial spreadsheet, one aspect I haven’t seen addressed is the issue of power and how the fear of losing power was a core motivating factor for the women involved.  This is evident with both the wife who published the spreadsheet and women’s responses as the spreadsheet went viral.  The wife who published the spreadsheet was horrified that:

  1. Her husband had blown through her attempted deception.
  2. As a result, he declared (and to a degree demonstrated) that she could no longer use fleeting promises of sex to hold power over him.

The original reddit post has been removed, but the text of her posting is copied all over the internet, including at Elle.com (emphasis mine):

Yesterday morning, while in a taxi on the way to the airport, Husband sends a message to my work email which is connected to my phone. He’s never done this, we always communicate in person or by text. I open it up, and it’s a sarcastic diatribe basically saying he won’t miss me for the 10 days I’m gone. Attached is a SPREADSHEET of all the times he has tried to initiate sex since June 1st, with a column for my “excuses”, using verbatim quotes of why I didn’t feel like having sex at that very moment. According to his ‘document’, we’ve only had sex 3 times in the last 7 weeks, out of 27 “attempts” on his part.

The wife was horrified that she had over played her hand in using sex to keep her husband firmly in her orbit.  She turned to the internet for soothing reassurance from team woman, but instead of a pure team woman response, solipsism kicked in and the women responding were more interested in distancing themselves from the image of a frigid, powerless wife than they were in punishing the bad man.

Women’s sexuality has always been a primary source of their power, but in our feminist culture this has been taken to the extreme.  We openly celebrate the epic power of the vagina:

It isn’t just secular culture chanting Hail to the V.  Modern Christians are as enthralled by the awesome power of the vagina as everyone else is.  As Dr. Mohler explains:

Put most bluntly, I believe that God means for a man to be civilized, directed, and stimulated toward marital faithfulness by the fact that his wife will freely give herself to him sexually only when he presents himself as worthy of her attention and desire.

This is the culture we live in, where everyone from feminists to the president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary is in awe of the world changing power between a woman’s legs.

Now imagine being the spreadsheet wife, who has suddenly realized that her V has lost its power through her own misuse.  In a fit of terror, hurt, and outrage, she turned to her sisters on the internet.  But instead of rallying around her, they were afraid that the disease could be catchy.  What if their V suddenly stopped working as well?

Scary Mommy responded to the viral spreadsheet story with an article titled Why You Should Say Yes Tonight:

…before we realize it, the no’s can add up into a long yoga pant drawstring of days and weeks. Months. Suddenly we are counting back on fingers, and toes…and with a sickening sense of worry, we can’t even remember the last time we had said YES to a roll in the hay.

And we worry even more that our husbands remember EXACTLY how long it’s been.

Or that they are keeping a log of our refusals, like this guy did.

While the spreadsheet method almost certainly failed for the frustrated beta who created it, he did manage to explode the denial around not only his own frigid wife’s refusal of sex, but that of frigid wives around the world.  The danger of this was immediately and viscerally evident to the women who read it, which is why solipsism kicked in where team woman was expected.  Instead of closing ranks to declare in unison that the husband was a bad man and wives don’t owe their husbands sex, the response was a half hearted attempt to shame the man back into submission, with the primary focus being on damage control to prevent the woman’s own V from losing its power.

The Frisky’s Jessica Wakeman opened her piece on the spreadsheet with the obligatory demonstration of team woman solidarity:

Last week, women reading the Internet collectively reached for their wallets to check how much cash they had, because there was a fellow lady out there who needed a drink.

Yet dispite weak efforts to demonstrate solidarity, the subtext of the whole piece is about how horrified now married Wakeman still is about the time when she overplayed her own hand with a boyfriend, causing her V to lose its power:

I have no idea why Ex-Mr. Jessica didn’t bring it up (he just sorted dumped me and washed his hands of our relationship), but looking back, I can see exactly what was happening on, why, and how it all went to shit

With all of the complaining about spreadsheet beta and how he should have communicated better, even more terrifying is the thought of a man who didn’t bother complaining, who simply lost interest in the ever more rationed V.

I did feel genuinely regretful that I didn’t give Ex-Mr. Jessica what he wanted in terms of our sex life because I never got the chance to even try to fix them. But he never brought them up to me until he broke up with me. I wish he had had the courage to talk to me.

The whole episode has been shocking for modern women, because while deep in their minds they always knew there was such a risk, they thought they had banished the risk by banishing the word used to describe it.  Yet even though the word frigid is now all but unspeakable, here was a wife who inadvertently warned the internet about the dangers of being frigid.  Frigid is such a powerful term, and is so hated by feminists, because it names the risk of losing sexual power by overplaying the control hand.

The problem for women is their sexual power can be difficult to effectively wield, especially now that our culture has abandoned lifelong marriage.  Women’s sexual power is fleeting, and only patriarchal marriage allows a woman to leverage her youthful sexual power to the power of a respected wife and mother and ultimately to the power of Yiayia.  But the fleeting nature of women’s sexual power is just one problem, it is also fragile.  Appearing available and eager for sex is essential for a woman to appear sexy.  Yet a woman who appears too eager, or more accurately eager for too many men, risks being labeled as a slut.  Sluts still have the power of being desired, but as everyone knows only a foolish man would fall in love with a slut.  Sluts are in this narrow (romantic) sense, unlovable.  Note how quickly being attractive went to being ugly.  On the other end of the spectrum is frigidity.  A wife who almost never wants to have sex with her husband is a terrible wife.  As with a slut, only a foolish man would (knowingly) fall in love with a frigid woman.  However, unlike the slut she isn’t even desirable.  A frigid wife is powerless, undesirable, and (romantically) unlovable.  This recognition is what so horrified women around the world when the spreadsheet went viral.

Feminists have done an incredible job in temporarily removing words like slut and frigid from our lexicon, but they won’t be able to banish them for good because of the realities behind the terms.  What we are seeing with the viral spreadsheet is the concept of frigidity working its way back into our thought process, even though the word itself is still forbidden.

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429 Responses to Frigidity and power.

  1. Pingback: Frigidity and power. | Manosphere.com

  2. Ras Al Ghul says:

    If they only understood how much power the have as a man’s faithful nympho cheer leader. The man would do anything for her.

  3. Good observation. You’ll note that Spreadsheet Woman even tried to protect herself from charges of frigidity in advance, by saying that he kept track of when she “didn’t feel like having sex at that very moment,” [my emphasis] and putting his “attempts” in irony quotes. So it’s not that she’s frigid or trying to control her husband with sex, oh no! It’s just that he had bad timing and that his “attempts” weren’t up to par. If he’d just tried harder, or asked at better times, she would have been a total sex beast for him, for sure.

  4. donalgraeme says:

    Even Charlie Brown will eventually figure out that Lucy is just going to pull the football away from him. So it is with men and frigid women. All of the power that they wield against us comes about because we want them. But if they make our lives miserable to the point that we no longer want them, then they have no power over us. The “Almighty V” is only mighty so long as men bow before it- once worship ceases its power ceases as well.

  5. donalgraeme says:

    If they only understood how much power the have as a man’s faithful nympho cheer leader. The man would do anything for her.

    Ras, you are right on the mark. But women (most of them anyways) don’t want that. The interesting question is why. Is it because they don’t understand cause and effect well? Or is it because they would rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven?

  6. okrahead says:

    One thing that stands out about spreadsheet wife is that she is 26, has been married three years, and has no children. The power to withhold sex is only 1/2 of the power of the V; the other 1/2 is the power of a faithless woman to take the children she has borne to a man out of his life via the “family” courts. Spreadsheet wife not only lost power by withholding to long, she also lost power due to never having borne her husband a child. I expect Yiayia has at least twelve children.
    Another thing… If spreadsheet wife is 26, married three years, has no children, is concentrating on her career (10 day business trip), and material possessions (refurbishing house) then, given our current culture, she is almost certainly using HBC… which has a devastating effect on a woman’s libido. The very pill which we were told would give women the power to enjoy unfettered sex has in many cases completely removed women’s ability to enjoy sex at all. Such women are, however, apparently completely immune to irony.

  7. Dalrock says:

    @Cail

    You’ll note that Spreadsheet Woman even tried to protect herself from charges of frigidity in advance, by saying that he kept track of when she “didn’t feel like having sex at that very moment,” [my emphasis] and putting his “attempts” in irony quotes. So it’s not that she’s frigid or trying to control her husband with sex, oh no! It’s just that he had bad timing and that his “attempts” weren’t up to par. If he’d just tried harder, or asked at better times, she would have been a total sex beast for him, for sure.

    Excellent point. Elsewhere in her reddit post she wrote:

    It’s not normal. For the most part of our relationship, we averaged 3-5 times a week I’d say? Including a non-reciprocated blowjob thrown in here and there.

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  9. In other words, when she was trying to snag his commitment, and probably for a while afterwards so it wouldn’t be obvious, she made sure he was properly sated. (That also proves that she does know how much sex he wants.) Then she did the standard thing of taking over the relationship by gradually cutting him back to once every couple weeks. It’s such a common theme that comediennes joke about it.

    Far from making it better, that makes it worse. I’d have some sympathy for a woman who honestly has an aversion to sex (though I’d have more sympathy for her husband). But she’s admitting here that she likes sex just fine, but she likes power better.

  10. Opus says:

    Dalrock enjoyed my ‘slut’ moment. I also have a ‘frigid’ moment.

    A woman I know who is generally rated a strong 9 (nor is that an exaggeration – she does not however do that much for me; I was linked romantically with her sleazy dope-smoking friend) and who used her looks wisely so as to lock-down a Medical Doctor, used to prick-tease mercilessly leaving men including those who had taken vows of celibacy with their tongues hanging out. I had made an off-hand throw-away comment to someone as to her prick-teasing and somehow it got back to her. The next day (God knows how she found my number – I surely did not give it to her) I receive a call whilst at work. For thirty seconds I endured her screaming down the phone at me about how dare I call her Frigid. She eventually convinced herself that she had been misinformed as to what I had said.

    I wonder which would have caused her more distress: the allegation of frigidity or that of sluttery. Some women are just not into sex and we should not mock them for that. I was wrong in my call; she was merely utilising her V for Hypergamous purposes; yet I rather suspect that manipulating men, continues to give her more satisfaction than sexual intercourse with her Beta husband.

    Yesterday I was at the Barbecue. This was the conversation:

    Hot Totty with mini-skirt and three inch heels: Do you want to kiss me?
    Opus: No.

    I am now back in favour.

  11. bluedog says:

    This article is a good example of why I tell others, ostensibly on “the other side of the fence” that they need to read Dalrock and practice “listening” – despite disagreements with Dalrock they and I are likely to share. “You could just think of them all as misogynists and dismiss them out of hand, or you could assume decency until you have evidence otherwise, and pay special attention to the ones who are fathers, family men, and who care about their families and others, and who really think about this a lot and who have a perspective that might be decisive as far as how this turns out.”
    As to folks on “this side of the fence”, IMO, the most important statement in this article is this, “The problem for women is their sexual power can be difficult to effectively wield, especially now that our culture has abandoned lifelong marriage.”

    “Or what king, when he sets out to meet another king in battle, will not first sit down and consider whether he is strong enough with ten thousand men to encounter the one coming against him with twenty thousand? Or else, while the other is still far away, he sends [o]a delegation and asks for terms of peace.” Luke, 14:31-32

    Words of Jesus. Could as easily be those of Sun Tzu.

  12. Splashman says:

    Ras, you are right on the mark. But women (most of them anyways) don’t want that. The interesting question is why. Is it because they don’t understand cause and effect well? Or is it because they would rather reign in Hell than serve in Heaven?

    It’s because feminists have convinced them that the only power worth having is male-type power.

  13. Philalethes says:

    2,500 years ago the Buddha said:

    As long as the last underbrush
    of a man’s desire for woman
    has not been not cleared away,
    his mind remains in bondage,
    like a suckling calf
    following its mother.

    Dhammapada, verse 284

  14. Splashman says:

    Spreadsheet wife:

    It’s not normal. For the most part of our relationship, we averaged 3-5 times a week I’d say? Including a non-reciprocated blowjob thrown in here and there.

    That’s her side of the story. Anybody here want to give odds on her estimate being within a mile of truth? If “3-5 times a week” were ever the case (and that’s a big if), I’ll put big money on it only in the first few months, not “for the most part” of their relationship.

  15. I wonder how wives would feel if their husband only went out to earn money when he felt like it.

  16. S. Chan says:

    Are you you are using the term “frigid” correctly? My dictionary gives the definition “Usu. of a woman: unable to achieve orgasm”. Another definition is here:

    http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/frigid

    A woman could be unable to either achieve orgasm or get sexually aroused, and yet still have sex with her husband whenever her husband wants.

  17. Splashman says:

    S. Chan, you might want to check a few more sources. Here’s what my dictionary says:

    a) (esp. of a woman) unable or unwilling to be sexually aroused and responsive.
    b) showing no friendliness or enthusiasm; stiff or formal in behavior or style

    But regardless, Dalrock is using “frigid” correctly, because he is assigning it the same meaning that most of American society does.

  18. gmg says:

    Great post as always, Dalrock. Thanks for everything you do. I’m anticipating the future comments on this post from the great group of posters on this blog who always keep my coming back.

  19. Robert What? says:

    On a tangential note, that is also why feminists are so down on legalizing prostitution. They pretend that they care about the women involved with it, but we all know that is a crock. The real reason is because prostitution takes a lot of the power away from the wife. The husband would be able to get the sex and affection that the wife denies him. (Speaking as a married man myself who spent a very long time in the desert.)

  20. greyghost says:

    26, has been married three years, and has no children.

    You’ve got to be shittin me. No hostages?! That lady is stupid. He should drop that woman right now or yesterday or the second time she said no. In fact she should be sleeping naked so when he gets up with the morning hard on he has a ready spot for it. I would bring a girl friend to the house right in front of her. A woman with out kids (his) is just a piece of tail to stick a penis in at your leisure. Ask any woman to show what they do for a man or what they should do for a man and in the end she will let you it is nothing.(stick a penis in it) I wish I could talk to that guy. I wasn’t paying full attention, no kids and she tried that shit. A childless woman that lives with a man married or not uses all of her openings hands and feet pleasuring her man or she is living on her own.
    Yeah Dalrock you are right she sure did over play that hand. There is no way a childless woman should even think she can try that with any man.

  21. greyghost says:

    Opus

    she was merely utilising her V for Hypergamous purposes; yet I rather suspect that manipulating men, continues to give her more satisfaction than sexual intercourse with her Beta husband.

    This is it in a nut shell. A few simple changes in the law and presto power comes from a sexually satisfied husband. For it get around that she is frigid or just a cock tease would jack her girl game big time. Disney is having trouble selling the princess now because little girls want to be known as “hot” Purity isn’t selling to the boys they want. Douche baggery influencing culture.

  22. bicklerain says:

    greyghost,

    What about the alimony issue?

  23. Robert is absolutely right in his post above.

    God created men to be the more aggressive of the genders, and many women know this and capitalize on it. How do most men feel after sex? They roll over and go to sleep, or at least make it known that they don’t wanna be pawed and hung all over by the female. A man with his hormones on a leash, or a man like me who is asexual, is similar to that, and as such he poses a fascinating threat. It’s like that nature video of the curious bird who gets closer and closer to the snake.

    Oh, and then there’s this:

    “Put most bluntly, I believe that God means for a man to be civilized, directed, and stimulated toward marital faithfulness by the fact that his wife will freely give herself to him sexually only when he presents himself as worthy of her attention and desire.”

    My word, who or what ordained this man?

  24. Ras Al Ghul says:

    “It’s because feminists have convinced them that the only power worth having is male-type power.”

    Who has the greater power? The one that can do anything, or the one that merely has to ask and it will be done? The D’jinn or the lamp holder?

  25. Tilikum says:

    the internet and men talking to each other has ruined Feminism.

    the decision has been made, the ladies just haven’t had it explained to them yet.

  26. Ang Aamer says:

    Bravo Dalrock
    I would like to say that I think you have been carrying the best constructive debate about “Spreadsheet Guy”.

    TOO MANY TIMES the Blog-o-insta-pundits fit any new event into their internal logic structure and voila “I blogged about this X times” (you know like the Elliot thing)… But The Spreadsheet has pierced into the Male-Female consciousness like no other meme I have seen recently. This is NEW.

    I have seen this in my own life… my wife after a lukewarm refusal to consider coitus… teasingly said “you can put ‘not feelin it’ in your spreadsheet’. But to be truthful I saw the doubt in her eyes that said “I hope you aren’t recording my answers… really”. Women are nervous about this concept of keeping an accounting… women are bad at math and if men come up with objective data… the V rationing game may be up.

    The Spreadsheet IS NEW… Because every man realizes he could be or has been Spreadsheet Guy. ALL men have been played by women’s sexual rationing… ALL MEN. This guy just recorded it… in nice row column format.

    But, I must take issue with the blind assertion of negative outcome for Spreadsheet Guy. We don’t know and will never know pending a news investigation of how this worked out for him.
    Personally I think it is working out VERY WELL for him. Most men go through life in quiet suffering of their circumstance. But THIS GUY he changed things! Not only did he confront his 26 yo frigid wife with reality… SHE was prompted to post this on the internet AND got some feedback… AND that feedback reminded her of a few things:
    -She’s 26
    -She’s married
    -She’s has a husband who wants to have sex with her
    -And only women OVER FORTY were taking her side

    No doubt it was because the under 30 crowd was furiously looking for a way to find out where Spreadsheet Guy lived!!!! Because:
    -He’s 26
    -He can commit because he married her
    -He wants to have sex more than 2 times a month
    -And GUYS WHO CREATE SPREADSHEETS MAKE MONEY HONEY!!!

    All Hail Spreadsheet Guy! I think he has done ALL MEN a great service indeed.

  27. 1kingofkings says:

    Well now, wasn’t that a bunch of huge leaps of ideas ! First and foremost, men must understand how the construct of female sexuality was set up. It was not the feminists who created the “frigid wife” it is and was male domination over female sexuality that has done that. How you say ? Well, when you divide a female into two camps such as in the Madonna / whore complex, you will always come up the Madonna like “Mary – mother child worship” ‘good woman’ who men want to marry, verses the “slut or whore”who enjoys sexuality and men enjoy having sex with. Hmmmm. How do you reconcile his dichotomy ? 
    How you think this came to be? Feminism? No. Maybe, it has a little bit to do with male-dominated social constructs that start very young. When I was a little girl, I remember any girl that had sex with the boy was called, a “slut and a whore” she was repudiated, she was isolated, and she had no friends. She was called a dirty girl by males and females alike only worthy of being thrown away like a used piece of gum. She was ugly inside and Boys would use her. She was everything a female NEVER wanted to be!!!! For reputation was everything and 
    Sex =Evil for us!!!! Run !! quick and get away from that- nobody wanted a part of that !!
    So as young girls, we are taught that sex is dirty, it’s ugly, it’s to be frowned on and avoided all costs, if you wanted to be taken seriously as a female contender in a long term relationship. If you actually liked sex or explored your female sexuality freely as man, you are a slut or a whore. 
    So, Now let’s go back to the young men who were having sex with these females. What is it to them if they have sex? Are they repudiated? put down or said they’re bad or isolated and socially shunned? No!! The ones who have sex get trophies, put notches on their belts, and are cheered all the way by other males, with impunity. All the males who are having sex with the women are studs and masculine and free sexually. Women are NOT FREE SEXUALLY. Who are these boys having sex with? Why did the boys get free passes but the women get ill treatment and are repudiated? And when these same females grow up get married, and then as if the light switch turned on, all of a sudden are expected to become freely hypersexual enjoying all of it even though there told it’s dirty evil and bad!! Somethings are hard to change in people especially when they’re trained in a certain way. Men now want their wives to be sexual, why do you think that they are not? And why do you think it’s a female’s fault for being trained NOT to have sex or even ENJOY their bodies.? For Some reason men don’t think the whole story through. Interestingly enough, I enjoyed my sexuality when I was young and I was the one who was repudiated and hated and shunned and told I was dirty and a whore and a slut, but I felt I was just as good as a man to enjoy my sexuality. Because of that, I still enjoy sex and my body today. I saw this growing up time abd again how damaged my friends were because they just couldn’t stand up to the ridicule . The costs outweigh the benefits. They wanted to be a good girl in the eyes of men and women at all costs. I also see it in the way females talk today. Once you’re trained to be a certain way, you stay with that way as you grow up -it’s like learning a language, it becomes more difficult as you age to learn something new. Don’t believe for a moment that this isn’t something that’s already “set up by the males themselves” – they shoot themselves in the foot by what they create and turn around and blame the female for the problem. It is they who started it in the first place !!! Lol. You want a different female, you better stop “slut shaming” her when she wants to enjoy sex. THIS IS WHERE FEMINISM wants to take females- to a safer place to change her past, so that the future wives have a greater “permission” to be free to enjoy her body and have sexual pleasure just as a man. It appears like it’s about power on her side, but it’s not. She just doesn’t like sex, and for a perfectly good reason.

  28. jf12 says:

    re: Mr. Jessica, “I wish he had had the courage to [...] me.”

    I am disagreeing with the sub-premise of the post, reluctantly, it’s not just about power. Although women do indeed, (boy do they!) enjoy the power of the V, by which I mean like your post: the power of the NO! Not Tonight!, that power is not just for power’s sake. The power of No! is the power to hurt the man. That is what women do not want exposed: the fact that they *know* they are hurting the man they profess to love. That is why they do NOT want actual calendars: they can plausibly deny “I don’t think it’s really been that long” even while tittering behind their hands. They enjoy making men suffer, but do not enjoy it exposed. Slut-shaming doesn’t hold a candle to sadist-shaming.

  29. jf12 says:

    @Philatheles re: Buddha quote.

    And women know it.

  30. ballista74 says:

    My word, who or what ordained this man?

    He’s a Southern Baptist. Albert Mohler exists as a perfect demonstration about how feminism pervades every church. More over, he is a great illustration that there is no church or denomination too “conservative” for feminism.

  31. jf12 says:

    @donalgraeme re: “The interesting question is why.”

    Freud’s answer was penis envy, which is clear enough. But it’s more like libido envy. If women had drastically higher libidos, obviously they wouldn’t be turning their husbands down. Women are jealous of men’s libidos, so they try to cut us down by making us suffer for having what they want.

  32. cynthia says:

    @splashman

    It’s because feminists have convinced them that the only power worth having is male-type power.

    Indeed. If I was a cynical woman, I’d say this is one of the major, unacknowledged problems with feminism. In seeking influence in male-oriented power structures, women have abandoned the female-oriented ones. Most women are physically and psychologically incapable, however, of wielding masculine power, and thus, find themselves with nothing. We’re actually making things worse by doing so.

    I think the problem might go back to the perception that the traditional female power levers of covert manipulation and sexual influence are unethical. Perhaps they are. Or perhaps the old rules of chastity and demure bearing were the female equivalent of chivalry, in which women were encouraged not to use their power to hurt others.

  33. I don’t think it’s really been that long”

    Thankfully this problem went away with time and age, but when I had this problem, My favorite one was always when id say, with dates, its been X days….and she’d respond, not really, of those 25 days you were out of town for 8 and I was on my period for 5, and a couple other days dismissed for some trivial thing and REALLY its only been 7 days dude.

    Id shake my head and ask her how many days older we were today than the day we last had sex.
    Im not sure she ever got past this rationale, the issue went away but if it came back we’d still be calling a month a week.

  34. Speaking of Mohler, saw a tweet Saturday where he said in one hour he would be speaking to 000′s of couples at a Chicago I Still Do conference.
    Counselors and Lawyers take note

  35. “On the other end of the spectrum is frigidity. A wife who almost never wants to have sex with her husband is a terrible wife. As with a slut, only a foolish man would (knowingly) fall in love with a frigid woman. However, unlike the slut she isn’t even desirable. A frigid wife is powerless, undesirable, and (romantically) unlovable. This recognition is what so horrified women around the world when the spreadsheet went viral…..The problem for women is their sexual power can be difficult to effectively wield, especially now that our culture has abandoned lifelong marriage….”

    A frigid wife can quite easily be “desirable.” Indeed, that is kinda the point, no? That the husband desires her, but she says no. Nor is she “powerless.” Again, quite the contrary, because, even in a brief, childless marriage, there is a huge cost to divorce (for the man), and by saying no she keeps him constantly trying to work his way into her good graces. He might try everything and anything to get her to say yes….presents, giving in on various disputes, whatever. He remains the “suitor” and she the prize. Even though they are legally man and wife. A man might or might not “love” his frigid wife. But that is not really the point.

    The point is that the wife uses sex as a weapon. Even in a relatively short lived, childless marriage, a man will hesitate to simply cut his losses and divorce a frigid wife. Perhaps he remembers that she use to be “into” sex with him, before they were married, or in the honeymoon period, and hopes to “re kindle” those feelings. Perhaps he lacks confidence in his ability (for good reason or otherwise) to find another mate should he “dump” her. Perhaps he views divorce as a shameful failure. Maybe he doesn’t want to face his and her family. Maybe he was warned about her and now fears the endless “I told you so’s.” There might be religious reasons as well. And, of course, even in a short, childless marriage, the financial costs of divorce can be severe (for the man). Not to mention the emotional turmoil. Men actually have a lot of reasons to try and “tough out” a frigid wife situation. And thus the frigidity card is actually NOT all that hard to use, despite the prevalence of divorce. After all, plenty of men don’t get divorced. And it is hardly the case that they are all happy!

    Women are simply in the cat bird sense, in this regard. They call the shots. They can say no to sex as often as they please. Wives are NOT required, legally, in most jurisdictions, to provide their husbands with sex. And they sure ain’t required to do so culturally or socially either. Indeed, the wife who says no is pretty much an iconic figure, in some circles. Some women, perhaps, use the weapon sparingly, and only withhold sex from the man when, arguably, he deserves it (as the Southern Baptists quoted in the article claim is the norm), but many use it much more often, and much less justifiably. Sex is where the rubber hits the road, so to speak. Men don’t actually care all that much about house cleaning and cooking and so forth. If a wife “puts out,” and does so regularly and enthusiastically, most guys really couldn’t give a damn if they are eating take out six nights a week or the marital domicile is not up to Good Housekeeping standards. Nor are they likely to pay much attention to the Little Woman’s complaints. Take sex away, though, and you have a man’s attention. Again, some men, perhaps, need to have their attention drawn to certain things, but the weapon is there to be used in any case, justified or not.

    What horrified women on the web was (1) the clinical, unanswerable nature of the spreadsheet evidence, and (2) the fact that this one guy, at least, has decided not to take it anymore, and divorce consequences be damned.

    “Women’s sexual power is fleeting, and only patriarchal marriage allows a woman to leverage her youthful sexual power to the power of a respected wife and mother…..”

    Actually, real “patriarchal marriage” (as opposed to the internet, “I’m a ‘patriarch’ cuz my wife lets me be one,” version of it) denies women any power at all. In a real patriarchy, a man obtains a wife (perhaps one of many) from the father of a young woman (patriarch more or less means “father”). A woman’s sexual power is thus neutered, or is turned to her father’s advantage. The father of a very beautiful woman may be able to get something of value in return for giving her to a prospective husband. Or, he can choose the most successful and highest status of her suitors to be the husband, who then becomes his kinsman. After the marriage it is up to her new master to determine just how respect the wife is given. She can easily remain the least favored wife, and her sexual power has very little to do with her relative status. Yes, having kids, particularly sons, will gain her some respect. But she can’t “leverage” her sexual desirability, because she is compelled to have sex with her husband whenever he damn well feels like it, barring only certain customary restrictions (such as, perhaps, during her period).

    Really, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t call an institution “patriarchal” and then pretend that women have “power” under that institution. Marriage least of all, as, in the patriarchal version of it, marriage extinguished pretty much all of a woman’s rights (a single or widowed woman actually had more rights than a married woman), and made her a ward of her husband (under the most generous interpretation of her status).

  36. James K says:

    This is really a younger person’s perspective. When you get past a certain age, you find that women are more horny than men. Whether this effect is biological, or whether the woman with fading looks needs sex for personal validation, I don’t know.

    However, the frigid woman, and the woman who has feigned frigidity in order to control her husband, have a nasty shock in store: he has learned to live without sex. When her looks have faded, and she decides that she wants sex after all, he’d rather drink a couple of beers and watch a game.

  37. ballista74 says:

    Speaking of Mohler, saw a tweet Saturday where he said in one hour he would be speaking to 000’s of couples at a Chicago I Still Do conference.
    Counselors and Lawyers take note

    Do divorce lawyers “ambulance-chase”? I’m not really sure, but if they aren’t already, hanging around appearances of people like Albert Mohler probably would be “smart for business”. I’m sure they’re clever enough that they already figured that out.

    Of course, the divorce industry doesn’t care what they do to marriages/lives as long as the money keeps rolling in.

  38. BobH says:

    @jf12, 3-Aug-2014 5:17 pm – Spot on. I agree that the woman’s sadism vis-a-vis denying the man that she claims to love gives them pleasure.

  39. blurkel says:

    “Anybody here want to give odds on her estimate being within a mile of truth?”

    I can attest to this feminine misimpression. My wife once claimed that we’d had sex every week for months. I told her exactly how many times we’d actually had sex that year by date. I’d been keeping track because I wanted to be precise when I confronted her about my feeling deprived.

    Not that it did any good. Gradually over time, sex has become once-a-calendar-quarter, whether I need it or not. But at lest she no longer makes claims she can’t prove.

  40. John says:

    “If they only understood how much power the have as a man’s faithful nympho cheer leader. The man would do anything for her.”

    See the problem with this type of thinking is one a lot of men fall into the trap of. If only I had a woman THEN I could do anything and everything. Like the man who says if he only had a woman, he would change for her, and move the world for her, like so many pop songs today are about.

    Those men are full of sh!t. If they were capable of half the sh!t they say they are able to do, they would have done it, women or otherwise. There is a reason why women avoid these types. They only deal with what ifs, hypotheticals, and are stuck with their d!ck in their hands.

    First you get the motivation and discipline to do anything for YOURSELF. And once that pays off women come to you. You don’t make the silly bargain of if a girl would only be the super faithful virgin nympho cheerleader to me, then I “would do anything for her”. At the very least you would need high potential. You will never be successful either with a Christian wife or the bar slvt if you really follow the mindset that a man will do anything if only his woman was the faithful nympho cheer leader. Good luck bargaining and negotiating your desire. Someone get Rollo Tomassi in here.

  41. Balzac says:

    @Jessica Wakeman: “I wish he had had the courage to talk to me.”

    The real passion killer was that young Jessica consistently showed little or no interest in having sex with her man. That’s the reason he called it quits. It takes two to tango. Jessica the elder knows this. But she lacks the courage to admit it.

  42. JDG says:

    1kingofkings says:
    August 3, 2014 at 5:16 pm

    It was not the feminists who created the “frigid wife” it is and was male domination over female sexuality that has done that.

    LOL! You are incorrect about the past and the present (a thorough indoctrination in western academia will do that). What odds should I give on the accuracy of how you view the future? You seems to have much of reality exactly backwards. I may come back to deconstruct this later, but I don’t know. It gets old after awhile.

  43. JDG says:

    Really, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t call an institution “patriarchal” and then pretend that women have “power” under that institution.

    I don’t know, John Adams seemed to think differently about this.

    “Depend upon it, we know better than to repeal our masculine systems. Although they are in
    full force, you know they are little more than theory. We dare not exert our power in its full
    latitude.
    We are obliged to go fair and softly, and, in practice, you know we are the subjects. We
    have only the name of masters,
    and rather than give up this, which would completely subject us
    to the despotism of the petticoat, I hope General Washington and all our brave heroes would
    fight; I am sure every good politician would plot, as long as he would against despotism, empire,
    monarchy, aristocracy, oligarchy, or ochlocracy.”

    http://www.historytools.org/sources/Abigail-John-Letters.pdf

    Never underestimate the power of V.

  44. Don says:

    My response would be just get somewhere from another woman who is sexual instead of a uptight frigid bitch that plays games!

  45. greyghost says:

    Don has got it right.

  46. cdw100 says:

    I had a neighbour whose wife was so enthusiastic about their marriage and all that is good about it, would put a gold sticker on the family calendar in the kitchen every time she and her husband had sex. I wonder if she also did it to shame the other women in the neighbourhood into be better wives. What most of the guys found out in short order, was that their desire and attainment of marital relations was less than 10% of this good guy and gal down the street. Within 5 years, only this couple remained married. Thankfully my ex took off with my business partner, biggest favour he ever did for me. He then tossed the ex 3 days before common-law vesting and kept his assets clear, and she never got a shot at mine, now she is stuck with a delivery guy. My how the world turns.

  47. theshadowedknight says:

    John, it is not just that they do not have a woman of their own, but that they will not have one. Not many decent women left, these days. They will not have a woman, so they will not put work in for one.

    They can still do all of those things, but why? Why not study hard and get a good job? Why not count to ten thousand or break fifteen hundred toothpicks in half? No one will reward you if you do.

    Also, you misunderstood negotiating desire. Go read that again.

    The Shadowed Knight

  48. ballista74 – Do divorce lawyers “ambulance-chase”? I’m not really sure, but if they aren’t already, hanging around appearances of people like Albert Mohler probably would be “smart for business”. I’m sure they’re clever enough that they already figured that out.

    Of course, the divorce industry doesn’t care what they do to marriages/lives as long as the money keeps rolling in.

    This is why I’m taking odds in Vegas that gay marriage is going to end up backfiring.

  49. Ras Al Ghul says:

    John,

    You read a lot into my statement that I didn’t say.

    You read he “would do anything for her” as both a negotiation to change a woman (which I never said) and an indication that a man won’t do anything on his own without a woman.

    You’re reading your own issues into it.

    I am talking about a woman’s power over a man. If a woman is faithless. If she is frigid, if she belittles him, there is no reason for him to do anything for her.

    For himself, sure, but for her no.

    You’ve twisted it all and the only reason I can think of is because you’re projecting you’re fear of the power women have over you and you’re own shame for of all things you are doing to get women.

    If a wife behaves badly, it begets bad behavior from the man: withdrawing, lack of motivation, porn, affairs, if she behaves well a man wants to do things for her.

    Wrap you’re little mind around the fact that in a relationship there is a cause and effect in behaviors with the people in your life. Or do you see every action as transactional in nature? As negotiating desire and love.

    Get a fucking clue

  50. Ras Al Ghul says:

    BobH says:

    August 3, 2014 at 5:50 pm

    @jf12, 3-Aug-2014 5:17 pm – Spot on. I agree that the woman’s sadism vis-a-vis denying the man that she claims to love gives them pleasure.

    Most women are cruel tyrants and abuse what power they have

  51. 1kingofkings says:

    JDG by denying my reality, that is verbal abuse. I specifically remember growing up hating sex because of how I was trained to Hate it. Ask any female if you don’t believe me. Plus, you are probably guilty of slut shaming to control the female anyway. So plausible deniability is there.

    When men look through the lenses of themselves having a drive to ejaculate daily or often; he comes to an erroneous conclusion. A woman’s sexuality is completely lacking in this drive. She may only have a drive to release two times a month: during ovulation, and right before her period. With this biological difference in place, men should be hyper-aware of oppressing even the smallest of drives that she has when the averages are against the men for her TO WANT IT LIKE A MAN. She will give herself “permission” to want it more often, but it becomes more of a choice, rather than a drive. She is aroused by feeling “emotionally good” from her man and if he continues to desire her, treat her fairly and well, she will continue to feed him sexually as long as he desires her. The “slut shaming” must stop as a child and as females go through life though or this problem will continue to perpetuate and it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy for man.

  52. Peter says:

    Count me among the “opt-outs” when it comes to dealing with women. My psych profile says “disproportionate averse reaction to emotional manipulation ” and I’ve not found a female who can convince me that putting up with them is worth it.

    What amazes me is the number of blokes who talk about sleeping on the couch. Sex or no sex, if she wants someone to sleep on the couch, she can sleep on it herself. That goes the same for any other form of bullying in your own house.

  53. Scott says:

    “Hope deferred makes the heart sick, But desire fulfilled is a tree of life.” Proverbs 13:12

    A Godly woman will take this verse into account in how she treats her husband. Denying sexual satisfaction to her husband is the equivalent of eating from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Women “decide” on their own that their husband’s sexual desire is “evil” and that it needs to be curbed. The Church, by and large, supports this interpretation. It makes sense to the natural mind, and to the religious mind.

    But Christ didn’t come to put us under a yoke of slavery. “It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery. Behold I, Paul, say to you that if you receive circumcision, Christ will be of no benefit to you. And I testify again to every man who receives circumcision, that he is under obligation to keep the whole Law. You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.” Galatian 5:1-4.

    Many wives, especially religious wives feel it is their “duty” to regulate the “evil” sexual desires of their husbands. But this is no more than putting the relationship “under Law.” And such women are no better than the Galatians who, after receiving the blessed salvation under grace, seek to be justified by the law. Such women, like the Galatians have “fallen from grace.”

    Indeed, the hearts of many men in the church are sick, because their hope is constantly and repeatedly deferred. But the second half of the verse gives a woman a way out; “desire fulfilled is a tree of life.” This is the purpose of a woman in a marriage – to be as a “tree of life” to her husband. Instead of seeing it as an “obligation,” she should revel in the fact that God himself has so constructed men as to have desire for their wives, and it is her great privilege to cooperate with God in being as a “tree of life” to her husband.

    I wonder how many religious women long to “serve God,” yet are so blind as to be deceived into fulfilling this purpose – and what a joyous fulfilling it can be for both the husband and wife together. God is not in the habit of making the fulfillment of His Will an onerous task. This is the very reason why he made sexual fulfillment in marriage such a pleasurable task for both involved. It is the very lies of Hell that a woman’s will “civilize” her man by denying him. This is fleshly thinking. The truly spiritually minded will see an opportunity to be like Christ, who is the very Tree of Life incarnate, the One whom we partake of to gain and sustain eternal life.

    Why any Christian woman would believe that the task of fulfilling her husband’s desire – a desire put in him for his wife by God Himself – to be any great sacrifice is a mystery to me. Why would you not want to fulfill his desires – and be as a tree of life to him. Can you even imagine how great a gift you give, and how blessed your husband will be if he walks in “life” and not “under law.” And any such woman’s husband would declare from the rooftops, that his wife is “full of grace.”

  54. dvdivx says:

    This is where Christian marriage dies. Forget gays, et all. A husband denied sex, even for years, (ie No sex – 0 times per year) is NOT entitled to a christian divorce. Ironically he would be entitled to an Islamic divorce if he were a muslim and the woman would be lucky to get anything including access to the kids. Every time I bring it up to ministers it’s ignored completely like it’s not a problem, In combination with divorce theft it’s not a miracle that marriage rates in young men is tanking and I doubt it will ever recover.

  55. MarcusD says:

    CAF and the Monster From Hell:

    Do women sin? (This is going somewhere… – anyone want to post a link to Dalrock?)

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=900657

    An interesting window into some young peope’s perspective

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=900566

    why are men Jesus and women “the church”?

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=900585

    First thread is what you’d expect.

    Xanthippe makes a few appearances. Again, her screen name is aptly chosen.

  56. Badger says:

    “The wife was horrified that she had over played her hand in using sex to keep her husband firmly in her orbit.”

    I have to admit I don’t see this in her response. The spreadsheet itself, combined with her self-professed gym habit, suggests a major lack of sexual interest in her husband, rather than any attempt to use sex to control his behavior. I haven’t seen any mention in her writings that she’s been dissatisfied with his specific contributions to the marriage and expected some kind of change from him as a result of throttling the sex.

    The highly contemptuous text of her missive is further evidence that she’s just not that interested in him, his cock, or his feelings. There’s a number of emotions in there, but shock at losing bargaining power over her husband doesn’t appear to be one of them.

    “The women responding were more interested in distancing themselves from the image of a frigid, powerless wife than they were in punishing the bad man.”

    I had never thought of this angle, but I definitely think this was part of the response. A lot of women (and weird Jewish-mystic writers with exceedingly creepy hairdos) were quick to assume that the dude was a flop in the sack or had neglected his “post-marital courtship duties” or whatever. This did make some semblance of woman-logic sense in terms of judging the man by his sexual results – if she’s not having sex with him, there must be sommmeething wrong with him, right?

    However, it’s brilliant to note the other side of it. The intrasexual-competition angle is such that when the topic comes up, women always want to think they are better mates than the other girls. So if she has lost the interest of her husband, that’s hamster-fodder evidence that the woman has lost effective sexual value in her marriage.

    Brilliance.

  57. JDG says:

    JDG by denying my reality, that is verbal abuse.

    If denying your reality is verbal abuse, then what should I call it when someone tries to deny all the destruction caused by feminism just to add one more female weakness to the long list of female weaknesses blamed on men via patriarchy? I guess sex abuse, no? Perhaps misandry then.

    I mean you are verbally abusing the entire male sex with your claims about male dominated societies are you not? Are you not also guilty of male shaming and trying to control males and make then behave in a manner pleasing to yourself?

    The “slut shaming” must stop as a child and as females go through life though or this problem will continue to perpetuate and it will be a self-fulfilling prophecy for man.

    The problem here is not training them correctly as children. Teaching them right from wrong at an early age is critical.

    Not teaching children right from wrong is cruel. Telling people that their behavior is destructive, when it IS destructive, is a kindness. Why can’t you see this?

  58. Badger says:

    cdw100,

    “He then tossed the ex 3 days before common-law vesting and kept his assets clear, and she never got a shot at mine, now she is stuck with a delivery guy. My how the world turns.”

    I always cry at happy endings!

    Srsly though, one of the things Dalrock keeps hammering on that I’m seeing play out among people in my personal life is that there is no law of nature that says people’s personal lives are going to work out. Specifically, that goes for people breaking up with their mates/spouses thinking they “deserve” better or can find someone else, or are tempted by short-term snacks without realizing they’ll never turn into long-term stability.

    It’s like a Greek tragedy, or a viewing of Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory – greedy people getting punked.

  59. Badger says:

    cdw100

    I’m curious – did you keep contact/business with the business partner who stole your wife? Did you ever thank him, even sardonically, for doing you that “favor”? I’m honestly curious what that’s like.

  60. Badger says:

    I’m actually really impressed by the comments on that Frisky article – lots of women (!) blasting the chick and taking the man’s side, particularly passing over the accusation that he’s “childish” and noting that this is probably not the first salvo in the couple’s conversations about sex. They seem to think they’re in a safe space and so are admitting they know lines like “I feel gross” are BS cop-outs for not being attracted to the guy.

    I’m still with Brendan Ross in being amazed so few people have suggested she’s cheating on him.

    “JDG by denying my reality, that is verbal abuse.”

    Congratulations – this is some epic trolling!

  61. “JDG by denying my reality, that is verbal abuse.”

    Congratulations – this is some epic trolling!

    Darn, you beat me to it. I was just about to comment on that glorious little moment of crazy.

  62. Spike says:

    Spot on, Dalrock.
    The big problem for married men is this:
    Our wives told us they loved us, and we agreed.
    They gave us sex in abundance, and we were happy.
    Then, bit by creeping bit, sexual manipulation enters.
    Finally, by 10-12 years of marriage, it dries up altogether.
    What did us husbands do to get this treatment?
    We became fathers, providers, put up with bad bosses, endured long commutes.
    We coached kids sporting teams and helped them with their maths homework.
    In short,we became the best fathers and husbands history has ever produced.

  63. Don Quixote says:

    1kingofkings says:
    August 3, 2014 at 10:39 pm

    “JDG by denying my reality, that is verbal abuse. ”

    What’s this “my reality” bu$hit?
    There is only 1 reality and we are all part of it.
    If you live in a ~separate~ reality its time to wake up.

  64. APL says:

    “A wife who almost never wants to have sex with her husband is a terrible wife.”
    I’m married and ‘spreadsheet man’ has it lucky, it is a matter of months since he last had sex. I’d count my enforced abstinence in years.

    I am suffering from ( self diagnosed ) depression and lack of motivation. What’s the chances it’s down to no sex?

    The problem now, is. I don’t even find my wife physically attracitve any more.

    I’ve had the whole gammut of excuses, ‘I’ve got work tomorrow’, ‘Go, on. Get it over with then’, etc etc.

    So, yes. I can identify with the She’s not interested, I’m not interested at all any more. It’s just too much trouble to blow the whole thing apart.

  65. Pingback: Frigidity and power. | Truth and contradictions...

  66. Snowy says:

    Scott on August 3, 2014 at 10:51 pm

    Really, really well said, Scott. Again, not only is God’s direction not burdensome to us, but following His will brings great blessings. If only the unregenerate could understand this; but I suppose they don’t understand because they are unregenerate.

  67. Thug says:

    “The big problem for married men is this:
    Our wives told us they loved us, and we agreed.
    They gave us sex in abundance, and we were happy.
    Then, bit by creeping bit, sexual manipulation enters.
    Finally, by 10-12 years of marriage, it dries up altogether.
    What did us husbands do to get this treatment?
    We became fathers, providers, put up with bad bosses, endured long commutes.
    We coached kids sporting teams and helped them with their maths homework.
    In short,we became the best fathers and husbands history has ever produced.”

    @spike So very true especially the last bit which as it turns out due to female biology is a real tingle killer. Seems the better a father or husband you are the less attractive you are. Go figure. My solution is to be that good father mixed with dread and self betterment.

    Badger says:
    August 4, 2014 at 12:46 am
    Totally agree with your analysis re her lack of interest in him and likely having an affair. Whether your male or female(but esp females), if you start going to the gym a whole lot (3-4+times a week) then in most cases your looking to boost your options or cheat; as well as get those wash board abs.

  68. Boxer says:

    Did you ever thank him, even sardonically, for doing you that “favor”?

    They say that the best revenge is letting him keep her…

  69. jf12 says:

    Spike sez “In short, we became the best fathers and husbands history has ever produced.” Which is true. And our wives were the worst mothers and wives ever. It’s not the menz fault. And the womenz hate us for knowing that, now.

  70. earl says:

    Isn’t it ironic how some of the sluttiest women outside of marriage turn into frigid wives in marriage.

  71. myrealitie says:

    An alternative hypothesis:

    Most women quite like sex. They like it with a lot of anticipation and foreplay and with a man of whom they feel in awe. Under those circumstances it is a relaxing and wonderful experience. Spreadsheet husband wasn’t turning his wife on anymore either by lacking the skills required to activate her sexuality or by otherwise losing status in her eyes.

    If you call a wife frigid and manipulative to relieve yourself of responsibility for the souring dynamic, it might protect your sense of manliness, but you still won’t be getting any sex. Food for thought.

  72. Ashwin Vyas says:

    1kingofkings, is it not true in your reality, that 90% of the slut-shaming is done by women, not men?

  73. Dave says:

    I am curious though. Do men discuss their sexual expectations with their future wives prior to marriage? I had to ask because in my experience, my ex never turned me down for sex over a 15 year period. Not even once. When we first started dating I made it clear that my expectation of married sex was “whatever, whenever, wherever”, unless there was a clear, biblical or health reasons against it. I have to say she met and exceeded my expectations in that area.
    Of course she was not American; she was from the Caribbean, and she never used the OCP. Although we divorced for other reasons, lack of sex definitely was not one of them.
    Now that I am dating again I make my expectations clear to potential wives, not only in the area of sex, but in areas of childcare, cooking and other things. Some of the women (mostly American women) tend to use the “You want a maid, not a wife” meme. But most non-American women I dated often express surprise that I even had to ask them if they would cook and clean, and provide regular sex should we ever get married.

  74. Sisyphean says:

    They do know that, very very well, which is why women of the mind, ugly women, driven women, who either cannot or will not become that nympho cheerleader men so desire have created and continue to perpetuate the feminist mind set which denigrates home making, husband loving women while elevating the hard charging, the bright, the plain.

  75. jf12 says:

    @myrealitie re: “or by otherwise losing status in her eyes.”

    That’s the “aternative” that is reality: no matter what he does or doesn’t do, he loses status in her eyes because of her biology. It’s HER fault, though, since she should elevate his status above her feewings.

  76. Snowy says:

    myrealitie sounds like she lives in the same warped reality (that is, unreality) as 1kingofkings. One and the same troll.

  77. Captain Jack says:

    My wife of 21 years has almost never spurned my needs. In fact I cannot even think of the last time that even happened. She defers to me in all major decisions and when i am contemplating the tough choices she says things like “I will support you no matter what and do what you need to do”.

    Feminism has it all wrong about that power dynamic. No amount of frigid behavior or arguing can come close to the power that woman has over me. By deferring to me she obligates me to the decisions and headship to a degree that cannot be overstated.

  78. myrealitie says:

    @jf12 – no matter what women lose interest in sex because of her biology? This is just untrue. Please see divorced women in their 40′s for evidence.

  79. theasdgamer says:

    1kingofkings is a troll. Don’t feed the trolls.

  80. myrealitie says:

    @captainjack – I agree that when a woman actively defers to her husband that he more naturally steps into the leadership role. I disagree that when women do not defer that it is because they want more power. Rather, they want to feel naturally deferent and attracted. Women want to be attracted to their husbands more than anything else, please believe me on this. The ongoing attraction can be enhanced when the woman is more deferent and when the man understands his own role in maintaining leadership. Both are required.

  81. theasdgamer says:

    Other trolls: myrealitie and Ashwyn Vyas

  82. deti says:

    Dalrock, your quotes of Jessica Wakeman, et al. are what is going on in women’s minds – “The jig is up! The sex cartel isn’t working anymore! If we don’t start sleeping with these schlubs we had to settle for, those guys are going to figure all this out, and then we’ll lose status as divorced women! We’ll lose our power and the status we have as married women! We’ll be shamed!”

    What’s going on there is what women feel and believe in their own minds. It’s all about them, what they will lose if hubby figures it all out and starts keeping score, like Spreadsheet Guy did. It’s all about what they stand to lose.

    But I think Badger had it more or less correct, and it’s the drum I keep banging. There are a lot, a LOT, of women marrying men they just aren’t all that sexually attracted to. They can stomach the sex during dating because the reward of Married Woman status will be theirs if they can just keep it up long enough for him to respond to the threat of “Give me a ring or I’m outta here”.

    By the time Spreadsheet Guy gets his crack at her, Wife has already had sex with all the guys who really turn her on. So now, it’s time to settle for Mr. Good Enough. To do that, it’s sex until I get the ring; then after the wedding and I got what I want, I’ll keep him on a slow trickle of sex. It’ll be juuuuust enough so I can show I’m having sex with him on a regular once every other month basis, so there’s no way he can say he’s being “deprived”.

    Truth: A lot of women are marrying men they just aren’t all that into.

  83. myrealitie says:

    Calmly offering an different perspective does not make a person a troll. I don’t wish to attack anyone here, I’m just contributing to the conversation because I find this topic interesting and because I feel sad to know that there are people who believe things that move them farther away from their goal instead of closer to it.

  84. greyghost says:

    Myrealitie
    WIVES don’t have sex because they like it. Wives have sex because they are wives. Girlfriends screw for the pleasure or any other reason and what ever it is it means nothing as long as she is screwing. She stops she is single. Wives are special and have duty and obligation to their husbands how they feel comes second to duty and obligations. That is what makes wives special and worthy of respect. Divorce women are for booty calls and cat lady jokes. See how that works. make yourself worthy. That is how a father talks to his teenage daughter by the way.

  85. myrealitie says:

    @deti – that might be true sometimes. But I also think another thing that happens is that being in a cooperative relationship can erode the sexy dynamic. Dalrock gave some interesting examples the other day of small things that can keep it going, such as the man driving and ordering for his wife at dinner. There are many other things as well that can be done. I’m just saying: the guys that a woman was attracted to in her earlier years aren’t often inherently different than the husband himself. Often the difference in attraction is just that modern, androgynous married life can take even a really sexy guy and make him sexually neutral to a woman if both partners aren’t taking steps to prevent this.

  86. deti says:

    @ freemansfarm:

    “Really, you can’t have it both ways. You can’t call an institution “patriarchal” and then pretend that women have “power” under that institution. Marriage least of all, as, in the patriarchal version of it, marriage extinguished pretty much all of a woman’s rights (a single or widowed woman actually had more rights than a married woman), and made her a ward of her husband (under the most generous interpretation of her status).”

    Married women, especially Yiayias, had a lot of soft power in patriarchy. That’s the point of the cheese commercials featuring Yiayia. A married woman got a lot of soft power in the form of pressure and influence. That soft power only grew as she aged.

    A patriarchal woman’s soft power is in the form of the love she receives from her husband. That’s what Ras al Ghul was talking about. A woman who really does respect her husband and sexes him has his love. That man will willingly strap himself to a plow; do anything for her. He knows this; and she knows it too. She used that soft power for her good, for her husband’s good, and especially for the good of her children.

    That soft power was subject to abuse, though, and true to form, feminist women have abused it. They have ruined the goodwill from most men who were willing to accede to that soft power. More and more of them won’t pay any mind to that soft female power at all now. That soft power’s abuse arose when it demanded legal rights and recognition. That power now no longer subjects itself to husbands; but has set itself at odds with men. That soft power no longer seeks to be derivative; but instead seeks its own base and independence. And that’s why we are where we are now.

  87. myrealitie says:

    @greyghost – I’m not disagreeing that a wife should have sex often when she isn’t initially in the mood (a lot of times getting in the mood happens after you get started anyway). However, if there is a more fundamental attraction problem (which often CAN be fixed with a little effort), then husbands KNOW their wives are giving them duty sex, and they HATE it. They HATE it. So I don’t think that stuffing down your feelings as a wife and just putting out is going to solve this problem in marriages.

  88. theasdgamer says:

    @ deti

    A lot of women are marrying men they just aren’t all that into.

    Or wives start out into their husbands, but lose attraction when the wives’ strategy of using sex to control their husbands works. The husband loses status once the wife realizes that she can control him by denying him sex. When the husband loses status, the wife loses attraction, since his high status is required for her attraction to him.

    The way out is Dread Game. It’s very biblical and is all throughout the Song of Solomon, if the reader has eyes to see. All the girls adore the apex alpha Man and talk about him to the Woman and he is always breaking rapport with the Woman. She is calling out, “Where are you? Who are you?” The Man approaches the Woman and she says, “no,” then he leaves. Her hamster imagines him with all the girls. Dread.

  89. JDG:

    For one thing, John Adams was a chronic complainer. For another thing, he had an unusually strong woman for a wife. For a third thing, as Adams’ quote implies, by the late eighteenth century the era of true “patriarchy” was ending, especially in the more “progressive” nations like Great Britain and even more so in its ultra progressive frontier offshoot, the North American colonies.

  90. greyghost says:

    deti
    women have sex for various reasons. She was sexually interested in him until she got the commitment. We have discussed this before on other topics when dread came up. As long as she has a reason she with sex her husband and amazingly she will be happy. These woman “lose’ sexual interest in the “boring loyal dude” because he is “good” Her selfish instinct told her to marry the stable guy because the alpha won’t and she needs to secure her home. The laws of misandry will force the guy to keep paying if he leaves and DV laws make a “good” man seem like a wimp. She has no drama with an honest man and the herd influence tells her drama is where it is at. This total rebellion thing against their husband is largely a herd status thing same as having the “I’ve suffered through a divorce” thing. As soon as it is culturally popular to connect the dots on social break down to the single mom and it is her fault sex in marriage will be a lot different. MGTOW,PUA, and a male pill will have a slow hidden effect along will open conversations such as this amongst men.

  91. jf12 says:

    @Myrealitie re: “I’m not disagreeing that a wife should have sex often when she isn’t initially in the mood”

    Then no man is going to disagree with you, unless you renege. The problem is, all women do renege …

    re: biology. The honeymoon period of a few years of rampant sex, for the same couple, almost always disappears because the woman unilaterally decides to cease having sex, by a factor of 5 or ten, It’s a huge effect, and apparently totally biological. Her loss of libido is curable by medication, e.g. the proposed monogamy drugs Lybrido etc.

  92. jf12 says:

    re: frigidity’s power. It is well known that long term lesbian couples have by far the least sex quantitatively: sexual events are by far the least frequently, and by far the least time genitally involved per event. Instapundit’s top link at the moment is to a question why so many straight women prefer penetration while lesbians do not. I think the main answer is that lesbians do not like sex, and penetration is sex. A sub-question is how often straight women get oral compared to lesbians.

    The answer is: straight women get a LOT more oral than lesbians. The incidence of oral HPV tells the whole story. Lesbians are exactly as likely to be infected with vaginal HPV as straight women, and slightly more likely to be infected with the cervical cancer strains. But lesbian women get by far the least oral HPV, more than twenty times less often than straight men. It’s quite easy to hypothesize, and be correct, that straight men spend twenty times as much time down there as lesbians do.

  93. greyghost says:

    myrealitie
    Duty sex from a wife is fine. It shows at least an understanding of honoring a commitment to her man. Beta men are special in that they pick up on displays of honor and have this strange sense of debt to honorable behavior. Military bonding and sports team bonding comes from that. We don’t agree to stand by each other in advance it just happens. Men kill and die for this. You can literally build western civilization with the power of male honor. Feminism has been living off of it. A good “wife” that has dutifully honored herself and not forced a good man to tolerate her builds the bank of respect when she ages and her husband loves her and is proud of her. Pedistalizing gives this to a woman with out her effort and you have a feminist entitled slut. The churchians do this and that is why actual good wives in the feminine imperative are belittled as door mats and the rebellious are seen as strong and good. These women hit 35-42 (the wall) and are alone and super settling or are signing up for on-line dating. no body wants them and all HAD ex husbands ,committed family men the hated men after child molesters in the west.

  94. Pingback: Frigidity and power | Honor Dads

  95. Dalrock says:

    Good to see you around Badger.

    I have to admit I don’t see this in her response. The spreadsheet itself, combined with her self-professed gym habit, suggests a major lack of sexual interest in her husband, rather than any attempt to use sex to control his behavior. I haven’t seen any mention in her writings that she’s been dissatisfied with his specific contributions to the marriage and expected some kind of change from him as a result of throttling the sex.

    The highly contemptuous text of her missive is further evidence that she’s just not that interested in him, his cock, or his feelings. There’s a number of emotions in there, but shock at losing bargaining power over her husband doesn’t appear to be one of them.

    The proof is in the mismatch between the bolded part (which I agree with), and her decision to publish this on reddit along with a defense of her willingness to sex him up.

    It’s not normal. For the most part of our relationship, we averaged 3-5 times a week I’d say? Including a non-reciprocated blowjob thrown in here and there.

    Why didn’t she just laugh at him and his beta outburst and close the message, wondering why it took the fool so long to figure out that she didn’t want him? Her message on reddit was shock, he’s never been like this before. It is the combination of lack of interest in him sexually with shock at his sudden willingness to stand up to her. She hasn’t been dissatisfied with his specific contributions to the marriage, until now.

    She was, I think we both agree, quite happy with the status quo. She pretended that she wanted sex but that it never somehow worked out, and he stayed comfortably in her orbit because he still assumed she was his woman. But then he sent the message and implemented radio silence, and she was so horrified that she posted it to reddit complaining of the unfairness of it all, begging team woman to sooth her pain.

  96. Dalrock says:

    @Badger

    However, it’s brilliant to note the other side of it. The intrasexual-competition angle is such that when the topic comes up, women always want to think they are better mates than the other girls. So if she has lost the interest of her husband, that’s hamster-fodder evidence that the woman has lost effective sexual value in her marriage.

    Brilliance.

    Thank you.

    I think the specific hamster mechanism is due to women not knowing/admitting what makes them attracted. This is the same mechanism which causes them to give such awful dating advice to men. They really have no clue. So they can’t process the simple fact that the wife isn’t attracted to her needy beta husband because he is needy and beta, just like they can’t process their own lack of attraction for the good (but unattractive) man they are married to. But they can instinctively identify with the risk of losing power which comes from always saying no to a husband.

  97. deti says:

    “I think the specific hamster mechanism is due to women not knowing/admitting what makes them attracted.”

    No, I do not think it’s that they don’t know what they’re attracted to. It’s that they won’t admit it. Because to admit that they’re attracted to very handsome men, bad boys, thugs, and men who treat them like shit, would make them look like bitches. It makes them look shallow and superficial. It would confirm from the horse’s mouth what he suspects and what most men have been saying. No woman wants to admit to any of that.

  98. Dalrock says:

    @myrealitie

    An alternative hypothesis:

    Most women quite like sex. They like it with a lot of anticipation and foreplay and with a man of whom they feel in awe. Under those circumstances it is a relaxing and wonderful experience. Spreadsheet husband wasn’t turning his wife on anymore either by lacking the skills required to activate her sexuality or by otherwise losing status in her eyes.

    If you call a wife frigid and manipulative to relieve yourself of responsibility for the souring dynamic, it might protect your sense of manliness, but you still won’t be getting any sex. Food for thought.

    This isn’t really an alternative hypothesis, but more like the other side of the coin. It is also the side of the coin most commonly viewed in the manosphere. If I were giving advice to spreadsheet man, I’d focus on leadership, with the eventual side benefit of gaining attraction (you may have slept through this recent post).

    I agree that when a woman actively defers to her husband that he more naturally steps into the leadership role. I disagree that when women do not defer that it is because they want more power.

    That is some first class rationalization right there. Of course women seize power because they want power.

    Rather, they want to feel naturally deferent and attracted. Women want to be attracted to their husbands more than anything else, please believe me on this. The ongoing attraction can be enhanced when the woman is more deferent and when the man understands his own role in maintaining leadership. Both are required.

    This is pretty much inline with Rollo’s analysis. However, if authenticity is what is paramount, why marry? As Rollo explains, a woman can get the most authentic experience possible by being part of a harem. Win-win. If marriage has no moral meaning (and no obligations like sex), then why marry?

  99. hurting says:

    Spike says:
    August 4, 2014 at 2:19 am

    So true. By any measure, today’s husbands and fathers, as a group, perform far better than any cohort in history by dint of the fact that they still do all of the ‘man’ stuff and, in my experience, waaaayyyy more than their fair share of the ‘woman’ stuff than any generation in recorded history. For this we get nothing.

    Why does it happen? Because, I think it’s a ‘bait and switch’ operation from the start in most cases. The typical American woman is more than willing to fake it for awhile with a solid beta provider because he is a safe bet to provide her with resources. She might even convince herself that she’s into him for awhile, but when the realities of day-to-day living creep in, she starts to regret the settling she did and starts resenting him. I rather doubt that there are really very many cases where withholder really loses genuine interest that had been there in the first place.

  100. jf12 says:

    The synthesis of Dalrocks “I think the specific hamster mechanism is due to women not knowing/admitting what makes them attracted.”

    with deti’s “No, I do not think it’s that they don’t know what they’re attracted to. It’s that they won’t admit it.”

    is, of course, women’s psychological defense mechanisms. It’s as if the hamster on the wheel is actively keeping rational thoughts at bay; a sort of virtually armed hamster.

  101. cicero says:

    @1kingofkings
    “JDG by denying my reality, that is verbal abuse.”

    WOW…. First you insinuate that I am a “batterer” because I made an observation on your antics and now you insinuate JDG as an “abuser” because he disagrees with you. The air must be pretty thin in that high ivory tower of yours.

    All you are trying to do is control the language used in order to control the outcome of the conversation. That is classic feminist tactics.

    Oh and I am still waiting for the answer to my question. You do remember about the “give and take” you were harping on.

  102. 1kingofkings says:

    All the indecent men calling me a “troll” is unnecessary. What’s with emotional name-calling ? Let’s be civil despite our feelings for each other. Lol keep your emotions to yourself. How rude of me for telling you the female perspective .[sarcasm] But this isn’t about females, is it ?? it’s only about you males and your perspective because I forgot the world revolves around you and the way you think. When you come in contact to another individual, who is like a foreigner, or was from another planet that exists so differently from you, don’t you think you should consider what their perspective in their foreign country? I deem it necessary – probably why your New Testament scripture says, “dwell with them with knowledge ” but many don’t want to know but they should know. It should be trying to understand a care for the otherwise but it’s not -instead it she’s trying to manipulate me to be different- no, it’s ignorance. My guess is that why with No cooperation, the arrogance of man “my way or The highway” never gets anything accomplished and the women just leave; Hence, 3/4 of the divorce initiated by the female. 
    No, and please hear me loud and clear: I am the one who was denied sex from the beginning after he said,” I do. ” I worked on trying for 15 years – trying to get this man to care and he didn’t -I left him because I got no sex!! My girlfriend you just divorced her husband for the same situation. It’s not all about the men getting denied all the time so it’s a straw man argument trust me. I know – and don’t turn it around on me and saying I’m ugly woman fat woman, I’m not, I’m beautiful. No, about a week after I got married I requested sex and he said I like quality not quantity… Right then and there are knew I was in trouble. So let’s work together on this and just because we have more emotions and feelings doesn’t mean that you guys can’t figure out the code for the Foreigner because we want to be around you just as much as you want to be around us.
    And , yes, I was a religious Torah observant Christian. I did everything a wife should do. Didn’t matter.

  103. myrealitie says:

    @Dalrock – after I posted this comment, I thought a little more about the power element:
    I think that women want on one side to be with a man they are very attracted to, but that this also includes an element of feeling insecure and vulnerable to being neglected (as in the harem model). So women try to control things in their marriage so that they feel more secure, but the side effect of that is losing attraction. So I concede that women seek power in this way. As in many things, a carefully calibrated balance is the path to the highest level of harmony. A happy, harmonious union is preferable even in situations where a wife would behave dutifully even if she were not attracted: I hope we can all agree with that.

  104. Dalrock says:

    @Spike

    In short,we became the best fathers and husbands history has ever produced.

    I disagree. More accurately, men of our generation became the husbands and fathers women, the church, and the culture at large told men to become. The problem is, what men have been told is the best possible husband and father is wrong.

  105. myrealitie says:

    And regarding why marry if not for moral reasons: I personally like being married because because I love to have a partner and children. I think I would go nuts in a harem. Yuck.

  106. theasdgamer says:

    @ Dalrock

    If I were giving advice to spreadsheet man, I’d focus on leadership, with the eventual side benefit of gaining attraction (you may have slept through this recent post).

    This is a very iffy strategy. Dread is direct and to the point. See my latest post, Escaping the Friend Zone Dread is exemplified by the Man’s actions throughout the Song of Solomon–being aloof, breaking rapport, being around other women, etc. Increasing leadership won’t work unless the woman no longer recognizes the man and her hamster recalculates his SMV. Do you have any biblical evidence that a man _increasing_ leadership will make him more attractive to a woman?

  107. feeriker says:

    What did us husbands do to get this treatment?We became fathers, providers, put up with bad bosses, endured long commutes.We coached kids sporting teams and helped them with their maths homework.In short,we became the best fathers and husbands history has ever produced.

    Arguably the best example of the old adage “no good deed goes umpunished.”

  108. jf12 says:

    It may do us all well to pause to remember to disconnect between women’s physiological sexual arousal and women’s self-reported mental sexual arousal. Remember all those well-replicated experiments with women’s vaginal blood flow arousal meters, and women’s self-reported mental arousal being totally uncorrelated with vaginal arousal? Well, I’m not just talking about those experiments. Further experiments measured cranial blood flow and activities in the brain, and even though this brain sexual arousal was very well correlated with vaginal arousal, women’s self-reported mental sexual arousal was still totally uncorrelated.

  109. jf12 says:

    @feeriker, re: no good deed.

    Arguably, suffering because of one’s good deeds is the glory of man (1 Peter 2:20, etc)

  110. feeriker says:

    But most non-American women I dated often express surprise that I even had to ask them if they would cook and clean, and provide regular sex should we ever get married.

    It’s always heartening to hear that. It just further cements the well-earned reputation of AWs as the useless and repulsive creatures that most of them are.

  111. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf12

    women’s self-reported mental sexual arousal was still totally uncorrelated.

    Whether due to lies or ignorance, the same result is obtained. Don’t believe women when they talk about their sexual attraction/arousal.

  112. jf12 says:

    @tasdg re: “Don’t believe women when they talk about their sexual attraction/arousal.”

    This is almost the same point as Dalrock’s “The problem is, what men have been told is the best possible husband and father is wrong.” although I think he’d disagree about the emphases.

  113. deti says:

    Dalrock: “If marriage has no moral meaning (and no obligations like sex), then why {should a woman} marry?”

    Myrealitie: “I personally like being married because because I love to have a partner and children. I think I would go nuts in a harem. Yuck.

    And there you have it. Women marry for the status of getting married (her “special day”) and being married. Who she’s married to is less important than the fact that she is married. What’s important is that some man somewhere thought enough of her to buy a ring, ask her, and stand in a public place saying “I do” to her and her parents.

    The important thing is her status, not her obligations to him.

  114. cicero says:

    @theasdgamer
    “This is a very iffy strategy.”
    No it is the only strategy to effectively to get to the cause.

    “Dread is direct and to the point.”
    Direct yes but to the point… not so much.

    “See my latest post, Sexual Macrodynamics Dread is exemplified by the Man’s actions throughout the Song of Solomon–being aloof, breaking rapport, being around other women, etc.”
    Pay special attention to verse 9

    http://biblehub.com/niv/1_kings/11.htm

    “Increasing leadership won’t work unless the woman no longer recognizes the man and her hamster recalculates his SMV”
    More Bible leadership following… less hamster chasing. It does wonders for confidence and we all know women love confidence. For some or other reason confidence bumps up SMV in men. Go figure.

    “Do you have any biblical evidence that a man _increasing_ leadership will make him more attractive to a woman?”
    Well do you have any Biblical evidence that a man _decreasing_leadership will make him more acceptable to God?

  115. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf12

    Continuing from a previous comment of yours about loving a wife vs. a wife feeling loved by her husband. Logically, a woman doesn’t have the authority to judge whether her husband is acting according to the command to “cherish and nourish” his wife. If she asserts that she doesn’t feel loved, then she is attempting to usurp that authority. If a husband were to submit to his wife as if she had that authority, it would seriously harm his status in her eyes. Quite possibly she might not recognize him and would recalculate his SMV. Hence, his lower status would cause his SMV to decline in her eyes, 5h1t tests would follow, etc.

    This ties in to an AHA moment I had today. I was thinking about why reasoning with a woman on subjects touching on a man’s status is counterproductive (e.g., what is the husband doing to benefit the marriage). When he reasons, a man is submitting his ideas to another person for them to pass judgment on those ideas. Status is affected. A woman perceives a lowering in a man’s status if he reasons with her about certain topics relating to his status.

    Note to self: Don’t do that.

  116. myrealitie says:

    @deti – lol way to put words in my mouth. Of course who I am married to is important. I didn’t get married until I was 29 (which would disgust many of the people on this board) because it took that long for me to a) become a person with the character to be attractive to my husband, and it took that long for me to find someone with the qualities that I know I could be happy with for life (essentially, the right combination of alpha and beta traits). I was terrified of ending up with someone who either wouldn’t be attractive to me over the years or who would be unreliable and selfish.

    I personally think a lot of well intentioned men (perhaps those leaning towards naturally beta) have the capability to become husbands that their wives enjoy and look forward to having sex with and treating deferentially. I know this would make both husbands and wives more satisfied in life, which is why I keep insisting that people give it a try.

  117. jf12 says:

    @tasdg re: aha moment. “A woman perceives a lowering in a man’s status if he reasons with her about certain topics relating to his status.”

    Aha. It is an infectious aha. So, what a woman really wants her man to do is baldly assert his opinions, without any associated reasoning, just like she has been exampling all along …

  118. Gaza says:

    “If marriage has no moral meaning (and no obligations like sex), then why marry?”

    This is the question of the times. I ask my GF this same question, worded in different ways, and the distilled answer is of course: “love”. But then the question of love can be framed similarly. She has loved before, why not not marry those men? Further, she has had sex with other men before, most she did not “love”. She has lived with a man before, who she “loved” but did not marry.

    What exactly does marriage [now, to me] provide that wasn’t available and readily consumed previously? Why must [now] the various components be contracted with a single man when it has been established that morality and obligation and commitment are all relative and transitory according to her shifting needs and desires? I have my own answers of course, but her answers all seem to put her in that uncomfortable space: a corner into which her choices and behaviors up to now have painted her.

    Upthread jf12 calls attention to the knowledge of power and admittance of power; I see this dynamic vis a vis your question of marriage as well. IOW, for the modern woman who has lived the spectrum of marital approximations and samplings, codifying a (non-obligatory) sexual relationship via marriage seems seems to be purely a means to marry her unilateral sexual power with the social status that comes with yoking a sufficiently attractive man with unilateral obligations.

    It is uncomfortably opportunistic. Women know this but do everything they can – in her case rewriting what “love” now means to her, in order to avoid admitting to such a distasteful tactic. Yet ask them if they think a woman is obligated to give her husband sex and they will give you that sideways look of disgust. Strong independent woman seeking marriage do so out of entitlement, not obligation.

    Perhaps the question is different at 23, before the buffet of life fills the rearview, but at 35+ the floor is painted in full. Of course it is still such a selfish thing for a man to ask: “what’s in it for me?” Seems to me that the only sacred thing about the institution of marriage sans sexual obligation is that it should not be questioned in motive or meaning by men. It is their duty as a “real man” to marry.

    That V commercial is disgusting. And raciss. I do like how the powerful women depicted look like manjaw trannies though. That was a nice touch. Tuck it in, lean-in.

  119. embracing reality says:

    “Frigid is such a powerful term, and is so hated by feminists, because it names the risk of losing sexual power by overplaying the control hand.”

    Leaving the word “frigid” out of the lexicon wont change the reputation of married women as sexless, manipulative shrews. Women are losing their sexual power to trap even Christian men in marriage by their reputation as sexless, manipulative and often quickly overweight wives.

    A man who lives a life of drudgery slaving his guts out in exchange for nothing more than steady sex from a pleasant, attractive, submissive wife has in my opinion made a poor trade. What can I say about a man who lives a life of drudgery slaving his guts out in exchange for infrequent sex from an unpleasant, unattractive, manipulative shrew? If the mess we call marriage can be saved it will only happen when enough single men have refused to participate in whats being offered as marriage. Only then will women be forced to improve the vulgar slop they’re currently offering as standard fare.

  120. However, if there is a more fundamental attraction problem (which often CAN be fixed with a little effort), then husbands KNOW their wives are giving them duty sex, and they HATE it.

    You’re absolutely wrong, and you shouldn’t speak for men because you have no idea what you’re talking about. Duty sex may not be ideal, but it’s a damn sight better than lying there on fire next to a woman you can’t have night after night after night, especially when her disregard for your needs is the only reason you can’t have her. It takes years of being disrespected, hundreds or thousands of refusals, for a man to reach the point where he stops wanting sex from his wife. No man would ever reach that point if his wife never made a habit of refusing him in the first place.

  121. jf12 says:

    @myrealitie, the unfortunate real reality in which the vast vast vast majority of us well-intentioned (and therefore beta) men reside is precisely this: Women do not enjoy being deferential towards well-intentioned men.

    Instead what is easily observed is that women enjoy being submissive to vampires and other men with evil intentions.

  122. Crank says:

    This is why so many women, especially feminists, have such a strong negative reaction to men viewing (and sometimes spankin it to) porn. It tends to invert the customary sexual power dynamic in an exclusive relationship. It might even force women to “earn” sex in the relationship by upping their sex appeal, rather the men being expected to “earn” it every day, even though in marriage it already should be theirs due to marriage vows. Occasionally, they let their guards down and this slips out. To quote Naomi Wolf: “By the new millennium, a vagina—which, by the way, used to have a pretty high “exchange value,” as Marxist economists would say—wasn’t enough; it barely registered on the thrill scale. ” She spins this as women being upset at being sexually neglected, but it seems to me to be more about loss of power.

    http://nymag.com/nymetro/news/trends/n_9437/

  123. greyghost says:

    The best way to increase headship is to quit worrying about making her happy. At this point in time by law no man has headship. This conversation is old but has an impossible solution. The conversation needs to be what the hell do you need a wife for. My honest answer is I needed a uterus to grow my kids in. I was under no delusions of this great woman that was going to love me for all I did for her. Only a straight up fool believes that.
    I highly recommend surrogacy and nannies (renta mom) the father is the key in a civilized society. Sad to say women behave well in a society that doesn’t give a shit about them. Male birth control pill, MGTOW and the PUA for the guys that like to sex up women for pleasure. And grass eater ,peter pan for men that just don’t care. Mangina’s and white knights can pay for the entitled skanks. MGTOW will have surrogate kids that are his and let the pleasing chuchian boy pay CS on his cuckold bastard. Sounds bad but we are changing attitudes not just surviving feminism.

  124. Myrealitie, marrying at twenty nine because you blah blah blah blah, blah blah is not surprising. We understand that women blah, blah blah blah. Sometimes, blah blah blah is just the thing for a woman looking for marriage. That you blah blah blah, blah is quite normal these days.

    We have heard every possible permutation of your excuses. Not only are women unimaginative and repetitive, they love to share just why they are different from the millions of other women with an identical story. I am quite sure that you feel that you are somehow unique, but well, it all sounds the same. “Blah, blah, blah.”

    The Shadowed Knight

  125. deti says:

    Gaza, Aug 4, 11:20 am:

    Yes. Precisely. The thing is, you can’t get most women to admit that at bottom, the need for marriage is about validation and status: Validation of her worth as a woman; and because marriage elevates her status because some man somewhere wanted her enough to wife her up.

    “But then the question of love can be framed similarly. She has loved before, why not not marry those men?”

    Obviously, because either: (1) she did not want to be married at that time, preferring instead to keep her options open and knowing that marriage would create obligations; or (2) she could not get them to marry her.

  126. greyghost says:

    The Shadowed Knight
    yeah I notice that too and smiled to myself. !0 plus years of riding dick “and this one was just right” as soon as 2 or 3 kids show up and the youngest is in school or close to it things didn’t work out and he changed. ha ha ha ha

  127. myrealitie says:

    @cail – I can feel the frustration you must be experiencing through your post, and I am very, very sorry that you’re having to endure that. That said, with all due respect, if you’re coming from the position of being refused, of course duty sex seems like an improvement. But I stand firm in my assertion that men who are receiving periodic duty sex are typically wishing very much that they were receiving enthusiastic passionate sex, and are also incredibly discontent.

  128. myrealitie says:

    @theshadowedknight – so you are a self-confessed misogynistic and don’t believe that true harmony between men and women is possible, but rather only oppression of women’s true evil spirit? We’re coming from such fundamentally different places that when I try to see your perspective all I hear is “blah blah blah” too. Anyway, I am quite happy in my lot, how is holding down the evil woman in your life working out for you?

  129. jf12 says:

    Re: Wolf and the porn myth.

    The true porn myth is that many men ever advocated for porn as a means for increasing his enjoyment in his wife: the porn truth is that men who consume porn, or strip clubs, or whatever, do so BECAUSE their wives refuse to do whatever things for his enjoyment. So they look outside the marriage, instead.

    BTW the same is true for women’s porn. Women do not have more sex with their husbands after consuming erotica etc.

  130. Aniay says:

    embracing reality -[A man who lives a life of drudgery slaving his guts out in exchange for nothing more than steady sex from a pleasant, attractive, submissive wife has in my opinion made a poor trade.] ——–>>> is this true? Do men see married life to pleasant, attractive, submissive women as a life of drudgery? This post has been something for me to think about.—— MOST of all I want God to say “well done” after he asks me what I did with the talent (hubbie) he gave me, but I guess it is good to see that I might not be doing the best job I could be.

  131. No, I do not think it’s that they don’t know what they’re attracted to. It’s that they won’t admit it. Because to admit that they’re attracted to very handsome men, bad boys, thugs, and men who treat them like shit, would make them look like bitches. It makes them look shallow and superficial.

    A woman may know that she’s attracted to a bad boy, but she doesn’t know that’s why she’s attracted to him. She tells herself it’s because of his softer side that no one else sees, or because he’s kind to his mother, or whatever. She finds some way to rationalize to herself the fact that she keeps hooking up with guys who have prison tats.

    I was talking to a guy whose daughter has dated a series of convicts. She told him that there’s a guy at her workplace who’s asked her out, and he’s really nice and has his life in order, but he just doesn’t excite her so she turned him down. She thinks it’s a shame that he doesn’t excite her, because she thinks she’d like an exciting nice guy. She doesn’t understand that his niceness and stability are the reason he doesn’t excite her. She just thinks it’s a coincidence and a bad string of luck on her part that the exciting guys she’s met happen to be thugs.

  132. Why do feminists have so much trouble with the word misogynist? It is the written equivalent of “nuculer.” Given how much they use it, you would think they could at least have the decency to spell it correctly.

    The Shadowed Knight

  133. deti says:

    Myrealitie, Aug 4, 11:18 am:

    I didn’t say who you were married to isn’t important. I said who you’re married to is LESS important than the fact that you are married. To somebody. Anybody.

    Please, don’t give us the song and dance that you needed to “grow” before you got married at 29. You waited to 29 because you either (1) couldn’t get an attractive man to offer marriage; or (2) you wanted to keep your options open because other things in your life were more important than marriage.

    More to the point, what I find fascinating about these conversations with women is that they just cannot get all the way to their own reasons. They simply cannot, will not, admit that they had to settle. They cannot and will not admit that they’re pissed because the hawt guys who rocked their worlds in the sack would not marry them. They cannot and will not admit that had they a choice between the hawt guy they used to sex up; and the guy they’re married to now; if they had it to do over again and they could control it all, they’d choose hawt guy. Every. Single. Time.

  134. But I stand firm in my assertion that men who are receiving periodic duty sex are typically wishing very much that they were receiving enthusiastic passionate sex, and are also incredibly discontent.

    Sure, but that’s not all you said, and you’re still overstating their discontent and already moving the goalposts. You said they HATE duty sex and would prefer nothing at all, and that’s quite simply wrong. Again, it takes years of abuse for a man to reach that point.

    First, when we talk about a man getting “duty sex,” that means his wife is doing her “duty” and getting naked whenever he wants it, not just “periodically,” whatever you mean by that. Yes, if a man is getting refused six nights a week and then getting a grudging “Okay, if you really must” session while she stares at the ceiling on the seventh night, then yes, that will suck, because he’s getting the worst of both worlds. But that’s not “duty sex”; that’s “I’d better throw him one before he gets fed up and finds a girlfriend” sex.

    I’ve said this before, but people like you imply a false choice, as if the options are regular duty sex or occasional “enthusiastic passionate sex,” so a man might be better off with the latter. But there’s no such thing as the latter (and maybe no such thing as the former). You imply that a man whose wife only wants sex monthly should leave her alone the rest of the time because he’ll get better sex if he waits until she really wants it. But it doesn’t work that way. A woman who is “enthusiastic” and “passionate” about her husband doesn’t refuse him regularly; and a woman who refuses her husband regularly is not suddenly going to become a tiger in bed when she caves in once in a while. The opposite is true: the woman who refuses most of the time is more likely to be grudging when she gives in, and the one who never refuses is more likely to make it great.

    (One exception might be if she’s bi-polar or BPD and swings drastically between frigid and passionate, in which case you have bigger problems.)

    So stop telling men they should be content with cold showers while they wait for their wives to work up the desire for a great night of banging, because it doesn’t work that way.

  135. deti says:

    In fact, I’ve been through this with women at other sites, two in fact, of this grand experiment with men and women talking to each other about intersexual relationships.

    Every time this issue of female attraction is brought up, women run screaming for their pillows and teddy bears. I see the equivalent of women sitting in virtual corners, rocking to and fro and muttering to themselves. I see women who’ve lifted the rock and looked at the dark underbelly of female sexual attraction. They hear from men who have seen what that really looks like.

    And they cannot handle it.

    One can literally see the synapses misfiring. One can see the “HALT AND CATCH FIRE” message flash across the women’s minds. One can literally see the Blue Screen Of Death flash up. One can see the “does not compute, does not compute” message repeat over and over.

    They just cannot handle the truth about their own sexual attraction. They just can’t.

  136. Dalrock says:

    @Cail

    She thinks it’s a shame that he doesn’t excite her, because she thinks she’d like an exciting nice guy. She doesn’t understand that his niceness and stability are the reason he doesn’t excite her. She just thinks it’s a coincidence and a bad string of luck on her part that the exciting guys she’s met happen to be thugs.

    She can’t say “What is wrong with me for being attracted to the wrong kind of men?” so she says “Why am I attracting the wrong kind of men?”

  137. Any wife who thinks her husband is getting plenty of sex or would hate duty sex can easily find out for herself. Simply go up to him every night and say, “Honey, you seem tense, and I’d like to help you relax. I’m not really horny, but if you’d like to pound your cock into me until you come, I’m up for it.” Then don’t do anything to make it exciting (unless you get in the mood); just let him use your body.

    After a few weeks, if he’s taking you up on it every night, increase to twice a day. Maybe before he heads to work, ask if he’d like to drain his balls first. Again, let him do his thing and don’t enjoy it any more than you’re inspired to. If he’s happy with twice a day, offer a third session — maybe he can run home from lunch once a while, or set an alarm for the middle of the night. Keep increasing the “duty sex” until he starts saying, “No thanks, I’ve had enough for today.”

    Then after a couple months of this, say, “You know, honey, I realize I’m not doing much to make our sex lives passionate. I only get really horny every couple weeks, but if you want, we could cut back to that often, and I’d promise to give you the most enthusiastic bang of your life every two weeks.” See what he says.

    If you really think men hate duty sex, try that with your own husband. I dare you.

  138. feeriker says:

    But I stand firm in my assertion that men who are receiving periodic duty sex are typically wishing very much that they were receiving enthusiastic passionate sex, and are also incredibly discontent.

    I’m not in the habit of acknowledging trolls (and this the last time I’m going to address this one), but I’m going to echo what others here have already made clear: you, like almost all women, don’t have a clue what the hell you’re talking about when it comes to men’s sexual dynamics. Please, for your own sake, knock it off before you destroy what few shreds of intellectual credibility you have left. You’re making a bigger fool of yourself than you can possibly imagine.

  139. greyghost says:

    Cail I couldn’t have said it better. Ewwwww duty sex .

  140. deti says:

    “She can’t say “What is wrong with me for being attracted to the wrong kind of men?” so she says “Why am I attracting the wrong kind of men?””

    Exactly. Few women I’ve ever met have the self-awareness or self knowledge or humility to consider that maybe, just maybe, THEY are the problem.

  141. deti says:

    “Yes, if a man is getting refused six nights a week and then getting a grudging “Okay, if you really must” session while she stares at the ceiling on the seventh night, then yes, that will suck, because he’s getting the worst of both worlds. But that’s not “duty sex”; that’s “I’d better throw him one before he gets fed up and finds a girlfriend” sex.”

    That’s the issue here. Sums it up nicely. There’s a dichotomy here between what women think is duty sex and what men think it is.

    To a man, “duty sex” is as Cail described it – she’s getting naked when he wants. To a woman, “duty sex” is phoning it in; going through the motions; starfish; “**heaving sigh ** let’s GET IT OVER WITH” sex.

    Men don’t mind the former; might even like it. Men do hate the latter; because the woman is all but accusing him of rape by approaching sex this way.

  142. Thinkn'Man says:

    @Cail:
    “…If you really think men hate duty sex, try that with your own husband. I dare you.”
    When I hear wives-a-whining about how tough it is to be married and make a “relaaaaationship worrrk”, the sex thing usually pops up. Followed by dismissive smirks and guffaws.
    I usually have as much sympathy for the “wife” as I would for a guy who puts 87 octane in an imported sports car, doesn’t follow the maintenance schedule, and has the nerve to b**** about what a piece of junk the car is.

  143. feeriker says:

    She can’t say “What is wrong with me for being attracted to the wrong kind of men?” so she says “Why am I attracting the wrong kind of men?”

    Bullseye!

  144. Don says:

    Having been married 3 times I have experienced women in different ways in regards to this issue. My first wife loved sex and I was never without it but being young I ignored her ran around with my friends and eventually she got tired of it and left me for another man now she wants back even 30 years later because we had an a very hot sex life that she has not found anywhere else so as her sister has told me. My second wife was cold and controlling and fits this article so very true! My 3rd wife { YOU THINK I WOULD HAVE LEARNED BY NOW!} is very warm but as we have gotten older is more interested in space and going out with her girlfriends and not to mention her rabbit – sex toy- then me so now I work out everyday and will see what the future brings but as far as a spread sheet I have been using that for the last couple of years and it does not look good! P.S. I hate to be unfaithful but is it not these type of women who push us in that direction?

  145. HawkandRock says:

    “…and don’t turn it around on me and saying I’m ugly woman fat woman, I’m not, I’m beautiful.”

    But of course you are, dear.

  146. feeriker says:

    If you really think men hate duty sex, try that with your own husband. I dare you.

    Cail, I think you could turn that dare into a bet on which you could safely lay a year’s salary. The only wives likely to follow your advice to the letter are wives who still feel at least some residual sexual attraction to their husbands, and thus probably aren’t seriously depriving them. The wife who most needs to act on your advice is the one who feels a visceral loathing for the beta provider she has settled for and who would sooner undergo a clitorectomy without anaesthetic than to provide even grudging duty sex to him.

  147. Gunner Q says:

    “But I stand firm in my assertion that men who are receiving periodic duty sex are typically wishing very much that they were receiving enthusiastic passionate sex, and are also incredibly discontent.”

    Men who are receiving periodic duty sex are typically wishing very much that their wives cared enough about them to make an effort. Hence their incredible discontent.

  148. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cicero

    TASDG: “This is a very iffy strategy.”
    No it is the only strategy to effectively to get to the cause.

    I already indicated that his strategy is controversial. You added nothing but unnecessary words and your vote. Your vote + 50 cents is worth…50 cents.

    TASDG: “Dread is direct and to the point.”
    Direct yes but to the point… not so much.

    Maybe you could enlighten us lesser mortals about what you think the point is.

    TASDG: “See my latest post, Sexual Macrodynamics Dread is exemplified by the Man’s actions throughout the Song of Solomon–being aloof, breaking rapport, being around other women, etc.”
    Pay special attention to verse 9

    http://biblehub.com/niv/1_kings/11.htm

    So, why did you ignore my reference to the Song of Solomon after I showed its relevance? And why should I think that your reference is relevant to anything?

    TASDG: “Increasing leadership won’t work unless the woman no longer recognizes the man and her hamster recalculates his SMV”
    More Bible leadership following… less hamster chasing. It does wonders for confidence and we all know women love confidence. For some or other reason confidence bumps up SMV in men. Go figure.

    You attack “hamster chasing,” i.e., understanding feminine psychology. Then you mention that “confidence bumps up SMV in men.” By this reasoning, you are relying on understanding feminine psychology (women calculate a man’s SMV and we know from understanding women’s psychology that confidence increases a man’s SMV), which practice you have previously attacked. Your reasoning is unstable, given that you attack a practice, then do the same.


    “Do you have any biblical evidence that a man _increasing_ leadership will make him more attractive to a woman?”
    Well do you have any Biblical evidence that a man _decreasing_leadership will make him more acceptable to God?

    This reframing would work if you had made your point, which you haven’t. So, my question, which appeals for a biblical cite, remains unanswered. Check out your own Kings reference, there up above, bubba. You might also consider: “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” verse 16 at https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2+Peter+3&version=ESV

  149. Feeriker, no doubt I could. Most wives would never go near that challenge, because they’d fear creating a monster.

    With rare exceptions, a wife today has gradually trained (yes, “train” is the word they use) her husband to expect sex less and less often, to increase her control and make it possible for her to use sex to get things. If she suddenly offered him sex as often as he wants it, she has no idea how often that would be. But she does remember when they first got together and screwed so hard and often that she woke up sore and bruised sometimes. What if he still wants it that much? What if he wants it even more, to make up for lost time? What if he leaves her bent over the kitchen table panting and sticky as he leaves for work every day, and then hauls her into the bedroom as soon as he gets home, even when her favorite show is on? That loss of control over the situation would be intolerable.

    And if thinking about those possibilities makes her start to tingle a little — well, that would be really intolerable. Back to the “training.”

  150. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf12

    Aha. It is an infectious aha.

    http://media.photobucket.com/user/m122117/media/snoopy%20animated/dancingtophat.gif.html?filters%5Bterm%5D=animated%20snoopy&filters%5Bprimary%5D=images&sort=1&o=29

    So, what a woman really wants her man to do is baldly assert his opinions, without any associated reasoning, just like she has been exampling all along …

    Why should we care what our wives want us to do? Why should we treat them as if they belong in our intellectual universe, as if they can appreciate it? Laconic practice is biblical. I got your sarcasm.

  151. myrealitie says:

    @feeriker – I didn’t come in here attacking anyone. I also haven’t said anything in wild opposition to the sentiments on this blog, just a variation in perspective. So I am a troll simply because I am a woman? Really?

    @deti – you know nothing about me and you conclude that I settled? It sounds like you want to believe (evidently simply because I am a woman) that I screwed up and am unhappy with my life and am paying for it. I am a total stranger to you and you seem to desperate to believe that about me. Why don’t you reflect on that for a few moments. It’s quite unbecoming.

  152. jf12 says:

    @Cail re: “I dare you.”

    I triple dog dare you!

    BTW it’s been done. Since I’ve been doing this aptical foddering these past few years, no less than a half dozen reports wives have reported on doing the sex-every-day thing as experiments, or rather dares, to see if it would work to improve their relationships. Every single one has reported marked improvement is sexual responsiveness, greater relationship satisfaction (w/ birds singing and flowers and sparkles in their eyes) and much much much happier husbands. And every single one has quit doing it on the last day they agreed to do it, without going into any great detail on why they were heaving sighs of relief. Every single one said “I’m glad to have done it, but I’m glad it’s over.”

    I’m thinking the part they hated was the husbands being happier.

  153. JDG says:

    freemansfarm77 says:
    August 4, 2014 at 9:02 am

    JDG:

    For one thing, John Adams was a chronic complainer. For another thing, he had an unusually strong woman for a wife. For a third thing, as Adams’ quote implies, by the late eighteenth century the era of true “patriarchy” was ending, especially in the more “progressive” nations like Great Britain and even more so in its ultra progressive frontier offshoot, the North American colonies.

    Do you have something I can read that might pull me over to your way of thinking? As it is I don’t see how being a chronic complainer would negate the power/influence women wield in a patriarchal family. Neither do I think that his wife was unusually strong. Maybe more outspoken than most, but maybe not. I also don’t see how Mr. Adams’ quote implies the approaching decent into gynocracy. It looked more like a warning not to change the status quo to me.

  154. cicero says:

    @ theasdgamer
    “I already indicated that his strategy is controversial. You added nothing but unnecessary words and your vote. Your vote + 50 cents is worth…50 cents.’
    No you said iffy. I only supported his views but hey if you are into getting like votes then your thinking is like that of a woman. No wonder you know their thoughts so well.

    “Maybe you could enlighten us lesser mortals about what you think the point is.”
    Us? What do you now speak for others as well or is that another feminine trait you learned through game? The point is that dread makes no point to being with. All you are doing with your hamster is trying to rationalize it.

    “So, why did you ignore my reference to the Song of Solomon after I showed its relevance? And why should I think that your reference is relevant to anything”
    Did you actually read the whole passage? You see this is the problem with Christian game users. They are so caught up in what women want that they can not see what God wants. What I highlighted was that game was the downfall of the wisest man on earth.
    1 Corinthians 3 “For the wisdom of this world is foolishness in God’s sight. As it is written: “He catches the wise in their craftiness”a ; 20and again, “The Lord knows that the thoughts of the wise are futile.”

    “You attack “hamster chasing,” i.e., understanding feminine psychology.
    *Facepalm.* It’s like talking to a feminist. You are putting words into my mouth. I said “More Bible” …”less hamster”..not once did I say no hamster or no understanding female psychology. So where did I exactly attack feminine psychology Dr Freud?

    “Then you mention that “confidence bumps up SMV in men.” By this reasoning, you are relying on understanding feminine psychology (women calculate a man’s SMV and we know from understanding women’s psychology that confidence increases a man’s SMV), which practice you have previously attacked”
    Actually try and read the above as written and not as you interpret it in your feminist mindset.

    “Your reasoning is unstable, given that you attack a practice, then do the same.”
    You ability to read what is written and follow logic is unstable. No wonder you are able to find game in the Bible to suit your ambitions.

    “This reframing would work if you had made your point, which you haven’t.”
    No as a Christian everything should be framed according to God’s will (God demands leadership for the husband all the time) and what I showed was that how to game women (according to your interpretation of the Bible) is of more importance to you than the will of God.

    “So, my question, which appeals for a biblical cite, remains unanswered.”
    No it was answered you just don’t like the answer and now you are in denial.

    “Check out your own Kings reference, there up above, bubba.”
    Bubba?… How banal. You might want to actually start reading your Bible with a God fearing mindset.

    “You might also consider: “There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.” verse 16 at”
    And none are as blind as those who do not wish to see. Remove that beam from your own eye first.

  155. jf12 says:

    BTW let’s agree on degrees of frigidity, shall we?
    1. Frozen solid. If it is a woman’s fault that a marriage is clinically sexless, i.e. 10 times per year or less, then she is a corpscicle.
    2. Freezing. If she manages to become (by her husband’s reckoning) slightly enthusiastic “up to” two or three time per month, and insists on not doing anything unless she is already enthusiastic, then she is frigid-ordinaire.
    3. Thawing. She has sex at least “a few” times per week at least “a few” weeks per month, tending towards double digits every month, but seldom if ever initiates.
    4. Thawed. Definitely double digits every month, every single month, repeating every single month no “time off for bad behavior”, and she initiates sometimes (by her husband’s reckoning), with no more than “a few” days maximum without sex per month.
    5. Warm. She has sex “a few” times per day regularly, e.g. “a few” times per month (by her husband’s reckoning), and she initiates regularly.
    6. Hot. She has sex “a few” times per day often, e.g. “a few” times per week (by her husband’s reckoning), and she initiates often.

  156. Opus says:

    I am surprised to learn that Abigail Adams was a strong woman. Certainly she never stopped complaining even though she was by any standards as privileged a woman in the new world as one can get. John Adams deals with her endless complaints very gently and wittily. There he is risking his life to establish the independence of the colonies and all she talks about apart from the endless complaining is the amorphous ‘remember the ladies ‘ as if somehow whilst Jefferson is drafting The Declaration of Independence (or was it the Constitution) he should fail to include a clause giving women exemption from all responsibility.

    I know she was your second lady and beyond criticism but the fat boy only married her because he had underestimated his own MMV (though he was obviously wrong about Nabby).

  157. theasdgamer says:

    @ cicero

    “I already indicated that his strategy is controversial. You added nothing but unnecessary words and your vote. Your vote + 50 cents is worth…50 cents.’
    No you said iffy. I only supported his views but hey if you are into getting like votes then your thinking is like that of a woman.

    Supporting a view merely by agreement is voting. Thinking that your vote adds anything means that you are thinking like a woman. I merely pointed it out, but whatever floats your boat.

    “Maybe you could enlighten us lesser mortals about what you think the point is.”
    Us? What do you now speak for others as well

    What, you think I’m the only person who doesn’t understand your vague points?

    The point is that dread makes no point to being with.

    Must be news to God.

    “Tell me, you whom my soul loves,
    where you pasture your flock,
    where you make it lie down at noon;” verse 7 of https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Song+of+Solomon+1&version=ESV

    She ain’t with the dude. She wants to know where she can find him. Logistics.

    “your name is oil poured out;
    therefore virgins love you.”

    verse 3; the dude has high status and is preselected; apex alpha, being the king and all

    “The voice of my beloved!
    Behold, he comes,
    leaping over the mountains,
    bounding over the hills.

    My beloved is like a gazelle
    or a young stag.”

    vv 8-9; the dude is far from the chick–he’s coming over to her place

    Enough of this for a mere comment–do your own homework.

  158. deti says:

    @ Myrealitie:

    “you know nothing about me and you conclude that I settled? It sounds like you want to believe (evidently simply because I am a woman) that I screwed up and am unhappy with my life and am paying for it. I am a total stranger to me and you seem to desperate to believe that about me. “

    I know what you described. You said:

    “I didn’t get married until I was 29 (which would disgust many of the people on this board) because it took that long for me to a) become a person with the character to be attractive to my husband, and it took that long for me to find someone with the qualities that I know I could be happy with for life (essentially, the right combination of alpha and beta traits). I was terrified of ending up with someone who either wouldn’t be attractive to me over the years or who would be unreliable and selfish.”

    You’re not a special snowflake. There’s really nothing all that unique about what you described. Basically you’re saying that you couldn’t attract an attractive man FOR MARRIAGE before you were in your late 20’s; and other things were more important to you than marriage until you were in your late 20s.

    Here’s how your paragraph comes out when I run it through the hamsterlator.

    “I didn’t get married until I was 29 because in my 20s, there were other things more important to me than being married until I got to my late 20s. I wasn’t ready to be a wife and I didn’t want to be a wife or do the work required to be a wife. The other thing was that I was having fun dating exciting men who I could not get to offer commitment to me. It was only when I got to be around 28 that I started getting serious about finding someone who was willing to actually take that step of offering commitment that I started considering such men.”

  159. Joey says:

    The fact that the numbers don’t lie, is what confronts feminists as a result of that spreadsheet being published.

    Except an attack on the nature of math, and spreadsheets, in 3…2…1…

  160. BuenaVista says:

    Wakeman: “I wish he had had the courage to talk to me.”

    Translation: “He was just a boy-man who refused to plead and convince me he was worthy of my sexual attention. That was so unfair! So like a man!”

    Spreadsheet Man’s effort at documentation may come in handy when negotiating his incipient divorce. However, resorting to litigation tactics to get laid at home, obviously, assumes that the wife has any interest in being fair or even self-aware, much less aware of the value of lifelong monogamy. Spreadsheet Man probably thought that Just Being Himself in a post-feminist marriage was a success strategy, while Mrs. Spreadsheet did her comparative shopping at the office, the gym, and while on the road. There is a point of no return in a woman’s attraction to a man, and it appears they crossed that rubicon a few minutes after they got hitched.

    As with ex-Mr. Wakeman, “Never complain, never explain” would seem to be a more productive approach.

  161. jf12 says:

    @BuenaVista, re: ““Never complain, never explain” would seem to be a more productive approach.”

    Wakeman herself claims that ex-Mr. Jessica correctly communicated his concerns by dumping her, which made her realize what she had been (not) doing and why, and made her regret (not) doing it, and she still thinks about him to this day because he dumped her like that.

  162. BuenaVista says:

    Greyghost: “She was sexually interested in him until she got the commitment.”

    I might have agreed with this a few years ago. In the interim I’ve received emails for several women to the effect of “If you won’t marry me I’m going to “settle”.” Two of them even sent pictures of the guys they were threatening to marry. Lane changers change lanes, and rationalize easily their marrying gullible, manageable men — for whom they have no sexual desire.

  163. myrealitie says:

    @deti – I definitely do think that I became more attractive in my mid to late 20′s due developments in my character and attitudes. I know that if I had met my husband in my late teens or early twenties instead of at 26 that he wouldn’t have dated me due to my bratty attitude.
    I am really glad that I got my act together while I was still young and pretty enough to attract someone as great as my husband. Entirely separately, yes, I don’t think I encountered someone as special (to me) as him prior to meeting him. Maybe I was just got lucky with all of the timing.

    In any case, my personal story is not the point. What I want to know is why you would attack me for sharing it? I shared it simply to defend a different accusation in which I was accused of wanting to be married simply for status and not caring about the man. I would rather be single than married to man that I didn’t respect and who I didn’t feel love for (yes, I unabashedly admit that I want to feel love and attraction in my marriage), but of course women want to get married for status. I never denied that.

    I’ve not really said anything I find to be controversial. In summary all I’ve said was that duty sex is not as good as mutual attraction, which I believe is a perfectly attainable goal. It sounds like a lot of the people here simply don’t believe that it is an attainable goal. Or maybe they believe that people are supposed to suffer in the name of duty.

    And for the record, I typically want sex a little bit more than my husband, to be honest. He is not American, maybe that has something to do with it. Americans tend to have androgynous, unsexy marriages, in my view.

  164. And every single one has quit doing it on the last day they agreed to do it, without going into any great detail on why they were heaving sighs of relief. Every single one said “I’m glad to have done it, but I’m glad it’s over.”

    I’m thinking the part they hated was the husbands being happier.

    Oh, I think they’d like for their husbands to be happy, or they wouldn’t have considered it in the first place. We’re talking about the better ones here, not the worst. But as much as they want their husbands to be happy, they want even more to control their own lives, especially in that critical area where the submission is pretty overt. If a woman’s husband can point at her and say “Now” and she will drop whatever she’s doing and put her ankles over her head, there’s no way for her to frame that as anything other than submission, and her sinful human nature will always be to fight against that.

  165. hurting says:

    Dalrock says:
    August 4, 2014 at 10:09 am

    I totally get your point about some of the things that fathers and husbands taking on does not necessarily make them better than previous generations. To clarify, I’d suggest that by and large men have parlayed the technological advances of modern society into contributing more to the family unit than women as a group. This has included ‘helping out’ more with non-traditional roles (at least for men).

  166. Don's Johnson says:

    You can always tell when Dalrock hits a nerve. The hamsters come out in full force.

  167. deti says:

    Myrealitie:

    So what you’re saying is: I’m “attacking” you because I laid out an accurate description of your backstory, laid bare so the underlying motivations are clearly apparent.

    Take note of this, gentlemen: providing accurate accounts of a woman’s underlying motivatios for doing or not doing something is considered by a woman to be an “attack”.

    And once again: stop misrepresenting what I wrote about how women view marriage; or about how you view your marriage. I didn’t say you didn’t care about your husband. I said that given your descriptions, being married was more important than the identity of the man himself.

    If I’m wrong, why are you so agitated about it?

  168. JDG says:

    Apologies in advance to all the guys reading here for further encouraging 1king.

    1king says:
    August 4, 2014 at 10:02 am

    Are you a foreigner to the USA? I ask because I am having difficulty understanding your post here, yet much of what you seem to propose strongly resembles feminist manure salvos commonly found in the thought process of the modern western female.

    It sounds like you are trying to repeat the usual “men are selfish pigs” and “it’s all men’s fault” screed that we hear from feminists most anytime they are trying to communicate something.

    The NT scripture you referenced is instructing Christian husbands to live with their wives in an understanding way, showing them honor as the weaker vessel, so that our prayers won’t be hindered. For a moment I thought you were trying to write something along the lines of a husband should be trying to understand and care for his wife, but to be honest the words are a bit confusing.

    Maybe you are trying to say that, instead of following the Bible, men are accusing their wives of bad behavior, and that’s why the wives are leaving. I’ll repeat what has already been pointed out. Maybe wives are not being held accountable for bad behavior, and that is why they are leaving. That is what the evidence in the real world would indicate. I’m sorry if the evidence conflicts with your personal experiences.

    I’m also sorry your husband didn’t give you the sex you required. If he was a Christian, then he should have given you what was due. You said “I’m beautiful” amidst that dialogue I struggled to comprehend, so I am having trouble understanding why a normal healthy man would have trouble performing his marital duties to a beautiful woman he was married to. Your not one of these woman who are “fat and beautiful” are you. Not that you being fat would give him a pass, it’s just that you have to admit it could make it harder for him to be able to perform.

    Lastly, if you were a religious Torah observant Christian, then why did you divorce your husband? Stop playing the fool and go back to him.

  169. BuenaVista says:

    JF, agreed, Wakeman scans like an alpha-widow. I’m not sure she has figured out the real meaning of her being dumped, however. Because she *still* thinks that an Evolved Man would negotiate with her for her sexual favors. She still feels cheated by his dumping her, and still thinks her magic vagina obligates men to either negotiate sexual access or simply accept her vagina-whims.

    *****

    To support many of Deti’s comments here I would add: How many of you know women who have stayed married for the sex, versus women who stayed married for the status? (Status’ derivatives: resource provisioning and children.) I don’t know a single woman who has stayed married for the sex. I know a lot who divorce but still want sex.

    The most stable marriages I know of are explicitly founded on status: realized and potential status. This is one reason why the most stable marriages in our society (those of the cognitive elite, typically UMC) reflect an unremitting patronizing of the men as benign doofuses, and are largely sexless. And why, when those men prove uncompetitive with the provisioning potential of other men, even those marriages end.

  170. jf12 says:

    @Cail re: “there’s no way for her to frame that as anything other than submission, and her sinful human nature will always be to fight against that.”

    True, but supposing (!) she is trying to be an authentically good Christian wife, why wouldn’t she welcome the opportunity to submit this way, the more the merrier?

  171. BuenaVista says:

    @myrealitie, if you’re going to present your life story as support for a disputable premise, people are going to provide their interpretation of your life story. If that’s an “attack” on you and your marriage, perhaps you should preface your personal disclosures by saying “No one may comment on my life story except me. It’s a grrrl thing and you wouldn’t understand. Now listen up.”

  172. jf12 says:

    @BV re: Mr. Not-Wakeman and being dumped.

    Luckily, so to speak, the story isn’t far back in the lists.

    http://www.thefrisky.com/2014-05-07/true-story-i-am-sponsoring-my-husband-for-immigration/

    The current husband used the same dumping technique, inexplicably ditching her for no actual reason given (hint: the real reason wasn’t “He feared loving me so much …”), making her so overjoyed upon his return from incommunicado-land that she began trying to please him in every way. Especially after he *kept* going away, with his friends, to other cities, to make fun with them instead of her, while calling her and telling her sometimes that he wished he wasn’t having fun, with his friends, away from her. So of course they got married right away.

  173. joshtheaspie says:

    @Aniay
    “is this true? Do men see married life to pleasant, attractive, submissive women as a life of drudgery?”

    I think he’s coming at this from another angle. Many men see 50+ hour weeks (including commute), or the inability to quit a job they don’t like due to responsibilities for others as drudgery. Compare this to the much lower effort a man who only needs to support himself needs to take. He might work fewer hours, at a more enjoyable job.

    In my understanding, the commenter “embracing reality” is saying that this is too high a cost for the admittedly pleasant outcome of “steady sex from a pleasant, attractive, submissive wife”.

    He is not saying that such an outcome is, itself, drudgery.

  174. True, but supposing (!) she is trying to be an authentically good Christian wife, why wouldn’t she welcome the opportunity to submit this way, the more the merrier?

    For the same reason any one of us trying to be a good Christian doesn’t welcome every opportunity to do the right thing. I don’t always, do you? If good Christians always did the right thing we wouldn’t need confession.

    And the sin we’re discussing isn’t just any old sin, it’s the big one for women, the one that got Eve in trouble and that women have been cursed with ever since. And that most of their family, friends, and other influences encourage them in every day. For many women, it’s the only way they’ve ever known.

    I’m not absolving them, just explaining.

  175. jbro1922 says:

    Re: Mr. Not-Wakeman

    Sounds like she’s only counting what he says. It appears to her he dumped her for no reason because he didn’t say anything, didn’t talk to her about it.

    Re: the take on myrealitie’s story

    I think if most women were honest with themselves, they would see that the reason they are not married is because they don’t prioritize it. I know it’s been said on this blog before that there is no real path to Christian marriage for a lot of women, hence a lot of women just trying stuff and waking up married.

  176. Dalrock says:

    @BuenaVista

    Wakeman scans like an alpha-widow.

    This doesn’t fit, because she tells us she didn’t have time/wasn’t in the mood, etc. This is what makes her harping on this so interesting. She had him tucked away in beta orbiter boyfriend mode, or so she thought. He recognized this and instead of complaining simply walked. She hadn’t considered that possible, and it still stings today.

  177. RMM says:

    One thing to note is the whole “he didn’t communicate”, “he should have voiced his concerns”, and all the jazz that is being spouted by the loudest femmes. On paper it may sound like sensible advice, but in practice it’s not what it seems.

    What they’re really saying is that they want the man to warn them when they’re overplaying their hand. They want to know because what they really want is to dry the sex up as much as possible. They don’t want to give more than the absolutely minimum they can, the mere thought of it would be abhorrent! Why, have sex with their boring, beta husbands? Ick!

    Think of it as a negotiation. They complain because they want the husband to give up his entire hand – how much is enough, how little is too little – so they can negotiate from a position of strength.

    And as Rollo says, desire can’t be negotiated. The bottom line is they don’t desire their husbands.

  178. Bluepillprofessor says:

    @JF12: The power of No! is the power to hurt the man. That is what women do not want exposed: the fact that they *know* they are hurting the man they profess to love. That is why they do NOT want actual calendars: they can plausibly deny “I don’t think it’s really been that long” even while tittering behind their hands. They enjoy making men suffer, but do not enjoy it exposed. Slut-shaming doesn’t hold a candle to sadist-shaming.

    I maintain that this is the primary reason women deny sex to their husbands. They are HURTING the man and THIS gives them a little rush of power and the dopamine dose God intended them to get from sex. This is why a detached, IDGAF attitude works so well. If the cruel, manipulative bully is not getting a reaction from her victim where is the fun in that? What happened to my dopamine hit? Wait, you mean my meal ticket may start looking for other mouths to feed? I wonder what would happen if I get with the program and actually follow God’s laws?

    @Deti: Truth: A lot of women are marrying men they just aren’t all that into.

    Throughout history women have been paired up with men they are not all that into. God, evolution, or both created Women to be RESPONSIVE. A wife might not be charged up about sexing her man but if she gives in to ‘duty sex’ (as was required by every successful society and all major religions in the history of the world) they often warm up and find they actually enjoy themselves. Physically, injections of semen through unprotected sex give her testosterone that ramps up the sex drive significantly.

    @1Kingofkings: I understand there are some women who are not getting the sex they want in marriage. That number is about 10% of the number of men who are not getting the sex they want in marriage. Your perspective is appreciated but let’s try to keep it in the perspective that it belongs.

    @theasdgamer: “Do you have any biblical evidence that a man _increasing_ leadership will make him more attractive to a woman?”

    Other than the Song of Solomon the Bible does not discuss sexual desire except in Genesis (your desire shall be for your husband). Dalrock, and the manosphere blogs are based on personal experiences and picking out what works from the labor of PUA’s. There is very little scientific research and very little Biblical authority on female sexual arousal. We just do what works and yes, increasing leadership makes a man more attractive to a woman. If this were not true then strong, put-together leaders of men would not slay the squeeze boxes and the Beta Stubs would be getting sexed up all they want. Proof of absence is not absence of proof.

    On Duty sex: Just….Do….It. Women are RESPONSIVE. For thousands of years the advice to wives was some form of: “Lay there and think of England.” Now it is: “Only have sex when YOU feel like it…you go giiirrrrrl.” This is what Paul meant by “submission.” A wife who puts on a ring and takes vows AGREES TO SUBMIT SEXUALLY TO HER HUSBAND. A wife who refuses to honor her vows has broken them just as if she took another lover. Even worse, her sexual denial is predicated on disrespect and often anger and outright antipathy towards her husband.

    On the other hand, a wife who sexually submits to her husband and elevates him with her feminine power is likely to find that he is attractive after all. The Biblical way is always correct.

    I have maintained before and do so again: A husband who “cheats” on a perpetually denying and frigid wife is not “cheating” in the normal sense of the word. The agreement has already been broken in the civil sense. In the religious sense she is no longer under the protection of God’s laws and since she is being unfaithful I believe he has every right to declare the contract null and void.

  179. jf12 says:

    @Cail re: “every opportunity”

    Slipping up occasionally is the total opposite of usually trying to, er, not slip up. Hence her *usually* trying to be submissive, like just about every single day, like 90% of all days, would be fine. Her 90% effort would be acceptable, an A minus grade perhaps.The problem is when she believes she can skate by on her thin 10% effort, even though that is far below flunking, F-minus-minus-minus.

  180. BuenaVista says:

    Dalrock 4:28: Agreed, if we define the term as “best lay ever.” But I have a broader definition of alpha-widow. The fact appears to be that he is still living rent-free in her head. As shown by JF12 (linking to her backstory) his acting unilaterally and abruptly *in his sovereignty* as a man, literally changed her life.

    In this respect he didn’t simply demonstrate detachment. He demonstrated an “enlightened detachment”, in the sense that the Stoics used. I put Epictetus and Marcus Aurelius et al in the alpha category, as I would any Christian (per Proverbs 31) who declines to “spend his strength” on a woman. It is this quality that marked her indelibly.

  181. Well I was saving this link for an upcoming post but I’ll drop it here now:

    http://nypost.com/2012/11/25/nobody-marries-their-best-sex-ever/

    According to a recent study by iVillage, less than half of wedded women married the person who was the best sex of their lives (52 percent say that was an ex.) In fact, 66 percent would rather read a book, watch a movie or take a nap than sleep with a spouse.

  182. Dalrock says:

    @RMM

    One thing to note is the whole “he didn’t communicate”, “he should have voiced his concerns”, and all the jazz that is being spouted by the loudest femmes. On paper it may sound like sensible advice, but in practice it’s not what it seems.

    What they’re really saying is that they want the man to warn them when they’re overplaying their hand.

    Exactly.

  183. jf12 says:

    re: Can’t we all just come together in Unity?

    http://gizmodo.com/oculus-rift-finally-lets-you-rest-your-head-on-an-anime-1615714367

    Unity-chan will virtually kick you in your head if you try to get away from her even for a second.

    On the other hand, the one that isn’t being used,

    http://en.rocketnews24.com/2014/08/02/beautiful-when-shes-angry-tv-series-features-model-yelling-at-the-camera-and-nothing-else/

    Risa Yoshiki will scream and yell at you incomprehensibly (to me) uninterruptedly for long minutes, to give more like the Real Girlfriend experience.

  184. JF12, true, on this matter especially, most husbands would be thrilled with 90% submission.

  185. Gunner Q says:

    I’m with jf12. There are sins of weakness and sins of malice, and the results of a wife’s sexual behavior are much more immediate than Christianity’s “rewards after death” system. The submissive wife gets “happy husband” results almost instantly; the frigid wife gets a front-row seat to how miserable she is making her husband, how she is punishing him for being sexually faithful, and she must be cold in more ways than one to extend his misery daily.

  186. @deti – I definitely do think that I became more attractive in my mid to late 20’s due developments in my character and attitudes. I know that if I had met my husband in my late teens or early twenties instead of at 26 that he wouldn’t have dated me due to my bratty attitude.
    I am really glad that I got my act together while I was still young and pretty enough to attract someone as great as my husband. Entirely separately, yes, I don’t think I encountered someone as special (to me) as him prior to meeting him. Maybe I was just got lucky with all of the timing.

    Not really, you were just in your convenient Epiphany Phase.

    http://therationalmale.com/2012/12/19/the-epiphany-phase/

  187. What they’re really saying is that they want the man to warn them when they’re overplaying their hand.

    That’s why “power” is the correct word here. The only better word might be “control.” They like being in control of the marriage, and whether they admit it or not, they know that sex is at the heart of that. Whoever controls the sex controls the marriage.

    Women used to have a soft “control” by making their husbands happy enough that they would in turn do what they could to make their wives happy. But girls now are taught from a young age — which plays right into their sin nature — that the only control worth having is overt, masculine control. If they aren’t controlling their marriages, plus holding 50% of the political positions, university chairs, corporate board seats, and so on, they’re still little more than slaves and must keep striving to take more control in all areas.

  188. jf12 says:

    @BV re: sovereignty. With no dependents (other than my wife), and her having no one else in the world to whom she could turn (being on the outs with both her sisters this week, and both her parents having passed away in recent years), I could do a lot of acting “unilaterally and abruptly” for perhaps the first time in my life with the least possibility of hearing about ramifications from anyone else. In the past, there was always the bare possibility that if I disappeared for several days without explanation, and incommunicado, that I’d return to find she’d gone home to mother, for example.

    But, it’s hard for me to be that way, and I don’t think it’s strictly from lack of practice at being free.

  189. JDG says:

    They cannot and will not admit that they’re pissed because the hawt guys who rocked their worlds in the sack would not marry them.

    They also cannot / will not admit that they gave away what should have been saved for their husbands, and that there is a word for a woman who does that.

    In a saner world, women who sleep around before marriage would not be able to marry so easily.

  190. Think about this for a moment; read through the comments here and elsewhere and notice the commonalities of men in ‘acceptable’ marriages wherein they hold the Frame of that relationship. One thing you’ll see is that each of these marriages maintains a degree of competition anxiety, most due to at least a passive sense of dread on the wife’s part. This situation, the satisfying / acceptable marriage mirrors that of a relationship in non-exclusive dating and long-term, unmarried, monogamy.

    Essentially a good marriage is one in which both parties behave as, and have the tacit understanding of, a non-married or dating couple.

    So what’s the advantage of marriage if the underlying behavioral set of a good marriage mirrors that of being single anyway? When the overwhelming consensus and even feminine social convention expectation is that sex tapers off after marriage, why get married if you know that the power dynamic will shift away from what will make for a good marriage?

    Equality or complementarity, the basis remains the same; good marriages are the ones in which the couple retain the sexual anxiety and urgency of being single.

  191. JDG says:

    Who she’s married to is less important than the fact that she is married.

    But the status of the husband is important to the female because it effects her status, as demonstrated by women who are using his status to show off or to dis each other.

  192. JDG says:

    She doesn’t understand that his niceness and stability are the reason he doesn’t excite her. She just thinks it’s a coincidence and a bad string of luck on her part that the exciting guys she’s met happen to be thugs.

    The curse of the fruits of feminism (sexual freedom for sluts modern women).

  193. jf12 says:

    @Rollo, re: “good marriages are the ones in which the couple retain the sexual anxiety and urgency of being single.”

    And the way, the way, to accomplish that is to make her Dread his loss by him retaining/achieving sufficient sovereignty that he is completely free to walk away from her whenever he might so choose. Which is not marriage.

  194. jf12 says:

    Are most men only truly sovereign in their “happy place”? Is that why that is their “happy place”?

  195. jf12 says:

    Remember when the “happy place” was outlawed? “No, you can’t just come home and put you slippers on and zone out. You have to listen to her frame-by-frame replay of the ten hours of her life that you’ve been gone. And you have to nod your head once in a while, too.”

  196. theasdgamer says:

    @ jf12

    You have to listen to her frame-by-frame replay of the ten hours of her life that you’ve been gone.

    Her miserable boredom wants company. heh

  197. MarcusD says:

    @myrealitie aka 1kingofkings
    Spreadsheet husband wasn’t turning his wife on anymore either by lacking the skills required to activate her sexuality

    Perhaps he hasn’t had much practice. I wonder what the root of that is.

  198. JDG says:

    He is not American, maybe that has something to do with it. Americans tend to have androgynous, unsexy marriages, in my view.

    I’m already having a hard time accepting that American men are still trying to marry American women, now I read this. This guy wasn’t even American and he married an American woman. Why would anyone from another country come here and put a gun to his own head that way? Oh wait… is he Canadian? If he’s Canadian then never mind.

  199. JDG says:

    MarcusD says:
    August 4, 2014 at 5:53 pm

    Marcus how do the turn out on the analyzer?

  200. JDG says:

    the = they

  201. theasdgamer says:

    Probably the most painful thing JW felt was that she had been dumped by a beta–her pain put the slut herd into total shock. Not only was she frigid, but she was dumped by a beta. That makes her a total leper. Totally.

    …before we realize it, the no’s can add up into a long yoga pant drawstring of days and weeks. Months. Suddenly we are counting back on fingers, and toes…and with a sickening sense of worry, we can’t even remember the last time we had said YES to a roll in the hay.

    And it comes out that, for too many wives, the priority of sex is below cleaning the attic. NAWALT.

    Rollo helpfully points out that some form of Dread is important for “acceptable” marriages. Mrs. Gamer seems very happy most of the time since I used Dread. Dread was like surgery in that it caused temporary virtual bleeding, but resulted in better marital health. Nevertheless, I still retain my options, as does Mrs. Gamer. She was “hit on” at a dance that we went to when a man danced too close to her and made her uncomfortable. A few women deliberately danced close to me, but there was no discomfort. The closeness of a dance is supposed to be up to the woman. One of my partners who wanted to dance close was an attractive, petite blonde who danced rib to rib and hip to hip. Yeah, I’m smiling thinking about her. I still flirted with Mrs. Gamer when we danced.

  202. jf12 says:

    Not at all snarkily, marriage for women now IS the power to say NO! without fear of him dumping her. It has no other meaning for women.

  203. jf12 says:

    Sometimes my wife makes me watch Hannah and Kaylee with her. This was one of the times I laughed with her.

  204. Just Saying says:

    The problem for women is their sexual power can be difficult to effectively wield

    It has been made even more difficult that young women take what they hear at face value, and demand nothing for basically providing an endless supply of pu**y, if the man will take advantage of it. Society tries to shame him into not doing so by calling him all sorts of names, but the fact is that young women have the most valuable asset, and are giving it away for free to any man that is willing, to put in any effort. Thus women collectively have lost most of their real power when it comes to roping a man into marriage and controlling him – IF he understands she is playing a losing game where her most valuable asset was basically used up long ago. Of course, by the time a woman realizes this it is too late for her to do anything about it, since there are always young women out there that want to “enjoy life” and sample what is available to them.

    Any man that puts his “happiness” into the hands of one woman is a fool, and is actually demanding too much of her. Get what you need for a lot of women, and then the women feel happy to provide you with what you want from them. The key is to avoid her feeling used by not “demanding” anything from her – she has to offer with no strings attached. That is the best way to go through life – like the bee getting pollen from any flower that is offering… :)

  205. Exfernal says:

    After a little Googling for:
    – Custom Maid 3D,
    – Ju-C Air (ahem) controller,
    – Oculus Rift,
    – some artistic inspiration;
    what does “the principle of least effort” dictate?

    The future looks interesting… as in the saying “May you live in interesting times”.

  206. TFH says:

    I interpret this topic along the lines of a woman’s sexuality having some elasticity. Until very recently, a woman’s demand was always seen as inelastic.

    One of the other problems of ‘feminism’ for women is the tremendous erosion of the erotic capital of all women in the 5-8 range. There was a time when even seeing a woman’s knee could arouse a man. Now, quite a few men are ‘meh’ even when seeing an 8 naked.

    I am amazed at how, 50-60 years ago, people were mesmerized by black and white photos of Mae West and other actresses of the time. By today’s standards, she is not that attractive, and her footage was black and white to boot.

    The introduction of an elasticity curve in the demand that women generate, and the flattening of that curve, is a huge implication for sexuality in the modern era. There are many factors that are making the male brain even more picky.

  207. 1kingofkings says:

    @TFH or lack of attraction could be the availability of the 3D porn and any porn you men want to consume. Hell, men are going impotent for the real thing because of their addiction to porn.

    http://yourbrainonporn.com/erectile-dysfunction-question

    I guess if the virtual is what you want, them be happy wth that…

  208. 1kingofkings says:

    JDG Sorry to disappoint, but we are two separate females- just proves that we have the same mentality as a woman. I tried to explain that we are very different from males but this other woman and I have the same perspective…

  209. of feeling insecure and vulnerable to being neglected (as in the harem model). So women try to control things in their marriage so that they feel more secure, but the side effect of that is losing attraction. So I concede that women seek power in this way.

    This. Never trusting God. Never Accepting the simple yet profound fact that whatever it is that a man is doing, in the triviality of managing time on a Saturday by suggesting they tackle tasks in a certain order, to decisions about money and church and such, most men are executing a longer range plan than women ever even consider. She weighs choices in the moment, let’s her feelings react to the one next thing, and digs in that he is obstinate and controlling. Years pass, he has seen himself proven a good planner and strategist time and again, suffering consequences of yielding to her control, occasionally even pointing it out……to no avail. He is willing and able to take the load, bear the responsibility, things that would make her feel what she claims she wantsrom ….safe….secure….able to rest in his good intentions. But most women bend only a little over a lifetime.

    I chuckled when I reAad the thread linked from Catholic forums about women sinning. One woman said men choose British sins because of our nature. Blissfully unaware that women’s proclivities are simply not tempered becUse they are not held to account….at all

  210. myrealitie says:

    @Rollo I read your post. Sure, I had an epiphany, but fortunately for me it came around 23. I tend to be a realist/a bit cynical, and I guess it worked out for me in this arena of my life. I figured out pretty early that very “alpha” men were unlikely to commit, and in the event that they did very likely to cheat and/or be generally selfish. This realization actually made them romantically uninteresting to me fairly early in my dating life, and I’m proud of that because it allowed me to create a happy life. (This post by Dalrock really embodies how I feel about this: http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/08/14/so-you-want-alpha/)
    I maintained my disgust with very beta men, though. People pleasing/conflict avoidance is the heart of the worst of it. I think there is a nice group of men that are in a really perfect zone, and I’ve always tried to encourage my single friends to focus on them. They typically do/did not listen, but some do/did.

    I also want to respond to this comment: “Essentially a good marriage is one in which both parties behave as, and have the tacit understanding of, a non-married or dating couple.” I agree that people in marriage have to behave as if they could be left at any time and that they have the ability to leave at any time. In fact, this is explicit in my own marriage, (we are not religious). We look at marriage as an honest intent to build a life with another person which can be terminated by either party at any time. I believe this stance encourages people to be their best possible selves. This attitude extends beneficially to many other areas of life as well, in my view (such as with regard to employment). It also creates a really special kind of intimacy where you know you are choosing and feel chosen, every day.

    Unfortunately this approach does pose a problem for religious couples and my be ought right preposterous to them. Please do not attack me for sharing it, people of this board. I’m not here to harm anyone. I am really just very interested in sustainable and happy relationships and the mechanics of human relationships, and I enjoy debating about it.

  211. Jen says:

    Scott’s post at 10:51 is terrific. That said, how the idea of a man’s sex drive being ‘evil’—Feminism, again? But the Bible seems very clear to me that it is good for a man and wife to come together very often; Paul warns against denying one’s body to one’s spouse, and indeed says not to save for a brief, mutually agreed-upon time of prayer and fasting. So I don’t get it. But having come out of a Word-Faith-Pentecostal church, I know how crazy and wrong churches can be.

    Honestly, if a woman loves her husband, even if she’s NOT in the mood, she’ll be more than happy to acquiesce simply out of her love for and desire to please him & make him happy (which ought to, by default, make her even happier she said yes). And this is not “duty sex” or “Oh, FINE” sex, but “All right, Sweetheart!” and happily off the couple goes. IMO there is no room for the “duty” or grudging sex in marriage, because the woman is only “giving” grudgingly, and that is not giving at all, and may be just as cruel as denying. I wouldn’t like it if my husband acted that way. (God loves a cheerful giver! Perhaps that ought to be embroidered onto bedsheets…)

    I remember Dr. Laura, years and years ago, pointing out that never in her life had she, after telling a woman how important and meaningful sex is to a man, heard that woman come back and say she’d regretted making love to her husband after the fact, that the woman didn’t even remember she “wasn’t feeling it” shortly after things got going because she was having a good time. Always seemed like a good point to me.

    Once again, Dalrock, (my husband and) I really appreciate your blog. BTW, are you reading Robert Stacy McCain’s posts on feminism over at his blog? If not, they’re well, WELL worth your while. I run into militant feminists all of the time. Between here & there I’m learning a lot and it is putting me in a far better position to counter their foolishness.

  212. myrealitie says:

    @JDG – he is Italian. I’m not sure that modern Italian women are much better than American women in the way that you mean. In fact, they may even currently be worse because they are coming into feminism at a lag and therefore not yet at the phase where some women are rejecting it.

  213. 1king. It’s not about “perspective”. That’s just a word women use to cover the fact the they are making ridiculous statements , casting about from one cloud to another in their ever present emotional maelstrom. Each point seeks to create in you a certain feeling. Once you hit pay dirt you stay there awhile.
    You are also spewing conventional wisdom that you have picked up from other women. Some states something, sends you a link…….nope….that’s not why you accept and repeat it……but add that it seems right, feels right, doesn’t ever challenge your basic set of assumptions……THAT is your perspective by the way, not the rambling pedestrian proclamations you keep posting…..this wisdom is a comfy chair. You want to stay in it.
    Like a fish has no idea it is wet, you swim in an ocean of third hand talking points and treat them as Supreme Court briefs.

  214. TFH says:

    Women should have to compete with new threats to their power position, just like men have had to.

    At present, in the West today, there is a power imbalance that favors women.

  215. Cane Caldo says:

    Rollo said:

    Equality or complementarity, the basis remains the same; good marriages are the ones in which the couple retain the sexual anxiety and urgency of being single.

    If this was correct, then No Fault Divorce would be the bellows of marriage; sucking the oxygen of anxiety out of the temporal atmosphere and stoking marriages ever hotter. It is not. No Fault Divorce, anxiety, and fleeting desires (“urgency”) are streams of piss on marriage forge.

  216. JDG says:

    myrealitie says:
    August 4, 2014 at 8:24 pm

    Are the family courts in Italy as Misandric as they are here, and do the women over there look down upon men in general like they do here? I’m genuinely curious. It would really suck if the rest of the world were starting to treat men like they do here and in Canada.

  217. jf12 says:

    @myrealitie re: preposterous marriage.

    A “marriage” in which you are free to leave is a contradiction in terms. That is no marriage. It’s something else, a fwb sort of, but not as good as a fwb.

  218. jf12 says:

    @Cane re: “No Fault Divorce would be the bellows of marriage.”

    If only I had a bigger hammer …

  219. jf12 says:

    I think we are all in agreement that when the woman perceives she is empowered and can walk away, then she inevitably loses libido in a ltr after the honeymoon period. It’s not debatable.

    But what about the man? What if she perceives that she cannot walk away, but that he could?

  220. jf12 says:

    Since low sex situations are so very common, so very majority behavior from women, the glibness of MMSL’s advice to Mr. Awesomes to shore up their weakpoints in hopes of their wives “staying” attracted are seen to be far too glib indeed. Since almost all frigidity is strictly punishment from her for him being a man, and NOT filling a “need” of hers for less sex, it follows that almost all female *affairs* are also strictly punishment from her and not filling a “need” of hers.

  221. 1kingofkings says:

    Empatholifism you’re seriously delusional if you think I’m getting this thirdhand- this is first-hand experience from my own mind- I’m tired of you people not even looking at the evidence. Live in your own stupid hell.

  222. 1kingofkings says:

    TFH WHAT A JOKE TO THINK THAT FEMALES HAVE THE POWER TODAY- YOU’RE DELUSIONAL!!

  223. James K says:

    @deti

    Every time this issue of female attraction is brought up, women run screaming for their pillows and teddy bears.

    They just cannot handle the truth about their own sexual attraction. They just can’t.

    This is absolutely true. The women who tell us that men have a “madonna/whore” complex suffer from the same affliction themselves; and they resolve the conflict by declaring their own behavior to be entirely madonna-like. To sustain this belief requires a huge amount of rationalization.

  224. TFH says:

    myrealite,

    lol way to put words in my mouth.

    deti’s words are easily the best thing you have put in your mouth in ages.

    You simply have no understanding of how women think. And no, being a woman does not mean you know how women think – quite the opposite, in fact.

    If you read the articles and comments here, you might start to learn how women think.

  225. jf12 says:

    Meg Conley, one of the female advocates of “Sex Every Day!” to improve your relationship, admits her suggestion of sex every day “was “kind of facetious” because it’s more about being intimate daily than actually having sex”.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/07/28/sex-every-day-for-a-month_n_5628068.html

    So she demanded, and got from her husband, the right to a scheduled time of being physically intimate daily, and she demanded, and got, the right to refuse to have sex *anyway*, and she demanded, and got, the right to call the experiment off after a month even though it was working.

  226. @Cane, or anyone else, what do you think results in the most intense, memorable sexual experience for a married couple; A preplanned, Date Night, where the kids are dropped off at grandma’s, the dinner reservations are made and all spontaneity is replaced with the scheduled intent and responsibility of “keeping it fresh”

    OR

    The urgent, anxious, “makeup” sex after a separation or an incident that brought a couple perilously close to a very real breakup?

    Which do you think results in more unplanned pregnancies? Which do you think women will say makes for hotter, more “in to it” sex?

  227. jf12 says:

    This “Ultimate Challenge” woman failed to have sex the first two days, and only two of the first seven days. The rest of the month wasn’t much better.

    http://www.chicagonow.com/red-company/2013/08/the-30-day-sex-challenge-day-1/

  228. feeriker says:

    “No, you can’t just come home and put you slippers on and zone out. You have to listen to her frame-by-frame replay of the ten hours of her life that you’ve been gone. And you have to nod your head once in a while, too.”

    Hah! If only it involved nothing more than listening to her bitch and moan. That WOULD be “chilling” or “zoning out,” relatively speaking.

    Instead you’re much more likely to get nagged about some honey-do list item (or several) that, for some reason, she thinks need(s) to be done that evening. The fact that you’ve just been through a workday that makes the term “hell on earth” seem like a picture of paradise means nothing to her. That’s your problem, not hers.

  229. jf12 says:

    Lest anyone think my monomania is limited, let it be known that my overexcitabilities are vast and possibly unmatched.

    It turns out women treat every “Ultimate Challenge” the same way, whether it’s the “Ultimate Challenge” of fixing some part of a real sit-down meal every day for a month, or dragging their carcasses to the tub for a real bath every day for a month, and it matters not the level of involvement of the man. If it’s something she feels she *ought* to do, she WILL rebel.

  230. anonymous_ng says:

    http://www.babble.com/best-recipes/what-i-learned-after-taking-a-homeless-mother-grocery-shopping/

    “Driving by these women, I can’t help but see my own story in theirs. I unexpectedly found myself a single mom a few years ago,…”

    http://mormonstories.org/john-and-brooke-mclay-from-ces-to-ex-mormons/

    http://www.cheekykitchen.com/2013/04/caramelized-brussell-sprout-salad-a-few-burning-answers.html

    Does any woman expect to be a single mom? Regardless, the image evoked by her quote seems at odds with her discussion of her divorce in the third link.

    Hamster Hamster Hamster Time.

  231. TFH says:

    I unexpectedly found myself a single mom a few years ago,…”

    Amazing how so many different women communicate the same way. A man was destroyed, and the woman denys her own actions, flipping the frame to one of ‘unexpectedly finding herself in a situation SHE created’.

    The plus side of this is that if a man starts communicating this way with women, he can get away with a LOT. Even if he cheats on his wife, if he talks in terms of ‘unfortunate things happened’, and ‘I found myself XXXXX’, then he plugs into the female mode of communication, which women themselves cannot pinpoint accountability towards.

  232. feeriker says:

    Does any woman expect to be a single mom?

    Not only do many expect it, they proudly plan for it (“I don’t need no stinkin’ man!”) and wear it like a badge of honor.

    I recall reading one of JudgyBitch’s offerings a year or so ago where she cited a survey that seemed to indicate that almost no one believed single motherhood was a good idea. That made me question the integrity of the survey (what were the population sources and sampling base/sizes?). For something that nobody thinks is a good idea, it sure seems popular with a whole hell of a lot of women.

  233. MarcusD says:

    Accepting my Husband (If you don’t love your husband or aren’t happy, life is short and you should move on in your life, on to bigger and better things.)

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=900786

    Klinefelter’s Syndrome and dating (Hmmm…)

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=900869

    Women’s fashion and sin

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=900873

  234. JDG says:

    I’m tired of you people not even looking at the evidence.

    Where is this evidence? Sources please.

  235. JDG says:

    this is first-hand experience from my own mind

    Oh…. Okay….never mind.

  236. Cane Caldo says:

    @Rollo

    @Cane, or anyone else, what do you think results in the most intense, memorable sexual experience for a married couple; A preplanned, Date Night, where the kids are dropped off at grandma’s, the dinner reservations are made and all spontaneity is replaced with the scheduled intent and responsibility of “keeping it fresh”

    OR

    The urgent, anxious, “makeup” sex after a separation or an incident that brought a couple perilously close to a very real breakup?

    Which do you think results in more unplanned pregnancies? Which do you think women will say makes for hotter, more “in to it” sex?

    The former; hands down.

    1. One cannot plan the most intense, memorable sexual experiences; not even by manufacturing crises as you suggest. By sheer numbers, these spontaneous fruits are bound to happen more on a planned Date Night because there are way more planned events. (Even among unmarried fornicators there is usually a plan to attempt to get laid when one goes out on a date, or to a club or bar to pick up a “friend” for the night.)

    2. Married people have more sex, and therefore more chances at intense and memorable sexual experiences. Even Spreadsheet Guy would have sex more than his unmarried twin; who likely could not get even very many dates. Again–just by the numbers–, the Date Night married couple have more and better shots at great sexual experiences. It is true that humans take routine things for granted, even good routines. Objectively, the sex of married people is still better and more frequent than the sex of single people.

    3. You propose a false dichotomy that unfairly besmirches married life while elevating capricious foolishness. There is no rule that Date Night must lack spontaneity, and there is every reason to believe that the good use of previous knowledge along with an investment of anticipation will trump spontaneity and fear…unless one is an emo freak; the sort of person who cannot even imagine white-hot joy, and only black thoughts punctuate the grey monotony monotony of his life.

    3b. More to the point: The question under discussion is whether it is useful to manufacturing crises of separation. By definition: A manufactured crises to imitate the anxiety of dating is just a really macabre Date Night. What you’re suggesting is not leaving behind Date Night, but rather to stretch Date Nights into Date Life and adding angst; which will sour into exhaustion.

    This is divorce porn, but instead of Fireproof’s slathering of endless courtship fantasy; this is eternal end-of-courtship fantasy. Imagine there was another Kendrick brother, but this one listened to too much Cure, NIN, and Smiths in his formative years. That’s the kind of guy who thinks the anxiety of potential loss is the best way to a lifetime of great sexual experiences.

  237. TFH says:

    Once again :

    Various forms of governance, technologies, etc. have shifted the balance of power between men and women in the past. Currently, there has been an unusual sequence of events that have overwhelmingly shifted power towards women in Western countries. This is not in dispute.

  238. JDG says:

    TFH WHAT A JOKE TO THINK THAT FEMALES HAVE THE POWER TODAY- YOU’RE DELUSIONAL!!

    Well that explains everything. We must be living in a patriarchal utopia where women can’t vote, can’t work outside the home, can’t go to school, can’t have sex with who they want, can’t marry who they choose, can’t frivorce their husbands and take his money, can’t collect a government check for raising kids without a father, can’t get free birth control, and can’t murder their unborn children.

    This utopia couldn’t have special programs for women, or affirmative action for women, or PT standards lowered for women, or 90+% custody of children going to women, because women don’t have any power.

    And it’s all because TFH is delusional, and we won’t look at the evidence in your mind.

    Thanks for clearing that up.

  239. Isa says:

    @JDG

    The divorce system in Italy is actually much harder to get through than in America, requiring a separation period of at least 3 years before anything can be finalized. If there is a court battle over children, it will be more close to 4 or 5 years. The custody arrangements are also far more equal, but alimony is a possibility. The main way Italians get around this is… getting divorced in Spain. It’s an EU country, so it counts (how I’m not clear on). That is the route my girlfriend’s husband took, as he never bothered to get a formal separation agreement, and he didn’t want to wait 4 or 5 years to marry her.

    The most egalitarian is of course Sweden. No alimony, 50/50 custody, splitting of only marital assets. So if I was a man, I’d probably go for a Swede, less money hungry.

  240. TFH says:

    JDG,

    And it’s all because TFH is delusional, and we won’t look at the evidence in your mind.

    Note that she (who nonetheless calls herself a ‘king’) has no counterpoints to support her all-caps emotional meltdown.

    I at least wrote something that explains why men have it worse than women at present.

    Where is her comparably-detailed rebuttal?

    Of course, women like her only come here for gina tingles. They get aroused by provoking men and getting corrected authoritatively by them. That is why it is important not to respond to them directly. To do so is to provide such women as 1kingofkings with arousal.

  241. Isa says:

    @ Deti

    I think one thing people can agree on is that people trying to follow the rules get pretty screwed. Decent men are compared to alpha bad boys on motor cycles, and decent girls are compared to slutty miss candy stripper. Because the market is so skewed, it would seem that it takes longer to for decent people to meet simply because the odds now are so much worse. Or rather, there isn’t a demand for decent goods so they are expected to cover themselves in @$%@ and advertise on the nearest curb.

    I find the “29 single and doesn’t want to be” regardless of gender quite depressing, although perhaps more so for the non carousel (i.e. traditional) women rather than non carousel men. We were told, act properly, dress well, be kind, act modestly, and a man will come for you. So we do, and we wait. And wait. And wait. And a decent girl can’t do anything about it. At least the men have the agency to ask and be shot down (by ungrateful carousel riders) rather than watching Those Kind of Girls get chosen and you, the decent one, are stuck on the bench…

    It’s no wonder most singles are on the bench at 35 and utterly uninterested or unhopeful about marriage, western dating is brutal. I thank G-d everyday that I no longer have to deal with that.

  242. Isa says:

    Erm, not that men have it decent. I’ve had my share of calls from both men and women about their @$%@$# prospects, but women have a much shorter time frame to get everything worked out and watching their very small natural dreams of having a family, husband, children, get crushed is shattering.

    It seems the female biological imperative to procreate makes spinsterhood far worse that bachelorhood… At least that generally involves pretty cool cars instead of cats! My friend just bought a Caymen to go along with a z4. Cheaper and more fun than a woman frivorcing him!

  243. Tom C says:

    An Italian man was given a 10-day suspended jail sentence and 40 Euro fine a few years ago for sexual harassment for staring at a woman sitting in front of him on a train in Italy. They did not speak to each other. The first time they met, the man sat next to her but she felt he had moved too close for comfort. The next day, the man sat in front of the same woman and according to her complaint, stared at her the whole journey.

    Still, a ten day sentence isn’t too bad when you consider that in Maine, USA, it’s a felony to stare at children. I think that means a possible 1 year sentence.

  244. Don says:

    As far as women having power or afraid of losing power it is in the man’s hands because he gives women power by wanting sex and begging for it! If men would back off from their wive’s and girlfriends about bothering them for sex and I use the word bothering sparingly the women would have no power what so ever! You get in a relationship with a woman thinking if you are honest and loyal they also will be the same way the next thing you hear is I AM NOT HAPPY AND I DO NOT KNOW WHY! Women today are a totally different species from what our father and grandfather knew!

  245. MarcusD says:

    NHS to fund sperm bank for lesbians: New generation of fatherless families… paid for by YOU
    *For as little as £300 women will be able to search database for donor
    *Will mainly benefit those who want children without relationship with a man
    *There is an increasing demand from lesbian couples and single women
    *Critics called it ‘dangerous’ and warned against creating fatherless families

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2714321/NHS-fund-sperm-bank-lesbians-New-generation-fatherless-families-paid-YOU.html

  246. greyghost says:

    Dalrock
    got this from a commenter at the Chateau. https://maggiemcneill.wordpress.com/2010/07/18/176/ put into words everything discussed here. It explains all of the talk about the collapse

  247. cicero says:

    @theasdgamer
    Whoa there missy. Before you go gallivanting of into you game desert of mirages.

    It is obvious that (like a true feminist) you take what is written, change words to fit your personal views and twist what is written out of context.
    So tell you what. I will do my “homework” on the following condition. You answer me this question.

    Where exactly did I attack the understanding of feminine psychology?

    If however you can’t prove that in my post I ignored, negated or told others to ignore or negate feminine psychology then you will by default admit that you did not read what I wrote and took no time to actually understand what was being said, because you can merely react emotionally to a challenge to your self-righteous intellectual game phase locking.

  248. jf12 says:

    “We shouldn’t be doing this” is the world’s single greatest line, btw. It works on wives too, but you have to contrive the circumstances.

  249. jf12 says:

    @Cane re: “Married people have more sex, and therefore more chances”

    Actually, it is strictly because of having more chances that married people have more sex. In terms of percentages of having sex once you are in bed with someone, long term marrieds have by far the LEAST percentage of sex.

  250. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cane

    The urgent, anxious, “makeup” sex after a separation or an incident that brought a couple perilously close to a very real breakup?

    Let’s rephrase this: The urgent, anxious, “makeup” sex after anything that caused a break in rapport? There’s probably a lot of this in marriages–maybe more than official Date Nights, depending on the emotional fragility of the wife. I assume that most marriages are bittersweet. The emotional swing from sex following a break in rapport can be very exhilarating! (Sometimes I wonder if my wife doesn’t contrive a fight just for the makeup sex. JF12–it might be a strategy for you to consider.)

    Married people have more sex, and therefore more chances at intense and memorable sexual experiences.

    Maybe not if the wives are on a sex strike or slowdown. We all know that married sex frequency tends to decline with the length of the marriage, so rates for 20-year-olds don’t compare with rates for 40-year-olds.

    Harem-running players probably have more sex than most 20-year-old married men.

    I call Distribution Fallacy.

  251. 1kingofkings sounds like a sockpuppet.

  252. jf12 says:

    @greyghost re: link.

    McNeill’s point about all civilization depending on regulating women’s sexuality is correctish in a truthy way, but in response I feel I should emphasize regulating men’s sexuality. The rampant abominations of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as Gibeah, were due to the deregulation of men’s sexuality. The licentiousness of a young woman trying to cheat is a *vestigial* licentiousness, at best a tiny candle compared to a inferno, compared to roving hordes of full grown males amok on the streets raping strangers.

  253. PokeSalad says:

    [Of course, women like her only come here for gina tingles. They get aroused by provoking men and getting corrected authoritatively by them. That is why it is important not to respond to them directly. To do so is to provide such women as 1kingofkings with arousal.]

    It must be exciting to actually be confronted authoritatively (for once) by a man. No doubt it rarely happens in her own life.

  254. Cane Caldo says:

    @JF12

    Actually, it is strictly because of having more chances that married people have more sex. In terms of percentages of having sex once you are in bed with someone, long term marrieds have by far the LEAST percentage of sex.

    You are talking about something else. The chances I referenced and you quoted was chances of a sexual experience being one of the intense and memorable ones..

    @ASDG

    Harem-running players probably have more sex than most 20-year-old married men.

    I call Distribution Fallacy.

    1. This is irrelevant. There are few harem-running players, and many married normal guys who are having sex at least a couple times a month (which is not very often). Likewise, there are many unmarried normal guys who are not having sex anywhere near 24 times a year.

    2. This is not true. By definition harem-running players are not having great sex on a regular basis, and have no shot at it even if and though they chase it unceasingly. That’s because it is men who are the “hopeless romantics”; by which we should mean: Overly sentimental.

  255. HawkandRock says:

    “We look at marriage as an honest intent to build a life with another person which can be terminated by either party at any time. I believe this stance encourages people to be their best possible selves.”

    Not in the current legal climate, it certainly does not. It encourages the lower earning spouse (read: in 95%+ of marriages — the woman) behave as bad as she can get away with because she has been legally granted ALL of the leverage. Period.

    What you have described is an employment at will situation rather than a marriage. The difference is, if you quit your job (for any reason at any time) or your employer lays you off (for any reason at any time) you don’t get to keep collecting a check from your employer indefinitely; and your employer can’t be thrown into jail for refusing to continue to fund your new fabulous (jobless) lifestyle.

    Wouldn’t it be crazy if that could happen to your employer?! Welcome to modern matrimonial/family law. Complete freaking insanity.

    The fact that women continue to pretend not to understand this is tiresome.

  256. jf12 says:

    re: makeup sex. Our denomination is agin makeup in all its Jezebellian formulations, besides which it don’t taste good neither.

    That being said, fighting is a turnoff 100% of the time. That is the *purpose* of a wife fighting, to turn her husband off. All of my hottest sex, and there have been many although not many enough, has started when I suddenly realized my wife wasn’t going to be arguing for the near future: there was no “No” that I had to turn to “Yes” because it was yesses all the way down.

    It is unfortunate, a real crying shame, that Date Night almost never works because almost all wives pick a fight instead.

  257. BradA says:

    How many of you proposing sex “once a day or more” are older? Anon72 would have more input on that, but I doubt most men over 50 are looking for that without chemical aids. It can still be worthwhile when you are older, but it does not have to be nearly as frequent to be enjoyable and you all seem to be ignoring that. We don’t remain 20 or even 30 somethings forever.

  258. Pingback: Frigidity is ugly. | Dalrock

  259. jf12 says:

    re: “chances of a sexual experience being one of the intense and memorable ones.”

    To be clear: you dismiss actual “chances” in marriage by refusing to count the many nights of no sex as diluting his actual chances. And yet you refuse to allow that an eager unmarried man who has not had any woman in his bed for three months is virtually guaranteed 100% chance of having an intense and memorable experience the one time out of a hundred nights that he gets to have sex.

    So, in your funny accounting, in your cooked books, you could be correct: if you refuse to count the nights of no sex for the married man, but you insist on counting the nights of no sex for the unmarried man.

    I’m not sure I’ve ever actually had an unintense and unmemorable sexual experience, btw.

  260. BradA says:

    > I’m thinking the part they hated was the husbands being happier.

    This may be true in some cases, but it is far too cynical to apply to most. How many of you have actually tried to have daily sex in a format like this? My wife and I did at one point when we were trying our own “get pregnant method” and it became more of a chore than an enjoyable time.

    I would much rather have a give and take than a “have to punch the clock” approach to sexual relations in marriage. Some lower drive may be trained in of course, but some is a natural result of aging.

  261. Athor Pel says:

    “Rollo Tomassi says:
    August 4, 2014 at 5:23 pm

    Equality or complementarity, the basis remains the same; good marriages are the ones in which the couple retain the sexual anxiety and urgency of being single.”

    What you say has some truth to it but it’s somewhat misleading.
    The perspective is wrong, at least for a Christian.

    To restate what you said as an explanation of what I’m getting at.

    Good marriages are the ones in which the wife retains the sexual anxiety and urgency of having to daily qualify herself to her husband.

  262. jbro1922 says:

    Isa, you make some good points. Certainly odds play a part. This is even more true for the men and women who prioritize marriage early in their lives. For those who want to pursue other interests (and as you point out, other interests doesn’t always include sleeping around) and then pursue marriage in their late twenties/thirties or forties, then it’s hard to claim “I just couldn’t meet anyone.” Yes it is depressing to see the women who slept with any guy with two legs (speaking from my perspective as a woman) get married before those who refuse to sleep with any man prior to marriage. But one does have to accept some responsibility if one didn’t pursue marriage until much later.

  263. BradA says:

    > Good marriages are the ones in which the wife retains the sexual anxiety and urgency of having to daily qualify herself to her husband.

    That is better than having no concern for the sexual needs of her husband, but I remain unconvinced that it is ideal. We do live in the real, not the ideal, so it may be necessary to have some element of that, but the wife will be better off if she makes the internal mental shift to put her husband on his own pedestal of sorts.

    A commitment to godliness is far better than rote obedience out of fear. The latter can work for a while, but goes against the whole idea of the Gospel. (See living under The Law vs. Grace that Paul writes about so much in the Epistles.)

  264. BradA says:

    jbro1922,

    Some of those women did prioritize other things, such as Christian ministry. They weren’t the sluts, but they still had other things in front of a husband. That is ingrained into modern Christian culture too much and it colors everything.

  265. jf12 says:

    @BradA re: “How many of you have actually tried to have daily sex in a format like this?”

    It depends on your definition of tried. I have tried to try, so to speak, but in the absence of cooperation I don’t think it counts.

  266. deti says:

    @ myrealitie:

    “I definitely do think that I became more attractive in my mid to late 20’s due developments in my character and attitudes. I know that if I had met my husband in my late teens or early twenties instead of at 26 that he wouldn’t have dated me due to my bratty attitude.”

    No, you didn’t become more attractive in your mid to late 20s because of your character and attitudes. You became more marriage minded, and more desirable for marriage, in your mid to late 20s because you, by necessity, became less selfish, less self-centered, more other-centered, and more future time oriented. The vicissitudes and vagaries of a rough and tumble life will do that. Perhaps you didn’t have these experiences, but a lot of women get there after using a man or two and after getting used by a man (or series of men).

    You keep using that word, “attractive”. I do not think it means what you think it means.

    “I am really glad that I got my act together while I was still young and pretty enough to attract someone as great as my husband. Entirely separately, yes, I don’t think I encountered someone as special (to me) as him prior to meeting him. Maybe I was just got lucky with all of the timing.”

    Yes, you did get lucky. You don’t even know how fortunate you are.

  267. How many of you proposing sex “once a day or more” are older? Anon72 would have more input on that, but I doubt most men over 50 are looking for that without chemical aids. It can still be worthwhile when you are older, but it does not have to be nearly as frequent to be enjoyable and you all seem to be ignoring that.

    We’re not ignoring it; it’s just irrelevant. If you don’t want it that often, then don’t. No one’s saying you have to bang your wife daily to be a man. But if you want it daily — and most men would like that if they thought they could get it with a smile, at least in their 20s and 30s — then you should get it. And even if you only want it once a week, you should get it when you do want it, not when she decides you’ve earned it.

    The problem is that the average married man under 50 would like sex every day or two, but the average married couple is having sex every week or two. That isn’t a small gap, and it has nothing to do with old guys bringing down the average. Their wives are withholding to gain control of the marriage, and in most cases the guys have been trained to think that’s okay.

  268. Novaseeker says:

    I also want to respond to this comment: “Essentially a good marriage is one in which both parties behave as, and have the tacit understanding of, a non-married or dating couple.” I agree that people in marriage have to behave as if they could be left at any time and that they have the ability to leave at any time. In fact, this is explicit in my own marriage, (we are not religious). We look at marriage as an honest intent to build a life with another person which can be terminated by either party at any time. I believe this stance encourages people to be their best possible selves. This attitude extends beneficially to many other areas of life as well, in my view (such as with regard to employment). It also creates a really special kind of intimacy where you know you are choosing and feel chosen, every day.

    Unfortunately this approach does pose a problem for religious couples and my be ought right preposterous to them. Please do not attack me for sharing it, people of this board. I’m not here to harm anyone. I am really just very interested in sustainable and happy relationships and the mechanics of human relationships, and I enjoy debating about it.

    The trouble is, as you predicted, this doesn’t work for Christian marriage, because Christian marriage isn’t about always being able to up and leave if you are able to find something better, or the other person “slips down” to a level where it isn’t “doing it for you” any longer, and you want someone else. Therefore this frame of marriage “as long as I’m into you” is very far away from a Christian frame, and therefore not acceptable from the Christian point of view.

    With respect to the “Dread” aspects, this is why this needs to be approached extremely carefully for Christian men who are married. Dalrock has pointed this out in several of his posts and comments on the topic already, so I won’t belabor the point here. But, in essence, it is fine and good to remain attractive to your spuse for the purpose of properly husbanding her needs, with an understanding of what those are, but it is not fine and good to generate actual dread of being left for another woman (at least not intentionally, even as a subsidiary goal) — not for a Christian husband.

    Christians cannot morally approach marriage as a certified BF/GF relationship, terminable at will. Yes, that is what it is *legally*, but a Christian who approaches marriage with that mindset is “doing it wrong”, at the very least. In some churches (e.g., the Catholic Church), this mindset, if present at the time of marriage, is enough to invalidate the marriage itself. This is serious stuff, and not to be trifled with.

  269. Escoffier says:

    In some churches (e.g., the Catholic Church), this mindset, if present at the time of marriage, is enough to invalidate the marriage itself.

    Perhaps I’m wrong (I’ve not looked into it) but that always struck me as backfill justification. The beginning of the divorce boom began roughly in the wake of Vatican II, at which the Church voluntarily surrendered much of its authority and gravity (to no apparent purpose that I can see). The Church was terrified of losing more Catholics by kicking them out for getting divorced against Church teaching, and equally terrified of standing up for Church teaching, much of which the Church leaders had themselves just voluntarily gutted. So instead they found a way to “adapt” Church teaching to the new reality of epidemic civil divorce.

    Once again, “Living Constitution”: the ancient institution adapted to “the times,” modernity’s One True God.

  270. jf12 says:

    @Cail re: irrelevant.

    Yes, you’re right. The scheduling and calendars and making time and daily sex and Date Nights and all the rest, the apparent *need* for such things is strictly because of the wife’s refusal to submit. So a sort of third party is brought in, Mr. Calendar, Mr. Clock, Mr. Time, and she can’t very well revolt against him because he’s not her husband so he will not put up with it.

  271. Novaseeker says:

    Perhaps I’m wrong (I’ve not looked into it) but that always struck me as backfill justification.

    Some of that is true, but it’s an actual problem if it impacts the consent to a Catholic marriage — a marriage which, of course, has no “outs”, and certainly not any based on the “I’m not feeling it anymore”. That is, if you never consented to a marriage with no outs, you never consented to a Catholic marriage. The problem has become very real in the US and other places where most people, including most Catholics, enter marriage with the idea that they can “get out” — based on false understanding, or based on abuses of the annulment process, or based on what they have seen around them (the reality of many annulled and remarried Catholics), so paradoxically the abuses of the process further serve to undermine it in a vicious cycle — but the underlying problem of consent is still present. I think it was Zippy ( could be wrong) who speculated that a good percentage of marriages which occur among Catholics in America are probably invalid.

  272. donalgraeme says:

    @ Novaseeker

    Yes, that was Zippy. And based on my experiences with most Catholics I’ve met, I would have to say he is right. Which is why he suggested a process of Convalidation (sort of an official repeating vows ceremony) to correct that problem.

  273. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    The problem has become very real in the US and other places where most people, including most Catholics, enter marriage with the idea that they can “get out” — based on false understanding, or based on abuses of the annulment process, or based on what they have seen around them (the reality of many annulled and remarried Catholics), so paradoxically the abuses of the process further serve to undermine it in a vicious cycle — but the underlying problem of consent is still present. I think it was Zippy ( could be wrong) who speculated that a good percentage of marriages which occur among Catholics in America are probably invalid.

    I think it was Gabriel who mentioned talking to a woman who was a Vatican lawyer who speculated that over 90% of Catholic marriages were invalid.

    It strikes me that the answer to the problem is to “come as you are called”.

    Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be loosed.

    So if a person “suddenly realizes” after 10 years and 2 children they weren’t being a faithful Catholic when they said “I do”, should they not be told to remain married, now that they know marriage is for life? If this were followed, the only time one could request an annulment due to improper formation would be if they weren’t the divorcing party and their spouse already left. This would be a huge improvement.

  274. deti says:

    Isa, jbro:

    Both of you make some good points.

    As a college student in the late 1980s and following young adults in and out of churches nowadays, something I’ve come to believe is that an average woman, cute (not hot and not even pretty) can get pretty much what she wants sexually, when she wants it. Now, she won’t get George Clooney to marry her. But if she wants to get married, she can. If she wants a boyfriend, she can get that. If she wants a one night stand or a fling, that’s on offer too.

    Sex and attention from men is on tap, on demand, when she wants it, for the average woman. The caliber of men might not be the most attractive, they might be average. She might not be attracted to any of them. But she IS getting attention, and she CAN get sexual attention.

    Average looking (cute, not hot, not pretty) women get attention. They DO get male attention. I’ve been around lots and lots of women of all shapes, sizes and attractiveness levels. I’ve been around women of every age, every station, every socioeconomic status, every personality type. I’ve been around intelligent women, stupid women, ugly women, stunningly hot women, fat women, thin women, talented women, dull women, sluts, virgins, bitches, and “nice” girls. They ARE getting attention. They ARE getting noticed. They ARE getting male interest. Anyone who says otherwise is not paying attention or is being willfully ignorant.

    So, I’ve come to the conclusion that a woman who is “29 and single and doesn’t want to be” got there because she didn’t put a high enough premium on finding a man. Period. Full stop.

    If the men she is meeting don’t trip her trigger, then she needs to get more attractive or put herself into places and situations where she will meet men she does find attractive.

    If she is not meeting marriageable men, then one of the following is going on: (1) she is not marriage material for any number of reasons. (2) She is not doing the work necessary to make herself worthy of marriage. (3) She is not making it clear enough to her friends and family that she wants to marry. (4) She is not putting herself in situations where she might meet marriage minded men.

    Most women get to “29 and single and don’t wanna be” because of one or more of the following:

    1. She has a Disneyfied view of marriage: It is supposed to “just happen”; and she believes she doesn’t have to do anything to make it “just happen”. She just needs to “hang back” and let all the guys come to her; the right one will swoop in on his trusty white steed and take her to his mansion in the sky.

    2. She is a Career Girl who puts all her time into work. She’s not a helpmeet for a man; she’s his competitor for jobs and status and money.

    3. She’s a slut who has damaged or destroyed her marriage value, has a warped worldview and a twisted view of relationships, and has accumulated a department store’s worth of baggage and hangups.

    Women are going to have to start putting some skin in the game. Women are going to have to get out there and meet men and talk to them and approach them. At least, women are going to have to make it clear that a guy won’t get nuked or accused of sexual harassment if he goes up to her and talks to her.

  275. Novaseeker says:

    So if a person “suddenly realizes” after 10 years and 2 children they weren’t being a faithful Catholic when they said “I do”, should they not be told to remain married, now that they know marriage is for life? If this were followed, the only time one could request an annulment due to improper formation would be if they weren’t the divorcing party and their spouse already left. This would be a huge improvement.

    Zippy has proposed something like that with his convalidation idea, which would have the same “curing” impact. From the perspective of Catholic sacramental theology, that’s key, because the marriage is either sacramental or not, whether the couple stays together or not, and that process would help solve that problem, I think.

    Of course there are elements in the leadership in the Catholic Church (being spearheaded by Cardinal Kasper) who are leaning in precisely the opposite direction.

  276. theasdgamer says:

    Spawny, get your popcorn.

    @ Cane

    Ok, you left out my other points. I’ll clarify with numbers.

    Cane:

    Married people have more sex, and therefore more chances at intense and memorable sexual experiences.

    TASDG:
    1. Maybe not if the wives are on a sex strike or slowdown.
    2. We all know that married sex frequency tends to decline with the length of the marriage, so rates for 20-year-olds don’t compare with rates for 40-year-olds.
    3. Harem-running players probably have more sex than most 20-year-old married men.

    I call Distribution Fallacy.

    Cane:

    [responding to item 3]:

    This is irrelevant. There are few harem-running players…

    I don’t think that it’s controversial that 20% of the men are getting at least 50% of the sex (some say 80%), and most of those are unmarried. Maybe deti will follow up.

    Likewise, there are many unmarried normal guys who are not having sex anywhere near 24 times a year.

    Red herring.

    This is not true. By definition harem-running players are not having great sex on a regular basis

    Cite for the definition? Why do you move the goal posts from “more sex” (therefore giving more opportunities for intense sex) to “great sex on a regular basis”? Women in a harem are always competing for the attention of the man, especially by providing great sex. I expect to follow up with more questions once you provide a cite for the definition.

    have no shot at it even if and though they chase it unceasingly. That’s because it is men who are the “hopeless romantics”; by which we should mean: Overly sentimental.

    Aren’t players men??? Can’t players love the women in their harem?

  277. deti says:

    As a followup to my previous comment, I just do not believe for one minute that a woman of average face, form and figure is utterly unable to find ANY man, not one, NOT EVEN ONE, who she can make something happen with and make it work long term. That is simply impossible for me to believe.

    Not when I see moderately obese women shambling around malls with mumbling guys in tow and pushing around baby strollers.

    Not when I see average looking women fending off attention from men left and right.

    Not when I see pretty women turning down dates left and right.

    Not when I hear about the sexual histories of some of these women (and that’s just what they remember and what they’re willing to admit).

    Consider this: Let’s say the average women gets asked out once every three months, from age 17 to age 27. That’s 10 years, 120 months. That’s 40 different men asking her out.

    Forty men showing her interest over a 10 year period. FORTY.

    It is simply not possible to believe that not one of those 40 men is good enough, not attractive enough, not high status enough. It is not possible to believe that she can’t make something happen with even ONE of those men.

  278. Anonymous Reader says:

    RMM
    One thing to note is the whole “he didn’t communicate”, “he should have voiced his concerns”, and all the jazz that is being spouted by the loudest femmes. On paper it may sound like sensible advice, but in practice it’s not what it seems.

    I have a somewhat different take on this than you and Dalrock. It is quite possible that he did communicate his concerns. He just did so as a man, not as a woman would. Since women in the modern world by and large don’t actually listen to what men say, she didn’t hear him.
    And it is entirely possible that he did communicate his issues, she didn’t respond, so he did not bother to repeat himself, because there’s no point in talking when no one is listening.

    Of course, in the modern world where only female-style “communication” is considered valid, where men are obliged to learn “woman speak” but women are under no obligation to actually learn men’s communication style, it is also possible that he attempted to tell her, she could not “hear” him, and he decided that enough was enough.

    Yet another example of how the absurd notions that “men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies” and “women are the superiour communicators” do a great deal of damage.

  279. joshtheaspie says:

    @HawkandRock
    “What you have described is an employment at will situation rather than a marriage. The difference is, if you quit your job (for any reason at any time) or your employer lays you off (for any reason at any time) you don’t get to keep collecting a check from your employer indefinitely; and your employer can’t be thrown into jail for refusing to continue to fund your new fabulous (jobless) lifestyle.

    Wouldn’t it be crazy if that could happen to your employer?!”

    Actually, in at least some US states, that’s similar to how unemployment benefits work. If an employee makes an unemployment claim due to layoffs or a firing that wasn’t for a valid cause (refusing to break the law, for example), the employing company must pay for at least a portion of the unemployment benefits of the employee.

  280. MarcusD says:

    @JDG

    “myrealitie” comes up as a female feminist.

  281. MarcusD says:

    So, myrealitie’s gravatar profile provides the following insight: http://whois.domaintools.com/kateandluca.com

    The marriage is upcoming – on behalf of the commenters here: congratulations :).

  282. hurting says:

    Dalrock says:
    August 5, 2014 at 11:06 am

    With all due to the commenters here who’ve chimed in on the idea that there are a great many invalid Catholic marriages, I remain firmly unconvinced. Escoffier’s summation above has it exactly right; the Church in the US moved the annulment goalposts in the 60′s to accommodate the waves of putative Catholics who went the route of divorce.

    The only way that such high percentages of Catholic marriages today would be null is by applying the flawed logic of the modern tribunals, which includes a very generous dosing of ‘backfill’ justification, something that the tribunals are quite specifically told not to employ (e.g., a ‘failed’ marriage is not supposed to be considered prima facie evidence of nullity, but in practice, that’s exactly what happens).

  283. HawkandRock says:

    @Aspie
    “Actually, in at least some US states, that’s similar to how unemployment benefits work. If an employee makes an unemployment claim due to layoffs or a firing that wasn’t for a valid cause (refusing to break the law, for example), the employing company must pay for at least a portion of the unemployment benefits of the employee.”

    Surely you appreciate the difference here? — i.e., the employer terminated employment for an illegal reason. The underlying rationale is sound. The workers who pay unemployment insurance should not be on the hook for the illegal action of employers.

    This plain exception really is not relevant to my analogy and it’s puzzling why you would even take the time to bring it up other than to trumpet your knowledge of employment law.(?)

    If that’s the reason……congratulations…. I guess.

    The original point stands — people don’t continue to get paid for jobs that they quit (unless the job is wife).

  284. Bluepillprofessor says:

    @Novasekker: “”With respect to the “Dread” aspects, this is why this needs to be approached extremely carefully for Christian men who are married. Dalrock has pointed this out in several of his posts and comments on the topic already, so I won’t belabor the point here. But, in essence, it is fine and good to remain attractive to your spuse for the purpose of properly husbanding her needs, with an understanding of what those are, but it is not fine and good to generate actual dread of being left for another woman (at least not intentionally, even as a subsidiary goal) — not for a Christian husband.

    Christians cannot morally approach marriage as a certified BF/GF relationship, terminable at will. Yes, that is what it is *legally*, but a Christian who approaches marriage with that mindset is “doing it wrong”, at the very least. In some churches (e.g., the Catholic Church), this mindset, if present at the time of marriage, is enough to invalidate the marriage itself. This is serious stuff, and not to be trifled with.”

    What if DREAD is the only, or even the best, way to attract your wife? What if the alternative is a sexless marriage where the husband and wife snip and snipe at other and both are miserable parents who raise screwed up kids or an even more unbiblical divorce? Those are the only options that I see with many, many marriages.

    Can you respond to my earlier claim upthread that modern marriage is not a Biblical marriage so the instructions directed towards an institution that no longer exists are no longer relevant. When the woman can withhold at will and gain total control while the man has no power except to abandon his wife mentally, spiritually and emotionally we have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT institution than the one the Lord was talking about. Our attention and frame is literally the only thing that we have and in many ‘so called marriages’ credible and hard Dread is the only option.

  285. feeriker says:

    deti says: August 5, 2014 at 11:23 am and at 11:33am

    This fits in with what I’ve been saying about how even non-feminist women enjoy spillover benefits from feminism that NONE of them are about to give up without a nasty fight. In the examples you cite here of woe-is-me, approaching-the-wall women who “can’t find a good man,” they have placed themselves in the predicament that they are in largely as a result of the gains made by second-wave feministas over the last half century. Among such gains are socioeconomic “rights” and entitlements (to include preferences in hiring in traditionally all-male professions and a complete obliteration of “repressive” laws and social customs that long protected them from acting on their own worst and most [self-]destructive instincts) that have elevated them to “equal” positions with men. These women gorged themselves on these “sweets” for decades until they suddenly found themselves fat, sick, and unattractive. Since they are incapable of introspection, which would have led to them to realize that they are reaping the natural consequences of the life choices that they and they alone have made, they must project the blame for their self-centered and destructive choices on men. After all, they “reason,” it is men who ALLOWED us to have these choices to make, choices that never should have been permitted to us in the first place (at least when these choices lead to consequences that hurt us), since men MUST know, after all, that we are without the moral agency that would enable us to safely make such choices.

    In other words, “I’m a free, empowered, and independent woman – until I screw up, in which case it’s all a man’s fault for not recognizing me as being incapable of moral agency and thus stopping me.” This is yet another aspect of the “reap all the benefits of the old patriarchy without accepting any of the attendant responsibilities” mindset. Small wonder that even those women who swear on a stack of bibles that they’re not feminists and who would cut their tongues out at the back of their throats before saying a single kind word about the ideology are, almost to the last one of them, dead silent on these issues.

  286. feeriker says:

    “When the woman can, with the full and enthusiastic support of her church and community, withhold at will and gain total control while the man has no power except to abandon his wife mentally, spiritually and emotionally we have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT institution than the one the Lord was talking about.”

    Sorry, BP, but I just had to fix that for you. Too important to leave out.

  287. hurting says:

    Anonymous Reader says:
    August 5, 2014 at 11:41 am

    “Communication” is code for “I don’t want anyone to impinge on my sense of freedom; I don’t want to answer to anybody.”.

  288. deti says:

    @feeriker:

    “even non-feminist women enjoy spillover benefits from feminism that NONE of them are about to give up without a nasty fight.”

    Yes. As you noted, chief among them being their own jobs and money. Thus, they don’t have to marry beta men. They don’t have to have sex with beta men.

    These women are not married by age 29 because THEY DON’T WANT TO BE MARRIED – not even to the desirable men. They don’t want to be locked down. They don’t have to be locked down. Moreover, a desirable man with preselection and status devalues his own status by offering commitment.

    I sometimes conduct this thought experiment. Consider your average 23 year old woman, living in The City, and working at her cubicle Paper Pusher Job in HR for MegaCorp. She picks up a hawt guy and has sex with him. He’s rich, funny, devastatingly handsome, likes puppies, and makes a mean lemon pepper salmon. The sex is stupendously amazing. She loves everything about this guy, including his body odor and his skid stained underwear. She’s got Goldilocks Syndrome, because this guy is JUUUUUST RIGHT.

    After a few nights of passion, he wants to get serious. He wants a relationship. He wants to keep seeing her. After a couple of months, he’s talking marriage.

    This is her dream guy. This is IT. This is PERFECT. This is a Clooney clone, professing undying love. This is more than she could ask or think.

    What does she do?

    She runs for the hills. Why? Because it would require her to commit. It would require obligations from her. It would cut short her ability to choose. What if a better man comes along? She will lose power and control over the relationship.

  289. Novaseeker says:

    What if DREAD is the only, or even the best, way to attract your wife? What if the alternative is a sexless marriage where the husband and wife snip and snipe at other and both are miserable parents who raise screwed up kids or an even more unbiblical divorce? Those are the only options that I see with many, many marriages.

    Can you respond to my earlier claim upthread that modern marriage is not a Biblical marriage so the instructions directed towards an institution that no longer exists are no longer relevant. When the woman can withhold at will and gain total control while the man has no power except to abandon his wife mentally, spiritually and emotionally we have a COMPLETELY DIFFERENT institution than the one the Lord was talking about. Our attention and frame is literally the only thing that we have and in many ‘so called marriages’ credible and hard Dread is the only option.

    Biblical marriage didn’t exist as well at the time of Christ. The Romans and Greeks certainly didn’t practice it. Christianity was largely at odds with the moral system it was emerging into, hence Paul’s need (and Christ’s) to teach specifically about it. Yes, the current system is more challenging than the system of the West a few centuries ago, but it’s still less challenging than it was to lead any kind of Christian life under the Roman Empire’s culture at the time of Christ.

    We need to be clear here: Christian moral rules are not suspended due to their (perceived or actual) lack of practical expedience.

  290. jf12 says:

    re: substance of things hoped for. Because so many women’s responses are so unseen, that to me is evidence that this little series is hitting hard and hitting home to a lot of women. I don’t know, at all, but I can guess that maybe upwards of ten thousand wives have read this and did not know how to begin to respond here, and maybe decided to try to respond at home like they should.

    Spreadsheet Game. Now it’s on.

  291. jf12

    Spreadsheet Game. Now it’s on.

    I put it in a macro. Went back to the book I’m reading.

  292. Isa says:

    @Deti

    I do agree with your comments of the majority of women who are “waiting” (i.e. uninterested and shouldn’t be allowed to reproduce). One doesn’t simply wake up and decide to be married, but should rather discern it. I knew I was supposed to marry at 16 and was trying for well over 10 years with no success, and not for lack of effort or overly high standards. Heck, I even had the equivalent of a dowry. It was that that I was really addressing, and similarly situated friends of both genders. However, I do come from a very conservative location so going husband hunting at 18 is pretty normal. If they aren’t found by 25… you enter into the desert of no possibilities. Men have until about 30, 35.

    I would liken the whole process to cans on a shelf. At the beginning, most are clean and new. Some are premium, some store brand but generally all acceptable to a shopper. With the passage of time, some get bought, but some languish getting dusty and dented. Some dented ones are bought by shoppers who don’t notice until too late, some premium aren’t bought until they paper over their labels to become store brand, while some premium cans refuse to accept demotion. The worst hide behind others so they aren’t chosen, then lament the fact. Either way you slice it, a lot of cans get left over due to the whims of the market! As they say, men make plans and G-d laughs.

    *Side note, I have never been fat and dress nicely. Why women sabotage themselves that way is beyond me…

  293. MarcusD says:

    Do women have to go too far to get the attention of men? (no comment)

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=901168

    Encouragement for single mothers (This’ll be interesting)

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=901202

  294. jf12 says:

    @Isa re: “I would liken the whole process to cans on a shelf.”

    Good analogy! The supermarket analogy, and consumer experiments, have been done repeatedly. It turns out women tend to be *paralyzed* by choice, and if given the choice between ten perfectly good varieties of cans of beans, for example, rathe than just picking the closest one at hand like men tend to do, women will hesitate and even walk away without picking, even though if her choice had been limited then she would have grabbed one.

  295. deti says:

    @ Isa:

    “I knew I was supposed to marry at 16 and was trying for well over 10 years with no success, and not for lack of effort or overly high standards. Heck, I even had the equivalent of a dowry. It was that that I was really addressing”

    I’m sorry, Isa. I do not understand this at all. From my experience living in small towns and small cities in the midwest, a woman can get pretty much whatever she wants, when she wants it. The women who wanted to get married, got married. The women who wanted promiscuous sex got that. The women who wanted flings and fun boyfriends did that. The women who wanted to put off marriage, work on their “careers” and THEN get married, were able to do that.

    And women were able to “change lanes” and switch from one mode to another, more or less at will, whenever they wanted. For example, a promiscuous woman could at around age 25 or so, decide she was done with that, remake herself into Betty Crocker, and snag a husband in very, very short order.

    Even the, uh, ahem, homely women could do this. And they did do it. I’m sorry, I just do not undestand where you are coming from on this. At all.

    If you wanted to get married, and you knew you wanted to marry and that you were supposed to marry, then WHY DIDN’T YOU? With all due respect, I can only conclude one or more of the following was going on:

    1. You did not work hard enough at it. You did not make finding a marriageable man a priority in your life.

    2. Your standards were too high relative to your own attractiveness. Ugly Betty will not get to marry George Clooney. That just ain’t gonna happen.

    3. You were too busy with other things: college education, job, girlfriends, hobbies.

    4. You live in a remote location where women outnumber men by some ridiculous ratio.

    5. You did not follow the basic rules: Be nice. Be pretty. Don’t get fat. Be available. You were a combination of not nice, homely, fat, or unavailable.

    Sorry to be blunt, but there it is. I simply cannot believe for one minute that an average woman, average face, form and figure can’t gin up interest in even ONE suitable man. That is simply impossible to believe.

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  298. Don says:

    I wish men would get some balls! I told my wife after she told me she wasn’t happy that we should sell the house and go our separate ways! Her reply was oh no I dont want that but I need some space right now. Then I asked her if there was someone else and she said no. I told her to be honest and she said she was and then I replied if I found out there was and she was lying I would leave and never look back! At this point it is like we are roommates and I am getting damn tired of it! I look good work out everyday and I am telling you guys do not cry over your woman if she is screwing you over! Get off the couch work out hard and go find yourself a young hard body woman!

  299. Looking Glass says:

    Is Don some sort of advanced Spam Bot?

  300. feeriker says:

    1. You did not work hard enough at it. You did not make finding a marriageable man a priority in your life.

    Whether or not this is/was the problem in Isa’s specific case, this is the problem in 99.9998 percent of similar cases. One thing that I both see in print comments from single women in fora such as this AND hear from those of my personal acquaintance is the attitude that the “right” man is just going to come along out of nowhere and “find” her, that it’s a man’s job to do all the work in starting, building, and maintaining a relationship. She’s just a passive “customer” in the process. This attitude seems all-pervasive, especially among the under 30 age group. It must be a holdover from an earlier age, bolstered by the entitlement attitude prevalent in the younger generation of women. Either way, it logically explains why so many women who claim to want marriage are baffled by their inability to make it happen.

  301. deti says:

    Fee:

    Yeah. Thing is, what you describe used to be enough – hang back, let the guys come to you; you pick the ones you want to date, and then pick the one you’re really serious about and want to marry, then you get married. Marriage minded women cannot do that anymore. They have to get out there and look for marriage minded men. They have to make finding a good man a priority, like school or work or chores, etc. They have to actively look for men and seek them out. I know some girls might find this distasteful or think they shouldn’t have to do it, but this is reality, these are the facts on the ground.

    It’s just like this for men, really – it used to be that all a young man had to do to attract a suitable girl was be kind and have a job. Be nice, have some money. Any man who thinks that that will attract and keep the interest of any girl, even the chaste Christian ones, is either delusional or ignorant of facts on the ground. Now, he has to bring some alpha dominance; decisiveness, tell her “no” every so often; and be ready to end things at the drop of a hat should things not go the way he wants. The main problem men have now is believing that their kindness, deference and bank accounts will attract and keep a woman. They won’t. Not anymore.

  302. I should add: Novaseeker and I (and Deti) aren’t talking about quite the same thing. I’m responding more to the ones who show up and claim to be outstanding wife material in every way, but just couldn’t get a proposal. That’s just bunk. He’s talking about women a bit below average in attractiveness, so I can see how it would be more possible for them to slip through the cracks if they aren’t proactive in finding someone.

    The thing is, the traditional script didn’t require either person to bring up marriage, because everyone knew it was part of the deal. It’s not natural for the girl to bring up marriage right away; it’s too aggressive and could make her seem desperate. But some people think that means men should push for marriage, and that’s even stranger, so that’s not going to happen either. So I can see how a couple of 4′s could miss each other.

  303. theasdgamer says:

    It’s not 1950 anymore. People don’t generally get married right after graduating from high school or while in college. Those places created social circles so that people could meet and decide to marry. Where are equivalent social circles in 2014 when people want to get married? They don’t exist. So women don’t have access to men looking to marry when they are ready to marry (cough-change lanes-cough). Those men are staying home, working, doing man things which aren’t in a woman’s social circle. De facto MGTOW. Or maybe just temporarily MGTOW.

    Men in 1950 had higher status and thus were generally more attractive. Men in 2014 have lower status, so a lot more of them tend to be invisible to women.

    Women in 1950 had to work to get a man’s attention when the man was looking to marry. Women in 2014 have to work hard just to find men who are looking to marry. They just aren’t working very hard at finding those men. Or maybe they aren’t willing to pay a marriage broker to find suitable men.

  304. greyghost says:

    Don is right.

  305. ballista74 says:

    Women in 1950 had to work to get a man’s attention when the man was looking to marry. Women in 2014 have to work hard just to find men who are looking to marry. They just aren’t working very hard at finding those men. Or maybe they aren’t willing to pay a marriage broker to find suitable men.

    Or rather they stopped working to get a man’s attention.

    Where Have All The Good Women Gone?

    Asking and asking God for a husband won’t do a bit of good without seeking out who the single men are and making yourself known, ladies. Now to put on my normal logical hat, I know single Christian women do exist in the churches I’ve set foot in. There’s just too many attendees for it to not be so. But I couldn’t tell you the name of one. But I did go on Christian Mingle and found two who self-identified with those churches. Yet they haven’t been seeking enough that I would know who they are, regardless of whether I’m seeking marriage or not. And somehow, as a man that’s my fault. Yet when a woman runs away from men, and then rejects the men she finds because they’re not the perfect personal Jesus on earth – the combination of Brad Pitt’s body, George Clooney’s charm, Warren Buffett’s money, Billy Graham’s spirituality, and Chris Tomlin’s musical ability, woe is her because single men just aren’t there in her church!

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  307. Women in 1950 had to work to get a man’s attention when the man was looking to marry.

    That’s true. They didn’t have be pushy about marriage, because everyone knew that was the script, and they didn’t have to aggressively approach men, but they had to find ways to get attention. I’ve seen a movie short (on Rifftrax) from the 1950s that was about how a girl should get a boy’s attention without being slutty. Be pretty (but not slutty), find out what he’s interested in and join in, be available (but not too available), etc. They were engaged in the process, just not in the forward way that men are.

    I think nowadays, because the majority of girls are so sexually aggressive in their dress and manner, the good girls may become too reserved to avoid being associated with that. But that won’t work unless she’s so hot that guys ignore her signals and approach anyway. Girls in the 1950s set out to get a good husband, and their methods weren’t any less effective for being subtle. Marriage-minded girls today may have to re-learn those methods, just as they’ve had to learn other skills like cooking that their “working” moms probably didn’t pass down to them.

  308. joshtheaspie says:

    @HawkandRock
    You ignored the part about it being for layoffs. The two separate, and it is not-for-cause, but the person who was providing money for labor still has to provide money, without providing labor.

    The major difference, which I agree exists, is that the employer was the one to choose the relationship in this case, not the employee.

  309. Don Dressel says:

    Spreadsheet spreadsheet spreadsheet! We keep hearing about this spreadsheet! Women do not understand about having a spreadsheet on sex period! I just told my sister-in-law about men having a spreadsheet on sex and she could not believe it. If you have one on your wife or girlfriend they are only going to get mad when you tell them about it and then you can probably forget about having sex altogether! If you are in a relationship and have to fight with your wife or girlfriend about sex all the time then there has to be other issues in your relationship that makes her avoid sex altogether! It is funny how your wife or girlfriend with holds sex and then when they find out you have a woman on the side they are surprised.

  310. theasdgamer says:

    @ Cail, ballista

    The key thing that you’re missing is that social circle opportunities evaporate after college. Social circles for working men and women are tiny compared to high school (say, 400) or college (several thousand). Single ministries are a joke when it comes to social circle.

    Ballista: Yet when a woman runs away from men, and then rejects the men she finds because they’re not the perfect personal Jesus on earth – the combination of Brad Pitt’s body, George Clooney’s charm, Warren Buffett’s money, Billy Graham’s spirituality, and Chris Tomlin’s musical ability

    I think that most single women are looking for a 1950′s beta, who was a nice guy with the high status of a 1950′s man. 1950′s betas don’t exist anymore. They might luck out and land a former player who converted recently, but those types are on the market for a very short duration (likely measured in nanoseconds).

    Women need to create large social circles for the purpose of facilitating marriage. Those circles need to favor chaste and attractive (to men) women. Unicorn herds. I bet that those herds will attract men who are desirable for marriage and that those herds will also increase chastity in women who “come online” as those women join the herds.

    Cail: …the majority of girls are so sexually aggressive in their dress…

    I only see this in the clubs.

    …because the majority of girls are so sexually aggressive in their…manner…

    I only see this in the clubs after women have had too much to drink.

    Outside of the clubs, I see no reason for “good girls” to fear competition or appearing too aggressive. The problem is the lack of big enough social circles.

  311. theasdgamer says:

    See, if you keep track of sex denials, women and white-knight manginas will accuse you of being controlling.

    I said it first.

  312. Micha Elyi says:

    Perhaps I’m wrong…
    <a href="http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/08/03/frigidity-and-power/#comment-135091"Escoffier

    Get used to it.

    Your uninformed speculations are cute but wilt under the truth that full consent of the will has been one of the conditions for sacramental marriage in the Christian Church since ancient times. (That’s long, long before Vatican II, for those who struggle with calendars and dates.)

    Novaseeker’s remarks are, regrettably, close to the the real truth. Most ministers, priests, and parents wondered “How could they not know that marriage is for life?” as Christians who outwardly seemed knowledgeable about the basics of their faith began seeking divorces in ever-growing numbers and as presumably Christian legislators began writing and passing laws permitting unilateral divorce.

    (Remember the scene in the flick Back to the Future in which Doc Brown scoffs at the idea of a future President Ronald Reagan, not because he’s an actor, but because he’s a divorced man.)

  313. Micha Elyi says:

    Perhaps I’m wrong…
    Escoffier

    Get used to it.

    Your uninformed speculations are cute but wilt under the truth that full consent of the will has been one of the conditions for sacramental marriage in the Christian Church since ancient times. (That’s long, long before Vatican II, for those who struggle with calendars and dates.)

    Novaseeker’s remarks that followed are, regrettably, close to the the real truth. Most ministers, priests, and parents wondered “How could they not know that marriage is for life?” as Christians who outwardly seemed knowledgeable enough about the basics of their faith began seeking divorces in ever-growing numbers and as presumably Christian legislators began writing and passing laws permitting unilateral divorce.

    Go ahead, Escoffier, talk to the minister or priest of the Christian congregation you worship with and ask what percentage of couples coming to him to be married have one or both members believing that there exists at least one reason for rending asunder their marriage. Among the Catholic Christians, if that misunderstanding is not corrected before the couple attempts a marriage, that attempt could later be judged a failure by the Church’s tribunal and found to be a nullity instead of a marriage (leading to a Declaration of Nullity).

    (BTW, remember the scene in the flick Back to the Future in which Doc Brown scoffs at the idea of a future President Ronald Reagan, not because he’s an actor, but because he’s a divorced man.)

  314. Don Quixote says:

    Micha Elyi says:
    August 8, 2014 at 5:05 pm

    Novaseeker’s remarks are, regrettably, close to the the real truth. Most ministers, priests, and parents wondered “How could they not know that marriage is for life?” as Christians who outwardly seemed knowledgeable about the basics of their faith began seeking divorces in ever-growing numbers and as presumably Christian legislators began writing and passing laws permitting unilateral divorce.

    And not just in the catholic church either, countless Statements-on-Divorce-and-Remarriage have been published following this trend. Its a classic case of the church following the world. John the Baptist lost his head for calling Herodius “Phillips wife” when she was married to Herod. And Jesus took the same line with the words “whosoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery”
    Once Married Always Married

    http://oncemarried.net

  315. Micha Elyi says:

    So if a person “suddenly realizes” after 10 years and 2 children they weren’t being a faithful Catholic when they said “I do”, should they not be told to remain married, now that they know marriage is for life? If this were followed, the only time one could request an annulment due to improper formation would be if they weren’t the divorcing party and their spouse already left. This would be a huge improvement.
    Dalrock

    Those are interesting observations. You could form that into a question then call in to the Catholic Answers radio program and ask it.

  316. jf12 says:

    @Micha Elyi, sorry to burst your bubble of trying to protect your church, but I am the prick that tends to do that. You are saying that you believe that one VALID way to divorce is for one of the parties to have believed that one valid way to divorce is possible. Quite the conundrum, if you stop to think, which I suspect you will not.

    And you do not come even close to the actual truth, as if you are cowardly: almost always almost all annulled Catholic marriages were between couples who DID know that divorce was not possible. But one of them changed their mind afterwards. And the church rubber stamped it, with the church knowing full well it was doing wrong.

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  318. Don Dressel says:

    I do not have the answers for men in dealing with their wives and girlfriends when it comes to sex and relationships and I doubt any man for that matter will ever have the answer but I can tell you what has been working for me lately. I started communicating better and telling her how much I cared for her and that if she was not happy with me I would let her go but would be there if she needed me to a point. I started doing things with her that she was interested in not just myself and I sat in bed with her holding and kissing and not expecting sex from her. My relationship has gotten much better!

  319. David J. says:

    @jf12: “BTW let’s agree on degrees of frigidity, shall we?
    1. Frozen solid. If it is a woman’s fault that a marriage is clinically sexless, i.e. 10 times per year or less, then she is a corpscicle.”

    This was my (now ex-) wife, except that in addition she was completely non-orgasmic — had never had an orgasm anytime in her life from any mechanism (masturbation, petting, or any form of foreplay or sex) — and was essentially determined to keep it that way. So, perhaps an additional degree of frigidity for your list?

  320. David J. says:

    @Isa: “It seems the female biological imperative to procreate makes spinsterhood far worse that bachelorhood… At least that generally involves pretty cool cars instead of cats! My friend just bought a Caymen to go along with a z4. Cheaper and more fun than a woman frivorcing him!”

    Yep. I have ordered (and should be taking delivery within a couple weeks) a 2015 Corvette Stingray convertible. Child support payments have ended, only the youngest remains at home (and will be away to college next year), and the Vette will dependably provide daily thrills, satisfaction, and motivation to work (to pay for it) well beyond what my ex-wife provided for the last 15 years of our marriage.

  321. David J. says:

    @theasdgamer: “See, if you keep track of sex denials, women and white-knight manginas will accuse you of being controlling.

    I said it first.”

    I kept track of my (now ex-) wife’s denials and — you nailed it — she accused me of being controlling, over and over.

  322. David J. says:

    Dalrock: A (Christian!) counselor of mine summarized this pretty succinctly — “She who has the pussy has the power.” At the time, my (now ex-) wife and I were trying to reconcile after her first divorce filing. If she had been present to hear his statement, she’d have fired him in a heartbeat (or tried to).

  323. jf12 says:

    @DavidJ re: Corvette.

    Man, the C7 is NICE! Did you get the 8 speed?

  324. Don Dressel says:

    Yes I have to agree with you in the fact that having a nice car whether it be a muscle car or a sports car can be a lot less headache than a woman! I am going through hell with my wife right now she is mixed up does not know what she wants and avoids me sat all cost. When I ask her what is wrong her answer to me is I do not know but I still love you. When I ask her is there someone else she says no and if I press her for more info she says cant I just go for a ride by myself? Then I tell her I am going to move out and she says no so what the hell is going on? I would not wish this on my worst enemy!!!!!! The only peace I get now is driving my Challenger SRT 8! Have fun with your vette! If I end up single I will get one to either a new one or a 63-67.

  325. Don Dressel says:

    Isnt it funny how women can screw with your head! A couple of days ago I posted my relationship was getting better now it is a lot worse so I give up on trying to figure out what is going on!

  326. David J. says:

    @jf12: “Man, the C7 is NICE! Did you get the 8 speed?”

    Yes, and the performance exhaust, but not the Z51. 3LT, so all the interior leather and bells and whistles. Had to go with the 8 speed — manual transmission would be fun occasionally, but as a daily driver in the Atlanta area it would be too much work. A large part of my rationale for getting it is divorce/child custody driven. I have a 20-year old special needs daughter who lives with her mother 400 miles away (because the ex remarried and moved away). While my daughter was subject to the court’s jurisdiction, my ex had to meet me halfway for my daughter’s visits. (Even that wasn’t really fair; she voluntarily moved away for her own benefit, not for the benefit of my daughter, so really she should have had to provide transportation all the way.) Now that my daughter is 20 and the custody order no longer applies, my ex refuses to meet halfway, so I have to drive 800 miles (13 hours) round-trip to pick her up and to take her back. I figure if I’m going to have to do that, I’m going to do it in a car that makes the trip a joy rather than a chore. Basically, “don’t throw me in that briar patch!”

  327. David J. says:

    @Don Dressel: “The only peace I get now is driving my Challenger SRT 8!” I understand completely. But I hope your wife straightens out.

  328. Minesweeper says:

    @Don Dressel says:
    August 12, 2014 at 5:48 pm
    When I ask her what is wrong her answer to me is I do not know but I still love you. When I ask her is there someone else she says no and if I press her for more info she says cant I just go for a ride by myself? Then I tell her I am going to move out and she says no so what the hell is going on? I would not wish this on my worst enemy!!!!!!

    Just my 2c to a guy who is confused to what is going on. None of this is guaranteed of course.

    She is uncertain to whether she wants to still be with you, but isn’t ready to divorce. Anytime a woman wants you out of the house so she can “think” :) or rather sort our her feelings, its a very bad sign. It means she is not happy and is searching for how to make her happy. You will appear to her as the problem as doesn’t understand anything about herself.

    You need to either go dread, or get advice from a laywer but don’t tell her.

    Everyman goes through something like this right before is all starts. She is basically deciding if she will be happier without you. Hence she wants you to leave her alone for abit. Your so confused as up until now, you can hardly fart into the wind without her permission. Her position has flipped 180. Anytime a woman isn’t concerned what you are up to or is fine with relinquishing control over your life. Its done in my abit limited experience. Anytime a woman wants something in her life, her desire to control it is palpable.

    From my experience and from other guys that I know, I would say maybe she has met someone else and her feelings are confused\conflicted to what to do. She will never tell you this till after it’s all gone down.

    If it does go down you have my full sympathies. -> cash stash, temp place to stay, lawyer at the very least.

  329. Minesweeper says:

    @Don Dressel – before i forget consider her at the moment to not be able to tell the truth. As far as she is concerned “truth” is what her feelings say anyway. Watch her behaviour and consider anything she says as interference to you seeing what is really going on.

    When they get to this stage they will lie like hell. In my humble experience.

  330. jf12 says:

    @David J re: “meet me halfway”

    That was a pretty good deal. Looking fair on paper is a lot better than not looking fair at all.

    This was 30 years ago, but my ex had up and moved, contrary to agreement and law, with the kids from Dallas to Atlanta, totalling ignoring visitation schedules but insisting on support increases, all of which the court gave in her favor. More than dozen times I made the 1600 mile round trip unplanned on a random weekend she would say I could watch the kids, usually while she went somewhere, just to see them for a while on a Saturday or Sunday. Oddly, odd to me, she often let me sleep at her place (without her being there) with the kids. I think the only time the kids ever went to church is if I slept over Saturday night, also contrary to agreement. Later in the 1980s I tended to take the red eye. Anyway I became intimately familiar with I-20 and Hartsfield both.

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  332. David J. says:

    @jf12: Unbelievable. There are a number of elements of my divorce arrangements that are unfair and unbalanced, favoring the ex-wife for no good reason. And the legal part of it seems never-ending — the divorce was final in 2011, but we’re still in court on her motion for contempt, my motion for visitation expenses, and (shortly) cross-motions for reconsideration of previous rulings. And yet most men’s stories are worse, often significantly worse, than mine. What an outrageous system. I am offended for you at what you had to go through. I hope your children were able at some point to understand and appreciate what you did for them.

  333. jf12 says:

    @DavidJ, thanks for the kind words, and I’ll pray for your situation too.

  334. Chip Pacer says:

    Again, another amazing post and set of comments. Thank you.

    My ex was a master at withholding and she too was a spreadsheet wife. The more and more she held-out, the more undesirable and unlovable she became. (To provide some context, in the last 5 years of our marriage – we had sex a total of 25 times, and this # includes her manually pleasing me after refusing ‘regular sex’.) I regularly tracked days since, days refused, reasons for refusal, etc. As time went on – I turned it into a game (for myself) to see how long that I could hold out (e.g., twice as long as the last time ?; 1/3 of a year ?; 1/2 of a year ?).

    It’s a pretty amazing spreadsheet with trends, graphs, macros, etc (e.g., I can enter the date, time and reason for a refusal into the calendar app on my smartphone (on my nightstand immediately after the refusal) and thanks to the good people at Google, my Google calendar gets updated, my desktop calendar gets updated, as does the spreadsheet the next time that it is opened (yeah … kind of geeky I know, but hey, I had all kinds of time right ? After all, I wasn’t wasting time having sex so I might as well ‘improve myself’ (smile))).

    Anyways, I guess the milestones that I set was an attempt on my part to transfer power (A frigid wife is powerless, undesirable, and (romantically) unlovable (?)).

    Two things or comments by my ex made her clearly, clearly, clearly undesirable and unlovable:

    One weekend morning we were home alone – she was buried in her computer (as was the norm) and I asked her if she wanted to take a shower with me. As expected – she replied ‘No’, but the look on her face was something that I had never, ever seen or experienced before. Her face gained a look of sheer disgust. Like the face we all get instinctively when placing our nose in a container of spoiled milk. Uncontrolled, Unintentional. Almost reflexive.

    I will never forget that look.

    A couple of months after that event, I asked her one morning if she wanted to … her reply ? “No I don’t. But I know you do. So ok. But be quick.”

    We had sex that morning, and I’ll be honest – not because I really wanted to, it was probably because there was a spreadsheet milestone that I was trying to ‘hit’ (smile). It was a power (for me) thing. The power had been transferred.

    While her frigidity had made her undesirable and unlovable, on that day, at that point – she had become powerless too. She just did not realize it.

    And at that moment, on that day, was when I knew that was the last time we would ever have sex.

  335. Don Dressel says:

    Thank you for all your replies! I have found out that my wife was pulling quite a lot of money from her personal savings and from her credit card. She was mad when I confronted her and she said I was snoopy. I told her I hoped she was not in a scam and her reply was it is legit and there was an attorney involved with documents signed and her being a ” Beneficiary”! I think she is being scammed but time will tell!! She will not tell me any details!

  336. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, I would get an attorney involved and make sure you are protected financially. You’d be surprised just how liable a man can be for his wifes mistakes during the marriage. Very strange indeed. Sounds kinda like BPD behaviour from what I remember, sure she dosn’t have this ?

  337. Blueplillprofessor says:

    @Brad: How many of you proposing sex “once a day or more” are older? Anon72 would have more input on that, but I doubt most men over 50 are looking for that without chemical aids.

    Very true. Every other day (but twice some of the time) for this nearing 50 something is now sufficient.

    @DonDrexel:

    “I can tell you what has been working for me lately. I started communicating better and telling her how much I cared for her and that if she was not happy with me I would let her go but would be there if she needed me to a point. I started doing things with her that she was interested in not just myself and I sat in bed with her holding and kissing and not expecting sex from her. My relationship has gotten much better!”

    At this point I was yelling at the computer. No fracking way is that going to work. Communicating better? Elevating her above you and telling her how much you care ad nauseum? Adopting her frame and doing what she wants rather than what YOU want? Following her around like a puppy promising you will let her go if SHE wants? The thing is going to hell and the dude doesn’t know it.

    Then the next post:

    “I am going through hell with my wife right now she is mixed up does not know what she wants and avoids me sat all cost. When I ask her what is wrong her answer to me is I do not know but I still love you. When I ask her is there someone else she says no and if I press her for more info she says cant I just go for a ride by myself? Then I tell her I am going to move out and she says no so what the hell is going on?”

    Is there a macro for guys like this? My God is it predictable. There are several blogs. /r/theredpill recently opened a LTR Flair which might be able to deal with emergency issues like this. Yes, it IS an emergency. Your Uber Beta behaviors have turned your wife completely off sexually. She probably has no idea what has happened, only that you are…yucky now. She may be cheating based on your description and she is definitely checked out emotionally. The ONLY thing you can do is DREAD. It may even take the hard dread that Dalrock and several others claim is anti-biblical to save this situation but first you need to improve yourself (i.e. soft dread). Get in shape, lift weights, learn PUA and game, and most important start leading your wife rather than following her around like a puppy. Stop caring what she thinks. Stop being affected by her emotional storms. If it is going to be a divorce or a renewed relationship, you must stop caring what she thinks and start forging your own path. She will follow or she will not. Also, read Athol Kay’s books MMSL and MAP.

  338. Don Dressel says:

    Thank you boy I do sound like a fucking idiot! Yes I am working out everyday and starting to live my life for myself instead of following her around like a little puppy. On the flip side I am still going out with her and still holding hands and kissing and we still are intimate. She said she is being honest and even has our good friend calling me and she has even reassured me there is no one else. I just found out she has gotten herself in to this financial thing which includes attorneys and paperwork and I checked out her accounts and sure enough money is being taken out of her accounts. I think she has gotten caught up in a scam but she has told me no. I guess I will find out soon because she said it is almost over with. So if she admits she is seeing someone else I will hit the courthouse that very day. If she is scammed it will serve her right for putting me through this hell! I am starting to realize that this is very unhealthy and thinking it is over for me! I am starting to pull away even though she is still trying to be affectionate. Thank you for your response men like me even though we are honest and loyal are still made out to be fools. I will let everyone know what the final outcome is!

  339. Don Dressel says:

    Maybe one of you guys or a woman for that matter can explain to me why is it that if my wife is seeing someone else would say to me I have got myself in to a financial thing that is stressing me out and I cant wait until it is over! She then asks me if I want to go out to eat and see a movie holds my hand we sometimes have sex afterwards and the next day asks me to take a ride to the coast with her. I checked out her cell numbers and besides her friends the other calls are to financial institutions which back up her story about the financial thing she has gotten herself in to. When my first wife was seeing someone else she would not touch me or kiss me or want to go anywhere with me.

  340. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, I really think you need to grab a local male friend and have him talk to you. I don’t think anyone telling you anything without being in your situation is going to help you see.

    The fact that their is a cover up going on, is a huge red flag, no matter what it is. If she can’t tell you – she shouldn’t be involved with it. Is this a marriage or waht ? She obviously knows that you will be horrified when you find out, which is why your not told.

    Can you imagine making a big business decision secretly ? And if she found out refuse to tell her? If the shoe was on the other foot under what circumstances would you do this to her ? Women will often act very normal indeed, in fact sometimes even better than normal when planning an exit so I have discovered. Almost all men never see it coming.

    I think you sense something is going to pop soon, you know something is happening on a daily basis that you have no idea of. This is how it feels like on the way to the exit for the man.

    When a man is engineering a split, its almost always out in the open, when a woman is engineering one is almost always hidden. My ex smiled and behaved as normal until she moved herself and my kid out during a meeting she was meant to be at – while I was sitting there twiddling my thumbs.

    They do this as they are afraid of our reaction. But hey as you think, it may be absolutely fine – I hope.

  341. Foo says:

    Two things:
    1) I’ve read a couple of comments about lusty single girls turning into frigid wives. My experience is similar. I married a young woman who was physically engaging during courtship. Our shared faith proscribes pre-marital sex, and so we limited ourselves and really tried to follow what we both held as a moral standard. It was difficult for me, and I thought it was difficult for her as well. After the vows though I found that sexually, she was very cold, rejecting more advances than she accepted. She would even shut me down when I was trying to warm her to the idea: “Are you doing _____ so that we will have sex later… because I just don’t feel like it.” She didn’t experience an orgasm until our second year of marriage when after much persuasion and persistence she relented and allowed a brief flirtation with cunnilingus. Afterwards she still had no interest in sex. Even oral stimulation became “icky” and disappeared from our relationship (oral stimulation for me was never even an option). She would occasionally give in, and “lie back and think of England”. I developed a theory that all women were like her. That they connived to use a man’s sex drive to trap him into marriage where they would suck the marrow from his very soul.

    Later I learned that even though she was technically a virgin when we wed, she had been around 3rd base with several guys. So although calling her a slut by the standards of the modern world would be unkind, she was something of a “slut” (girls who cock-tease in the nude) by the standards of our little community.

    2) I read a couple of comments about a wife’s perception of sexual frequency versus the reality of sexual frequency. After about 10 years of miserable marriage I started to mark the frequency of our love making (that term just sticks in my craw) on a calendar. We got into another fight about our marriage and she complained that I had a convenient memory when it came to sex. She said we had plenty of sex. That we were making love at least once a week. I got out my calendar and showed it to her. She looked at it for a minute and the fight stopped. We had sex more frequently for about 2 months, and then went back to the usual 3 or 4 week interval.

    Now I’m 40… my sex drive is dropping and I don’t feel as rejected by my wife’s continued rebuffing. We have sex a couple of times in a month. She reaches climax every time. I’m not constantly thinking about divorce. But I’m also not very attracted to her. During her years of prime physical attractiveness she turned me away. I don’t think I really bonded to her. That is the real risk of being a young frigid bride. Your husband (beta provider schlub) won’t bond to you. He may never divorce you, but he’ll likely not walk through fire for you either. You want that kind of devotion? It is forged in a fire baby, so quit putting that fire out.

  342. Don Dressel says:

    Thank you Minesweeper for all your advice and comments. It is like a soap opera the days of our lives! She has got my head spinning and considering I am an open and honest person does not help the situation! I actually have been confiding in my wife’s brother-in-law who she cannot stand. He is a retired police captain and has his own business in doing backgrounds for police and fire departments. This morning after a rough night of not sleeping because of this unhealthy situation my wife asked me what is wrong and when I told her it was this whole thing going on she went off on me and said you broke your promise and I told her I would never do something like this to her! She in turn replied that it was someone else’s personal business and could not tell me until it was over in about one more week! She said I had my head in a fog that she was sleeping with someone else! We were suppose to go out to the coast today so I asked her to skip working on this whatever it is for one day and her reply was she was only going to be about 1 hour. I repeated I would never pull something like this on her. I told her we should take a break from each other until this is done and she got mad at me for not wanting to take her old ” BUG” out for a ride today! She is a tough case to deal with and in the words of my brother-in-law his wife her sister would never do something like this. It might have something to do with m1 accounts if you know anything about that let me know and again thank you for your replies! I am burned out!!!!!!!

  343. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, does she have Borderline personality disorder ? Tons of info online. They will often do things for people outside the house they won’t do for those inside.
    Do you ever feel like you would far rather have the person she presents to the outside world than the one you get ? Emotional instability, irrational anger ?

    M1 money supply accounts?

  344. Don Dressel says:

    Minesweeper THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR REPLIES YOU DO NOT KNOW HOW MUCH IT MEANS TO ME!!!!! I think she has some personality issues! She is fighting me tooth and nail and keeps on telling me to trust her! I personally think she is just trying to buy time and doing some research I think I know where she is rushing off to. I know I should just pull away but after 23 years it is real hard to! I think the shit is about to hit the fan and she has no idea how I found out where she is going! Her sister is livid with her in the way she is treating me! We went out today and she treated me like a friend so thats when I finally realized she has emotionally disconnected from me! She is a master at games and yet says she does not play them! I have been also confiding in my brother-in-law who has has said she is not welcome there! My problem now is we have 4 dogs and I cannot afford to keep my house myself so what is next is unpredictable! Thank you again and I will keep in touch and please keep in touch!

  345. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, your head must be spinning, I know mine was when this was going down, with a BDP ex wife, so yeah, its like being with crazy incarnate.

    Just plan ahead if you can so you will survive the next few months somehow(preferably 6), get your finances “locked down”, change passwords on all your internet sites in case she knows any and can track what your doing, etc, get lawyerd up now – so you are prepared for the worst.

    IF she is syphoning off money then you need to get a lawyer involved right now and intervene, if you will come out the loser in this financially. I would hazard a guess that people around her know whats happening, we are always the last to know, her sis+b-law prob know but can’t tell you (even if they hate what she is doing blood is thicker than water). Be aware of who you can trust. I fell into that one big time, its a strange thing when your best friends who you would have done anything for become your worst enemy’s overnight. Expect the WORST behaviour if you have a PD-wife going to detonate.

    Get your support network in place if you can, sounds like you have a few people you can count on. It dosn’t look good mate, anything I can do to help let me know.

    Do you think she is moving money around to hit you more financially when it all comes down ?

  346. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, just so you know she had probably had legal advice already – it sounds like, and knows that in a separation it would be illegal to so what she is doing, but its fine before.

    Again, I’m only coming from my own experience in this. Looks eerily similar. And in the situation you are in, it’s almost impossible to think, your in a state of internal panic.

  347. Don Dressel says:

    Thank you again yes I am realizing she is moving money but believe me it is all her money. I have got my money tied up in a rental and stocks that she has no access to. As far as my brother-in-law he and her are a bad item and cannot stand her and has never liked the way she is. I think she is having an affair now that I look back on it. I had back issues and had to deal with my 83 year old father who is slowly dying of heart disease so you can see this is a very difficult time for me! I am very good friends with her sister and I realize blood is thicker then water. Her sister is very angry at what she is doing to me.I think she met someone else when I ignored her but now I am working out everyday and have lost 35 pounds and put on a lot of muscle as I use to work out a few years ago.The comments I hear from her are I still love you but not in love with you and its just a little to late. I have figured out where she is going but why waste my time it is time to end all this soap opera and as her sister has told me she will come running back when all the excitement wears off it is her track record! Thank you again and believe me I really need this response from you as it has helped me tremendously and emotionally Take care

  348. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, well as long as she can’t pinch your stuff in a “potential” divorce, and she isn’t just clearing her decks in preparation for that. If your stocks and finance are secure beyond her reach, and she is moving on, well it looks like you are probably prepared already, far more than most men who go through this. You just don’t want her making a claim against you because you have stocks\income etc. And she “miraculously” has none.

    If you won’t be shocked, then you will probably be relieved, sounds like you know her next move. Expect her to be outraged that you won’t fall hook line and sinker into her plan. And if she has an affair, if it fails – you will be on the receiving end of her anger because it failed ! I know its just so nuts, but that’s just what happens :) you can then be glad that you have extracted yourself from her manipulation.

    If your think your soon to be ex does have a PD – check them out, if you find a correlation it will bring great comfort to read and understand her behaviour when its written down by someone else. And if she does have a PD – your next relationship with a non PD will feel amazing. That’s my experience and I’ve heard the same from others. You remember what a relationship can be like.

    Good luck my friend ! Stick close to God if you have him.

  349. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, I suspect this is her possibility investing in this guys business, as a down payment for their new life together. I’ve heard of this kind of thing before, if that is what it is.

    my commiserations to you dude, will be thinking about how you are getting on, it’s not a pleasant time esp with everything else you have going on.

  350. Don says:

    You have just opened a new window in saying that about his business because she had mentioned trying to save his business. Last night I did some heavy thinking and thought do I really want to be with a woman like this? I went upstairs this morning because I sleep on the couch right now. I told her I had a meeting tonight at 7 and would be gone for about 2 hours. Surprisingly she asked what it was about and I gave her the same reply I always get it does not affect you and quit being nosey. I was surprised that she would even ask. I do not like tit for tat but I just thought now she knows what it is like. She also responded that this would conclude within 3-5 days. She told me her friend told her to go to al-non and I told her I had no problem with medication and my Diabetes because my numbers wee excellent because I work out each day but my issue was with all this going on with her. She immediately went off on me and told me to get out of the room. Besides telling me I was mad and I told her I was not mad and why would she say this? We use to get along great and never I mean never had these problems until now. I am backing out and preparing to be solo again. Thank you again for your response Minesweeper!

  351. Don says:

    Yes she has me coming and going and yes it has turned her off with my up and down behaviors lately but I would never be deceitful and hiding things from her! I have always been open and honest with her!

  352. Don says:

    Yes thank you so much about the comment on investing in this guys business. I think you hit the nail on the head as they say. As far as her being involved with him who knows? But this whole situation has quite possibly ruined our marriage! Take care and again thank you so much!

  353. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, no worries, would you say she see’s you as all bad at the moment ? before hand has she seen you as all good ?

  354. By the way, on the topic of dealing with a BPD (which probably applies to the other): keep a journal. Not necessarily a book of your feelings with a unicorn on the front, but just a basic record of what you and she do and say to each other on a daily basis. A BPD is very good at imposing her faulty reality on others. Something will happen and a few months later she’ll have you questioning your own memory and sanity when she insists it didn’t happen or that it didn’t mean what it obviously meant. It helps a lot to be able to skim back through your written history once in a while and reestablish your hold on objective reality.

  355. Don says:

    I do not think there is another man butttt because she has been acting strange trying to borrow a lot of money it has made me paranoid and now I am accusing her of cheating and our marriage is headed downwards because she will not be honest with me and tell me why she is trying to borrow money and tells me I am to nosy! You just do not treat your spouse this way! I guess we are separating now! Thanks for staying in touch!

  356. Minesweeper says:

    @Cail Corishev says:
    August 18, 2014 at 1:14 pm
    By the way, on the topic of dealing with a BPD (which probably applies to the other): keep a journal. Not necessarily a book of your feelings with a unicorn on the front, but just a basic record of what you and she do and say to each other on a daily basis. A BPD is very good at imposing her faulty reality on others. Something will happen and a few months later she’ll have you questioning your own memory and sanity when she insists it didn’t happen or that it didn’t mean what it obviously meant. It helps a lot to be able to skim back through your written history once in a while and reestablish your hold on objective reality.

    You’ve met one before then :D forget about the few months trying to sort out the lies and disinformation, consider extreme levels on denial after 30 mins to be a common occurrence. In fact while still in same the discussion :) You’d know when you called her on it as you were rewarded with a F**K OUT and a storm out.

    Ahh the bliss of being married.
    @Don, well. if you can last out the week maybe then you will get some answers and what’s been going on will come into view.

  357. Don says:

    Things are coming in to view now. I had a discussion with her with no fighting or arguing. I told her why I am acting the way I am. Generating the things she has been telling me and her actions have made my personality very volatile and adding my slow with drawl from my pain medication for my back have added more to it. The whole picture here is she has taken on a job pulling some of her capital to invest in it and hoping for a good return. She is getting texts every 3 hours at the top of the hour. I have traced her phone calls to a number of different financial institutions. She has told me she has gotten in over her head and and is hoping it will end soon. I cannot have any information about it because she has been told to keep it confidential. I have been invested in the market and real estate so I am familiar with financial dealings. I have told her she is being scammed and her reply was no there is an attorney involved. There is also a lot paperwork involved and I told her this means nothing it could still be a scam. I have covered myself financially and have been in contact with the police and they have told me to contact the F.B.I. I am giving her till the 28th and then I am moving forward. I think after all of this behavior by her I am going to think seriously about a legal separation. A wife or a husband for this matter does not treat each other in this matter. Thank you for your concern and advice and I really appreciate your replies and if you have any ideas on to what is going on let me know.

  358. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, name the different financial institutions you have found. Ive never heard of a deal before that you can’t tell your spouse without it being illegal. Maybe its some sort of insider trading.

  359. Don says:

    We went out today and she started to open up to me but when I pushed for more information she got stressed and mad. She is still very affectionate to me and has told me she has not cheated. My concern now is I started to notice she does not have to leave much to do her “JOB” as she calls it and I think now that she has given most of her money things have slowed down. I told her to please come to me if she finds out she has been scammed. I know most men would call me a fool including her brother-in-law who said I was a saint. I am going to stick by her until it hits the end. She is leaving for arizona with my friends wife for 15 days. She is telling me that if it is not a done deal she does not know what she is going to do. She told me there is an attorney involved and she put up money for an investment for a big return. I asked her if they are still asking for money and she told me no. I asked her why she will not tell me and she told me it was someone’s personal info! I told her I think she is getting scammed but she denies it. I asked her if it was a house or office and she replied office. I checked her mileage and then checked on a house that was listed as investorreach and the mileage was perfect. I do not know if this is where it is at but I will find out. She has been in touch with lifespring that is the only investment firm I know of. I pray she has not gotten scammed and I notice she is starting to open up more to me so except checking on that house I am backing off. She was getting automatic texts on her cell at 12 3 6 9 and 12 now I notice they have slowed way down. I hope I am not writing you it was a scam but we will see. If you know of anything about these 2 companies please let me know. I met with my ex-cop brother-in-law and he thinks it is a scam. I also noticed she is getting a lot more stressed out and tells me she wished she had never had gotten in to this. Thank you so much you have helped tremendously by talking with me over this! Quite the drama!

  360. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, well I guess you can tell us all in a few weeks then. Its all very strange. Just make sure you are protected somehow, if she loses it all then files, you will get stung. You effectively are her safety net if it goes south. If you guys have signed a marriage agreement then you are both liable for the other unfortunately.

  361. Don says:

    I really think she is being scammed and she is fighting me all the way. I just got off the phone with the F.B.I. and they told me because I do not have any information there is nothing they can do. I am very frustrated and angry and I think this will ruin our marriage with myself pushing to sell the house and go live my life with someone that will be open and honest with me. I told her they are very slick people and the reason they do not want her to tell me anything is because I will nail them! Thank you again I will let you know!

  362. Don says:

    I have decided to hire a private investigator!

  363. Minesweeper says:

    Good luck with that, if she is engaging in behaviour that is dramatically different than normal, hiding info etc. Then it means she has changed quite abit for some reason, menopause or someone else. People don’t change that much on their own like this.

    Unless she has done this before, something else is behind what is going on, its not just I got a great deal I can’t tell you about. Something has caused her to change to become like this. Or maybe she does this normally, and she is feeling very stressed as she is over her head.

    Who knows !

  364. don says:

    It is eating me up inside no matter how much I try to not let it bother me. I wish she would let me know what is going on but she will not! God probably is doing this to get me away from her as he has future plans for me. She has never been much of a religious person

  365. Don says:

    Your comment is exactly how I feel! I told her today that No woman or man for that matter should treat there spouse this way! Her reply was that is just the way she is! I said you must have a lot of anger towards me! She responded yes I am very angry towards you! I am sure things will start to become clearer in the near future. I talked to an attorney today and told him all the specifics and his response was that I was not liable for any debt she is incurring! Thank you again for your reply it helps me tremendously in with dealing with this!

  366. Minesweeper says:

    “I talked to an attorney today and told him all the specifics and his response was that I was not liable for any debt she is incurring” – oh that’s a relief. Oh well, I guess you will need just to try and calm down and see what happens, don’t make any rash decisions, maybe get some time away to clear your head.

  367. Don says:

    Thank you again for your advice. It is funny but we had the hottest sex in years last night and I guess the whole reason I have been so emotional about this whole situation is the running off and taking money out of her accounts and doing large cash advances on her credit cards. By her not being up front with me in regards to this whole situation it has made me very angry! For every action there is a reaction and I guess mine have not been very good! On the positive side of all this I have been working out quite a bit starting to get a six-pack as they say and have quite a bit more energy! I am going back to school to work on my financial skills and also taking some history classes on top of it! Thank you again and you have been a tremendous help! Take Care

  368. Minesweeper says:

    @Don, always nice to hear of a happy ending.

  369. Don says:

    Well it is not quite over as the money issue is still at hand and that should be coming to light soon. I will let you know what that is as soon as I find out all about it! Thanks again!

  370. Don says:

    The new thing here is she is making large with drawls from wal-mart and raley’s in amounts of 1320.00 and 1270.00 on different days. Also has gone to UPS twice and had a deposit of 11,818.00 dollars in her account. The total of the with drawls have added up to and including UPS the exact amount deposited in her account. This tells me she is in to money laundering or a scam. We have been fighting about this today like cats and dogs! I told her husband and wives DO NOT keep secrets from each other! I had just got back from the doctors and told her my blood pressure has gone through the roof. Her reply ” I DO NOT CARE”!!!!!! Whats your opinion? P.S. AT THIS POINT I HOPE SHE GETS TAKEN TO THE CLEANERS!

  371. Minesweeper says:

    ?

  372. Don says:

    Boy what a soap opera my life has become! She is going away and not soon enough! Yes you have the correct answer! Thanks again!

  373. Don says:

    Hi just wrote to give you an update on what is going on. It appears it is a financial thing that supposedly is going to end soon. She took a house sitting job 5 days ago to give her “SPACE” as she says. Her comment to me was no there is not another man and yes she just needed to get some peace and quiet from this financial thing she got mixed up in and from me and the 4 dogs. We talked for an hour last night and it was fine no pleading from me or asking questions. She then told me she was not looking forward to coming home tuesday as it depressed her and was afraid I would get mad at her and start asking questions again. My response was no I am done with what she has gotten herself in to and she is leaving for Arizona with the wife of a friend of ours and staying at their home there. To make things even more interesting my ex-wife called me and wanted to go out for coffee. So why not! Take care

  374. Minesweeper says:

    hi, well, glad to hear it hasn’t got any worse, hope it works out for the best, I really do.
    you seem able to deal with whatever is going on, which is the main thing as the guys seem to both get hammered financially during a split and take it much harder emotionally too (as opposed to popular belief)
    take care

  375. Don says:

    Someone hacked in to my wife’s facebook site and hacked in to my e-mail and photo shopped a picture of a guy sitting next to her. I caught it when I looked at the pics and them sitting next to each other. aI called her and asked who the hell is in to my e-mail and photo shopping these pictures to me? This is getting to weird and at the same time She was crying because she is out almost 50 thousand dollars with this thing she got in to! She said the attorney told her they were being fined 240 thousand dollars because they did not get the paperwork and/or money in by the deadline. I told her DO NOT send anymore money and I also told her I wanted to meet with this attorney for answers! She told me when she gets back from Arizona she will tell me more. She thinks it is still legit but I know better! She is out over 50 thousand dollars at this point. I lost over 30 thousand on the market on 2 holdings because they were cooking the books. Enron and World Com and I am sure you heard of them. I asked her why she has never asked me for help and I have always been there for her! She told me she is just independent but she has no financial know how at all! I asked her where this is coming from here in the U.S.? She said no and I responded it was definitely a scam. She said there is other people with money invested in this also. I hope I can keep my emotions in check and leave my 9mm at home when I see this attorney! Just kidding. My military training might come in handy! No just kidding again as I do think with a straight head but it is amazing what women can do to a man! What is the old saying ” Where Angels dare to go?” Thanks again for staying in touch!

  376. Don says:

    Minesweeper I now have all the answers and you at one point hit it on the nail! She was on her cell with some guy and he kept asking her for money and she would become a beneficiary for his money! When the money was released she was going to run away with him and leave me high and dry with the dogs! It turns out she was angry with me because I was not there for her when I was laid up with my back and on pain killers and depressed over my dad slowly dying of heart disease! She said she was lonely so she met this guy on her phone who was 40 she is 58 and was buffed and sent her pictures with his shirt off and sitting on a chair with his shirt off and playing with a orange cell phone. Well to make a long story short the guy was not real she was scammed for 64 thousand dollars of her own money and I found out that she has been very sexual in nature in texting with the scammer. As far as myself I am extremely angry and it is like she is upset because he is not real or is another person in the picture and she lost 64 thousand dollars. I got the police involved and she is mad because I had to call her while she is on vacation to relieve her stress from all of this! Missing in all of this is myself I lost it with her and told her she is narcissistic! Nothing about hurting me or thanking me from trying to save her money! She is very immature and I told her we can go to marriage counseling and told her if she does not go I am gone! Why I am trying to fix this I do not know! Her sister thinks I am nuts for trying to work on this but 23 years is hard to throw away! She said I would never trust her again and I said trust is earned not given! I am hanging by a thread and my love for her has turned to ANGER! Thanks Minesweeper you had the answer!

  377. Don says:

    Its funny never had a problem getting women and had some beautiful women but my problem has always been I put up with way to much shit because I want to be the nice guy and as always nice guys finish last! Way to many women out there to put up with shit from one! Besides I have my little jack russell Winston to keep me company! As for the rest of you men I am the poster child on how not to handle a woman!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  378. Minesweeper says:

    Don, sorry to her your news,the irony of her getting angry at you will be lost on her. I’ve seen this before and heard of it happening many times – an affair not working out – so I will lash out at the cheated on hubby. I would be surprised if she would go to counselling as she would feel like a complete ass for being taken in and thats she last thing she will want to admit too.

    If she is willing to do what you ask of her then you may have some hope in this, but once women have crossed that Rubicon line of following some other guy, the marriage is a dead duck in my experience. If a marriage has just stopped working, I think it can be restarted once the issue is resolved, but if she has moved on, I don’t have any hope. The guy can chase after skirt and still keep a marriage going, or come back to her as men can love multiple women at once. But not a women, once she has leapt for that (in her opinion) higher branch, she has let go of what she was holding onto. Only severe financial and dire straights bill bring her back to where she was previously and she will never be happy in that situation again.

    The main thing for you is to possibly get some counselling yourself or at least a close friend to work this out with. As at this stage women can seriously mess with your head – seriously. You can end up doing very strange things as they seem to replicate their internal madness into you – somehow.

    I have no idea how they do it, but they can literally drive men mad or destroy them completely. Men just don’t have the emotional intelligence to cope with a full on female emotionally crazed onslaught. It just seems like you are stuck in a madhouse while being pumped full of psychotic drugs.

    I don’t think you are a poster child, you just got caught up (as men do) in the lies, denials and unfathomable behaviour that occurs when a women decides to leave her senses behind. By following their feelings alone and if it fails, they can’t reconcile that their feelings told them the wrong thing to do, so it must be everyone and everything else.

    As they say alot around here – the hamster is strong in this one.

    A mental reframing exercise I like to do is that when you see a woman off her head, if you picture her in an asylum doing this in a padded room, it seems to make sense somehow. And peace is restored.

  379. Don says:

    Thank you again for your reply and you are 100 % right! I told her if she did not go to marriage counseling we were finished! She treated me horrible every time I tried to pry out of her what was going on. She is in Arizona with friends of ours wife that has no idea what is going on. She called me today and left a message that sounded like nothing ever happened! When I talked to her last night I was looking for her stock statements because she is going to have to sell some to get out of her financial mess! I asked where the statements were and she said YOU KNOW WHERE THEY ARE YOU ALWAYS GET IN TO MY STUFF AND I TOLD HER NO I DO NOT AND SHE THEN SAID ALL YOU WANT TO DO IS ARGUE ALL THE TIME! I responded that no I am not arguing with her. You are right she keeps on trying to start fights and I do not fall for it. I stay calm do not bring anything up and I think she gets frustrated because I will not give her any ammunition to fight with me. I have 2 friends that are helping me get through this as well as her younger sister and her husband who is a retired police captain. Both of them as well as their 22 year old son are thinking she is nuts because she throws guilt trips and fighting comments at them. She has no idea they know anything about this whole situation. She is also mad at me for getting the police involved. At this point I have no trust and very little love for her. The funny thing is I negotiated a 107 thousand dollar settlement for her from her employer for her knee and set her up with some attorneys I knew and she got her social security disability at 2000 thousand dollars a month! I also bought this house so she could own a home for the first time in her life 20 years ago! I have done so much for her and she takes me for granted! I asked her if she is narcissistic and she asked me what it meant. I told her it meant Cheryl her name! Thanks for all your support! Take care Don

  380. Luke says:

    Don, on the subject of what amount of gratitude you can reasonably expect from your current (or any) woman, I would refer you here to Briffault’s Law, particularly Corollary #2 :

    http://www.stickmanweekly.com/ReadersSubmissions2009/reader5546.htm

    BRIFFAULT’S LAW:

    “The female, not the male, determines all the conditions of the animal family. Where the female can derive no benefit from association with the male, no such association takes place.

    There are a few corollaries I would add:

    1) Past benefit provided by the male does not provide for continued or future association.

    2) Any agreement where the male provides a current benefit in return for a promise of future association is null and void as soon as the male has provided the benefit (see corollary 1)

    3) A promise of future benefit has limited influence on current/future association, with the influence inversely proportionate to the length of time until the benefit will be given and directly proportionate to the degree to which the female trusts the male (which is not bloody likely).”

  381. Don says:

    Thank you for your reply. I went through and read all about Briffault’s law. It sure did make a lot of sense! Especially of women today! I have control of most of our finances because she has no understanding of investments. I have my stock account in my name only and a rental property only in my name. As far as bank accounts only in my name. Her stock account and all her other accounts are only in her name. Her retirement account is on-line and is heavily diversified. I and only I have the passwords. I know her soc.security number and other personal information so if I wanted to I could really screw her financially! I am way to honest to do that but what really makes me mad I knew she was being scammed and I tried to stop it and she fought me all the way! She trusted someone who she met on her phone over someone she has been with for 23 years – GO FIGURE! Now she is embarrassed and I am very angry and I know the ip location of these scammers but realize they will never be caught! Although I was laid up I have been told I am a good looking guy who looks 10 years younger and I am in great shape working out with weights doing isometrics and aerobics everyday! Why would she want someone else? I make good money treat her like a queen drive a beautiful muscle car and when my parents pass I will be looking at about a million dollars! I do not beat her or abuse her in any way so I still never understand women! They are as evil as they come! No wonder my wealthy friend only date THIA WOMEN!

  382. theasdgamer says:

    @ Don

    I’ve been lurking and following your story. It seemed that there was some sort of third party in the picture and your story bears it out.

    I think your problem is that you are too available and reliable to your wife. She needs more uncertainty and risk. You need to become The Stranger by using some Soft Dread as exemplified by the male lover in the Song of Solomon. See my post about Soft Dread in the Song of Solomon. http://theasdgamer.wordpress.com/2014/09/08/implied-soft-dread-in-the-song-of-solomon/

  383. theasdgamer says:

    @ Don

    Also, women need an emotional cocktail of tingles, comfort, validation, and drama. It’s up to you as a husband to see what your wife needs emotionally and provide it. One thing I do is practice my pickup moves on my wife and she eats it up. Tingles.

    For comfort, talks and backrubs are good, as is lead-follow dancing.

    I only provide validation to a woman who is in my bed. Sex or no validation.

    For drama, it’s best to manage this so that your wife doesn’t hit you with an emotional ambush in order to generate drama. If your wife isn’t getting her drama supply for work or family, then you will need to concoct something yourself–hopefully fairly minor in impact. Going out dancing without her once a week should do this.

  384. Minesweeper says:

    Don, you need to stop enabling her, it will be hard as you have looked after her for so long. She probably doesn’t want you to do this either. She needs to fix her own mess or beg you for help.

    You probably (esp after her recent behaviour) should invoke some extended time apart with no contact for a while, as you may if you are to recover from her betrayal, need time to heal separately from her. With daily calls and you involved in her mess you will never get clarity with what to do next. She sounds like in mental turmoil and will drag you down with her into that pit of her own making.

    You got to get your head straight if you are going to get through this in any way. The best scenario would be you have time away from her, get your head clear and deal with your (righteous) anger. She reaches breaking point, realises her failings and resolves never to do anything like that again.

    But your position you are in right now is hellish, with her either blaming you or ignoring what happened. You neither know if you are coming or going.

    Does she fit the below profile :

    http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/stop-walking-eggshells/201109/the-world-the-borderline-mother-and-her-children

    The (BPD) Queen

    Typical Thoughts

    “I want more attention. I deserve more attention. And, by the way, what have you done for me lately?” Also, “My children should fulfil my needs, not the other way around. They don’t love or respect me if they disagree with me, go against my wishes, or have needs of their own.”

    Typical Feelings

    These include entitlement, deprivation, emptiness, anger, frustration, or loneliness from the deprivation they felt as children. Queens are impatient and have a low tolerance for frustration. They also push others’ boundaries without regret or recognition.

    Typical Actions and Central Dilemma

    Driven by feelings of emptiness and unable to soothe themselves, Queens do what it takes to get what they feel they so richly deserve–including vindictive acts like blackmail. Initially they may impress others with their social graces. But when “friends” can no longer deliver, the Queen cuts them off without a thought. Queens are capable of real manipulation (vs. more primitive BP defences) to get what they desire.

    Typical Thoughts, Emotions, and Actions of Family Members

    “I can’t meet this person’s needs; my best isn’t enough.”
    “Don’t I ever get to have any needs? (Better not say that or the Queen will leave me.)”
    “Why is everything always about her?”
    “If people only knew what an act the Queen puts on, they’d sure be shocked.”
    Family members who the Queen shames, ignores, or gives superficial attention learn that their worth depends on external things (cars, important titles).
    Non-BPs’ self-esteem also suffers–especially among those who become isolated or who had a Queen parent.
    Over time, non-BPs feel used, manipulated and angry–anger at the BP and at themselves for capitulating so much they no longer recognize themselves.
    Non-BPs give in to her wishes because it’s easier than maintaining personal limits.
    Less assertive non-BPs are vulnerable to distortion campaigns, unwilling or unable to protect themselves or their children.

    Or this one :
    The Witch

    Typical Thoughts

    Unconsciously, Witches hate themselves because they grew up in an environment that “required complete submission to a hostile or sadistic caregiver” (2000). They continue the cycle by acting cruelly to others, especially those who are too weak, young, or powerless to help themselves.

    Typical Emotions

    They feel no remorse for nightmarish acts, showing more interest in their own well-being than concern over the way they’ve hurt others. The Witch’s triggers include jealousy, criticism, betrayal, abandonment, feeling left out, and being ignored.

    Typical Actions and Central Dilemma

    Most BP parents do not physically abuse their children. Those who do probably fall into this category. However, the abuse usually occurs when other competent adults are not present. Thus, family members can live in fear while all seems well to the outside world.

    Witches want power and control over others so that others do not abandon them. When someone or something triggers the Witches’ abandonment fear, these BPs can become brutal and full of rage, even punishing or hurting family members who stand in their way (2000). These types of BPs are most resistant to treatment: they will not allow others to help and the source of self-loathing is very deep.

    Typical Thoughts, Emotions, and Actions of Family Members

    “I will comply with what she wants. Resistance is futile. I will be assimilated.”
    Fear in victims.
    Denial on the part of those who could protect the victims.
    Tries not to trigger the witch. But her behavior is not really about the non-BP, so this strategy doesn’t work.

  385. Don says:

    Thank you I guess being reliable honest and giving and faithful but I guess what I really am is a fool! I found out she was showing the picture of this guy who is not real to her sisters. She is in Arizona right now and I left her a message she can deal with the attorney on her own and go get her medical insurance on her own and deal with her finances on her own. Boy I wrote the book on being a fool!

  386. theasdgamer says:

    @ Don

    No, Don, you’ve just been misinformed about relationships. There’s lots of bad relationship advice out there about open and honest communication.

    When a woman is being controlled by her emotional centers in a bad way, you have to treat her like a precocious child. Discipline is key. Don’t argue–just hold your frame and demand obedience. Then enforce it. Don’t treat her like she’s an enemy.

  387. Minesweeper says:

    Don, one thing, now that she has lost all this money, if you guys divorce, wont they just split the assets, i.e. you will share half of her losses ?

  388. Don says:

    I had a long talk with her tonight after screaming at her earlier today. I am listening and being played like a fiddle just like her. I listen to much to her sisters and her brother-in-law who cannot stand her. You are the only one who has given me good advice on this whole thing. Her sisters were telling her to run from me when my back was bothering me and yet telling me to leave her now that this is going on. Her brother-in-law was doing the same thing. They all have problems in their own lives and relationships and yet focus on us because I tell them way too much! We actually had a real accomplished talk tonight over our situation and she admitted to me that she has been very wrong in this whole thing is very sorry for hurting me and I asked her why this all happened? We talked it out and we both really want this to work and are going to go to marriage counseling. I am willing to forgive her and I acknowledged that I was not there for her. The money is gone but on the other hand hopefully this will bring us closer! Thank you Minesweeper and theasdgamer

  389. theasdgamer says:

    @ Don

    Your wife is playing you. She is sabotaging your relationships with her sisters and brother in law because she doesn’t want you getting info from them.

    Marriage counseling together is a really dumb idea. She is setting you up for an abuse accusation so that she can rape you financially in court.

    But it sounds like you want to delude yourself, so good luck with that.

    “I was not there for her.” Seriously?

    Women aren’t men and don’t think like men. Your wife is very deceptive and manipulative. Don’t trust her.

  390. Don says:

    Believe me I hear what you are saying! No my brother-in-law and her sisters have caused a lot of problems in the past and she is not totally wrong in regards to them. She will not rape me in court as you say because I am financially protected and actually if I was dishonest I could take her to the cleaners! I have control of her biggest account which has a third of her assets. She actually has me as the beneficiary of all her accounts. She admitted to me she has made a big mistake said she is very sorry and I told her if we did not get counseling I would be leaving. She is not very savvy when it comes to finances! Thank you for your concern Don

  391. theasdgamer says:

    Don, you have the boots on the ground and the most to lose. Please get confirmation from an independent source of whatever your wife tells you.

    Counselors are almost entirely feminist in orientation and will recommend divorce and blame the man for 90% of the problems. Be very careful with counselors.

  392. Minesweeper says:

    Don, ignore her sisters – being women they just love DRAMA, relationships forming or breaking up, its all good to them, as it fuels drama in everyone’s life. They behave the same in high school.

    I’ve asked you this question several times and you have never got back to me, does your wife have BPD ?

  393. Don says:

    Sorry I never replied to you about BPD. I checked in to that and no she does not have that. Yes her sisters are drama queens and have told her to run from me when I was laid up with a bad back and popping the pain killers like candy. Meanwhile they are both in very controlling marriages and ignore their own problems! Now they tell me to run and I told them what is going on between their sister and myself we will either work it out or not. As far as my wife she has told me she got very lonely when I was laid up with my back and zoning out on the pain killers. I slowly have weaned myself off the pain killers and work out everyday. I feel 100% better physically. I had a long talk last night with the wife for 2 hours listened to her and heard her complaints and she told me she was very sorry for all the pain she caused me! We are going to go to marriage counseling and I am very cautious about it. I have protected myself financially and will hope for the best. As far as the scam she got caught up in I traced one of the e-mails to a guy in New Jersey. I talked to the police about it last night and they told me to pass on the information to the property crimes division. I am done with that after this. Thank you for your concern and I guess I have made this site my own drama site!

  394. Minesweeper says:

    Don thats good to know, if this was the only weird episode that has occurred then hopefully things can be righted. I would probably say that you will need to have full access to all her funds from now on to ensure she dosn’t do anything this daft again. And that she will be held accountable for any money disappearing.

    Never underestimate the pull of the ‘strange’ for women, even if its not in their grasp, it seems to have some weird hold, which is why you get alot of far away scammers getting money out of older women.

    I don’t understand it either, if I was going to throw it all away she had better be in my bed at least, not half way around the world with only promises and demands for money.

    You will need to watch her like a hawk from now on, as the addiction and drama she will have had in this process she will seem to gravitate back towards. Normally in a more civilised time, some ‘discipline’ and shaming from the husband/relatives/village/priest would have been appropriate to reset her base desires back to their previous configuration.

    Can I ask how you protected your finances in all of this ? In most western countries gains + losses inside the marriage are shared equally(pensions,shares,property,funds), how did you manage not to have to bear her losses in a divorce ? This would be news to alot of men, cause if your partner goes nuts on your credit card or whatever, you are generally left holding the bill.

    Do you know what I mean? say you had almost equal assets and you split, you would walk away with what you had. But if she blew her share and you split, she would take half of yours. Make sense ?

    How would you have avoided that ?

  395. Don says:

    Yes this is the only weird incident that I have experience in 23 years we have been together. Last night talking to her on the phone I quietly listened to her and what she had to say without myself interrupting her! I had called her earlier and ranted and raved and screamed at her earlier in the day. She cried and I felt horrible. I then went out and with some old friends including a couple who were separated because he wanted to at 58 years of age go out and have fun. When I saw how much pain his wife was in it made me want to forgive my wife and really work hard on our marriage. She had called an old friend and told her what happened and her response was having known both of us for the last 20 years told her you have a man that really loves you very much and that is hard to find! I am not a fat 57 year old guy I belong to a gym and I work out 5-7 days a week. I am told by a number of women how good looking I am. I am a one woman man who does not cheat and I do understand why she was lonely. Hopefully we can work on this out together and keep her sisters and brother-in-law out of this and it will make us stronger! I get very upset inside when I see her crying. As far as finances go I do have the upper hand and control everything. I want to thank you for all your advice and helpful comments! Take care

  396. Don says:

    I walk slowly through this very very cautious and even wondering if I want to? What does one thing a woman has on a man that keep him around? Great sex! But that also works on both sides as I am in great shape and at 57 almost have a six pack from working out everyday. It is funny how things change even in a short time! I am having lunch with my ex-wife but I will not cheat on my wife as I do not believe two wrongs make a right! I asked her to bring her boyfriend but she told me she did not want to. As far as our finances my stocks and stock account is only in my name as well as my rental property. Her stocks are as the same and the only thing in both our names is our house. Take care Don

  397. Don says:

    P.S. MY EX IS A HOTTIE WITH STRAWBERRY-BLONDE HAIR!

  398. Minesweeper says:

    do why is she your ex ? :)

  399. Minesweeper says:

    *so

  400. Don says:

    Because I was a terrible husband and was never there for her! I was to young to be married and went out partying with my friends at the time. As far as my wife now goes my feelings for her are very low so I am very vulnerable especially with my ex! I LOOK UP TO GOD AND SAY ” I AM TIRED OF BEING THE GOOD GUY AND I AM PISSED”!!!

  401. Don says:

    It is interesting that out of all this the good thing is my health has improved so much more I lost 45 pounds joined a gym and feel 1000 times better physically! I am empty inside towards her but I will either try again or end up with someone else or my ex as when she called me tonight I was happy as I had ever been in ages! I do not trust my wife as I am sure you understand why and she is on facebook and has her cell! If there is no trust then what is left? What I Ado not understand is I am in great shape look 10 years younger then anyone my age and treat her very good! What is she looking for? She is 58 is a good looking woman but very flirtatious but on the positive side she is very generous and other things I cannot mention. I know she has never cheated on me for a fact and this is why I want to give her another chance! Oh well my life is like “AS THE WORLD TURNS”

  402. Don says:

    So after getting off the phone tonight with her and after all the shit she has put me through and her shitty comments to me I have decided to stick around and find myself a younger woman and see my ex also and one day give back her medicine! I finally realize as women get older they become more self-centered and only give a shit about themselves and I am with the queen of them! Men keep on hitting the gym and get a hot car unless you are lucky enough to get a good one! NO WONDER SO MANY MEN GO GAY!!!!!!!!!

  403. Don says:

    So enough about me how is your life? Do you have a self-centered woman in your life? Where do you live? I am in northern california but the girls are not like the 1960′s “CALIFORNIA GIRLS”! To bad we could not meet for coffee? You have been a lot of help! Thank you so much!

  404. Minesweeper says:

    Don, you may need to have some time with no contact to get your head clear. Try not to do anything on the spur of the moment. At the moment she is just driving you nuts. You can probably get through this and back to normal in your relationship, I doubt she will be either willing or able to return to what you had before, but its not impossible. Internally she is blaming you for the fact she “had to” find someone else and then got conned, nuts it is.

    My life, golly, where to begin, apart from being sucked into a blackhole and de-materialised… you get the picture. I’m in the UK atm, thankfully not involved with any self centred females of any kind !

    Have been to California a few times, always loved it.

  405. Don says:

    I know I am reading my posts and it sure does sound crazy. I am all over the place with my feelings. Yes her reactions to all of this have made me very angry! Women today are very manipulative and my feelings are like a roller coaster! I went on some sites of what men are going through and it seems to be quite rampant of what I am going through. Electronics have become the devil and women seem to be following it. It is amazing what women can do to a man! I will never get married again! My ex when she called me last night asked me why I was still staying in the relationship and I told her as much as what she had done to me I still loved her but at this point I think I am afraid at 57 to change. She then asked me name 5 redeeming qualities she had and for the life of me I could not come up with any. Boy I have always been strong but when I met her 23 yrs. ago and she was very beautiful not that she still isnt she was as you say one of those women to watch your steps with! Isn’t it funny how she pulls this shit goes away to get rid of the stress and leaves me with 4 dogs and a cat to take care of! Then tells me over the phone ” you said you would have the house clean but you never stick to your word”! I could write a book! I guess being in the UK tea would be in order! My wife’s grandmother was from liverpool and her sisters tell me she is just like the grandmother! Yes I will slow down with my thoughts and take a step back! Women? are women in the UK like American women? Being a car guy I think I shall focus on my muscle car! We just sold my wife’s 1960 mga roadster she had had it since she was 17. AHHHHHHH what is the old saying? Where angels dare to tread? Take care

  406. Minesweeper says:

    Don, they seem to be pretty awful everywhere feminism has taken root. A step back would be useful, just go no contact for a while unless you really need to, and then via email only in emergencies. You can only deal with your emotions when hers are out of your face. And for some reason, women have no off switch or feel they have to restrict their displays of emotion no matter how destructive it may be.

    I’ve been asked that question once too “name the redeeming qualities she had” – I had the same answer :) couldn’t think of one single thing.

  407. Don says:

    Yes my wife comes home from Arizona ion saturday and she is afraid to face me as she is ashamed of what she has done at least that is what she tells me. I do not know what to believe out of her anymore! I am going to college for a course and going to find other activities in my life as so I can keep my distance from her most of my time. I called her this morning and left her a message I felt it would be nice if we could go on but I know she is not happy staying with me and if we stay together I felt she would only do this again in the near future. I am having a hard time with all of this because it is hard changing at 57 and having her around for 23 years of course I would miss her. She is like a different person then the one I have known for 23 years. I guess the hard part I am having with all of this is I have always done so much to help her and given her so much and been so faithful to her and as her friend told her you have a man that loves you very much and that is hard to find! So what is up with her? Is she just taking me for granted or does she want to date others? As she tells me the grass is not greener on the other side so where the hell is she coming from. She has always seemed to gravitate towards her friends and every relationship she has had before me only lasted 1-2 years at most. They always cheated on her! This woman after 23 years is becoming a stranger to me! If she thinks that she will meet a man in his 40′s good luck with that he will take her money and leave her high and dry! Then again maybe thats what she needs!

  408. Minesweeper says:

    Im sure it will be hard to change at 57 or any age, unfortunately she has forced your situation. Just how do you make good when this happens ? I honestly feel that women think that they have far better prospects in the marriage market than they have, its strange to see, but I see it alot, women kicking out their husbands to then settle a few years down the line with someone less attractive and with less money.
    If she is a stranger to you already, it might make it easier, but isn’t it amazing just how fast they change ?? Or is it just the real person being reviled. One thing for sure, it will shatter your preconceptions of what women are like.
    Societies evolved to include intense social shaming and punishments for women as they are far more likely to stray. Those deterrents have been removed, so now we see them as they are.
    Not to say it dosn’t work for alot of people, but I have absolutely no idea how.

  409. JF says:

    I am in the process of divorcing a frigid wife. I do not take this lightly at all. I have been with her for plenty of time–too, too long. If I told you folks how infrequently we have had sex and for how long, you would all know how foolish I have been. I have given her every chance in the world, and it only makes her arch her back and dig in more. And worst of all, the several “Christian” counselors we have seen have only exacerbated things by empowering her and seeking to emasculate me, just as is outlined on my posts on this blog. I just found this blog. Wow, is it ever enlightening. This wife’s brand frigidity is so bad, she cannot/will not even engage in any form of intimacy whatsoever. She is, I am sure, what the shrinks would call a “love avoidant,” and were she a man, both the shrinks and the “christian counselors” would be reproving her. But she doesn’t have the penis, so she can do no wrong in their eyes. Going to counselors with her over the past few years has been worse than the marriage itself. I still do not know if or how I ever get over what I have wasted here. Yes, there are children involved. A beloved girl and boy. I love them more than my own life. But I cannot stay with this frigid, rebellious woman. It has cost me my health already, and my finances. Long, sad story. But the horrendous counseling we got!!!! I wanted to scream so many times!!! I still do!!!

  410. JF says:

    I forgot to mention: If only it had been the total and comprehensive and all-exhaustive frigidity. No, that wasn’t all of it. The other part of it is, the only times she ever WOULD pay attention to me would be to criticize me about something.
    Guys, I only wish I was exaggerating.
    Trying to do the “Christian thing” by staying married to someone like this has cost me so dearly. Hey, have I told you about the time I was having chest pains and she made me drive myself to the emergency room of the hospital? Yeah, looked right at me, and made it clear to me: I was on my own. Yeah, good times I’ve had with this piece of ice. Oh, the good times.
    I am the world’s biggest fool.

  411. Don says:

    Run not walk from her I was in a relationship like that and was ready to leave until she got cancer and I stayed with her until she died! I hate to say this but I felt released from prison when she died. Now I am going through real hell with my current wife who is whacked out and we are trying marriage counseling only because I told her if we did not I was gone. It is a long story and has been going on for about 6 weeks the longest of my life and I give us very little hope even with marriage counseling! I am planning to go on without her and she does not know it. I have lost any love I have had for her and I think it is just being use to her that is why I am here! I will take the sex while I get it! NO YOU ARE THE 2ND BIGGEST FOOL I GET THAT CROWN!

  412. Minesweeper says:

    JF, seems to be when you get any counselling\churches involved all the blame falls back on the man because NO-ONE will call out the woman on any of her behaviour NO-ONE.

    It’s like this has been removed as an option recently, atm in counselling\churches there is no comeback allowed on the female for any reason. Even in the law, they can get away with lying and practically anything and still be supported\cherished … Ad nauseam..

    I’m not sure at all how you could construct a relationship with someone who has zero conditions applied to them and zero comeback against anything that they do.

    It’s impossible. As you will discover even with your children in divorce, you don’t have rights, you have permission, granted by her. And she knows it.

    Men are the frogs, and the water has just reached boiling point.

  413. Minesweeper says:

    We value women so highly because they produce children and care for them. If you imagine a sterile female who hates children, she will have little value.

    Their comeback will come when we realise how little women value children and how destructive their actions are towards them by destroying family, they have destroyed their children’s happiness.

  414. Don says:

    Yes indeed we are the frogs as you say and women are the boiling water! Perhaps my good friend has it right! He got tired of his wife’s shit left her and met a younger woman. He said he meets women all the time but I told him thats because he has money and a lot to boot! The only woman that truly cares for him is his wife but he told me that if he moved back in 3 months from now he would just be unhappy again! It is almost like putting the shoe on the other foot!

  415. Minesweeper says:

    Its the combination of attraction AND care/love that we are all after.

  416. JF says:

    Thank you, Don, thank you, Minesweeper. I actually fully expected to be ridiculed for being such a fool for so long. So thank you. What you Minesweeper said about children growing up to realize their mom has destroyed their happiness—wow, is that ever going to be true here someday. I’m pretty sure, anyway. I finally gave my wife an ultimatum: Start acting like a wife, start having sex more than once every season, and start having that sex not be 100% mechanical, and start touching my actual skin with your own actual hands, and start sharing SOMEthing of your life with me, SOME activity, like going for occasional walks, etc, or I am going to divorce your a## by such and such date. That surprised her. Actually, I had been chopping down a few trees with an axe for a few weeks right before that. Apparently, chopping wood raises testosterone more than just about anything else. It sure worked for me. I wasn’t taking any more sh#t and i let her know it. Naturally, she didn’t even begin to change, though. So i sent her an email. I figured, given the total lack of importance she placed in sex or ANY matter involving intimacy of ANY kind, then email was the perfect medium. So i sent her the email: “Would it be okay if I started having sex with someone else?” The next thing I knew (two days later), she was moving out with the children (against my wishes, of course). So on her way out of the house, I let it be known to her that:
    A) There never was anybody else.
    B) I was just testing her to see how she would react, to see if she would react hypocritically, given the ludicrously low level of importance she had placed sex during all of our marriage—so why so important now all of a sudden, hmm?
    That was 10 or so months ago. This is our 3rd separation, by the way. The children always happen during reconciliation (one of the few times she actually engages in sex), and only because the ONLY form of predictable sex she will engage in (after midnight, lights off, when i am half asleep) does involve the risk of pregnancy. Not that I am complaining about having my two children. I would die for them. It KILLS me to not see them during the week, and Sunday nights, when they cry for me as I am passing them back off to their emotionally absentee mother, they cry and lurch towards my car and it tears my heart out. Sunday nites are when I drink. I can resist on other nites, but Sunday nites? Oh God, no.
    Get this: The wife gets served this week. I have waited this long because she has swore to me up and down that she want to do it the “rational” way, through a legal mediator, and not fatten the coffers of two pairs of lawyers like we started doing the last time, before the last idiotic reconciliation. But she has been stalling, and stalling, and stalling, and lying, and FINALLY, when I can pin her down to some basic starting point of a proposal to take into a mediator, it is OUTRAGEOUSLY onerous to me. I have been warning her for weeks now that I am very close to going nuclear and hiring the lawyer, and that, if I do, I am going to be addressing some things that are going to make her rather uncomfortable (l will be asking the court to send her to parenting class because of her habitual endangerment of our children. My God, I will do this even if it means I have to go also myself. She leaves them unattended in bath tubs and swimming pools, lets them play with sharp scissors, etc.) But apparently, she doesn’t think I will actually do this. Stupid, very stupid. I hired the lawyer a few days ago. She will be served within a couple days. I saw her today, as I went to see my little boy for a few hours. She looked a bit more chipper than I have seen her lately, as though she seemed to be thinking that she would soon be having her way again. Oh God, oh God, oh God, is she ever mistaken this time. I even removed her from being the beneficiary on my life insurance, AND I HAVE A RATHER VERY LAWFUL REASON FOR DOING SO that she has left herself open to.
    I hate to do this.
    She has forced me. Left me no other option
    But again, the thing I take away and get stung by the most in all this is: HER “CHRISTIAN” COUNSELORS AND “EVANGELICAL” FRIENDS CONTINUE TO PUFF HER UP WITH BAD ADVICE about how I will be the bastard if I actually pursue divorce, and my God, do they ever totally totally totally totally totally totally totally ignore her compete violation of her covenental marriage vows to me, and her complete undermining and defiance of my authority whatsoever.
    Churchianity, Inc., and all of its 501c3 false prophets is/are 100% hellbound.
    When my soon-to-be-ex-wife reaches her spinsterhood someday, she can look back on these Christ-claiming harlots and finally know that they gave her the worst, most anti-scriptural advice that anyone could have given her.

  417. Don says:

    JF I think part of your problem as well as mine we waited to long to put our foot down as they say! It is to bad your children bear the brunt of her frigidness! As far as getting more confident join a club start eating healthier and buy a muscle car! I have always associated being more of a man with driving a hot and fast machine! I get off on driving as fast as I can on a long stretch of highway {PROVIDING THERE ARE NO COPS} hell my brother-in-law is a retired police captain and has a 65 vette a 55 chevy and a 55 big window pick up! Last time I was in the Arizona desert I was with my 83 year old dad in my challengerSRT8 I was hitting 130 and right when I slowed down a cop came up behind me. There is no way my dad could have driven that car after they threw me in the slammer! I suggest all you guys watch AMERICAN BEAUTY with Kevin Spacey! It reminds me so much of my wife but then again it reminds me of me also! I love the part where his wife comes home and he had traded in the camry! My wife called me tonight from Arizona and it might be we have turned the corner and are headed towards working it all out! She comes home in 3 days and I asked her how she felt? Her response she is scared and I said why I am not going to fight with you over all this anymore! I told her I could forgive her in time but I will never forget and if there is ever a next time I will be gone and never look back! She said she is scared I will leave her and I told her not as long as we go to marriage counseling! She agreed but wants to spend time with me before we start going and then she launched her silo’s and said “WE WILL HAVE HOT SEX WHEN I GET HOME”! I knew she had the upper hand then! LONG BLONDE CURLY HAIR AND A GREAT FIGURE AND A BEAUTIFUL SMILE I lost this round!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  418. PossumJenkins says:

    This has played out differently for me. As a result of panic attacks I’m now taking a medicine that completely kills sex drive as a side-effect. My wife would use the “V-Power” as reward and punishment. Now that this no longer holds any sway with me she has freaked out. Her hamster has gone into overdrive trying to figure out what to do now.

  419. Don says:

    Wow! Is it not amazing how we as men let women control us because of our sex drive! I see that when I was younger and more independent I had women chase after me and try to use sex as a weapon to get me but I had a network of friends that I would have rather been with! sexual emotions are a strong tool that women have learned to use as great weapon of choice! Number 1 on top of the list is the beautiful women that can usually get any man she wants. I am amazed at how many of us men are screwed up in the head because of women!

  420. Don says:

    Yes I agree and I think men are more up front on emotions where women use emotions and manipulate them to get what they want. As I have told my wife just be honest thats all I ask. Again thank you for all your responses!

  421. Minesweeper says:

    Yeah, I’ve turned down quite alot of women over the last few years, and I have to say they universally take it very badly indeed. Women just arn’t used to being told ‘no’ generally and esp when regards to relations with males.
    The disappointment that shows on their faces really is something to behold, I guess men hide their disappointment alot better.
    If I can confess I began to enjoy their disappointment ! and I’m not even sure why.

  422. Don says:

    I am 57 and cannot believe how many single women there are out there and good looking one’s to! Of course there are the gold diggers looking for a man with money and then they wonder why they are single! My 58 year old friend left his wife and now has a good looking 45 year old girlfriend and quite a few offers from women but he has a lot of money and a lot of these women are just looking for a guy with big bucks which to me makes them shallow as hell!

  423. Minesweeper says:

    Well the big thing about coming out of a marriage for a guy is to have money, you’ll tend to find with our divorce\child support laws that tends not to happen much in my experience !

  424. Minesweeper says:

    @PossumJenkins says:
    September 18, 2014 at 12:29 pm
    “This has played out differently for me. As a result of panic attacks I’m now taking a medicine that completely kills sex drive as a side-effect. My wife would use the “V-Power” as reward and punishment.”

    You could also use your “V-Power” as reward and punishment.” – for men its called Viagra :)

    The hamster pellet for males.

  425. Don says:

    MY GOD HAVE WE AS MEN LOST OUR MINDS BECAUSE OF WOMEN? OUR FATHERS AND GRANDFATHERS WOULD HAVE TOLD ALL THESE WOMEN TO GET OUT! OF COURSE OUR MOTHERS AND GRANDMOTHERS WOULD NEVER HAVE ACTED LIKE THESE WOMEN! WOMEN NOW DAYS ARE THE DEVILS ADVOCATES!!!!!!!!!

  426. The real me says:

    I agree. Seems there’s two extremes with most women. The slut or the fridged.
    When I was 17 & working in a book shop I got talking to a wise old lady. I took a piece of advice she gave me that day. She said once you have a man the only way to keep him is to never say no!
    That isn’t to say women should open their legs to any man whenever he so much as pays a small compliment. …..that would make you a slut.
    But instead once you find and know that you found the right man you should keep him happy. He stays because he wants to so make him want to.
    Why should you want to control anyone? Ok maybe if for instance I wanted to say go somewhere and he wasn’t too keen it could take some convincing but surely that works both ways? After all be it male or female we all have different wants and desires that we can’t possibly expect everyone else to want.
    I said I live by the moto of never say no but there has been times when I didn’t want to. The reason for that was not that I couldn’t be bothered or even that I didn’t want to but because it had begun to feel one sided.
    I guess I put clauses into that ‘never say no’. Because I also live by ‘you get what you give’.

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