Slow your roll

A little over 400 comments into the discussion of Radio Silence and Dread, a blogger by the handle Prov Erbs asked:

Please help Dalrock or anyone else! What does Christian dread look like in detail for a married couple of 15+ years? I feel like what I need is dread in my marriage now. It’s not healthy, though it has improved significantly with much prayer and this site. I want to honor Christ. I want to have lots of sex with just my wife and the mother of my two children. I’ve never been with another woman. I have temptations b/c I’m like the guy in the spreadsheet. Heck, I’d take his ratio now compared to whatI I’m getting. Please help! Thank you.

Gin Martini suspects we are being wound up here, and that is always possible.  However, either way the question is an excellent opening for a much needed follow on post.

In the Radio Silence post I carefully carved out a sliver of Dread, and many are taking that as an invitation to take the whole cheese wheel.  Writing about Game from a Christian perspective is extremely difficult because this is in many ways new territory and there are very important moral considerations to get right.  At the same time, we have two distinct groups desperate to pull us to either the right hand or the left.

On the one side we have the prevailing view of modern Christianity, which is an unknowing but enthusiastic adoption of a cross dressing view of biblical roles.  Under this theological gender bending view husbands aren’t to lead their wives in biblical headship, but are to submit to their wives as the Apostle Peter instructed wives to do with their husbands in 1 Pet 3.  Actually it is worse than this, because this cross dressing view wouldn’t even permit husbands to win their wives over without a word.  Under the cross dressing view of marital roles, husbands can’t even remain silent if it means allowing their wives to feel discomfort with their sin.

On the other side we have those who want to toss out biblical instruction on marriage or at least rationalize it away, when being faithful gets in the way of effective Game.  No, you can’t cheat or put yourself in compromising positions.  No you can’t threaten to cheat.  No you can’t divorce or threaten to divorce if she doesn’t have sex with you, or if she isn’t as excited about it as we all would wish.  If your primary goal is to have sex, you aren’t at the right place.  Why expend all of this effort on Biblical Rationalization Game when $50 and a trip across town would almost surely accomplish the goal?  I’m not minimizing the importance of sex in biblical marriage, as the Apostle Paul explains in 1 Cor 7 that you would be better off not marrying unless you feel passionate desire, and that denying sex is a sin and creates temptation for sexual sin.  But never forget that when he says to marry if you burn with passion he isn’t talking about how to get sex, he is talking about how to be obedient to Christ.

Getting to the question from Prov Erbs, I took only a quick scan of his latest post and one other page.  I certainly can’t have the whole picture, but from what little I’ve read my advice would be to stop thinking about sex and focus on being a Christian husband and father.  His focus needs to be on being head of a Christian home where the wife is in profound rebellion while the children are taking everything in.  If he brings his house back into order he very likely will make real gains on the sex front, but focusing on sex is killing him.  From his male action plan page:

I don’t want to have sex with anyone else. I only want to have sex with her. Even in my dreams, and I’ve been dreaming a lot about sex, I only want to have sex with her. Sex is not boring with her b/c I love her and she’s the mother of my children. It was never boring for me at least, which is why I’ve gotten even more oneitis. God is my one and only, she is not my one and only. Yet, I’m struggling here….

This script is killing him.  She has the cookie and he keeps eying it in his mind, wishing she would give it to him.  What he needs to focus on is being head of the family.  Unfortunately the cross dressing fetishists have been extremely creative in subverting him legally, and most fellow Christians won’t be of much help as they are enraptured with the cross dressing model.  He needs to keep a clear head and remember his role of biblical headship.  I would start by reading Headship Game, but I’m sure my readers will have suggestions as well.  But either way his goal needs to be to lead his wife as a loving Christian husband.  She is mired in sin and rebellion, and he needs to do everything he can to help her reject the path she is on.

In his latest post Ice Melting, he gives a summary of their situation and describes what he sees as signs of improvement.  I think he’s taking some big red flags way too lightly, as his wife is repeatedly and deliberately putting herself in a position to have sex with other men:

1. She still has been going out to CrossFit across town. She’s been going 4-5x/week.
2. She still has been going out to lunches, no more dinners, with her gym mates. I’ve seen pictures online on Facebook, and it’s almost always – at least on 5 different occasions – her and 5-7 men. There are almost never any women in these pictures.
3. She has been communicating with her old CrossFit friends in our new area, and she’s been itching to go again.

He explains in closing that he isn’t taking action on this because:

I still don’t like that she goes out with men so much, but I see no evidence of flirting or adultery so I can’t say much. She continues to say she’s an older sister to them. (Christian women often say this.) She looks really young for a 40 year old, but she’s still a 40 year old hanging out with 20 and early 30’s men, so I can’t say I’m too worried. Plus mate guarding isn’t going to help me at all, so I’m just pulling back.

There is no biblical role where married women go out to lunch with men.  Also, at 40 her targeting younger men, often much younger men, fits with their relative SMVs.  This is what the cougar phenomenon is all about.  Women who are declining in attractiveness are pursuing younger men who haven’t yet come into their own.  Such men aren’t yet attractive enough to attract a suitable wife or girlfriend, but they are very often willing to accept some no strings sex from an aging woman who is still hot enough.

He needs to make it clear that this is wildly, horribly inappropriate.  They aren’t living in the same house and she is carrying on like a whore.  She may not be cheating on him, but she is acting like a whore.  Forget mate guarding, what would a loving father say to his daughter if she were acting like a whore?  What would Yiayia say?   I would make it painfully clear what she is acting like, from the frame of the man who is charged with washing her in the water of the word, not from a frame of “you won’t have sex with me but you are going out with these other men!”  I would make addressing this and what I’m sure is a whole host of related behavior a priority.  There is nothing innocent or appropriate about it.  She needs to acknowledge what she is doing and repent.  I would treat it like an alcoholic, not just stopping the specific set of inappropriate behavior but stopping the pattern she is engaged in here.

I would focus on this issue with his pastor.  Hopefully the pastor understands how wildly inappropriate this is for a Christian wife.  If this doesn’t get some fire in his belly, nothing will.  If possible, members of the church should reinforce the husband’s message that this is unacceptable.  Ideally he should find an older woman who has strong Christian sexual values to counsel his wife in line with Titus 2:

the older women likewise, that they be reverent in behavior, not slanderers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things— that they admonish the young women to love their husbands, to love their children, to be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God may not be blasphemed.

His wife will of course go nuts when called out on her whorish behavior.  Be ready for emotional outbursts in a fevered attempt to rebuild the mound.  Don’t take the bait and let her change the frame.  Moreover, she will absolutely hate the idea of an older Christian woman teaching her about how to be a proper Christian wife.  She will hate it because it gives the good faithful woman status over her while it calls out her need for repentance.  It is essential not to give in to her excuses not to do this, no matter how convincing, hysterical and emotional they get (and they will).  He can’t force her to do it, but she can’t force him to back down from what he knows is right.  Part of the beauty of this is it will help the pastor and others see the wife’s wild rebellion.  Why won’t she talk to this nice lady from the church?  This is straight out of the Bible.  Don’t waver on this or help her make excuses for it to the pastor or the older woman or anyone else.  Let her rebellion speak for itself.

His other immediate focus should be on reestablishing his overall frame of leader of the home.  His prior decision to leave the marital home could make this more difficult, because basically moving out is like an ultimatum.  Straighten up or I won’t come back.  Do as I say, or else.  The problem with ultimatums is if the other person chooses or else.  Moving back in will almost certainly be seen as him caving, but it probably is still the right thing to do if he wants to try to establish himself as head of the house.  One opportunity here is that they are already apparently planning a joint move to a new home. However, she is leading the process and picking out the home:

5. We will have a 4BR home waiting for us when we move. She said she got a 4BR instead of a 3BR so that we could live together/separate bedrooms. When I told her that husbands and wives should sleep together, she said this is the first step. I did not agree to move in yet.

He needs to at least lead the process to pick the house, and better yet flat out pick it out and start everything in motion.  He needs to hold firm on the smaller home, and she can sleep on the couch if she refuses to sleep with her husband.  If he needs to budge here, he could go so far as to sleep on the couch himself.  I know this is heresy from a Game perspective, but he may need to make this compromise to get the rest in motion.

One thing to keep in mind in all of this is the kids are watching.  He also has a sacred leadership role to his own children.  He needs to make it clear what Christian marriage really is, and not feed the confusion his wife is trying to create.  She wants to create a situation where divorce or separation is his fault or nobody’s fault.  He needs to conduct himself in such a way that they can clearly see and understand what should be happening even if his wife ultimately blows up the family (and there is in my opinion a very high risk this is what will happen).  This isn’t just about here and now or the next five years, it is about their understanding of marriage when they become adults.   Having one of them sleep on the couch fits with this aim, as it will counteract her efforts to normalize what she is doing (turning her husband into a beta orbiter).  Along the same lines:

  1. Don’t threaten to divorce or divorce without clear and unambiguous cause.  I won’t go into the differences between Protestants and Catholics and Orthodox here, but whatever your denomination follow it and don’t try to get creative in justifying divorce.
  2. Don’t pretend their mother isn’t in rebellion and doing wildly inappropriate things.  He doesn’t need to bring them into it, but he shouldn’t pretend this is no big deal.  They already know this is a big deal, and not only is it better not to lie but it will be less troubling for them as well.
  3. Unfortunately he is going to have to model the fact that Christians will at times have to suffer for their obedience to God.  His example should be one of strength of conviction, not showing self pity or calling attention to his suffering.

This isn’t going to be easy, and as I already said I think there is unfortunately a good chance his wife will blow up the family.  However, this only reinforces the importance of focusing on faithful headship and setting an example for his children.

If he can manage the immediate problems eventually he should be able to get to a place where he can benefit from Cane’s advice to Tacomaster.  Somewhere along the way his wife is likely to stop denying sex, if only temporarily.  This could be an attempt by her to manipulate him, it could be due to returning attraction as he takes on the role of leader, or it could be due to a desire on her part to fulfill the biblical role of wife.  Most likely it will be some combination of the three.  Her motivation doesn’t matter, he should simply take her as is his right.  One of the other things I noticed in his male action plan page is a concern about his performance:

I can’t seem to bring her to orgasm through intercourse. I have to use my hands, mouth, etc. She doesn’t really want to orgasm too much, she says that it’s too intense. She’s repeatedly saying she wants a gentle lover. We we’re virgins when we got married, so we have only had sex with one another. It was really great the first 7 years or so just learning, exploring, and being playful with one another. I just wanted it more than her after we had kids, but even then she complied and I remember it being happy. She’s never complained strongly unless I really pushed her to have sex when she’s not into it.

A loving husband will want to satisfy his wife, but his frame is of a performer being judged.  This is a hook for his wife to manipulate him with and he needs to banish it.  Especially until things change dramatically his fundamental frame should be that wives who aren’t frigid have sex with their husbands, and a husband should feel no shame in taking his own wife.  Stop the rest of the script, and get back to basics.  Ironically, this change in mind frame is more likely to bring her to orgasm than the modern “she comes first” script.  Women don’t fantasize about a careful attentive lover.  They fantasize about being bent over the nearest piece of furniture and screwed silly.

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142 Responses to Slow your roll

  1. Pingback: Slow your roll | Manosphere.com

  2. crowhill says:

    This is an incredibly depressing post. The world has truly gone mad. He should forbid her from going out with other men.

  3. Anonymous Reader says:

    Sad to say, there is a very high probability that she’s had one or more sexual affairs with other men.
    One path forward may involve documenting that fact such that church leadership can see it clearly.

    Agree that she may well blow up the marriage, but if she’s cheated with one or more men she’s already checked out of marriage anyway and it is only a matter of time before lawyers are called in.

  4. Barb says:

    Sorry, Dalrock, but your advice is not totally correct with respect to women’s sexuality. This is where you and others here err so often, I must say, and part of that is your lack of understanding of women, despite your beliefs and declarations to the contrary.

    If she cannot orgasm and says, explicitly (which is rare for a woman right there) that she needs gentler love-making, she is most likely telling the truth and not trying to put her husband down or what-have-you.

    Women may fantasize about “being bent and screwed silly,” but those are just fantasies; more often than not, being bent and screwed silly will not lead to her orgasm, but to a sore body and then some. And if she continues to have unorgasmic sex, she will be even more reluctant to engage in it.

    Women fantasize about lots of different things, BTW, gentle and attentive lovers being one of them. The ideal love-making combines both: attentiveness to her needs, which increases her arousal, and the man’s assertiveness and confidence (and sometimes a bit of selfishness, too). But it cannot be just “bent over” at his will 100% of the time, because that does not lead to orgasm for most women, contrary to what romance books and movies may suggest.

    If necessary, Prov Erbs and Wife may need to talk to a sex therapist, once or twice, as much as they do to their pastor.

  5. For all I’ve written about the effectiveness of, and relational fundamentals of, direct dread, I’m more convinced that the power of passive, or “soft dread” is far more useful to most men:

    http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/13/soft-dread/

    Soft dread is unsolicited dread, but the art is in looking for instance where a man can apply the social proof and DHV that soft dread represents.

    You see, what I experienced that morning was a sort of de fact association of social proof. Granted, I’m not taking anything away from the love and solidity upon which my marriage and our relationship is founded on, but was I just the right guy in the right place for this realization to come to awareness? What I had just participated in was a form of soft dread. A dread that needs no emphasis or prompting from a Man, simply the occasion for it to come to the surface to be actualized.

    When a Man’s status is long established it’s easy to take his qualities for granted by women. It takes another woman’s lack to bring that status into focus for her. In the same vein that women will pre-approve or pre-qualify you for another woman’s intimacy, likewise the personal state of other women will serve as a benchmark of social proof for a Man’s wife or LTR. I realize this has the potential to cut the other way for women who are more well off than others, but the dynamic is real. I’ve written in the past that women fundamentally lack the capacity to appreciate the sacrifices Men must make to facilitate their feminine reality, but if they ever come close to this appreciation it’s only at the prompting of women outside the relationship who can recognize it in the Men committed to other women.

  6. jf12 says:

    I’ve finally figured out what I really don’t like about the advice from relationship counselors and sexual psychologists when they say “Would you rather be right, or would you rather have love?”

    Especially in the case of a man complaining that he’s right that his wife isn’t showing him love, I had though that my hangup about it was based on the definite cart-before-horse fallacy “If you would be willing to be wrong, then you would have love.” But I was wrong. The real problem is that these professionals, trained first and foremost in abuse recognition, are *advocating* for wrong love, but only when it is the man who is being abused/neglected/etc. Think about it.

    Now, if this comment doesn’t bring el out of lurking, I don’t know what would. I’ve been doing my best. I’m not even in a mood.

  7. If it’s legit and the guy’s not trolling, he’s going to be single soon.

    Barring divine intervention.

  8. okrahead says:

    From someone whose been in a similar position… if this man is telling the truth about his wife’s behavior (I went to his site and read some of it) then she is already having sex with other men, plural. He needs to quit talking to her about it and pretend everything is okay. In the meantime he needs to get a private investigator on her to prove the affair(s) and dig up as much extra dirt as possible. He also needs to find out who the top three or four divorce lawyers in his town are and pay each of them a retainer, and find out what his legal standing vis a vis custody of his children is in the jurisdiction where he resides. Next he needs to liquidate as many assets as possible, and rather than buying a new house get a lease. If he is telling the truth, his wife is staying out all hours of the night with groups of young men, has already accused him of abuse, has alleged she fears he will “rape” her, and has threatened him with divorce. She has already checked out of the marriage, he needs to IMMEDIATELY go to defcon 1 to protect his children if nothing else, and then go nuclear on the biotch, especially once he has proof of adultery in hand. In the meantime, no dread game…. Nothing but Mr. Nice Guy Beta until he’s ready to roll out the artillery.
    As far as going to his pastor, good luck with that. When I discovered my now ex-wife was carrying on an online affair with a old flame from college and ordered her to break it off, our preacher actually took her side, told me it was no big deal, and I should just “get over it.” At the time my ex DID NOT EVEN DENY she was carrying on an online “relationship” with the other man, she just defended it by saying it was all online and nothing else…. and the preacher accepted this as perfectly okay.
    Once she’s screwing around, which this guy’s wife obviously is, you are past the point of no return. If he doesn’t take action immediately he will lose his children forever. It’s time to quit pretending otherwise and fight for them.

  9. Sharrukin says:

    I’ve seen pictures online on Facebook, and it’s almost always – at least on 5 different occasions – her and 5-7 men.

    It’s possible that she isn’t cheating, though she probably is, or is considering it. However she is getting a charge by being with those men even if she is pretending to herself that it is a ‘motherly’ interest.

    It isn’t.

    I then held her hand again. This time she didn’t resist.

    This is a bad sign, not the good sign that you seem to take it for.

    She isn’t reaching for your hand.

    Not only did I touch her more in a few hours than I did in 5 months, but she actually waved to me.

    I suspect your marriage is over.

    She just hasn’t gotten around to informing you of that.

    That will probably come after she gets the nice new house.

  10. Tilikum says:

    go buy a motorcycle, learn to ride it, and go out alone…..happily. no matter what, keep taking two and three hour rides alone firmly and happily until she invites herself. take her once, then only every third time she asks.

    like butter.

    i call it twowheelnonconfrontationalseamlessdreadgame

  11. deti says:

    Dalrock:

    Great, great post. Good suggestions. I didn’t think about trying to get the church involved, and using the church to apply considerable pressure. Good idea.

    here are my suggestions:

    1. Prov Erbs continues the gym workouts and maintains the rest of his life including his good earning power.

    2. He informs Wife there will be changes. He immediately leaves the apartment and moves back into the house, where he will reside permanently. He will sleep in the marital bed. He will express his strong preference that she do so as well; however, she may sleep wherever she wishes. He will take control of all finances and bill paying. When they move to the new house, he will not get an apartment. As before the move, he will reside in the marital house and sleep in the marital bed. These are nonnegotiable. If she disagrees, she may leave the residence – alone; and she will expect to be served shortly with papers.

    3. He tells Wife she will need to make some changes too. She will immediately begin conducting herself as his wife and as mother to their children. She deletes her Facebook accounts and social media. She and CrossFit are done. She and Crossfit friends are done too. At the very, very least, she will not stay out late at night. There will be no Crossfit goodbye parties. Starting immediately, the bulk of her time will be spent at her employment doing her work; and at their house caring for his home and children. At a later date, after the move, he might – MIGHT—allow her to join another gym. These are also nonnegotiable.

    4. At an appropriate time, he must get to the bottom of whether she has cheated. There is a lot of circumstantial evidence suggesting that she has; and he needs to find out if there’s anything further. This is speculation based on his writings and descriptions of Wife’s conduct. The most recent post suggests she might be going through a “breakup” of an affair — the sudden statements that she hasn’t been to the gym in four months; the sudden closeness and receptiveness to physical affection, etc. The lying about going to the gym is also troubling. He needs to get to the bottom of all this.

    5. He undertakes an immediate audit of the finances. He accounts for every dime spent, every check written, every credit card purchase. He reviews the cell phone bills with a fine toothed comb. He reviews the text messages and the emails. He needs to call out anything suspicious.

    Ultimately, I agree with the majority here that it’s very very likely she has already had a sexual affair. If that’s the case, I believe the marriage is already over and lawyers are in his future.

  12. okrahead says:

    Next thoughts…. Having retained counsel and taken proper steps to prove an affair, the husband in this scenario should find out from his attorney what the courts in his jurisdiction are like for fathers, and whether it’s feasible to get into a better jurisdiction. Laws vary from state to state on custody, child support, and alimony, and court applications of those laws vary from county to county in many cases. Sometimes renting an apartment one county over can make all the difference in how a this situation plays out.
    I know this first hand, as I was fortunate enough to be in a county where the court is very amenable to father’s rights. Had I lived only 1/2 mile further north it would have been an entirely different story. My attorney actually told me he advises male clients to move into the county where I reside if divorce is imminent, even if it is only renting an apartment. A good attorney will be able to tell this man what he can do along those lines.

  13. I’ve never been an adulterer, thank God, or walked close in any practical sense to that precipice; but even I, in my early twenties, often adopted, almost automatically, a sort of Cheshire Cat “what do we have here?” probing insolent flirtatious attitude around youngish married female professors and other married female acquaintance.

    Even if these boys were all salt-of-the-earth types, they’re conducting strategic emotional reconnaissance around the perimeters of her fidelity.

    And since it’s obvious she has little real emotional fidelity to start with, and since these strapping youths are doubtless not all salt of the earth types either . . . .

    At the absolute least, she mocks and reviles her weak, useless hubby to them, and at the absolute least they openly scorn the absent hubby and father to the wife and mother’s face, to everyone’s mutual merriment. Soup and salad cuckoldry, hours and hours of it.

    And that’s disgusting.

  14. okrahead says:

    Deti,
    I respect your opinion, but I must strongly disagree… It is almost certain she has already cheated, and she has already threatened him with state/administrative violence when she said “rape” and “assault”. This is billions of light years past the point where he can simply move back in and get in bed with her. Were he to do so he is opening himself up to CRIMINAL prosecution, never mind divorce court. She has already crossed the Rubicon, it’s time to lawyer up, get evidence, and prepare for battle.

  15. deti says:

    Barb:

    Regarding rough sex, you’re wrong again. If the woman is attracted, she will want pretty much whatever kind of sex the man is willing to give her.

    You’ll have to take my word on this, and other men can weigh in too, but my strong impression from experience and otherwise is that if your woman is into you, she will very much enjoy vigorous sex, and, well, really get off on it.

    Now if she isn’t attracted, then she will want to control the sex as much as possible and will want the sex to be brief with a minimum of foreplay. She will want only “vanilla sex” — missionary only, no more than 5 to 10 minutes, and will leap up immediately afterward to expel the semen.

  16. deti says:

    Okra:

    I respect yours as well. That said, Prov doesn’t know his wife is cheating. She probably has, but he doesn’t KNOW that. When he does, then he can go nuclear. Until then he needs to get close enough to her to either (1) salvage the marriage if that can be done; or (2) gather the evidence needed to prove adultery.

  17. Anonymous Reader says:

    Barb
    Sorry, Dalrock, but your advice is not totally correct with respect to women’s sexuality. This is where you and others here err so often, I must say, and part of that is your lack of understanding of women, despite your beliefs and declarations to the contrary.

    Barb, to be blunt: How many women have you had sex with?

  18. Dalrock says:

    @okrahead

    It is almost certain she has already cheated, and she has already threatened him with state/administrative violence when she said “rape” and “assault”. This is billions of light years past the point where he can simply move back in and get in bed with her. Were he to do so he is opening himself up to CRIMINAL prosecution, never mind divorce court.

    I’m fairly certain you have read more of his site than I have. Either way this is a distinct possibility and any man in that situation would need to seriously consider the risk you raise. He has no moral obligation to be foolish.

  19. sunshinemary says:

    @ Dalrock
    Outstanding post. Truly one of your best.

    @Okrahead
    I understand your point, but couldn’t he both prepare for war while still working for peace? Couldn’t he try to salvage the marriage by implementing some of the suggestions Dalrock made while simultaneously making some financial and legal preparations just in case?

    @Barb
    You remind me of a commenter from several years ago who went by the handle Doomed Harlot.

  20. This is so good I can only think of one thing to say:

    This isn’t going to be easy, and as I already said I think there is unfortunately a good chance his wife will blow up the family.

    The one thing he needs to keep in mind, even if he has to write it on his forehead so he sees it in the mirror every morning: if he does nothing, or if he tries to placate her, she WILL blow up the marriage. That’s guaranteed. And the longer he dithers, the more chance she’ll have to arrange it so he looks like the bad guy.

    So he has nothing to lose by adopting a solid, biblical frame and standing up for himself. The rest is tactics, but that’s where he has to start, by eliminating the fear that taking action will make things worse. No strong action he can take at this point can make things worse than a wife who hangs out with an admiring stable of young studs and doesn’t want an orgasm from her husband (that last bit is a red flag the size of a cruise ship).

  21. Dalrock says:

    The more I think about it the more I think Gin Martini is probably right. The funny thing is troll or not by pretty much capturing every wayward wife and frustrated husband stereotype it makes it easy to address a whole slew of common issues all at once without having to stop and explain each pattern. So troll or not, it is like taking batting practice.

  22. @Dalrock

    You’ve done a great service in your advice here. Regardless of whether the impetus was genuine or a troll, this is another stone in the wall being built to withstand the assault on Biblical marriage, and it’s a strong stone.

    I’ve been in conversation and fellowship with some of the seminarians of my extremely conservative denomination. Divorce is a no-go for them, but they seem to adopt the Walshian position of female imperative wherein it’s always ultimately the man’s fault. They have a tough time processing Eve’s tendency to find problem’s in paradise. Your blog has been a boon in our discussions, giving them great pause to their typical beliefs. They’re coming around to the idea that marriage is a dance and both genders have a role to play. They’re starting to see mini-rebellions in our congregation and diagnose problems deeper than the, “husband works too many hours and doesn’t do enough chores,” or, “He is emotionally cold and distant and his wife is repulsed by it,” lines. They are learning to understand, sympathize, and pray efficaciously for men in struggling marriages. Some day they will be ready to counsel.

    I’m guessing @Barb is a concern troll. Women lie about orgasms at an appalling rate. Not orgasming is the new virgin. “I never came until I came with you!” is the new, “You’re the first!” In my sin-riddled past with women, the only time I had problems inducing pleasure were when I was fighting to keep her with me. The common theme was that when I started relationships, I could look at her from across the room and put her in the mood. I averaged 2 to 1. My point is not to be vulgar here but to note that as I got more invested in the relationships and lost the “cowboy” attitude I went in with, attempting to emulate the “settled-down-nice-guy,” the worse things went and sometimes I wasn’t able to please. This dysfunction never, ever in my entire experience of life, came from being a calm, grinning master of the bedroom. It came from, “does this work for you, honey?”

  23. Dalrock says:

    Also, I should note that the title of the post is a nod to a theme by Cane Caldo. Cane has been reminding us to slow our roll for several years now, and I wanted to acknowledge that.

  24. Dalrock says:

    Thank you Deti, SSM, Cail and The Karamazov Idea.

    I’ve been in conversation and fellowship with some of the seminarians of my extremely conservative denomination. Divorce is a no-go for them, but they seem to adopt the Walshian position of female imperative wherein it’s always ultimately the man’s fault. They have a tough time processing Eve’s tendency to find problem’s in paradise. Your blog has been a boon in our discussions, giving them great pause to their typical beliefs. They’re coming around to the idea that marriage is a dance and both genders have a role to play. They’re starting to see mini-rebellions in our congregation and diagnose problems deeper than the, “husband works too many hours and doesn’t do enough chores,” or, “He is emotionally cold and distant and his wife is repulsed by it,” lines. They are learning to understand, sympathize, and pray efficaciously for men in struggling marriages. Some day they will be ready to counsel.

    Outstanding. Made my day.

  25. okrahead says:

    Well,
    Dalrock, Deti, and SSM all at least partially disagree with me… which means I am probably wrong. Nevertheless, full speed ahead with this little though experiment. This is from the “about me” portion of the blog in question, please excuse the length of the quote:

    “A few months ago, we got into the largest fight of our marriage over her issue of going out. I totally lost my cool and she said my face was scary. She said she felt threatened by being in the same room as me, and asked me not to go near here. I said I never threatened her, but she insisted that I assaulted her with my angry words. As she was changing her clothes to go out, I was trying to speak with her to see why she was so mad. She asked me to get out since she was changing. I didn’t leave, so she angrily asked if I was going to rape her. She screamed and said, would you like it if I committed suicide because of you? Then, she said something neither of us have ever said: “let’s just get a divorce.” I had nothing to say, and told her I would move out. She said don’t move out, just stay out of her way and in the guest room so I complied. In 15+ years I had never heard the words “rape me,” “suicide,” and “divorce.” In one day, I heard all three. ”

    As both Marc MacYoung and Rory Miller ably point out, violence happens between people, in certain places, in certain contexts, and, most importantly it COMES WITH INSTRUCTIONS.
    The wife in this case was confronted with her (probable) affair. Her response was to accuse her husband of assaulting her and wanting to rape her, and threatening him with divorce.
    This is a robbery in process. She has checked out of the marriage, as evidenced by her activities with other men. Rather than simply leaving, however, she wants to get her cash and prizes. So, as any good robber will do, she threatens violence to her intended victim; in this case the type of violence is what we call “administrative” violence, wherein a wayward wife uses the police as de facto white knights to bring her soon to be ex husband into line. This is no longer a reconcilable situation. The robbery is already in progress, the threat of violence has been made, and instructions are being given to the victim…. Get out. Leave. Give me the cash and prizes and the children OR YOU WILL GET HURT. These instructions are loud and clear, and reading through them I have to say that if this blog is really someone “winding us up” he’s done a wonderful job of simulating a very real situation.
    If I am correct, and he is dealing with a woman who is 1) committing adultery, most likely with multiple men, 2) has already threatened violence (don’t forget the mention of suicide as well) and has 3) already taken control of the residence and the children, then this man is in the middle of an assault. There can be no reconciliation while the assault is ongoing. He has to break the freeze and fight back now if he has ANY hope of survival, or if his children are to have ANY hope of having their father in their lives. He’s already behind the curve in the OODA loop, he has to take control now by taking the actions I outlined earlier. There is no honor in allowing an adulteress to walk away with your children.

  26. MarcusD says:

    One of my new favorite tweets:

  27. I understand your point, but couldn’t he both prepare for war while still working for peace? Couldn’t he try to salvage the marriage by implementing some of the suggestions Dalrock made while simultaneously making some financial and legal preparations just in case?

    Not really, because if he follows Dalrock’s suggestions, it’ll alert her that the jig is up. He really needs to find out if she’s cheated (based on what’s been reported here, I’d say there’s a better chance that she’s cheated with more than one at a time than that she hasn’t cheated at all, and that’s not counting the obvious emotional affair she’s carrying on with these guys), decide whether he’s going to try to save the marriage or get out with as little damage to himself and the kids as possible (as Dalrock said, the details of that depend on his faith), and then move ahead.

    If he decides to exit, he needs to follow Okrahead’s advice and continue to play at “understanding” with her, so he doesn’t tip his hand before he can get things in order. If he decides to try to fix it, then he follows Dalrock’s advice and takes a strong stand as the head of the family. He can’t really do both, no.

  28. Alan K says:

    Dalrock, I am surprised that you advise involving the local church body—not because it’s wrong, but because it is likely to backfire. I agree 100% that church governance in several forms should help him in his effort to salvage the marriage. Unfortunately, the opposite usually occurs: the pastors/priests/elders will run from this hot potato and the supposedly faithful older sisters will rebuild the mound and start yelling, “you go girl” before the facts ever surface.

    The marriage will blow up with legal proceedings before he gets any traction.

    He is on an island and needs to understand how to handle his wife. I thought that this was your basic premise for practicing Christian Game: Doing what is most effective in curtailing sinful behavior within marriage. Rationally explaining that she is in sin will explode—instantly.

  29. @Alan K

    Normally, I’d be likely to agree. Churches tend to be democratic. People vote with their feet leaving the most opinionated members with the switch. My denomination is relatively conservative. My church has been brought to heel after our priest retired by a very devout Canon brought us to heel and our current priest has proven courageous, persistent, and tenacious in his message.

    The matrons of my church can and would set one of the young wives straight in under a paragraph. These are the wives of lawyers, surgeons, CFOs and more and their husbands have been loyal and faithful partners, the wives guiding voices lent in nothing but love, fealty and support. I would trust any of them to advise a woman in distress and trust their judgment to be sound, helpful, and charitable. Whether or not the advice is followed remains the mortal decision of the bride. All rebellion must be judged , confronted, and abolished by choice.

    Why can’t all churches be like this? My church father accepts no blatant revisions of Christ’s teachings in his midst. Why not yours? To forsake your husband is to forsake the church. Consider divorce an excommunication. My parish does. To live in the Gospel is constant war, but it is a good war.

  30. okrahead says:

    I think I should explain my earlier statements a bit further. On the blog in question the writer states he earns approximately 120k a year. This would indicate that he has the means to hire both a private investigator and pay retainers to at least two or three top attorneys in his city. If everything he has stated on the blog is true I expect that the PI will have little trouble proving infidelity. His wife has already threatened divorce, he needs to already have someone in his corner ready to go when she has him served with papers. Alternatively, if his wife has not yet retained an attorney, and attempts to hire one, discovering that the best options in town cannot represent her because her husband already has them on retainer will raise dread to a level previously thought impossible.

  31. okrahead says:

    And I do believe Matthew 19 is explicitly clear that he should only file for divorce on grounds of “fornication” which in this case would be adultery.

  32. greyghost says:

    This guy is done. All he should do is try and keep his children The rest (her) and all else is worthless and always has been. (She is a helper) He first needs to get his mind right for the reality at hand.http://shtfschool.com/security/true-nature-of-survival/ If he chooses to pray he should pray one of her boyfriends kills her in a fit of rage and jealousy when he finds out one of his home boys is hitting it too. Then he should handle his business. http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/04/24/how-to-win-at-divorce/ The Ironic thing is once he gets his mind right she may just decide to stick around if not he is rid of his worthless but very expensive burden.

  33. Alan K says:

    Consider divorce an excommunication.

    Ah, here we come to the crux of it: The willingness to do something unpleasant for the sake of faithfulness and order. This is why it is so seldom practiced. You answered your own (presumably rhetorical) question. I would also pursue this same path, as a last resort of course, after exhausting all the personal angles. It is scriptural to “bring it to the elders and then the church” after failing to resolve it privately or with two or three witnesses involved.

    Thanks for the response, TKI. Any other takers?

  34. Mark says:

    @Dalrock

    Great Post!

    “”Women don’t fantasize about a careful attentive lover. They fantasize about being bent over the nearest piece of furniture and screwed silly.””

    Yup!

  35. greyghost says:

    This made my dick hard.

    I’ve been in conversation and fellowship with some of the seminarians of my extremely conservative denomination. Divorce is a no-go for them, but they seem to adopt the Walshian position of female imperative wherein it’s always ultimately the man’s fault. They have a tough time processing Eve’s tendency to find problem’s in paradise. Your blog has been a boon in our discussions, giving them great pause to their typical beliefs. They’re coming around to the idea that marriage is a dance and both genders have a role to play. They’re starting to see mini-rebellions in our congregation and diagnose problems deeper than the, “husband works too many hours and doesn’t do enough chores,” or, “He is emotionally cold and distant and his wife is repulsed by it,” lines. They are learning to understand, sympathize, and pray efficaciously for men in struggling marriages. Some day they will be ready to counsel.

    when the church has game this war is won it is just a matter of doing the job. Red pill Christians are so damn masculine hard a woman will find herself tingling for a Christian man with selfish interest.

  36. Dear Dalrock,

    I believe that I, da GBFM, may be able to help your mansel in distress.

    Heartiste has a great post on what he should do:

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2014/07/24/the-de-escalation-ladder/

    “How should a man respond when his woman has begun sexually withdrawing from him? This post will examine the issue and offer a method called the “De-escalation Ladder” that reforms women’s bad behavior and robs them of the ability to use sex as a weapon.”

    I know that many here look down on the Great Heartiste for never teaching that Jesus came to abolish the Law of Moses and Genesis like all the frankfartian flockzzlerz here, but still, da HEartiste makes lostas great points!

  37. feeriker says:

    Alan K says:July 25, 2014 at 9:52 pm

    +100

    Sadly, most churches are not like TKI’s, where not only would the husband receive prayerful support from the body, but his adulterous wife discipline and/or sanction. Most churches will simply add another burden of shame and condemnation (“it’s what you deserve for not being a godly husband!”) to an already intolerable situation.

    One of the most tragic things to befall the Christian husband who is victimized by an adulterous wife is the realization that he is more often than not, other than for the love and mercy of God Himself, absolutely and completely alone in his struggle.

  38. feeriker says:

    [W]hen the church has game this war is won it is just a matter of doing the job. Red pill Christians are so damn masculine hard a woman will find herself tingling for a Christian man with selfish interest.

    Let’s hope so. Frankly, I think that any church that becomes populated in the main by red-pill men will become so only as the result of a mass series of Joseph of Jackson-type moves.

  39. Barb says:

    deti says:
    “Regarding rough sex, you’re wrong again. If the woman is attracted, she will want pretty much whatever kind of sex the man is willing to give her.”

    Regarding what I said, you are wrong again, deti. I never said anything against vigorous sex. How does that happen that I type one thing and you read something completely different?

    But never mind that. To the point: there is nothing wrong with vigorous sex. It is great. But bending her over when she’s totally not ready, not so much. There is a difference, and a substantial one too.

    If you cultivate sexual interest / desire more or less continuously (random kisses, touches, grabs, etc. throughout the day), she is going to be ready for, well, anything much more often. This responsibility, to cultivate sexual interest, is on both spouses, BTW; although given the typical disparity in sex drives between men and women, it tends to fall more heavily on men’s shoulders. (With greater testosterone comes greater responsibility ‘n all.)

    In your other comment, on the previous thread, you mention “stories of bar bathroom BJs and same night lays for men they just met a couple of hours before., etc.” Yes, that happens, often enough from what I hear. Keep in mind, though, that bar bathroom BJs do not result in her orgasm, and neither most hook-up sex. And all of it is different from sex in marriage, where the sexual relationship is far more complex by the sheer virtue of long-term cohabitation, building a family, and other tasks that differentiate it, generally positively, from casual hook-ups.

    “Now if she isn’t attracted, then she will want to control the sex as much as possible and will want the sex to be brief with a minimum of foreplay. She will want only “vanilla sex” — missionary only, no more than 5 to 10 minutes, and will leap up immediately afterward to expel the semen.”

    This is where I’d agree with you. Which brings up the importance, for men (and women) of not marrying someone who is not sexually attracted to them or whom they are not attracted to. It spells nothing but disaster (and it seems to be the case of the spreadsheet dude’s marriage — his wife is clearly not into him, and maybe never really was).

  40. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    I am honored!

    I just read the guy’s blog. He’s in a world of shit, and I simply do not understand him. Where is his jealousy?

    I can’t think of any advice that would be safe to give in a public format like this.

  41. Cane Caldo says:

    Speaking of things that are unsafe: That Barb is poisoned.

  42. lzozozzooz

    soundsz like da reader needz to learn of da “Once Cockasz rules!”

    lzlzozoozzozoozozozozo

  43. Spike says:

    He should take he kids out for dinner when she comes home and the place is empty. She will go ballistic, but he can nonchalantly say “Out with the family…”

  44. Robin Munn says:

    @Barb –

    This responsibility, to cultivate sexual interest, is on both spouses, BTW; although given the typical disparity in sex drives between men and women, it tends to fall more heavily on men’s shoulders. (With greater testosterone comes greater responsibility ‘n all.)

    Question for you: does a wife have any responsibility to cultivate her own sexual interest in her husband while he’s away, say at his 9-to-5 job?

  45. Robin Munn says:

    My question is assuming the same setup you’re assuming, where the husband has higher natural levels of sexual desire than his wife, and her desire is more responsive rather than spontaneous. This isn’t the case for all couples, but it’s the case for most.

  46. ballista74 says:

    In reading this guy’s blog, I just don’t get it. If you were to compare it to a fight, she’s got him on the ground and is kicking the @@@@ out of him. Yet, I don’t see a reaction commensurate to that, not even any jealousy over her “friends” who obviously she has taken a “ride” with (probably the full carousel).

    But then again I see it repeatedly anyway reading this kind of stuff. The blue pill is out there.

  47. There are at least a few things that a man in this situation could do that would help him either way.

    Most simply, he should definitely work on his physical health and physique. This is good for his own physical health. It will also raise testosterone levels, helping him to feel more confident. Further, multiple studies have shown that others who are not even remotely sexually interested in a person tend to have better reactions to attractive people in general and show them more deference. Physical health and stability also aid a person in working through current emotional issues, and weathering future ones.

    He should also definitely read his bible, and come to a better understanding of God’s word. In particular, he should work at removing the plank from his own eye, and making sure that any new understandings he is developing are in line with the scripture, including his understanding of relationships, and what God’s design for them is. Meditate on that which is holy, and the wisdom of God, and the elders of the past.

    Also, as Dalrock has said previously, he should work to forgive his wife, even if it is in small, incremental stages, within his own heart, and seek to construct his own mental frame on a foundation of love. At the very least he should be able to take actions out of love for his children.

    Also, he may consider scaling back his hours at work, and ensuring he has control over his own finances. Doing so has multiple advantages. First of all, if he does so now, he can spend that time specifically on his children, the self improvement activities discussed above, and possibly volunteering.

    Helping others is often a very potent way to help yourself feel better about a really bad situation. Further, it’s strategic. If he reduces his workload now, then if things go south later, his imputed income will be lower, and it will be easier to ensure that he can afford to live near his children even if he has to take a lower paying job to do so. Further, if he establishes a pattern of loving and charitable behavior not only toward his children, but in the community, it will be harder to paint him as an abusive individual, because people will know him by his fruits.

    And reducing his time at work, and focusing on self improvement may allow him to salvage the situation with his wife if it still is salvageable.

    Finally, I think that either way, he should work on his ability to maintain frame, and lead a discussion. He might consider joining a group dedicated to public speaking like Toastmasters, or joining a debate group for some formal training if he needs it.

    Also, finding and joining together with a group of male Christian friends that care about him, and his outcomes with his family, and are not going to reinforce what Dalrock calls the cross-dressing model could help to not only relieve stress, but to reinforce positive behaviors and outlooks, and help him with tactics and strategy. Ideally, he’d also get used to keeping frame and amused confidence when around them, which would make it easier to display in other areas. There is also the possibility for social-proofing.

  48. red says:

    Sounds more like he needs to bend his wife over his knee and discipline her. Part of being the leader is sometimes pulling out the whip and dishing out justice.

  49. Prov Erbs says:

    First of all, thank you Dalrock and many many others for your comments. This was an excellent post and I’ve received as much from the critical comments as I have the encouraging ones. No troll here. Just a betamaxed guy who has gotten so weak over the last year and a half that I’ve become totally blind. I’ve been so depressed sometimes at night that I end up sleeping only a few hours a night. Reading my blog, some of it doesn’t make much sense to me either I feel like I’m reading another guy’s words. I can’t believe some days that I’m actually in this state. The fact that many people think I am not real attests to this, that I’ve come so far that people don’t believe that my words are true. Dang, that really is a bitter pill.

    A week ago, after combing through this blog, Rollo’s, and Roissy’s a sort of (small) light went on. I knew in theory what I had to do, but had no clue or no power to do it. An update:

    1. We did move into a new home in a new state. She picked the house. I’ve taken control of the finances and moved into the bedroom and am sleeping on my own bed. She’s sleeping in the guest room. She has put her stuff in the bedroom, but has put a suitcase in her bed. She has been saying goodnight to me every night, which is usually the only thing we say to one another.

    2. I come home to see the kids, but since we’ve been in this house I’ve disappeared for long stretches after work. I spar a lot at my gym, have come home with bruises on my face, and she has been asking me what happened. I’ve said nothing. We had to pick a new church since our move to another state, and I picked the church and signed us up for a community group. She has said nothing but has been planning on going.

    3. Following Roissy’s De-escalation post, I have now stopped trying to touch her/do anything/or even look at her. I have smiled a lot around the kids, and they’ve laughed so much this week. My younger one has been by my side non-stop, saying that Daddy should always be home to play. I’ve played a lot of board games, gone to restaurants, and done things with the kids. I would just pick up and take them without asking her or telling her.

    4. Follow Rollo’s post on soft dread, I’ve been wondering how to apply this as a Christian. I don’t have any good answers apart from just acting like I’m a single father. I respond robotically when asked something, and never bring anything up. I’ve been acting like a divorced man, but still legally married.

    5. I did get the help of an investigator, and as far as I can tell there has been no adultery. I’ve looked through her computer, she doesn’t know that I know her password, and have scanned the entire hard drive/files and have seen no evidence of adultery. There are pictures of her with these cross fit gym men, but also with other women, lots of group pictures. The pictures on Facebook look like they were uploaded by the men of the group, but on her own computer there seems to be at least 30% females together with the men everyone smiling.

    6. I’ve had several random women come talk to me on the streets. I’m friendly of course, but don’t let it get beyond that. I would never divorce her without adultery, but it did feel good that other women are now expressing interest in me. Even with all this, I’ve received a promotion at work which I turned down. It would have required even more travel and perhaps a move out of country, and I don’t want to do that to my kids even if I’d be making over $200k/year.

    7. I have a sibling who is a lawyer, and I was advised to say as little as possible and to keep records of what was said to me/strange actions. I have been doing this, but she hasn’t been saying very much either.

    8. Dalrock’s advice has been spot on, my focus has been almost 100% on sex. It has clouded my vision. I have been going to the early morning men’s bible studies at church, and have prioritized taking the kids to church events/mid week services/volunteering at VBS and the like. I’ve not asked her permission or even discussed this with her. I have simply told her, this is what we’re going to do.

    9. I had to buy a car, so I bought a new car without consulting her. Nothing too expensive, but I bought it cash. Surprisingly, she said it’s nice and did not complain/ask for an upgrade of her 10 year old vehicle. This was a surprise.

    10. The single biggest change. Since we have moved to this new state/city, in the 10 days we have been here she has not gone to a CrossFit gym not once. She complained that she was gaining weight, but I’ve seen no Facebook activity (unless she’s hiding it from me, but so far she hasn’t hid anything) and I’ve been gone so she has been with the kids 24/7. She even asked me if it was OK for her to go exercise sometime. I did not respond to her. It has been 3 days since and she still has not gone to a cross fit gym or any gym in the last 10 days.

    11. She has agreed to go to marital counseling with a counselor from this new church we have been attending. I have not brought up her being mentored by another woman, but she is willing to go to counseling and get help. Another pastor friend and his wife are visiting us in a few days, and she also agreed to meet with them. (Surprising again.)

    12. What I still don’t get is for the first 13 yrs or so of our marriage, she was very into me. I saw it in her face, the way we had sex, and just in everything else. Something happened after that, she got into CrossFit, I worked more, and then 1.5 years later I find myself here. Of course there may have been things that have happened way before that led to this, but things turned sour so quickly in such a short period of time. Dang, I really don’t know what hit me.

    13. Our church has a read through the bible in a year program, or our previous church. Turns out during this entire CrossFit time, she signed up for the program and has been reading her bible daily! This was a surprise too.

    At the advice of my pastor, who is not a typical blue pill femipastor, I’ve decided to just wait. I have legal counsel. I’ve done my due diligence in getting an investigator’s help. I’ve looked everywhere, at least in the house, and have seen no evidence of adultery. This doesn’t mean she hasn’t had sex, but even with a professional’s help there has been zero evidence that she has actually had sex with another man.

    Gin Martini asked who takes care of the kids, and it has been her. About 4 months ago when she went out 5x/week, I would be home in the evenings with the kids so she went out. I’ve since stopped coming home at night, got my own apt, and so she hasn’t gone out at night in 4+ months. She has been home every night for the last 4 months. Her Facebook pictures were all from during the daytime, (according to the investigator the restaurant meals were all after a cross fit morning session), and the most recent pictures I’ve seen on Facebook she has gone out with a group of women as well. She has done the goodbye tour so to speak, but she knows I have access to those pictures and again the investigator found that she was not alone with any one man. It has always been a group of 5-6 men, or 10 people total including some women that go out. In the last 4 months, she has gone out for lunch about 6 times – 4 times with about 5-6 men after a gym workout, and the other times with men/women or just women.

    She has not said anything negative to me in front of our kids (surprisingly). In fact, my older child told me that Mommy said that they have the best Daddy in the world. (Another surprise.) She wrote me a letter a month ago begging me to come home for the sake of our kids. I came home every morning, but not at night. I didn’t want her going out at night, at least until I could figure out if she was cheating or not. The kids have been drawing lots of pictures of our entire family with smiles on their faces. So far, she has told them that Mommy and Daddy are sleeping separately b/c of Daddy’s snoring. Of course now that I’ve gotten more fit I’ve stopped snoring completely, but the kids don’t know that.

    So now I wait. I need to gather more strength, but I feel stronger today than I have in a long time. I haven’t done all that Dalrock, Deti, and others have advised me to do but I have been heading there bit by bit. I’ll post updates on my blog later if anyone cares to read, but thank you truly everyone.

    Reading Ephesians 1, has made it clear to me that Christ is the head of all. I believe in a sovereign God, and though my current situation is due to my own stupidity, pride, and weakness, I’m getting more and more hope that I will be OK as Dalrock advised to focus on my relationship with Christ.

    I will post an update on my blog later, but it’s way way past midnight here and I wanted to say thank you to everyone. Boy, I was really in the pits here since my story had, as Dalrock pointed out, every stereotype in it. I’m still in the pits, but I see a light up there and I’m slowly heading towards that light.

    Thank you everyone.

    Prov Erbs

  50. Prov Erbs says:

    Another random thing, any thoughts would be appreciated. A few days before our move, she asked me to come help pack some stuff. So I went there. It was hot and our AC was broken. She was wearing a loose tank top with no bra. Everytime she bent over to pack, I could see her bare breasts easily. Although she looks great with clothes on, she is a 40 year old mom of two kids. Her breasts have stretch marks and have some sag, her stomach also has some stretch marks and loose skin. Again, she looks really fit with clothes on but without clothes I know the truth. If it’s one thing I know about this woman, she is insecure about her stretch marks. (She was always into fitness/athletic, but after the kids her body has changed.) Why did she wear that loose tank top? Is she trying to tease me?

    Also, that day she was working so hard she was completely in sweat. She would also complain in years past that I spend too much money. The last 2 months I’ve been spending money like crazy, mostly b/c I ceased caring. ($50-100 dinners by myself, OK. Good wine, OK. New sports car in cash, OK. New clothes and sparring equipment, OK.) She has not said anything about the money. She is an incredibly frugal person. Even during her cross fit craziness, she had not bought any new clothes. She has never worn much makeup, but apart from her getting more fit I haven’t seen a change at all in her wardrobe, even in the Facebook pictures which are uploaded by the gym owner typically.

    This is a woman that has never worn a bikini ever, has never shown cleavage or worn a short skirt, and even now it’s hard to tell she even wears makeup at all. Her style has been exactly the same for the last 5 years, back when our marriage was good and our youngest wasn’t born yet. Even tonight. I played with the kids and she brought back dinner, even though she had no way of knowing I was going to be home since I’ve been going out every night. She was installing curtains the entire 2 hrs after dinner/cleaning up the house/doing dishes. That’s something I hadn’t done at all. Even during her crazy 6 month period, she did all the dishes/laundry/cooking, etc. She just baked birthday cakes for the younger guys (and two younger ladies) at her gym.

    This doesn’t show that she hasn’t had sex with them, but I wonder why she hasn’t bought new clothes or spent money? In fact, she has spent a LOT less than me. Another strange thing. I had about $5k left on my last student loan, and she paid it off. I didn’t ask her to do this, I thought the interest was low enough for us to keep it but she paid it off. I asked her why and she said “there’s no reason to pay that interest when we don’t have to.” We put about $1000k/month or a little more into our kids college fund, and she hasn’t stopped that at all during this crazy time.

    I don’t understand her, how can I not know a woman I’ve been with for 15+ years? Why has she changed so much in the last year? Darnit, I’m not sure Ill ever find out….

  51. LiveFearless says:

    @Prov Erbs

    Do what Victor Pride does. The video posted on his page today shows his morning routine.

  52. Barb says:

    Robin Munn says:
    “Question for you: does a wife have any responsibility to cultivate her own sexual interest in her husband while he’s away, say at his 9-to-5 job?”

    Of course. This is what I said:

    “This responsibility, to cultivate sexual interest, is on both spouses, BTW”

  53. The Brass Cat says:

    @Prov Erbs

    Hiring an private investigator was a good move. Also, I would heed okrahead’s advice (at July 25, 2014 at 7:23 pm). His advice is exactly what my dad should have done leading up to my parents’ divorce.

    Divorce is a knife in the heart of the children and my belief is, once you have children, your marriage should be focused on them. So I’m glad to read that you are maintaining your relationship with them and at least giving them the appearance of a stable marriage.

    Interesting that your wife has not been upgrading her wardrobe. When my mom was lasciviously and wantonly cheating on my dad (to punish him for her “unhappiness’) she bought all sorts of new dresses, bought a cowboy hat, and even started listening to country music for the first time in her life (because the other man was into it). There were many inexplicable changes in behavior, tastes, and clothing that signaled something bad was happening. That your wife hasn’t gone through some inexplicable changes is a good sign, although it is not proof positive that she’s been faithful.

    During that time my mom also started hanging out with a variety of male friends. Well, she called them friends, but I doubt that’s all they were.

    I cut her out of my life and haven’t spoken to her in over a decade. My dad never had the chance to repair the marriage before being hit with the frivorce. But it sounds like you do, so I wish you the best of luck.

  54. Alan K says:

    I see a light up there and I’m slowly heading towards that light.

    Prov Erbs, this is great to hear and I appreciate the effort required.

    IMO this is how a man fixes problems: Weakness creeps in when we’re not paying attention, but then we show up and fix it. You’re not just sitting idly by, moaning about being powerless. You feel the changes in your own temperament and so does your wife—guaranteed. Keep focusing on the necessities and learning.

    [H]ow can I not know a woman I’ve been with for 15+ years?

    I was here, myself, during a really bad time in our life. Now, I know things about my wife that blow my mind; I probably know more about her wiring than she does. When I discovered the primary causes for her bad behavior (insecurity and bad influences) I took control of her activities and cut off the bad advice from leaches and well-meaning fools.

    As long as I keep a firm grip on her, she is more settled and content—and more interested in me. Never grovel or seek her approval/validation. Apologize for any real mistakes, but maintain and assert your authority over her and the entire household at all times. You may end up with a more grateful and wiser wife who craves your strength above anyone else. Time will tell, but your attitude should be set in stone, regardless of the outcome; hold yourself in proper regard, throughout the process. You may already be seeing the positive results. Prayers for you and your family.

  55. Alan K says:

    BTW, Dalrock, I noticed that you employed several qualifiers about church involvement: Hopefully… If possible… Ideally… Apologies if I seemed overly critical of your advice, which is solid, from top to bottom. I wanted to put reasonable expectations front and center. Regards.

    [D: I didn't read it as overly critical, just you pointing out a risk you see. No apology required.]

  56. Dalrock says:

    @Prov Erbs

    11. She has agreed to go to marital counseling with a counselor from this new church we have been attending. I have not brought up her being mentored by another woman, but she is willing to go to counseling and get help. Another pastor friend and his wife are visiting us in a few days, and she also agreed to meet with them. (Surprising again.)

    Keep in mind that marriage/couples counseling is something very different than what I was advising in the post. There are churches where the counseling comes from a biblical frame and isn’t focused on modern “relationship” nonsense. But they are rare. I think this is why Alan K was so surprised I advised “getting the church involved”. I can’t speak to the situation at your own church, but almost always the wife will naturally have a massive advantage in any kind of marital counseling. It quickly devolves into a replay of “Fireproof” where any bad behavior on her part is proof that you aren’t loving her as Christ loves the Church. This isn’t from the Bible, it is from the Book of Oprah.

    What I am advising, and more importantly what Titus 2 describes, is something entirely different. The purpose isn’t to have another woman mediate between husband and wife. Team woman strongly kicks in there and you are outnumbered. Add the pastor or an elder and they will tend to want to protect the woman. Again, you are just further outnumbered. This is different than approaching an older respected woman at the church and asking her to counsel your wife on how to be a good wife and mother. Women love to counsel other women on how to dress, how to act, how to take care of their families, etc. This doesn’t evoke team woman, it establishes a status hierarchy between the woman doing the counseling and the counselee. In addition, there will be an unspoken, actually denied, judgment of your wife’s sexual morality and need to repent of what she is doing. As we have seen yet again just recently on this blog, this causes violent emotional outbursts from the woman who feels even remotely judged. This is why your wife will make the most emotional and believable excuses to avoid doing it. When she makes these excuses, unless you cover for her it will help others see her rebellion in a way they likely wouldn’t have been able to.

    The way I would approach the Titus 2 woman is find a respected older wife or widow who is frequently engaged at the church. Ask around for such a woman, you won’t have a problem quickly creating a short list. Then approach the one you select as your first choice, and explain that you are seeking a mentor for your wife and from her stellar reputation at the church you feel that she would be the best one to do so. This is not only true but immensely flattering; you have her full attention. From her extremely tasteful dress and demeanor (it will be there, I promise) you can tell that she is the right person to counsel your wife on proper behavior and decorum. More (true) flattery, status, and a promise of juicy details; you had her at hello. Have a copy of the verse I quoted printed out to give biblical context to what you are asking of her. More status, a role officially sanctioned by God and respected men. The only thing missing is a lab coat and a clipboard. Explain the problem of your wife’s behavior from the frame of a loving husband wanting to help his wife. You aren’t enlisting her to help you, you are seeking help for your wife. If applicable, if you want to you could also explain that you worry that the old behavior will return and the new neighbors will start to talk. You don’t want your children experiencing any more scandal. Don’t worry, the woman will know she is also helping this nice polite young (to her) man. But if you show any kind of weakness it could repulse her, so come from a frame of loving strength, not one of being hurt by your wife’s actions.

    Then just let it take its course. Chances are your wife will refuse, which will reinforce your case. If she does agree to be mentored, it doesn’t much matter what the mentor says. The status relationship and the fact that she needs mentoring pretty much says it all. No strong words or persuasion needed, she knows she needs to convincingly turn this around so she is no longer under this older woman’s direct counsel.

  57. Dalrock says:

    One more thing on Titus 2. Do not place yourself under this woman’s authority. Do not ask her to counsel you on how to be a good husband. This invokes the relationship counseling frame, and is not what Titus 2 describes at all. You are this woman’s sponsor, not her charge.

  58. Imagine how many more families
    would stay together

    and children would grow up

    with fathers
    if Dalrock/Boxer/et al.
    didn’t spend day after day
    preaching and teaching that
    Christ came to abolish the Law of Moses
    preaching and teaching that
    words have no intrinsic meaning
    and can mean anything
    at any time while seeking

    instalanches over Honor.

    preaching and teaching that

    the Great Books for Men
    are mere fairy tails
    sans meaning, nobility, and Honor
    preaching and teaching that
    men must learn game
    so as to serve da womenz butt and gina tingzlzlzozo
    instead of serving Moses, God, and Jesus
    and teaching their women to do the same
    preaching and teaching that
    MArcuse and the Frankfartians freudian frankfurters
    are greater than Christ and Homer
    preaching and teaching, like Cosmo Mag, that
    men must learn to serve women’s butt and ginz tziznzgzlzzolzozloz
    instead of restoring their homes, schools, and churches
    via the manly soul soul of Moses, Jesus, Homer, and Jefferson
    exalting the classical soul in contemporary institutions
    so that courts no longer destroyed families
    but instead served god instead of da dalrockian/boxerian gina tinzgzlzlzozo
    Imagine how many more families
    would stay together
    Imagine how many Fathers would see their children
    if Dalrock/Boxer/et al.
    didn’t spend day after day
    preaching and teaching that men must learn
    to treat women like dogs, rather than teaching
    men to rise up beyond their baser natures and desires
    and truly follow Christ and Moses and Odysseus and Achilles
    and live for exalted Honor
    rather than cutting down the faith of their fathers
    and deconstructing, attacking, belittling
    castigating and impugning
    the GReat Books for Men.
    lzozozollzolzozl

  59. jf12 says:

    re: “The only thing missing is a lab coat and a clipboard.”

    Is this a good look for men? It doesn’t seem to inspire respect from women.

  60. Solomon says:

    I don’t think I would show as much grace as what your OP suggests, Dalrock. From what I see, my prognosis is generally that the marriage being discussed is a dead deal. She is already checked out.

    I would check put on a wife like that completely. I’d shut off her money, as much as possible, I would stop talking with her, I would stop interacting. I would stop wanting her whatsoever. I would check so far out on that chick that she would look like a stage 5 clinger by comparison. I would hold that position until she left, or set herself before me on her knees. I would make her aware that she may only address me from that position from now on, even if only figuratively. Either way, I get what require: order in my house. Only in this format can you “wash her with the water of the word”.

    I would not otherwise engage her, as I would regard her as unfit for my attention, let alone my affections. This “you know where i’ll be, and you must subject yourself to me to come to me, and I will not change or waver” I do not regard as sinful, and indeed I regard as a model of how Christ deals with us. Always on His terms. Always, always, always.

    That’s how we need it.

    That’s how she needs it.

    That’s my 2 cents.

  61. jf12 says:

    New research proves cohabitation has been ever-increasingly less likely to lead to marriage, each cohabitation is increasingly unstable / lasts shorter, and any one cohabitation is much much much more likely to lead to a succession of cohabitations. In other words, we have now arrived at the “promised land” of serial monogamy.

    http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/jomf.12123/abstract

  62. The way I would approach the Titus 2 woman is find a respected older wife or widow who is frequently engaged at the church.

    I’ve seen this in action, and it definitely can help. I want to stress, as you said, that she be older. I’ve seen it tried with a mentor of the same generation as the wife, and even though she was thoroughly traditional and prepared to give biblical advice, it didn’t go very well. I think when they’re the same age there’s too much competitive tension. The problem wife kept trying to draw the other woman into her drama as a conspirator or get her to join her in bitch sessions about all the terrible trials of marriage and motherhood. When her husband found her an older woman, the mentor relationship worked much better.

    Also, as you said, she’s not there to counsel the husband or the couple — only the wife. The husband shouldn’t even be around when the two of them are together, if possible. He should find the mentor, maybe set up a schedule with her and check in with her once in a while for status reports to make sure his wife is sticking with the program, but other than that she should deal with the wife alone. A no-nonsense older woman can tell her she’s being a whiny/lazy/slutty/petulant child; but if her husband is sitting there, she’ll go into defensive lockdown mode and it’ll be useless.

  63. okrahead says:

    Prov Erbs
    Okay, if you have followed up with the investigator and the attorney, then follow Dalrock’s advice, but I would add one other thing. ALWAYS know the location of your children. Women who are going for divorce have a nasty habit of disappearing and taking the kids with them to points unknown. You could find any number of divorced men who can tell you horror stories about coming home and finding their children gone and having no idea where they have been taken by the departing wife. Considering that your wife has already threatened divorce, consult with your attorney about getting a restraining order NOW against either party taking off with the kids. Yes, she will probably be offended and pitch a fit, but this is about neither you nor her, it’s about protecting your children, and quite frankly it’s your wife who created this necessity.

  64. LiveFearless says:

    Before discounting the words of @Solomon, remember, he wrote The Altar

    Dalrock has written about the book on October 25, 2012.

  65. The remarkable thing here,

    is that nobody,
    not one person,
    is suggesting that men change the laws
    of the family courts
    and take back their universities
    and churches
    with the Law of Moses
    the honor of Homer
    and the Christianity of Christ

    This is because Dalrock knows
    that if ever he dared stand up for the Great Books for Men
    and Moses, Jesus, and Homer,
    he would never receive another instalanche
    again.

    lzolzzlozoz

  66. TLM says:

    Prov Erbs

    Get off the freaking internet. Writing personal s*it on blogs is no different than whining verbally to friends/coworkers etc. Nobody cares and it’s a massive display of weakness. Ditch this old bitch. What you’re perceiving from her sudden “niceness” or however you want to put it is the calm before the storm. Likely she’s depressed because the CrossFit Fags (Lift weights like real men you preening sissy faggots and stop with the ‘look at me” fagerecises. The bench press is always where real strength is tested!) pumped and dumped her old ass and have lost interest. Unless your private eye was able to covertly swab her twat for foreign semen samples as concrete proof of no adultery, the evidence has been staring you in the face on that narcissistic shithole called Facebook (Where old women & betas roam wild). Good grief, did you expect her to post pics of her in the act of coitus for proof. Wake up, YOUR WIFE WAS/IS GOING OUT WITH OTHER MEN! As soon as she finds the interest of another group of new men, she’ll be at it again. Quit deluding yourself! The situation sucks, but remove the scales from your eyes. Its all there in plain sight.

  67. LiveFearless says:

    If Gin Martini is correct, the writers are good.

  68. ballista74 says:

    The way I would approach the Titus 2 woman is find a respected older wife or widow who is frequently engaged at the church. Ask around for such a woman, you won’t have a problem quickly creating a short list.

    While asking around might be necessary, if a woman is a good candidate for this, she should be well-known. The candidates should be pretty apparent by their actions. See Evaluating Marriage Ministry for some guidelines.

    One more thing on Titus 2. Do not place yourself under this woman’s authority. Do not ask her to counsel you on how to be a good husband.

    I will note that this will be a very strong temptation of most women to do this without him asking. It should go without saying that Prov Erbs will need to work on maintaining proper Biblical frame despite all things.

    ’ve seen this in action, and it definitely can help. I want to stress, as you said, that she be older. I’ve seen it tried with a mentor of the same generation as the wife, and even though she was thoroughly traditional and prepared to give biblical advice, it didn’t go very well.

    Indeed, the stress is older in Titus 2. You really want a woman that’s at least one generation older than the wife (meaning this woman could have been your wife’s mother, age-wise) if you want to consider this.

    Second okrahead’s advice about the children. Second TLM as well, the evidence is more than there that this woman has played around with other men. Also second TLM about the Internet – what you say on the Internet is more than fair game in any divorce proceedings. Hers as well – her Facebook involvement is probably where the smoking gun lies in any infidelity.

  69. LiveFearless says:

    It’s over.

    Read the post @Prov Erb on the from May 12, 2014 for context.

  70. I’m sorry, this women has checked out of the marriage already and is just looking for an act from her husband that can be construed as abuse, so that she can pull the cord.

    He needs to prepare, telling him ANYTHING else is being a disservice to him.

  71. Opus says:

    I turned to Prov Erbs blog and read the entry for 12th May. Did it pass the Turing Test (i.e. is this for real or literary fantasy)? Sorry: I didn’t believe a word of it; no one’s life is that fascinating or incident-packed and no one writes like that other than creatively. A literary career beckons.

  72. Dalrock says:

    @Prov Erbs

    I don’t understand her, how can I not know a woman I’ve been with for 15+ years? Why has she changed so much in the last year? Darnit, I’m not sure Ill ever find out….

    Whether she has cheated or not, what your wife is doing matches the “Hold my beer and watch this” script I explained in detail here. Understanding this will help you counteract it. You have been focusing on the wrong kind of dread. What she should be dreading, and what is keeping her from taking the next step, is the fear of not sticking the landing and ending up remarried with a better man. Society and (inadvertantly) even you have been reinforcing what her hamster has been whispering in her ears “I can do better than him”. From your MAP page:

    I took CH’s Market Value Test for Men, and also took the Market Value Test for Women for my wife.

    I scored 11: A few attractive girls in the bar will be intrigued by your presence. But you need game to close the deal.

    She scored 21: Greater beta. More than a few attractive guys will approach you. But if your personality is flawed you risk becoming a pump and dump victim.

    Your analysis can’t be right. Part of this is “wife goggles”, you still see her as the wife of your youth. This is a good thing, except when this kind of problem comes up. Also, Roissy’s test is for SMV, not MMV. Your wife will look incredibly foolish if she divorces you and doesn’t remarry at least as well. Keep in mind that your MMVs were equal when you married. If she could have done better, she would have. Now it is 15 years later, and you have come into your own as a man while she has only aged. On top of that, the pool of available men for her has shrunk dramatically now that she is 15 years older.

    If you want to instill dread, go through the women both of you actually know from your social/family/work circles who divorced around the age of 40. Lifetime movies don’t count, the latest Oprah book doesn’t count, etc. Keep the list to real life women you actually know, not friends of a friend, etc. Now look at what these women actually ended up with. The post I linked above will help you evaluate this. You will be astounded at how absurd the myth that women, especially those over their 20s and very early 30s can remarry anywhere near as good a man as the one they divorced. If they are divorced with kids it is even worse. Start including this observation in ordinary conversation with your wife, noting how foolish Sally or Linda is, and how pathetic her new man is or how funny it is that no one has managed to ever meet the supposedly great new man in her life. This will make your wife angry at first, which will confirm what I’m saying. But over time as you bring the focus back to real women and their real life outcomes, it will be undeniable.

    Note that even the “real life” divorce empowerment stories are incredibly laughable once you look at the actual men. The supposed Latin stud from EPL turns out to be a short bald man nearly 20 years older than Elizabeth, who she set up with a shop and who married her for a visa. The supposed Jamaican adonis in How Stella Got Her Groove back turned out to be a visibly gay man who (wait for it….) married her for a visa and later took her to the cleaners in divorce court. You can’t make this stuff up.

    She was wearing a loose tank top with no bra. Everytime she bent over to pack, I could see her bare breasts easily. Although she looks great with clothes on, she is a 40 year old mom of two kids. Her breasts have stretch marks and have some sag, her stomach also has some stretch marks and loose skin. Again, she looks really fit with clothes on but without clothes I know the truth. If it’s one thing I know about this woman, she is insecure about her stretch marks. (She was always into fitness/athletic, but after the kids her body has changed.) Why did she wear that loose tank top? Is she trying to tease me?

    Still think she is out of your league? Still think there are established men out there who are better husband material who are desperately seeking to marry a 40 year old single mother with a track record of not keeping her sacred vow? Get your head straight on this and everything gets easier for both of you.

    As for why she did that, I would bet that she sensed she was losing her grip on you, and instinctively felt the need to get you back in her orbit. She won’t stop at a peep show if that doesn’t work. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if she makes a move on you fairly soon if you continue being mysterious and aloof and focused on leading. If she does, my advice remains the same as the post. Take her, as is only proper for a husband to take his wife. Upthread Barb read this as meaning to bend her over the nearest piece of furniture, but that isn’t what I was saying. I was talking about women’s fantasies to demolish the careful attentive lover myth. Don’t perform for her, just take her and don’t make a big show of it. And don’t act like it is a big deal afterwards. Remember, women who aren’t frigid don’t push their husbands away, and there is no shame in a husband taking his wife. Keep your focus on leading the family, because this will take a long time to bring things back to normal (if ever).

  73. okrahead says:

    Dalrock,
    Once again, I will approach this as if Prov Erbs blog is real and not a “wind up”. On his blog he already stated his wife asked him if he intended to “rape” her. Although the idea of “marital rape” is a travesty that violates both Biblical and common law, it is nevertheless a criminal statute (felony) in every jurisdiction in the U.S., along with most, if not all, of the Western world. If his wife suddenly decides to engage in sex after having uttered those words, he needs to Always Be Recording. What better way for her to “stick the landing” than to have him arrested for “raping” her? She gets the kids, the house, the car, etc. and he gets sodomized in prison. She may not be able to land a better man, or even a man anywhere near as good, but the thirst is strong and some foolish churchian will surely Wife That Up once she tells her tale of woe.

  74. Dalrock writes,

    “Remember, women who aren’t frigid don’t push their husbands away, and there is no shame in a husband taking his wife. Keep your focus on leading the family, because this will take a long time to bring things back to normal (if ever).”

    Really? Really Dalrock?

    Is that what he is going to tell the Family Court, that there was “no shame in a husband taking his wife” after she called 911 on him?

    Will he ever see his kids again?

    Dalrock writes, “Keep your focus on leading the family, because this will take a long time to bring things back to normal.”

    Again, Dalrock doesn’t wish to change the family court system, but just preach that “Christian men need to learn game,” need to read heartiste to learn how to better game their wives, rather than exalting Homer and Moses in the schools, as Homer and Moses are detested by Dalrockas flock of frankfaritianz fanboyz.

  75. Dalrock says:

    @okrahead

    Once again, I will approach this as if Prov Erbs blog is real and not a “wind up”.

    Likewise. It allows us to discuss common issues. Assuming he isn’t real, other men in very similar situations are likely to find the post and read it as well as the discussion. As for your warning, as I wrote above I think he should seriously consider the risk you are raising. I can’t advise him either way on it, but I’m not arguing with you. Like I said, there is no moral obligation to be foolish.

    As both Marc MacYoung and Rory Miller ably point out, violence happens between people, in certain places, in certain contexts, and, most importantly it COMES WITH INSTRUCTIONS.

    I wrote about MacYoung’s Five Stages of Violent Crime here.

  76. If his wife suddenly decides to engage in sex after having uttered those words, he needs to Always Be Recording. What better way for her to “stick the landing” than to have him arrested for “raping” her?

    That’s probably a good idea, but let’s face it: a woman doesn’t need actual evidence to accuse her husband of “rape” and have him arrested, possibly even convicted. If she wants to, she can claim he’s been doing it for years; she doesn’t have to trick him into having sex one more time and then call the cops. It’s not like a statutory rape case where the presence of semen itself proves a crime has taken place; sex between them wouldn’t be the crime. The “crime” would come from whatever lies she chooses to tell about how he forced her, which he can’t stop her from inventing from whole cloth.

    So yes, he should watch his back and do what he can to protect himself. But he shouldn’t let it make him fearful or prevent him from taking what is rightfully his.

    There is another concern, though: until he’s sure she hasn’t been passed around among the guys at the gym, he might want to consider STDs.

  77. okrahead says:

    Dalrock,
    I read your post about the headache bag. I have a similar bag of my own, although I’m generally more of an old-fashioned wheelgun guy.
    At any rate, when reading MacYoung and Miller, it’s striking (at least to me) how much of their advice/rules for dealing with an attacker or an assault actually apply to frivorce. Most men are caught completely off guard after the attacker has determined the when, where and how of the assault. The attacker does not want a fight, she wants to take out her victim as quickly as possible. The attacker is acting as a resource predator; she has “othered” the husband sufficiently in her own mind to justify her attack (hello rationalization hamster). The standard modus operandi is an ambush, where the husband “never saw it coming” and where he has already been expelled from the home and his children’s lives before he even knows what is happening. She will attempt to isolate him from any support and then destroy him, all of which she will justify to herself. It is classical resource predator behavior straight of Miller’s 1st book.
    The problem for most men is that they 1) deny what is happening (my wife can’t really be screwing half a dozen guys from the gym and planning a divorce! She would never do that!) 2) are unable to break the freeze (I can’t hire an attorney, I’ll just hunker down and wait for this to blow over). Denial and refusal to break the freeze are fatal in this situation.

  78. okrahead says:

    Cail,
    In my own divorce, my now ex-wife originally started to claim that I had threatened her (she admitted from the beginning I had never laid a finger on her or our child). As it happened, she had kept a blog of her own which she shared with a few of her friends. On this blog she had actually discussed the fact that I had never abused her or threatened her, but if she decided to divorce she could always claim I had done so. In addition, when she moved out she left behind a journal which she had apparently forgotten about (it was a few years old) in the bottom of a drawer, in her own handwriting, in which she admitted SHE had been physically abusive and I had never responded in kind. Once she was confronted with this, and was required to testify under oath, she admitted I had never abused OR threatened her. (She knew full well the consequences of a perjury charge, and that my attorney was prepared to follow up with it.) If Prov Erbs is real he needs to get a recording, if at all possible, of his wife admitting he has never harmed or threatened her. It’s invaluable if you have to go to court.

  79. Gunner Q says:

    I was wondering about STDs myself. In that situation, not only would I assume she’s being a whore, I would start refusing sex for self-preservation. That would be an interesting marital test: would she improve her conduct, both to reassure me and protect herself, or would she shrug at the refusal and walk away?

    For that matter, speaking in general terms, why are women so unconcerned about STDs? I read a statistic on J4G that half of back women have herpes! And the overall infection rates are unquestionably pandemic. Throw in other concepts like “sticking the landing” instead of being content with the current husband and modern women seem completely unwilling to restrain their behavior, no matter how self-destructive. Why is this?

    Glad I’m MGTOW. I lack competence at mind games and tolerance for emotional strife. Any guy who can get through such a situation is a tougher guy than me.

  80. Omega Man says:

    I appreciate that this is a Christian blog, but if the husband’s story is even half true, then is wife is acting in a most un-Christian like manner.

    From what has been discussed so far, my suggestion is that the husband should prepare for war. I’m absolutely convinced that she has already cheated on him with one or more men and will do so again no matter what he does to reconcile.

    Use deception, i.e. play the nice guy, until he is ready to strike. As many other commenters on this site have advised, get a good divorce lawyer, put the rest on retainer so as to deny her access, and then divorce the s§%$…. Divorce may be viewed as un-Christian, but there is no turning back now.

    In war as in life, if your opponent is in the gutter then using the tactics of the gutter may just be the smart thing to do. In other words is it right to be nice and proper and then get divorce raped, have her take the children, etc… or do you play it tough and mean.

    Isn’t there a Bible story about how Joshua won a battle by picking the meanest, crudest warriors while leaving the gentlemen on the sidelines?

  81. Mark says:

    @Prov Erbs

    “”Thank you everyone””

    It is very nice to read posts like yours….this is what makes “Mister ‘D’s” blog such a valuable commodity. I have turned friends of mine onto this blog as well as others in order to get a guy like yourself into a bit of “Red Pill Thinking”.Just so you know where I am coming from. I am 49,never married,no kids…..and I am Orthodox Jewish.The guys that you will be meeting here and commenting(with VERY SOUND ADVICE)…..are Christian,married and have kids.Most people think the Manosphere is a bunch of unmarried PUA’s…L*. I suggest that you listen and take the advice of these “married red pill guys”,such as,Dalrock,Deti,Rollo,IBB.Greyghost…etc…etc(to whom I missed).They are not here here to give you bad advice or a bum steer.They speak from a “Christian POV”(some are Evangelical,Catholic..etc).Their advice is ‘spot on’…..and most of all….IT COMES FROM EXPERIENCE!!!!!…….Shalom!

  82. For that matter, speaking in general terms, why are women so unconcerned about STDs?

    I think it’s partly a backlash from the myth of heterosexual AIDS. People have caught on that they were lied to and that you’re about as likely to get AIDS from straight sex as you are to be struck by lightning on a sunny day. By comparison to that scare of death, the other STDs seem pretty mild. They even have drugs now that suppress herpes symptoms so your casual sex partners won’t know you have it. The ads point out that the drugs do nothing to prevent transmission, so you’re still supposed to tell your partners, but wink wink, of course.

    Add to that, most women seem to have very poor future time orientation. We’re talking about people who can’t look into the future — even look at their own mothers — and accept that they won’t still be as hot and fertile at 40 as they are at 20 or 30. Examining the future consequences of current actions just isn’t their bag.

  83. Mark says:

    @GBFM

    Here we go again!

    “”I know that many here look down on the Great Heartiste for never teaching that Jesus came to abolish the Law of Moses and Genesis””

    Jesus came to abolish the “Law of Moses”?……aka….The Ten Commandments???……Bullshit!….Most Christians that I know try to ‘adhere’ to the Commandments!….and they attend Churches that study both the OT/NT……..where do you get your info?……from the bottom of a ‘glue bag’ or a ‘crack pipe’?……..*shakes head*

  84. Okrahead, I too was shocked to be accused of (emotional) abuse when my ex-wife decided she wanted a divorce. It was preposterous, and all of our friends and even her family knew it. But that’s kinda my point: even if I’d had video of me treating her like a queen for hours and hours, she could have simply said I did it when the camera wasn’t on. I could have brought all those people in as character references, and she could have claimed I only did it when we were alone. It’s impossible to prove that something never happened.

    But an actual admission from her to that effect, like you got, would be gold, I agree. It seems unlikely that a wife who is clearly already thinking in terms of those accusations would sign such a thing, but maybe he could get a couple drinks into her, get her talking about it, sweet talk her a little, and get her to admit it while he secretly records the conversation.

  85. Novaseeker says:

    Good advice, in general.

    As to the likelihood of an affair, at this point probably hard to prove. My “guess”, reading the backstory, is that there was one (or two) in the past, but not now (kind of classic pullaway and then pullback behavior), but the evidence of that is likely long gone down the virtual hole. At this point, though, care must be taken, I think.

  86. okrahead says:

    Novaseeker,
    Did you actually say “the evidence” went down her “virtual hole”? That’s an entire blog post by itself.

  87. Tam the Bam says:

    Oh dearie me. If not trollollol (as suspected), Prov. ‘erbs is doomed, Ah tell yeez, doomed.

    Okrahead is both accurate and detailed on the various points, mainly (like me) through bitter, protracted experience. Read that stuff over, until you understand.

    Long story short?
    Sell the fuck out of everything you can, in the short term. Down to your car, your suits and the garden planters. Hit the ‘Bay. Bank it in trusts for the kids (age thirty, not twenty-one, that is just .. dumb).
    Burn everything left standing: to the ground.
    Jail ain’t so bad, if you’re old and ugly (and bad). Hey! the food is shit, but it’s cheap.

    If that poor man thinks there’s anything left in grandma’s larder for him, if he just behaves himself, he’s a fool.

  88. ballista74 says:

    I think this catches the general relevant advice here:

  89. JDG says:

    Hit the ‘Bay. Bank it in trusts for the kids

    Can she get at this or is it protected from the mother of the children?

  90. JDG says:

    I too was shocked to be accused of (emotional) abuse

    I’ve seen this card played before. I just tell them “emotional abuse” is NOT abuse. They don’t like that. They don’t usually like me either after I tell them, but if they want help they have to be willing to face the truth.

    Some women are just plain sick in the head. I mean beyond the normal illogical gibberish. They want what they want and that’s all that matters. They nuke their families and ruin their own lives chasing the wind.

    A woman once told me that she could keep on spending her credit cards because she deserved all the things she was buying. She actually said that she didn’t have to make any payments because she was a good person and/or deserved the things she was purchasing (or some such nonsense). I’m not making this up. Although I can’t remember her exact words, neither can I forget the impression I had that this woman was capable of anything (not in a good way).

  91. Sean says:

    Just a lurker and with no dog in the fight (unmarried/no kids) but…

    I see guilt in her actions. Perhaps she hasn’t slept with anyone else but I’m not taking any bets on that. I see a lot of guilt in not saying anything, paying your student debt, nothing being said about the new car, etc. Seems and comes across to me as being really guilty.

  92. Crank says:

    Assuming proverbs is not a troll, I can’t fathom how this situation is salvageable. I also think he is foolish to let her repeated allegations of physical abuse via text go unrebutted. It will be used as Exhibit A when she files for the restraining order. Maybe it’s inevitable anyway, but implicitly accepting her hamsterized account of what happened can’t be helpful. He should ask his legal counsel about it if he hasn’t already.

  93. okrahead says:

    He needs to consult with his attorney about getting her on tape admitting that 1) he is not abusive 2) she has threatened suicide. In some states it’s legal to tape another party without her knowledge, in some it is not. If he can legally get a recording of her admissions on these two points it will go a long way for him in court, should it come to that.

  94. Bee says:

    Hey, Matt Forney is that you?

    Or, could this be affiliate marketing for The Last Resort coaching?

    http://www.divorcebusting.com/schedule_db_coaching.htm

  95. greyghost says:

    Crank
    It is not salvageable it is just the effect the hostages have. With out the universally known mother gets the kids this is no story. (she is gone) Only at best 2 to 3 percent of marriages that have problems and children lead to this kind of stuff. With out the kids my wife is single 2 months after the first child is born. Just the way it is. I was always amazed by the term abusive girlfriend. That is impossible. In fact any guy that needs a particular pussy that bad deserves to suffer as much as possible.
    All this is the power of a man’s love for his children. You can build a civilization on that. Feminism and any other government tyranny depends on it. The ratchet hoe and the African American baby momma and the thug culture is founded and financed by the woman gets the child. look at Chicago, and Detroit or the local news where ever you are and see what happens. It ends almost over night with father’s rights and default custody even with out the cash prizes. The sex appeal of the thug goes away real fast. The PUA is not as successful with out solid beta qualities etc. Church boys start looking sexy then.

  96. Dalrock says:

    @Bee

    Hey, Matt Forney is that you?

    That is what I was thinking. I mentioned it to my wife yesterday. If it is a troll, my money would be on Matt. He would have the insight and the talent to pull it off.

  97. gunner451 says:

    I read through the blog and it seems legit so here are my thoughts:

    1. She most likely was screwing around with someone at the gym or at least was having one hell of an emotional affair with one or more of the “guys” there. It may be over (she may have been pumped and dumped by one or more of the guys).
    2. She is being coached by someone that knows the ropes, the whole “rape” thing and trying to get you to admit to it or say sorry in an E-mail just screams “setup” so watch your back.

    Plenty of people have given good advice here as to what to do to protect yourself but it appears that the fling may be over which is why she is warming up to you and “helping out” like the paying off of the student loan (could be a guilt reflex or she could still be working to set you up by getting you to drop your guard). In either case if you decide to stay be aware that things will never be the same, you may never know what she did and you will never trust her like you did before this whole thing started. The wound may heal but there will be one hell of a scar marring your relationship with your wife. I’ll be praying for you either way.

  98. Gunner Q says:

    JDG @ 4:34 pm:
    “Some women are just plain sick in the head. I mean beyond the normal illogical gibberish. They want what they want and that’s all that matters. They nuke their families and ruin their own lives chasing the wind.”

    I’m cluing into this myself. Been red pill long enough I can squeeze into the female mindset, all feelings and jockeying for social rank, but it still can’t fully describe a modern woman’s self-destruction. I wonder if women can ruin themselves emotionally the way they can sexually. Men seem much better at pulling out of self-inflicted death spirals.

    Women, I don’t get you. Kneel at your husband’s feet and he’ll give you everything, just as we who kneel at Christ’s feet will be given eternity.

  99. Carlos says:

    Off the specific topic here, but fully on-topic with the basic themes of this blog: http://time.com/3028827/women-against-feminism-gets-it-right/ Hits it on the head. You will like.

  100. JDG says:

    Carlos – Cathy Young writes from the view that early feminism was and egalitarianism is good. Both views are false. Sure she and those in her camp may be at odds with “3rd stage” feminism, but make no mistake, they are feminists.

    Early feminism was based on the false notion that women as a sex were oppressed by men, and this false narrative is still perpetuated today and behind many of the misandric laws we now enjoy. Egalitarianism is based on the false notion that men and women are equal, which we clearly are not (at least not in the way the term is used by moderns).

    Everything that these women claim to have achieved, was given to them or made possible by the efforts of men. Yet these types of women have the nerve to claim they can do it all on there own. Still, there has been an honest quote or two from a feminist here and there. Camille Page has one which most folks here are likely familiar with:

    If civilization had been left in female hands, we would still be living in grass huts.

  101. Anonymous Reader says:

    Carlos, Cathy Young has been an equity feminist for years. She arrived in the US in the 1980’s as 2nd stage feminism was becoming entrenched in institutions. The fact that Time is willing to print this essay simply suggests that the radfems are slowly losing their grip.

    Cathy Young pretty much ignores much of what happened in the 70’s – solipsism, perhaps, but the fact remains that Shulamith Firestone’s Dialectic of Sex and Susan Brownmiller’s Men, Women and Rape both had a whole heck of a lot to do with the course of 2nd stage feminism, and therefore its mutant offspring, 3rd stage.

    Don’t be fooled by minor conciliatory remarks.

  102. jf12 says:

    LiveFearless is right: it’s over. If at least half of what he was saying was true (iffy, because currently the timelines seem skewed to say the least), his wife said she was afraid of him being in the same bed and that’s why he moved out. But then laundry, and sammiches, and dread?

  103. Badger says:

    I agree with Gin Martini that this dude is probably trolling and setting us up looking for someone to peddle some kind of tradcon advice they can spin as misogynistic or whatever. I used to think it was too farfetched for critics to mock up an entire pseudo-redpill-centric persona and/or blog, but a few years around the Internet shows you that haters will stop at nothing.

    If he’s not trolling, his marriage is almost certainly over and she’s probably cheating on him already. Like spreadsheet guy, she’s getting in shape to recruit other sex partners.

    Josh said: “Helping others is often a very potent way to help yourself feel better about a really bad situation.”

    This is absolutely true. I went through a bad breakup a while back, nothing like divorce nightmares but shitty. To cope with the self-pity and extra time, I tried to concentrate on doing small positive deeds when they presented themselves – help a buddy with a problem, call an old relative, donate some old stuff, whatever. Nothing transformative but marginally positive. Really helped get my mind off things and feel better about my impact on the world.

  104. hey dalrockasz,

    my wifez of thirty yearz has been hanging out with a group of much younger guys in our bed when da gbfm is away on business tripz. should i say anythingz? there is no evidence dat she is cheating for sure, as the sticky substance on the sheets could well have been tartar sauce, as she claimed. so i don’t want to butt in where i have no busisnsgz zlzlzzo and make a mountain out of a molehill lzozozozo

    tanks in avdnaced for da adviceez!!

  105. Good Lord. The more I hear what life is like for married people past the newlywed stage, the more I wonder, “Why on earth would anyone legally wed?”

  106. I could understand if some couple had a “spiritual wedding” and exchanged Christian vows. Legally wed, these days? What dunce does that?

  107. Cane Caldo says:

    @archer

    “Why on earth would anyone legally wed?”

    For a wife and for children. And if you’re “on the hook” for children, then you’re on the hook for everything anyway. Refusing to legally marry on the grounds that “at least she can’t divorce me” is useless. Unmarried women can lie, cheat, and betray, too.

    And while it may be hard to find good Christian counsel and support for a husband dealing with a rebellious wife, there is literally no such thing as counsel and support for dealing with a rebellious girlfriend.

  108. greyghost says:

    Cane
    Girlfriends are easy
    “get lost bitch” That’s it she is just a girlfriend so what.

  109. greyghost,

    You’re missing a point Cane made: In his scenario, there are children.

  110. MarcusD says:

    Stop Fem-Splaining: What ‘Women Against Feminism’ Gets Right

    http://time.com/3028827/women-against-feminism-gets-it-right/

  111. PE says:

    That was good advice from TLM. The blog is now offline, and I’ve also gone off Facebook and other social media.

    I’m still amazed at how my life has spun out of control. Even when I read my own story I feel like this guy can’t be real, he’s the one whose face is getting pounded on the ground and he’s just sitting there doing nothing. Dang, I can’t believe I’ve been this pathetic… many folks believe I’m a troll simply b/c no guy would sit there and get his balls kicked like that, esp a follower of Christ. Well, here I am getting my balls kicked. I’ve taken note of all the good advice here, thank you Dalrock for your response and everyone’s comments. I knew I had wife goggles on but boy, I can’t believe how large they were. We got married when she was 22-23, and I was a few years older. Neither of us have a single divorced person in our entire family, and both of our parents + grandparents have been married over 40 years. I looked at most of the manosphere’s guide to marriage and my wife/I meet every single criteria. (Married young, virgins when we got married, really had a fun relationship, the Lord met all of our needs, etc.) Really, how did I end up here? Feels like a dream most days..

    Christ calls us to love our enemies. I’m not sure what that means for my marriage, but I will make changes and wait. I’ve been De-Escalating and am basically acting like I have a roommate for now. I need to taper my emotions a bit for the next steps of what okrahead has been advising.

    Thank you everyone. May the Lord bless you and keep you brothers (or others if you’re not a Christian).

  112. And while it may be hard to find good Christian counsel and support for a husband dealing with a rebellious wife, there is literally no such thing as counsel and support for dealing with a rebellious girlfriend.

    Sure there is, it’s far easier than with a wife. You dump and move on. The real kind of dread for women. Before marriage, you have all the power, afterwards, you have none.

  113. greyghost says:

    malcolmthecynic
    Go down to the court house get a dna test and set the CS amount and step. She will bring the child around. The only thing his fatherhood means in the modern world is how writes the check. He has absolutely no rights or say so regarding his child unless the mother allows it.

  114. greyghost says:

    Carlos, JDG
    They can sense men aren’t buying the bullshit anymore and the backpedalling begins. In the sexual and marriage market place the girls against feminism are attractive and pleasant towards men. The laws of misandry are still in place but it is a start.

  115. LiveFearless says:

    The @Prov Erbs blog has a new status:

    This blog is open to invited readers only

    http://p36husband.blogspot.com/

    The original text has already been archived.

    This is entertaining.

  116. greyghost says:

    check this guy out red pill is spreading

  117. ManlyMan says:

    “Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM) says:

    July 26, 2014 at 11:22 am

    The remarkable thing here,

    is that nobody,
    not one person,
    is suggesting that men change the laws
    of the family courts
    and take back their universities
    and churches…”

    We just assumed you were workin’ on that big fella.

  118. jf12 says:

    re: 50 shades movie. I’m now going to ruin it for 100 million shades of women. They won’t be able to watch it without my words whispering, reverberating, in their ears the whole time. They’ll turn away in revulsion, their desires frustrated, and angy at having been foiled (I tend to have that effect …) Ready?

    Jamie Dornan is a mouth breather.

  119. Ang Aamer says:

    And for the record I would like to thank Spreadsheet Guy.

    Ever since I read my Wife the excuses from his spreadsheet I have had sex for 3 days straight.
    (I don’t think that happened on our honeymoon).

    NAWALT – works both ways boys

    Open dialogue about sex when there are no issues is a beautiful thing..

  120. greyghost,

    That’s the whole point. He wants a relationship with the children, he still NEEDS a relationship with the mother.

  121. Bluepillprofessor says:

    I have been reading Dalrock for almost a year and finally found a post of his that I cannot agree with.

    A frigid, sexually denying wife has violated her marriage vows just as if she has “cheated” on him. Indeed, she is “CHEATING” every single time she plays her sexual denial games. Sexual denial is adultery in every meaning of the Lord’s words. Jesus said: No divorce “excepting for marital unfaithfulness….” Denying sex is CLEARLY being unfaithful to the marital vows and Dalrock would keep this man a prisoner to HIS promises while SHE is free to fulfill HER promises. I don’t believe that is what Jesus meant.

    The ONLY answer a husband has with the law and society against him is to pull out the HARD DREAD. Women are the gatekeepers of sex but MEN are the gatekeepers of commitment. If she has the doors to sex closed, a man has EVERY RIGHT to close the doors of commitment. The solution in the Old Testament to a sexually denying contentious wife was to get another wife and run the hard dread, relegating her to a back room of the home where she can bitch and whine alone. In the 1st Century, the concept of denying a husband sex was virtually unknown so the Lord did not address it.

    If we could go out and get a younger, prettier wife when our old, used up one starts denying sex then Dalrock would be correct in this analysis.

  122. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Quick off-topic request…
    Dalrock, I’m in your general area, and would like to check out your church. I understand that you might not want this info out in the open (for very obvious reasons), but I’ve been a long time commenter (recently slacked off) and was hoping you could help me out. Hell, just a church you’ve heard good things about would be helpful. I’ve pretty much exhausted my list of hopefuls, and have been exhausted by the search. My email’s good this time.

    [D: Sorry, I don't have one to recommend. Perhaps someone else will.]

    Regardless, thanks for your posts and the opportunity for us to vent and compare notes. I have to admit, while I respect your and Deti’s opinions, I’m much closer to okrahead on this topic.

    And on topic…
    I’m glad things seem to be going for the better recently with Prov Erbs. Hopefully it continues. Keep in mind, though, that moving to a different state has likely uprooted her social network. If the investigator has only been on the case since the move, it’s not surprising he hasn’t found anything. That said, I’ll repeat that I hope the situation continues to improve.

  123. BluePill,

    If you’re defining “adultery” as “unfaithfulness to the marriage vows” you’re opening up an awful lot of things to count as adultery. This looks to me like an attempt to create a get out of jail free card for a bad marriage, and women can apply it to men as well when you’re talking about such a vague statement.

  124. “Not orgasming is the new virgin. “I never came until I came with you!” is the new, “You’re the first!””

    Haha!

  125. “Unmarried women can lie, cheat, and betray, too.”

    Yeah, but can they legally take at least half of your stuff if the relationship comes to an end?

    It’s a rather sad and revealing thing that, as a Christian who’s opposed to pre-marital sex, I find myself empathizing with guys who choose to shack up instead. I’m with Archer. A brief two years ago, I was depressed and mad at God for my singleness; now I’m thanking His ears off.

  126. JDG says:

    Yeah, but can they legally take at least half of your stuff if the relationship comes to an end?

    Not if the state doesn’t consider you married and you don’t have any children. If, however, the government decides you have entered into a contract with a woman and the state, or a child is in the picture, your assets are most likely toast.

    At that point I would be more concerned for the child’s future than any amount of money. Being raised by a single mother is one of the worst things that can happen to a child.

    I am not recommending shacking up when I write this. What I am saying is that I completely understand when folks decide to marry within the Church and not invite the state into it.

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  128. BradA says:

    PE, remember that things live forever on the Internet, but at least it is not actively out there now.

    ====

    On the issue of not marrying, lifetime companionship has some merit. It may not be all, but it can have value. Being alone when you are old may seem appealing now, but is not all it is cracked out to be, and I am only partially alone (no children).

  129. deti says:

    1. Barb said; “ Women may fantasize about “being bent and screwed silly,” but those are just fantasies; more often than not, being bent and screwed silly will not lead to her orgasm, but to a sore body and then some.”

    “Women fantasize about lots of different things, BTW, gentle and attentive lovers being one of them.”

    I said: “Regarding rough sex, you’re wrong again. If the woman is attracted, she will want pretty much whatever kind of sex the man is willing to give her.

    “***if your woman is into you, she will very much enjoy vigorous sex, and, well, really get off on it.”

    Barb said: “Regarding what I said, you are wrong again, deti. I never said anything against vigorous sex. How does that happen that I type one thing and you read something completely different?”

    No, I’m not wrong, Barb. You said women “fantasize” about vigorous rough sex and that those are “just fantasies”. I mean, that’s what your words “bent and screwed silly” connote. YOUR WORDS. I simply reviewed what you wrote and disagreed with it. Because it’s wrong. Women do not just fantasize about rough sex. They seek it out. They desire it. They enjoy it when they get it from an attractive man.

    I simply make sure that your ridiculous statements are exposed for the stupidities and fraud they are, so that no one takes you seriously.

  130. Dalrock says:

    Barb has left the building.

  131. deti says:

    “If [Prov Erbs] is a troll, my money would be on Matt [Forney]. He would have the insight and the talent to pull it off.”

    Forney has also done this before – impersonating a Christian red pill woman advocating BDSM and spanking.

    http://mattforney.com/2014/03/24/entering-virginias-secret-garden-or-how-to-troll-the-manosphere-for-fun-and-profit/

  132. AdmiralBenbow says:

    I would focus on this issue with his pastor. Hopefully the pastor understands how wildly inappropriate this is for a Christian wife. If this doesn’t get some fire in his belly, nothing will. If possible, members of the church should reinforce the husband’s message that this is unacceptable.

    D, you are an incurable optimist, aren’t you? More likely, the pastor will call the elders and “counsel” this man on what sins he must be committing that would cause his nice, sweet, innocent wife to feel the need to engage in this kind of behavior. Maybe he isn’t making her feel like he loves her the way Evangelical Beta-Orbiting Jesus makes the Evangelical church feel like he loves them (you know, love without repentance and submission).

  133. Gunner Q says:

    It isn’t just about the pastor helping the couple. They need exposure to female rebellion and red-pill perspectives, too. Counseling can go both ways if you play your cards right and the pastor isn’t a sold-out Churchian.

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  135. Hamilton says:

    If my wife behaved in the way Pro Erbs wife is behaving, I’d just demand that she (literally at first, then figuratively) kneel at my feet. She could choose to follow my lead, or continue in her rebellion. If she continued, I would, without warning, take all my money I could get together and move to Croatia, Bhutan, or Dubai. Somewhere with strong no extradition laws in place. She could continue to whore around if she liked, albeit with zero money and children to care for.

    Obviously this has an enormous downside; you are leaving your children and will probably not see them again until they are 18 and they can come visit you on their own. And you will be leaving them in poverty. That sucks, no denying that. But they are screwed either way. Divorce is absolute hell on small children and a disappeared dad isn’t much worse than a divorced, but still lurking in the background dad. It might even be less confusing.

    Most men can’t get themselves to accept the sacrifice this takes, starting a new career, learning a language, being poor yourself for a while. But it’s also a challenge and adventure, something that a man like this needs to refocus on something other than his heartbreak and betrayal. There is no reason (moral or otherwise) for a man to stick around in this country while a court takes away everything he has and basically shackles himself into slavery for the woman who cuckolded him. She drops a nuclear bomb, and all you do is move away from where she intends it to land.

    A good friend of mine in high school had a father who did this. When Norrris was 5 his father moved to Cypress and never sent them any money. He hated his father growing up. He never understood why his dad wouldn’t pay child support or help his mom with any bills. He watched his mom struggle and fight for basic necessities of life. Then, when he was 16, he flew to Cypress and stayed with his dad for an entire summer. He learned then why his dad left, about the court system in the US, about what happened to precipitate the divorce. It completely changed the guy. His hatred of his father was replaced by respect. Last I heard, after graduation Norris moved to Cypress and was working with his father.

  136. Bee says:

    @Cautiously Pessimistic,

    “Dalrock, I’m in your general area, and would like to check out your church.”

    Try contacting Scott at his blog:

    http://courtshippledge.com/about/

    I think he referenced a good church (Byzantine Catholic with lots of young families) in your city.

    (I am going by memory, so I could be wrong.)

    Good luck.

  137. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Thanks, Bee. I’ll check it out.

  138. Thug says:

    @Bluepillprofessor Your comments on a wife denying her husband sex are well written and in my opinion 100% correct.
    I really feel for Prov Erbs. His wife has almost certainly cheated on him. Can he wipe the slate clean for the sake of the children and start afresh? In this day and age with all the toxic teachings in media, i doubt it. It’s sure not an easy road following the bible.

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  140. PE says:

    Thank you again everyone for your comments. I’ve made a decision after reading the advice given by Dalrock here and also by Cane Caldo, to step forward and “keep no record of wrongs.” My heart was in great pain, but now I feel a new resolve to be a leader and the man of God that He requires of me. I’m not sure what life will be like but I’m sleeping in my own bed now (she’s in the guest room), and have taken control of my house again. I’ve made so many things, including sex and my own ambitions my idol, and I know the Lord is not pleased. My focus was so much on sex, now I want a new frame. Many blessings to you all, this was a bitter red pill moment for me but necessary. – PE

  141. Danceny says:

    Why did you tell your whoring wife you’d move out of your own home, pussy?

  142. theasdgamer says:

    @ deti, barb

    There are signs that a wife is attracted to her husband. Does she flirt with him a lot? Is she glad when he flirts with her and distracts her from her chores? Does she ask his opinion about things? Is she happy when sex occurs that is inconvenient to her plans? Does she suggest buying lubricant to have handy on each floor? Does she insist on him shaving before sex, or does she want him, whiskers and all?

    Once you have established her level of attraction, then it’s possible to gauge her attitude towards sex.

    Regarding rough sex: Rough sex by a man indicates his strong attraction. Women like for attractive men to find them attractive. The more vigorous the sex, the stronger the attraction–at least in the minds of women. If an attractive man is “bending her over and pounding her silly,” she perceives him as strongly desiring her, and her own desire and pleasure will likely skyrocket. The woman feels the strength of the man’s hands gripping her shoulders, hips, etc. and this arouses her. Obviously, injury will diminish desire, although some minor pain may heighten both desire and pleasure for a woman. Lots of women aren’t aware of this and are surprised to find out what they like, which is the opposite of what they have been told they will like. That includes older, Christian women. The woman wants to hear the man’s expressions of desire, too–all the gasps, moans, and grunts. With an inexperienced woman, escalate slowly (i.e., start gently and ramp up the vigor as she becomes aroused) or you will scare her.

    If you are having sex on a fine oriental carpet, your woman may jump up quickly to prevent the carpet from getting soiled. That is no reflection on her desire for the man.

    Right after sex, ask her to wear panties using tissues to keep your man juice in. This indicates her level of attraction, too.

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