It would be immoral *not* to blow up her family.

Bell has a difficult marriage and turned to Yahoo Answers for advice:  I want out I can’t take him any longer?

We have been to counseling and he stopped going. He refuses to go back. He has an attitude most of the time. He complains and talks about me behind my back. He says things to me like what’s his is his and I don’t have anything he has the job. I take care of the kids, and later says he’s kidding. I’m not on the bank account. He only talks to his family and friends on the phone when I’m not around. He never wants to go out with me. When I make plans with friends they always get ruined. Because he can’t watch the kids. Twice this year already on my birthday and on Sunday. We never do anything I want to do. If I bring anything up, he blows me off. When I try talking to him his response is, whatever! His sister takes screen shots from my fb wall and text them to him, and they talk about me. He looks at girls in front of me, than claim he doesn’t know he’s doing it. He smiled and winked at our female realtor. Claims he didn’t know he did. Advice? I’m now beyond that breaking point.

Upon learning that this woman is on the verge of going back on her sacred vow and throwing her children’s lives into turmoil, the Answers community is nervous.  However, their fear is not that she will put her kids through the divorce meat grinder, but that she will fail to do so.

Answerer Kay describes herself as a counselor and advocate at a domestic violence shelter, and offers insight which would make FotF proud:

His departure from counseling tells me that he isn’t invested in changing any of his behaviors. I hope you’re still going so you can start exploring options for taking care of yourself and the children. I’m talking about protecting your self-esteem and feelings. It doesn’t sound like he has regard for anyone else’s feelings.

In my field we call his treatment of you emotional and verbal abuse. The fact that your name isn’t on the bank account is a very bad sign of his need to be in total control. I’m quite sure that he knows what he’s doing when he stares at or winks at other women–I think we call that lying. Abusers often play the game of “you must be imagining things.” I’m very concerned about what goes on with his family.

I remember a co-worker asking a counseling client what she wanted to teach her children about love and mutual respect. I think it’s time for you to decide how healthy this marriage is for you and whether it’s time to move on. It’s not an easy decision, I know. Talk to your counselor, talk to an attorney, join a support for abused women to learn how others have handled things. Get everything in place before you make your move. Controllers tend to play hardball when their sense of control is threatened. Be very careful what you put on FB and who you tell what. Best wishes for a happier life.

l8tr g8tr is more brief:

Sounds like it’s time to end it.

RobertRay responds with practical advice:

You are beyond the breaking point and it’s obvious that it’s time for you to get out. I know it’s easier said than done but there is nothing left for you in this marriage. It is completely one sided and you have been taken advantage of for far too long.

Do you have a friend or relative that you can stay with while you sort this out? You really need to start looking for a job because you are going to need to be self supportive if you want to leave.

King Swahili explains that the problem is her lack of an effective threatpoint:

Well you see there Bell he thinks very little of you. You’re no where near his equal and he treats you as so. You’re job is to take care of his kids, that’s about it. You’re a breeding partner and that’s the only partnership you have in this relationship. He stopped counseling because he didn’t want to do it, and what say did you have in the matter? None. You can’t afford to leave because you have no income. As far as the winking and other stuff all guys do that, it’s only when the wife takes offense to it that it becomes and issue. Do you nag him alot? It sounds like you do. Maybe you can start nagging less and start trying to be his friend a little? Oh, and btw, what are you going to do when you “break”, because if you’re thinking of harming yourself or your children you need to find help now. Otherwise you are in a position where you have no leverage. Good luck.

Renee also advises ratcheting up the threatpoint:

It takes 2 to make your marriage work, sounds like you tried. Your husband is pretty much not seeing that your not happy. So now that your at this point, you need to follow through. Maybe separatation is best for now. Your husband will see that your serious, and he needs to make changes. You need a game plan, and then just go for it. Good luck

I haven’t included my own answer, but it was the only one (out of 6) which counseled against divorce.

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148 Responses to It would be immoral *not* to blow up her family.

  1. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    I can’t imagine why he doesn’t want to spend time with her.

  2. myrealitie says:

    Your advice has the most votes!

  3. jf12 says:

    “Twice this year already on my birthday and on Sunday.” yet when men try to make this argument …

  4. galloper6 says:

    Anyone esle suspect this woman has a replacement male ALREADY picked out?

  5. Anonymous Reader says:

    It would appear that he may be running a version of Dread game. It is not working, or perhaps not yet working. Game is just a tool, it’s not a magic wand. Sometime men deploy Game when their wife is just too far gone, or never really was all that “married” in the first place, and it does not work as one might expect. On the other hand, it is established that a man who begins to apply Game to a wife with a major attitude can expect all sorts of bucking, snorting and other pushback from the very first. Applying Game can make discord and strife worse for a while because the woman isn’t used to the man actually standing up to her temper tantrums.

    More interesting are the responses, some may doubt that answerer Kay is really a counselor. I have never been through the counseling machine, but those men I know who have would just nod their head at the response, especially the blather about “abuse” and “controlling”. Those married people who call themselves “traditional” should contemplate what life would be like with someone like “Kay” in their life on a weekly basis – with a judge at her back, ready to issue a Protective Order at any time of the day or night.

  6. I was trying to add a response there for Bell but it wouldn’t let me. I wanted to ask her why they were even in marital counciling in the first place? She never mentions adultry, physical abuse, addictions, nothing. He is probably refusing to go (now) because he has determined that it is a waste of their time (and money) since the councilor can’t really fix a problem if the problem is simply, she’s not haaaaappy.

    I’m guessing she is not on the bank account because if she was, should would empty it. This guy probably knows his wife and what she can handle (and what she can’t.) Some women are simply not responsible enough to manage a budget, to have a bank account, or even a credit card.

  7. Anonymous Reader says:

    jf12
    “Twice this year already on my birthday and on Sunday.” yet when men try to make this argument …

    Heh. Indeed…

  8. I get the feeling that this is one-sided. She is telling this from her solipsistic point of view. Notice how she didn’t elaborate on her birthday got ruined, but she clearly did not want to spend time with her family, just her friends. And that is just the tip of the iceberg.

    Why do I get the feeling that if she had an avatar online, it would be a picture of her with a martini glass?

  9. It would appear that he may be running a version of Dread game.

    Could be, though he’s not doing it very well — denying looking at other women, for instance.

    Could also be he’s just a jerk. But if that’s the case, he didn’t become one after they married; she married a jerk and wants to return him for a refund because he didn’t turn into a nice guy.

    Some of her complaints don’t make sense and others wouldn’t bother her if they happened during the honeymoon period. She’s already decided to leave — check the last sentence — so she’s gathering reasons, throwing in everything she can think of except the kitchen sink.

    Odds are they weren’t totally happy with each other when they married, but he figured she was good enough and she figured she could change him. They probably said they’d have a 50/50 marriage, which means he thought it would be 50/50 and she thought she would be the boss. She started to resent him when he didn’t change, and he started to resent her nagging him to. Her attraction to him waned because he passive-aggressively dodged her shit-tests (“whatever”) rather than standing up to her. The sex probably dropped off very early, and before long she began to withhold it as a way to get control over him, then he started thinking about straying and checking out other women. She may have gained weight and/or become unpleasant enough that he doesn’t really care anymore.

    Or maybe he just can’t stand being married to a woman who thinks “want” gets an apostrophe. I feel ya, dude.

  10. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    She may have gained weight and/or become unpleasant enough that he doesn’t really care anymore.

    For me, the big tell is they were going to counseling and now he’s refusing to go. Given how those gigs are run (I went to premarital, which was bad enough) he’s most likely realized the fix is in, and isn’t interested in throwing good money after bad.

  11. John South says:

    If a woman is whining to her friends how bad you are that means it’s working. Of course the friends say “dump him”.

    That tends to take a long time because she’s getting a lot out of that whole drama.

    It also tends to make the friends attracted when they hear what a bad boy you’ve been and that can be used in various ways.

    Of course they say dump the bastard but they’re tingling.

  12. jf12 says:

    “If a woman is whining to her friends how bad you are that means it’s working.” I knew there was something I was doing rong. All of her fakebooks still gush about my wonderfulnesses. I think it’s only me who hears about how divorceably I put the forks in the dishwasher.

  13. JDG says:

    Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

  14. Dalrock says:

    @Cail Corishev

    Or maybe he just can’t stand being married to a woman who thinks “want” gets an apostrophe. I feel ya, dude.

    My bad. I assumed the apostrophe because Answers tends to eat them and the word was mangled to “wan”. I have fixed the errant fix.

  15. Bluedog says:

    Dalrock,
    I’ve been out awhile – storm of we moved + my home PC broke, but always reading and I have a few cents on this.

    I credit you with sticking to your competence. I went to the site and read your answer and there are obviously jagged little tendrils on a bitter pill that will go down turgidly for many (many!) – but I read at core that what you are doing is what you do best and what you believe in – you are making the case for family.

    You have a right to make that case and a right to your beliefs and a right to advocate for them. You should not be called a “boob” by a self-appointed manosphere critic, you should not be written off as another hater on the manosphere, you sure as hell shouldn’t be coupled with “hate sites” or “hate groups”. You should be listened to and your words and arguments should be accounted for, whether people agree with them or not. I will continue to argue among those left of center that insofar as we believe self-described conservatives could bear to read, if nothing else, the very first PAGE of the Communist Manifesto – not because we liberals or they conservatives agree with communist answers – we both disagree – but because conservatives might be surprised to discover they, like liberals, agree often with Marx’s description of the problem, if not his solutions … in precisely the same way: liberals and feminists need to hear from you and hear you out. Those who would silence your or marginalize you create an intellectual ghetto with a heavy mortgage, payable by society, as a whole.

    But I emphasize staying on message – you do well on that. You don’t stray to areas where you have no expertise and that keeps you out of trouble. Too many manosphere authors feel competent to opine on everything – as if their failure to have an answer for everything means they are not competent to speak to areas for which they have something important to say. This gets them into a lot of trouble. It backs them into corners that are hard to back out of, and makes them indefensible by those who might otherwise sympathize.

    There are “progressives” and others on the far “left” out there with the family unit in their sights. This does NOT describe everyone close to midpoint or slightly left of the political center. Liberals who favor high taxes, equal rights, equality under the law, and who understand things like overseas outsourcing to be a turning of the back on one’s countryman in the name of all-powerful profit … they have families too, and they care about them. Without a false casus belli (i.e.: manboobz) or a true casus belli (i.e.: the author genuinely staking out a stupid position) … they can, should and will listen.

    [D: Thank you.]

  16. Thinkn'Man says:

    Women seem so utterly incapable of perspective and balanced thinking that it is like dealing with an eleven year old girl who isn’t allowed to go to the latest “in thing to do”.
    “You NEVER let me do ANYTHING!!!”
    (When in fact dad has reservations about this one event named “THUG-FEST-14″)

  17. theasdgamer says:

    The man realized that the counselor is blue pill and the man is now red pill. Clearly, she’s unhaaaaappy.

    Renee wrote: “Your husband is pretty much not seeing that your not happy.” Priceless. :/

    “We never do anything I want to do.”
    We know that women who are submitted to their husbands are thrilled with whatever they do with their husbands. Women who are submitted want to be led, not quizzed about what they want to do. This is standard hamsterization.

    @Cail
    “Could also be he’s just a jerk.”
    Of course. All men are jerks. Standard bluepill stuff.

    “She’s already decided to leave — check the last sentence — so she’s gathering reasons, throwing in everything she can think of except the kitchen sink. ”

    Of course, she’s just trying to justify her sin.

    “They probably said they’d have a 50/50 marriage, which means he thought it would be 50/50 and she thought she would be the boss.”

    Dingdingdingdingding! Great comment!

    “Her attraction to him waned because he passive-aggressively dodged her shit-tests (“whatever”) ”

    How is saying “whatever” different from being aloof?

  18. Theasdgamer, it’s mostly in the delivery, so granted that’s hard to discern here. But I get the impression that she’s annoyed with him more than dreading anything. She describes him as more indecisive than aloof. Things like eyeing pretty girls and then denying it sound like he’s trying to bug her without taking credit for it.

    Also, “whatever” can be aloof when you’re dating, but in marriage you can’t really say, “Whatever, I’m done with you,” so it’s more likely to mean, “I don’t want to argue; do whatever you want.”

    Don’t think that I’m trying to blame any of this on him. I’m not. I was mostly trying to head off any claims of, “See, he’s using Dread Game and it doesn’t work.” If he’s trying to use Dread Game, he doesn’t understand it or he doesn’t have the guts to follow through with it. But I think it’s more likely that she’s worn down his ability to care, so he either blows her off or takes shots at her now and then to get back at her.

  19. vascularity777 says:

    @ swiftfoxmark2:
    “I get the feeling that this is one-sided. She is telling this from her solipsistic point of view.”
    I thought the same as I read her perspective. I’d like to hear his perspective of the marriage.
    @IBB:
    “I’m guessing she is not on the bank account because if she was, should would empty it. This guy probably knows his wife and what she can handle (and what she can’t.) Some women are simply not responsible enough to manage a budget, to have a bank account, or even a credit card.”
    I thought the same. I’ve been down this road myself with finances. Never again will I entrust my financial well-being to a woman that claims love for me. We also did couples therapy which was a total waste of money. Men are always wrong, even when the wife if wrong. Therapists and pastors……

  20. Lion says:

    Sounds like another case of “My relationship just didn’t look like what I see on television” scenarios. However, in this case, they falsely labelled his behavior as abuse. After my wife had an affair, I locked her out of everything and told her I did so because I can’t trust her anymore. I have no intent of rolling things back to the way they were because that would be an act of stupidity on my part. I have a feeling that we don’t have the full story from this woman.

  21. Lion says:

    After my wife’s affair, I looked for advice from people online, and there were no shortage of people who said, “Just divorce her.” Like that’s easy or something. Most people don’t have a clue how a few circumstances can trap a person in marriage. Debt, upside-down mortgages, income disparities, disabilities, kids, kids with special needs, child support, alimony, personality type (he/she is evil, dangerous, manipulative, dishonest, and vindictive), etc., etc., can easily make divorce the non-option.

  22. jf12 says:

    Because feelings.

  23. Marc Pisco says:

    He sounds like a real swine. If she’s telling the truth he’s really treating her poorly. I wouldn’t tolerate a woman treating me that way, and I wouldn’t treat a woman that way either.

    Agreed, it’s not physical abuse, but women as well as men have a right not to be constantly treated with contempt in their own homes. Yes, there are kids, but they’re not hostages. This is not a no-brainer EPL scenario. He’s not too nice or too reliable, he’s mean.

    Dalrock, I’m not here to pick a fight, I just think this is not a standard frivorce thing where the man is a decent husband.

  24. TFH says:

    There are MEN advising her to take cash and prizes !!

    Alas…. and I thought the androsphere was making headway….

  25. Anonymous Reader says:

    Cail Corishev
    Don’t think that I’m trying to blame any of this on him. I’m not. I was mostly trying to head off any claims of, “See, he’s using Dread Game and it doesn’t work.” If he’s trying to use Dread Game, he doesn’t understand it or he doesn’t have the guts to follow through with it.

    A very good point.

    But I think it’s more likely that she’s worn down his ability to care, so he either blows her off or takes shots at her now and then to get back at her.

    From the outside, it could be difficult to determine if a man was running poor Dread game or was simply becoming more and more indifferent. And we must bear in mind we have at most one half of the story – at most one half, because she’s surely not telling all of her side accurately, there are bound to be exaggerations.

  26. Anonymous Reader says:

    TFH
    There are MEN advising her to take cash and prizes !!

    White Knights are still quite common.

    Alas…. and I thought the androsphere was making headway….

    Headway is being made. Bear in mind that much website traffic (bots excluded) is self-selected. What sort of male human is more likely to be drawn to that particular advice zone? Dalrock is the outlier, White Knights are much more likely to show up.

  27. vascularity777 says:

    @ Lion:
    Divorce is very difficult and heart wrenching when there is a child involved, especially a child with a disability. My divorce to my son’s mother was about 12 years ago. I did not want to get divorced due to my concern and love for my son. I credit our Creator for getting me through it all. At this point in time my circumstances are peaceful. I have my son about half time, he is doing very well at this point in time also. I live alone when my son is at his mother’s and enjoy working out and reading.

  28. Denise says:

    This is likely just as much a cautionary tale about choosing one’s mate well as anything else. Not all men are worth marrying. She now has to make the most of the situation.

  29. theasdgamer says:

    @Denise
    “She now has to make the most of the situation.”
    Sure. Divorce and she wins cash and prizes.

  30. Novaseeker says:

    insofar as we believe self-described conservatives could bear to read, if nothing else, the very first PAGE of the Communist Manifesto

    Blue —

    Actually many of us are quite familiar with Marx’s writings. My minor in college was in Russian history, and the focus of that was on the development of Marxist revolutionary ideologies and their impact on historical developments in Russia, from the German Marx himself through the Russian Marxist theorists of the 19th C. (like Georgi Plekhanov) up to, and including Lenin himself. Some of us actually lived in real communist countries before the Wall fell in ’89 and saw what that looked like in the end, and also what it made of people. Some of us also observed firsthand the left-wing academics of that age and their students shamelessly making excuse after excuse after excuse for these regimes at the time, even after having had these same experiences!! No, our views are often not based on ignorance, as much as is supposed by the current left, but by knowledge and experience, and in particular knowledge and experience of the intellectual left.

    (N.B. — I don’t say that for partisan reasons, really, because I don’t care much for either the political left or the political right under our system, or the system itself very much. I accept the label conservative insofar as it describes me as being “of the right” rather than “of the left”, but I’m not a partisan of the political conservatives or the political progressives in this system of ours.)

    Liberals who favor high taxes, equal rights, equality under the law, and who understand things like overseas outsourcing to be a turning of the back on one’s countryman in the name of all-powerful profit … they have families too, and they care about them.

    Actually from where I am sitting, they may care about “family” in an abstract sense, but they seem to be approaching that by means of broadening the definition of family beyond recognition, rather than shoring up the traditional model of family. It’s not really plausible to see the political left as being in favor of shoring up the traditional model of family, which is the model that Dalrock fairly openly advocates time and time again. It doesn’t seem like bedfellows can be made very easily out of that, to be honest.

  31. Bike Bubba says:

    I’m with those who note that it’s very striking how the woman doesn’t really mention why she’s so unhappy. It’s even more telling that nobody calls her on it. That’s the society we live in–complain, cut our losses, never talk with Mom or Grandma (assuming they’re living according to the Scriptures in this) and ask whether what’s gone on is worth blowing up your life.

    Ouch.

  32. And right on cue I see Kate Bollick links this:
    We can’t build our social system around marriage anymore
    http://familyinequality.wordpress.com/2013/06/04/living-without-marriage/

  33. vascularity777 says:

    @ Novaseeker:

    Did you take down your blog? I cannot get to it any longer.

  34. jf12 says:

    “He only talks to his family and friends on the phone when I’m not around.” “As opposed to me, whenever he’s around I instead talk to my family and my friends on the phone.”

  35. Novaseeker says:

    @ Novaseeker:

    Did you take down your blog? I cannot get to it any longer.

    I’m rejiggering it currently. It should be back up in a week or two once I get the time to sort it.

  36. Anonymous Reader says:

    Rollo, I’m almost tempted to create an Onion-like website “Better Homes and Grass Huts”, see how many links from the likes of Kate it could get.

    Vascularity777, I think Novaseeker forgot to pay his rent…

  37. deti says:

    @ Lion:

    ““Just divorce her.” Like that’s easy or something. Most people don’t have a clue how a few circumstances can trap a person in marriage.”

    Very true. That said, locking an adulterous wife (ex-wife?) out of the bank accounts and asset ownership for lack of trust is about the best that can be done. And though it’s true that one never knows what one will do when one is faced with an adulterous wife, and also true that one can be trapped, it’s very, very hard for a marriage to recover from wife cheating, simply because of the primary reason wives cheat. Usually when a wife cheats it’s because she doesn’t consider herself married to her husband anymore; and when a wife gets to that place physically and mentally, the marriage is usually not going to survive it.

    If yours has survived it, or you’re staying married for other reasons, I commend you. But locking her out of everything and returning to the relationship in its previous incarnation pre-affair isn’t an option, even if you remain de jure married.

  38. Stand Watie says:

    @ibb

    I’m guessing she is not on the bank account because if she was, should would empty it. This guy probably knows his wife and what she can handle (and what she can’t.) Some women are simply not responsible enough to manage a budget, to have a bank account, or even a credit card.

    Bingo. When my ex and I got married, we had a joint account. I asked one simple thing of her – when she wrote checks or paid for something using the debit card, record it in the register so that we have an idea how much money is in the bank. This did not happen, so after a few occasions of me spending money she had already spent and having the account overdrawn, I had her open her own account and I rationed money into it based on our financial resources.

    Down the road, when it all hit the fan, the separate account, me rationing her money, etc. all became emotional abuse, and it was my fault the account got overdrawn, because I wasn’t making enough money.

    The hamster can rationalize anything.

  39. 8to12 says:

    @theasdgamer says: “Sure. Divorce and she wins cash and prizes.”

    But money isn’t the only thing in life. As Dalrock pointed out, women who back away from divorce and stay with their husbands are happier down the road than women that go through with the divorce.

    Maybe we need some examples of different types of divorcees to hold up as stereotypes (with catchy names for each). Examples that will drive home the point that even with “cash and prizes” there are a lot of downsides to divorce for a woman.

    As long as women can’t imagine the long term downside to divorce, they aren’t going to avoid it.

  40. jf12 says:

    Re: cash and prizes. Society having made divorces, and therefore marriages, a cakewalk for women, they now get disgusted when they only win the yellow sheet cake with pink icing instead of the red velvet cake with valentine sprinkles they felt they truly deserved.

  41. WillBest says:

    If the part about him flirting with women in front of him is true, and that she has confronted him about it, then he isn’t on the up and up. Though she did not say she was available sexually to him, which means we can comfortably assume she isn’t.

    We also don’t know why her name isn’t on the bank account. Many women can’t be trusted with money. Don’t understand the concept of paying yourself first. So if the guy wants a 10% savings rate so he can retire sometime before he dies, he is going to need to significant control over such budgets when he is with women of this nature.

  42. vascularity777 says:

    @ Novaseeker:

    You indicated above that you studied Russian history. There is a part of Russian history that I want to understand. Would you be willing to email me? Perhaps you have my email from your blog, or perhaps Dalrock can forward it to you.

  43. Most people don’t have a clue how a few circumstances can trap a person in marriage. — Lion

    So true, especially the father when there are kids.

    I used to watch the show Hoarders, which was about people with extreme hoarding problems, often to the extent that their houses would become unlivable and dangerous. The hoarder was usually a woman, so if she was married this would make life difficult for her husband (if he still lived there) and children.

    I also discussed the show a bit on a forum, where most of the participants were A) women, and B) very liberal. Whenever a hoarding mother would cause unsafe conditions for her kids, these women would get incensed at the father, asking why he didn’t “do something” to protect his kids — even if they were divorced and he had no control over the house itself. They couldn’t understand why the dad wouldn’t just come in, take some pictures of the horrible conditions to prove his case, and sweep the kids away to safety.

    They seemed to have no awareness at all that the legal regime they support, which bends over backwards to give the mother the benefit of the doubt at every opportunity, would arrest and prosecute such a man for kidnapping and who knows what else. I guess when they look around and see that most children of divorce live with the mother, they just assume all the fathers were unfit or didn’t want their kids.

  44. Novaseeker says:

    vascularity —

    Sure, you can send an email to novaseeker at gmail dot com.

  45. sunshinemary says:

    In my field we call his treatment of you emotional and verbal abuse.

    Which is probably why the husband bailed out of counseling. Any minor boundary that a man might set with his wife is seen as abusive by the mental health industry.

    Having done some time in the marriage counseling trenches a number of years ago, I have to honestly admit that the three counselors we saw always tended to be biased toward my version of events. The last counselor we saw directly told me during an individual session to kick my husband out of the house but not divorce him so that I could still have him paying the bills. And this counselor was a Christian woman. And there was no physical abuse of any kind going on. I thought about her advice for awhile, and then decided that it was the counselors, not my husband, who needed to go.

    I would encourage people who have difficulties in their marriages to use extreme caution when it comes to bringing a mental health professional into your marriage.

  46. Novaseeker says:

    Vascularity777, I think Novaseeker forgot to pay his rent…

    I actually wanted to move it to a free host platform, which is why I let the name registration lapse.

  47. Sharrukin says:

    Lion says:

    It almost sounds like she did cheat on him which would explain a lot of what she doesn’t say.

    Counseling for what?

    What is his sister showing her husband from her Facebook?

    He doesn’t trust her going out with ‘friends’.

    He makes the point about her financial prospects.

    Private discussions with his family.

    He doesn’t trust her!

  48. TFH says:

    None of the women who think the current laws are just, because otherwise women would be ‘trapped in marriage’, think men should have anywhere near the same freedom to leave…

    This is why democracy does not work. Women are just too self-centered for democracy to work..

  49. John South says:

    jf12 says:
    February 14, 2014 at 1:46 pm
    “If a woman is whining to her friends how bad you are that means it’s working.” I knew there was something I was doing rong. All of her fakebooks still gush about my wonderfulnesses. I think it’s only me who hears about how divorceably I put the forks in the dishwasher.”

    She’s mad because you do dishes not how you do dishes.

  50. MarcusD says:

    I have to honestly admit that the three counselors we saw always tended to be biased toward my version of events.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/“Women_are_wonderful”_effect

    —-

    Somewhat related to the counselling industry:

    http://simulacral-legendarium.blogspot.ca/2014/02/dalrymple-and-more.html

  51. jf12 says:

    The more things change. What most attracted women to the Bolshevik cause during the civil war (1918-1921) was the promise of free love. Emancipated young women, encouraged by the mothers, flocked to cities and towns eager to do government busywork during the day and party down during the night, no longer chained to expectations of housekeeping for a lousy husband on a lousy farm. Naturally, however, farm production vanished already in the early 1920s as the farmboys staged their own hoedown, and many young women were forcibly returned to and detained at farm villages, often brutally “shared”. Despite many women, both urban and rural, personally having dozens of abortions, by some estimates there were ten million abandoned children, homeless, unwanted, not orphans per se, by the mid 20s, and the instant social disaster of the communist abolition of the family already began to be reversed. It had taken just a few years, but wrecked subsequent generations. The women STILL did not want to revert to being wives and mothers, and it took the heavy hand of Stalinization to cram the free love genie back into its bottle.

  52. By the way, add this to the growing pile of evidence that wives shouldn’t have their own social media accounts. (I’m not sure men should have them either, but if there’s a legitimate use for them, one account for the family to share should be enough.) She’s apparently posting things in public, and then getting upset when her sister-in-law points them out to him. So what are these things that she feels the need to share with the world, but doesn’t want him noticing? Probably nothing outright incriminating, but obviously not things that make her look like a respectful spouse either.

  53. SSM,

    The last counselor we saw directly told me during an individual session to kick my husband out of the house but not divorce him so that I could still have him paying the bills. And this counselor was a Christian woman. And there was no physical abuse of any kind going on. I thought about her advice for awhile, and then decided that it was the counselors, not my husband, who needed to go.

    There are some really bad marital counselors out there, ones who do not have enough sophisitication or expertise in areas of marital problems that are outside the scope of true abuse. As a result, their advise seems to boil down to very simplistic solutions because they can’t think outside the box.

    Not knowing her, I’m going to go out on a limb and say that your counsleor was trying te be your ally (in all things) by assuming that you simply wanted an excuse to nuke your husband (albeit, not nuke the marriage.) She also probably figured that you didn’t have sufficent earning power (without your husband’s income) to manage on your own if you truly divorced hiim and only got child support from HHG (but no alimony.) I do not know what the alimony laws are like in the state of Michigan. We all have to remember, all states are not as liberal on the alimony as California.

  54. vascularity777 says:

    “I would encourage people who have difficulties in their marriages to use extreme caution when it comes to bringing a mental health professional into your marriage.”

    This is outstanding advice. Another point here is that a therapist is considered expert testimony in court. So if you go for marital counseling, or any counseling, that “professional’s” opinion would carry much weight in court. Since pastors and therapists favor females, then men should really not partake in marital counseling if a divorce is a possibility.

  55. Stand Waite,

    Bingo. When my ex and I got married, we had a joint account. I asked one simple thing of her – when she wrote checks or paid for something using the debit card, record it in the register so that we have an idea how much money is in the bank. This did not happen, so after a few occasions of me spending money she had already spent and having the account overdrawn, I had her open her own account and I rationed money into it based on our financial resources.

    I tend to think this type of behavior tends to be a bigger problem with women who get married much younger. I know everyone on Dalrock’s and Mary’s keeps trying to push girls to get married younger (to avoid the cock carrosel) but I think the really young girls (who never had a checking account to pay their own bills for anything, never lived alone or were on a budget) tend to be less responsible about the register and almost never worry about how much money is in the bank. Afterall, they went right from living with daddy to living with hubby. What is a mortgage payment? What is the electric bill? I have to pay the cell phone bill every month? Dad always took care of that. lol!

    Couple that with the fact that women aren’t moral agents, and this type of behavior is often to be expected of wives.

  56. jf12 says:

    Re: social media. “His sister takes screen shots from my fb wall” because, Just Like A Man, he can’t be bothered to filter, so he logs on every other day to check scores and prices.

  57. Elspeth says:

    Afterall, they went right from living with daddy to living with hubby. What is a mortgage payment? What is the electric bill? I have to pay the cell phone bill every month? Dad always took care of that. lol!

    I married quite young (22) and I’d had a year of experience making and paying rent, utilities, car insurance, etc. It’s not unheard of.

    Our girls are being trained to manage any money they make while living at home. They pay their own cell bills. It’s not necessary for a girl to have done all of the things you list to appreciate the intricacies of a family budget. They don’t know because they aren’t taught.

    It’s just not a good idea for a young girl to be out racking up all kinds of “experiences” in order to be a good wife. You keep pushing that but the results are in. It’s a terrible idea which yields rotten fruit.

  58. Marriage counseling; a.k.a. last stop before toll.

  59. Dalrock says:

    @Marc Pisco

    He sounds like a real swine. If she’s telling the truth he’s really treating her poorly. I wouldn’t tolerate a woman treating me that way, and I wouldn’t treat a woman that way either.

    Agreed, it’s not physical abuse, but women as well as men have a right not to be constantly treated with contempt in their own homes. Yes, there are kids, but they’re not hostages. This is not a no-brainer EPL scenario. He’s not too nice or too reliable, he’s mean.

    Dalrock, I’m not here to pick a fight, I just think this is not a standard frivorce thing where the man is a decent husband.

    Welcome Marc.

    He certainly doesn’t come off well, but we can’t know if her characterization of him is accurate. This is her making the case to strangers that she would be right in divorcing. She is looking for the go ahead and this is the case that she made. With that in mind, it strikes me as pretty weak as far as frustrated wives go. I do have empathy for her, because she does seem sincerely frustrated with the present state of her marriage.

    But assuming it is an accurate picture, and just to understand where we either have common agreement or disagree, which of the following would you agree with:

    1) Her best chance to be happy is to divorce.
    2) His bad behavior frees her (morally) from her solemn vow to remain married for life, for better or for worse, etc. If so, which behavior of his frees her from her vows: Winking at the realtor? Not putting her on the bank account? Not taking her out enough? Failing to watch the kids on her birthday so she could go out with the girls?
    3) It is better for their children to grow up without a father than for her to remain married to him.
    4) Wives being legally and socially encouraged to threaten divorce makes modern marriage better than it was when wives didn’t have the threatpoint.

  60. I grew up in a family where the women did the day-to-day bookkeeping and money management, including for family businesses, and they were sensible and frugal about it. Yes, even if they married young. I assumed my own wife someday would do the same, and I wouldn’t have to mess with stuff like the household budget. I got a rude awakening about how bad most women are with money — yes, even the older ones. Nothing to do with age, as far as I can tell; it’s generational (and probably partly cultural; in farm country where the man might work in the fields from sunup to sundown, he really doesn’t have time to go get the groceries too). It’s yet another one of those things that mothers used to pass on to their daughters so they’d be prepared to be good housewives, which had to stop thanks to feminism.

  61. Anonymous Reader says:

    IBB blathers
    Couple that with the fact that women aren’t moral agents, and this type of behavior is often to be expected of wives.

    Earlier on this site you claimed to agree with the blank slate theory, i.e. that nurture is all and nature is nothing. Your repeated assertion that women are not moral agents is contradictory with that claim, because if women are blank slates then they can be trained to be anything, whereas if they are incapable of being moral agents they are not blank slates.

    Your repeated assertion that women should not marry younger than 25 has been repeatedly refuted as well. It is one thing to hold an opinion that is contradictory to fact and logic, it is quite another to be either unwilling, or unable, to defend that opinion.

    Personally, I am beginning to suspect that multiple persons operate the IBB comment account. This would explain some of the contradictions, as well as some of the “forgetfulness” that has been seen.

  62. @SSM
    http://therationalmale.com/2011/10/17/indignation/

    Women need indignation. Watch one episode of ‘Dance Moms‘ and you’ll get a much clearer picture of the value indignation holds for women. Whether the source is gossip, living vicariously through third parties or eating it up in popular media (Oprah, Tyra Banks, romance / fan fiction media), in the absence of indignation, women will actively manufacture it for themselves. A lot of men believe that this need for indignation is the calling card of a “high drama” woman when in fact it’s really psychological predisposition for women.

    One reason I think you got the ‘advice’ you did, as well as the reason most men feel like they get a raw deal or the female counselor is against them is because any even marginal ‘injustice’ against the wife is a source of the ‘rush’ women get from vicarious indignation.

  63. Anonymous Reader says:

    Cail Corishev
    I grew up in a family where the women did the day-to-day bookkeeping and money management, including for family businesses, and they were sensible and frugal about it. Yes, even if they married young. I assumed my own wife someday would do the same, and I wouldn’t have to mess with stuff like the household budget. I got a rude awakening about how bad most women are with money — yes, even the older ones.

    It is a combination of learned and innate behavior. Some people are frugal, or even cheap, by nature and can save for a goal even when as young as 8 years of age. Some people never learn to manage money, and need someone to give them an allowance even in their 60’s. I’ve seen both in my extended family. That said, people can be taught to manage money and stick to a budget if they are taught that it is a serious matter. The easy money of the last N years (pick a number – 10, 20, 40, whatever) culturally along with ever expanding debt terms has made it a bit more difficult to teach thrift to anyone who spends too much time embedded in the popular culture.

    Like baking a cake, budgeting can be done by anyone with basic tools and ability to follow instructions. Of course, a whole lot of people can’t bake cakes anymore, either…

  64. It’s just not a good idea for a young girl to be out racking up all kinds of “experiences” in order to be a good wife. You keep pushing that but the results are in. It’s a terrible idea which yields rotten fruit.

    There is probably a lot of truth to that Elspeth. I’ll be the first to admit that some of these “experiences” leave our ladies quite jaded. I think I even made mention of that to my daughter this very morning.

    Problem is, our world is not so simple as people try to make things out to be. We are simple people, that much is true. But much is expected of us (living in the 1st world) to understand how we are supposed to live among one another. Trusting a spouse to handle a budget may be one of them and it is almost always essencial that you budgeted yourself (as a singleton) before you were responsible for a family.

    I’d be very curious ot know how old Stand Waite’s ex-wife was when he married and if she ever lived outside her father’s home prior to their wedding day.

  65. Marc, when you’ve observed enough of these scenarios, one thing that jumps out at you is what isn’t said. She’s clearly trying to get people to give her the go-ahead to divorce her husband. She’s also posting anonymously online, so she doesn’t have to hold anything back. She’s naturally going to list his worst offenses. So does she claim any physical abuse, any infidelity beyond (she claims) a wink that happened right in front of her? Even any yelling or name-calling? Is he a bad father, an alcoholic, an inveterate gambler, a porn hound? No, nothing like that. Just a general sense that he doesn’t seem to want to spend time with her or talk to her. He “has an attitude,” which means he doesn’t do what she wants anymore. He bailed out of counseling, which we all know is usually just husband-bashing and setting him up for the inevitable divorce. He might be trying to hide some money from her, which probably means he’s caught wind of her plans and is trying to protect himself.

    You know what usually causes a man not to want to spend time with a woman he once wanted badly enough to marry her? Two main things: nagging and sexual withdrawal. If she stops the sex, that takes away the main reason he wanted to chain her to him permanently in the first place, but if she still has a pleasant personality and treats him well otherwise, he’ll probably live with it. But if she starts nagging at him, tearing him down, second-guessing him, belittling him, being disloyal (I’m guessing the stuff she posted on Facebook that her sister-in-law passed along was all of those, but especially disloyal), that’s the one thing that can really destroy his affection for her and his desire to spend time with her at all.

    The point is, even if everything she says is true, it didn’t happen in a vacuum. He didn’t say “I do” and then start blowing off plans with her and winking at realtors. It takes a while to move a man from, “I can’t believe she’s mine now,” to, “I wish she’d just go away.” I’m not saying he’s blameless, but her own words describe a situation that just doesn’t happen without plenty of bad behavior on her part, whether she mentioned it or not.

  66. Anonymous Reader says:

    Cail Corishev
    By the way, add this to the growing pile of evidence that wives shouldn’t have their own social media accounts. (I’m not sure men should have them either, but if there’s a legitimate use for them, one account for the family to share should be enough.)

    The same goes for minors, especially girls and young women. Social media lends itself far too easily to the kind of backstabbing social aggression that girls tend to do naturally in their social circles [*] there is no need to turbocharge it.

    [*] I almost wrote “face to face” but of course some of the nastiest and meanest things girls do to each other is 2nd hand, behind the back, with just enough ambiguity to leave a “plausible denial” escape hatch.

  67. Curtis Strangelove III says:

    l8tr g8tr is one of the bitter middle-aged feminists who camp out at Marriage & Divorce. Beware of sheloves_dablues, BabeHart, and swbarnes2 as well.

    RobertRay, like Happy-2, is one of the nancy boy m@ginas there. You’re good enough at Y!A to be dangerous, Dalrock, so watch your six before people not like us start noticing.

  68. Dalrock says:

    @WillBest

    If the part about him flirting with women in front of him is true, and that she has confronted him about it, then he isn’t on the up and up. Though she did not say she was available sexually to him, which means we can comfortably assume she isn’t.

    I read this the other way. The subtext of her question strikes me as “Won’t somebody fix my jerky husband!”, not “Won’t somebody free me from being trapped married to a creepy/boring beta!” Note the frequent opportunities in her question to add on “And then he expects me to have sex with him!” and the total absence of such a complaint. She also doesn’t add “Like any woman would want him!” after complaining about him flirting with other women. At the same time, he doesn’t seem to be generating enough attraction to stop his actions from grating on her.

  69. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Odd thing. I can’t read the word ‘therapist’ without seeing a space in the middle.

  70. Anonymous Reader says:

    Odd thing. I can’t read the word ‘therapist’ without seeing a space in the middle.

    Where’s Fred Scuttle when we clearly need him?

  71. tz says:

    Bell is the perfect saint, ready for canonization, so it can’t be anything with her or her solipcism.

    Nowhere has she conceded she has done anything wrong, or even problematic.

    Perhaps I have this wrong, but (ask the marriage counselor), it appears she wants to meet at the 90% or 95%, if not 100% her way point.

    “I’m perfect and if he won’t do what I demand, I should leave him….”.

    Maybe not this, but I see no contrary evidence

  72. Sarah's Daughter says:

    Natural Alphas. Fun to get chased by, pains in the butt to be married to.

    She’s beyond her breaking point because he’s literally driving her nuts with insecurity and everything nasty that happens in a woman’s brain when she’s not in submission. He won’t have it. The beatings will continue until moral improves. He has an attitude (irrational self confidence), went to the counselor, said f*** that crap, and he teases her about her limited options. Treats her now like the piece he treated her before when she was excited about being with this kind of guy (nothing’s changed). He’s likely a little annoyed by her but mostly aloof and will do what he will do – get over it, sweetie. On and on her hamster spins. He’s got the favor of his sister (naturals naturally have other women’s approval), It’s unlikely that he can’t access her facebook account himself, he doesn’t care to. Sister is indignant (about her) and trying to create drama. He’ll appease this because he doesn’t care. Of course he looks at other women and winks at them – he could care less about them too, it’s just who he is.

    My advice to her is the same I’ve given other women married to naturals “he’s a very attractive guy, he won’t be alone long. Are you ready to see your kids with another woman? If not your only option is to get over it. You will not be satisfied divorcing him. His “I don’t care” attitude will continue with the divorce and it will be up to you to do everything. And, you won’t be free of him. His lifestyle and indifference to you having left him will literally drive you insane. Right now he’s all you can think about, he’s frustrating the crap out of you but it’s not like he’s changed. This is who you married, you choose this thinking he’d change for you…oops.”

  73. Phero says:

    She’s a batshit crazy bitch and he has just gone in “don’t give a Fuck” mode and maybe has started reading reading manosphere.

  74. Elspeth said:
    It’s not necessary for a girl to have done all of the things you list to appreciate the intricacies of a family budget. They don’t know because they aren’t taught.

    It’s just not a good idea for a young girl to be out racking up all kinds of “experiences” in order to be a good wife.

    Right and right.

    They are not raised, during the precious few child & adolescent years, to know how to manage a budget or a house….but they could be, as I know a few homeschoolers that have these skills. Trying to reintroduce Home Economics back into the mainstream for girls, however…not gonna happen with the Feminist Banshees still in flight.

    And don’t we understand yet that females need to be molded? Sure, women are adaptable, flexible and adjustable, but that means that stability and consistency shall ne’er be their strong suits. Much better to marry her off young, and let her learn how to adapt to her husband, and not only will she bond with him better, she also won’t burn up her youth on the carousel or get brainwashed by the Sirens of “Career First.”

  75. embracing reality says:

    Pronouncing the husband in question an ‘alpha’ much less a natural is quite a stretch. We can’t decipher much more than the obvious from her post but the man’s attitude smacks of ‘don’t really give much of a f*** anymore’ to me. I’ve see the most emasculated, beta, innocuous looking chumps imaginable finally snap out of it after decades of worshipping their queen. It’s truly a beautiful thing to see! Likewise I’ve seen true alpha, apex males get their asses nailed to the barn door by their wife, her shyster lawyer and the family courts. Any true alpha male is only going to marry an exceptionally attractive women, if he marries at all. Unless she’s become hopelessly morbidly obese she’s got ALL the power in this situation. That happened when he said “I Do”. If she’s attractive, or can soon get that way, she’ll be getting attention regardless and the courts will prop her up on his income (and mine as a taxpayer in necessary). This guy regardless of his social standing is destined to be living in his car soon enough.

  76. Cail,

    This comment was outstanding. I don’t even have anything to add to it, it’s pretty much exactly what I was thinking:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2014/02/14/it-would-be-immoral-not-to-blow-up-her-family/#comment-109704

  77. Andrew says:

    Cautiously Pessimistic on February 14, 2014 at 6:13 pm
    “Odd thing. I can’t read the word ‘therapist’ without seeing a space in the middle.”

    Couldn’t have said it better myself. Good one!

  78. oblivion says:

    is it just me, or is the manosphere really starting as a movement? In the last 2 years I have seen most of the really blatant man hating articles around the web being blown apart by men. I dont know if you all see it, but we are being pointed in a direction of direct involvement against the tempest of the feminime imparative. things are starting to change slowly but surely. I dont know about the rest of you, but ive been dropping red pills all over the place. the feminist frame is starting to crumble due to the fact that its foundations were built on sand. It really took me about 2 years to digest the red pill, but once you do, the reality of society opens up to you. I believe that most of the problems of the world are just symtoms of the breakdown of the family unit due to gender misunderstanding. the family is no different in its operating structure than a simple battery. there must be a positive and negative charge that creates the energy to run the unit. woman becoming men, and men becoming woman makes for a very weak charge. this very weak charge will replicate and in future generations will cause the collapse of the attraction that created the energy nessesary in the first place to move things forward. (progress) this is my jumbled 2 cents. my question to all is how many licks are u willing to take for the commen good of all. Many men have ideals, but when the great storm comes, who has the balls to stick to their guns? Those have had the biggest balls have always won. it really will only take 20% of men with our viewpoint to make society a healthy functioning place. I live in florida, divorce reform nearly passed last year, if we as a movement made the leap to change divorce in florida this year, the rest of the country would fall like dominos. please take this post with a grain of salt. florida is currently the ripest field in america to reap our results.

  79. MarcusD says:

    Yes, Happy St. Valentine’s Day…

  80. earl says:

    “Anyone esle suspect this woman has a replacement male ALREADY picked out?”

    Yes.

  81. Pronouncing the husband in question an ‘alpha’ much less a natural is quite a stretch.

    It’s interesting that some of us are reading it that way: he’s a natural alpha and she’s frustrated yet still attracted to him and trying to fix it. My take was that she’s already checked out and planning her exit, and that any “alpha-ness” he’s displaying that might give her second thoughts is the indifference resulting from him having given up on trying to please her. A difference in where we’re coming from with our own experiences, I guess.

  82. even marginal ‘injustice’ against the wife is a source of the ‘rush’ women get from vicarious indignation.

    Hello vicarious empathy (you have to think that through a bit to extract what is not redundant from it)

  83. Donna Sposata diMaria says:

    @Cail: “I can’t believe she’s mine now,”

    Statements like these, in the context of trying to understand these concepts in general within my own marriage, do something to me that I can’t explain. They catch me by surprise. I agree with you all that displays of weakness in a man can really wreak havoc on a woman’s feelings, but there’s something else here I’m wanting to articulate and just can’t, maybe because I’m not used to talking about such things on your terms (and maybe I really just don’t “get it.”)

    There’s a kind of “weakness,” I guess, in a statement like that. But there’s also something about it that is highly, highly desirable, in a way that takes my breath away, actually makes me kind of all soft and weepy. greyghost’s statement a couple threads ago, “the nice guy who actually gives a damn about you gets left behind” struck me the same way. And Elspeth’s story, “Never leave an opening for another woman to give your husband what you should be giving him.”

    I wish I could articulate what it means to me. I keep thinking you all (heh, or more likely I) might be missing something really important. It has something to do with the way a woman frames things within her own mind, and how that affects her own level of attraction. Knocking down defenses, maybe, defenses that ought not to be there.

    Bah!

  84. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    “I can’t believe she’s mine now,”

    @DSdM- At a guess, I’d say you’re repelled by the weakness of the statement, and attracted to its possessiveness. And, depending on your background, you’re also repelled by its possessiveness because strongnindependent. But that’s just a guess.

  85. Its been alluded to. You cannot take these things at face value. The departure into whether the guy is a natural alpha or not is a waste of time, and in fact is just another form of vicarious feeling seeking especially when its women making that leap of conjecture. Women would actually get a mush more efficacious boost out of the story if they include the assumption the guy is an aloof alpha.

    Return to the first point. We the readers have no idea if any of her story is true. Therefore, we cannot discern anything about whether the guy is an aloof alpha or a whimpering beta. There is no profit in guessing. But even men get some kind of boost out of imagining the guy as an aloof alpha. None of these reactions are conducive to attempting to help the woman, not that helping the woman is a first principle when commenting here about whats happening there….I get that.

    There is a marriage at stake. Ostensibly…..we care about that. So lets at least try to not get our own emoto-boost from it.

    When I was in the morass of CF, I watched this play out maybe hundreds of times. Woman posts something like that. Women roundly recommend divorce, women start recruiting for fellow abuse victims, “do you know, sweety, that that is abuse?” And men started white knighting. I would quiz the women. More often than not the gentlest challenge to her story would send her away, or get her bent up and cyber crying, It would end most times evident the story was not accurate, and I’d receive a warning from the mods saying the site was for helping, not rebuking.

  86. Donna Sposata diMaria says:

    @Cautiously Pessimistic: Was that response intended to be a dig? I really am trying to comment in good faith here!

    I’m not repelled by it *at all*. That’s my point. If what you’re saying about game is absolutely true, I *should* be repelled by it, but instead it makes me feel … I don’t know, exactly, except it’s not negative. It’s certainly not anything that you could call repelled. The closest I can get to it is “soft,” and surprised, and maybe even a little sad, tinged with regret. Like, when I think of my husband thinking such a thing, it melts my defenses (makes me “catch my breath”). And I know he *does* think that way.

    I’m thinking it’s the kind of thing that can turn a woman’s head around. In a good way. Dalrock’s response to the woman at Yahoo (or maybe another woman reading that post), if it catches her sufficiently off-guard, could have a similar effect.

    I wish I could express what I’m thinking better than that.

  87. jf12 says:

    @DSd “But there’s also something about it that is highly, highly desirable, in a way that takes my breath away, actually makes me kind of all soft and weepy” You’re a good woman, that’s why. No matter what they all say about you.

  88. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Was that response intended to be a dig? I really am trying to comment in good faith here!

    Nope, not a dig. I honestly don’t know much about you, which is why I said “depending on your background”. Several women I’ve known were naturally attracted to things they had been taught to be repelled by. A sense of being ‘owned’ by their man is one of those things. You’re saying that’s not the case with you, and I’m not going to argue that it is, because I don’t know about you specifically.

  89. jf12 says:

    “I wish I could express what I’m thinking better than that.” There’s a single German word, but it’s really really long.

    Hegelian philosophy might help you in the organization, or rather the taxonomical nomenclature (alas! how short are English words!), which I can discern is what you really want, of your thoughts.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Master%E2%80%93slave_dialectic
    Of course there are plenty of other philosophies of recognizing selves, but Hegel is the place to start.

    More generally, literary theory is the study of how what you read (and write, of course) affects you, especially because of the actions and reactions of characters in the stories.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Literary_theory
    As a nonphilosophical, actually phenomenological, system of knowledge, I would have to recommend you delving into literary theory at your leisure. This is the field of which my ex-wife was the apex predator, and there’s eventually no there there, even though it’s great at the beginning.

  90. Donna, it may be hard to express it because feminism took away the vocabulary.

    Of course, like most things in this category, expressions like that from a man are best used sparingly. Said (or shown) once in a while with the right frame, they can take a woman’s breath away. Said constantly, they can make the man seem needy and drive her away.

  91. Bucho says:

    Don’t understand the concept of paying yourself first. So if the guy wants a 10% savings rate so he can retire sometime before he dies, he is going to need to significant control over such budgets when he is with women of this nature. – WillBest

    Lots of people don’t understand this. She probably sees the money in the bank account and and doesn’t realize the time and effort he has put into earning that money. He would rather save that money than spend it on constantly redecorating. She may say he needs to work harder and earn more, but then would complain that he spends all his time at work.

  92. Boxer says:

    I admire you guys who try to talk these people off the cliff. I get extremely depressed and somewhat anxious reading the Divorce forum on Yahoo. I guess it’s a hangup stemming from my own childhood experience.

    People who divorce when their children are young do lasting damage to themselves, and to everyone around them. I’m convinced that the process would be a lot less common if people thought through these sorts of decisions with an appreciation of the actual consequences.

  93. Opus says:

    @Boxer

    I am not so sure. As a young adolescent, I prayed for my parents to divorce – the atmosphere in their home being so antagonistic – and that I could live alone with my Mother, my Father being an emotionally sadistic bully, who back-stabbed even as he presented himself to the world as ones saviour. I have had no reason to change my youthful view – in fact matters only got worse as time passed.

    Whether I might have done better as an offspring of divorced parents I cannot say but I can certainly attest to how my own life was sabotaged (you don’t want or need to hear how).

  94. Dalrock says:

    @Donna Sposata diMaria

    Statements like these, in the context of trying to understand these concepts in general within my own marriage, do something to me that I can’t explain. They catch me by surprise. I agree with you all that displays of weakness in a man can really wreak havoc on a woman’s feelings, but there’s something else here I’m wanting to articulate and just can’t, maybe because I’m not used to talking about such things on your terms (and maybe I really just don’t “get it.”)

    There’s a kind of “weakness,” I guess, in a statement like that. But there’s also something about it that is highly, highly desirable, in a way that takes my breath away, actually makes me kind of all soft and weepy. greyghost’s statement a couple threads ago, “the nice guy who actually gives a damn about you gets left behind” struck me the same way. And Elspeth’s story, “Never leave an opening for another woman to give your husband what you should be giving him.”

    I wish I could articulate what it means to me. I keep thinking you all (heh, or more likely I) might be missing something really important. It has something to do with the way a woman frames things within her own mind, and how that affects her own level of attraction. Knocking down defenses, maybe, defenses that ought not to be there.

    I think I know what you are getting at. The power is in the paradox, the contrast/contradiction. The overwhelming desire of a woman to be possessed despite her fear of becoming “trapped”. The desire for a man who is simultaneously a hero, her hero and yet somehow vulnerable. Does the video I posted here touch on what you are getting at?

  95. jf12 says:

    Re: velvet fist in iron glove = good, iron fist in a velvet glove = bad

  96. Desiderius says:

    Donna,

    “@Cail: ‘I can’t believe she’s mine now,’

    Statements like these, in the context of trying to understand these concepts in general within my own marriage, do something to me that I can’t explain. They catch me by surprise. I agree with you all that displays of weakness in a man can really wreak havoc on a woman’s feelings, but there’s something else here I’m wanting to articulate and just can’t, maybe because I’m not used to talking about such things on your terms (and maybe I really just don’t “get it.”)

    There’s a kind of “weakness,” I guess, in a statement like that. But there’s also something about it that is highly, highly desirable, in a way that takes my breath away, actually makes me kind of all soft and weepy. greyghost’s statement a couple threads ago, “the nice guy who actually gives a damn about you gets left behind” struck me the same way.”

    This is known as pedestalization, and millions of men have been raised to employ that strategy (in order to produce the reaction you note, which they mistake for the all-hallowed “love” that is the prerequisite for anything morally valid that he might wish to follow – marriage, family, etc…)

    That’s the blue pill in a nutshell. And its not only men who suffer from it. Millions of young women, including most of the ones who otherwise would have made the best wives and mothers, have constrained themselves to this blue-pill “love” as well, and thus have ended up slumming with a succession of herbs whom they do not truly respect and thus to whom they are not truly attracted.

    The divorce industry thrives on awakening these women to the falseness of the foundations of their marriages. Though the cure is worse than the disease, the diagnosis does contain an element of truth. Better to awaken all to these truths before vows are made that are destructive to break.

  97. Desiderius says:

    Dalrock’s comment focused on the “she’s mine”, I’m more addressing the “can’t believe”.

    Successful Boomer men love to talk all the time about their wives being too good for them, how they can’t believe how lucky they are, etc… It’s a form of humblebragging, their wives know its bullshit and/or it would stop immediately if they quit holding up their end of the bargain.

    Younger women take such statements at face value and are more inclined to test the limits on holding up their end. Younger men are more likely to offer them at face value, and to continue making such statements whether the wife merits them or not (brave face territory).

    if these women have been put on a pedestal since birth, and many have, such unconditional submission will seem pleasantly familiar, but it will still be instinctively unattractive and thus not function as the magic pill the young men are expecting it to be (as they saw it working for the older men).

    This phenomenon is not limited to relationships/marriages. Note how the naked pandering to women of the 2012 RNC was such an abject flop.

  98. Dalrock’s comment focused on the “she’s mine”, I’m more addressing the “can’t believe”.

    Exactly. I threw that comment in without much thought, but it all depends on whether the man’s focus is on the possessive side of it or the “I got lucky” side. A certain amount of both is probably healthy, but too much of the “lucky” without enough of the possessive will lead to her taking him for granted and feeling like he doesn’t deserve her — after all, he says so!

    Ultimately, a woman wants to be possessed by the man she’s crazy about. If she’s not crazy about him, then any possessiveness just irritates her. If she’s crazy about him, he can call her in the middle of the day and command her to take her panties off so she’ll be ready when he gets home, and she’ll love it. If she’s not, he’s more likely to get, “Why do you keep calling here? Are you checking up on me? My therapist says that’s controlling behavior, and you’re abusing me.”

  99. Desiderius says:

    “Why do you keep calling here? Are you checking up on me? My therapist says that’s controlling behavior, and you’re abusing me.”

    Heh, most therapists are glorified astrologers. The therapist knows intuitively that it’s the calling all the time that’s a turn-off, so she provides a rationale for what she already knows the patient is likely feeling.

    BTW, 90% of game for me was the decision, and that’s all it was, to go from can’t believe to believe. The sale assumed was soon made. Sola fide indeed.

  100. MarcusD says:

    Heh, most therapists are glorified astrologers. The therapist knows intuitively that it’s the calling all the time that’s a turn-off, so she provides a rationale for what she already knows the patient is likely feeling.

    Part of me thinks it’s just cover to justify getting rid of the guy.

  101. freeman says:

    While much of this has already been illustrated, the woman’s testimony of events is pretty telling. I’d like to be sympathetic to her situation, but her version of events leave me extremely skeptical. The first thing that strikes me is her inability to admit any problems with her. Normally, people will try to keep an open mind and see things from the other perspective when attempting to resolve the situation.

    I think a lot of her complaints could also be resolved on her own. If he doesn’t give her any money, then perhaps she could find a part-time job. If he doesn’t give her enough attention and try to make her happy, maybe she should try her best to please him and connect with him. A lot of women I’ve met think that by simply having a vagina, they are entitled to the perfect man. The only women I’ve wanted to spend time with and treat well were ones that were pleasant to be around and wanted to please me.

  102. Therapists are no different from everyone else, like all those except Dalrock who responded to her: if a woman is unhappy, it’s a man’s fault. She blamed all their problems on him, without even tossing in a “I’m not perfect” for a little bit of balance, and not one other person challenged her on it. Therapists make the same assumption: there’s a woman here who’s crying, who honestly seems like she wants this marriage to work, and says she’s tried her best. She’s probably also picked up some of the vocabulary from daytime talk shows and magazines, so she knows how to use the buzzwords that the therapist will pick up on, like “emotionally unavailable.” The therapist buys it like everyone else.

    I’ve known one counselor who seemed to recognize women could be at fault at least as much as men. She was a nun.

  103. Desiderius says:

    “She was a nun.”

    Hence the Weinstein hit-job Philomena. Walked out at the “evil is good” line. Packed house, BTW.

  104. jf12 says:

    The female hierarchy is topped by whom? The sahm with 19 kids and counting? The bishop’s wife?The soccer mom with two kids from her first marriage and one baby from her current marriage? The aging grandmother of several young doctors who heads a lot of charities? The one with the best purse and shoes?

  105. feeriker says:

    She may say he needs to work harder and earn more, but then would complain that he spends all his time at work.

    Yep. Another example of how most women grasp neither cause and effect nor economics.

  106. Better to awaken all to these truths before vows are made that are destructive to break.

    Not so much, because this suggests something that forms the basis of much of what passes as serious anti-divorce discourse.
    Its not divorce thats the problem, its sin, if we could stop sinning against each other we’d have no issues
    Its not divorce, its that people dont know how to treat each other
    Etc.

    These and your statement are true, and lack any utility whatsoever. The truths don’t even exist until later. It’s staying married with those truths that’s at issue.
    The one definite divorce prevention remark that is 100% useful is that, there is no divorce that is never filed. Filing a divorce is 100% efficacious in causing divorce, not filing is 100% efficacious in preventing one. Beyond that, there are no solutions that are absolute and cut/dry.

  107. She was a nun

    I met one too, she was a man.

  108. Anonymous says:

    Cautiously Pessimistic: “Odd thing. I can’t read the word ‘therapist’ without seeing a space in the middle.”

  109. Anonymous age 71 says:

    Interesting. I got confused by a question about Stand Waites wife and how old she was. Turns out the poster is not Stand Waite, but Stand Watie, who was an American Indian and a Confederate General as well as a poster here. Learn something new every day.

  110. @Donna:
    I’m not repelled by it *at all*. That’s my point. If what you’re saying about game is absolutely true, I *should* be repelled by it, but instead it makes me feel … I don’t know, exactly, except it’s not negative. It’s certainly not anything that you could call repelled. The closest I can get to it is “soft,” and surprised, and maybe even a little sad, tinged with regret. Like, when I think of my husband thinking such a thing, it melts my defenses (makes me “catch my breath”). And I know he *does* think that way.

    What you’re feeling is perfectly normal, and actually is a part of Game…it’s just enough Beta flavor to keep a woman “soft” and “melted” by feeding her desire to be desire. Women want to be wanted, and nothing disarms then faster than feeling like a man longs for them:
    http://redpillpushers.wordpress.com/2013/11/18/quell-her-inner-war/

    However, men must realize that it’s just a TOUCH of Beta that’s needed; too much Beta in a relationship is like too much mustard on a sandwich…it will kill the whole thing.
    Also, your reactions have everything to do with your ovulation cycle; when you are ovulating and horny and your body is screaming “impregnate me!” you want the aloof dangerous Alpha to do so. When you’ve calmed down and dealt with the aftermath of Aunt Flo, you want the tenderness & dependability of a Beta. All women go through this and it’s totally normally.

    If, however, you became your husband’s *sole* focus, you’d soon be tired of him, and start screaming about “I wish I had a REAL man,” and you’d be cheating.

    So no worries. You’re normal.

  111. *Typo alert call the Grammar Police

  112. Stand Watie says:

    @IBB,

    Yes, when women marry young and go directly from the household they grew up in to their husbands, the issues you mention may arise. In fact, that was the case with my mother. However, she and my dad worked that out.

    Incidentally, my ex and I were nearly thirty when we married. She should have known better. Actually, I’m pretty sure she did, and the overdrawing the account was a passive-aggressive maneuver.

    @AA71

    Yeah, I’m an old guy. Last Confederate general to surrender. Look up my (fictional) relative Lone Watie too.

  113. Cane Caldo says:

    @Empath

    Not so much, because this suggests something that forms the basis of much of what passes as serious anti-divorce discourse.
    Its not divorce that’s the problem, its sin, if we could stop sinning against each other we’d have no issues
    Its not divorce, its that people dont know how to treat each other
    Etc.

    It’s simple, Empath. You see: Divorce isn’t sin, and divorce isn’t mistreating people…

  114. Luke says:

    Anonymous says:
    February 15, 2014 at 6:30 pm

    Pessimistic: “Odd thing. I can’t read the word ‘therapist’ without seeing a space in the middle.””

    Even better version over at tshirthell.com :

    “I take the “the” out of “psychotherapist.” :D

  115. Robert the Wise says:

    “Donna Sposata diMaria says:
    February 15, 2014 at 8:04 am

    @Cail: “I can’t believe she’s mine now,”

    Statements like these, in the context of trying to understand these concepts in general within my own marriage, do something to me that I can’t explain. They catch me by surprise. I agree with you all that displays of weakness in a man can really wreak havoc on a woman’s feelings, but there’s something else here I’m wanting to articulate and just can’t, maybe because I’m not used to talking about such things on your terms (and maybe I really just don’t “get it.”)

    There’s a kind of “weakness,” I guess, in a statement like that. But there’s also something about it that is highly, highly desirable, in a way that takes my breath away, actually makes me kind of all soft and weepy. greyghost’s statement a couple threads ago, “the nice guy who actually gives a damn about you gets left behind” struck me the same way. And Elspeth’s story, “Never leave an opening for another woman to give your husband what you should be giving him.”

    I wish I could articulate what it means to me. I keep thinking you all (heh, or more likely I) might be missing something really important. It has something to do with the way a woman frames things within her own mind, and how that affects her own level of attraction. Knocking down defenses, maybe, defenses that ought not to be there.”

    >snort of derision<

    Hah.

    Typical female. A woman knows nothing, not even herself.

    If a man says to his new bride, "I can't believe you're mine now," her first reaction will be a queasy realization that she married a beta (or "clingy", "needy", "creepy" guy ) , in other words, a human being with emotional needs like herself and not the romance novel cover boy she imagined him to be. This alone will have her thinking of divorce before she's finished digesting the wedding cake her father paid for.

    The reason Dummy has mixed feelings about "I can't believe you're mine," is because it implies in her her mind that she's so awesome/unique/desirable/etc. that a man would want her that badly and it feeds into the females solipsism, selfishness, and vanity. The idea of being wanted so badly that men, especially alphas, will do anything, even fight each other, to possess her is a primary, maybe THE primary female fantasy, as seen in Team Edward vs. Team Jacob (although in fairness, Jacob ends up as more of a Beta Orbiter who will do anything for the female because she's so awesome/unique/desirable,etc. Edward "wins" the hand of KStew, a Pyrrhic victory at best, while poor Jacob is left to molest their prepubescent daughter) and that's a female's primary sexual fantasy put on screen.

    See, it took me two seconds to figure out what Dummy's hamster is still in high gear over.

    After reading this, the usual harpies will bring the usual shaming language: bitter/gay/small penis/creep/loser,etc.

    Nope.

    I just wish I had known this when I was a teenager. ;D

  116. Donna Sposata diMaria says:

    @Dalrock — I checked out your link. Two reactions: (1) Impressively, there’s no aspect of this you guys apparently haven’t already thought of; and (2) You all really have a way of deflating a girl’s sincere internal experience! Yikes.

    I accept that there’s a delicate balance involved, though what I’m trying to say, at least in part, is that I believe I can have an impact on that if I understand what’s going on, allow my defenses to be overcome, and seek to react to it in a way that benefits my relationship with my husband.

    But I can’t live with the concept that I’m always being played, I’ll never see it coming, and there’s nothing I can do about it.

  117. jf12 says:

    @DSd “But I can’t live with the concept that I’m always being played, I’ll never see it coming, and there’s nothing I can do about it.” I get the same feelings when thinking about free will and predestination.

  118. You all really have a way of deflating a girl’s sincere internal experience! Yikes.

    Red Pill men no longer believe in “sincere” women. Those are unicorns.

    But I can’t live with the concept that I’m always being played, I’ll never see it coming, and there’s nothing I can do about it.

    This is what men live with all the time.

  119. Desiderius says:

    Robert the Unwise,

    “The reason Dummy”

    Inhospitable.

    Donna,

    “(2) You all really have a way of deflating a girl’s sincere internal experience! Yikes.”

    Experience is experience. If it was inflated, then deflated is good. In a man you already admire and are submitting to, an occasional statement of humble appreciation on his part should take your breath away, and in a good way.

    That’s not always, or even usually, the context in which such statements are currently made. They are often made in an attempt to get to that context, but that’s putting the cart before the horse.

    “allow my defenses to be overcome”

    Against most real threats, you husband is your first line of defense. There are forces who would attempt to turn you against him, leaving yourself, and your family, defenseless.

    “But I can’t live with the concept that I’m always being played, I’ll never see it coming, and there’s nothing I can do about it.”

    Nor should you. None of that is true, and you know it.

  120. Desiderius says:

    “It’s simple, Empath. You see: Divorce isn’t sin, and divorce isn’t mistreating people…”

    Heh, good spot. Divorce is the capstone sin, just as a body riven by HIV might die of a common cold. A church that has abandoned the cure of souls leaves sin running rampant.
    The original sin here is the mis-leading of youth as to the nature of attraction/love in violation of scriptural teaching.

  121. Dalrock says:

    @Donna

    You all really have a way of deflating a girl’s sincere internal experience! Yikes.

    I accept that there’s a delicate balance involved, though what I’m trying to say, at least in part, is that I believe I can have an impact on that if I understand what’s going on, allow my defenses to be overcome, and seek to react to it in a way that benefits my relationship with my husband.

    But I can’t live with the concept that I’m always being played, I’ll never see it coming, and there’s nothing I can do about it.

    Desiderius already covered this well, but I’ll just add not to make the mistake of assuming your husband is a miser. There is a general critique of married Game that “They just want to manipulate their wives into having sex!” The irony being that the objection itself is extremely miserly, because the accusation is that the husband wants to entice his wife into the marriage bed, to make it something she desires, instead of merely expecting her to honor her marriage vows (which leads to an even more hysterical set of accusations). But even this is generally a false assumption, that husbands are merely looking for sex. If you look closely you will find that very often the discussion around married game is focused on leading their wife* in a way which is generally pleasurable to her.

    In that post I discussed why the scene has so much emotional power. Did I ruin movie watching forever for you? Can you no longer enjoy the power of that specific scene, knowing why it is so powerful? Would a movie maker who wanted to make his audience feel that way be suspect for studying the craft? If not, is there something less legitimate about a husband wanting to sweep his own wife off her feet and therefore setting out to learn how?

    *I’ve mentioned before that it is often overlooked that PUAs aren’t just misusing sex, but misusing romantic love as well. We could add to that misusing headship, since in their search to learn how to capitalize on the flood of casual sex on offer (with consent being the magic key and the new morality), they realized that leading a woman was essential. It is essential for a PUA because he wants to lead her to bed, but also because they found that for women submission is sexy. Modern Christians of course already knew that submission is sexy, they just have a cross-dressing fetish.

  122. Elspeth says:

    @ Donna

    On the story I told and the “can’t believe she’s mine”, etc.

    We have a marriage paradigm here where men are taught that they are “oh so lucky” to have their wives and women are taught that we are saints and/or martyrs for putting up with our men.

    I was never ever really able to go into my marriage with that mentality and it has been a blessing to us. To be sure, my husband appreciates me a great deal, feels blessed to have me and lets me know it.

    That said, I know, and he knows that I know that I was chosen by a man who had choices. In other words, he was a prize and I won. I treated him accordingly, as if I appreciate that he chose me and I am the fortunate one.

    This was all before Christianity informed the way we approached marriage, which was at least the first 8-10 years. Now we operate on a higher plane. But imagine if I had gone in the way many young wives do when I married him in 1994, and imagine if he had felt the need to be working to keep me happy.

    We might not be married today had we not both become devout believers.

  123. Donna Sposata diMaria says:

    The “always being played” part was more a reaction to those here who seem to be saying that if my husband fails at gaming me properly, I’m out the door. It’s just not so. I understand, I think, the value of game from your end; but I’m trying to come to terms with what that means *for me.* The defenses to which I referred meant the ones I unfairly construct toward my husband, and my own need to recognize what I’m doing and how that impacts how I feel toward him — so I can call it what it is (unfair and irrational, for starters — and fleeting, too, if I allow it to be). In entering this conversation with you, I’m trying not only to understand what this is all about, but more importantly (for me, anyway), to take responsibility for myself and my own reactions. Does that make more sense?

    Other than that, I agree with everything you and Desiderius said. Whether this is an appropriate venue for me to figure these things out is certainly debatable, and I’m leaning toward disappearing. But I really do appreciate your patient responses. Thank you.

  124. Michael says:

    That’s a wonderful answer Dalrock. It could not be more well written and provides a view nobody else will provide her.

    Although from the way she describes him i think he is pushing things to far and being a jerk and not cherishing his wife. However she is also likely exaggerating.

    But I must give Kudos to him for separating her from the finances. That is an extremely smart move. And get a load of the female marriage counselors response! For her, one of the most important issues she felt the need to point out in her reply was him not putting her on his bank account. That is actually one if the only things I think a man can do in this hostile environment today that is effective against being divorced. Make her think twice about who pays the bills. Keep her in a financially dependent state – for both her and most importantly the children. It will prevent her from driving the family into debt. Weather its that or an allowance, she will look to you for substinance. I speculate this is one of the few good things men actually have left to keep their marriages intact – and one of the first things the female marriage counselor points out as a problem.

  125. Dalrock says:

    @Donna

    The “always being played” part was more a reaction to those here who seem to be saying that if my husband fails at gaming me properly, I’m out the door. It’s just not so. I understand, I think, the value of game from your end; but I’m trying to come to terms with what that means *for me.* The defenses to which I referred meant the ones I unfairly construct toward my husband, and my own need to recognize what I’m doing and how that impacts how I feel toward him — so I can call it what it is (unfair and irrational, for starters — and fleeting, too, if I allow it to be). In entering this conversation with you, I’m trying not only to understand what this is all about, but more importantly (for me, anyway), to take responsibility for myself and my own reactions. Does that make more sense?

    Thanks for the clarification. I think we are very much on the same page. There are different perspectives on the husband’s responsibility for the wife’s attitude and behavior. Some err in my opinion towards laying the entire burden on the husband. This is unfair to both the husband and the wife. I’ve written my perspective on this here. You may also be interested in my wife’s experiences as I relayed them here.

    Other than that, I agree with everything you and Desiderius said. Whether this is an appropriate venue for me to figure these things out is certainly debatable, and I’m leaning toward disappearing. But I really do appreciate your patient responses. Thank you.

    You are certainly welcome here, and your questions are very much on topic. However, this place can be a bit rough around the edges as I’m sure you have noticed. I’ve done some tuning on this, but to some degree the roughness just comes with the territory.

  126. Boxer says:

    Greetings!

    The “always being played” part was more a reaction to those here who seem to be saying that if my husband fails at gaming me properly, I’m out the door.

    I think there are different interpretations of “gaming” and “out the door” that we can get lost in.

    “Game” to me, is just proficient flirting. There are aspects of game (dark triad stuff) that I don’t do, and wouldn’t do, because I consider that nonsense beneath me (I can admit that it probably works, but I still don’t do it); but the lexical use of the verb to indicate a sort of light-hearted interaction whereby a fellow initiates attraction — while keeping the conversation fun — is what I think the author meant.

    Likewise, “out the door” could indicate someone physically storming out on her way to the courthouse, to file the divorce action, or it could simply indicate a withdrawal from the protected emotional space that a couple would ideally find themselves enclosed by, during the time they’re involved in discourse. Being an asshole to one’s husband/wife would naturally lead to a sort of shut down, on his/her part, as he/she takes a defensive posture. That’s just human nature.

    I guess it’s as simple as “try not to be an asshole, or else the other person is going to close up and not be willing to connect to you”. This seems like common sense, but it can be tricky in a relationship.

    I think most people here would agree with you that both parties have a responsibility in a relationship, both to be open, and to facilitate the openness of the other party, to an authentic emotional and physical connection.

    Best, Boxer

  127. jf12 says:

    Re: resigned but loving. I wonder if one of the main reasons so many women file for divorce is transferred guilt over treating their resigned husbands so poorly. “Why does he keep taking it and taking it? Why? Why won’t he stop me? I’ll have to stop myself, somehow.”

  128. Desiderius says:

    Donna,

    “Whether this is an appropriate venue for me to figure these things out is certainly debatable”

    I’ve found that when my heart is open to the Spirit, she has a way of finding me wherever I am.

    He descended into Hell. On the third day He rose again. Venue is overrated.

    “However, this place can be a bit rough around the edges as I’m sure you have noticed.”

    She’s a grown woman, I’m sure she can handle herself. Rough around the edges beats too nice for truth to get a word in edgewise, not to mention Truth.

  129. Mulier says:

    @ Donna

    I know exactly what you mean, and I think you should be of very good cheer.

    I remain convinced that the happiest marriages are those between a blue-pill man and a red-pill woman. Let the man have his delusions and his occasional displays of weakness. It is very pleasant to be on a pedestal, isn’t it? I judge how well I am doing as a wife by how firmly I stand on the pedestal, no matter how little I deserve it. When I start to topple, it’s time to up the “girl game.”

    It is important to remember the principle that NAWAALT. Not all women are _always_ like that. This is obvious when you think about it, since if AWAALT then the red pill would be apparent no matter what cultural propaganda was laid on top. When my husband is weak, it doesn’t make me desire him sexually, but I do feel compassion for him. It is not fatal to the marriage. So a man need not game you all the time.

    And, now that you can be clear about what you like, you can give your husband just enough information to make both of you very happy. After I was married, my husband once asked permission to kiss me. I looked him straight in the eye and told him never to ask again. He was shocked, horrified, and amazed at his new power. Another time I pointed out to him that commanding me to do something sexual made me so much more interested in the act than asking. Again: shock, horror, and amazement.

    And so my husband thinks I am slightly kinky, and I enjoy all the benefits of the beta husband who can be alpha in bed.

    Also, remember that you can always run game on yourself. When I find myself irritated at my husband, I remind myself that I have submitted to him. To him, of all people! It rarely fails to work. If you do this enough, he does not need to bother to game you at all.

  130. theasdgamer says:

    @Mulier :) Mulier, I demand exclusivity, so you are going on a sex strike against your husband beginning now. And you are my sex slave; be ready for my call at any hour. Bring food and beverages when you come, Sugar. Make sure that your French maid’s outfit is ready for use! And you are forbidden to whine if you find foreign panties in the apartment. XD

    Is your reaction antagonism and excitement? Are you aware of your feelings and honest with yourself about them? When an attractive male invades the territory of a mammalian couple, the female finds it to be exciting, yet she joins her mate in driving off the invading male. If you don’t feel antagonism towards me, maybe there’s a problem in your marriage because your husband is too beta. Can you game that somehow?

  131. Desiderius says:

    Mulier,

    “I remind myself that I have submitted to him. To him, of all people!”

    Speak of the devil, and woot! there she is. Slum with that herb!

    This, ladies and gentlemen, is the model of love and marriage (in that order, as Dalrock notes) held up as the ideal by both the tradcon and PC powers-that-be in our culture (and thus their respective versions of Churchianity desperate to be “relevant” to that culture).

    Is it any wonder that young men aren’t signing up for that program? aren’t in your pews? supporting your candidates? applying for your colleges? studying for your classes? jumping through hoops to qualify for your jobs? borrowing your money? paying for your retirement? courting your daughters?

    Your daughters themselves, unlike Mulier, aren’t so anxious to see love and marriage as the perfect con, and they recognize that being married to a chump is little better than a man being married to a slut – a lousy foundation to start a family and liable to reflect on one’s own quality, so they go seeking true manliness wherever they can find it, often in the “bad (as in not following Churchian rules) boys”.

    No, the real “boys” are the few young males left still committed to being “good” in that culture’s rotten lights, lacking the courage to seek the good elsewhere. Young women know who the boys are, and the men.

  132. Mulier says:

    @ theasdgamer. Antagonism and disgust, tempered by the fact that you are joking. And a lot of anger at myself for having provoked that.

    My fidelity to my husband is very important to me. There would be little pleasure in the marriage for me if I was unfaithful–and it would be hard to respect him if he forgave me, sadly.

    Also, it is impossible for my husband to be so beta (or, in his worst moments, omega, for we have been through trials) that I cannot find a way to squeeze myself under him. So yes, I do think it is always possible to game oneself within the marriage. Perversely, the more difficulty the man is having, the stranger the satisfaction that can be had from it is.

    @ Desiderius. I’m not sure my tone conveyed. I was ridiculing my own indignant huff and how I get myself out of it. But yes, I do feel sorry for my husband, for being married to me. My goal is to make sure that he never has occasion to feel sorry for himself. Maybe you see him as a chump, but it’s the chumps who keep the world going, and I want his world, at least, to seem to him like the ideal that it isn’t. I can’t make myself a better person than I am, but I can make myself behave like a better person than I am.

  133. jf12 says:

    Re: “But yes, I do feel sorry for my husband, for being married to me.” I would bet most women usually feel like that. MWAULT.

  134. theasdgamer says:

    @Mulier
    Thanks for participating in my fact-finding exercise.

    Your response is as expected for someone who is pair-bonded–good for you. The humor-tempering shows that humor can add comfort and take the edge off. You had disgust because you don’t find me attractive–you obviously don’t like clumsy “players” and my convo was very clumsy. I’m a natural and didn’t use much convo when hunting decades ago, so I was out of my area of expertise. (More of a face-to-face guy. I don’t text. I’m not in the habit of flirting. And I have to redirect ladies’ attention off of me fairly frequently, so please excuse me for disgusting you with clumsy convo and being presumptuous in assuming attraction; the experiment was a failure because of invalid initial conditions.)

    This means that the exercise didn’t really check the attractiveness part of the equation. Maybe some guy whom you found attractive came onto you in the past at a time when you were _pair-bonded_ (you felt a strong bond to your husband or boyfriend). If so, can you tell us your feelings and how you behaved back then?

  135. Mulier says:

    @ jf12. I think you’re right, and I think that’s one origin of a lot of bad behavior. When you feel like a terrible person, there is a temptation to act really badly in response and/or to imagine that the other person must be even worse than you are.

    But I do think a woman can work toward more productive ways of dealing with this problem. If you say to yourself, “Yes, my looks are fading and I’m not a very nice person, but I can still do a lot of things to make my husband happy,” and then you do some of those things, then suddenly you feel less terrible and you begin a virtuous cycle.

    And for all of my many faults, I do love making my husband happy.

  136. Mulier says:

    @ theasdgamer. I have been hit on precisely once since I have been married. He was drunk and I did not find him attractive. Other times I may have noticed some kind of interest, but it has never escalated to anything improper. At this point in my SMV, I would be extremely surprised if a man came on to me. May my husband’s wife goggles never break!

    I did not have much experience before meeting my husband, but I did once try, very stupidly and immaturely, to make a boyfriend jealous by pointing out that another man had made a pass. My boyfriend replied that he would never have done that unless he spotted an opening, and so the boyfriend turned it back on me. I thought about it and he was absolutely right. It was a very useful lesson, and I have tried to never leave those kinds of openings once I got married.

  137. jf12 says:

    @Mulier “I do love making my husband happy.” That’s the best thing you can do. And if it ain’t broke then don’t fix it.

    All men cannot understand why so many (other) women refuse to find a nice beta and treat him as king. It is totally incomprehensible that so many (other) women would dirty their own nests so disgustingly.

  138. Marissa says:

    My boyfriend replied that he would never have done that unless he spotted an opening, and so the boyfriend turned it back on me.

    It’s true–the bitch shield is the best line of defense against unwanted attention. Taken women who leave themselves open for male attention know exactly what they’re doing. Yes, you need to err on the side of caution (not appearing too nice to a man, so what if it’s an ego drain to go unnoticed).

  139. Edwin says:

    I think the comments here make it pretty clear you guys just go out of your way to jump on the woman-blaming wagon.
    -Flirting with other women
    -Not talking to family/friend when she’s around
    -talking behind her back to her sister
    -him going out by himself but him not letting her do the same

    These are pretty specific, definite no-no’s in a marriage. Some of you had to go out of your way to add in that she left him sexually, but that isn’t in there. EVen if she did, his job as a husband should be to tell her this is a big deal, and that he considers it her leaving the marriage. There’s nothing “alpha” about behavior like this, in fact, it’s kind of passive agressive.

    I’m not agreeing that her jumping to divorce first is OK, but you guys are going completely the other way from the woman-is-always-right feminism of modern times. Can’t there just be an in the middle balance?

  140. hurting says:

    Cail Corishev says:
    February 15, 2014 at 2:49 pm

    The therapists propagate the narrative that men are to blame in the first place and give cover to the divorcing woman. Doubters should read up on the Duluth model; its genesis lies in the belief that men exert privilege and therefore are the only ones capable of making a marriage difficult.

    Marriage therapy is divorce therapy.

  141. Micha Elyi says:

    I’m not agreeing that her jumping to divorce first is OK, but you guys are going completely the other way from the woman-is-always-right feminism of modern times. Can’t there just be an in the middle balance?
    Edwin

    Honey, the men here do not have to provide “middle balance”. The men here are the balance. You didn’t notice Ms. Marriage-Counselor provide any balance, rather she put her thumb on the scale. You’ve also forgotten there’s zero evidence that Ms. Not-Haaaapy was scrupulous about balance as she told her side of the story. And where did she tell it, behind her man’s back. Any casual reader could see how the Yahoos were quick to embrace Ms. Not-Haaaapy in a big group hug and tell her what she was trolling to hear, that she’s a victim blah blah blah… her man is worse than she imagines blah blah blah… divorce!

    Marriage therapy is divorce therapy.
    hurting

    True. Edwin, wake up!

    Well, to provide some “middle balance” that’ll comfort Edwin I’ll add that just because over 99 out of 100 counselors are divorce hounds doesn’t mean we should hold that against the less than 1% who aren’t.

  142. Edwin says:

    Nope, sorry Micha,
    you guys are in fact not balanced. Nobody said that this chick’s complaints don’t have their problems, but I pointed out 4 really specific behaviors that she complained about that are also very marriage-disruptive

    You guys just jump up to go against the woman’s side, that isn’t balance.

    If this guy really is talking behind his wife’s back, flirting with other women (or trying to), going out without his wife and not letting her, those are very pussy, non-manly behaviors. I mean honestly, I’m gonna look at other women from time to time, but I’m not gonna lie about it to future Mrs. Edwin. She gets to swoon at George Clooney on his next stupid movie, why can’t I look. If she starts to get too pissy about it, I’m gonna tell her to cool it, and just let it be; I won’t be overtly gross or rude, and she won’t call me out on it every time I glance. Those are the rules. I’m pretty sure setting up rules is a pretty man thing to do. Not to just do whatever and ignore the wife.

  143. Matt says:

    I don’t think that there’s enough information to go on here about why she wants out. That said, if what she says is true, then her husband is a selfish ass. It’s not hard to watch the kids once in awhile so the wife can go out. Ogling other women in front of you wife is just boorish.

    If she’s just complaining about “I’m not happy”, then I have no sympathy for her. But this one seems to have legitimate reasons to be upset. I’m not saying it’s grounds for divorce, but it’s not going to be a pleasant, functional marriage if what she says is true and he is unwilling to sort himself out.

  144. theasdgamer says:

    @Edwin
    @Matt
    You guys seriously object to husbands flirting with other women in front of their wives? You are sooo blue pill. There can be excellent reasons to flirt. Same with wives flirting with men in front of their husbands.

    Flirting can build attraction and help pair-bonding. I’ve seen this in my parents’ generation and it has helped my marriage.

  145. Matt says:

    @theasdgamer
    I’m amused that you’re calling me “blue pill” for objecting to what this guy’s doing. I’m also curious if “blue pill” to you means anybody saying that women may have a point.

    That said, flirting can be used to increase attraction and interest. It can also be used maliciously to humiliate and degrade. That’s what I object to. That’s why I said that “ogling other women … is boorish”. While I don’t have enough information about this couple to make a definite judgement, if what she says is true (this is a big IF), then I’m inclined to believe that this guy’s flirting was not done playfully but maliciously.

    See, here’s my problem. While I’m extremely unlikely to champion a woman (they have said they can do it themselves), that does not mean I’m automatically going to take the man’s side. IF (and that’s a pretty big IF) what this woman says about her husband is true, then she does have actual reasons to be pissed off. I’m by no means saying that it should go to divorce, but something does need to be done because that is not a functional marriage.

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