The elevation of romantic love and the wisdom of a beta orbiter.

Since my last post I’ve poked around a bit on James Russell Lingerfelt’s blog love story from the male perspective.  The title of the blog itself gives a great deal away, starting with him referring to himself as a male and not a man.  The other striking feature of the blog is something I’ve written about before, which is the fundamental problem of elevating romantic love to a virtue.  As I explained in Lovestruck:

What nearly all modern Christians have done is place romantic love above marriage.  Instead of seeing marriage as the moral context to pursue romantic love and sex, romantic love is now seen as the moral place to experience sex and marriage.  This inversion is subtle enough that no one seems to have noticed, but if you look for it you will see it everywhere.

Indeed, the elevation of romantic love as a good in and of itself is something Lingerfelt argues with a passion in the few posts he authors himself, and it is implicit in his choice of content from other authors.  In his post Don’t apologize for loving someone – not ever Lingerfelt argues that offering unrequited romantic love is both wise and courageous:

We can love, love, love but sometimes that love isn’t returned. That’s not our fault. To love or not to love is a choice. We chose to love. They chose not to. This does not mean we are unloveable or unworthy of love. We’re not idiots, fools, or weak for loving. Rather, we have courage.

Whether chaste or not (it isn’t clear from what I have read), he argues from the moral and philosophical frame of the serial monogamist:

Because we chose to be vulnerable and self-sacrificing; a requirement for love. And when it was over, though the echoes of the painful experiences reverberate in the depths of our being, we picked ourselves up, dusted ourselves off, and we keep pressing onward.

Either way, misusing romantic love outside of marriage isn’t moral just because one decides not to misuse sex in the same way.  In fact, as Zippy Catholic explains in Women have harems too, the man who offers romantic love inappropriately is in some ways the male equivalent of a slut:

from an intersexual behavior standpoint, the male equivalent of a slut is the beta orbiter. Modernity has turned sexuality into a buffet: what used to be a loving commitment for life to a particular person, where sexual intimacy and provision formed the mutual society of a family, has turned into cafeteria sexuality wherein people are encouraged to assemble their ideal virtual mate from the disparate contributions of different real people. Like the slut who gives away her sexuality on the cheap, accepting sexual attention with no commitment or provision, the beta orbiter gives away his provision and commitment without any corresponding receptivity to his sexual attentions.

But Lingerfelt and countless others would turn the vice of misusing romantic love into a virtue.  In the same post Lingerfelt quotes from his novel The Mason Jar to make this case:

The following letter is from an eighty year old grandfather to his son, Clayton “Finn” Fincannon. After a relationship ends between he and his first love “Eden” during his senior year of college in California…

The use of a letter from a fictitious grandfather is a smart literary trick to package new age foolishness to seem like old school wisdom.  In the novel the letters are passed from grandfather to grandson via a mason jar on the grandfather’s desk.  Again, here we have more old school packaging literally surrounding and delivering new age ideas.  

In another post Lingerfelt offers a synopsis of the book, and it reads like a beta orbiter’s manifesto.  A character named Finn (bearing a striking resemblance to Lingerfelt’s own bio) falls deeply in love with a strong independent woman named Savannah and flies out to Colorado to meet her parents.  During that meeting this sudden love-of-his-life steps away to take a call, and from then on she is distant from him.  Shortly thereafter she breaks it off with Finn and returns to her abusive ex boyfriend.  The rest of the story are the painful adventures of a beta orbiter, and his grandfather’s wisdom never to stop being what Vox Day has dubbed a feelings slut:

Unable to shake away his experiences in Africa, coupled with his memories of Savannah, Finn writes a heart’s cry on paper, and leaves it in the Mason jar on his grandfather’s desk…

…grandfather [tells] Finn that if he continues pouring himself out in love for others, he will find the healing he seeks.

In the end Savannah decides that she isn’t attracted to Finn, but with the intervention of her own father on behalf of Finn Savannah decides to formally LJBF him.  Furthering my suspicions that this is an autobiographical story from Lingerfelt, in the book Finn also writes a book about Savannah which Savannah reads before deciding to LJBF him.

Not only does the book falsely elevate romantic love into a moral virtue, it confuses the sacrificial love a husband is instructed to offer to his wife with romantic love, and suggests that it is not only appropriate but wise for a Christian man to offer this sacrificial/romantic love to women (like Savannah) who aren’t his wife:

…Savannah explains to Finn that she is leaving him to reunite with an abusive ex-boyfriend.

Finn returns to the family farm that following weekend to clear his mind, where he and his grandfather have a lengthy conversation concerning sacrificial love.

While the plot device of wisdom from grandfather is an effective way to repackage foolish modern ideas as old school wisdom, the weakness in the device should be readily apparent.  While I certainly can imagine grandparents who have imbibed our culture’s foolishness and then state it as old time wisdom, imagining Finn as a wise grandfather passing the same advice along to a grandson is something else entirely.  Finn’s grandfather didn’t become a father and then grandfather by pining after career gal sluts, waiting for one of them to tire of hopping from one bad boy to the next to ultimately marry him.  Likewise, I can’t imagine Finn’s grandmother as said ex career gal slut, a woman who rode the carousel of alpha bad boys before ultimately realizing that she needed a man to put a ring on it.  While the plot device is effective, the world view it transmits has the effect of ensuring that those foolish enough to adopt it won’t be likely to find themselves the grandparents to a future generation, and if they are, they certainly won’t be seen as wise men and women whom future generations turn to for advice.

Edit:  From his page on The Mason Jar, the book is being made into a movie:

The Mason Jar feature film is scheduled for pre-production in 2015 and will be directed in the same dramatic and romantic tones as The Notebook (Ryan Gosling, Rachel McAdams, 2004) and Pride & Predjudice (Keira Knightley, Matthew Mcfadyen, 2005).

About these ads
This entry was posted in Beta Orbiter, Chivalry, Choice Addiction, Death of courtship, Feminine Imperative, Finding a Spouse, Foolishness, Marriage, Romantic Love. Bookmark the permalink.

366 Responses to The elevation of romantic love and the wisdom of a beta orbiter.

  1. donalgraeme says:

    Lingerfelt has turned “Romantic Love” into an Idol. He worships it rather than God now. Part of me wonders if all of his efforts are to turn others to idolatry, and offer himself up as an ideal high priest for this false religion.

  2. Anonymous Reader says:

    Bwah-hah-hah-hah! This is a very good analysis, Dalrock. Packaging modern nonsense as “wisdom from the grandfather” is not new, though. It has been popular in the past.

    However, there is significance to this particular form of propaganda. This claptrap likely sells, and so there is clearly a market for “wisdom from the grandfather”. That is good news, because the Boomers made a veritable fetish of rejecting any wisdom from anyone older than them (“Don’t trust anyone over 30″ for example). This is part and parcel of how we got where we are, from men’s-fault divorce, to making up your own marriage vows, to re-interpreting Bible verses in order to deflect legitimate criticism, to the Holy Electric Guitar Solo as a centerpiece of church services.

    If there truly is some degree of yearning for wisdom from the past, such that a market exists for “wisdom from grandfather” fiction, then there is an opening for actual wisdom. Not a movie version of Niomachean Ethics, to be sure, but still there is an opening for the true, genuine “wisdom from grandfather” and “wisdom from grandmother”.

  3. crowhill says:

    For a man who believes in traditional sexual morality (monogamy, sex only in marriage, etc.) offering romantic love outside of marriage is a cheat. It promises something you have no intention to deliver.

  4. Keith A. Young says:

    Romantic love is, by definition, silly – ‘silly’ (selig) being defined as what noble folks did to fend off boredom, when they didn’t have to work at something useful in their lives – look at the surviving literature from the Middle Ages, where ‘Courtly Love’ was the driving interest of the nobility … leading eventually to decadence & dependency.

  5. thegreatshebang says:

    I bought Rollo’s book and have received it. Congratulations on helping Rollo produce the work; he thanks you mightily.

    Also on his blog he made a small note that he will explore the idea of romantic love in the Beta as an idealized hopeful strategy beyond hope to maximize his limited opportunity with one woman.

    I argue that romantic love and the ideas of self-identity that create the Beta mindset are learned and modern and probably have little to do with pre-historic mating strategies.

    In my case, I have “unlearned” much of Beta thinking and I believe the manosphere is proof that many others can as well.

    However, the manosphere is necessary because many complex ideas such as Beta and romantic love are learned through exposure to culture and it takes the “hive-mind” and feedback from others to learn new ways of thinking.

  6. deti says:

    Marriage and the sacramental/sacrificial love from man to woman within it is supposed to provide a safe haven for the expression of romantic/sexual love.

    Sacrificial love acts, and does, and requires tending to remain viable. Romantic/sexual love feels, and exists.

    Sacrificial love builds and creates. Romantic love only seems to reinforce whatever structures it resides in, but can neither build nor create on its own. But, on its own without sacrifice, romantic love can destroy.

  7. As far as the beta orbiter goes, my feelings are…

    …men and women can’t be friends. I used to think that men and women could be friends but I know now, they just can’t. They aren’t friends. If a man and woman say they are just friends, at least one of them is lying, probably both. I might not know for sure which one is lying, but I know one of them is. And nothing good is going to come out of this scenario.

    If the man is always hanging around her as just her “friend” it is typically for one of three reasons: #1) he loves her and is just a beta orbiter irrationally hoping against hope that things will materialize into something much more than friends or #2) he is in love with one of HER friends, and he is hoping against hope that his unrequitted love will eventually be returned to him by her or worst of all #3) he know that SHE is in love WITH HIM and he allows her to hang around with him (as his friend) because he can use her (in someway, either devious or not.) Friends with benefits? LOL!

    In the above scenarios, #2 is not so bad. I certainly hope that most men who are letting their romantic love go to someone who is not their wife are doing it in this form because there is a chance that things might work out. #1 is real bad but #3 is the worst because it is damn sinful.

    If the woman is always hanging around him as just her “friend” it is typically for one of two reasons: #1) she is in love with him and irrationally hopes that someday her love for him will be returned or #2) she knows that he is in love with HER and she uses that love to get all sorts of husbandly honey-dos from him (can I haveborrow some money? my boyfriend is working today, can you help me move out of my apartment? my boyfriend’s car is in the shop, can you give me a ride to the airport? my boyfriend’s family is in town and we can’t let them know that I am living with him, can I crash at your place for a few days? etc.)

    Neither one of the above situations are good. They are both bad, albeit not equally bad. Either way, she needs to stop doing this.

    Dalrock, this was a great post, an excellent one. As a former foolish-beta-orbiter (when I was 20) who stopped doing that to become alpha, I loved it.

  8. Shebang beat me too it, but some bloggers have run me (and Deti) up the flagpole for suggesting that men love idealistically and women love opportunistically. If Lingerfelt’s blog isn’t idealism, I’d like to know what is.

    The reasoning always goes something like, “where are the hard facts on this male love idealism you preach of?”
    Right here:
    http://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00224545.2010.522626#.UlSZW2SgkkJ

    ABSTRACT
    A widely held belief exists that women are more romantic and tend to fall in love faster than men. Responses from 172 college students indicated that although both men and women believe that women will fall in love and say “I love you” first in a relationship, men reported falling in love earlier and expressing it earlier than women reported. Analyses also showed no sex differences in attitudinal responses to items about love and romance. These results indicate that women may not be the greater “fools for love” that society assumes and are consistent with the notion that a pragmatic and cautious view of love has adaptive significance for women.

  9. Pt says:

    Lingerfelt

  10. ShipShape says:

    My experience too, that *almost* no men and women can be just friends.
    One of them is orbiting, and one of them is taking advantage of the other’s hope for something more…

  11. earl says:

    Romantic love has been what has brainwashed the masses…from Disney movies to rom coms. Tales of men going through numerous hoops in the hopes of his struggle capturing the maiden.

    But when you think about it…when you take out God from society and that type of agape love…what other love is there to worship?

    Love God and love your neighbor as yourself has been turned into a man romantically loves a woman and that’s it.

  12. UK Fred says:

    @ Deti.
    Spot on, my man, spot on.

  13. According to my observations and experiences, women are much more pragmatic in their approach to relationships. Men are more romantic and idealistic. It appears to me that young men are learning, evidenced by young men not willing to marry as readily.

  14. Eva says:

    This website is crazy – not in a bad way, but a mind-blowing way. Im a woman, but I feel like Ive taken a much-needed red pill in discovering this blog a few nights ago. If only I could apologize to my father and all the beta orbiters I used up in my youth…God, Im so ashamed of my 30-year existence….

  15. tz2026 says:

    CS Lewis said, Aim for heaven, and you get the earth thrown in. Aim for the earth and you won’t get either it or heaven.

    Marriage should be an exchange of persons in the form of Agape love. Sometimes it goes up from Philea or Eros, but those are too weak to sustain a marriage. It might be easier to have a marriage with someone you have feelings or common interests and the rest, but all that is subject to change or fortune.

    “Till Death Do Us Part” can only come from the will. The will might be weak and mutable, but that is why there is (or should be) so much concern about the couple before they take the leap.

    Our Grandparents pledged “Till Death Do Us Part” and lived it out. And things were rough, but we considered it dishonorable to break sacred promises. Today there is no honor, and when things stop being convenient or pleasurable, we don’t feel bound.

  16. @Rollo

    Vis-a-vis the idea that women are the classic romantics, I think it’s an example of literature built around the woman’s surrender to Alpha. The “love at first sight” kind of stuff where she falls hard and fast for her personal alpha and can’t let go. Ever. Think of all the literature over the centuries that has encapsulated that meme and it’s easy to understand. It completely ignores the reality of the vast majority, but there it is, enshrined as “common knowledge.”

  17. Eva,

    If only I could apologize to my father and all the beta orbiters I used up in my youth…

    I promise you Eva, I will not be critical of you. I’m just curious, (more from a scientific standpoint.) As the bank robber laying shot on the ground, who could have grabbed the shotgun to shoot Harry Callahan but didn’t know if the 44 Magnum Harry was pointing at him was empty or if it still had one life taking bullet in it said to Dirty Harry… “Hey, I gots to know!”

    Your beta-orbiters, did you take advantage of them, just keep them around just to use them for your lady “honey-dos” OR did you honestly think they just wanted to be friends with you and you were too stupid to know they wanted to jump your bones?

  18. Hopeful says:

    Eva,

    Welcome to the club! I know exactly how you feel. The Lord has been showing me some things about myself lately that I’ve needed to repent of. Repentance is the first step so that your prayers are not hindered. The second step is the realize that this does not erase the past and you’ll still have to deal with the consequences. The Lord has had to brace me for some hard times and rejection. Whatever you measure out will be measured back to you again. But thank God He is infinite in grace and mercy and He never leaves us!

  19. Fred Flange says:

    God bless! There was a time in my misspent beta youth when I would have taken the sentiments in The Mason Jar as gospel (idolatry??). I would have pined for years after some Ms. Oneitis, trying to apply and follow these precepts, epically fail, and end up crying in a closed-monoxide-filled car garage listening to Cat Stevens and Gordon Lightfoot songs as I shuffled off to Buffalo.

    [Nothing against Cat Stevens or Gordon Lightfoot records as such - but they WERE great stuff to top yourself by.]

    Not trying to thread-jack. Keep up the serious analysis, gentlemen; I read and learn. But a deep breath of fresh air is needed now and again. It is revisiting slop like this – and seeing it as such – that reaffirms the rightness of this path, and the great great distance I have travelled to get to here and now from the once-fashionable SNAG.

  20. seahay says:

    Such undignified pining.

    I recall John Donne’s poem ‘Love’s Deity’.

    “I long to talk with some old lover’s ghost,
    Who died before the god of love was born.
    I cannot think that he, who then lov’d most,
    Sunk so low as to love one which did scorn.
    But since this god produc’d a destiny,
    And that vice-nature, custom, lets it be,
    I must love her, that loves not me.”

    rest of short poem here http://www.poetryfoundation.org/poem/173376

    First time poster – top notch site dalrock.

    [D: Thank you. Welcome seahay.]

  21. MarcusD says:

    “In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.” — George Orwell

  22. Eva says:

    @Hopeful thank you for your kind words. Maybe its shock, but I cant conceive of or imagine a “get out of jail free card” coming down from the sky or the universe to bail me out of the consequences of my past. Im just reading and letting everything sink in.

    @innocentbystanderboston sorry, I was a little confused by the Dirty Harry paragraph? But considering the betas I knew, I used to think I was a beta along with them, and I had a lot of them as my friends to share interests. Maybe I was stupid to think not one of them was interested in me. This was largely when I was in high school, but when I got to college and was overwhelmed by the alpha interest I was receiving, I forgot about most of my ‘orbiter’ friends and mistreated the ones who still hung around me, because I felt they were cramping my style. I hope that answers your question. Thanks for not shaming me right off the bat.

  23. Stingray says:

    This movie will do well. Very well. I am curious to see how it will play out, but I already know. They will make the man of the story quite alpha in looks, mannerisms, career, home, money, etc but beta in his actions so all of the women in the audience sympathize with him and root for him to get the girl. This will very much reinforce what Lingerfelt is selling because the women watching (and not a few of the men) will be able to feel it.

    In reality, most of the time, beta is as beta does and he has few alpha mannerism to help him to attract many women.

  24. Hopeful says:

    @Eva, don’t misunderstand me. Repentance is no get out of jail free card. It just, in some ways, lightens the load. But the load is still there.

  25. donalgraeme says:

    @ Eva

    I’m genuinely curious, how did you find yourself here? Random web search, or something purposeful?

  26. Stingray says:

    Eva,

    Let the shame come and realize what you’ve done and accept it. Learn from it and analyze it. It might even get harder the more you learn, but keep learning. It will get better over time because you will learn to work to never do these things again. Acceptance will come, it just takes time. But don’t discard the shame or you won’t be able to come out the other side.

  27. Eva,

    @innocentbystanderboston sorry, I was a little confused by the Dirty Harry paragraph?

    Alright. I gots to show you.

    But considering the betas I knew, I used to think I was a beta along with them, and I had a lot of them as my friends to share interests. Maybe I was stupid to think not one of them was interested in me.

    If you weren’t already having sex with them, and I’m guessing you weren’t, they probably wanted to have sex with you OR one of your friends. That’s why they hung around you.

    They were compelled. You had them. All of them.

    This was largely when I was in high school, but when I got to college and was overwhelmed by the alpha interest I was receiving, I forgot about most of my ‘orbiter’ friends and mistreated the ones who still hung around me, because I felt they were cramping my style. I hope that answers your question. Thanks for not shaming me right off the bat.

    No problem. Thanks for the honesty.

  28. Kaehu says:

    Just a beta orbiter here who had his heart cut out at age 21. I was in love, she just wanted a good time in bed before moving on with her “career.” Maybe not an orbiter in the pure sense, but used and discarded nonetheless.

  29. We can love, love, love but sometimes that love isn’t returned. That’s not our fault. To love or not to love is a choice. We chose to love. They chose not to. This does not mean we are unloveable or unworthy of love. We’re not idiots, fools, or weak for loving. Rather, we have courage.

    This struck me. Courage is the willingness to take on danger, risk, or pain for the sake of some higher value. What’s the higher value in the kind of beta-orbiting, unrequited “love” he’s talking about here? She doesn’t want it, so it has negative value for her. He doesn’t learn from it, so it does him no good either. It’s just pain for the sake of pain, as if the more emotional and angsty something is, the more meaningful it must be. But that’s just masochism.

  30. Finn also writes a book about Savannah which Savannah reads before deciding to LJBF him.

    Good grief. I was pretty hopeless at times, but at least I can say I never wrote a book to a woman who didn’t want me. A couple love letters, but not a whole freakin’ book.

  31. I used to think that men and women could be friends but I know now, they just can’t. They aren’t friends. If a man and woman say they are just friends, at least one of them is lying, probably both. — IBB

    Learn it, live it, love it, guys. I have yet to see a single situation where a man and a woman are serious friends and one isn’t secretly (or not so secretly) pining for the other. Not one. I’m talking close friends here, the kind of friend who will help you move, whom you can call in the middle of the night because you’re stuck somewhere without a ride and you know he’ll come.

    The conversation about beta orbiters always goes the same way for me:

    Me: A guy doesn’t hang around with a girl and do stuff for her unless he wants to sleep with her.
    Girl: That may be true most of the time, but not always.
    Me: Yes, always. Every single time.
    Girl: No, I know Gary wasn’t that way. He even said he thought of me as a sister.
    Me: Yes, even Gary. Especially Gary. Gary was lying. Gary probably still thinks about you late at night, even these years later.
    Girl: Ew.

  32. Well, now I see the connection. I read an article that had some explanation for some of the attitudes by men and women on sex, and a solution for same. It said young female rats excrete a pheromone that repels sexual advances from males. They don’t want to be bothered with rodent humpin’. But the pure gold was that the excretion is in her tears.

  33. Eva says:

    @Hopeful Okay, I think I did misinterpret you before, haha! I understand what you’re saying now, thank you for the support.

    @donalgraeme Actually, I was searching if it was possible to marry a good man after hitting 30, and I found the blog post here that’s called “advice for women seeking to marry at 30″, I think. It took me about a day and a half to read through the 1000+ comments, and I was pretty much in tears. I posted my story at the end, but I think the discussion died out – it was about 2 years old. Since I finished with that post around Monday, I’ve been devouring everything I read here because it reminds me a lot of the way my dad (my stepfather, but I viewed him and was raised by him as such) and how he used to teach me. I just ignored most of what he said and didn’t understand/laughed at the rest.

    @Stingray I’m definitely going to soak up the viewpoints and try to tune my ears to wisdom. I’ve already been totally celibate for about 2 years, but I know my past probably formed habits that can creep up at any opportunity, so I really have to study this blog.

    @innocentbystanderboston Taking a chance on the unknown female invader; I appreciate your sense of humor! So I guess it’s really true that girls and boys can’t ever be platonic friends? Is it possible that I misjudged all those hang-out sessions at my friends’ houses playing Tekken and various other video games, and that our friendship was only in my head? Or are you saying it might have been a combination of “hey, I can hang out with this girl”, and “I also want to make out with this girl”? You’re right, I wasn’t sleeping with any of them, I wasted myself on pump-and-dumps after I turned 24.

  34. Love is a choice, not a destiny. This shift to believing that love is not a choice, but staying in a marriage is a choice is disastrous.

  35. Anonymous age 71 says:

    @IBB
    >>If a man and woman say they are just friends, at least one of them is lying, probably both.

    Gosh, I thought only the Pope pontificated! Actually, there are many men and women friends. Still wrapped up in yourself, IBB. Tsk! Tsk!

    Shipshape says ‘almost’ no men and women. That I can buy.

    There are some things in this world that must be learned, that do not come naturally. I suggest that the ability to be friends with women is one of those things that must be learned. It does not come to a man naturally.

    When I was 10, my father moved from the Midwest to Arkansas. I had been in a small one-room country school house where all the kids played together. In Arkansas we had to play within our own grade level. I had had TB as a small child, though we didn’t know it until later when I had a chest x-ray. This made me somewhat fragile, so I was unable to play with the boys.

    Thus I played with the girls. I enjoyed doing so. I learned how girls think and what is important to them. I liked very much how they thought and what they wanted. That is, I learned how to be friends with women.

    I still prefer the company of women. Before I retired, my wife would come into the factory cafeteria, and I would be sitting with as many as 8 women, all of us chatting and having a good time. this was during my most militant MRA period when I wrote the nastiest things about feminism.

    The women accepted me as an intellectual friend, not a PUA. That is why it worked.

    I remember a man I knew asked one of my friends, “Why can you be friends with ’71’? He hates women!”

    She giggled and said, “He doesn’t hate women. He only hates feminists. Besides, we know what he stands for.”

    I understood the last sentence and he did not. One complaint sane women, when such exist, have had is that men don’t seem to stand for anything at all. No convictions, at least not communicated to women. I certainly had convictions and the whole world knew them. So, these women respected me for that, even if they did not always like it.

    And, they also knew I was not going to hit on them in any way.

    Here in Mexico, my best friend is a married woman, married to the man who is my best friend among men. We actually view each other as more like brother and sister than friends. Her husband approves.

    And, most of my personal friends are women. I am much more likely to be in the kitchen with the women than drinking beer with the men.

    Yes, I am using myself as an example, because I don’t personally know a lot of men who know how to be friends with women. I know they exist, because women have told me of men friends like myself. But, for the most part when someone pontificates men and women cannot be friends what they mean is, “I cannot be friends with women; I don’t know how.” That is why I support Shipshape’s statement which only says “almost”.

    @IBB
    >>If a man and woman say they are just friends, at least one of them is lying, probably both.

    Gosh, I thought only the Pope pontificated! Actually, there are many men and women friends. Still wrapped up in yourself, IBB. Tsk! Tsk!

    Shipshape says ‘almost’ no men and women. That I can buy.

    There are some things in this world that must be learned, that do not come naturally. I suggest that the ability to be friends with women is one of those things that must be learned. It does not come to a man naturally.

    When I was 10, my father moved from the Midwest to Arkansas. I had been in a small one-room country school house where all the kids played together. In Arkansas we had to play within our own grade level. I had had TB as a small child, though we didn’t know it until later when I had a chest x-ray. This made me somewhat fragile, so I was unable to play with the boys.

    Thus I played with the girls. I enjoyed doing so. I learned how girls think and what is important to them. I liked very much how they thought and what they wanted. That is, I learned how to be friends with women.

    I still prefer the company of women. Before I retired, my wife would come into the factory cafeteria, and I would be sitting with as many as 8 women, all of us chatting and having a good time. this was during my most militant MRA period when I wrote the nastiest things about feminism.

    The women accepted me as an intellectual friend, not a PUA. That is why it worked.

    I remember a man I knew asked one of my friends, “Why can you be friends with ’71’? He hates women!”

    She giggled and said, “He doesn’t hate women. He only hates feminists. Besides, we know what he stands for.”

    I understood the last sentence and he did not. One complaint sane women, when such exist, have had is that men don’t seem to stand for anything at all. No convictions, at least not communicated to women. I certainly had convictions and the whole world knew them. So, these women respected me for that, even if they did not always like it.

    And, they also knew I was not going to hit on them in any way.

    Here in Mexico, my best friend is a married woman, married to the man who is my best friend among men. We actually view each other as more like brother and sister than friends. Her husband approves.

    And, most of my personal friends are women. I am much more likely to be in the kitchen with the women than drinking beer with the men.

    Yes, I am using myself as an example, because I don’t personally know a lot of men who know how to be friends with women. I know they exist, because women have told me of men friends like myself. But, for the most part when someone pontificates men and women cannot be friends what they mean is, “I cannot be friends with women; I don’t know how.” That is why I support Shipshape’s statement which only says “almost”.

  36. sunshinemary says:

    @ Cail

    I have yet to see a single situation where a man and a woman are serious friends and one isn’t secretly (or not so secretly) pining for the other. Not one. I’m talking close friends here, the kind of friend who will help you move, whom you can call in the middle of the night because you’re stuck somewhere without a ride and you know he’ll come.

    You might remember a discussion about this from my old blog, Temptation: Can men and women be friends? Keoni Galt has a very good female friend and says men and women can be friends. I think I agree with him, but it’s a dangerous plank to walk because it’s never certain if one party is secretly pining for the other. I had male friends in college, and they did not provide me with free meals or fix my car for me or anything like that. We went hiking or studied together, that’s all – no hanky panky and no resource exchange. I think it’s possible but risky. As a married woman, I would not have a close male friend, and I would be very un-okay with my husband having a close female friend.

    @ RT

    …some bloggers have run me (and Deti) up the flagpole for suggesting that men love idealistically and women love opportunistically.

    [A note to readers: whenever Mr. Tomassi writes some bloggers, you read Sunshine Mary.]

    My issue wasn’t that men love idealistically. They can and do…but you did happen to notice the man in your comment thread who ditched his loyal and good wife because he wanted to have sex with lots of other women, right? So, is that an expression of men’s idealism, too? I’m seriously asking here. I know I was a brat in the post I wrote about it, and so I apologize for the ‘tude, but I genuinely don’t understand how you can argue that when evidence to the contrary is right there in your own thread.

    @ Dalrock

    What nearly all modern Christians have done is place romantic love above marriage. Instead of seeing marriage as the moral context to pursue romantic love and sex, romantic love is now seen as the moral place to experience sex and marriage. This inversion is subtle enough that no one seems to have noticed, but if you look for it you will see it everywhere.

    I could never have figured that out, but since your original post, I have indeed noticed it everywhere. It isn’t only Christians, it’s everyone, but it is only startling when it comes from Christians. But oh man, if you read Christian romantic fiction – well not you personally, but maybe your wife reads it? – you will see that this is the implicit framework. Romantic love, rather than commitment to building a family for God’s glory, is the basis for all the Christian good-girl happily-ever-afters. Very worrisome.

    Either way, misusing romantic love outside of marriage isn’t moral just because one decides not to misuse sex in the same way.

    Mr. Caldo has been on about this quite a bit lately, too, for example in his post, UNPLUMBED WRONGNESS, which is quite thought-provoking. He writes:

    Anyone not raised in some fringe culture like the Amish or Mennonites is going to be quite sexually perverted. Actual sex acts involving the sexual organs make this worse, and certainly more stark, but, folks: French kissing is a real sexual act. If you don’t think so: Go french your dad and then tell him it’s just a kiss. Watch your wife tongue another man, and then play it off. Take a moonlit walk with the neighbor lady with your arms around each-other’s waists and see if your wife minds.

  37. Anonymous age 71 says:

    @Eva: we are going to assume you had a significant N count. That is the way we are wired here.

    It is hard to put behind you the physical and temporal effects of a significant N count. Even if you b.s. your way into marriage with a good man, it is too easy to get bored with that sort of life after years of high N count and pull the divorce trigger.

    Putting on a sweet Christian girl dress and singing in the church choir every Sunday might find you a husband, but your mind is still messed up.

    In my experience, the only way to live down a ‘past’ is to become totally moral in all aspects. Not just sexual, also don’t cheat on your taxes, no speeding n your car. Learn to be nice to people, let others go ahead in line, even men.

    Do things for other people, to the degree that you actually learn to enjoy doing things for other people.

    Find a traditional moral code, such as true Biblical Christianity and learn to accept it as your own.

    Women file for divorce, and certain categories of women are more likely to do so, because they have no external authority to guide their behavior. The only other choice is an internal authority, which essentially means, “If it feels good, do it.” That is what got you where you are.

    Don’t let Churchianity lead you astray. If you choose Christianity go to the source, the Bible, and avoid Churchianity Bible classes.

    Your repentance has to be totally internalized to the point of habit. And, it may take a while.

    If you hope to marry, the best book I know of is ME? OBEY HIM? which teaches women how to find marital happiness by biblical submission. Don’t wait until you marry, because you need to marry a man you are willing to submit to. He need not be a mighty hairy chested alpha. In fact, get that out of your mind.

  38. Hannah says:

    We live in a society that worships at the altar of Romantic Love.
    It is beyond difficult to escape the social control propaganda that teaches us that FEELINGS are next to Godliness.

    Matt Redman who wrote one of my favourite recent songs we sing in church
    ‘10,000 Reasons-Bless the Lord’ (reminds me of Amazing Grace) said this:

    “The church has been under-fathered and over-mothered.”

    Here’s an interview with him regarding romantic language in worship songs and why it doesn’t suit blokes…

  39. Elspeth says:

    “The church has been under-fathered and over-mothered.”

    I like that. It rings very true.

  40. Jen says:

    Solid post here. Dalrock, your point about the inversion even in the church at large is especially true (and startling to see in black and white, because it is true).

    Anyone raising children, reading that, would realize very quickly that they have to be extremely careful about what they let their children consume, culturally speaking—books, movies, TV. “Free” romantic love is everywhere, and that molds a lot of minds.

    Anyhow. Superb post.

  41. Oblivion says:

    i talked to my father last week. im the only unmarried child in a large christian family and i told him why i wasnt married. i explained the divorce laws and how children are just property of the women and the huge risk it was now. he didnt get until i told him that women initiate 70% of divorces and how alot of them are started by the woman calling the police and how easy the process was. then he started mentioning good young men (we both knew) who’s wives left them for no good reason, one day the women were unhappy and divorced them. It felt really good for my father who has almost been married for 50 years to finally understand my lack of being married. My mother finally understands where im coming from also. btw, my parents couldnt possibly be much more conservative christian.

  42. Eva says:

    @Anonymous age 71 I can’t argue with anything you’ve written. My N is 3, but I’ve read here that most men will react to my declaration with “multiply by 3, and there’s her real N”, and I don’t think that’s unreasonable because I know my number is a typical answer and lots of women lie about their numbers out of shame. With those 3 men I’ve been, I engaged in a lot of fruitless experiences, so I can’t even act like my number is 3 x 1 sexual encounter per N. In my first post to this blog, I typed out a laundry list of the ways I’m trying to change from inside out, but I agree that I’m rather damaged because I have miles on my odometer. I’ve never heard of the book you’ve suggested, but I’ll look for it, thank you! I have a book called “Fascinating Womanhood” that’s written by a Mormom woman (Helen Angelis, if I remember right?). If you’ve heard of it, do you think it’s in line with setting out the right guidelines to make myself marriage material? It talks extensively about submitting to your husband, and I really think it speaks the truth to having a happy marriage – but I’m not a man, so I can’t assume that I know what men actually look for in an ideal or satisfactory wife. Your (and any other commenters) advice is greatly appreciated!

  43. Twenty says:

    To be fair, “scheduled for pre-production in 2015″ is as near to “not actually being made into a movie” as makes no difference.

  44. Sis says:

    His blog doesn’t sound romantic to me, he sounds strong. I think it would be better categorized as sacrificial love. His biggest mistake is not giving Christ credit. Only when Christ fills us are we able to sacrificially pour love out onto others who do not return it. When it comes to loving others, the goals of a Christian must be elevated to the salvation of others and worrying about your reputation, or being seen as weak, or having love returned doesn’t matter anymore. I would not call this man a beta, he is a different kind of strong.

  45. Sis says:

    “To love means loving the unlovable. To forgive means pardoning the unpardonable. Faith means believing the unbelievable. Hope means hoping when everything seems hopeless.” G.K. Chesterton

  46. ephirius says:

    “His blog doesn’t sound romantic to me, he sounds strong. I think it would be better categorized as sacrificial love….I would not call this man a beta, he is a different kind of strong.”

    Sacrificing what and for what purpose? I might sacrifice my life to save the life of my wife. Or I might sacrifice my career for the sake of some other purpose. But sacrificing one’s happiness so that someone else can take what they can get and then leave isn’t sacrificial love. At best, it is enabling the bad behavior of others. At worse, it is self-pity and, as Dalrock put it, the elevation of romantic love into a virtue (which it is not).

    Real sacrificial love has a lot less to do with feelings. Real strength has a lot less to do with being manipulated, taken advantage of, and feeling like the whole thing was worth it. That is the key to this problem: Spirituality and love have been conflated with emotion, when they are distinct (and, I would argue, not even always present at the same time).

    The Bible calls Christians to “live above reproach”, so our reputations -do- matter. It also outlines how men and women are to interact, which is not for men and women to live in endless courtship or gushy thoughts of each other. Ultimately, what this guy had was not love, but infatuation (perhaps bordering on obsession) with a woman who had no interest. I’ve been there and done that. It isn’t healthy, it isn’t virtuous, it isn’t strong, and it most certainly isn’t selfless love. It is full of self.

  47. infowarrior1 says:

    @ Eva

    Isaiah 6:1-7
    1In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the traina of his robe filled the temple. 2Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. 3And one called to another and said:

    “Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts;
    the whole earth is full of his glory!”b

    4And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. 5And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”

    6Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. 7And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”

  48. infowarrior1 says:

    @Eva
    Have you been saved?

  49. Dalrock says:

    @Sis

    His blog doesn’t sound romantic to me, he sounds strong. I think it would be better categorized as sacrificial love. His biggest mistake is not giving Christ credit. Only when Christ fills us are we able to sacrificially pour love out onto others who do not return it. When it comes to loving others, the goals of a Christian must be elevated to the salvation of others and worrying about your reputation, or being seen as weak, or having love returned doesn’t matter anymore. I would not call this man a beta, he is a different kind of strong.

    I think you are mistaking his romantic love for something more like brotherly love. If he carried on the same way with Larry and Frank as he does with Eden and Savannah, the problem would be obvious to you. Perhaps easier, if your husband carried on with other women in this way, would that be ok? Would you call that noble, brave, and strong?

  50. Sis says:

    Ah, I see; you’re right on this one. :). Wife is not equal to girlfriend

  51. Pingback: The elevation of romantic love and the wisdom o...

  52. TMG says:

    Promoting this concept that one should keep pouring out love for others regardless of whether they return it is a tactic of social conditioning to create a more exploitable population.

  53. Opus says:

    Being the reasonable and fair-minded person that I am and wanting to convince myself that James Russell Lingerfelt had to be Canadian – for they seem to be the greatest Manginas, I clicked on to Amazon where I was able to read the Prologue from this great novel, and I must say I am not motivated to read further. The idea that Hammersmith is next to London’s City Centre (not that any English person would ever use that term – does he mean the West End or does he mean The City; it is not clear) is geographically daft, and as implausible as the idea that if you work at Sotheby’s (the Auctioneers) as does his heroine, which is in New Bond Street – just off Oxford Street, that you would go off to Hammersmith for lunch – Hammersmith is about eight miles away. The Dove is not a pub name (and you should all know that we would pronounce it Duv not Doe-v). Equally, the picture painted of the English and Scottish lower-order types – the author can’t quite decide – with their quaint accents at the pub may impress gullible Americans but it had me laughing – London is now almost as ethnic as D.C. – a self-inflicted wound – I am sad to report and there is no way ANYTHING in a London pub costs just £2.00 – not unless this is 1980.

    The heroine however is reading Pride and Prejudice and so as Tolstoy put it so well (when dissecting another female-penned novel) in What is Art, this isn’t Art but art about Art.

    I predict great success for the forthcoming Movie.

  54. earl says:

    “Love is a choice, not a destiny.”

    Exactly…or love is an action. It is something you can fully control through your actions.

    Which is why people should prefer agape love over romantic love. That is a love you can control and are free to give to anyone in spite of how you feel…whereas romantic love is very blue pill in that you love whomever you want to love based off emotions.

  55. Opus says:

    May I also add that I very much doubt that Sotheby’s employ one or more Curators which is the alleged job there of the heroine, Savannah. One curate’s a collection at a Museum but Sotheby’s employ experts (such as the friend I sat beside in school who later worked for Sotheby’s as an expert in fine art of a particular period to advise on valuation and reserve prices, and doubtless also restoration of damaged art). Savannah thus seems to have a rather male job, that of moving items in and out.

    I am surprised that we have yet to have a Dalrock ravaging of that other currently popular piece of Feminist nonsense, The Shack.

  56. greyghost says:

    The theme Lingerfelt’s blog is on is real popular. I have 7-12 year old kids and have disney and nick jr. channels and the shows that come on can all be called the beta orbitter show staring this teenie bopper of the month. It is normal for a guy to idolize a girl and it finds it way into pop culture. The first time I noticed it in a movie was when I saw the Last American Virgin. That was some big time Beta chumpness for an unworthy in character female. As Rollo as said, it is a normal male tendency. It is most likely the key reason why this theme is easy to sell.

  57. Is it possible that I misjudged all those hang-out sessions at my friends’ houses playing Tekken and various other video games, and that our friendship was only in my head? Or are you saying it might have been a combination of “hey, I can hang out with this girl”, and “I also want to make out with this girl”? — Eva

    Yes, that’s what it was. I won’t speak for IBB, but I’m not saying a man can’t enjoy a girl’s company and friendship without sex. I’m saying when a man spends a lot of time or energy on a girl, that’s not all he wants. He wants the sex too. Also, we’re not talking about group get-togethers, here, if that’s not obvious. There are lots of other dynamics there. But if Jack invited you over to his place often to play video games, just the two of you, then yes, I would give 100-1 odds that he was hoping that eventually sparks would fly.

    You might remember a discussion about this from my old blog, Temptation: Can men and women be friends? — SSM

    Yes, and as I recall, I said then that those guys who were “just friends” with you and went camping and so on did it because they wanted to sleep with you. I’m not saying they didn’t also want friendship. They wanted to start with friendship and hoped that it would develop into romance. That’s the poisonous lie boys are taught: be her friend first, and it will grow.

    Yes, there are exceptions, as with anything dealing with human nature. But they’re rare enough that no girl should ever say to herself, “Well, Steve says he just wants to be friends, so he must be an exception.” No, he’s almost certainly not. By the way, you’ve surely seen the video where the guy walks around a college campus asking girls if they think men and women can be just friends. After they say yes, he then asks them if they have a good guy friend, and then asks, “So, would he want a relationship if you did?” Invariably, they blush a little as they say yes, realizing the implication — it’s not really “just friends” for him, and they know that, even if they don’t look at it.

  58. earl says:

    What it all comes down to if a woman is friends with a man…that means she has no real desire for him…but she is getting her emotional need for male attention taken care of.

    See women are screwing themselves over both ways….physically by alphas and emotionally by beta orbiters. When they should be saving both of those for their husbands.

  59. AmStrat says:

    @IBB and Cail

    Please continue, I would like to hear about why girls allow these “friendships” to continue.

  60. John says:

    Speaking of movies…I don’t watch many, but saw a few recently on an international flight. One of them was Mud. I really enjoyed it and thought it was really interesting from a game perspective (as well as other perspectives).

    Although it had big-name stars (including Matthew Mcconaughey and Reese Witherspoon), it’s more of an indie/Cannes type film, but not an unnecessarily weird one. Set in a small Arkansas town on the Mississippi river, it had elements of Mark Twain, Stand by Me, Slingblade and Deliverance, with a lot of male-female relational dynamics going on. Basically, the plot revolves around two boys meeting a fugitive on an island on the MS River.

    Without giving any spoilers, it didn’t follow the “all relationship problems are caused by men” theme so common in modern Christian flicks. Marriage/divorce, school crushes, white knights and other issues ran through the film. Sam Shepherd played a crusty former Marine sniper, and he offered some great wisdom for the two young protagonists.

    It may not be everyone’s cup of tea, but I recommend it. It had some action, but it wasn’t a typical ” guy movie” (mindless action) or chick flick (mindless sentimental garbage). And it can definitely inspire some game-related discussion.

  61. Stingray says:

    Eva,

    I invite you to come over to come on over to Girls Being Girls. Some of us women have recently begun our own blogs to talk about femininity and submission is a big part of that.

    If you like what you see, go up to the right hand corner and check out many more blogs that might help you out (the GBG Friendly Blogs link). I think you might like what you see there. I encourage you to keep reading here as well. Getting the male perspective is very important.

  62. Hopeful says:

    “By the way, you’ve surely seen the video where the guy walks around a college campus asking girls if they think men and women can be just friends. After they say yes, he then asks them if they have a good guy friend, and then asks, “So, would he want a relationship if you did?” Invariably, they blush a little as they say yes, realizing the implication — it’s not really “just friends” for him, and they know that, even if they don’t look at it.”

    Can you post this video?

  63. Hopeful says:

    Thanks, earl. I had never seen it before. Dating coach Evan Marc Katz said something along the lines of men are attracted to and can date 95% of women, whereas women are only attracted to and date about 0.0001% of men. Probably one reason you’re seeing the disconnect here. And not to mention how hard it is for both men and women to get out of the friendzone.

  64. earl says:

    And your daily dose of a man who is dating the mother beating up the child of another man. I imagine she will play no part in the fault or blame.

    http://www.tmz.com/2013/10/11/adrian-peterson-son-assault-battery-2-year-old-police-child-abuse/

  65. feeriker says:

    @ Opus:

    You’re speaking as if facts and reality are important to people who read maudlin tripe like Lingerfelt’s literary scribblings. SURELY you know better (tsk tsk). The only response you’re ever likely to get from such people by pointing out the glaringly obvious flaws in such literary turds are angry accusations that you’re cynical, judgmental, a bully, or “unappreciative of good literature” (you KNOW that is sure to come up at some point when all other defenses fail).

  66. Fred Flange says:

    Wow: I am only an occasional visitor to London, but if I were writing a story set there I would at least know to get my geography right. On prior trips I always kept my fat book of the London city map handy even in neighborhoods I knew like Notting Hill. (Now of course the big fact book is available on your phone).

    Last American Virgin and Blue Valentine are two movies showing Red Pill truth (beta dweeb loses out to Alpha cad every time). I know a lot of people here don’t like HBO’s “Girls” for various reasons, but the writer is very game-aware in how she writes the characters and chooses their behavior (the show’s one-time working title was like “Smart Women Making Bad Decisions”). Though more overtly farcical, Stephen Merchant’s new “Hello Ladies” likewise has a solid red-pill base: he is a wealthy beta dweeb stuck in neutral, while his handicapped-but-broke loudmouth friend not only cleans up with women, but has Stephen act as his driver to bring them home, and Stephen is cockblocked by a frivorced Omega friend obsessed with his ex.

  67. AmStrat,

    @IBB and Cail

    Please continue, I would like to hear about why girls allow these “friendships” to continue.

    Welp, I am not a woman. So I can only speak from a man’s perspective (when he was stupid enough to be a male orbiter.) I stopped doing that right quick when I discovered red pill self-esteem, but for too many others, they keep doing it (perhaps all their lives.)

    So men, please… STOP.

    Having said that, let me say this. Why do I think that women continue to allow these friendships to continue? Because they have all the power. And they know it. I think deep down a woman knows that the beta orbiter wants so much more from her than friendship, and it makes her feel good to have someone “orbit” her in that way. Best case, she does it just to make herself feel good. Worst case, she does it to have a male around to do the heavy lifting (from time to time) things that her girlfriends could not and would not do (move this bed, lift this fridge, fix this car, etc.)

    Personally, I don’t believe that most women have a problem with this, but this comes back around to the concept of women lacking moral agency. I don’t believe that women ask themselves if they should be doing this with their beta orbiters (is it moral to string them along this way or not.) Instead, they just ask if they can or can’t.

  68. Elspeth says:

    Women genuinely believe that we can be “just friends” with a man. It’s not until we get into it a lot of times that the reality sets in. Then what to do? You’ve been spending time with this person 6 months, a year, sometimes longer. Extricating yourself from a friendship for no apprent reason isn’t an easy thing to do.

    I’m not making excuses, just offering a more realistic, well rounded picture than the one where the woman is just deliberately stringing a guy along.

  69. Women genuinely believe that we can be “just friends” with a man. It’s not until we get into it a lot of times that the reality sets in. Then what to do?

    I would say that this excuse works once. Then after she knows the truth about men (not being able to be friends) if she does it again, that is her fault. She learned the hard way the first time (hurt her beta orbiter) and if she does it a second time, her actions are immoral.

  70. Some Guy says:

    Muddy the waters if you want to, Elspeth…. The speed and earnestness with which the girls said that men and women could “just be friends” combined with the blushing when they were asked point blank if these guys had any romantic interest in them– that really tells the story. The girl that tried to go “not all let’s just be friends relationships are like that” really wasn’t particularly convincing at that point. Combine ALL of that with the fact that the women would probably all put down the guys that were giving the truthful answers as being immature or creepy and you see how this game is really played.

    Girls are basically all a bunch of plate spinning cads– and they are masters of dressing it all up as innocently as possible. Meanwhile… they have their emotional porn on sale at the grocery store and vibrators on sale at the corner drug store.

  71. earl says:

    “I’m not making excuses, just offering a more realistic, well rounded picture than the one where the woman is just deliberately stringing a guy along.”

    She gets her emotional need for male attention fulfilled without the nasty physical stuff because she doesn’t desire him. It is a way to hold herself over while she is on the prowl. Then when a guy she does desire comes along…the other dude never really existed.

    It may not be some grand plan she formed in her head when she met the guy…but it is always lurking in her subconcious.

  72. Girls are basically all a bunch of plate spinning cads– and they are masters of dressing it all up as innocently as possible.

    No. Moral. Agency.

  73. Eidolon says:

    Eva,

    I read your story over on that other post. You said above that you’re not in a position to decide whether you’re wife material, but I just want to say that your head is in the right place. You read the hard truth and you were willing to go where it lead you. That’s a big step in the right direction. What you’ve said has humility to it, and that’s a huge part of what you need.

    If you understand that a man is taking a risk on you, appreciate him for it, and keep it in mind even when you’re unhappy, that will really help you. It sounds like you’re close to where you need to be, at least conceptually. It’s going to be a lot harder to live out these principles.

    I highly recommend going to church and seeing what sort of men you can meet there. Being a Christian, of course, I think the best thing for you is to become a Christian and find a church home. At most decent-sized churches you’re likely to find good men who are shy or not great at meeting women who would be worth having. One side-effect of the overly-permissive attitude for previously slutty women that will help you is that there’s not as much stigma on non-virginal women among churchgoing betas. Just keep in mind what you’ve learned here and stick to Biblical marriage roles as much as you can, even if the church tries to tell you otherwise.

    I hope that God will lead you in finding a good husband and in being a good wife, and I hope that you come into the Christian church someday!

  74. earl says:

    “No. Moral. Agency.”

    If you keep giving a woman a way out from their moral behavior…I’ll turn into the drill instructor.

    She eats the jelly doughnut and the guys that have moral agency have to do pushups.

  75. Elspeth says:

    Muddy the waters if you want to, Elspeth

    I wasn’t attempting to do that. Really. I just know how hard it is after you’ve been friends for a very long time to unravel it when the truth starts to surface.

    Then after she knows the truth about men (not being able to be friends) if she does it again, that is her fault. She learned the hard way the first time (hurt her beta orbiter) and if she does it a second time, her actions are immoral.

    This is tantamount to saying All Men Are Like That. You know that, right? I’m not a girl anymore, I know now what I did not know 22 years ago, and I have no male friends. My husband has no female friends. Even people we thought were our mutual friends when we were dating basically blew us off completely the minute we said ‘I do’. There was a lot of stuff going on there that escaped our notice.

    But a young girl isn’t usually as savvy about these things at first. By the time she graduates high school she should have figured it out. I agree that it is immoral to string along men you have no interest in.

    That said, men have to take responsibility for their actions when they orbit a woman that they want when they know full well she isn’t interested. A little masculine pride, if you will.

  76. feeriker says:

    But a young girl isn’t usually as savvy about these things at first. By the time she graduates high school she should have figured it out. I agree that it is immoral to string along men you have no interest in.

    True, but unfortunately this isn’t just a practice of young girls. I personally know single women in their 30s and 40s, “Cougar Wannabes,” who do this to men both in their own age group and younger.

  77. This is tantamount to saying All Men Are Like That. You know that, right? I’m not a girl anymore, I know now what I did not know 22 years ago, and I have no male friends. My husband has no female friends. Even people we thought were our mutual friends when we were dating basically blew us off completely the minute we said ‘I do’. There was a lot of stuff going on there that escaped our notice.

    But a young girl isn’t usually as savvy about these things at first.

    She would be if she listened to her father. She needs male headship to understand men.

    Elspeth, my dad made sure I understood at age 12 that all women wanted to be treated special. I knew that I wasn’t special but I was a boy. I didn’t know that all women HAD to be treated special. I had no idea until my father explained that to me and explained why that was important. I leared about the lack a moral agency a little while later.

    A young girl needs her father to explain to her why boys and girls can’t be friends. She needs to listen to that. That is Biblical. If she doesn’t have a father, her mother needs to tell her that. But she finds out, and she knows how dangerous it is to string them along, how hurtful it can be keeping beta orbiters.

  78. Elspeth,

    That said, men have to take responsibility for their actions when they orbit a woman that they want when they know full well she isn’t interested. A little masculine pride, if you will.

    Yes they do. Correct. That is why I told them (just 20 posts up) that they need to STOP DOING THIS!

  79. feeriker says:

    A young girl needs her father to explain to her why boys and girls can’t be friends. She needs to listen to that. That is Biblical. If she doesn’t have a father, her mother needs to tell her that.

    Fat chance, especially if she’s the daughter of a single mother. Mom is, in all likelihood, an expert practitioner in the art of collecting disposable beta orbiter tools and is only too happy to share the “tricks of the trade” with her daughter.

    But she finds out, and she knows how dangerous it is to string them along, how hurtful it can be keeping beta orbiters.

    But she couldn’t care less (and why should she, especially if she falls anywhere into even the “semi-‘hawt'” category?). Refer to my above comment about “like mother, like daughter.”

  80. Earl,

    If you keep giving a woman a way out from their moral behavior…I’ll turn into the drill instructor.

    If you keep interjecting about how husbands and wives interact with each other without any personal wisdom of your own to back it up, I’ll turn a deaf ear to everything you have to say.

    Stop. Thinking. Men. And. Women. Are. The. Same.

  81. Hey Dalrockas!

    I said it beofre before & I’ll say it againz, evn though I know you are humble and reluctant to take creditz.

    YOU ARE PROVIDING DA LARGEST TRUE CHURCH GROUP FOR MEN IN THE WORLDZ! WHERE WE DISCUSS THE BIBLE AND CULTURE AND THE TRU MENAINGS OF THE WORDS OF JESUS AND THE PROPHETS!

    Now I know da Dalrockas said before “Thanks for teh kind words, but this is not a church group nor a church and I am not a minister nor pastor,” and you wanted to make this perfectly clear.

    But there are those who say they are not going, who go.
    And there are those who say they are going, who do not go.

    And every night at da clubz after d alcubsz da womenz future-churcian womenz who are yet riding the ock caroseul say to da GBFM, “my god dat is a losts cockaszz!!” and da gbfm say,”Thanks for teh kind words, but this is not the Fed nor am I Ben Benrenekre lzizzizlziuzlzozlzozzo”

  82. earl says:

    “If you keep interjecting about how husbands and wives interact with each other without any personal wisdom of your own to back it up, I’ll turn a deaf ear to everything you have to say.”

    Ok then.

    All your wife sins…are yours. She gets heaven and you get to hang out with the devil.

  83. Eva says:

    @infowarrior1 I’ve been “saved”, but I don’t believe in the concept anymore. I mean no disrespect to the Christians on the forum!! I firmly believe in God Almighty and take the ‘Old Testament’ very seriously (more so in the last 2 years), but I no longer believe that the New Testament belongs in the Bible or that it has anything to do with God’s nature. I’m happy to consider your views, though, I’ve had a Catholic upbringing and I really try to sift through what I read to evaluate what can be useful.

    @Stingray I’ve bookmarked the link you provided. Thank you! :)

    @Eidolon thank you so much for your reply. Reading what I’ve typed out to infowarrior1, don’t you think it would be disingenuous for me to join a church? I would think that the men in churches want a woman who is of the same faith, at least pretends to be, or would be willing to join the faith in order to please her husband. But I take my understanding of God’s word very seriously and I feel like I’d be wrong against Him to join a church that venerates Jesus just to find a husband. I’m thinking maybe I’d be a better fit to Judaism? But I have problems accepting the Talmud as well, so I thought to be honest, I’d stay out of the church and try to find a man that believes in God but isn’t bound to a religion, and see if we can agree on how to rear a family within our beliefs.

  84. earl says:

    And by the way…I never said anything about husbands and wives.

  85. Elspeth says:

    A young girl needs her father to explain to her why boys and girls can’t be friends. She needs to listen to that. That is Biblical. If she doesn’t have a father, her mother needs to tell her that.

    My father didn’t say this in so many words, but he definitely put the hammer down hard when I would start making friends with boys, which was easy for me to do because I had a lot of brothers in the house.

    Not that I listened all that well to what he had to say, because I-knew-everything-and-why-couldn’t-girls-and-boys-be-friends-that-was-just-stupid. I did figure out soon enough though that he was right.

    Still, men need to refuse to orbit.

  86. Dalrock says:

    @IBB

    Earl,

    If you keep giving a woman a way out from their moral behavior…I’ll turn into the drill instructor.

    If you keep interjecting about how husbands and wives interact with each other without any personal wisdom of your own to back it up, I’ll turn a deaf ear to everything you have to say.

    Stop. Thinking. Men. And. Women. Are. The. Same.

    As Earl pointed out, he wasn’t talking about the interaction of husbands and wives. More importantly, he wasn’t lecturing anyone on how to be a husband, lead a wife, etc (in the comment you are replying to). Not being married doesn’t disqualify Earl from any and all discussion on men and women, or even on what the Bible says regarding marriage, morality, etc.

  87. Dalrock says:

    @Elspeth

    Still, men need to refuse to orbit.

    This is it. We can’t make the world a safe place for beta orbiters (male sluts) any more than we can make the world a safe place for women to offer sex without commitment. The focus of the message for their own protection needs to be their responsibility not to do this. Of course in either transaction the sluts aren’t the only ones who are harmed; the sin carries harm for both. But this is why messages like the book in the OP are so dangerous. They teach beta orbiters that they are acting nobly when they orbit, and they teach women who gather harems of beta orbiters that they are being noble for doing so as well.

  88. MarcusD says:

    @Opus
    According to his website, James Russell Lingerfelt is from Alabama. He seems to have degrees in both psychology and marriage & family counseling – that would explain his views, given the general left-leaning nature of both fields.

    I am surprised that we have yet to have a Dalrock ravaging of that other currently popular piece of Feminist nonsense, The Shack.

    The local church community (diocese) where I live bought that book by the pallet. Suffice to say, I give the community/diocese about two generations before it dies out (average age of the congregations is about 60 and climbing).

    @earl
    That’s just it, though. Women don’t really have to do much to attract men (since men generally judge mating suitability based on outward appearances). Men almost invariably have to work hard to attract women (though, short term attraction to men in women is based on facial masculinity and shoulder-to-waist ratio, but that’s only possible for a small percentage of men). Two factors, now: men have become feminized, and regardless of that, they don’t always put forth the effort to attract women. The end result is men attracted to women, and most women not really attracted to men. Add in the male control theory of the sexual marketplace (Baumeister, etc) – where men exert ever-decreasing amounts of effort for the same result (e.g. sex) – and you have what is seen in the video.

  89. deti says:

    “We can’t make the world a safe place for beta orbiters (male sluts) any more than we can make the world a safe place for women to offer sex without commitment.”

    And, much as I hate to admit it, we have to be intellectually honest and consistent. I can’t blame women for using beta orbiters who willingly whore themselves out to those women, any more than I can blame cads, PUAs and players for using women who willingly whore themselves out to those men.

  90. Michael says:

    Beta Orbiter = Male Slut? Don’t see the comparison. A pickup artist is a male slut. Not a Beta Orbiter. I was a Beta Orbiter in college. A Beta Orbiter is a man who values a women’s aura and beauty. Feelings that actually mean something. This is a far cry from a pick up artist who approaches multiple women per week as though they are business objects.

  91. Elspeth says:

    @ Michael:

    I think the distinction they are making here is about the currency, if you will. Female sluts give away what men tend to value more; their bodies. Male sluts (beta orbiters if you will) tend to give away what women value more; catering to a woman’s emotional need for attention.

  92. Pingback: Matt Redman: Church, Worship, Fatherhood « Cedars Eleven

  93. deti says:

    Michael:

    The validity of the comparison between the slut and the beta orbiter is in the freewheeling way they offer their most valuable assets to the opposite sex in serially futile attempts to gain what they want.

    The slut offers sex (her valuable asset) to try to get either (1) status; or (2) commitment from the hot alpha (what she wants).

    The beta orbiter offers time, money, resources and investment (his valuable asset) to try to get sex (what he wants).

    “A Beta Orbiter is a man who values a women’s aura and beauty.”

    No. It’s not about aura and beauty; it’s about the beta orbiter trying to bang that aura and beauty. Betas want sex as much as alphas do; it’s just that betas are far less successful at getting it. Beta orbiters are running Nice Guy ™ game to try to get sex, not so they can just “get next to” a pretty girl.

    “Feelings that actually mean something.”

    Those feelings only mean something to you. They mean less than nothing to the woman using the beta orbiter. Just as the slut’s feelings mean less than nothing to the cad who pumps and dumps her.

  94. orion2 says:

    @ Michael

    A slut gives sex without intimacy or commitment, a beta orbiter gives intimacy and commitment without sex.

    Both give away what is most desired (more or less) by the other sex without valuing it enough to get something in return.

    The lack of confidence and/or social obliviousness are more or less the same.

  95. Joe says:

    Elspeth –

    That said, men have to take responsibility for their actions when they orbit a woman that they want when they know full well she isn’t interested. A little masculine pride, if you will.

    I agree 100%, but all to often men may not know full well she isn’t interested. She often holds out a glimmer of hope causing men to assume something is there that just needs time to develop when in reality there is absolutely nothing.

  96. orion2 says:

    Beta Orbiter = Male Slut? Don’t see the comparison. A pickup artist is a male slut. Not a Beta Orbiter. I was a Beta Orbiter in college. A Beta Orbiter is a man who values a women’s aura and beauty. Feelings that actually mean something. This is a far cry from a pick up artist who approaches multiple women per week as though they are business objects.

    As for “aura and beauty”.

    Beauty is as superficial as it comes, aura is in your head, mostly.

    Glowing skin, shining hear, hey, she is free of parasites, symetric features, good genes, no teratogenic diffculties, no lack of nutritients during childhood either, fat deposits in the right places, hell yeah, she might survive a pregnancy.

    But you dont see all that, oh no, you “value her beauty”.

    Well, arent you special.

    I would at least take one thing from PUAs, it is a business transaction unless she wants more.

    You let her take the lead when it comes to commitment. you dont puke it all out before she even asks.

  97. orion2 says:

    @ Joe

    Watch what she does, not what she says, especially not some BS innuendo.

  98. deti says:

    @ Joe:

    “all too often men may not know full well she isn’t interested. She often holds out a glimmer of hope causing men to assume something is there that just needs time to develop when in reality there is absolutely nothing.”

    This is why the stock advice is:

    1. limit the time, money and resources a man expends on a particular woman until he knows the interest is reciprocal

    2. NEXT a woman immediately if there’s no reciprocation or no indicators of sexual/romantic interest

    3. If all you’re getting a is a “glimmer of hope”, NEXT.

    4. If she says how great a friend you are, NEXT.

    5. If the only time you ever hear from her is when she needs something, NEXT.

    6. If you have any doubts – any at all – about whether she’s interested, NEXT.

  99. Watch what she does, not what she says, especially not some BS innuendo.

    Yup. It is not so much what she says as what she does. Talk is cheap. Actions speak so much louder. And the BS innuendo, when you smell it on her, call her out on it.

    Its like when I started doing the on-line dating thing in the late 1990s (before I got married.) We’d meet for coffee somewhere first (safety sake, both for me and for her) and sometimes she’d bring up that what she really wants is “friends first.”

    (her) “Well, I do the on-line dating to meet nice guys. But they have to know that it is friends first.”

    (me) “What does that mean exactly?”

    (her) “What do you mean, what does that mean?”

    (me) “Why do you want to be friends with me first?”

    (her) “Well… ” (long pause) “…I have to get to know you first?”

    (me) “That is why we are dating. We romance each other.”

    (her) “Yeah but… I don’t really…”

    (me) “Don’t really what?”

    (her getting up from the table indignantly) “Look this isn’t going to work out…”

    (me) “Of course it isn’t. Men and women can’t be friends.”

    (her) “WHAT!?!?”

    (me) “You heard me. Men and women can not be friends. I have all the friends I could ever want or need and they are all men. I hang out with them, they are my friends. We play football together, go out drinking, go on vacations together, go to sporting events together, go to movies together, get dinner, help each other out when we need it, everything. But I am not going to ever romance them, sleep with them, have sex with them, marry them, or raise children with them. That is why I am dating. There is a purpose behind this.”

    (her now smiling) “Look I have to be friends with the guy first before I even get to that step…”

    (me) “No you don’t. Now you are lying to me. If I really rung your chimes, really got you going and you were intimately interested in me, you wouldn’t have asked to be friends first. What you really want is for me to be some guy who just hangs out with you and does things for you, gives you attention without us being an item.” (now I’m getting up) “Forget it.”

    (her) “What, so I can’t have guys for friends?”

    (me) “Sure you can. I just wont be one of them. I don’t on-line date to make friends with women. I hope you find lots of friends.”

  100. Elspeth says:

    She often holds out a glimmer of hope causing men to assume something is there that just needs time to develop when in reality there is absolutely nothing.

    Uh-uh. Men have hamsters too apparently. What exactly is a “glimmer of hope?” Being nice and friendly? Showing appreciation? A hug?

    These are all things women do with their girlfriends. They are not glimmers of hope. When a woman is interested, it’s usually quite ovious.

    We human beings are masters at seeing what we want to see.

  101. while I agree more with dalrocka’s biblical approach, tom leykis also warns against being a beta orbiter — he teaches menz how to manz ups zlzozozo

    tom is closer to heartietsststz probably, but all three, tom, dalrock, and heartiste exalt MANLY HONOR over what is taught in today’s schoolsz and churchesz zlzlozoz

    have a good wekekenedsz!!

  102. feeriker says:

    I agree 100%, but all to often men may not know full well she isn’t interested. She often holds out a glimmer of hope causing men to assume something is there that just needs time to develop when in reality there is absolutely nothing.

    Most self-aware men who orbit come realize within a very short time that they have ZE-RO (or less) chance of getting anything “serious” out of the object of their desires. This is why, in both my experience and observation, “beta orbiting” tends to be a very short-term avocation for individual men. They eventually realize the sheer futility of their actions and decide that they just do not want to waste any more excessive amounts of time and energy on a woman they know represents a sexual “dead end.”

    What you describe in your last sentence is called “manipulation.” Men actually recognize this for what it is far more frequently and quickly than they’re giving credit for and most don’t take kindly to it at all.

  103. Dalrock says:

    @Deti

    The validity of the comparison between the slut and the beta orbiter is in the freewheeling way they offer their most valuable assets to the opposite sex in serially futile attempts to gain what they want.

    The other aspect of similarity is both are trying to shortcut the rules in order to get better than they think they could otherwise get. From a Christian perspective, the big, glaring shortcut is marriage. JTL is claiming that it is noble to wear his heart on his sleeve, and fall in love with women who not only aren’t his wife, but also aren’t indicating in any serious way that they want to become his wife. He accepted a change in the prescribed order hoping to win the SMP jackpot. As you point out, that this is a foolish plan which actually worsens his chances of attracting her doesn’t change the intent. Both also embrace the idea of becoming intimate (emotionally or physically) with a series of people from the opposite sex as a path toward marriage. They are both misusing what is designed for marriage.

    @Elspeth

    Uh-uh. Men have hamsters too apparently. What exactly is a “glimmer of hope?” Being nice and friendly? Showing appreciation? A hug?

    These are all things women do with their girlfriends. They are not glimmers of hope. When a woman is interested, it’s usually quite ovious.

    We human beings are masters at seeing what we want to see.

    Your original point and the point about male hamsters is right on. However, I don’t think the woman who attracts beta orbiters is entirely innocent. Women are very good at stringing men along in this way, and some women will even temporarily ratchet up the sexual contact if they feel a valued orbiter is at risk of escaping her orbit. Even worse, look at the number of women who openly admit to marrying a beta orbiter in order to keep him in orbit (until they divorce). It is true that for the average woman this is far more instinctive than for the average man, but being naturally good at using people isn’t a moral plus.

    But none of this should change our focus when protecting sluts of both sexes. The only effective way to protect them is to impress on them the need to stop volunteering where they have no business volunteering.

  104. Hopeful says:

    IBB

    What an exchange! Women read that “friends first” stuff all the time. It’s in a lot of dating advice which is why you hear it so much (well, not you specifically, but eligible bachelors). It usually goes something along the lines of “if your friends first, then you know it’s about more than just sex.” The advice usually assumes all men want is sex. Probably most of the men that particular woman dealt with made sexual moves very early (probably players, although some may have just been desperate) so she figures she’ll stop that before it starts (because you know, another assumption, women just can’t help it and she doesn’t want to “find herself pregnant”). Perhaps some women, like the beta-orbiters, assume friendship will develop into something bigger, deeper?

  105. feeriker says:

    @IBB @ 10/11/13 @ 3:21PM:

    What I wouldn’t give to watch a “Candid Camera” segment of exactly such a date!

  106. Opus says:

    The rise of the Beta Orbiter (and I fear I may have done some of it in my time) is the price paid for free and easy access to women. Once upon a time there were two sorts of women, Paid Whores and Nice Girls, the latter whom one courted with a view to marriage. That courting, although longer than speed-dating, was of limited duration.

    The problem for the Orbiter is that it does not start out that way. Some women play hard to get and all start off as complete strangers. Not all women jump into bed within minutes of meeting you, and so there may be a period of courting and one way to get into bed with her is to show that you may be just the guy she would like to marry or at least sleep with. Unfortunately this enables a woman to prick-tease.

    Most literature of love is not of the unrequited sort (Romeo and Juliet, Tristan and Isolde had the hots for each other) and Robert and Clara Schumann were kept apart by her father until she was twenty one (wow!). It is people like Don Quixote who are mocked for pointlessly pursuing a farm girl whilst convincing himself that she is the Lady Dulcinea or Malvolio in Twelfth Night – yet they are older men. Then there are people like Calaf, or Pericles (in Turandot and The Prince of Tyre respectively) who are prepared to risk death to marry a woman they have never even met. The most desirable women (like Turandot or Elena Makropuolos) are also the coldest. Being a PUA like Don Giovanni has however always been regarded as socially disgraceful and he (courtesy of American Citizen, Dante expert and first Professor of Italian at Columbia University) Lorenzo da Ponte to my mind gets it spot on at the beginning of that Mozart penned Opera (for which Da Ponte provided the libretto) where Giovanni – a man who had scored with over a thousand women and that was just in Spain – suddenly finds himself facing a false rape allegation on one side and on the other have a former conquest wanting to marry him – Da Ponte only failed to make Donna Elvira allege that she was pregnant. As for Donna Anna (the Rape accuser) surely her ‘boyfriend’ Don Ottavio who clearly has never got anything as she seems to be saving it for her father, in his beautiful aria Dalla Sua Pace reveals himself to be the ultimate in Beta Orbiters – not that that stops Giovanni who is soon being led-on and on her wedding day by peasant girl Zerlina. Being dragged down to hell is surely the only place for people like that.

    Getting the balance right is not always easy, and one can never tell when Cupid will fire his love darts, and one finds oneself drawn in like a space-ship hurtling towards a Black Hole. Ones friends cannot see what one sees in the woman. They say there is no escape from a black hole.

  107. earl says:

    “A Beta Orbiter is a man who values a women’s aura and beauty. Feelings that actually mean something.”

    Male feelings mean very little to women…male action on the other hand.

    And talking is not an action…she can do that with her girlfriends. Teach her something, take her to activities…walking with her is better than sharing feelings.

  108. orion2 says:

    @ Elspeth

    Uh-uh. Men have hamsters too apparently. What exactly is a “glimmer of hope?” Being nice and friendly? Showing appreciation? A hug?

    It can work that way and then its truly mostly on him.

    However, a lot of times there is sexual innuendo, there is the active attempt to keep a man as a fall back option and if you think about it, a bit of sexual banter is a good deal for someone you can rely on when the SHTF.

    Now these women can rob a man of years of his life and a part of his soul and the official narrative being what it is, I cannot blame him, especially if he is young and inexperienced, from not knowing any better.

    I certainly did not know any better,

    I do now and somehow that is not appreciated either…..

  109. Michael says:

    @ Elspeth

    Ah. I see. Thank you.

  110. Michael says:

    @ innocentbystanderboston

    Was there a second date? Lol.

  111. Michael says:

    @ Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    This video “class” is interesting however the host is espousing predatory interactions with women. This “class” is not conducive to marriage. He says you should kick a women out after having sex with her. This means the guy is burning his bridge. Following this advise means you would be alone your whole life. The only girl would your reciprocate such behavior is unqualified to be a wife.

  112. Was there a second date? Lol.

    That “exchange” (much that it was) was hypotheitical. But I will admit it happend more than once. I had lots and lots of on-line date zeros, lots of them. And the majority of those (either through my pre-qualifications, or hers) never made it to date-1. No point.

    On-line dating has got to be the easiest way to date and meet people in the entire world. It simply has to be. Right off the bat, every single person you are looking at is approachable. So men don’t have to worry about the I don’t want to appear like a creep for asking out someone who is unavailable aspect of it. Just put together a form introduction letter, alter it slightly to account for what she put in her profile as far as interests go, and send it out. When I did that, I had about an 80% response rate and of those 80%, I pretty much met every single one of them for a cup of coffee. (cheap, easy, simple, no dressing up, no fuss-no muss)

    When you are at Starbucks on a Sunday before church meeting someone for the first time, you are much more relaxed. As are they. Play the 20 questions game there, and if you two hit it off, exchange phone numbers and head off to church. If not, do like what I did and tell them you have all the friends you need.

  113. When you are at Starbucks on a Sunday before church meeting someone for the first time, you are much more relaxed.

    Relaxed?
    Check this out and tell me how…
    http://www.energyfiend.com/the-complete-guide-to-starbucks-caffeine

  114. Martian Bachelor says:

    Modern wuv can be a beautiful thang…

    @The Hub

    Fez: Hyde, how come you do not have a girlfriend? Maybe if you did something with your hair… (He plays with Hyde’s hair.)

    Just then a girl walks into the Hub.

    Chrissy: Hey, you! Is there a motel in this puke hole?

    Hyde: There’s a Sleepy Time Lodge three puke holes over.

    Chrissy: Thanks. I’m Chrissy.

    Hyde: I’m Hyde.

    Chrissy: Who cares? You wanna, uh… hop on my Vespa and uh, show me where it is?

    Hyde looks outside to see a shiny blue motor-scooter.

    Hyde: Mother of god, I think I love you.

    Chrissy: Love is an outdated concept used by industrialists to keep women subservient.

    In Hyde’s mind. He sees Chrissy as an angel with two electric guitars for wings and an anarchy “A” for a halo.
    Song: “Anarchy in the UK ” – Sex Pistols

    Hyde: Mother of god I do love you!

    Hyde and Chrissy are together driving on her motorcycle, going down a street with various signs flying past: Woolworth, Fatso Burger, Rusty’s Hardware, Woolworth, Rusty’s Hardware, Woolworth, Rusty’s Hardware, Yield, Woolworth, Fatso Burger, No Trespassing, Woolworth, Woolworth. The camera zooms in and they kiss.
    Song: “I’m So Bored w/the USA” – The Clash

    Cut to Hyde and Chrissy in a motel room. Chrissy is putting out a cigarette.
    Song: “New Rose ” – Damned

    Chrissy: Who would’ve thought I’d meet a radical number like you in a slag heap town like this?

    Hyde: I can’t believe you’re just passing through, man. You’re dark, you’re obnoxious, you’re dangerously paranoid. Until tonight I didn’t even know a girl like you existed!

    Chrissy: Has it occurred to you that we’re on a bed?

    Hyde: Oh, man, this is so perfect. You’re easy, too?

    Chrissy: (Nodding) Yeah. See, the Establishment doesn’t want us having sex because they know it makes us feel good, right?

    Hyde: Yeah.

    Chrissy: So, if we can feel good on our own, what do we need the Establishment for? So every time we have sex, it’s a huge protest!

    Hyde: You know what? I think I feel a huge protest coming on.

    They kiss…

    – from “That `70s Show”, Punk Chick (Season 1, Episode 22; 1999)

  115. Please continue, I would like to hear about why girls allow these “friendships” to continue.

    That’s the easiest answer in the world: they enjoy them. They enjoy having a guy to talk to without the pressure of romance. They like the little gifts and the compliments and the attention on tap. They like having a strong back and arms they can call on when they need a couch moved, without feeling like they have to offer something in exchange.

    And yes, they know what’s happening, but mostly on a subconscious level. They don’t sit around thinking, “The idea of kissing Jim makes my skin crawl, but I bet I can get him to come change my tire.” They mostly just think, “Jim’s such a great friend; I don’t know what I’d do without him.” But if they take it out and look at it, they do know. That’s the awesome part of that video, when he gets them to name their Best Guy Friend, and then asks the key question: do you think he wants more. When they think about it head-on, they do know.

    But they also figure all’s fair in love and war, you know? She didn’t promise Jim anything she’s not giving him. She even told him she just wants to be friends. She probably even talks to him about her boyfriend troubles, which to her is like waving a big flag saying, “I don’t want you that way.” If he wants to hang around and do her favors despite all that, that’s his decision. She figures he’s a big boy and can make his own choices.

    Except for the super-alphas, men don’t have “orbiters” very often. It did happen to me once, though, when a woman basically offered to service me whenever I liked in exchange for long talks. I tried to tell myself she was a big girl (in more than one way, unfortunately) and knew what she was getting into, and I wasn’t promising her anything more, but I couldn’t really convince myself it was right — not just from the obvious Christian perspective, but from the practical view of how it was likely to end. But then, society isn’t always telling me how I deserve to be worshipped for my sex. That changes the frame for the girl who is orbited — she’s routinely told that people doing nice things for her is her due.

  116. Ashley lakes says:

    I was brought here after reading “the normlization of the trashy single mother.” I have spent hours over the last few weeks reading your articles and comments. I love this!

    I was outraged after the pastor at my church said that the bible calls the church to care for widows–and that means the single mothers–not actual widows. We are now doing lots of projects to help the single mothers in our community. After all, if my husband left me I would be another single mother. When I said I would be willing to help women whose husbands died leaving them single or divorced them–but not women who left their husband or were never married I was told I was judgemental and a prude.

    Also the eligable men should try to marry these women.

    MarcusD—try attracting a man when you are young and pretty like Sue Heck–but all the other young women are willing to send men pics of their body parts have sex on the 3rd date and walk around in clothes that show everything and their is lots of porn so you look super plain in comparison. Also when I had a boyfriend one of the girls from my highshool offered and had sex with him. I was unsilling to have sex b4 marriage. I had been thinking about getting married to him.

    To be fair to him he was 17 and I am sure
    she made it very difficult for him to say no.

    Thankfully I found a great man and got married in spite of all these things at the age of 22.

    [D: Welcome Ashley. The sexual revolution certainly has made it harder for women who want to marry. I touched on the tragedy of this from a satirical perspective here.

  117. Ashley lakes says:

    I mean according to the preaching the men in my church are called to fall on their sowards and marry the single mothers in the community.

  118. Ashley lakes says:

    I think that judging means thinking that you are better than this person. I know that I have made mistakes and God can forgive any mistake through the power of redemption, but encouraging sin is not the way to improve our society family chur h self or relationship with God!

  119. That said, men have to take responsibility for their actions when they orbit a woman that they want when they know full well she isn’t interested. A little masculine pride, if you will. — Elspeth

    I agree 100%, but all too often men may not know full well she isn’t interested. She often holds out a glimmer of hope causing men to assume something is there that just needs time to develop when in reality there is absolutely nothing. — Joe

    The communication between a boy and a girl on this point is so incredibly bad, and both think that the other couldn’t possibly mean what he or she is saying. For boys, the problem is what I called the poisonous lie: that you can befriend a woman into wanting you. For girls, it’s the fact that they just can’t believe that boys can’t see the enormous, obvious (to them) signals they send. The lie — which girls can’t really even comprehend, because it’s so self-evidently false to them — cancels out the signals.

    A girl can send every signal she can think of that she’s not interested in a boy. She can come right out and say, “I just don’t like you that way. I’ve never felt the slightest spark between us. I can’t imagine us ever getting romantic at all.” And the boy can still think, “Not yet you don’t, but that’s because I haven’t befriended you enough yet.” The lie makes the lack of chemistry irrelevant — in fact, it can allow him to twist that into a positive, because she may toss in somewhere what a great friend he is. That, combined with the lie, makes him think, “Aha, it’s starting to work! The friendship part is kicking in, so I just have to stay the course, and the romance will follow.”

    It’s true that some girls do things to keep their beta orbiters orbiting — a touch on the arm here, a flip of the hair there, a tight hug if he seems to be drifting away. I’ve seen that, and it’s not nice. But I don’t think that’s typically the case, or at least I don’t see that when I look back at my orbiting days with hindsight. I think the girls I orbited really did try to be straight with me, and when I insisted on being “just friends” anyway (because of the lie that friendship is the foot in the door of romance), eventually they shrugged and figured why not? I was nice to talk to and could lift heavy stuff, so why not be friends?

    Like the girls in the video, on some level they knew I was hoping for more, but at the same time they couldn’t see how I could be that stupid, since they’d made it so clear that more would never happen. It all comes back to the big lie that friendship –> romance: boys buy it, while girls instinctively know it’s not true.

  120. Ashley lakes says:

    One woman in my Sunday school class she is a scichiatrist and thinks that she knows better than anyone also she is a single mother. She made little comments about how much harder she has to work than a stay-at-home mom does.

    In America we value hard work; that is good. But you choose this uphill path.

    After I talk about cooking, sleeping in, running she says “must be nice.”

    Needless to say it has gotten very awkward at church for me.

  121. Beta Orbiter = Male Slut? Don’t see the comparison. A pickup artist is a male slut. Not a Beta Orbiter.

    You missed the point of the comparison. Men and women don’t commit to each other for the same reasons. A man commits to marriage to get sex from a woman (other things are nice too, but sex is the main thing). A woman commits to marriage to get investment from a man — his financial, physical, and emotional investment. Those are the things that we need from each other, that we can’t provide as well for ourselves or get from platonic friends.

    So, if we call a woman a slut because she gives men sex without demanding that they commit to marriage, then the equivalent in a man isn’t the PUA, because he’s not offering women investment, the thing they can’t get anywhere else. He’s only offering sex, something they can get easily anytime. No, the male equivalent of the female slut is the beta orbiter, who gives a girl his investment of time, money (often), and emotional support, without requiring her to commit to marriage to get it.

  122. infowarrior1 says:

    @Eva
    “but I no longer believe that the New Testament belongs in the Bible or that it has anything to do with God’s nature.”

    Start there:

  123. Michael says:

    “the male equivalent of the female slut is the beta orbiter, who gives a girl his investment of time, money (often), and emotional support, without requiring her to commit to marriage to get it.”

    But it’s not a conscious transaction. He is just romanticizing and hoping for the best. If he is in the friends zone, he is hoping for sex, but this is not comparable to women who spread their legs for X number of partners.

  124. Michael says:

    I see the comparison but it’s apples and oranges. Saying a beta male orbiter is a “slut” is to insiderish and not something most people will be able to understand. I’m just saying.

  125. Ashley lakes says:

    This is where my point intersects with the article: the whores monopolize the men. This can make it hard for a woman like me who is not willing to become a whore, even to get a husband.

  126. Anonymous Reader says:

    I see the comparison but it’s apples and oranges. Saying a beta male orbiter is a “slut” is to insiderish and not something most people will be able to understand.

    Many things are not understood by “most people” at first. That does not negate the truth of those things.

  127. Ashley lakes says:

    It is also true that the tall symmetrical rich (and dominant) men monopolize the women in the system that we have now. I think that everyone would be happier if they stopped trying to make themself happy and followed Gods plan as laid out in the bible.

  128. Michael says:

    @ Anonymous Reader

    “Many things are not understood by “most people” at first. That does not negate the truth of those things.”

    – True. But I can’t help but be reminded of an acronym I learned early in my career called KISS. It stands for “keep it simple stupid”. If your too cryptic people won’t understand your message. That doesn’t negate the truth of it though.

    Now I realize I was a “slut” in college and beyond – for orbiting attractive white women I wanted to date (and hopefully marry) in college. Go figure. And here this entire time I thought I wasn’t getting any because I wasn’t a slut. Make sense?

  129. Dalrock says:

    @Michael

    But it’s not a conscious transaction. He is just romanticizing and hoping for the best. If he is in the friends zone, he is hoping for sex, but this is not comparable to women who spread their legs for X number of partners.

    It is exactly the same thing, especially the unconscious/rationalizing nature of it. See this post, and the quote on pump-n-dump vs serial monogamy in this post. I’ve been criticized for (ostensibly) claiming all women go into the SMP with full intentionality in posts like this one, but this has never been my argument or my point. My point has been to strip away all of the plausible deniability and rationalization, and lay it all out bare. For women examined separately each of the “accidents” may well be somewhat accidental, but they follow a very common pattern which “just happens” to result in the woman doing what feral women want to do. It is a bit different for men, as nearly all are terrible at playing the feral game (see the blogger referenced in the OP for an example). But while the card shark and the patsy have very different outcomes, both come to the table looking for easy money. As Cane Caldo pointed out in a recent post, to one degree or another we all have gone feral. It’s in the water (our culture). But the answer isn’t to defend going feral, it is to return to civilization (really to righteousness). The return requires being intentional about what we do, not acting out of animal instinct.

  130. Anonymous age 71 says:

    @Eva. on the road today to Tehuacan, second biggest city in my State of Puebla, Mexico. We went to pick up 132 pounds of rice. The state of Guerrero has a lot of homeless people and our church is taking food to the village where the pastor’s family lives. The poor people in the church usually have small fields of frijoles, and can donate them without cash. I buy rice because that costs money the poor folk don’t have. So, delays in answering, sorry.

    Sorry, I can’t give you any more advice, except that you need to find a moral code, one which has been tested over very long periods of time, and internalize it so that you will be capable of accepting external authority. All of our solutions are based on what you reject, the moral code of the New Testament. To try to adapt it to your circumstances would be ike going into the parts department of a Toyota dealer, to order pistons for your Honda.

  131. Vektor says:

    “The majority of men prefer to subjugate themselves to an exclusive deity, woman
    (they call this subjection love). This sort of personal deity has excellent qualifications
    for the satisfaction of religious needs. Woman is ever-present, and, given her own
    lack of religious need, she is divine. As she continuously makes demands, man
    never feels forsaken. She frees him from collective gods, for whose favors he would
    have to compete with others. He trusts in her because she resembles his mother, the
    deity of his childhood. His empty life is given an artificial meaning, for his every action
    is dedicated to her comfort and, later, to the comfort of her children. As a goddess,
    she can not only punish (by taking away his sense of belonging) but she can reward
    as well (through the bestowal of sexual pleasure).

    The most important requirements for woman’s divinity are, however, her propensity
    to masquerade and her stupidity. A system must either overwhelm its believers with
    its greatly superior wisdom or confuse them with its incomprehensibility As the first
    possibility is unavailable to women, they take advantage of the second. Their
    masquerade causes them to appear strange and mysterious to men; their stupidity
    makes them inaccessible to scrutiny. While intelligence shows itself in actions that
    are reasonable and logical, hence permits measurement, predictability, and control,
    stupidity shows itself in actions that are completely unreasonable, unpredictable and
    uncontrollable. Women are protected by a screen of pomp, mummery, and
    mystification as much as any Pope or dictator: they cannot be unmasked and will
    increase their power unhindered, gaining strength as they go. In return man is
    guaranteed, in the long term, a divinity in which he can deeply believe.”

    …from: The Manipulated Man – Esther Vilar

  132. Anonymous age 71 says:

    Men and women can’t be friends. Men and women can’t be friends. Men and women can’t be friends. Y’all are like a stuck record. But, all over the country where men and women work together men and women are friends.

    You talk about confusing apples and oranges. All your examples seem to involve beta orbiters, men who don’t have a sex life and are willing to tolerate kissing rear-ends in vain hopes of getting it. Of course unmarried men and women when one of them is looking for marriage and/or sex probably can’t be friends.

    I have had many woman friends in my life. We were close work friends. We did not socialize outside of work. Why? Because we were married with kids, and went home to our spouses after work. There was no beta orbiting because we had no reason to desire sex with each other. We were faithful to our spouses and had no intention of banging our work friends.

    We talked about our families in a positive way. A man probably can’t be friends with a woman who is complaining about what a vile beast her husband is. She is looking for sex.

    We would discuss domestic things like needing a new washing machine, or shopping for a car. About kids problems in school. Vacation plans.

    The closest we came to talking about sex was a friend in her 40’s one Monday told several of us, that on Saturday, she and her husband were in the bedroom enjoying the finer things of life, and the college age daughter walked in on them. She later reported that after that when her daughter came in the house in the daytime when her parents were home, she would shout, “I’m Home!” as she came in the door.

    In my case, most of my friends have been somewhat intellectual, and so we discuss that sort of intellectual things in addition to family life.

    My current best friend, a married woman, and I have been friends for a number of years now. We consider each other to be more brother and sister than friends, and her husband agrees with this. When we first became friends, one night we had a short talk each explaining why we were faithful to our spouses and why we expected to always be faithful. I took that as a drawing a line in the sand for our friendship, and it has worked really well. Except for the fact we are never, ever alone together, (This village is almost as gossipy as Peyton Place) witnesses would almost certainly find out friendship to look like brother and sister.

    I worked with many men and women over the years who were friends of this sort. That is work friends. Perhaps eat together in the company cafeteria, but not go out together. I worked in my 40’s with a woman I was buddies with in High School; we ate together in the cafeteria, and eventually it was assumed we were romantically linked. My wife was also friends with her, which has been the case with most of my work friends. But, only after a time as friends. If I go back to my city of 31 year, I will probably visit her (alone in her house).

    I realize society has changed for the worst, so it may well be there are less work friends than in the 90’s or earlier. But, I have learned in my life that in general people tend to behave pretty much the same, on the same distribution curve in all times and in all places.

  133. Ton says:

    Can men and women be friends? Not if he’s a beta. The dynamics change when sex is easier for a man to come by. The real question is, why? Women are not very interesting outside of sex and them domestic chores for you.

  134. Saying a beta male orbiter is a “slut” is to insiderish and not something most people will be able to understand.

    That’s true, it’s not a concept you can just throw out there and expect non-insiders to understand. But it’s a useful point to make to those who will take the time to consider it, because it can show men why they need to stop doing it. The beta orbiter needs to see that his behavior isn’t some sort of noble sacrificial love, but the equivalent of a girl throwing her body at men hoping one of them will love her.

    Anonymous 71, there is such a thing as the exception that proves the rule. One of the exceptions is the man who is alpha enough to have achieved true indifference to women’s desires. If he’s satisfied with the woman/women he already has, he may be able to be friends with other women — as long as they don’t end up too attracted to him and mess things up in the other direction. Also, we’re not talking about work friends, people you’re only friends with because circumstances happen to put you together. We’re talking about a “best friend,” a person you can talk about anything with, a person you can call to bail you out of jail.

    When a college girl says, “Oh, my best friend is a guy,” she doesn’t mean a guy she happens to have some classes with so they chat now and then. She means a guy she knows she can call in the middle of the night and he’ll come running no matter what the situation — and there is no way in hell she will ever sleep with him.

  135. Taylor says:

    Because we chose to be vulnerable and self-sacrificing; a requirement for love. And when it was over, though the echoes of the painful experiences reverberate in the depths of our being, we picked ourselves up, dusted ourselves off, and we keep pressing onward.

    After a reframing,
    We chose to love each other through painful experiences and trying times. After the struggle, we picked ourselves up, dusted off, and continued in the covenant marriage. We know that our commitment to one another is the true expression of our love.

  136. greyghost says:

    Ton you got that right. I don’t even consider a vacation a vacation if it includes even the wife. Women are not friends. Orbitting some chick including a wife is not relaxing at all. Unless you are actively screwing a woman she has no business in your business.

  137. imnobody00 says:

    Well, what Deti says at the 3:21 comment is the Truth. It should be included as an eleventh commandment. This is the first red-pill truth I learned, 20 years algo and it has spared me of much pain.

    Somebody said that it is difficult for men to have orbiters and it is. But I happen to have one female orbiter right now and I understand the women I have criticized so much. I could bang this woman but I don’t want to harm somebody who is good to me. But it is difficult to reject help when it is given so freely and easily, even without asking. Life is hard and sometimes a bit of help is so necessary…It takes somebody very strong to reject it once and again, knowing that you really needed

  138. Opus says:

    Anon71 asserts that men and women can be friends and indeed says that he has and has had a fair number of female friends. Either Anon71 is a Beta Orbiter or those women want him to bone them – given what he has written on other occasions I am guessing the latter but he is and wishes to remain faithful to his wife; hence the denial. Nature knows nothing about friendship of the sexes and from the youngest age little boys and girls sex-segregate; indeed boys will NOT play with girls. Boys enter the Male Dominance Hierarchy and Girls join their own Swingset where they are all beautiful Princesses: in time the boys will pair off with the girls but for the purpose of reproduction. As men and women enter older age they again separate. Modern life has forced men and women into the same space for the purposes of work (the corporate cubicle) and in that artificial space a fiction prevails that men and women are asexual. In that space the men occupy the same position as Eunuchs in an Arabic Harem.

    These problems may of course be worse in the Puritan North than the Latino lands, where it has to be said women do not seem to regard all men as certifiable Rapists, and it is that ease of relating which perhaps leads Anon71 to his view.

  139. orion2 says:

    Can men and women be friends?

    Yes. in the same way women befriend each other.

    Meaning, shifting social alliances that can change and be dissolved at any given moment.

    Friendship, as in, I have not talked to that guy for years but I know he has my back when push comes to shove, no, this is something you cannot have with a woman.

    So, if you are “friends” with a woman, she is getting something out of it, you better know what it is and you better know what you are getting out of it too.

    If someone wants to call that “friendship” ok, but personally, I have no use for it for very few women bring enough to the table in non sexual terms to make it worth my while.

  140. Elspeth says:

    Also, we’re not talking about work friends, people you’re only friends with because circumstances happen to put you together. We’re talking about a “best friend,” a person you can talk about anything with, a person you can call to bail you out of jail.

    When a college girl says, “Oh, my best friend is a guy,” she doesn’t mean a guy she happens to have some classes with so they chat now and then. She means a guy she knows she can call in the middle of the night and he’ll come running no matter what the situation — and there is no way in hell she will ever sleep with him.

    That’s exactly what I meant.

  141. Anonymous Reader says:

    Saying a beta male orbiter is a “slut” is to insiderish and not something most people will be able to understand.

    Not that long ago, saying a man was a “beta male orbiter” was too insiderish and not something most people would understand….

  142. Michael says:
    October 11, 2013 at 5:26 pm
    @ Great Books For Men GreatBooksForMen GBFM (TM) GB4M (TM) GR8BOOKS4MEN (TM) lzozozozozlzo (TM)

    Michael says: “This video “class” is interesting however the host is espousing predatory interactions with women. This “class” is not conducive to marriage. He says you should kick a women out after having sex with her. This means the guy is burning his bridge. Following this advise means you would be alone your whole life. The only girl would your reciprocate such behavior is unqualified to be a wife.”

    Actually Michael, modern culture is not conducive to marriage. Have you read the news lately?

    Leykis is simply teaching men how to act in the GIVEN culture, while waiting for it to change or trying to change it.

    Michael, perhaps you should direct your anger towards the family court system and the feminist studies classes/law schools which teach how to transfer assets from men to the government, while also buttoccking and deouling womensz in secrtely taped neoocnthz buttehxing sesssiosn zlzuzizlzizzloozlzoz

  143. Buck says:

    Off Topic, sorry;
    Dalrock, here’s one for ya;
    AARP magazine, Oct/Nov 2013, page 70:

    “Men Who Don’t Cheat, a wry look into the mind of the male monogamist.”
    by Joe Queenan
    (ok ok, I’m over 50 and they send it to my house… a quick glance between the mail box and trash can is all I’m guilty of usually…geesh)

    The gist of the article, men are pigs and the only reason they don’t cheat is….ready…
    1) Many men are incredibly lazy
    2) Some men are startlingly ugly
    3) Lots of married men are cheap
    4) Men fear being caught …(read they’re stupid)
    5) Affairs are time consuming…(read men are lazy.. again)
    6) Bores can’t get dates

    Your deconstruction of this would be too much fun to miss!

  144. Bucho says:

    @Buck
    October 12, 2013 at 12:05 pm

    So does Joe Queenan fall into one of these categories? God forbid that there are men out there who love their wives and want to honor their commitment. But, of course, in our society, that’s not what sells magazines.

  145. JDG says:

    To me it doesn’t matter if men and women can be friends. I’m more concerned about whether or not they should be. This essay accurately points out many of the problems that are manifested from such encounters. Before marriage I made it clear to Mrs JDG that there would be no such friend ships for either one of us. We don’t need or want the potential problems associated with it.

  146. Lovekraft says:

    first comment after being in a foxhole for the past three months.

    Se il vostro desiderio è quello che si può ottenere, sarete delusi.
    corruzione continuerà con o senza il vostro contributo.
    solo continuare a ritmo di tamburo eterno di Dio.

  147. Zippy says:

    The idea that calling a beta orbiter a male version of a slut is too insiderish cracked me up. The Venn diagram intersection set of people who actually know what “beta orbiter” means and yet can’t understand why his behavior is the male equivalent of sluttiness could probably fit in the bathroom of a 777.

  148. Zippy says:

    Anon71:
    I’ve always found it rather easy to be friends, genuinely friends, with women too. But as it is a virtual certainty that I am an unusual case, I’m not sure that adds much to the discussion. Another thing to consider is the possibility that social conditions have changed enough to make it far less likely for younger people.

    Heck, modernity has even partially ruined friendship between men with its homoerotic obsessions. Unleashing sex outside of marriage damages all forms friendship to some degree or other. How do the guys in this discussion exclude the possibility that they themselves have closeted gay beta orbiters that they only think are friends?

  149. Lurker No. 9 says:

    Please forgive if this is off topic, but I am honestly curious about something.

    Now, let’s assume for the sake of argument that everything on this blog is right and true. That women are solipsistic and all that other terrible stuff.

    The question is…why would you want to have anything to do with that to begin with? Even if you were sure it was something you could stay on top of with that silly “headship” stuff. Aside from the effort involved, it makes you wonder what it means, that women are supposedly this way to begin with.

    Of course, I have a better view of women than that.

  150. Zippy says:

    Lurker no 9:
    why would you want to have anything to do with that to begin with?

    Children are notoriously rebellious, ignorant, and selfish. Why have anything to do with them either?

    Mind you, some men (MGTOWs) have indeed simply written off having anything to do with women. It is kind of the modern, vapid, materialist, spiritually empty version of the monastery.

  151. thewerewife says:

    I’ve come here really late (via Instapundit), and I don’t know if anyone has already brought this up, but here goes nothing: Our host describes the idolatry of non-marital, unrequited romantic love as a form of “New Age,” modern claptrap… but it bears a remarkable resemblance to the medieval French trope of “courtly love,” in which the noble knight devotes his whole soul to the cold, beautiful lady who is usually married to some other, higher-ranking man. If they ever do consummate this romantic passion, the results are tragic: Tristram and Iseult, Lancelot and Guinevere, and so on. Still, the poets celebrate these slow-motion disasters as the height of life lived at its peak. Go figure. Just goes to show that King Solomon was right again: There IS nothing new under the sun.

    [D: Welcome!]

  152. orion2 says:

    @ Lurker No. 9

    Well, because sex.

    And because they can be quite entertaining.

    But its true that the normal result of swallowing the red pill, is first somewhat PUAish and then somehwhat MGTOWish.

    Meaning, if it is raining sluts, I would like to get wet, thank you, but marriage?

    Children?

    Probably not.

    Plus, I had a better view of women too.

    A few years of involuntary celibacy cured me just fine.

    Alas, though this is not quite a Game site, it is heavily inspired by it, and Game as such works, sometimes shockingly so. The problem is of course that you cannot see it working without ditching your “better view of women” because if they were what you believe them to be we would all be talking out of your ass and never get laid.

    Could they be more?

    Yes.

    Are they more these days?

    Some of them?

    A minority?

  153. Drew says:

    Hey Dalrock, have you seen this article?

    http://communities.washingtontimes.com/neighborhood/legally-speaking/2013/oct/7/divorce-side-effect-obamacare-healthcare-reform/

    PS: sorry this isn’t related to your post, but its an interesting divorce calculus article.

  154. Ton says:

    I can only conclude GreyGhost, that men who have female friends, genuine friends are particularly effeminate or have effeminate pursuits. I have a hard time grasping having female co workers or why a man would want to earn his keep in a manner women are capable of ( besides a secretary or some such)

  155. Ton says:

    Drew, the whole system in the usa is set up to extract resources from middle class White men and reallocate those resources to other voting blocks, rich and poor. That obamacare will help do that/ inspire divorce is not a surprise and is moat likely a deliberate feature.

  156. Micha Elyi says:

    The use of a letter from a fictitious grandfather is a smart literary trick to package new age foolishness to seem like old school wisdom.
    –Dalrock

    Trouble is, today’s 70-something grandfather was likely a young adult in the 1960s or ’70s and what he thinks is wisdom is thickly saturated with “new age foolishness” even if he thinks he’s preserved the “old school wisdom”. In this second decade of the 21st century one must look all the way back to people who were old enough to be married and have school-age children before the Flapper Era of the Roaring ’20s* for “old school wisdom” of the genuine, hard-core kind.

    *The little kids of the 1920s grew up to become the parents of the so-called ’60s Generation, the high-school and college-age youth of the 1960s.

  157. Kent Wood says:

    There seems to be a lot of focus here on the girls, but guys have to take responsibility for themselves. We’re young and we get a crush on a girl, and then we buy into a myth that says that if we somehow prove ourselves to this girl she’ll want us and we’ll be happy. It’s a dangerous myth, and as men we need to be prepared (and prepare our children) to face dangerous things. Pointing fingers, assigning blame and demanding apologies is…for the women folks. I hear too many ‘Born Again Alphas’ doing just that.

    To me, the cure is not ‘women must change’ or ‘women must repent’ or even ‘feminism must die’. The cure is Honesty.

    For all the girls I ‘beta chased’ as a youngster I NEVER ONCE opened my mouth and said, “I don’t want to be your friend. I’m in love with you and want you for my very own. Kissing, dinners by candle light, the whole shebang.”

    Why didn’t I do that? Cowardice and laziness. I didn’t want the illusion to end. I already KNEW what the answer was, with each and every girl. They saved my from the challenge of actually getting involved with some of the many sweet and interesting girls who took an active interest in me but I was just too ‘busy’ to deal with.

    And yes, the girls I chased could have been honest too. One of them actually was, and told me in no uncertain terms that my puppy-ish devotion was absolutely, unequivocably not wanted. It hurt, but I never chased her again and she saved me a LOT of time that was then mine to spend as I chose.

    Did she break my heart? Yep, with a ball peen hammer! But only after I put it out there, time and time again, where it CLEARLY was not wanted. She acted (smartly) in self defense.

    Guys – If you love a girl, tell her and face the music, be it sweet or be it sour.

    Girls – When you know in your heart that a guy is really pining for you and you know you’re not interested. Tell him. You don’t even have to be nice about it.

    Guys and Girls – If you partook in either side of this equation in the past and you’re here reading this article now, move forward. Don’t look back and be as honest and gentle with your fellow brothers and sisters as you are able.

    I ‘fall in love’ all the time and very easily. I have an active imagination and can see something potentially wonderful and sexy in almost every woman I meet. I don’t pursue it, though, even when the interest and attraction is reflected back to me, any more than I would steal a diamond left unattended at a jewelry store. My marriage and family are the most important thing, even if they are not always the shiniest and most attractive thing in any given moment.

    So for me, being ‘friendly’ with women is a great pleasure, but being ‘friends’ is something I avoid, quietly, from the very start. I know the dangers from hard experience, and in the interest of protecting my family and myself, I am always on the lookout for ‘dangerous things’.

    As a man, that’s the job God gave me.

  158. Anonymous age 71 says:

    What I see happening here is you guys have decided men and women can’t be friends. Any evidence to the contrary is simply explained or re-defined or insulted away until you are satisfied your original (wrong) theory is correct. Tell me the part again how men are more logical than women are.

    What we are seeing happens to many groups of people. They squelch any difference in experience until they become very narrow minded and are no longer able to learn new things. Like Churchianity, just different topics.

    I readily admitted that men who want to be friends with women must LEARN how to do it. Those who have not learned to do so may well erroneously assume it can’t be done. Since of course they can’t. No more evidence needed, right?

    Zippy says:
    October 12, 2013 at 5:54 pm

    >>I’ve always found it rather easy to be friends, genuinely friends, with women too.

    Exactly! Another man understands how it is, because he has had the same experience. Thank you for sharing your similar experience.

    Let me point out a historical fact. In the 80’s, we FRA/MRA’s had newsletters and sometimes wrote each other by snail mail as well. Most MRA/FRA in the 80’s were men who had close woman friends as I described here. That is no longer the case, as you all have made clear. Notice how several men have stated that women are only for sex. If a feminist came here and accused you of that, you would probably be angry at her.

    >>Another thing to consider is the possibility that social conditions have changed enough to make it far less likely for younger people.

    I find this very likely. I do think society is changing very fast, but that only means men and women being friends is less likely, not non-existent.

    >>How do the guys in this discussion exclude the possibility that they themselves have closeted gay beta orbiters that they only think are friends?

    Hee, hee. Good one, and highly probable.

    @Ton: >>I can only conclude GreyGhost, that men who have female friends, genuine friends are particularly effeminate or have effeminate pursuits.

    Do see my comment above on this posting about “insulted away.” In fact, this was a very childish insult. I originally included an offer to meet at the cemetery at sunrise to see who is effeminate and who is not, but realized Dalrock would not like that, so I edited it out…

    In my case, we had around 300 electronic technicians, 18 were women. Our repair support people were almost all women, and we worked together. I must wonder, have you ever held a job where men and women work together but the men mostly have a different job in the same system?

  159. kuis says:

    The slut is a slut because she wants to be; it is not necessarily to find love. The beta orbiter, on the other hand, is simply misguided; blinded hopelessly by romantic ideals. They are not really equivalent in my view.

    as for female orbiters, if you have one, it is almost guaranteed that she is below your SMV by a minimum of two points. Ive had about 5 in my lifetime and they were 3 points below at least. As a young man i stupidly believed that was my looks range until i cleaned up my act and gained confidence.

  160. 71,

    I reject utterly everything you just said. You set up a false premise and then offer false premise on top of false premise to try and reframe the argument. Also…

    Notice how several men have stated that women are only for sex. If a feminist came here and accused you of that, you would probably be angry at her.

    Absent from any logic or reason here is that any woman stating that women are (to men) just for sex, she would instantly cease being a feminst. Feminism (at its core) is about women being so much MORE than just sex for men, that I can’t even begin to understand the point you were making as this point is clear only to yourself.

    Not only can men and women NOT be friends, they SHOULDN’T be friends. Its bad for everyone involved, not the least of which the future spouses of the two “friends” in question.

  161. Legion says:

    Lurker No. 9 says: October 12, 2013 at 6:09 pm
    “Of course, I have a better view of women than that.”

    If you won’t listen, your ‘better view of women’ might be through jail bars.

  162. Micha Elyi says:

    Notice how several men have stated that women are only for sex.

    Anonymous age 71

    I haven’t noticed. Maybe that’s because I’m effeminate, or over to the right-hand side of the sexual arousal Bell curve, or insufficiently feminist. I searched this page for the phrase “women are only for sex” but it only appeared once before this comment of mine.

    An accusation based not on a quote but a paraphrase that may well not at all be an honest reflection of what anyone here wrote is a feminist sort of accusation. Very feminist. You yourself implicitly recognized that by following your attack with, “If a feminist came here and accused you of that…”

    So come clean. Produce the links. Then explain how each remark you referred to can only mean “women are only for sex”.

    …Churchianity…

    –ibid.

    Don’t let Churchianity lead you astray. If you choose Christianity go to the source, the Bible…”

    Anonymous age 71

    “Churchianity”.

    You keep using that word, I do not think it means what you think it means.

    The Princess Bride

    The Bible cannot be “the source” of Christianity because the Bible came from the Church, the Church that Jesus the Christ built upon Rock and which He left us (He did not so directly leave us any books) before He ascended.

    Maybe you overlook that Jesus gave the keys of His kingdom and the power to bind and loosen (in the Davidic kingdom, those were the signs and privileges of the office of the king’s chief steward) here on Earth to a man whose first words to Him included the admission, “I am a sinful man.” And yes, it can be hard to understand that through His passion on the cross He redeemed all mankind yet He didn’t make us all perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect. Maybe you’ve never really encountered His Church even though you may have had a lot of, as schoolers say, contact hours with it.

    I puzzle over your resentment of His Church and then I read what I think is good advice you gave to Miss Eva:

    It is hard to put behind you the physical and temporal effects of a significant N count. Even if you b.s. your way into marriage with a good man, it is too easy to get bored with that sort of life after years of high N count and pull the divorce trigger.

    Putting on a sweet Christian girl dress and singing in the church choir every Sunday might find you a husband, but your mind is still messed up.

    In my experience, the only way to live down a ‘past’ is to become totally moral in all aspects. Not just sexual, also don’t cheat on your taxes, no speeding n your car. Learn to be nice to people, let others go ahead in line…

    –ibid.

    “It is hard to put behind you…” It is hard to go and sin no more…

    “Putting on a sweet Christian girl dress…” Repentance “and singing in the Church choir every Sunday… and acts of penance “might find you a husband…” will join you to His spotless bride, His Church “but your mind is still messed up.” but your free will is still under the consequences of the Original Sin.

    And you say that in your experience the only way to live down a ‘past’ – includes works. I see in your advice here, Anon71, much that is Christian, particularly Catholic Christian. Any sinner who ever was baptized as Jesus Himself taught, “…in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost” (Matthew 28:19) – a Catholic baptism – is but one good sacramental confession away from being assured of full reconciliation with God and reunion with the Body of Christ, His Church.

    In baptism we are made adopted children of the Father (and therefore adopted brothers of His Son, Jesus). Yet God does not will that we lose His gift of free will even though the Original Sin of our first parents has weakened our will to use that gift for the glory of God and not to offend (sin against) him. But how often is our adopted Elder Brother ready to extend forgiveness for our frequent offenses? As often as we honestly ask He promised, as recorded in Matthew 18:21-22. And Jesus also, through His Church, gives us a Way in Truth to restore Life within us – the Eucharist.

    I agree with you, Anon71, that anybody who wishes to distance oneself from a regrettable sexual history must spend time walking down the path of Go And Sin No More. Virginity cannot be recaptured but chastity can be. Chastity, which in pop culture is often mistaken for merely saying “no” to sexual intercourse, is an entire lifestyle of saying “yes” to respect for the personal integrity of oneself and others – including bodily, spiritual, and sexual integrity. The chaste person reserves all that sexual intercourse is to true marriage and, as a consequence, does not use others nor treat anyone as a source of easy, cheap thrills. I know from experience that you are asking Eve to take up a cross. Let us pray for her and each other as the Apostle Paul asked others to pray for him and each other.

  163. greyghost says:

    IBB
    There is a difference between a beta orbiter and a man with women riding his jock. A woman’s submission in marriage is what makes her more than sex. Other than sex there is no reason to have a woman around and women know it. The laws of misandry are in place to make women more than sex.

  164. greyghost says:

    Anon 71
    I don’t think you were being insulted. Your comment matches pretty much with your comments you make here. Mexico can’t afford feminism so women behave differently even through it is with the same motivations women have. From that frame women will ride a mans jock. A man can say he has female friends. (harem) Here in the US we know that only happens for alphas because women have a culture of misandry and the laws to back them up (feminism). As far as they are concerned (think about it) the men she wants are for sex and submission. All else and others are for support staff.
    When a man says he has female friends that is what comes to mind. An alpha type doesn’t have that issue due to gina tingle he has female friends (bitches on his jock) Female friends to an alpha are not burdens to him, He doesn’t due shit for them other than a booty call every once and a while. Or on rare occasions do something productive like get a safety inspection sticker for her car. (she pays for it he just makes sure it passes) No different than little princess giving a hug and a “you’re my best friend” to the orbiter when her alpha boyfriend is out fucking her sister.

  165. Ton says:

    I’m not angry about most of what feminist have to say. Feminists understand women are usefully only for sex and unimportant domestic chores. They have created their cult in an attempt to cover up the truth about the limited nature of women instead of accepting their God (or natures) appointed role. How can I be angry about the truth?

    71, you’d not want to go down that road with me.

    This is the 1st job I’ve held where men and women “work together” and it’s one chick and she is the secretary. Or whatever we call them these days. And I only have this job because I’ve not healed up enough to return to duty.

    My point stands. What the hell does a man have in common with a woman if it is not effeminate pursuits? Does she power-lift? Rebuild cars, trucks and bikes? Hunt pigs, bears, turkeys, waterfowl and deer? Did she fight in MMA? Jump out of planes? Hunt tuna in open ocean with a kayak and a spear gun? Does she smoke cigars, drink bourbon and girl watch?

    As a rule I cannot see to many common points of interest. If my point is insulting, perhaps a man should re-evaluate his hobbies.

  166. greyghost says:

    One more thing
    “Notice how several men have stated that women are only for sex. If a feminist came here and accused you of that, you would probably be angry at her.”

    When a woman/feminist says that here she is not being practical for the sake of men. She is saying it as a valid excuse for not submitting and rebelling against her husband in marriage. Outside of marriage (laws of misandry) who cares what the hell a woman says or thinks.

  167. earl says:

    “The question is…why would you want to have anything to do with that to begin with?”

    Something to pass the time on this planet.

  168. earl says:

    “Guys – If you love a girl, tell her and face the music, be it sweet or be it sour.”

    Well I wouldn’t go so far as saying “love” to her…but I would let her know of my interest and intent. Ambiguity in these matters is why we are in such a mess in the first place.

  169. @Dalrock

    Why dont 80% of women reproduce, or give birth to children?

    United States 13.66 2013 est.
    United Kingdom 12.26 2013 est.

    If monogamy is supposedly awesome, why is it a colossal failure?

    Is feminism just a generational collapse of a hideous monogamous system, terrible at allowing procreation in a technologically advanced society?

    The real smoking gun, in the pants for monogamy … India a shitty 20% birth rate & they have arranged marriage AND a functioning traditional society

    So you cant blame modernism or feminism, for the terrible birth rate, a terrible birth rate is a direct result & construct of monogamy

    Data from the CIA

    https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2054rank.html

  170. earl says:

    Sure we can blame feminism and modernism.

    The birth rate was much higher before hormonal based contraception…which is a feminist creation.

  171. On the “Women & Men can’t be Friends” topic:

    It really rolls up around what you mean by “Friend”. We even know Men & Women have different definitions and understandings of the concepts.

    If we’re going with the Facebook Definition, then, yes, it’s quite possible. That’s just your social circle.

    If we’re talking about “Will help you bury a corpse”, then, no, you can’t be “friends”. A Woman would only help out, in an extreme case, if she was sleeping with you or really wants to sleep with you.

    Between those two points is where the issue will get muddy. In American & most Western societies, I think your limit is far closer to the Facebook side as being the “maximum”. Outside the modern parts of the West, where there is more social order, higher status for Men or clan/locality realities, it allows for more of what we’d call “friendship” between the Sexes. As in Anon 71’s case, he lives in Mexico and has a higher status (and age status) than others around him. It allows him to operate from a position of delineation of Status, thus he can be “friends” with Women in a way you’re not going to readily find in the West.

    But Ton’s points do still stand: there’s very little common ground for Adults to build a friendship of of, in the West, between a Man & a Woman. Especially if a relationship isn’t on the table. This is why, for myself, my “female Friends” are those I grew up with and spent years attending the same schools. Then we have something in common. (Though, it has to be noted, I still have higher Status than they do, for a number of reasons)

  172. Opus says:

    Thewerewife correctly links Mediaeval Courtly Love to the Beta Orbiter – and literature is full of Heroes going off to kill Dragon’s for the purpose of impressing a woman. Tristan and Isolde and Lancelot and Guinevere are rather different however. Isolde hates Tristan, and what is more she is betrothed and thus effectively married to King Mark – that is until Brangena switches poison – she seems to hate all men including King Mark – for a love potion. Guinevere was I believe married to King Arthur. Tristan and Lancelot were thus never Beta Orbiters – fancying a woman does make you Beta; hanging around to help with the shopping or being a shoulder to cry on when she fancies someone else.

    Anon71’s different experiences In Mexico seem to highlight how Beta orbiting tends to be an effect of Male Investment combined with Female wealth and single-dom. Gaming and PUAs are the inevitable consequence.

  173. Opus says:

    The word ‘does’, is missing from the end of my first paragraph and the word to end my second would have been better had it instead of being consequence been ‘response’.

  174. Ton says:

    Not sure a man can be friends with those he has status, authority etc over. Which might be another reason why I don’t have any female friends. I am on friendly terms with a number of women and my subordinates as well. I live with 7 girls and love each one in my way but my friends are generally speaking my equal in position, basic capabilities etc, share similar life experiences, passions etc

  175. Anonymous age 71 says:

    Dalrock, do you know what Amanda and Jessica and ManBoobz will do to you if they see this thread?

    Women have no valuee except for sex.

    Man and women cannot be friends, unless there is something really wrong with the man.

    If men and women can be friends, they shouldn’t be.

    If I don’t know how to be friends with women, no one can be. What’s that word? Solipsism? Yep, that’s it. Nothing outside my own experience can exist, including men and women being friends. And, when people present evidence that they can, I am going to double down on the insults until they stop.

    You men here think you are really hot stuff, but this is the worst thread I have ever seen on any blog or board in the manosphere. It represents men in a very negative way.

    Actually, Ton, yes I do want to go there with you. There are certan geographic issues, of course. So, it has to remain hypothetical.

    I do not disagree with the original premise, that men who are ‘friends’ with impossible women are merely hoping somehow to get sex. And, that this is wrong in so many ways. The problem came when it was asserted as a universal truth that men and women cannot and should not ever be friends. This is one of those things one finds among the uneducated.

  176. Dalrock says:

    @Lurker No. 9

    Now, let’s assume for the sake of argument that everything on this blog is right and true. That women are solipsistic and all that other terrible stuff.

    The question is…why would you want to have anything to do with that to begin with? Even if you were sure it was something you could stay on top of with that silly “headship” stuff. Aside from the effort involved, it makes you wonder what it means, that women are supposedly this way to begin with.

    Because women being different than men, and different than feminism has taught you is anything but terrible. Marriage is profoundly beautiful, despite feminists trying to frame it as slavery. The same is true for being a parent. You shouldn’t want to marry a dude in a dress, and you shouldn’t ask your wife (if you have one) to pretend this is what she is. That this would offend you is quite telling.

    Of course, I have a better view of women than that.

    Do you? If so, why do you take references to women being women as an insult to women? Women aren’t men, and pretending they are is a catastrophe. But acknowledging the lie of feminism is no insult against women.

  177. Dalrock says:

    @Anon 71

    Dalrock, do you know what Amanda and Jessica and ManBoobz will do to you if they see this thread?

    Women have no valuee except for sex.

    Man and women cannot be friends, unless there is something really wrong with the man.

    If men and women can be friends, they shouldn’t be.

    If I don’t know how to be friends with women, no one can be.

    I’m not sure what you are asking for here. Is it assistance? You and Zippy are doing quite well addressing these arguments; I don’t think you are in need of help. Are you asking me to ban dumb comments?

  178. greyghost says:

    Anon 71
    I don’t think it’s that bad. The reason women and men can’t be friends the way men can be is the same stuff of character we see in women in general. The same comments I make about female virtue is being the path that woman took for toasted ice, well carrying it forward there is no way a woman can be an actual friend. It sounds corny but hey playing males sports like football, marine corps and working in all male environments men have a way of creating friendships that are more powerful than anything romantic between men and women at any level. It is the root of the feminist hatred and the foundation of misandry. Sacrificial “love” was among men in the form of courage honor duty etc. Women can’t do that. Yeah a man can have female “friends” and it sure as hell is not going to be as I described. So maybe the problem is more a definition of terms. That in itself is the source of half of the infighting in the manosphere anyway.

  179. Abelard Lindsey says:

    Say I accept your arguments that romantic love is bogus. Given this, and the fact that I’m a guy who is perfectly comfortable in my own skin and has long term objectives that women in general do not seem to identify with (like biological immortality, for one, including the use of cryonics if necessary), and that I have no desire for kids, the following question is asked: Why do I need marriage? What useful function does it serve for me.

    Please tell me you are not suggesting I mortgage the next 30 years of my life, and to risk my chances at biological immortality (google “hostile wife phenomenon” in cryonics) just to get “the edge off” from time to time.

  180. Dalrock says:

    @Abelard Lindsey

    Say I accept your arguments that romantic love is bogus.

    This isn’t the argument at all. Romantic love is wonderful, as is sex. What I’m saying is romantic love is being misplaced in the hierarchy, especially morally. Marriage is the moral place for sex and romantic love. Culturally we have turned this around so that romantic love is (seen as) at the top of the moral hierarchy, with sex and marriage as things to pursue within romantic love. The blogger/book I was referencing in the OP argues that the misuse of romantic love outside of marriage is a fundamental good, a virtue, where in fact it is a vice.

  181. Ton says:

    You are a weak, pathetic excuse for a man who accepted his wife’s infidelity without a fuss. You should be shunned an ridiculed by men every where as an example to boys as how not to act as a man. Your ability to give any man any advice or travel down that road is suspect at best and most likely completely absent

    You forget Dalrock that many men have been married and found no beauty in it. I’d imagine the men who have found beauty in marraige are in the minority

  182. Ton says:

    Wondering about what the feminist will think or say or do is an extra helping o weak sauce. The kind of weakness that has lead to this mess, giving into their demands large and small.

  183. Opus says:

    Am I not correct in thinking that only the other day Anon71 was telling Bill Price at The Spearhead that it was his second worse article ever – and now this.

  184. Feminist Hater says:

    Nice shaming from Kent Wood up above. His whole diatribe of pathetic attempts at shaming men could be summarised into one sentence….

    Don’t be a beta boy.

    Clear and concise and no need to shame anywhere in there.

  185. greyghost says:

    Ton
    Where did the comment about being accepting of a wife’s infidelity come from? I can’t find who or what that is directed at.

  186. Feminist Hater says:

    Anyway, being a friend of a girl who is not interested in you will make you waste time that could be spent with a girl who is.

    Quite simply, if a girl doesn’t call you back for any reason, even death, she’s not interested in you and should be, forthwith, removed from your pool of qualified candidates and from your life. Being a friend to a woman you like, who has no interest in you bar using you for male orbitership, is a vast waste of resources that will leave you drained and depressed. Don’t do it.

  187. Feminist Hater says:

    Anon71, perhaps your confusion is stemming from the fact that you already have a wife. When a single man is looking for a mate, he cannot afford not to prioritise and waste time on women as friends. He needs to scale back his time spent with women not interested and maximise his time with women who are.

  188. Michael says:

    Who accepted his wife’s infidelity without a fuss? Infidelity is this day and age is playing Russian Roulette with your spouses life. All these diseases and they are for LIFE. Herpes etc. HPV leads to cancer in men. Not to mention all the other STD,s. These viruses stay inside you for the rest of your life. Herpes is the gift that keeps on giving. Not to mention if you particate in oral copulation after another man has cock and balled her with his Twinkie cream. Disgusting

    It’s hard to believe I could be exposed to infidelity and possibly infected with an STD then after doing the right thing and filing for divorce – lose half more of everything AND become a continued slave to a women paying her bills for years AND be ruined beyond any meaningful recovery.

    Maybe he was forced to accept his wife’s infidelity in the hopes she would not cheat again?

  189. Michael says:

    I can identify with Kent Wood because I did this for so many years and I say with great sadness that it got me NOWHERE with women. Which was their loss because now many of them are in their thirties single and aging. I can’t help but wonder if they want presently what they rejected previously.

    Like Kent Wood, I also had an active imagination and could see all the possibilities in a women with us living happily ever after etc. But they are not going to get this anymore. Women no longer have the power to cast a spell over me like they could when they were young hot and fertile in their primes. Even young women don’t have this spell casting power anymore – but they still have the pull. I also saw first hand how these women chose to spend their power – having sex with with every other guy but me in college and after college. You see they were content to have me orbit them until they decided to come to but now their gravitational force is no longer existent.

  190. Michael says:

    @ Dalrock

    I just posted a comment in response to Kent Wood and it did not post. I’m not re writing it…

    [D: Every now and then the askimet spam filter does a false positive. I found the comment in the spam bin and put it through.]

  191. Michael says:

    Hey I posted a comment and it did not post!

  192. Feminist Hater says:

    Michael, if you post specific words, it probably gets sorted into Dalrock’s spam bin. Ask him to have a look.

  193. Martian Bachelor says:

    The essence of friendship is that there is no active Parental ego state (P) under ordinary conditions. That is, friends do not criticize each other in a Parent-to-Child (P-C) way, although they may give each other advice.
    So you don’t have to say anything sensible to have a friend, providing you both believe in the same nonsense.
    To paraphrase Proust, a friend is one who has the same illusions you have, so he won’t hurt your feelings when he finds out you have them, too.
    – Eric Berne

  194. Jen says:

    Feminist Hater – I think you make a very good point. I think Anon71 is correct about the ability of men and women to be friends with each other – it just generally happens for males if they have already secured a mate.

  195. Ton says:

    If I recall correctly an71 owned up to that at SSM’s place and of course the chicks fawned all over hime for it. Nor am I the only man to have called him on it

    I’ll galdly retrack it if I am wrong.

  196. Men and women can to be effing friends, dang it

  197. AJ says:

    I’m surprised by how upset some men get about a woman not wanting to have sex with them. Not being attracted to someone isn’t an insult.

  198. greyghost says:

    effing yeah I understand, effing friends is the way to go.

  199. MarcusD says:

    I’m surprised by how upset some men get about a woman not wanting to have sex with them.

    I would say the reverse is much more true. The common perception that men don’t turn down sex makes it all the more insulting/hurtful/stinging when a men does do so. (Research conducted on the topic has concluded that men and women are about equal in their frequency of turning down sex, surprisingly.)

  200. Feminist Hater says:

    Hm, conflating ‘being rejected’ with ‘not wanting to waste time’ is a very futile and flippant way to look at the issue. Being friends with women won’t help you get a wife. Having a wife and being friends with women also isn’t an issue because you’re not needing help getting a wife. However, being friends with a woman you are interested in is a sure fire way to not get a wife.

    Perhaps that’s where the problem lies…

  201. KWood says:

    I’m of the opinion that beta/alpha is something we’re stuck with for life. I don’t see myself as any more ‘alpha’ today than I was when I was in fourth grade. I can amass money and pretend to play the part while the money (or fame or whatever) lasts, but it’s largely illusory. I know alphas, and they are different from me. They are not simply ‘rich’ or popular. They get things done without a lot of fuss and make others feel good about it in the process. This makes people enjoy being around them and makes them natural leaders. In business terms, the wise alpha corrals the clever, problem-solving efforts of the betas and with their help delivers a product that meets or exceeds the demand and pleases the customer.

    I’ve always appreciated and admired those people, but I’ve never been one, save occasionally on a much smaller scale in relation to other betas. That’s my experience, one man to another, and if you disagree that’s fine.

    Using ‘game’ to get girls is clever and interesting, but is really just the beta ‘nerd’ mentality taken to a different realm. Instead of hacking networks, one is hacking relationships. Clever and at times deeply impressive, but not alpha. Neither is every, or even most, ‘tough guy’ or ‘dirtbag’ who effortlessly attracts a lot of girls (away from the lesser betas) an alpha. They’re generally ‘one trick ponies’ who have an attribute that girls find attractive, but have no real lasting value beyond it. Alphas have (and add) value.

    Using ‘game’ to get a sort of revenge on femdom is full on Beta, in my opinon. Using it to help cement and add a little life to relationship you have, value and seek to maintain is another thing altogether.

    So the admonition to ‘just stop being a beta’ is impossible, in my opinion. ‘Be a smarter beta’ is perhaps a wiser choice. Using ‘beta’ as a perjorative term for other men who make poor choices is, to my thinking, a more insidious form of self-hatred and shaming.

  202. effing yeah I understand, effing friends is the way to go.

    Ah… grey you grabbed up what i threw down.

  203. Michael says:

    @ feminist hater

    That’s true about prioritizing. Also It wastes your time and energy while she wastes her time and energy on a guy who doesn’t care.

  204. KWood says:

    @Eva,

    This is just my opinion. By all means do what YOU feel is right.

    Disclaimers aside, I’ll posit that you are solely responsible for your life, and any ‘absolution’ (or lack thereof) is between you and God alone. Ask for guidance, be open to receiving guidance and trust that it will come. You don’t need to have everything ‘figured out’ before hand. No one else does, whatever they may have you believe. That’s an idle fantasy that leads to depression and stagnation.

    Go. Shut off the computer and get out of here. Find a husband and have kids! There’s always room for more good ones and I have no doubt yours will be wonderful. Don’t be afraid of making mistakes in the process. If you ‘crash and burn’ in the process, or treat someone unfairly, then so be it. I do it all the time, suffer accordingly and do my best to do better the next time. Life happens and no one is perfect. You’re clearly open to the idea of ‘not stringing men along’ when you know you’re not interested in them. Be as honest as you can from now on and try to act gracefully on that new awareness and that’s all there is to it. And don’t waste much time feeling bad because us guys have our work cut out for us too!

    Any shame we feel in regards to our own perceived wrong doing is there to help GUIDE us into a better future, not to make us a prisoner wasting away in a cold stone tower. If we sit still and simply ‘soak’ in the shame, then the shame is wasted.

    Honestly, would you, as a future parent, want to see your own child behave in this way if they made a mistake and were sorry? “Sit in your room and be miserable until I tell you it’s time to come out! AND PARSE THROUGH THIS PILE OF ANCIENT JEWISH SCRIPTURES WHILE YOU’RE AT IT!”

    Granted, there are parents in this world who behave in exactly that fashion towards their children, which I think is perverse, but if you wouldn’t treat your own children that way, then why would you expect Our Father Who Art In Heaven want to see HIS children behaving this way?!

    In closing, one of the biggest lies, in my opinion, is that, ‘we do good works to absolve ourselves in God’s eyes’. I see it the other way around. We trust in God and go with God, and in time we find that doing good works large and small is the most natural and wonderful thing and how could we ever have thought otherwise?

    God’s love is not a ‘prize’ given to those who win it, any more than your love will be for your own children. It’s THERE, for the taking, and always has been, and when you take it, you begin to change from that point on.

    THAT’S the good news that Jesus came to deliver. The open opportunity for God’s love to ‘grow on you’. Take it and RUN with it!

    Just my 2c.

  205. Bluedog says:

    I’ve been burking this thread and it seems like there are a few important themes and one pretty unimportant one. Important themes includes Dalrock’s main thesis that cheap male emotional intimacy is socially and morally analogous to cheap female sexual intimacy and how their normalization serves to undermine the strength of monogamy and the marriage institution.

    I think a lot of people outside the religious and political affiliations of the typical readers of this blog would want to hear that message out, and their hearing it out may not result in ascendancy of the thesis, but it would serve many positive ends we’d all agree with.

    Another hard-hitting thesis that is not getting much real estate was from the commenter asking this:

    “If monogamy is supposedly awesome, why is it a colossal failure?

    “Is feminism just a generational collapse of a hideous monogamous system, terrible at allowing procreation in a technologically advanced society?”

    While we’ve had these two important themes, a not-so-important theme is “can men and women be friends?” … but that one has gotten a lot of real estate and on some threads is going down the predictable dialectic of

    **discussion breaks down, backs are turned and anything like ‘moving forward'” becomes an impossibility**

    Can we observe this dialectic for once rather than lower to it? If we do, we have to do so understanding that some inside the dialectic who perceive their own interests as being served by it (or who have NO OTHER social skill sets!) will never achieve the self-awareness to realize what it is they are doing.

    But can the rest of us observe it and acknowledge what’s going on and make something like a tacit agreement to attempt not to persist in it or allow ourselves to be led by it? That alone … refusing to be led by those who would lift a middle finger to good faith and grandstand instead for isolation of their opponent and personal hegemony … refusing to reward this tendency … that will do more than anything to suffocate it of its power.

    I suggest this as a step on the way to building something together, rather than just having a chat forum.

  206. jack says:

    No Rings For Sluts.
    (for old times’ sake)

  207. imnobody00 says:

    @thewerewife

    Correct, the pedestalization movement started during the XII century with the troubadours. This same century Christianity was feminized (read “the Church impotent”). All the works you cite are the result of this pedestalization and follow the tradition started with the troubadours.

    The early troubadours conceived the woman as a sexual object but this changed quickly. Very soon, the troubadours conceived the lady as a feudal lord so they had to serve her as her vassal. Originally the lady was a married woman and the love of the troubadour was never consummated. It was a platonic ideal love. This is the origin of beta orbiting.

    After “Le Roman de la Rose” (XIII century), the ideal woman stops being a married feudal lady and starts to be a young virgin woman but the pedestalization continues.

    This pedestalization was intensified during the Great Awakening and the Victorian Era. After the sexual revolution, the pedestalization movement split into two movement: socons and feminism.

    So feminism’s roots in Western civilization were in the XII century. It could be claimed that Rome had its form of feminism (late Romans said “Rome rules the world and women rule Rome”) but it disappeared after the Fall of the Roman Empire.

  208. imnobody00 says:

    @Michael

    Women no longer have the power to cast a spell over me like they could when they were young hot and fertile in their primes.

    This is a problem with middle-aged guys (forty-somethings) like me who would want to get married. Thirty-something women don’t produce the kind of illusion and love twenty-something women produce. Being with a young and fertile woman produces a kind of feelings that are awesome. It is this intoxication that makes you want to marry her.

    A thirty-something old woman is still attractive, no doubt about it. You can like it and I have had good relationships (and sex) with them. But you don’t want to marry her. You are not that in love. This is a problem if you want to get married, as I do.

  209. jack says:

    MIchael-

    I feel your pain, bro.

    The biggest problem is the “alpha widow” aspect – they used to screw hotter guys even though those guys would never commit to them, and now they are ruined.

  210. KWood says:

    Marriage is where friendship with a woman really takes place. A lot of marriages crash and burn because they are founded on fleeting feelings of ‘intoxicating romance’ with nothing else to back it up. This is technically good for the gene pool perhaps, if children are produced and not aborted, but not so good for men looking to enjoy life and become fathers themselves in the truest sense of the word.

    A marriage is a lot of things, each supporting the other. Romance, friendship and the business of living. When one aspect takes a dip, the others are there to back it up. By middle age, these things should start becoming apparent.

    An older man who fails to find love and marriage due to an obsession with the intoxicating effects of charming young women is no less ‘ruined’ by his own poor choices and habits than the ‘alpha widows’ in my opinion. I feel for these men, of course, knowing full well that if I didn’t meet the woman I did when I did, I’d probably be one of them, endlessly ‘playing the field’ looking for perfection.

    Instead, I’m ‘playing the field’ kicking a ball around with my own children.

    In truth, no one is ‘ruined’. Life and happiness are there for the taking whenever we’re ready to get out of our own way.

  211. Zippy says:

    KWood:
    An older man who fails to find love and marriage due to an obsession with the intoxicating effects of charming young women is no less ‘ruined’ by his own poor choices and habits than the ‘alpha widows’ in my opinion.

    Things are even worse than you suggest. A great deal of modern life centers around fantasy worlds not reality, and an “alpha widow” type effect can happen to both men and women even when there is no actual real life experience to back it up. A man isn’t just competing with other real experiences involving other real men; he is also competing with fictional characters in 50 Shades of Spank Me and Sleep With Me In Seattle While I Fake Orgasms With Every Man Except Mister Perfect. A woman isn’t just competing with other real experiences with other real women; she is competing with Live Interactive RealPorn in Technicolor 3D, with BOOBIES[TM].

    It is a sorry mess.

  212. Elspeth says:

    A marriage is a lot of things, each supporting the other. Romance, friendship and the business of living. When one aspect takes a dip, the others are there to back it up. By middle age, these things should start becoming apparent.

    Very true, this. My husband, while not my BFF in the way a woman is, is without question my best friend. He’s the one who knows my deepest fears and greatest hopes.

    But we still know better than to expect one another to get allexcited about every little hobby the other enjoys. That’s what same gender friends are for.

  213. sunshinemary says:

    @ Zippy

    A great deal of modern life centers around fantasy worlds not reality, and an “alpha widow” type effect can happen to both men and women even when there is no actual real life experience to back it up.

    I find your comment really interesting. I noted the same thing (only about women, though) quite a while ago on my old blog. What I wrote in that post was:

    “Men are now competing against the alpha in the woman’s head, even if she is a virgin. It’s not enough to tell men, “Just don’t marry a slut and you’ll be okay.” We weren’t created (or if you prefer, we didn’t evolve) for women to have media exposure to the most sexually appealing males in the world on a daily basis, but that is the current reality and it changes things [...]

    Women are bombarded day and night with images and descriptions (many fictitious) of hyper-masculine men whose full-time job it is to work out and cultivate the image of a dark triad personality. In particular, fantasy stories (Twilight, Fifty Shades, and the like) manipulate women’s emotions, giving them emotional highs that are nearly addictive; she comes to see a man as being The One if he can give her that emotional high that she’s gotten used to having vicariously. What real-life man can compete with a fantasy?

    So even if she has a low number of previous sexual partners, men are competing against the fantasy alpha in her mind, and that is a lot to compete with. Most men won’t measure up to the man in her head. Eventually she’ll settle, but how happy of a union will that be? The man might be a normal man – most men probably are “normal” men – but he’s going to seem more beta that he would have been perceived as being 100 years ago.”
    (source)

  214. sunshinemary says:

    So, the reason I find your comment interesting, Zippy, is because I was only considering the woman’s side of the equation in my post. It didn’t occur to me that the same might be true of men until I read what you wrote.

  215. hurting says:

    Concurring with LookingGlass that friendship between men and women is only possible to the extent that the qualifications to the term are allowed, and it’s not just the ‘Facebook-body burying helper’ continuum. While all relationships ebb and flow over time based on life circumstances, inter-gender ones are subject to forces unlike same-gender ones, namely restrictions on interactions created by the romatic entanglements of opposite-sex friends. Regardless of whether or not men and women can be friends, the wisdom is activiely seeking and cultivating opposite sex friendships is dubious at best, especially for people married or seeking marriage as their life’s vocation.

    As to terminology, I’d also quibble with those who claim to have married their best friends. Spouses are not friends by definition – the spousal relationship (“the two becoming one”) far surpasses the level of initmacy any two other human beings can share.

  216. Zippy says:

    sunshinemary:
    It didn’t occur to me that the same might be true of men until I read what you wrote.

    It is pervasive. Folks get their expectations and fantasies calibrated not just by apex fallacies applied to their real experiences in real life, but by outright and vivid fiction.

    Picture the subjective and objective content of an ordinary evening in America. Subjectively, millions of people are vividly experiencing car chases, tawdry sex, adventure, triumph over what PC thinks of as “injustice”, sports thrill-of-victory-and-agony-of-defeat, all enacted through images of the Beautiful People, etc.

    Objectively, millions of people are sitting in chairs and on couches, mesmerized by the glow of oracular screens imprinting the unreal on their minds.

    Last Action Hero:

    Danny Madigan: Where are the ordinary, everyday women? They don’t exist because this is a movie!
    Jack Slater: No, this is California.

  217. Zippy says:

    It is an interesting experience to walk through a modern suburban neighborhood at night – quiet, peaceful, not a soul around but an occasional jogger, cat, or rabbit, and the unnatural light of televisions and computers flickering out into the street from the windows of the houses, silouetting the still figures within.

  218. sunshinemary says:

    @ Zippy

    I’ve notice the same because I am an evening jogger. It’s always odd when there is a power outage for some reason and people emerge from their lairs and speak to one another. Even when we went camping in a state park several years ago, we were astounded by the number of people who spent the evening inside their RVs, that ubiquitous blue light flickering through the windows.

  219. Feminist Hater says:

    K Wood, big ups with the shaming! Yo bro, moar!

    Anyway, so wanting a woman who is a virgin and wants to marry at a young age is an unrealistic expectation? Well, I just don’t find the need to care. I’ve always been quite consistent with what I want in a woman. It hasn’t been amazing beauty or money or anything really unrealistic. Just a woman my attractiveness level who wants to marry, is under 24 and a virgin. If unrealistic means expecting that she hasn’t been with other men and is marriage minded, well then, guess I’m unrealistic; and truth be told, I’d rather keep being ‘unrealistic’ than marry a slut.

  220. Elspeth says:

    As to terminology, I’d also quibble with those who claim to have married their best friends. Spouses are not friends by definition – the spousal relationship (“the two becoming one”) far surpasses the level of initmacy any two other human beings can share.

    I agree. I would never say I married my best friend. I married a guy I felt more passion for than I knew was buried in me. I wasn’t looking for a friend, and neither was he.

    He has however, become my closest friend in the truest sense of the word friendship. There is no one else I trust more to be there for me and to love me warts and all. Scripture (Proverbs 17:17 for reference) says a friend loves at all times. There is only one human being I can say I have experienced that with.

    That said, I truly hate it when women want their men to be their new BFF. That’s a one way ticket to a passionless marriage.

  221. Feminist Hater says:

    In truth, no one is ‘ruined’. Life and happiness are there for the taking whenever we’re ready to get out of our own way.

    More churchian garbage.

  222. Feminist Hater says:

    Lol, I do have a laugh when reading the comments by women here confirm, by their own reasoning, that marriage is by and large an impossible undertaking for a man; and yet continue to believe that men can simply become more Alpha… and thus facilitate the corrective measures necessary to return humanity to a more sound basis.

    Lol what?!

  223. meerkat says:

    Part of the problem too is that young women are encouraged to leave their parents at the same time young men are encouraged to do so. Young need resources when they are alone in the world, and the stupid parents who buy into the feminist lie that everyone is equal create a situation where their daughter has to rely on others for her physical safety (“Bye 18 year old daughter! stay safe! your physical security is no longer my problem! We’d think you’re a loser if you stayed home with us!”). A dorm is not safe for women. A shared apartment/townhouse is not safe for women. Few 18 year olds can afford better. I’m in my 40s, but I imagine a beta orbiter is a very useful, even vital to a female’s own security on today’s campus, just as it was in the 80s.

  224. Elspeth,

    I married a guy I felt more passion for than I knew was buried in me. I wasn’t looking for a friend, and neither was he.

    Wow.

    Those are almost the exact same words a coworker of mine said about his wife. The passion. It just overwhelmed him. It got to the point that he couldn’t wait to have his teeth cleaned because this woman (who wound up being his wife) was also his dentist. It took him 3 teeth cleanings over a period of 18 months before he got enough nerve to ask if he could see her socially, outside her office. She said yes and they were married, I don’t know, probably not even a year later.

  225. Feminist Hater says:

    These sort of nonsense ‘sacrificial’ love stories are pumped out for one reason. To keep beta, gamma and omega men pining away for a woman whilst she spends her time with other men. It does this because in the end, this same woman, having spent her youth fucking around, will finally turn around and need a ‘real man’ and thus she must have her orbiters around JIT to help her fund her lifestyle and one child family; and also to fund the sequel, which includes divorce, alimony and child payments that allow her to rekindle the love lost with her ex-lover, the one who made her feel more passion then she knew was buried inside her, whilst her evil ex-husband pays for his wicked ways for forcing her to marry him…

  226. Opus says:

    Aristotle had quite a lot to say about Friendship in Books 8 and 9 of the Ethics, and he observed that it was not possible to have more than a few friends because there is not sufficient time to devote to more than a few. Facebook is thus inflationary hot-air. Recently Robin Dunbar has defined that number down to precisely no more than five. He says that when you acquire a wife or girlfriend, you don’t then have a sixth friend but in fact are reduced to four (meaning you have to drop two friends) because there just is not the time to foster a committed inter-sex friendship and all your normal guy friends. :(

    It is noticeable that in both serious and popular music the ideal number of performers is four; whether pop group or String 4tet. Quintets also work, but consider The Beatles. They began to break up when they began to acquire wives (Linda Eastman, Yoko Ono). Then consider Abba; they began to break up when their respective marriages to each other collapsed. The Spice Girls may have espoused Girl-Power but that also imploded, I’d guess about the time Posh Spice met Beckham – after that they were scratching each others eyes out.

    If, thus, you have a platonic friend of the opposite sex, then you are depriving yourself of a same-sex buddy, and at the same time, largely preventing yourself from acquiring a Wife or Girlfriend.

  227. Feminist Hater says:

    And yes, her love lost lover found her hidden passion by drilling deep, deep inside of her.

  228. FH,

    These sort of nonsense ‘sacrificial’ love stories are pumped out for one reason. To keep beta, gamma and omega men pining away for a woman whilst she spends her time with other men.

    Yeah, I have absolutely no idea what the denist’s dating life/sex life was like before she got involved with my coworker. I am not even for sure when it was that they met exactly, only that it took him that long to finanally get up his courage to approach her. They don’t have any kids at the moment.

    I just thought Elspeth’s comment about “passion” rang true. That is the exact same word he used about his wife. It’s nice. A man should feel that way about his wife.

  229. FH,

    Lol, I do have a laugh when reading the comments by women here confirm, by their own reasoning, that marriage is by and large an impossible undertaking for a man; and yet continue to believe that men can simply become more Alpha… and thus facilitate the corrective measures necessary to return humanity to a more sound basis.

    Yes it is pretty silly. I understand what you are saying, some betas can make the jump to alpha (with a little confidence shot in the arm, that is what it took for me) but most cannot make this leap. And it is senseless for women to believe that this will happen for most betas. It will not no matter how much the beta wants it to happen.

    It’s kind of like men just believing that ugly women just need to make themselves beautiful. Its not going to happen for some women, not in this lifetime (not if they aren’t willing to do plastic surgery.) Even a woman that is skinny-skinny, she could be born ugly, live her childhood ugly, her late teens and early twenties, always being ugly. There might not be a damn thing she can do about it. And as a result, she might not have any memory or knowledge of what it feels like to be chased by boys/young men. She had a very introverted lifestyle. It can be very damaging for a woman. And the beautiful women can say that they empathize with the ugly women, but in reality they don’t know how it feels to be isolated and alone, they don’t know how it feels to know that it may be her whole lifetime before a man passionately kisses her. That is a horrible feeling.

  230. Elspeth says:

    @ FH:

    I realize that this is what many people mean when they speak of passion (sexual activity). I was however, referring to something else.

    People have sex with people they feel no pasion for all the time. Or so I’ve heard and read.

  231. Elspeth says:

    I have to admit though that your interpretation of what I wrote was very funny.

  232. Feminist Hater says:

    Well IBB, I do believe there is that 20 to 25 % of the human race that is born with really bad genetics and thus is not meant to procreate. I consider myself amongst them so it’s not as if I don’t feel for them. These are the people that you shouldn’t advise to look for marriage or for happiness with the opposite sex, they will not find it. They will not find it with their opposite sexual number in attractiveness level, as they’re too unattractive to be attracted to each other. It’s better for such people to be told flat out that they have no hope in love or sexual release and should look for something else that allows them to live their lives.

  233. FH,

    These are the people that you shouldn’t advise to look for marriage or for happiness with the opposite sex, they will not find it. They will not find it with their opposite sexual number in attractiveness level, as they’re too unattractive to be attracted to each other. It’s better for such people to be told flat out that they have no hope in love or sexual release and should look for something else that allows them to live their lives.

    Its easier now. I say that because there are SO MANY OTHER INTERESTS available to this 20-25% of humanity that you say was born that will never procreate. And these interests were not available 30 or 40 years ago, interests that are common place today.

    Case in point, a very good friend of mine that I knew from college in Massachusetts, he is a short, fat, ugly MOFO. I don’t think he ever had a date, certainly not any romance from any woman in the 25 years that I have known him. Well, he fills his time with paintball. That is what he does. That is what he lives for, paintball. And every weekend when he logs out of his computer and leaves the office for the weekend, he heads right for a paintball field and plays in an open event. And he does quite well. It is something he looks forward to, something that I would never want anyone (or our government) to take from him.

    Now some might say that this person has capitulated his entire life. I am not among those ignorant people. Instead, what I see is a man who (limited by his physical appearance) found a way to live a life of total and complete happiness. He found an interest and it is the cornerstone of his existance. It gives him purpose. And as a result, he is always smiling.

  234. James K says:

    @Elspeth

    The idea of the (beta) male rationalization hamster is worth examination.

    What women (and alpha men) sometimes forget is that they get more attention from the opposite sex in a day than the beta male (a.k.a. “average frustrated chump”) gets in a month.

    When the beta male hamster sees a “glimmer of hope”, it is something that indeed would be totally insignificant to anybody else. A hug, a smile and some friendly words, showing appreciation – the chump’s hamster absolutely interprets these as “glimmers of hope”.

    Most women have a good radar for the frustrated chump – usually as a result of past experiences – and are careful not to do things that he will interpret as a “glimmer of hope”. What really confuses the beta is when he meets a woman who does not have such a radar. He thinks “she’s being really nice to me; it’s ages since I’ve met anyone who likes me this much; perhaps she’s the one!”

    Some women encourage beta orbiters, in return for emotional support and heavy lifting; other women like playing games to manipulate people.

    However, the main problems are with the beta himself, and are the same as the problems of the slut:

    “The lack of confidence and/or social obliviousness are more or less the same.” (@orion2)

    The beta male hamster is not quite the same as the female hamster. The male hamster says “I’m not getting any indications of interest – I need to look more carefully for them – Aha! I see a glimmer of hope!”.

    The female hamster is a bit more deviant: she rationalizes away her personal responsibility for any immoral or reprehensible things she has done.

  235. Feminist Hater says:

    Lol, a beta man is so mistreated, that any appreciation is taken as something more, a glimmer of hope. Or am I confused James?

  236. Oblivion says:

    this is off topic…

    I fully digested the red pill about a month ago. I set up a plenty of fish profile and am scrolling through womens profiles and know exactly what they are saying.its pretty scary out there. ill report back with my finding at a more appropriate time :)

  237. Oblivion says:

    i set it up today

  238. Cane Caldo says:

    Since when can we “Like” comments? The page jittered wildly while it was loading.

  239. Dalrock says:

    @Cane Caldo

    Since when can we “Like” comments? The page jittered wildly while it was loading.

    I didn’t select anything to allow that so wordpress must have rolled it out on their own. The comments were jumping around for me just now until I killed scripts from wordpress using NoScript.

  240. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    Much better, thanks!

    [D: Very strange. I turned off the global option for "Likes" in Settings/Sharing and this seems to have fixed the issue in my browser as well.]

  241. Zippy says:

    It seems to have happened across a number of WordPress blogs, including my own (even though I have Post likes turned off). Each “jump” seems to be a script adding a “like” button to each comment, so threads with long comment threads have constant jumping until all the “like” buttons have rendered.

    It is a major WordPress fail, I’m surprised it got deployed at all without better testing.

  242. Cane Caldo says:

    Bummer about the post Likes, though. My theme is not doing this. Perhaps a change is in order.

  243. earl says:

    FH is a good representation of what happens when cynicism invades the psyche.

  244. Zippy says:

    My dashboard isn’t giving me an option to turn them off. The two options are “on for all posts” or “on per post”. Maybe I have to upgrade just to turn the damn things off.

    [D: I should have been more clear. I get the same options. I switched it from "all posts" (global) to "per post", and this seemed to fix it. But it could be this was the same time they turned it off too.]

  245. Dalrock says:

    @Zippy

    It seems to have happened across a number of WordPress blogs, including my own (even though I have Post likes turned off). Each “jump” seems to be a script adding a “like” button to each comment, so threads with long comment threads have constant jumping until all the “like” buttons have rendered.

    It is a major WordPress fail, I’m surprised it got deployed at all without better testing.

    I found a wordpress forum thread on the issue here and someone suggested just now that it was turned back off. I tried turning likes back on globally and the comment likes seem to be gone again and the problem of jitters didn’t reappear.

  246. Zippy says:

    Thanks Dalrock. They are gone now, and somebody is getting chewed out in the boss’s office I’m sure.

  247. Dalrock says:

    “Works on my machine… Ship it!”

  248. Feminist Hater says:

    Well Earl, you care to mention how, if there’s a spectrum of human attraction upon which all humans find themselves, those who are on the left of the spectrum or bell curve – come to think of it – are to live their lives? Knowing that they’re unattractive and thus unfit for reproduction. Why should they be taught to entertain thoughts of marriage, relationships or family? This is not unreasonable talk here, there are at least (not counting how womens’ hypergamy rejects 80 % of men) 20 % of men and women who are so ugly, so disgusting as to not register at all with the sympathies of the rest of the population.

    That’s not cynicism, that’s reality.

  249. Cane Caldo says:

    @Earl

    FH is a good representation of what happens when cynicism invades the psyche.

    Fret not this fate. Your mind, Earl, is remarkably impervious.

  250. Hannah says:

    Feminist Hater seems to have an accurate handle on the state of things regarding those not blessed with any beauty…
    Much like Deti portrays an accurate picture of the SMP and MMP.

    @Feminist Hater:
    “That’s not cynicism, that’s reality.”

    Sometimes the truth is hidden under the carpet until we’re finally ready to really clean the house.
    Reality is just too ugly for some people to face, so they pretend it’s not really there at all.

  251. FH is a good representation of what happens when cynicism invades the psyche.

    Earl is a good representation of what happens when reality invades the world of horseshit, and what is left behind is far to frightening to acknowledge.

  252. Solomon says:

    This book/movie, The Mason Jar, definitely follows the narrative that womyn love about unconditional love.

    They see sappy boy and his unrequited love and they say “See? THAT’s true love. He loves her so much he prostrates himself and doesn’t require anything in return. That’s what I want, and I won’t settle, because I deserve it” LOL

    Even though they are not actually attracted to that guy, they do crave the servant boy sometimes to lessen life’s pressures so she can get more alpha bone

    They shame men into this Mason Jar mentality, which also follows perfectly with the ‘all sex is rape’ thing and so dudes shouldn’t want sex at all.

    The nice thing with the pining beta, of course, is that he doesn’t require her to lose weight, change any behavior, work hard, be accountable, be honorable, nothing. The craven little darlings will gleefully pursue their own doom as they elect men to facilitate their descent, beta enablers, to go along with her alpha servicers.

  253. James K says:

    @Feminist Hater

    Lol, a beta man is so mistreated, that any appreciation is taken as something more, a glimmer of hope. Or am I confused James?

    No suggestion of mistreatment; mainly social obliviousness and general cluelessness.

    Some people are “naturals” at relationships; the rest of us must learn, and some take longer to learn than others.

    It doesn’t help that, until very recently, the best teaching available was along the lines “be yourself; be interested in what she has to say; be a good listener.”

    Some people even advise “if you want to meet an honest woman who is looking for marriage, join a church.”

    I am glad to learn from blogs like this one why this advice was so poor.

  254. KWood says:

    If unrealistic means expecting that she hasn’t been with other men and is marriage minded, well then, guess I’m unrealistic; and truth be told, I’d rather keep being ‘unrealistic’ than marry a slut.

    Hater, the comment you’re referring to here was meant for other 40-somethings like me. It sounds like you’re a good deal younger, so by all means hold out for the right one. I wish you all the best.

  255. KWood says:

    The idea that men can’t really be friends with women is something I agree with, but being FRIENDLY with women is something I think all men should practice, day in and day out.

    The catch is, you need to exert inner self discipline to not expect anything in return. You may want something from time to time, and you’re always welcome to ask, but you need to know better than to expect it. Granted, this is kind of a ‘churchy’ way of looking at things, but it’s a great way to live nonetheless. I give this strange (or not strange) woman my niceness and she…does nothing. That’s it. That’s the secret formula. Be nice to the pretty girls, the not so pretty ones, the young ones, the old ones, the celestial, water-walking virgins and the alpha-chasing sluts in the fishnet stockings.

    This is not a good pickup strategy, clearly, but if you’re honestly looking to meet a nice girl, you’ve got to start out being nice yourself.

    There is, simply, NO OTHER WAY.

    Honestly. How the f*** else is it going to happen?

    “Someday a wonderful girl will be drawn in by my endlessly spiralling inferno of inner rage, hate, blame and pain, and see me for the really swell guy I am.”

    Not bloody likely.

  256. earl says:

    “That’s not cynicism, that’s reality.”

    cynicism: An attitude of scornful or jaded negativity, especially a general distrust of the integrity or professed motives of others

    There is reality…and there is your reaction to reality.

    You’ve seem to project that being invisible to a hypergamous women because of some perceived unattractive thing she thinks about you is something worthy of anger. I’m looking at it as a good thing…why would I want today’s modern American slut and her beta government dad to notice me. I realized I only have a finite amount of time on this planet that I want to have as much fun as possible with the stuff I decide to do. Ms. Slut and Uncle Sam would do everything they could to ruin me…so I say let them overlook me.

  257. earl says:

    “Earl is a good representation of what happens when reality invades the world of horseshit, and what is left behind is far to frightening to acknowledge.”

    Says the guy who believes women have no moral agency.

  258. Anonymous age 71 says:

    Ah, yes. The accepting a wife’s infidelity thing. I realize most of you are not married and probably never will be, and thus do not have kids and will never have kids. And, probably hate kids. Which on this thread makes you a real expert on kids and marriage.

    If you care for your kids, and you are a man, you do WHATEVER it takes to protect them. Fight lions with your bare hands. Charge in front of a speeding car to toss them to safety while you are killed. Dive into a raging flood to attempt to rescue them.

    Maternal custody isn’t as bad as being eaten by lions or struck down by a speeding car or trapped in a raging flood. But, maternal custody is by far the worst thing that will actually happen to most kids.

    Any man who will pull the trigger on his marriage and condemn his kids to the life of maternal custody (high probability of drugs and violence and going to prison for the boys; being raped by a street bum Mommy drags home, for the girls) when he can avoid it, is not a real man at all.

    In fact, having such a horrid choice is the worst thing I can say about marriage in the US and UK today. It should not ever be. BUT IT IS!!!

    Since you “men” only fight and bicker anonymously on the Web, and attack any man who disagrees with you on anything, instead of actually doing activism, that is why a man faces such a horrid choice. I put in my 10,000 hours. I am guessing most of you average about 0 minutes of actual activism.

    Should a man have to turn his back on infidelity to protect his kids from maternal custody? No, he should not. That is how screwed up our legal system is today. And, it is why I participate on DON’T GET MARRIED boards. Any man who marries should know what his real choices are going to be, and that includes over-looking infidelity to protect them from maternal custody.

    I am well aware that if I had pulled the trigger on my wife, both my kids would have been dead a long time ago. My kids don’t know about this issue, but they have both said in their own way if it weren’t for me, they would have died very young, and I agree. But, your kids future isn’t that important to you “men,” is it? Nope, your little boy egos are all that counts to you. To Hell (literally) with the kids. I gotta’ stand up for my wee wee to only enter pure flesh and to Hell with the worthless kids.

    The difference is my kids were 1,000 times more important to me than my wife’s chastity. Please have vasectomies ASAP.

    If I could have had her tossed out of the house and won custody, I’d have done it in a heart beat. Reality is doing ANYTHING about it would have exposed my kids to maternal custody. I did what I had to do to protect my kids.

    Your comments on this topic match most of your comments on this thread. Childish and thoughtless and not manly at all. Yet, you imagine you set high standards for manhood.

    On second thought, there is no need to give you “men” the insults you deserve. Nothing I could ever say would expose you to the world for what you are as much as your own words are doing. Please carry on.

  259. Ton says:

    Thus speaks the neutered beta.

  260. Ton says:

    K Wood, I know this will be unpopular but… if you think about it in survival terms ( where all this attraction is hardwired) the criminal being sexy makes a lot of sense. He is displaying all manner of SHTF survival traits. strength, courage a willingness to use violence and buck society/ break the law are all useful things when the world was most unsettled borderland. The guy leading an MC does so on his personal strength alone. There isn’t much of a legal or formal frame work for him to fall back on when he makes poor decisions or is a bad leader. His behavior must inspire his crew, he has to workout deals with other crews based solely on his reputation, his ideas have to earn the maximum cash with minimum exposure, he has to be personally willing (at lest in his recent past) to take on personal challenges, commit violence on behalf of the club an his own personal interest. All displays of strength and power.

    I don’t want to romanticize criminal life, but when you compare what a guy leading 12 dudes slinging dope must accomplish on his personal power vs any one who has formal power and a formal legal frame work to support him… it makes an ugly kind of rational from a survival of the fittest stand point.

  261. greyghost says:

    Ton
    You have made a good point. A civilized society based on merit and rights, freedoms, and responsibilities as written in the constitution allows the great portion of the male society to trigger the attraction of females in the most civil and productive way. Simple rule of law applied to all male, female, regardless of race and social order based purely on survival would be restored fairly quickly.

  262. Elspeth says:

    @ Ton:

    I don’t want to romanticize criminal life,

    No, you really don’t. The vast majority of those guys out there aren’t nearly as commanding as you migh think, number one. It just so happens that hood girls are largely as stupid as the average hood man and they can’t tell the difference.

    That said, you do have a point about a man who can handle himself on the streets and who is respected out there, criminal or not. There is a degree of power displayed that women (even women who should know better) find alluring.

    It’s not just the overtly strong or criminal types, as my daughter and I discussed recently. She says it’s basically the difference between a guy you senses can fight (metaphorically and literally), and one who is inept or used to having his battles fought for him. It’s not just physical either, but a sense of resourcefulness that makes a woman feel like this guy is going to take care of her no matter what.

    Given as she’s never even dated anyone, I don’t know where she got that from.

  263. earl says:

    Criminals have a greater sense of what faith in action is than most Christians do nowadays.

    Granted criminals evil plans will ultimately fail…but their lack of fear or being controlled by it and accomplishing a task is something Christians should take to heart when doing good.

  264. Elspeth says:

    I just thought of this Scripture Earl:

    So they came up to Baal-perazim, and David defeated them there; and David said, “God has broken through my enemies by my hand, like the breakthrough of waters.” Therefore they named that place Baal-perazim. 1 chron 14:11.

    David gives God credit while acknowledging that his own hands were the instrument of force used against his enemies.

  265. HawkandRock says:

    I love this blog but the “alpha/beta” slinging is tiresome and mars what is otherwise a comparatively thoughtful forum. Einstein reportedly said: “All things should be made as simple as possible but not simpler.” It’s good advice. The alpha/beta ‘paradigm’ is a great example of making something simpler than it actually is (resulting in all the absurdities you might expect).

    I will go so far as to say that one really has to be a special kind of dipshit to buy into the concept to the extent that I have seen here and other places in the “manosphere”.

    THINK, fellas! Stop embarrassing yourselves.

  266. deti says:

    Anon 71, Ton:

    Actually I’m with Anon 71 on this one particular thing. Anon did what he decided he had to do to protect his children. Full stop. With Anon being an MRA and doing the work he’s done I’m sure he saw the never ending horror show for children that divorce was. His kids even thanked him for being the parent who kept them out of gangs, drugs, prison, rape and premarital pregnancy. It was Anon, not his wife, who could keep them from all that.

    Cheating wives get no pass from me. I’ve often said I’d toss out the wife if she cheated and I KNEW I could get custody. But no one really knows what they’d do until they’re in the situation.

    That’s the measure of a man. You do what you are able, and what you must, to protect those in your charge. Anon looked the other way not for his wife (who was to blame) but for his kids (who weren’t). He knew that if he kicked her out, his children would bear the brunt of that decision. And Anon can correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s pretty clear that he excused NOTHING that his wife did. He knows she did it, he knows pretty much why; and he also knows who holds the moral high ground in his family. It’s just that she was the indirect beneficiary of the benefits and protections Anon decided to confer on his children.

  267. GKChesteron says:

    It is unpopular because as Elsbeth rightly points out it largely isn’t true. Most criminal gangs are only functional and fearsome _because_ of group action.

  268. Ton says:

    Weak men always find a reason not to act and a reason not to make the hard call.

  269. Mikediver says:

    First issue is the unattractive not reproducing. The estimate here that the bottom 20% will not reproduce is overly optimistic. DNA studies have shown that in the past (even with the patriarchal structures strong and in place) only 40% of men managed to reproduce. By reproduction it did not mean merely haveing a baby. You had to have a child that grew to maturity and then had children of their own. In most of the world, for most of history, that might have taken having a dozen babies. For women the odds were much better; 80% of women were able to reproduce. Once again this meant having lots of babies. This is why the women’s reproductive capacity was so vital; they had to produce lots of babies to be able to get some to maturity.
    The second issue is with Anon 71, who I respect greatly both for his life and for his ability to express truths and wisdom. I was in that ugly place of an unfaithful wife and a child. I did ignore the infidelity for quite awhile for the very reasons Anon 71 states. However, eventually my future ex wife continued to ratchet up the abuse, verbal, psycological, and physical, until I felt I had no choice but to pull the plug. My divorce was one of the 30% that was male inititated and I am here to tell you that It was driven by the female involved. It was the most painful and difficult decision of my life and the one that causes me pain even 25 years later. I wish this on no man.

  270. Zippy says:

    Ton:
    Weak men always find a reason not to act and a reason not to make the hard call.

    Because Doing What You Feeeeeeeel Like When You Are Really Really Mad And Dumping The Bitch And Disowning Her Spawn is “the hard call”.

  271. Joe says:

    Most women have a good radar for the frustrated chump – usually as a result of past experiences – and are careful not to do things that he will interpret as a “glimmer of hope”. What really confuses the beta is when he meets a woman who does not have such a radar. He thinks “she’s being really nice to me; it’s ages since I’ve met anyone who likes me this much; perhaps she’s the one!” – James K

    Yes, I agree. The confusion is intensified when he meets a women whose job is to be nice and friendly, such as at a trade show where she is at a booth demonstrating some new software. She may detect he’s a frustrated chump, but she doesn’t know whether he will or will not purchase the software. So she is nice and he wastes her time with useless prattle and leaves thinking he really impressed her. She even gave him her phone number (on her business card).

  272. Bee says:

    @MarcusD,

    “Hamster:”
    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=829483

    Here is another hamster:

    “She added that love is “non-negotiable” in her life.

    “Love. Love is everything,” she said. “We go in and out of love in our lifetime. I don’t like change… even though I love change. I love really hard, and when someone is in my life they are in my life forever.”

    http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/gossip/la-et-mg-kris-jenner-regrets-robert-kardashian-divorce-bruce-jenner-new-you-20131010,0,2771765.story

    Notice how she elevates love to be supreme; more preeminent than marriage. As Dalrock has written about here:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/04/18/but-we-were-in-love/

  273. Ton says:

    And there is zippy pimping the feminine imperative as expected. Making folks pay the price and upsetting your own life for your honor and justice is the hard call. Any pussy can act like it never happened.

    There is no strength in Christian men and the church will never be strong agin with men like you in it.

  274. KWood says:

    A ‘neutered beta’ with his own healthy and happy children living on into the future? That’s a new one.

    “Yeah, but the other betas are laughing at him.”

    That’s okay. His kids don’t mind, and they’ll be around long after all of us are gone.

  275. KWood says:

    Zippy wins the thread and topples the Christian Church in one fell swoop. GO ZIPPY!
    ;)

  276. KWood says:

    ‘Making Folks Pay’

    Yes, that’s just the sort of thinking Jesus would want in order to ‘strengthen’ the Christian Church!

    ‘Turn the other cheek’?

    That’s for pussies!

  277. earl says:

    “Weak men always find a reason not to act and a reason not to make the hard call.”

    Which reminds me of two pieces of advice I heard a while back that I have taken to heart.

    “never pass a fault”
    “you choose the behavior, you choose the consequences”

    That’s all you need to know if you don’t want to be a weak man anymore.

  278. earl says:

    “Love. Love is everything,” she said. “We go in and out of love in our lifetime. I don’t like change… even though I love change. I love really hard, and when someone is in my life they are in my life forever.”

    Women in general have no idea what real love is anymore…it’s only what their media brainwashing device tells them love is. That’s why I disregard women’s feelings because they change every hour like the weather…and only go by actions.

    When some lady says this type of nonsense…I know she has never loved at all in her life.

  279. James K says:

    Some of the comments are way too pessimistic.

    @Ashley:

    the whores monopolize the men. This can make it hard for a woman like me who is not willing to become a whore, even to get a husband.

    If you meet people through a social group, the whores provide a valuable service to the decent women: the men who screw the whores are not husband material, and are identified as such with no effort on your part.

    Similarly, the decent men are not in a hurry and will learn to detect and avoid the whores.

    @Feminist Hater

    there are at least … 20 % of men and women who are so ugly, so disgusting as to not register at all with the sympathies of the rest of the population.

    The joys of love, marriage, and family are ABSOLUTELY NOT off-limits to such a large number of men and women on grounds of their unattractiveness.

    The main problem for people on the left-hand side of the attractiveness bell curve is that they are attracted to the same things as everybody else – so it is easy for them to fall into the trap of thinking “I want someone to see past my own low attractiveness to my other qualities … but of course I want that person to be conventionally attractive.” You can read umpteen internet dating profiles that, translated into English, read “I am a very ordinary person who is looking for somebody fabulous!”

    All is not lost. Most of the bottom 20% are people who are voluntarily unattractive, and most of them have the power to escape this category. For women this often involves losing weight; for men, the biggest gain is to learn “game”. And then, don’t limit your search to people much more attractive than yourself.

  280. earl says:

    “the whores monopolize the men. This can make it hard for a woman like me who is not willing to become a whore, even to get a husband.”

    The whores monopolize the degenerate men. Just because the men who are deemed “top 20%” based off some female quadratic formula get the most ladies doesn’t mean they are good men or husband material.

  281. hurting says:

    Tolerating infidelity to remain a protective force in one’s children’s lives is a sign of strength, not weakness. In the US a woman can remove a father from his children’s lives effectively completely with the help of the courts.

  282. feeriker says:

    @FH @October 14, 2013 at 11:51 am:

    Yep, EXACTLY. You’d think more men would’ve caught on by now (they’ve had only, oh, about 800 years worth of head start).

  283. Ton says:

    What type of behavior dose passively accepting betrayal model to kids? Damn sure nothing useful

  284. James,

    All is not lost. Most of the bottom 20% are people who are voluntarily unattractive, and most of them have the power to escape this category. For women this often involves losing weight; for men, the biggest gain is to learn “game”.

    No to ALL of this.

    The bottom 20% are not unattractive because they need to lose weight or gain confidence. The bottom 20% are unattractive because they are ugly people, period. They were born ugly, they were ugly as children, and are very ugly as adults. Its as simple as it is. And that ugliness affects every aspect of their lives (not just intimacy with the opposite sex.)

    For some, these people go throughradical plastic surgery to try and change their lives, but it still isn’t enough. And just learning “game” isn’t going to get these men there, let me assure you. All doing “game” will do is get those women who are disgusted with the appearance of these men to change from nice ugly guys they don’t want to be around into asshole ugly guys that women will use law enforcement to force them to stay away!

  285. Michael says:

    I can’t tell you how many times I tried to “friends first” a girl in hopes on making a romantic connection or friendship that would “blossom” into something more only to have the door shut in my face again, and again, and again.

    Sitcoms dramas and other “chick flicks” create this kind of fictitious nice guy befriends girl scenario who then becomes a serious boyfriend or husband (he was here in front of me all along!). Women eat this up and ticket/internet sales prove it. Yet where does this actually play out in real life.

    These girls were almost all, yes all, out getting fucked hard by various guys or hopping from boyfriend to boyfriend. These were guys they met at:

    1) Clubs
    2) Bars
    3) Dorms
    4) Parties
    5) Reputations etc

    That was what I saw. These girls were young and hot and “having fun”. Everything, and I mean everything was just “having fun”. Yet they still needed someone, apparently male, to connect with in a way they could not get from the newest defensive end who was juggling 2-3 pussies on any given month. Those were the guys they spread their legs for. Inseminate me! Those were the guys they went face down ass up over. Spray it all over me! Those were guys they sucked off. Those were the guys they GAVE THE BEST YEARS OF THEIR LIVES TO.

    I was just the sucker they told their problems to. The guy waiting on hold until they were done “having fun”. My biggest mistake was “taking advice from a deer on how to hunt”. Trying to show I was good husband and father material. Trying to show them I was a sure bet to put their chips on for a long term relationship. Trying to understand her heart to show her I was a good guy and she could see I was not a player and my intentions were noble. Idealizing them and seeing the best in them. I just wanted to get married. That’s all I wanted. Instead I went through college and law school alone. But at least I had my principles. I was a Beta Orbiter and did not even know it.

    It was so frustrating to learn all this without anyone telling me well after the fact. And now, to add insult to neglect, these same (or suspect types) of women are suddenly interested? now they want to get married? Fuck them. They rejected me all those years during their there physical primes. They could not be bothered with a nice good looking guy going to law school looking for a family and a future with one women. They were out “having fun”. Fun was their god as described above. Yet now I’m suddenly good enough to marry?

    If only I could imbed photos on here. I would show you a picture of one of the girls I used to orbit when she was 19. Age has hit her. Her face looks busted (like duh duh goofy). Her legs are jellyish. She just looks stupid. And that is on facebook where everyone is a model. She is unmarried – and even if I did not know how many guys she was with in college (just in college let alone up until now) I would not even give her the time of day.

    The word is out ladies. Nice guys like me learned the hard way. Already right now you are seeing that crime doesn’t pay. As time goes on it’s going to be harder and harder to find that last minute sucker for you to marry and divorce.

    Credit goes to sites like this!

  286. Michael,

    Everything, and I mean everything was just “having fun”. Yet they still needed someone, apparently male, to connect with in a way they could not get from the newest defensive end who was juggling 2-3 pussies on any given month. Those were the guys they spread their legs for. Inseminate me! Those were the guys they went face down ass up over. Spray it all over me! Those were guys they sucked off. Those were the guys they GAVE THE BEST YEARS OF THEIR LIVES TO.

    Almost.

    Those were the guys these women were giving the best sex years of their life to, not the best years of their life. There is more to life than sex. And there are some things you can do in later years with her that she and you never even dreamed of in your early 20s. I know it seems hard to believe, but its true.

  287. Jason says:

    @Michael

    “”A pickup artist is a male slut””

    A PUA collects phone numbers….a man who understands “Game” get the action. A lot that I have read about Game concerns NLP(Neuro Linguistic Programming).Read Unlimited Power by Anthony Robbins.

  288. Michael says:

    I’ve read in the Bible that (to paraphrase) “all good things come from God”. Keeping that in mind I’ve always believed that beauty is a gift from God. “The lines have (to paraphrase) fallen in favorable places” (Psalms). There is no doubt about the advantage physical attraction has in life on this planet. Even ugly people who say “it’s only whats inside that counts” unconsciously favor a man or women of external beauty. Beauty is a gift from above. Yet what do young attractive (white) girls circa early 21st century do with this beauty given to them by God?

    1) Alpha Male
    2) Rocker Mc-Fuck-Buddy
    3) Tattoo covered loser
    4) Party Guy
    5) Mr. Sloppy Dressed Athlete who burps every 10 seconds
    6) One night stands

    Good guys are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND on that list. They WASTE IT on a list of sexual partners and SPEND IT on themselves. Some try to “capture” the guy by getting pregnant and become SINGLE MOMS. They are full of excuses!

    I was just looking at a Facebook page of a girl I knew from my town. She was stunning. A knock out 9 (a 10 in my eyes). Beautiful. Healthy. A full deck of royal flushes. She could have had ANY MAN SHE WANTED. ANY MAN SHE WANTED. What does she do instead?

    She gets impregnated by a drug using tattooed covered unemployed bar tender with “big ideas”. You know, that man with a certain look in his eye that is “going places life life”. Except that he never does and is full of excuses. She becomes a Single Mom working as a medical billing assistant for $13/hr.
    Her days could have been spent meeting her friends for coffee. Taking care of the kids. Planning family events. Living in a nice house. Driving an SUV. Picking up kids from Karate and Soccar Practice. Going to PTA meetings. Going to Church. Going on Vacation. Shopping. Spending her Husbands money (within reason of course). Making reservations. Hosting a pool party for her and her friends kids. Running errands. Running a side business from home (if possible). And having a good stress free happy life as a WIFE and MOTHER.

    Instead what does she do?

    The thing that makes me insane is that in her mind I’M THE LESSER MAN. The UNWORTHY MAN. And this guy, the guy behind on his child support payments and a temporary drivers license IS THE SUPERIOR MAN. Which she believed and has PROVEN WITH HER ACTIONS.

    I look at pictures of this girl and think about “what could have been”. It’s frustrating to see someone who was given a full deck of beauty and charisma throw it away. And by the way her kid is VERY unattractive. She traded this for what could have been.

  289. Michael says:

    @ innocent by stander boston

    Ha. Ha. Ha.

    You have got to be kidding me. Yes I know there is more to life than sex but nothing can replace her. Nothing. And sex is really where this is all cemented. A women who spends her sexual youth is “investing” it. What you said is something I would expect to her from single 35 year old women.

  290. Michael,

    Yes I know there is more to life than sex but nothing can replace her. Nothing. And sex is really where this is all cemented. A women who spends her sexual youth is “investing” it. What you said is something I would expect to her from single 35 year old women.

    I’m sorry you are hurting man. I’ve been there, believe me. It sucks. But yes believe me, she can be replaced.

    I’ve done it. I was in love (a few times) and much of that love was unrequitted. I took my love back and gave it to another who loved me. They were all replaced. Now I don’t even think about them.

    What I mean by the good times is that there is stuff you are going to do with that one woman in your 30s (and especially your 40s and 50s) that you couldn’t even imagine in your 20s. No, the sex will never be as good. That is correct. But it will never be as good for either of you. Her best performace years are in her 20s, as are yours. I know that stings but it is the truth.

  291. MarcusD says:

    I wonder if that is why women are so defensive about sexual histories – they know that it signals a higher chance of infidelity. The lowest rates of infidelity are amongst educated, 0-N, Christian, non-smoking, non-drug-using, high-IQ, healthy Asian women from an intact family with no abusive childhood. I think the infidelity rate is 0.006% (NSFG).

    To be honest, the (heightened) divorce and infidelity risk that is posed by most modern Christian women makes it rather easy to avoid marriage entirely (even if it means lifelong celibacy).

  292. feeriker says:

    Good guys are NOWHERE TO BE FOUND on that list. They WASTE IT on a list of sexual partners and SPEND IT on themselves. Some try to “capture” the guy by getting pregnant and become SINGLE MOMS. They are full of excuses!

    What makes you think such women DESERVE “good guys?” Anyone who puts their faith in divine justice (or universal justice, if you’re a humanist) believes that, If anything, these women deserve MORE of the Harley McBadboy F***buddy types they seem to prefer – all the way to the point where they’ve been used up and ridden hard and long by a whole dynastic succession of such “men,” where they are in such a state that the most pathetic of Zetas wouldn’t give them a second look without experiencing dry heaves. The good news is that things have reached a state today where things don’t even have to reach that level of extreme before most “nice guys” will pass with a “NEXT!”

    Remember: it isn’t YOU, the “nice guy” who is being punished by this, tempting as it might be to believe that. It’s hawtchick who’s being punished, especially once she hits 30.

  293. deti says:

    Michael’s tirade makes me think of several things.

    1. What he’s doing is necessary. Though I don’t know if Michael was ever an incel, it reminds me of M3’s “Confessions of an Involuntary Celibate”. Which anyone in Michael’s position should read.

    2. More specifically, Michael needs to excise the pain in the dark recesses of his mind and heart. After his tirade here is concluded I hope he’ll go there and allow God to cauterize the wounds. Posts like this only scratch the surface of the quiet desperation in the minds and hearts of millions of men.

    3. I’m reminded of a past that used to be (sort of); that our parents told us about and trained us for. It was an SMP in which a good job and stable life were “sufficient” to get a woman. Except they weren’t sufficient, really. What was necessary and what was not done was that boys be trained up and brought up into God fearing men. It’s a past that was illusory, that never was, that existed only in the imaginations of our parents who themselves didn’t know of what they spoke. Michael, they taught you of a world that doesn’t exist and never did.

    4. When you’re done, don’t stay in that place. We have to move on from the pain.

    5. The fact of the matter, Michael, is that the 9 who threw it away owed you nothing. And you owed her nothing; you still owe her nothing. It feels that she can’t be replaced, because what she was can never be again. But that has nothing to do with you now. Let her go; and she can be replaced. There’s nothing to be gained from the poor decisions of a girl you once loved, other than perhaps a mixture of pity, despair and schadenfreude. Once that is over, we should release her to God’s care and be done with it.

  294. feeriker says:

    I was just looking at a Facebook page of a girl I knew from my town. She was stunning. A knock out 9 (a 10 in my eyes). Beautiful. Healthy. A full deck of royal flushes. She could have had ANY MAN SHE WANTED. ANY MAN SHE WANTED. What does she do instead?

    She gets impregnated by a drug using tattooed covered unemployed bar tender with “big ideas”. You know, that man with a certain look in his eye that is “going places life life”. Except that he never does and is full of excuses. She becomes a Single Mom working as a medical billing assistant for $13/hr.

    To continue my last post, there you have it. You should be on your knees thanking God that you weren’t on this slutty moronette’s radar, no matter how much of a “10” you thought she was. It appears that stray dogs have more common(?) sense than she does.

    My own response to this Facebook entry would have been something along the lines of:

    1. “Man, what a bitchtard!”

    2. “Who’s the dumb sucker who’s gonna be paying child support (out of what little pocket change his lazy, uneducated, unemployable ass earns between menial jobs) to this stray mutt while she roams about getting knocked up by other feral curs?”

    3. “To think that her kid mighta been MY kid, that I could’ve been the one on the hook for subsidizing her irresponsible, immoral, hypergamous lifestyle after she kicked me to the curb, paying for a kid I’d probably never be allowed to see (and whose paternity I’d be forced to question).”

    4. “No need for me to visit a clinic to get tested for STDs.”

    5. “Man, that was an artillery shell I dodged!”

    In other words count your blessings that she wasn’t into “NICE” guys! Sometimes the only thing worse than not getting the hawt chick is GETTING the hawt chick – as Harley McBadboy F***buddy is probably finding out, whether he’s smart enough to realize it or not (highly doubtful that he is).

    Oh, and just for OT comic relief, see this story of the very smart and successful ueber-beta entrepreneur who tells, in his own words, about his experiences in dating a super model. It had me laughing so hard I nearly blacked out. (Goodonim for not staying with her. I came away from reading this story with a “gentlemen, NEVER try this at home” message stuck in my head.)

  295. feeriker says:

    Sorry, forgot that you can’t post imbedded links here. The story I was trying to link to in my last is this one: http://www.jamesaltucher.com/whats-it-like-to-date-a-super-model/

  296. MarcusD says:

    Posts like this only scratch the surface of the quiet desperation in the minds and hearts of millions of men.

    I think that situation would be comparable to the woman trying to seek commitment without having sex (prior to marriage). The only difference being the context in which it takes place (e.g. secular society, which encourages [unrestricted] sexual behaviour).

  297. feereker,

    The good news is that things have reached a state today where things don’t even have to reach that level of extreme before most “nice guys” will pass with a “NEXT!”

    Unfortunately for the nice guys (and the people of this nation as a whole) it never gets to this point. These women are never “NEXTed.” Those single moms ARE going to get married, they just marry government. Government Check Dad steps in and makes her (and her children) “whole” for all the kids she bred out of weblock with the alpha-mc-badboys (who could never support them.) So basically, she can get married anytime she wants (either to one man of his own free will, or every man in the country against their will.) LBJ and FDR saw to this many years ago. And if she married government (as so many single moms do) then not only are you (taxpayer-husband) going to financially support her (but not have sex with her), you are also going to underwrite her future sexual discretions for the rest of her life.

    You never get to NEXT her. She’ll marry government long before she lets you take a look at her goodies.

  298. Laszlo says:

    Michael,
    Read “No More Mr. Nice Guy” (R. Glover). This stuff runs deep and can have a lot to do with other factors in our youth. I’m not into psychobabble, but I found a lot of things about that book struck chords with me. It is not a comfortable read because despite the nurture and nature aspects as well as what our “culture” has piled on over the past x years, it still comes down to taking responsibility for ourselves, for finding our own dark truths and turning those things into what empowers us as men. Its a painful process. But if you are already feeling the pain, why not feel the pain from lifting those weights to get stronger instead of continuing to lie beneath them?

    “And now, to add insult to neglect, these same (or suspect types) of women are suddenly interested? now they want to get married? Fuck them.”

    This is something that a lot of women greatly underestimate. Delaying marriage, exploring, traveling, having their fun, etc. has many costs/risks but one of the seeming blond spots is the combination of their inability to attract the top men they used to and their sudden desire/need to marry; more specifically: how the men – now targets of her interest, will respond to this.

    An increasing number of men are screening out women because they hold the view that “what, NOW you are interested in ME?” (because you want to get married, because I have a good job, a home, am stable, safe, “nice”, etc. The cynical, pessimistic, suspect response to a woman’s (seemingly) sudden interest in marriage is quite common with men who were not able – be it beta, orbiter, or whatever, to accumulate the positive intimate experiences with women.

    I’ve lost what little interest I ever had in attempting to understand or communicate this mindset with women. Men’s feelings in general are largely irrelevant, but these types of things are especially prone to be circle filed into sour grapes. So be it. What I can do is elevate myself, work on my thoughts, and direct my energies into positive areas of my life. You need to flip the script. Build the life you want and a life that, through action, indicates your strength and your desire to be the provider that you can be – or already are – and then YOU are the MAN who is screening women for the position of WIFE. Those other women, forget them. The ones who red flag or are suspect, next them. But as long as you linger in resentment and anger, you are only limiting your own happiness and your ability to “filter” will be too jaded. You can be wise, savvy, and selective without that darkness lurking. I say this as a man in your shoes.

    It is not easy these days. I chose not to internet date at all because I find that it slips me into the negative mindset too easily. Commoditizing the whole thing is just a bore. And all of those women with the “those days are behind me”, “friends first”, “no players!”, “strong independent woman”, etc. is just too demoralizing; too easy to extrapolate that our entire culture, women first, is a lost cause.

  299. feeriker says:

    You never get to NEXT her. She’ll marry government long before she lets you take a look at her goodies.

    For now that’s true. But once the almighty dollar’s value drops to a point that makes Monopoly[TM] money look like gold certificates (think back to Weimar-era Germany, post-World War II Hungary, or present-day Zimbabwe) that’ll all change.

  300. feeriker,

    For now that’s true.

    It’s been true for 50 (or is it 80?) years. The almighty dollar has already dropped like a rock, still dropping. Still true.

    They just marry government.

  301. deti says:

    IBB:

    Most of the women I knew fitting the description Michael gives still found men to marry them.

    I’m from the Midwest, “flyover country”. We have no shortage of average and just-above average girls riding the rural and small metro-urban carousels. They all step off between the ages of 27 and 33 into the arms of willing delta/gamma chumps or retiring betas and lesser alphas. They all find some man somewhere willing to wife them up. So I don’t agree that they all marry Daddy Government. Sure, some do. Most snag a man and walk down the aisle.

    I’ve said it before and I’ll say again. If a girl wants to be married by age 25 before she can see The Wall, she can do it. She wants to find a husband, she can do it.

    Not so for men. A man wants to find a sex partner, he has to be alpha or beta to do it. He wants a wife, he will need to look way, way down in SMV. A 24 year old man faces much, much greater challenges than a 24 year old wonan does.

  302. Laszlo says:

    “A 24 year old man faces much, much greater challenges than a 24 year old wonan does.”
    Yep. Though the story being told everywhere but these corners of the interwebs is quite the opposite.

    Then problem is too many of those men hold onto that chip; they want those greater challenges (and I’d argue the marriage question is in close company with general responsibility, future orientation, and risk/reward cognizance as well) to have present value. They want the payoff, the exchange rate for those greater challenges to be equivalent in terms of mate quality – in present time.

    But they don’t often get that so they take that to mean they need take on more in order to continually raise their value to the point when they can attract and keep a mate – all within a dating/marriage market that is actively devaluing their currency daily. Some reach the point at which they can sell themselves short and still manage to find a decent marriage-minded woman, still many others do not.

    If it doesn’t happen for them, all of that built up work, the challenges, responsibility, are basically illiquid. By the time the female market moves to them – for whatever reason (wall? baby rabies? financial? competition with the herd? “I’m ready now”), the images and experiences he has endured, e.g. the squandering of female sexual intimacy, the devaluing of male willingness to invest and take risk, the progressive-liberal marginalization of the father (family unit), etc. that has happened in the interim, not only is he less inclined to sell short at all but the prospects in the exchange are now no longer viewed as decent marriage-minded women.

    He just can’t manage to see them as worth the risks and what is still ultimately a short-sell (family law assures that is income and NW will be sufficiently diluted/burdened). Call it entitlement and/or resentment on his part, but the difference for me is that these things don’t come from the ether, they come from men who desire to work and provide for a family, to love a woman as his wife but are not met with a population of women who know how to value those things.

    Meanwhile, the counter-party to the exchange has been spoon fed entitlement, has deeply internalized her sense options – real or imagined, and has been living her own lie for so long that when marriage starts to enter the equation, she can’t move past her short-term reward center. The SMP skinner box has her trained too well. So they end up spending several years on the electrified floor before they begin to come to “appreciate” certain attributes that those men have built their lives upon. By then, many of those men have taken the “what’s in it for me” baton to the notion of marriage and are running (away) with it. Nobody would notice or care if it were not for the fact that not enough of the UMC liberal high-achiever girls from good schools are pairing off at the great marriage meetup at age 29.5 to a slightly older, slightly more successful, much taller, slightly more handsome, slightly more aggressive, man who knows how to handle the modern strong independent women…and yoga.

    PS – dudes, get off of Facebook. By the time you realize nothing good comes from that interface – and all it has spawned, you will have already absorbed too much.

  303. KWood says:

    What type of behavior dose passively accepting betrayal model to kids? Damn sure nothing useful.

    And breaking up the marriage, with all the bitterness and chaos that ensues in their lives from that point on will teach them…what?

    How to make Mom ‘pay’?

  304. Michael says:

    @ Innocent Bystander Boston,

    She was one of many young women who followed the same profile.

    “Her best performace years are in her 20s, as are yours. I know that stings but it is the truth.”

    Actually my worst performance years were in my 20’s (unless your talking about the ability to maintain a non-stop erection in that case I fully recant)

  305. Michael says:

    @ Marcus D

    “I wonder if that is why women are so defensive about sexual histories”

    Beats me. I’ve wondered this for years. Even with the most “sexually liberated” women asking their N count they become terrified and detached at the same time.

  306. Michael says:

    @ Deti

    I’m not going to forget what was done to me until I have an attractive younger wife to occupy my off time.

    You said: “It’s a past that was illusory, that never was, that existed only in the imaginations of our parents who themselves didn’t know of what they spoke. Michael, they taught you of a world that doesn’t exist and never did.”

    Your incorrect. The marriage divorce and single mother statistics from that era prove it. My parents have been married 35 years. Their parents, and my great grandparents too. As a matter of fact most people we grew up with in the church and neirborhood were also married. Sure, you have divorces. That happens. However the vast majority were in fact married. Therefore people like me (yes they do exist) had no reason to believe otherwise.

    I believe that era was better than this era for men and there is no reason it cannot be again.

  307. Michael says:

    @ Feeriker

    Where is the story? Your link didn’t post…

  308. Pingback: Lightning Round 2013/10/16 | Free Northerner

  309. James K says:

    @Michael

    The raw pain does heal, given time.

    @Feeriker is right that you dodged an artillery shell. You fell in love with a beautiful woman who was trash inside. You, YOU, were allured by her beauty and the hardness of your boner to the extent that you could not see the content of her character. You have constructed a fantasy of what your life together would have been like, but believe me she would not have followed your script. More likely she would have had a child or two to keep you on the hook financially, and then she would have divorced you for the tattooed bartender, while keeping the SUV etc for herself.

    Part of healing is to accept responsibility for your own role in creating the situation that has given you so much heartache. To realize not that she was mistaken, but that you were mistaken.

    One thing that still troubles me is that we were never taught the truth about relationships. I absorbed the same nonsensical view that @deti mentions in his third paragraph, of a world that never really existed, and as a result I wasted at least a decade.

    School, church, parents will probably never be able to teach children the truth, because it is so unattractive and politically incorrect. Kids will do better to use Google, which will bring them to sites like this (among many others that are less helpful).

  310. greyghost says:

    Michael
    There is no “right” woman here to be had. And there damn sure is not going to be a worthy woman your age. Consider yourself born in Germany as a jew in 1929. Just the way it is for you and millions of men at this point in the time line. Just the way it is. Also keep in mind that a woman is a helper not the goal in life. Your comments tend to view marriage as the goal. It shouldn’t be. A woman is a helper not the end all be all. My goal was to be a father a woman needs to be seen as a uterus to grow a child in. Not romantic, not PC, not at all on the face of it kind. Don’t put so much value in a delusion it isn’t there and it never was there. This generation of men and all men in the future will not have the luxury of tradition and romance. It is gone forever.
    Knowing what I know now and to be in the position you are in I would be at an adoption center or some where getting a surrogate for my on kids and rolling back the lifestyle to fathering the children. Get snipped or some gandarusa and see women as sex pots. Dirty little secret for you “good” men out there…women behave much better towards men that don’t put a whole lot of value on women in general.

  311. earl says:

    “You should be on your knees thanking God that you weren’t on this slutty moronette’s radar, no matter how much of a “10″ you thought she was. It appears that stray dogs have more common(?) sense than she does.”

    That was my point earlier. Us men who are actually responsible and sane…should be thanking our lucky stars that such depraved women find us invisible. We don’t need their baggage or prison in our lives. We still have the commitment card and women know this. No amount of shaming to us about their choices in the past should change our mind about the fact that we can choose to get married or not based on our wants and demands from the woman.

  312. earl says:

    “You never get to NEXT her. She’ll marry government long before she lets you take a look at her goodies.”

    And stay in poverty the rest of her life.

  313. earl says:

    “Dirty little secret for you “good” men out there…women behave much better towards men that don’t put a whole lot of value on women in general.”

    Mostly because women don’t value women in general.

  314. earl says:

    “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper* fit for him.”

    *helper meaning helping you two achieve the highest of highs…or a very good help on the way to mutual destruction.

  315. deti says:

    Michael:

    What was “done to you” is that everyone around you lied to you about the society you were living in . The SMP your parents came up in was very different from the one they were raising you in; it’s just that your parents didn’t know that. That being said, it’s not that people are different, it’s that we’ve dismantled the structures which contained female conduct and hijinks.

    You say that it can be again as your parents had it. That’s quite unlikely during our lifetimes or those of my children. You might find someone willing to create that with you; but our society will not resemble the SMP of 1953 again for many, many decades.

    The girl you loved didn’t do anything to you, nor did she take anything from you that was yours. As I said before, she owed you nothing and still owes you nothing. But at the same time, you owe her nothing and you never did.

    Go and feel the pain. Let God heal you. Resolve that that pain will not destroy you. Read and learn here, and then apply what you’ve learned. Make women qualify to you; not vice versa.

  316. Joe says:

    @Michael October 15, 2013 2:55 pm

    I just wanted to get married. That’s all I wanted. Instead I went through college and law school alone. But at least I had my principles. I was a Beta Orbiter and did not even know it.

    I find it difficult to believe that you went through four years of college, three years of law school going to church all the while having a burning desire to get married and failed at meeting any, not even one, woman who appreciated you and shared your values. Sorry, I don’t buy it.

  317. Opus says:

    I am going to say nothing about Law School, other than that on the last day thereof and in the bar that hawt leggy-blonde who had sat in front of me all year poured a pint of beer over my head. What a waste of a pint! It was only later I realised it was her way of complaining that I had not made a pass and that now it was almost too late which given my obviously inebriated state it certainly was; I had no idea she was interested, but – I had a girlfriend whose father was Head of Legal for a Global Corporation – I was marginally more attracted to her equally slim brunette friend with whom she went around as if they were chaperoning each other. So perhaps that was the real cause – jealousy. The Brunette went out to The Cayman Isles, so as you see she was able to get well out of my league.

    It is true, however, that no matter how slutty, women are always very secretive as to their N number. There are however exceptions: those who calculate that a high N will demonstrate to you their desirability despite the risk of being thought slutty; and those who genuinely imagine that all men have similarly high counts so why shouldn’t a woman. It is then that I truly love equality for even as her MMV sinks to zero my seeming enthusiasm rises for Pump and easy-Dump.

    As a rule of thumb; in exactly the same way it is the sluts who will be first to cry Rape, it is the Sluts who are most ill at ease (their protestations to the contrary not withstanding) of any suggestion that they do not deserve the same deference and respect as more modest women. Modest women are not worried about their N count as they do not need to be – any more than they need to be about the prospect of being Raped.

  318. Ton says:

    It teaches son’s how to stand for themselves, to not accept poor behavior or disrespect and the nature of women. It teaches all children if they mess up they pay the price. Staying teaches them to be little bitches like their dad, or to the daughters, a woman can do anything without paying the price.

    Whatever occurs to the children is at the responsibility of the unfaithful wife, not the righteous husband.

    Paying the price for our bad behavior is what causes folks to change and for cultures to change one person/ step at a time. Folks here bmw all day long about how women behave the way the do because women, and their kids don’t pay the cost for their actions. Then y’all melt down when someone says they must pay the price. Really you want a foot in each camp

    The typical entry level criminal doesn’t have much going on for him and wasn’t the kind I was referring to. Do chicks really dig the street level “foot soldier”? What I have notice and commented on was more of leadership variety. Like a guy running a 40 man work crew in the corporate world or 40 man platoon in the military vs a man running a 40 man OMC crew. The guy running the OMC potentially has a lot more personal power then the other two and would be a better bet in a survival sense. His potentially is more readily assessed, speaks to a more primal part of the woman and likely would have been better survival option until relatively recently. Asking women to over come that kind of trigger/ response with rational thought is like asking my dog to recite Shakespeare.

    Michael, the tatted up “loser” is banging your 10 & has passed his genes along to the next generation. Sounds like he is winning to me. Which isn’t to rub your face into anything. This kind of thing is extremely subjective and really both of you seem to be doing well in different areas of life.

  319. hurting says:

    Ton says:
    October 16, 2013 at 11:56 am

    Your point about behavior modelling is not without merit, and beleive me, there are days when I seriously wonder if I should have pulled the plug on my marriage a long time before my now ex-wife did to demonstrate to my sons that things did not have to be a certain way. Here’s the problem, though. Your model assumes that the kids will figure out that you did the honorable thing by leaving, but how are they to do that? Your ex-wife will certainly be doing everything in her power to emasculate you even after your summary dismissal via divorce and will never bring into their lives the type of honorable person you and I envision ourselves to be.

    We as parents are strictly liable for the parenting of our children regardless of the misdeeds of our spouses. It is cold (no) comfort to a parent to know that the misdeeds of his putative partner in the endeavor is the proximate cause of the pain afflicting his children endure.

  320. Michael says:

    @ Joe

    “I find it difficult to believe that you went through four years of college, three years of law school going to church all the while having a burning desire to get married and failed at meeting any, not even one, woman who appreciated you and shared your values. Sorry, I don’t buy it.”

    I did meet several women. It’s just that I was against the bars clubs parties etc. I’m a a but of a non conformist and when I see the crowd all going in one direction like that, I pull away. I had to be forced/dragged to clubs, bars, parties and mostly didn’t enjoy myself there. Just holding out on the idea I was supposed to meet my future mate from this situation.

    I spent allot of time working for $7.00/hr and in the library studying. When I was not doing these things I was playing chess, tennis, or surfing. I did attend many social functions but was always, I don’t know, hoping to meet someone for an LTR etc. Many girls were not interested in that. I kept running into girls who were well below my appearance requirements for a mate. The girls I was interested in were interested in being friends and telling their girlfriends how much of a great guy was. I kept my negative opinions about their lifestyles inside.

    I wanted to meet a girl in college. Not in church. I went to church on the weekends when visiting my family. When on campus I did go to church. But not as much as I should. That’s for sure. When I went, it was out of desperation. The girls were well below my appearance requirements for a mate. It just wasn’t working. Looking back I think allot of them must have seen hopeless romantic desperation. There is no other reason for an average 5 to think I would be interested in “waiting” for marriage with her.

    I also admit something: I am vain. I won’t accept the idea of holding hands in public with an average 5 I met at church just because I need someone. It’s like I would rather be in pain and alone. Perhaps it’s a mental disorder. I was only looking for someone equal in appearance or better. It was like these girls were dating/spreading way, way above what they could get OR they were spreading for LOSERS.Now, I was fully aware that if I became what I considered a loser (drugs, drinking, drama, parties, tattoos, fucking different girls, making a name for myself etc) I WOULD GET PUSSY. I knew this for a fact. However I was consciously unwilling to do that. These girls continued their courses (the ones I knew and heard about) dating above their levels dating losers complaining to their girlfriends about the Alpha male they were banging desperately wanting to lock him down.

    Then in lawschool it was like these girls were walled off. Or maybe I was walled off. I don’t know. I just didn’t work out. Also I had a hard time in Lawschool because it was really hard and I had to study/work 24/4. Basically nothing happened because I didn’t make it happen. I did not agressively force what I wanted into existence.

    I took a female mentality of “who needs to try if it’s meant to be”.

    Hope I’ve answered your skeptisism.

  321. deti says:

    Michael:

    Your story’s all too familiar. In college you weren’t the tatted up pseudo-biker loser badboy. You wanted something more. You wanted to meet a “nice girl” not knowing that all girls, including the nice ones, love the bad boys and the loveable rogues. That’s why you didn’t get laid in college very much.

    Then in law school, the women were walled off from you. Female law students are in training to become Roissy-style lawyer**ts. Or, at the very least, you didn’t satisfy their hypergamous instincts because you were their peer, not their superior. Those women didn’t perceive you as somehow “above” them or “better” than them.

    Any man who thinks he’s going to meet his spouse in law school had better have more than just his intelligence and ambition going for him; because the women he’s attending law school with are just as intelligent and ambitious as he is, if not more so. I seriously question in today’s day and age how good a spouse a female lawyer makes anyway.

  322. Ton says:

    I’d not call you vain, you want the max payout for all your effort. Clearly you spent a lot of effort. Its natural to want the max ROI.

    I understanding hurting. Been there myself but comfort is for women and kids.

  323. Buck says:

    @
    “I also admit something: I am vain. I won’t accept the idea of holding hands in public with an average 5 I met at church just because I need someone.”

    This is NOT vanity!!!!
    It is actually no different than the “no-rings-for-sluts” mentality. If you cannot deep down feel good about the one you are with, then it is better not to suffer or let them suffer any allusions.
    In my own case, I have a militant no tattoo policy…tats are an immediate “next”. I could never feel good about being with a tatted up woman.
    Fact is I quizzed the lovely and gracious Mrs Buck about tats, told her they are a deal killer!
    Not vanity, just fact!

  324. greyghost says:

    Just back from work Mike
    Check this out Dude. http://www.fertility-docs.com/gay_surrogacy.phtml
    One of the things about society today is that there is always a silver lining. You can even pick the egg donor. Get you some fine ass chick with big ass titties, and get your self a tall chick too. Get you some Gandarusa. Go out and find you a fine chick that only based on physical appearance makes your dick hard. Start talking shit, running game, or holla at that ho what ever your term is and let her know her physical appearance brought you over. With a clear head you will be screwing that chick that night. You are not shopping for a wife just something to put dick in and a baby sitter for your boy when you are out screwing her sister.
    Enjoy yourself.

  325. feeriker says:

    I absorbed the same nonsensical view that @deti mentions in his third paragraph, of a world that never really existed, and as a result I wasted at least a decade.

    I disagree with the assertion that the “world” in question never existed. It did, but unfortunately, it existed long before we were born or before we were old enough to understand it and benefit from it.

    The problem, I truly believe, is that our parents remained convinced that this world, the one THEY grew up in and got married in, the one that they hoped would be there for their posterity, still existed by the time we, their children, came of age. The fact that not only did this world no longer exist by that time (not even residual traces of it), but that they, our parents, allowed it to collapse was a blind spot for them, one that they simply could not accept. To accept such a state of affairs as fact would, after all, indicate failure on the part of their generation for not “nipping the disease in the bud.”

    As deti so correctly put it The SMP your parents came up in was very different from the one they were raising you in; it’s just that your parents didn’t know that.

    I’d only add “and they didn’t WANT to know anything different either, even to the detriment of their own children.”

  326. Anonymous age 71 says:

    deti says:
    October 15, 2013 at 8:46 am
    >> And Anon can correct me if I’m wrong, but it’s pretty clear that he excused NOTHING that his wife did.

    Exactly. For the moment at least, Deti is my hero. He understands exactly.

    But, let me make it clear. I do not always spell the whole thing out. I did not actually catch her in an affair. Men wiser than me have said a man or woman KNOWS when a spouse is having an affair, even if they don’t catch them. During that summer, we still had marital relations. But, when we did, she did a good job at it, but it was like her mind was far away, not where we were. Later, it went away. I thought a lot and assumed she was having an affair as the only explanation for that strange attitude. I did not talk about it for years, but a few years ago, I posted it on a Member’s Only board, and men who had the experience and caught her at it, said, yes, that strange attitude correlated with an affair.

    And, of all things, he really was a rock band drummer at night, no joking.

    I am a strong man. Not physically. I spent 10 years as a militant FR/MR activist, and was easily the most hated man in my rural city of 100,000. You smart-alecks who call me weak because I preferred the welfare of my kids over bull ape ego don’t seem to be doing much public activism, heh, heh. No balls, I guess.

    I must wonder if some of you are so ignorant that you believe a REAL MAN(tm) could have filed for divorce and won custody? While it is hard to believe men can be that stupid, I found it was so when I did counseling. At least 30 years ago, standard court practice was that a woman’s adultery was not her husband’s nor the court’s business. Just another private decision. Unless you can show direct harm to the kids, such as leaving them unattended for days or one of her lovers abuses them.

    There is a thing in the Bible about not judging, leave it for God. She will have to answer for her sins, not me, though Churchianity insists I must pay for her sins.

    Anyway, most of you apparently heard it here first. If you can spare your kids the worst thing that is likely ever to happen to them, maternal custody, by tolerating infidelity, do not listen to the bar drunks who tell you you MUST do something about it or you are not a real man. There is something wrong in their brain. Among other things, they don’t much like kids.

    One residual problem. I do get hit on here by gorgeous women over 40 years my junior. Even after many decades since that possibe affair happened, it is tempting to say, MY TURN. I don’t because it is for my own good to live a moral life, even if she did not.

  327. Michael says:

    “The problem, I truly believe, is that our parents remained convinced that this world, the one THEY grew up in and got married in, the one that they hoped would be there for their posterity, still existed by the time we, their children, came of age”

    I’ve been telling my parents of the way things are today for years – and they don’t want to believe me. They met in college and have been married 35 years.

    My point to Deti from before was this type of world / society did exist at one time to the overwhelming benefit of men, children and yes, women. And it can exist again albeit in a different form.

  328. KWood says:

    There’s a truly brilliant article here that all of us can learn from. I know I did.

    http://markmanson.net/vulnerability-and-manipulative-women

    Enjoy.

  329. Ton says:

    Could you formulate a paragraph that sounds like a man worte it?

    How much strength does it take to be an activist in the West? Preaching the Gospel in Saudi strength? Sneaking Bibles into China strength? What did your activism accomplish? Not much as far as I can tell.

    Yes I dislike kids so much I had two of them of my own and have 4 living under my roof in the now.

    We are in this mess becuase “men” don’t do shit about the shit sandwich women give them, then get pissy with the men who won’t and advocate other men don’t.

  330. earl says:

    “We are in this mess becuase “men” don’t do shit about the shit sandwich women give them, then get pissy with the men who won’t and advocate other men don’t.”

    What could he have done that would have not been eating the shit sandwich? Get divorced and then be railroaded by a corrupt system built by even weaker men, never see his kids while they get corrupted by her propaganda and abused by alpha bad boys she pleasures, and live a life of poverty. At least he would have been a real man in the eyes of Ton…which I guess means something to you.

    It’s a rock or a hard place for most men in pretty much every avenue with women these days.

  331. Joe says:

    @ Michael,

    Thanks for the explanation. You didn’t mention what type of college you attended for your undergraduate degree. I may be wrong, but I assume it was a secular college. If you had attended a Christian college, do you think you might have met a nice girl that met your appearance requirements?

  332. Joe says:

    I’ve been telling my parents of the way things are today for years – and they don’t want to believe me. They met in college and have been married 35 years. – Michael

    Great that your parents have been married 35 years, however in my place of employment there were many divorces after 25 – 35 years of marriage. The ex-husbands have continued to work otherwise they lose a good portion of their pension should they retire. Longevity in marriage is no guarantee that the marriage will continue.

  333. hurting says:

    Ton says:
    October 16, 2013 at 3:32 pm

    I’ve never demanded comfort for me or my sons, just the opportunity to positively influence them (for me) and the chance for them to thrive. We’ll see how it turns out.

  334. Michael says:

    I just had to share this video. It made me jump up in the air and pump my fist. I think you guys will love it: :)


    :)

  335. Michael says:

    Actually upon further analysis he was kind of caddy before she changed her body language. :)

  336. locard says:

    Hello, I am new here, and I was wondering if anyone has the same (or similar) experience as me: I am 39 years old, mother of two, and have been with my husband for 11 years. When I met him, I was recovering from an unstable relationship with a charismatic (and unreliable, unfaithful) alcoholic, and my dad had just died, which left me in deep despair. So I guess what I looked for, was someone very stable and secure. My husband is.

    But after a while, I realised this really wasn’t enough. However, I got pregnant, and we have stayed together. The sex has always been very difficult, and I usually need to be drunk to be able to have sex with him. Usually I sleep in the kids’ room to avoid the whole problem. We have sex a very few times a year, and afterwords I feel shame, almost as I imagine I would have felt if I had ended up having drunken sex with a close female friend (in other words, someone I like but don’t feel attracted to at all).

    We have a good friendship, we can laugh and joke, watch television and talk about politics etc., but he gets depressed when we talk about our relationship. He knows how I feel, and he knows I don’t feel that he loves me either. He claims he does, but it doesn’t feel like love to me. And he doesn’t take much initiative in any direction, but leaves it to me.

    However, he doesn’t want to get divorced. I suspect it’s partly because he really dislikes all changes (he never changes his job, has lots of routines he refuses to change etc), and he might also be worried about becoming lonely. I think he is worried he might not find anyone else.

    I am also worried about becoming lonely, and I am naturally deeply worried about how the children will react if we divorce. I also worry about finances, and a lot of other things. So for now, I am just staying and waiting.

    I guess what would change everything, was if my husband met someone else, fell in love and suddenly wanted to break out. I would feel happy on his behalf if that happened. But he is quite timid and modest/shy, so I don’t know what the chances are.

    And at the same time, I sometimes really wish for another life. I wish I met someone I could love and grow old with.

    If anyone can relate to this at all, I would love to hear from you. It feels quite lonely sometimes, and it’s not something I speak to anyone about, really.

  337. locard says:

    True Love! Haha

  338. Michael says:

    @ Locard,

    Wow. Did you push out two kids with someone else before or during your current marriage or are they his?

  339. locard says:

    not me, lost my first comment that detailed that, this is for entertainment purposes only

  340. Martian Bachelor says:

    “Among the women’s clubs and in the women’s colleges, I have no doubt, there is still much debate of the old and silly question: Are platonic relations possible between the sexes? In other words, is friendship possible without sex?”
    – H.L. Mencken

    Way to go, guys. You’ve ruined Dalrock’s. Turned into a women’s club.

    Stupid manosphere. BAD manosphere. lolzzlolzz

  341. Ton says:

    Good luck and God’s blessing to you and yours hurting.

  342. hurting says:

    Ton says:
    October 18, 2013 at 2:09 pm

    Thanks. Back at ya’.

  343. deti says:

    Locard:

    I can’t tell if you’re a troll or not. But assuming you’re not, I’d make the following observations.

    You’re not attracted to the father of your children. This is very, very unlikely to change. This was an error on your part which was a direct result of your deciding to marry someone who was and is a diametric opposite from your alcoholic, unstable ex (who was a Harley McBadboy who gave you the tingles but otherwise made your life a living hell). You decided have sex with/marry your Harley because he turned you on and the sex was great, but he just about ruined your life.

    You married your current man because of what he was willing to give you and do for you; not what you felt for him or felt about him. You were downright selfish, heartless and cruel to this good man. But, nonetheless, he seems to be OK with how things are.

    You should remain married to this man for your children’s sake. Perhaps things will improve; perhaps not. I really don’t know. You decided to waste your life, first with a Harley McBadboy, and now with a man you aren’t attracted to and never were, and who you insult and injure by saying you have to be intoxicated to have sex with.

    You also ruined your husband’s life by depriving him of the chance to be with a woman who is attracted to him and does love him, and by insulting and injuring him. At the very least, please don’t ruin your children’s lives by divorcing their father and separating your children from them. Stay married to him and suck it up for their sakes. Since you haven’t said that you cheated on him, I can’t recommend divorce.

    I say this only half tongue in cheek, and can’t believe I’m about to write this. If you really want your husband to be happy, have an affair and then confess your adultery to your husband. This will give him grounds for divorce and free him up for remarriage. In the divorce that will inevitably follow, immediately confess that you committed adultery. Agree to a court order that allows you to leave the marriage with your clothes and jewelry and maybe one of the cars, and that’s it. Sign over the house and the marital property to your husband. Agree that your husband will have permanent residential custody of your children. You can see your kids every other weekend. Agree to an order that requires you to pay child support.

  344. deti says:

    Locard:

    One last thing: Make sure the court order denies you alimony with prejudice forever, and with no recourse to seek a modification of that order.

  345. sunshinemary says:

    If you really want your husband to be happy, have an affair and then confess your adultery to your husband.

    Wait, no. Don’t do this. And deti, even in jest, this isn’t wise counsel. Remember that we write for the lurkers…

    I think you are probably not for real, Locard, but let us proceed as if you are in case there is someone reading who is really in this situation. Do not have an affair. Please stay married for your children’s sake. Perhaps some attraction can be generated. Maybe not, but you should try anyway. If it can’t be, still you should not have an affair or divorce the father of your children. This mess is not their fault, but they will be the ones who suffer the most if you divorce.

    I can’t promise it will help, but you could try the advice in a post I wrote on my old blog:

    Advice for a former slut married to a beta provider to whom she is not sexually attracted.

    Best wishes.

  346. Feminist Hater says:

    Lol, he shouldn’t have put a ring on it…

  347. feeriker says:

    “Locard” said The sex has always been very difficult, and I usually need to be drunk to be able to have sex with him.

    WOW. Why don’t you go grab a butcher knife from the kitchen cutlery set and just castrate him? That would be less painful for him.

    I too think you’re nothing but a troll, but, assuming that you’re “for real,” I really hope your husband finds a good counselor/therapist, PRONTO, to help him deal with your sexual rejection of him. He’s gonna need it, if he doesn’t already. And no, I don’t recommend “marriage counseling” for him, which implies that he should involve you in it. Based on my own personal experience from the man’s perspective, “joint” marriage counseling is a complete waste of time and money under even the best of conditions (where both spouses are at least amicable to each other and actually want to fix their marriage) and is not only useless, but counter-productive and harmful to the man if the wife is not interested in fixing things. The counseling I recommend here would be about your HUSBAND’s piece of mind and restoration of self-image – which, from the sound of things, could not involve you.

    deti said I say this only half tongue in cheek, and can’t believe I’m about to write this. If you really want your husband to be happy, have an affair and then confess your adultery to your husband. This will give him grounds for divorce and free him up for remarriage. In the divorce that will inevitably follow, immediately confess that you committed adultery. Agree to a court order that allows you to leave the marriage with your clothes and jewelry and maybe one of the cars, and that’s it. Sign over the house and the marital property to your husband. Agree that your husband will have permanent residential custody of your children. You can see your kids every other weekend. Agree to an order that requires you to pay child support.

    I know that deti said this (at least half) in jest and SSM is also correct to point out that it is absolutely not the answer. However, in reading what you wrote, I confess to struggling with the dark side of myself, the side that says that deti’s idea is spot on and that you would be getting your just desserts by following/being made to follow his advice. I know nothing about either you or your husband, but based on what you’ve written, even if the genders were reversed I would say that you don’t deserve the stability and comfort your husband has given you and that for you to display such overt disrespect for and loathing of his sexuality is beyond reprehensible. Were it not for your children’s sakes, the same dark side of me that is looking at deti’s advice in a favorable light would also be wishing that you would be foolish enough to ditch your husband for another Harley McBadboy F***buddy so that you could partake of more of the same dog vomit you ran away from.

    But I’m not going to let that dark side guide my advice to you. Instead, I’m going to pray that 1) you learn to face what has always been hurting and slowly destroying you and that you heal yourself of it, and 2) that you and your husband re-discover each other, find the spark, learn to genuinely love each other for who you both are, and let God take control of your lives. Nothing else will stand a chance of providing the necessary healing – if that’s what you really want.

  348. greyghost says:

    Locard
    Get a bottle of gin and a case of cisco and have regular sex with your husband and make sure to sleep with him. Tell him as often as once or twice a week how awesome his is for staying with a selfish ,drunk nympho like yourself.

  349. Prariepoly says:

    Regarding friendship between men and women:

    I beleive it is entirely possible in the context of married (or otherwise commited) individuals where the men have respect for each other. That is, it is easy to be freinds with my bestfreinds girl without any particular attraction or innuendo becasue I respect him and know she is his. There doesn’t need to be innuendo because there is no need for desire between the parties, both parties have the sex they want, there is no real profit in pursuing each other for any reason.

    Respect between men (and nothing else) allows for platonic male\female friendship.

    In the case where either the man or woman are single it will not be possible, because the single one (or both) have latent desires that they will naturally seek to fulfil as expediently as possible.

    Even then, if the man is single but has a great deal of respect for her man it is not impossible that he should never make a move and be able to have a freinship, esp if he is lower in the social hierarchy.

  350. Joe says:

    @Prariepoly-

    That is, it is easy to be friends with my best friend’s girl without any particular attraction or innuendo because I respect him and know she is his.

    It all depends on what you mean by “friends” and how that friendship is worked out in the context of the relationship among you, your best friend and his girl. Would your best friend care if you took his girl out say to a sports bar to watch a football game – just the two of you? She likes football and he’s busy at work. You’re going as friends, so no big deal, right?

  351. Prariepoly says:

    @ Joe,

    No, in that particular case on rare occasion I’ll go to shoot pool with just her if everyone else is busy and we’re bored. It’s not a deal at all, we’re just bored and hanging out. Usually we coordinate our schedules better to hang out in a bigger group, but it’s not always possible.

  352. 8oxer says:

    I ordinarily consider the Dalrock blog far too valuable to respond to idiot wimminz on it, but SSM, Deti, Freeriker and Grey Ghost are all involved, so what the hell…

    I know that deti said this (at least half) in jest and SSM is also correct to point out that it is absolutely not the answer. However, in reading what you wrote, I confess to struggling with the dark side of myself…

    HAHAHAHAHA! I must tell you nice fellas that it will be a miracle if such a woman does *not* eventually do what you all suggest. Deti is not on the dark side at all. He’s merely coming to a logical conclusion.

    Mark my words that this whore will eventually bang some other dude, and her husband will find out. She’ll rapidly go from “the honorable Mrs. [beta]” to “skank ho single mom number three” in one of my less selective pal’s rotation. She’ll be passed around a few dozen times among the crew I run with (some of the older fellows aren’t too picky) after which she’ll get a few cats and settle into spinsterhood.

    Whores like this who don’t respect their husbands always get what’s due them. I see it constantly and consistently. Her husband, in contrast, will be rid of her skank ass, and will probably end up banging a hot 24 year old who will be eager to be his wife (assuming he’d give her the opportunity) and find happiness in pleasing him.

    Regards, Boxer

  353. Elspeth says:

    I think “Locard” is a fake. But assuming she’s not she should just keep a bottle of her favorite red wine in the house and do her duty for the sake of her children.

    Our happiness is the not the be all end all of life. Pursuing it just makes you a horrible person in the end.

  354. Pingback: Links and Comments #17 | The Society of Phineas

  355. Roland says:

    @Michael: 3:49pm

    A little late for me to comment but I know exactly what u are saying. I knew of a similar girl in the past, with the same history. She liked me in her tween years, but as she got older, she got used to all the alpha attention and was then toying with me – the beta boy – for practice to get the alphas (which she did). When she was 18, she would go to bars and she had (at least) 10 guys giving phone numbers to her after she danced ‘The Maca’ dance. 2 decades later, she is losing her looks (although still handsomely attractive for a cougar), has 1 kid (with an ex-super-alpha), now sleeping with married men because she says there are no good men out there. Even a few years ago, she tried to hook up with me which I resisted (and it was tempting). I am not embarrassed to say that I held a torch for her for a very long time, and in some distant way, I still do. Even lately she contacted me about doing her a favor for her kid, which I ignored.

    I don’t know about your ‘9’ girl..but this one I know is extremely manipulative, but has a kind and sweet demeanor. A wolf in sheep’s clothing for sure.

    Based on your comments, you sound like you still have lots of youth in you. My best advise for you is to interrupt this pattern and keep busy by dating lots of women @THE SAME TIME. Whether u sleep with them or not is up to u. Flaunt that ca$h in front of them. Make the women feel as if THEY are competing for U and NOT U competing for THEM. It will be out of your comfort zone but if u are a successful beta, consider it a project that u cannot fail. If u do this, I am sure u will find one of them that will meet your physical, emotional and spiritual requirements.

  356. Ri Ri says:

    Romantic love is important in marriage, but it should not be the foundation upon which marriage and family is built.

  357. Ri Ri says:

    It seems the only thing this culture has to offer is sex (romantic love) and nothing more.

  358. Pingback: Doublethinking Lust I: Sex Ed | Things that We have Heard and Known

  359. cptnemo7029 says:

    Reblogged this on Chastisement 2013 and commented:
    Great Post!

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s