Red pill bitterness

Several readers have asked me to elaborate on a point I made in regarding “the red pill” and empathy for women.  See the previous post for full context, but my point was regarding this post by Samson’s Jawbone where he wrote:

Roissy is fond of saying that he’s not a “misogynist”; no, learning the unvarnished truth about female psychology has given him a *higher* appreciation for women. Not so for me. Sociosexual philosophy has disillusioned me beyond all reckoning. Peering deep into the psyche of woman has rendered me grievously scornful in feeling and mercilessly unscrupulous in behaviour towards these unholy, ungodly beings. I venture to say that… I hate them. Yes, I hate them! And how could I not?

Samson wrote that two years ago, and at the end of December 2012 he left this comment on my site:

I do actually agree that over-immersion in the manosphere makes one cynical and removes some of the romance from life, forever. Whether this outweighs the benefits of learning the truth is unclear, but I think it’s more important than I used to. I often wish I had my innocence back.

As I mentioned in Backlash, understanding women better has only increased my empathy for them.  This is true even though I’m willing to call out bad behavior by women.  In fact, failing to confront bad behavior by women is the primary way Christian men are failing women today.

My increased empathy for and understanding of women has helped me when composing advice for women both here on the blog and on Yahoo Answers.  I haven’t done a formal count, but I believe I’ve offered more advice on both the blog and Answers to women than to men.  My willingness to offer honest and (hopefully) helpful advice to women has at times frustrated my readers.  In June of last year I offered advice to unmarried women on how to avoid the marriage crunch so many of their sisters are already experiencing.  Commenter Nas asked:

You know this one thing really bugs me about many in the manosphere, the desire and need to give females advice. What team are you playing for anyway?!

I asked Nas what about my post made him angry;  that I was giving women good advice, or that they won’t take it?  He responded:

- Both but especially the latter.

But Samson’s issue was far deeper.  Understanding women left him with at worst an intense hatred for women, and at best a greatly reduced ability to feel love for women.  The first is an overreaction to starting from a position of overlooking all sins committed by women.  If you nurtured a fantasy that women are innately good then seeing their sins for the first time is bound to be jarring.  This is especially true given that the widespread pass given to women has encouraged an immense amount of bad behavior.  If you are struggling with this be careful not to paint all women with the same brush, and to understand the pass which modern men have offered women for what it really is, cruelty dressed as kindness.

This doesn’t mean there is no place for anger at injustice, but to keep the larger picture in perspective.  This means not seeing “woman” as a faceless collective, but making a serious effort to see individual women for who they are.  The “red pill” helps us understand their different temptations from ours, but understanding this should help us empathize and relate to our own imperfection.  Key to this process is keeping in mind the importance of repentance.  One of the most powerful biblical examples of sin and repentance (for me) is the scene in Matthew where the rooster crows and Peter suddenly realizes he has betrayed Christ exactly as Christ had predicted.  Overwhelmed with this sudden recognition, Peter wept bitterly*.

My advice in this area is to first consider your own failures, those you have truly repented from.  With this in mind try taking the knowledge you have learned in the manosphere and apply it trying to help one individual woman at a time.  Part of what you should have learned is how women are likely to react to your message, so you can tune it for maximum likely effectiveness.  This requires putting yourself in her shoes as much as possible, and this is at the core of empathy.  There is of course no guarantee that she will accept your good advice, no matter how expertly framed and communicated.  However, if you are doing this well you should see that a good percentage of women are surprisingly willing to hear advice which goes entirely against the grain of our culture.  As you do this you will start to see just how profoundly unhappy very large numbers of women are with the status quo.

The second problem with Samson’s reaction to learning the truth about women is his stated difficulty loving women.  He says knowing the truth has left him cynical and removed some of the romance from life, forever.  But what he longs to recover is something he never really had.  He was in love with a fantasy, something which wasn’t real.  If you can’t love a woman after understanding the truth, you never really loved her.  Ironically the common complaint by men bitter about the red pill is that they can’t accept the fact that women aren’t attracted to “their real self”.  There is a bit of fantasy-demolishing truth here, but it also overlooks something critical;  it is in men’s natures to be leaders, to strive for dominance.  Being a whimpering emoting wife-following beta shouldn’t be your natural state, your “real self”.  If it is, then this is your real problem, not learning the truth about the problem.  Note that I’m not saying beta is bad, but there are both negative and positive aspects to beta.  Learning that the more craven side of beta turns women off shouldn’t disabuse you from retaining the more noble side.  But to do this you need to take a hard honest look at who you are.  If you are feeling bitter, this is almost certainly coming from the ignoble side of beta.

Also keep in mind that if you truly love your wife you will want to understand how to make her feel loved.  If you are selfishly hung up on retaining a childish fantasy about women, you can’t understand her well enough to understand what she craves from you.  That she is much more likely to be craving decisive leadership from you than fawning footrubs shouldn’t be a problem unless you are in a very unhealthy mental place as a man.

*See also this scene in John where Christ confronts Peter.

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404 Responses to Red pill bitterness

  1. From what I’ve seen, there’s two forms of bitterness men developed when learning the truth. The first is the natural state if grieving at the loss of the lie of perfection and the sunk costs involved in how a man structures his life around the dream of women.

    The second is a lack of adaptation of a mans goals and dreams to reality on the ground. Either not adapting to necessary changes you’d need to make for it, or completely discarding the goal as worthless when it is actually what the individual needs to achieve happiness. Marriage is the big one. Either giving up too soon when the individual shouldnt, not giving up when he should, or refusing to protect himself by proper vetting/prenup/expat/whatever.

    I’ve seen many individual recoveries from bitterness once the individual actually takes the usual 6-12 months to process their individual needs and then actually act upon them. But there will always be self destructive people that dont take the time, then build a hard bitterness in their hearts. Not everyone can overcome these trials, just as any other trial. Thats why we call them trials instead of check marks in life. Simply avoid those people, whether they’re male or female.

  2. Ras Al Ghul says:

    I think the problem is more fundamental then you’re describing. What you are asking is men that have been betrayed by church, culture, their govrnment, society and by other men, with women taking (however they are unhappy about it) the benefits of this betrayal and betraying them either actively or passively accepting it as well and then telling them to help these women.

    The tale of the prodigal son comes to mind. Women being the one that has taken half of everything, squandered it and debased themselves and then you are proposing to prepared the fatted calf for them when they come back.

    And the men you are addressing are saying “What gives?” “Everything has been given her, I have not even had the benefit of having a calf to eat with my own friends, she’s been out partying and you wish to welcome her back?”

    And sadly, this has been essentially the message men have been getting from their church this whole time “forgive the sluts” and “love them” and “you’re as deeply mired in sin as she is.” Which I suspect is the source of the frustration.

  3. okrahead says:

    Ras,
    In the parable of the prodigal son, the prodigal repented and returned after squandering his inheritance. What the churchians are doing is telling the womynz to keep on partying, we’ll keep sending you checks from your ex-husband, so don’t bother repenting and coming home.
    This is the real problem with churchians excusing the sin of womynz… it precludes their (teh womynz) repentance.

  4. deti says:

    A big source of the frustration is that a lot of men are seeing, correctly, that sluts aren’t bearing any adverse consequences for their behavior. She gets to spend her late teens and all her 20s sexing the hot alpha studs; then parachutes into a marriage to a niceguy beta. Some of these women then pull the “i’m not haaaaappy” divorce after the kids are born, and shafts him for half his stuff and income.

    She really did get to have her cake and eat it too. T(roll) was right about one thing: Most women are following this model because it seems to be working. There are still men willing to wife up the slut after she is done on the carousel.

    Part of the change will have to be that men simply learn to recognize sluts and refuse to invest in them. This, of course, will mean a lot of men in the next 25 to 50 years will never marry.

  5. They Call Me Tom says:

    “Part of the change will have to be that men simply learn to recognize sluts and refuse to invest in them. This, of course, will mean a lot of men in the next 25 to 50 years will never marry.”

    Better to not marry, than to marry and divorce. Even if, above all, it is best to marry.

  6. Chris says:

    We should hate the meme about sowing your wild oats and then settling down in to a series of monogamous relationships from which you get cash and prizes.
    For this meme damages men. It leaves the bitter and twisted and alone. And it damages women, leaving them … alone and bitter and twisted.
    If, instead, we see each other as imperfect and with patterns of weaknesses (leaders make her wet. High tits and a defined waist make him hard) then we can be gentle with the individual women — and yet still call them on bull shit.
    Because the reflective women know. Just ask em about bullying at high school, particularly all gitls schools.

  7. Höllenhund says:

    The fundamental issue isn’t the hatred of women – that’s marginal and always will be. The fundamental issue is that, by showing their true colors, women are discouraging beta chumps from making the kind of serious investment (in terms of money and time) that women expect of them as their self-evident female right. Every society is based on the assumption that beta chumps will always obediently create the wealth that is needed by women and their children. But now that unspoken beta sense of duty is breaking down, so women and their male servants are more and more nervous and irritated.

  8. Danny says:

    The Beta men are backing away from women, and the Alphas rarely stick around for more than sexual release. deti is correct is saying the sluts never see consequences for their behavior; but rather their behavior is “independence” and “empowerment”.

    You won’t see consequences until some sort of religious fundamentalism keeps it in check. It won’t happen in America, so family formation and birth rates will continue to fall. No real man wants a slut or a Housewife of Alimony County.

  9. ar10308 says:

    Its easy. Turn your anger into Alpha.

    Last night I number-closed a 23yo Celtic 9 because I didn’t give a damn. I danced with her early in the night and made a strong impression, ignored her until later. Danced with her later then chatted her up for 10mins about travel while I had my hands over her legs. Got her number before her and her sister moved to another venue.

    I have no intention of using her number, especially because she doesnt live anywhere near me. But the point is that I could have caught up with her last night and probably gotten a hot makeout session out of it.

    Why? Because I don’t care anymore.

  10. Dalrock says:

    @Deti

    A big source of the frustration is that a lot of men are seeing, correctly, that sluts aren’t bearing any adverse consequences for their behavior. She gets to spend her late teens and all her 20s sexing the hot alpha studs; then parachutes into a marriage to a niceguy beta. Some of these women then pull the “i’m not haaaaappy” divorce after the kids are born, and shafts him for half his stuff and income.

    She really did get to have her cake and eat it too. T(roll) was right about one thing: Most women are following this model because it seems to be working. There are still men willing to wife up the slut after she is done on the carousel.

    Without denying the injustice of the current system, I strongly disagree that sluts don’t bear adverse consequences for their behavior. If you put yourself in the woman’s shoes, the consequences are very much there. This is masked by denial from women and confused by men because for us the consequences women face would be quite mild given how severely bad their choices were.

  11. Vicomte says:

    The only time I’ve ever actually felt bitter and frustrated like this with (some) women is when I am, like you, Dalrock, trying to help them with these things. It doesn’t matter how calmly, accurately, and empathetically I articulate the truth of the situation, because the chorus of women who disagree is so incredibly loud and unreasonable.

    I’ve taken to commenting at TheRulesRevisited on occasion, as I figure a site where young women come to learn about men from a man provides a pretty sympathetic audience. The more I read there the more I become convinced that the old bit about how women don’t actually want to solve their problems, they just want to blather on endlessly about them is actually true.

    Every time:

    Girl: How do men feel about X?
    Me: Men generally feel Y about X. This is because Z. I know this because I am a man and have spent my entire life observing, living among, and talking intimately with men as a man, myself.

    Girls: NONONONONO MEN DONT THINK THAT I BELIEVE THAT NO BECAUSE THE MEN TOLD ME NO AND ANY OTHER MEN ARE NOT REAL (Expanded into several hundred words at minimum.).

    I try to reason, but inevitably I begin to imagine where the term ‘going postal’ comes from.

    I have pinpointed its genesis in a combination of bullshit and repetition.

  12. ar10308 says:

    “I try to reason, but inevitably I begin to imagine where the term ‘going postal’ comes from.”

    When you have an opponent who will not reason, you may have to resort to force. In this case, force is Dread Game.

  13. krauserpua says:

    Lots of men don’t want to confront the fact that, in their current incarnation, they are unworthy of the attentions of attractive women. These men, I think more likely gammas than betas, look at fat entitled unpleasant women and quite rightly think “I don’t want any part of that” but then fail to look at themselves and realise just how unattractive they are to women.

    A man who doesn’t look after his confidence has no business slating women for not looking after their beauty. If he’s incapable of leading, why does he bemoan them for not following?

    Why should a chaste, feminine, physically attractive women commit herself to a man who doesn’t interest her? Just because in the manosphere he feels entitled to one?

  14. greyghost says:

    The only reason what women think matters is that they can vote and have the laws of misandry in place. With a mature understanding of the red pill it is easier to not hate women due to the fact womens nature as seen with red pill eyes is normal. The laws of misandry that women have put in place after sufferage is normal for women to do. The lack of the slightest concern of the effects of misandry on the family,society the country or even the survival of western civilization is normal. The capacity as human beings to even give a damn about anything but how they feel at the time does not even exist with women so anger, bitterness and hatred towards women is misguided in the abstract. The reality of female suffrage says action must be taken and agency applied with the same brutality to woman as is routinely applied to men. (if anger is what is needed so be it much better than the path of an open civil war that we are on now) Showing adult to child empathy towards women is foolish and irresponsible when full adult authority is granted with child like priviledge.

  15. Frank says:

    “Why should a chaste, feminine, physically attractive women commit herself to a man who doesn’t interest her?”

    It might be such a woman cannot find a man who interests her because those same men have decided she doesn’t really exist, and have lived their lives as they pleased and not in a manner that would attract women.

  16. S. Chan says:

    This is a really beautiful post. Thank you Dalrock!

    [D: Thank you.]

  17. Pirran says:

    @Deti
    “A big source of the frustration is that a lot of men are seeing, correctly, that sluts aren’t bearing any adverse consequences for their behavior.”

    Apart from Dalrock’s observations on this, I think a lot has to do with timing. The Manosphere has only been around for a few years and many of the consequences of the SATC yougogrrll behaviour will take time to filter through. As Dalrock has pointed out, marriage rates for women now hitting 30 have collapsed over the last few years (more than the recession would predict). The “Girls” gestalt is significantly bleaker than that of SATC a few years prior. Even the MSM is sensing something in the air.

  18. Dalrock says:

    @ar10308

    I try to reason, but inevitably I begin to imagine where the term ‘going postal’ comes from.

    When you have an opponent who will not reason, you may have to resort to force. In this case, force is Dread Game.

    I think this is pretty close to (if not exactly) what I was driving at. Part of understanding women involves understanding when reason is and isn’t likely to hold sway over them. Your argument should be logical, but you may need to frame it more for the psychology of the woman. Fear can be healthy and motivating, and helping someone fear a consequence they are at risk of experiencing can in this sense be a tremendous gift.

  19. greyghost says:

    Dalrock your reply to ar10308 was pretty good. Logic and reason are your guide to the truth and the truth (red pill) understanding of female nature and sexual psychology will guide your language and approach. Fear and self interest are powerfull and healthy with out the fear of reality very bad desicions are made with more than just the woman suffering the consequences. Wicked selfish behavior can be loving and full of empathy in the right environment. A carousel riding slut can be a dutiful wife with the same self interest empowerment in her heart.

  20. donalgraeme says:

    I find it interesting that the amount of suffering a man has endured out of ignorance of red pill truths doesn’t always correlate to how bitter and resentful the man is when he discovers the red pill. Some men who haven’t suffered much seem to be the most bitter, while others whose lives have been destroyed seem to find a calm acceptance in everything.

  21. A Northern Observer says:

    @donalgrame – I’d surmise that’s because the man who’se been beaten down by the blue pill take the red pill knowledge as “more of the same”, and “I deserve it.”

    The other guys are really pissed at opportunities missed at being lied to, and rightly so.

  22. ar10308 says:

    “Your argument should be logical, but you may need to frame it more for the psychology of the woman.”

    That’s what I was driving at. You need to weaponize to the language of the enemy, if you will. That’s what Negs do. That’s what Dread Game does. They send a powerful subtextual message that cause a great disturbance in the force of the Hamster.

    This clip should illuminate the concept:

  23. anonymous says:

    A big source of the frustration is that a lot of men are seeing, correctly, that sluts aren’t bearing any adverse consequences for their behavior. She gets to spend her late teens and all her 20s sexing the hot alpha studs; then parachutes into a marriage to a niceguy beta>

    The sluts, in this drama, fill the role of the returned prodigal; the betas fill the role of the righteous older brother who is angry that doing the right thing, doesn’t pay off.

  24. One of the more transformative things I’ve read of Mises is that it is never to the benefit of a rational actor to act on either incomplete or wrong information. It took a while for me to process that, but it has sunk in that it is completely true. So with that in mind, any one who finds a truth, whether that truth is about the nature of women or anything else, and then wishes that they had not found that truth, is admitting to being irrational.

    And I believe that this is true of a lot of guys. The reason that they get bitter about the true nature of women is at least in part due to a lack of internal honesty on their own part. In thinking that all women are above sin, men are living in a self constructed fantasy world. And at least in part the bitterness and rage comes from the fact that accepting the true nature of women only partially deconstructs that world. So at least in some cases, the answer to the pain that comes from ceasing to romanticize women is to stop romanticizing the rest of you life.

  25. ray says:

    “This means not seeing “woman” as a faceless collective, but making a serious effort to see individual women for who they are”

    problem with that statement is that women ARE a “faceless collective” — as the evidence of the past 50 years shows undeniably, women DO act both facelessly and collectively in ensuring that their Female Imperative (love that phrase!) is obeyed

    this collective coercing isnt new to human organizations, in fact it is very very old — the facelessness allows individual females (exactly like corporations) to avoid responsibility, esp after inflicting evil upon a male (usually thru male proxies)

    the collectivity allows females (unlike males) to group as a sex, just as they do in mammalian and primate organizations, and to advance female power and interests, while destroying the lives of individual males

    the truth of the female as part of a “faceless collective” is demonstrated via paleolithiic language-groups, who left many “venus/willendorf” artifacts representing the reality of their social order — almost all these figures were faceless, PRECISELY because they did (and do) represent the truth about female power . . . it DOES operate both facelessly, and collectively, and always has

    females do have souls, ie the potential “hardware” of authentic individuality, but they are simultaneously collective, herd creatures, and it’s a tremendous mistake to interact with any female w/o understanding that she usually operates out of her collective, Team Woman, nature (yes yes i know YOUR wife is different lol)

    as Scripture makes clear, there is some variance in individual females, and it is possible (tho v rare) for a female to “shut off” her herd/manipulation nature, and become pleasing to God, tho this is ONLY possible under the strict headship of her husband, father, or other covering male (meaning, exactly opposite to western societies, he must be her superior, instead of the other way around, as satan wishes)

    you say men need to “see women for who they are” but that cannot be done w/o confronting the primacy of their collective natures and actions (that, “coincidentally,” has brought your nations to the brink of annihilation)

  26. tz says:

    “Why should a chaste, feminine, physically attractive women commit herself to a man who doesn’t interest her?” Is she a lesbian? What kind(s) of man is she interested in.

    A few steps of linkage from this post notes the price of delayed motherhood. If she herself is not interested in becoming a Mother, of what use is a man?

    Or just turn it around: Why should a [add adjectives] man commit to a woman who doesn’t interest him? What does the man want from the woman?

    The feminization of Christendom runs deep – I think the Norman Vincent Peale positive thinking, later Robert Schuller – think positive, sin doesn’t matter, God preemptively forgives with the tiniest bit of contrition, penance is medieval, was an earlier root, or merely a different strain of the disease. Before we had altar calls calling sinners to repent. Often. Revivals for the backsliders and lukewarm. Today we are all lukewarm and carnal but happy and content that God won’t judge us because he is just too, too, merciful for that. There is an excess in the other direction but it is rarely seen these days. This “get out of hell free” attitude ends up mainly aimed at women.

    For men, there is something called the custody of the eyes, so you don’t look as that is what will get you started. For a long time, women were kept in protected gardens and greenhouses called homes where they would similarly avoid the occasion of sin, at least great sin (and children tend to undo selfishness – “saved through childbearing” is likely to mean this). Parents don’t have much time for sin. They are often too tired for temptation.

    Before the 1960’s some men behaved badly – there were places they could sin and they wouldn’t be held responsible. In fact, such temptation was used for things like closing a sale. This was not a good thing, but instead of lifting men up from the mud, it was easier to let women wallow in the same sty.

    The airbrushed centerfold is a fantasy, but so is the sweet and loving wife or fiance, at least if original sin and concupiscence has its normal play. In both cases men upon discovering the real woman end up being horrified. But you must deal with reality, and that reality is we are all sinners.

    Women’s sins tend to be different in another way. Men get angry and blow up so Matthew 5 “Raca!” is clear. Women get passive-aggressive, so are just as angry and murderous in their hearts, but it is kept covert. Men can look at another woman with lust. Women think it (I’ve not read 50 shades, but I suspect there is no explicit description of acts, while not quite cut-to-the-fireplace in a scene, and would have the hot-buttons for the female the equivalent of a centerfold for a man). Femporn gets adultery into the heart just as effectively but it will get through a lot of filters. Men can’t play victim but women can – even when they are the cause and the man is the victim.

    The red pill is simply the truth. In The Matrix, the “real world” was ugly and at war. Justice requires us to judge the actions and effects without bias, without regards to whether they are direct or indirect, immediate or cumulative, no matter who is doing them. And we are all to submit to Christ, his truth, his love.

    Love is not emotion or attractiveness. It comes from the party that WILLS INTENTIONALLY AND KNOWINGLY to love. God loves us this way. He doesn’t put a condition on it because it is all him – all him GIVING LOVE – and we are really bent and broken. A marriage is only fulfilled when both spouses will themselves to love (agape) the other regardless of how really “loveable” they are. And none of us are loveable. All we can do is ask for the grace for the will to love first God, then our spouse. Love is given from the will, never deserved nor only given while it is reasonable to do so.

    To close back with my comments at the top, what any woman should be looking for is a man they would be willing to submit to within marriage. Not whom they might desire to in some kind of exchange, not someone they might while he is “alpha”, but one who will be worthy of the grace of the gift of submission in Christ. Most women don’t know or can’t say that is whom they really seek.

    And even if the man was the bigger sinner, the submissive – to Christ, not the sin in the husband, often pushed him toward righteousness. Same with the husband who truly loves his wife.

    The wife that screams “non serviam!” even silently isn’t just saying it to her husband.

  27. Solomon says:

    High quality post, Dalrock.

    respect.

  28. Opus says:

    I was watching one of Ray Dennis Steckler’s films the other day. In it a guy goes round Hollywood murdering young models. I rather liked the voice-over of the murderer, something like, ‘I thought this one would be different, but no [as she prick-teases] she is just like all the rest, I’ll have to kill her too’. The consequence of the white knight pedestalising the female is the serial-murderer punishing them for not living up to his expectation.

    Zizek in The Metastasis of Enjoyment has a lot to say about this. It is what he calls, after Lacan, the objet petite a – the little thing which does not actually exist. That thing which you find so wonderful is an illusion, rather, as he says, when focusing in on a painting eventually you realise that there is nothing there but dots.

    I don’t think it is the Androsphere that has the problem, but the Politicians, Academics, Media and the Judiciary with their post-Xtian, Marxist blank-slatism, determined to blame men for female shortcomings and enacting laws that play to the worst of female weaknesses.

  29. Keoni Galt says:

    For this topic, I must quote The Vigilant Citizen:

    “The effects of rejecting what is fake and embracing what is real is the equivalent of eradicating a cancer that slowly eats away the spirit. But before curing an illness, one must identify it. So, despite the doom and gloom, knowing the ugly truth should not lead to unhappiness. Quite to the contrary, learning what we should avoid also leads to learning what we should embrace.”

    I quote and link the Vigilant Citizen for ulterior motives here at D’s place, though his quote is quite apropos to D’s OP. I do so, because this place is THE forefront of the Christian manosphere. And what is it that is really being done here? Reclaiming the Patriarchal religion of Christ from the subversion of Churchianity.

    One thing Christian’s must come to grips with, is the very real existence of Satan and his worshipers.

    To those who have never done so, please do peruse the Vigilant Citizen’s archives, especially his “Symbolic Pics of the Month” posts.

    To simply write off the accumulation of evidence he presents as “conspiracy theory” is to fall for Satan’s greatest lie: that he doesn’t exist.

    Hollywood has been taken over by real Satanists… the “Illuminati.” Just look at the back of your 1 dollar bill and look at that Pyramid of thirteen steps and the all seeing eye on the capstone. Then look at all the pictures of Hollywood celebrities, fashion and music industry folks all making the sign of the one eye and all the pics and vids of performances beneath the pyramid. Satan runs Hollywood, and they have become more and more brazen in the past decade.

    Go and watch Madonna’s Half-Time show at the 2012 Superbowl – it was quite literally a Black Mass Broadcast of Satan Worship on the Tell-A-Vision’s biggest stage. If you doubt that, than go look at Vigilant Citizen’s analysis and breakdown of the performance. Such a forthright spectacle would never have been broadcast unchallenged and unopposed in 2002, yet here we are.

    Nary a peep about it registered. The fall of Christian morality as the guiding principle of society is nearly complete.

    I hate using the term Illuminati, as so many folks have been conditioned to see that word and immediately ignore or act as if considering it’s mere existence is the same thing as UFO’s, Big Foot and the Loch Ness Monster. Nevertheless, any person that truly looks into the evidence is foolish to deny that they do exist, and they do wield tremendous influence in our mass media driven society.

    The symbolism’s of the Satan Worshipers are everywhere in today’s society, and it is there for you to see if you but open your eyes.

    Feminism IS Satanism. Rebellion against God, writ large.

    But learning to recognize TRUTH is the only real weapon we have in combating it.

    To shrink from the truth in bitterness is cowardice in the face of evil.

  30. Ras Al Ghul says:

    Okra,

    I am placing Dalrock in the place of the father of that parable. And the men that are angry are in the position of the eldest son.

    Or perhaps it would be better to compare it to Jacob (Dalrock) versus Stephen and Levi. Jacob tried to reconcile with the other tribe (women). Stephen and Levi would have none of it. This is where Samson and the other “bitter” (I don’t really care for that word, it is dismissive, I prefer angry) men are. They don’t want reconciliation, don’t believe reconciliation is appropriate right now.

    While I completely disagree with Samson’s take on things, I undestand where he is coming from. Just as I think it is a self serving lie for pick up artists to go around saying they “love” women. This is a category error because we need more words for love than the one we use for everything. The pick up artist “loves” women the way a child loves ice cream, or their favorite toy, or maybe even their favorite movie or book. But it is not Agape.

    Krauser,

    While I agree that men need to reclaim their maculinity, I don’t think it is fair to blame this anger on them being “unworthy.”

    They have been lied to about everything. On every level, by the people that they are supposed to be able to trust: Their parents, their preachers, their friends and relatives, their entire society has lied to them and used them. Women as a group have lied to them and used them.

    And they wake up one day. Take the red pill if you prefer. Or put on the “They Live” glass as Dave in Hawaii would say. And they are angry.

    This is where I disagree with Dalrock on helping women. I don’t think he should do it, not because I’m angry with women, but because I think he is actually keeping the evil of this current culture/society/system going.

    Let me explain.

    If Dalrock helps some women, if some men are actually able to be happily married, society will point to them as the faery tale ending that every man and women supposedly can get and the meat grinder keeps chewing up the majority of men.

    There is no marriage in western culture, there is a thing called marriage, but it does not resemble the truth thing. There will be no return to true marriage, until the lie that is in its place is slain. You cannot restore something, while keeping the lies going as well. It does not work that way.

    If people like Krauser keep on going through women (keep up the Lords work, I mean that) and the betas get angrier and angrier and either join the krausers or bail out on the system, then this culture collapses and a new order based on truth (or less lies for it cannot be built on more lies) and a healthier society grows out of the ashes.

    Make no mistake though, all Dalrock is doing is prolonging the decline.

  31. Vicomte says:

    Dal et al:

    How is any sort of fear or dread to be effective when there is complete refusal to acknowledge the truth of the situation that would warrant it?

  32. A Northern Observer says:

    Ras Al Ghul says:
    March 23, 2013 at 5:51 pm
    Make no mistake though, all Dalrock is doing is prolonging the decline.

    According to commenters in the “Christians man up” thread, that means Dalrock is aiding and abetting the enemy, and he should stop posting.

    Do I think that’ll happen?

    Nah. :)

  33. greyghost says:

    Ras Al Ghul
    I agree with you 100%. What I don’t see is Dalrock as prolonging the decline. I tease him about it all of the time about being a cultural leader. We need to know how to live after a collapse. As a warrior you need to think of the princples of SunTzu. Leave the enemy an escape route he will (she will) run away sparing a costly seige. Victory is defined when bad and uncivil behavior is allowed consequence and is openly said to be bad behavior. I would love to sit down with you and other like minded men and go over ways to destroy western civilization with feminism. The more suffering all the better. All for a purpose of a civil soceity based on rule of law. And not based on the feminine imperative.

  34. Dystopia Max says:

    Recall also that the father’s admonition to the older brother, in addition to his plea for forgiveness, was “My son, everything I have is yours.”

    Were the beta men who were pushed into the working man’s life truly granted the inheritance of their fathers in return for services rendered? Or did their fathers use their positions of authority to collectively amplify the demands of their daughters?

    The prodigal son is not the right parable, simply because it’s about a son, not a daughter. (“Human” is not a biblical word, and should be used far less often than we are accustomed to!) The right parables for wayward women are in Ezekiel 26.

    But the true tragedy is that no fathers are publicly standing up for their sons against their daughters, nor are they making sure that loyalty to family is rewarded irrespective of success with women, whose values are . Having assisted in the destruction of one of the stabilizing pillars of their culture, is there any wonder that men are not less bitter, but more, when they find out they have been deceived by the world they chose to believe in?

    What punishment should fall on the men who collectively promised Rachel in return for the best working years of a man’s life, but gave men either Leah or nobody instead? What sort of society did they expect?

  35. ukfred says:

    The parable of the Prodigal son is all very well for the situation of the carousel rider who decides to settle down and marry in her thirties, but the parable stops with the son returning home to a party thrown by his father. It says nothing of the time after he comes home. It says nothing about his comparing boring life at home with no inheritance to his time living it up in debauchery and sin during his prodigal period. He does come home with genuine repentance, but how can any man tell whether his former carousel-riding wife is genuinely repentant for her time of debauchery? How can he be sure that she is not damaged psychologically after sowing her wild oats like the prisoners who returned to the US after being held by the Vietcong?

    The situation is such that I believe that a young man needs to either marry early (but only once, not often) to a young woman who has not spent time on the carousel, or not marry at all because the risks are too great. Probably improve his chances too if he marries a girl from the same small town he was brought up in, because the chances are he will know her history. city life is all too anonymous, with all the benefits and dangers that brings.

  36. The Bitter Taste of the Red Pill
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/04/10/the-bitter-taste-of-the-red-pill/

    The truth will set you free, but it doesn’t make truth hurt any less, nor does it make truth any prettier, and it certainly doesn’t absolve you of the responsibilities that truth requires. One of the biggest obstacles guys face in unplugging is accepting the hard truths that Game forces upon them. Among these is bearing the burden of realizing what you’ve been conditioned to believe for so long were comfortable ideals and loving expectations are really liabilities. Call them lies if you want, but there’s a certain hopeless nihilism that accompanies categorizing what really amounts to a system that you are now cut away from. It is not that you’re hopeless, it’s that you lack the insight at this point to see that you can create hope in a new system – one in which you have more direct control over.

    There are no “Dark Arts”, this is simply one last desperate effort of the feminine imperative to drag you back into the Matrix. There is only Game and the degree to which you accept it and are comfortable in using it in the context that YOU define. If that context is under the auspices of a mutually beneficial, mutually loving, mutually respecting LTR monogamy of YOUR choosing, know that it’s the fundaments of Game that are at the root of its success or failure. If that context is in terms of spinning multiple plates, liberating the affections of women from other men, and enjoying a love life based on your personal satisfactions, also understand that it lives and dies based on your understanding the fundaments of Game.

  37. Bob says:

    My father gave me a good tip of advice years ago which is that while we must forgive, that does not always mean we forget. While some people truely change and turn from their ways, the vast majority mearly go through the motions. This has become clear at my church over the last several years. We are located about 20 miles from a decent sized city. There are several colleges near by and our church tends to get the most of the churcian women, the feel good woman who will sing in the choir one day and will be on their knees the next (and not in the good way). Anyway the service and preaching style changed as we started to attract more younger people (only college aged women, not men) and we now unfortuanally i fear are heading down hill morally. I looked out in the audience last sunday and saw that a mere 20% of the audience was male. It was hard to grasp, but i soon realized that while we had been growing, we were not propertly meeting the needs of the actual members and especially men and boys of all ages. For every several woman we get, i would say that about one man leaves (shocker). The more women vote and share their voice the farther morally we slid and the less real followers we have.

    As to the hating women arter learning their faults, i would say that that is why you need to be exeremely cautious when you marry. make a list of non negotiables and one i highly recomend is to only marry a VIRGIN. Its important to realize that while christians are called to forgive, we also must only marry people of actual character an virtues and while virginity is not always the best indicator, it sure is farily acurate for the majority of marriages i have obsirved. Also while trust is extremely i portant in a marriage, so is biblical headship, and so if she is not willing to take her biblical role and trust her husband, than run far away. Also be wise with your finances, dont keep it all in your name so in the event something goes down, (divorce or even just general law suits) you are protected. I cant tell you how much money i have save by keeping it out of my name and away from butterfingers.

    Closing point, be cautious, very cautious

  38. Dystopia Max says:

    “How can he be sure that she is not damaged psychologically after sowing her wild oats like the prisoners who returned to the US after being held by the Vietcong?”

    Leave John McCain out of this.

    Seriously, send his traitorous ass back to Hanoi. Some people go through torture and hardship and come out more empathetic, other people go through it and come out worshiping their torturers and wishing to be as powerful as them.

  39. Tam the Bam says:

    ar10308: “… ‘cos when love is gone, there’s always justice. And when justice is gone, there’s always force. And when force is gone, …” (Laurie Anderson, mangling the Tao)

    Dunno about hating, maybe I’m too much of a Vulcan to do it right. In the ‘sphere I find a lot of so-far useful explanations (which I am in the process of testing) to decades of “W-T-everlovin’-F? This is … illogical, Jim !?11??!1″ moments, in my dealings with the distally-cleft variant of the species.
    Make me Larff-Out-Loud sometimes. “why didn’t I get this years ago? It’s so simple! Press Button A, get change. Fit Tab B into slot C, experience noises X, Y and Z. Turn knob P, trigger attraction L. On and on and on. Like they’re robots or something. Just weird. And a bit mindblowing in its implications.
    I’m still not entirely convinced they’re not aware of what they do, and they’re all having me on, like it’s a faked mind-fuck and Jeremy Beadle’s going to jump out at any minute (still dead tho’).

  40. ar10308 says:

    “Its important to realize that while christians are called to forgive, we also must only marry people of actual character an virtues and while virginity is not always the best indicator, it sure is farily acurate for the majority of marriages i have observed.”

    2 Corinthians 3:14
    “Do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers. For what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness? Or what fellowship has light with darkness?”

    That advice should be taken very seriously. Paul insists on it.

  41. Tam the Bam says:

    ” .. make a list of non negotiables and one i highly recomend is to only marry a VIRGIN “
    Fair enough Bob, but how could an ordinary (non-gynaecologically-trained, non-playa) bloke actually tell? Like her Wite Nite, desperate to unload Papa is really going to issue a guarantee? And what is a woman’s word actually worth?

  42. Pip says:

    Some of you guys remind me of the liberal arts prof I had back in Maryland who, on the first day of class, demanded that all “potential rapists” raise their hand. This wild-eyed harridan then berated the bewildered young men in the class (sociology) that all men were potential barbarians and rapists. You could tell under the silliness and accusations that she was desperately isolated and unhappy and had turned the fixation of past injuries and shame, hurt self-righteousness and brittle loneliness against all men, taking the worst examples to tar and feather the whole lot. Even at the age of nineteen, it was an epiphany to me to meet someone who chose to wallow in ressentiment instead of living. No promising lights shine down that road. Good luck.

  43. Tam the Bam says:

    Hands up everybody who mentioned J McCain .. [ctrl+F] .. oh right, I thought so ..

  44. dannyfrom504 says:

    bitterness, regardless of gender, is slow poison.

  45. lzozozolzozozoz says:

    zlzoozlzzloozozz

    hello dlalrockk!!!! good nes da gbfm bringz todayz!!!!

    i have found a brand new startup site dat makes yahoo relationship advice look like a conservative church sermonz!!!

    http://wotwentwrong.com/

    der is bountiful funny lzozozozoz to be had at watching amsterz wwork oevrtimez zlzozoozoz:

    http://wotwentwrong.com/blog_posts/301-a-complicated-love-affair

    “Him and I met almost a year ago, and I fell head over heels. Things between us went fast, probably too fast. That was part of the problem, I know. Anyways, I met his family. He met mine…Including my daughter. He was the one I was looking for (so I thought).We had this passion and connection that I could not explain. I have never been so attracted by anyone in my life. He always knew how to make me laugh and smile. We just always had a good time together, and I fell inlove with his family too. He was so good with my little girl and was never turned off that I am a mom.”

    loxoozzozoozozo

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/10/15/app-lets-strangers-weigh-_n_1966227.html

    huffington explains:

    “Melnik said the app was created to help relieve the uncertainty and anxiety that relationships can produce by providing advice on how to proceed in situations that may cause confusion.

    “It’s also about self-improvement,” said Melnik, adding that while many people focus on improving their professional habits, they often ignore their personal relationships.

    “People are going on all these online dates, meeting people and dating them, and they’re failing for various reasons,” she explained. “They’re not aware about what they might be doing wrong, and gaining any new skills in how to be better in dating.””

    zlozoozzoozozozozozozozlzlzlzozlzozloz

    happy hunting groundz for the world’s fastest hamstersz dalrockz!!!!!!!

    zlzozoozozozozozozoz

  46. greyghost says:

    Dannyfrom504
    I checked out your blog. You have a real cool regular man way about you. I work in a shop with older mechanics at 47 I’m one of the younger ones by only a few years,and you seem to have the same way about you.

  47. zlzozoozoz

    hey dalrockzz!!!

    i found the site with the fastest hamsterz in the worldz that make yahoo relationship advice look like da slothful hamstettrtesees slow boatz lzozozzo

    http://wotwentwrong.com/blog_posts/285-shy-quiet-type-if-so-gentlemen-try-online-dating

    “Time and again it has been observed how shy guys are overwhelmed and melted when the opportunities to meet women in an up, close and personal one-on-one date. Love letters, sending of gifts, flowers and chocolates are traditional methods of communicating a man’s affection or interest to a woman especially for the introverts. These days, technology has overtaken many human activities, practices, traditions and culture. Many are still of the idea that the Internet technology is too fast for these shy men. There are, however, many ways things single shy men can do to make online dating work for them.

    zlzozoozozozozozoz

    Shy types must find women who appreciate their introvert personality as well as the tendency to go slow. Women who want serious relationships can read this as a good signal of honest intents and serious plans, thus, respond positively.
    OMG ZLOZOZOZOZOZOZOZOzozlzolzozoolzloozooz

    zlzoozzolzlzozozozoozo

  48. Dalrock says:

    @Vicomte

    How is any sort of fear or dread to be effective when there is complete refusal to acknowledge the truth of the situation that would warrant it?

    The fear is still there, it has just been pushed down. There are fears which are arguably unique to women which feminists still writhe over (spinsterhood, slut shaming, etc.). Feminists mistake these fears for having been imposed on women by culture, but they are actually natural fears which when in healthy balance serve women very well. Game teaches how to push the buttons in the female psyche, and this can be used for things other than seduction. All feminists have really accomplished is tricking men (and other women) into not pushing these buttons. But the buttons are still there, and if you push them right it can have very powerful effects.

    One example would be pointing out the reality of post divorce dating for women, especially mothers. Aspiring divorcées have a natural fear that what they are about to do is an act of epic stupidity. They want the empowerment sold in EPL, etc, but fear the ridicule and/or pity of being the laughingstock who tossed away a perfectly good husband. When trying to help a woman in this situation remind them of what they already know (“Where have all the good men gone?”, “What is wrong with men? Why won’t they commit?”). At the same time, show them what a laughingstock the “empowered divorcées” they are hoping to follow have actually become (EPL, Stella, Lorraine Berry). Then frame the choice as her being the divorced woman married women feel sorry for and offer advice to, or being the (married) sympathetic friend feeling sorry for the woman who made a stupid choice. Women despise being the one on the receiving end of advice and pity from another woman, and love the idea of being the respected one dispensing the advice and offering consolation. If you need extra firepower, help them imagine what it will be like when their husband marries a younger prettier woman and her kids consider this new woman their new mommy. They may well get furious with you and deny it all in a fit of rage, but the impact will be there. This doesn’t guarantee that they will still make a good choice, but the power of this framing would be difficult to overstate.

    Another example of this is the way I framed my advice to women hoping to avoid the post carousel traffic jam in this post. I provoked their natural competition with other women for the best mates. Right now women are fiercely competing for casual sex with the best men. The best way to approach that is to channel it towards fiercely competing for commitment from the best men. That the “best men” for casual sex tend not to be the same “best men” for marriage doesn’t matter here, because the new competition will take care of that. It also doesn’t change my advice to men to avoid marriage to women who rode the carousel only to have a change of heart and seek out a beta provider.

  49. Sherlock says:

    Really, really great post. And quite beautiful in fact.

    “Part of what you should have learned is how women are likely to react to your message, so you can tune it for maximum likely effectiveness. ”

    I would like to see more posts about this.

    THe posts I made int eh backlash thread I think is good for counteraction anger towards women.

    Reading David Deida is also good for seeing women realistically AND loving them.

  50. Johnycomelately says:

    The happy clappy magnanimity is a bit sickly sweet.

    God help us if Krauser is the paragon of masculine virtue (though I enjoy his site).

    Womens behaviour is shit, because it can be and no amount of red pilling can avert the facts.
    Exogenous factors are at play and women are taking full advantage (as men would if the shoe was on the other foot).

    Simply put for gen x men (born 60s to 80s) there are more men than women (forward age cohort adjusted) and growing income disparity (12% earn over 75k) and wealth transfers means that women are milking it for all it’s worth.

    Playing Pollyanna might keep you on an even keel but it doesn’t change the reality.

  51. dllzozozlozozzlzozo

    it hath been said dat the truth sets us free
    and so we are set free by dalrock’s poetry
    it hath also been said they shoot the messenger
    and so some grow bitter againstz dalrock

    but as a boy grows into a man
    he must beocme able
    to not be bitter at a man
    for the Truth he speakz
    but to man up and value the Truth
    like a man
    and thank the Man for
    speaking it.

    this is the art
    we have lost
    men speakng trtuh
    plain simple logical truth
    tempred with wit humility wisdom honor

    it is a man’z greatest power
    and his fatherz truthz set down
    in teh RGETA BOOKS FOR MENZ
    is his greatest treasure
    but da berbenkekgfierz decontrcucted teh GREATSZ
    and teach to kill the soul for the sake of
    pleasure

    zlzoozooozzozozozoozoz

    keep on spepaking da truth like amaan man doallorllzlzlzlzozlzoz fdalocockrzzkzk dalrockz zlzozozoz

  52. Anonymous Reader says:

    One of the more transformative things I’ve read of Mises is that it is never to the benefit of a rational actor to act on either incomplete or wrong information. It took a while for me to process that, but it has sunk in that it is completely true.

    Well, that is interesting, and I have never read it before. It suggests to me that von Mises never bought or sold stocks, just for a start. While I agree that a rational actor should avoid acting on wrong information, and should act on information that is as complete as it can be, this concept can easily lead to “analysis paralysis”. That is, the situation where the rational actor is aware that information is incomplete, and so must obtain more and more information, ad infinitum. We all make decisions on incomplete information all the time, although some of us attempt to reduce the uncertainty as much as possible. If I’m driving 450 miles in a day, then I want to know the car is roadworthy as much as possible – but I can still drive over a nail and wind up with a flat. I can check the weather and road conditions – but I can still wind up coming over a hill and seeing a huge traffic backup due to an accident (and if I have good information about alternate routes, maybe I can do something). So I want as much information as I can get, but accept that it is imperfect and I may have to adapt my plan to the situation. Or I have Plan A but also Plan B…maybe Plan C…

    The same is true of Game. A man does not have to know all of the branches of every possible decision tree to be able to apply it. He can assess his own situation, and his own strengths, and try negging, or cocky-funny, and evaluate the results. He can operate from incomplete information, yet see results.

    So I can’t totally agree with von Mises – sometimes, complete information is just not possible to obtain, yet a rational actor must still act. That doesn’t mean the rational actor should put up with wrong or false information. And the rational actor should have no patience with those who feed false information as ‘true’…

  53. Mark Minter says:

    I am struggling with this very concept today.

    I got blasted in a comment on RationalMale. If I interpret what he was saying was that ( and I am paraphrasing quite a lot) “To go for the big damning comment of women consistently was perhaps selfish on my part, perhaps my own form of Attention Whoring. And it added nothing to the solution. So was my loyalty towards me or towards the greater benefit of all men.”

    So let me answer this in this way, and it has some pertinence to what Dalrock says in this post.

    “If love were so fair as to bring his sailors into the quiet port after they had been soaked by many tempests, then I would bind myself to serve him forever. But because he is in the habit of carrying an unjust weight in his hand, I do not have full confidence in him any more than I do in a judge whom men suspect. So for the present I refuse to submit to his judgment because ‘he often leaves his sailors in the mighty waves'”
    Treatise on Love
    Andreas Capellanus, 1176 AD

    I sit in a unique position among you all. Due to my age, I genuinely feel my battles with love and women are behind me and I shall no longer be tortured by it or them. Many is the day that I feel a sense of contentment that I am no longer subjected to cupid’s arrow. And many days, the feeling escalates into giddiness. Right now, for example.

    The question I can never answer is whether this contentment would be possible had I not gone through what I had gone through, to reach the point to where I was so sick and disgusted with women, that to be rid of them was a sufficient luxury to provide contentment and satisfaction that is supremely more enjoyable then any other. Or, and this is an important point, can this level of contentment can be gained through knowledge, from the advice and experience of other men.

    Perhaps it is because I am looking, and I have the eye that I have, but every day women give me one more thing to hate them for, one more reason to despise them, to disrespect them, and to continue to find great satisfaction and relief that my time of struggle with them has ended. My thing two days ago was the “Dongle” thing. Yesterday it was Amanda Bynes tweet that she wants Drake “To murder her vagina”. Today it is an article about VIP rooms in clubs and the seedy side of “promoters”, “Bottle girls”, and the behavior of women. I continue to learn more and more about Evolutionary Psychology. I continue to watch the press and see the tactics and behaviors of women. I read Jezebel almost daily and I read the comments and I am sure those comments express the real truth about what women think, feel, and want.

    I am 6’3″, I have blond hair and blue eyes. When I was 27, I was beautiful in face and body to the point many people assumed I was gay. The comment I heard constantly was “You look like David Bowie.” I have a 140 IQ. And I typically earned more than most men. And I still had to eat shit from women, and I often wondered what hell it must be for other men, given as bad as it was for me.

    When I measure, and then give weight, to those good moments with women, those highly supreme moments of love, even when I import the time when I was married and was a better man than I was before and after, and then subtract the cost, the pain, the indignity, the loss, and possibly some unknown opportunity costs and opportunity losses for which I could only imagine, I have to agree with Andreas Capallunus.

    So I give a “thumbs down” on both love and women. And I remain at war.

  54. dannyfrom504 says:

    GG-
    thanks man.

    totally agree with the commenter about Dieda. GREAT book. should be required reading for all men once they turn 18-20. understanding game and how women really operate and how easy they are to figure out is other-worldly.

    i now have ZERO tolerance for BS.

  55. A says:

    > Exogenous factors are at play and women are taking full advantage (as men would if the shoe was on the other foot).

    Really? Was this the case when the shoe was on the other foot (say, in 1870)?

  56. Luke says:

    Dalrock, what is your username on Yahoo! Answers?

    [D: Dalrock]

  57. I find it interesting that the amount of suffering a man has endured out of ignorance of red pill truths doesn’t always correlate to how bitter and resentful the man is when he discovers the red pill. Some men who haven’t suffered much seem to be the most bitter, while others whose lives have been destroyed seem to find a calm acceptance in everything.

    This is an interesting point, and I’ll wager a guess at why. To a man who has already been beat down, there is a potential that the red pill may provide some closure in answering “Why did this happen to me?” and also that, well, the worst (or much of the worst) has already happened to them – there’s little left to fear. On the other hand, for a young man who HASN’T had that experience, he now suddenly feels a sense of peril that didn’t exist before, and a need to guard himself that wasn’t there before. What’s more, the first man (already crushed in blue pill) has already had any illusions pretty effectively dashed, so, again, he has little left to lose. A man who hasn’t suffered through the ringer still has dreams to be ruined.

    Obviously neither holds true in all cases, but it may explain some.

    I think the problem is more fundamental then you’re describing. What you are asking is men that have been betrayed by church, culture, their govrnment, society and by other men, with women taking (however they are unhappy about it) the benefits of this betrayal and betraying them either actively or passively accepting it as well and then telling them to help these women.

    I don’t think he’s asking you to blindly help all women, though. What I’ve seen from Dalrock (not that I’ve stalked, so I could be wrong) is that he offers advice where he thinks it may actually do some good, to women who are in need of (and may listen to) answers, and he tailors the manner of his answer to cut through the BS, whether that needs heavy sarcasm, or dread, or gentleness, so on.

    We should hate the meme about sowing your wild oats and then settling down in to a series of monogamous relationships from which you get cash and prizes…. then we can be gentle with the individual women — and yet still call them on bull shit.

    I think this nails it. We must remember that we have ALL been lied to, and while affords women with many short term empowerment benefits and long term material benefits, and while it does NOT excuse their behavior, it does go a long way to EXPLAIN that behavior, when coupled with understanding about her basic psychology. Understanding allows for a better sense of compassion. At the same time, compassion does not mean you never rebuke her, nor that you must protect her from the consequences of her behavior. And, in fact, Dalrock has argued many times that a failure to rebuke her is, in itself, an unloving act. It is COMPASSIONATE to tell her that her bad, sinful behavior is destructive – to call her on her bull shit.

  58. Opus says:

    I am intrigued by the remark attributed to von Mises. Whether he is correct or not, people often act on incomplete information and quite successfully. Suppose for example you and I agree to meet in London (which you may recall is very large) but fail to mention either the particular part thereof or the time of the day. What should we do to ensure a successful meeting? I asked a friend of mine where he would go and at what time, if he wanted to meet me there. His suggestion was Trafalgar Square at midday. My own favoured option had been Charing Cross (next door to Trafalgar) but also at midday.

  59. Remo says:

    Part of Sampsons problem is living in a culture that does two things. First it completely gelds males making them more beta in every respect. Men are told the reason for this in no uncertain terms is that male power is dangerous, bad for society, and left uncontrolled would wreck civilization. This is true but the CURE they offer is to ELIMINATE IT COMPLETELY which is worse however you don’t hear that. The other side of the coin has women being told that every single whim they experience is their GOD given right to pursue and that anyone who says otherwise is a misogynist and evil. Now total female freedom with men paying for most if not all repercussions is just as destructive but because it isn’t directly overt (i.e. you won’t see building falling over and bullet holes) feminism inc. claims it is harmless.

    What men like Sampson and myself and many others have found out is that we were lied too, constantly. M3 details this: http://whoism3.wordpress.com/2012/11/17/confessions-of-a-reformed-incel/ and he is right. The problem is the damage is done. The lies have born very bitter fruit. In the past you could at least indulge in the illusion of female goodness. It was possible. You met a girl and she’d be a virgin. You’d get married and even if she wasn’t perfect you could be fairly certain she wouldn’t cheat on you or if she did the consequences could be devastating…. for her. What you thought of as your good wife was a comfortable illusion but that illusion at least gave you the strength to get up in the morning and work for both your futures. True she may lust after the neighborhood biker gang but she had the good sense to keep her mouth shut and not invite them over for an orgy after having your forcibly removed on a false D.V. complaint.

    Not so now. Now grrrl power guidance gurus tell girls they need to lose their virginity by 14 and are told they are stupid, ugly, and un-empowered if they don’t. By the time they are out of college they are harder than hookers and have done things that would make women from Sodom blush. These girls are badly damaged in a way that does not heal and they cannot make good companions. Both men and women are then spoon fed yet more lies telling the girls that they are wonderful (they are not) and the men that they are bad for questioning the wonderfulness of these massively defective creatures.

    It is quite one thing to have empathy for someone who has trashed their ability to be a good mate. It is quite another to be forced to celibacy and loneliness BECAUSE the entire pool of eligible women has polluted themselves beyond any hope of salvation. Worse, the general female response to this is to actively deny it as confronting their broken state is very painful and not at all politically correct. Besides – all the OTHER girls did the same thing so how bad can I be? What the hell is wrong with all those bitter awful men?

    Sampson is angry that not only is his illusion shattered forever but the quality of women that this highly defective society has produced is ill suited them to be mates. This was not always the case and was and is not inevitable. All that would need to happen would be for society, once again, to enact strict controls on female sexuality as has been the case for most of history. Stop labeling this as oppression and start realizing that it is as needed as controls on violent acting out from men are needed.

  60. Johnycomelately says:

    A

    Men did take advantage during the 60s and 70s (the free sex generation) when there were more marriageable women than men (female marriage squeeze) after the baby boom.

  61. A says:

    Johnycomelately,

    Well, how did men take advantage then (other than by marrying women of higher SMV than they would’ve ordinarily gotten)? I’m genuinely curious since I wasn’t alive back in the 60s and 70s, nor have I ever heard of the female marriage squeeze (and Google only gives a single relevant hit). I’m finding it difficult to imagine ways men-of-the-60s could have acted in similarly shitty ways like women-of-the-10s.

  62. I want justice against women, for their crimes, for their lies, for their evil nature. Bitterness has nothing to do with it. Whereas bitterness is malicious, the desire for justice is hopeful and optimistic. I do believe that, within fifty years’ time, it will be possible for men to reproduce without women, and look forward to the day when we will have the means to cast them down and deliver our justice upon them without jeopardizing the future of humanity in the slightest.

  63. A Northern Observer says:

    @ shrineofvirtue says: March 24, 2013 at 7:51 am
    I do believe that, within fifty years’ time, it will be possible for men to reproduce without women,

    and so women will be able to reproduce w/out men – leaving the fruit of such reproduction bereft of a mother or a father.

    Remember the kids who have no say in this matter – they need both their parents!

  64. Remo says:

    The system as it stands will die but the death will be slow sadly

  65. Solomon says:

    If you guys want to be mad about it, might want to direct a little towards our own fathers and grandfathers, whose shit-test failures have allowed the lies to take hold, both in silence and outright complicity.

    We were denied our inheritance as men: the wisdom and understanding of our forefathers.

  66. Luke says:

    Not possible to make up:
    http://cnsnews.com/news/article/feds-spend-15-million-study-why-lesbians-are-fat

    “The National Institutes of Health (NIH) has awarded $1.5 million to study biological and social factors for why “three-quarters” of lesbians are obese”

  67. Opus says:

    Some bitterness on here this morning – Sunday is a day of rest and a day for better thoughts which is why, to refresh youselves spiritually, you go to Church.

    For myself I am largely indifferent but I draw the line at female aggrandisement (consider the recent Donglegate) and the males who facilitate it.

    Not all women are bad: I was in the laundrette a fortnight ago and short of a 50p coin (ten shillings). There was a middle-aged lady in there and I explained my difficulty and asked if she could assist, by which I meant, did she have such a coin in her purse. Yes she could assist, and would go home, and get me such a coin. I tried vainly to restrain her form such kindness, yet she persisted… and duly returned some time later with not one but two 50p coins.

  68. Miserman says:

    If you nurtured a fantasy that women are innately good then seeing their sins for the first time is bound to be jarring. This is especially true given that the widespread pass given to women has encouraged an immense amount of bad behavior.

    Given how destructive putting women on pedestals and ignoring the reality of their fallen nature has been for men, I wonder if the same can be said for women putting men on pedestals. For sure, women who are suddenly slapped with the truth of their man being imperfect are cannon fodder for the feminism machine seeking to turn their anger into the political and culture destruction of men. This makes feminism much more sinister, in my view, and intensifies the need for women to have pointed out to them they are not innocent, not perfect, and not immune to manipulation and deception by other females.

  69. Whatever says:

    You are, I believe a team leader, project leader in real life?

    Thus, you have a fairly high level of status, top 20%, and have A LOT of practice leading people. Perhaps your wife would be a total wacko just like all the others without these advantages, perhaps she is also a “good hire” and a higher quality of woman no matter what.

    The average man, or even the far above average, may not have first, and most do not have the second. Their wife may also have already shown she is a wacko.

    All her insanity and suffering she inflicted he excuse with her glorious glory, but now he realizes that she is just bad. But what are his tools to fix this? The government and Team Woman have done everything in their power to make sure he has no tools. So unlike you, he is left being subordinate to people he now knows are crazy and bad.

    This does not make him happy.

  70. Ton says:

    Many men go long periods of time experiencing only the worst from woman, which gives the men no reason not to be bitter and angry. Other then how hard anger/ bitterness is on the individual man

    Everyday we act on incomplete information. Age and wisdom and prudence is supposed to guide us through

  71. Novaseeker says:

    There are couple of things going on, I think.

    One is the normal process of anger upon learning that women are not all that, and are not all that in a way that may be jarring as compared with the fantasy one had been taught about how women are. That’s pretty normal. The key, however, is that it should only be the first step of the process. The rest of the process, once the initial anger/irritation/disappointment passes is to accept the truth for what it is, and adjust your life accordingly, depending on what you want to do with your life, and how to achieve that in light of what you now understand about reality. Many guys do that, and quite a few do not. Quite a few get stuck in the angry stage which, over the course of time, coagulates into bitterness.

    That leads to the second thing. Bitterness — which is anger that has been allowed to fester into a long-term generalized grievance — adversely impacts your own quality of life. And it does that regardless of whether your underlying anger is justified or not. It doesn’t matter, because it’s the coagulated anger that hardens into a generalized sense of grievance that generally impedes one’s ability to live life — whether you want that life to be one with women in it or not. Being bitter about reality being what it is is of course also irrational, but more importantly it is self-defeating in life in general because it impacts one’s overall disposition in a way that can, and typically does, lead to less good outcomes in virtually all areas of life, even those which are wide afield from anything involving relationships with women. SO men are best advised to avoid becoming bitter upon learning the red pill, but rather, process through the anger, and then actually decide, soberly, deliberately and slowly, what you really want out of life, and what you need to do to get it in light of what you now know about reality when it comes to the female part of the human race. And act accordingly, without bitterness.

    I agree with Rollo that for some guys a part of the problem is that they don’t want to change themselves in light of what they now know is required to have a successful relationship with women, but they still want women in their lives, so they get angry about that disconnect, and then over time bitter about it. That’s a pathological way to proceed. The right way to proceed when you really understand how women tick is to decide what your goals in life are, and if they involve having a woman around (and for most younger guys their goals in life do — it will be different for older divorced guys, in many cases, obviously), then accept that you need to make changes to yourself to achieve that goal. Or you need to drop the goal. But either way, you can’t get bitter about what you need to do to achieve the goal, now that you know what you need to do. If you do, you’re just actively sabotaging yourself.

    Finally as for the overall point about empathy, for me the understanding of why women behave the way they do has also allowed me to spot misbehavior more easily. I don’t empathize with the sins they are committing, but I do empathize with people being tempted to sin. Men and women are tempted to sin in rather different ways, and understanding how women specifically are tempted to sin has lead to a greater empathy for those temptations in themselves (not for the sins). Does it rankle? Sure, it does. But seeing people on the verge of sin and then openly embracing sin is going to rankle. Now, it’s true that these sins are tolerated and not called out by society, church, culture, family — the whole lot. And there is righteous anger about that. But the problem is that, again, if you let that anger, however righteous it may be, coagulate into bitterness, the only person really harmed by that is yourself. You individually cannot change the church, the culture, the society, the media, the world, your extended family and so on. About the only thing you CAN change is *you*, and if you want women in your life, you need to change *you* so that this can happen in a way that you want it to happen. Being bitter will prevent that, and may prevent *you* from reaching your life goals. So don’t get bitter.

  72. Anon66 says:

    “she is much more likely to be craving decisive leadership from you than fawning footrubs”

    This is no doubt true. The problem is that women are emotional creatures and while she will respond positively the vast majority of the time to your leadership there will be those times when she will be hostile to it. At one of those times she only needs to pick up the phone and call the State to come and punish you (no actual physical force need to have been used by the man).

    Simply put it can be dangerous for a man to try to exert his leadership and many an innocent man is criminalized for doing so even when it is in the best interest of the woman. Men need to be taught this is the reality that women have created and it may not be in their individual best interest to try and help women. Better to use women for sex and otherwise avoid them. Sad but true.

  73. earl says:

    If there is an anger…it’s the anger of being lied to. But the truth in the long run soothes the anger.

    My anger of women stemmed from not having a clue about their nature. Now that I know it…I’m not as angry. That doesn’t mean there are things about them I don’t like…but I don’t let that take me down.

    I accept women for what they are….just as much that I accept that who I am to other people is what I can do for them. That’s life.

  74. Sigyn says:

    @ tz:

    I’ve not read 50 shades, but I suspect there is no explicit description of acts, while not quite cut-to-the-fireplace in a scene, and would have the hot-buttons for the female the equivalent of a centerfold for a man.

    Delurking (if it’s okay, Dalrock) to let you know that your suspicions are wrong. That horrible book has not only graphic, blow-by-blow descriptions of the acts (which, according to experienced BDSM people, are also horrifyingly inaccurate to the point of abuse), but also hamsterizing modeled as right behavior, and the girl gets the rich-handsome-aloof guy with the power of being special in some way that’s never made clear.

    In other words, it’s the most complete women’s porn out there, and it’s as bad or worse than any porn created for men. This stuff is toxic to the max.

    (And if that ain’t enough, it’s a reworked Twilight fanfiction. I kid you not.)

    [D: Welcome.]

  75. DaveD says:

    I am one of those guys who is bitter. I can’t quite put my finger on why. I’ve learned that having a partner or even a true supporter is not possible today, if it ever was. I’ve tried to simply be “assertive”, “confident” etc and treat her with respect like a good leader should. It doesn’t last. They don’t WANT to be treated well. The women around me seem to thrive on being used as a convenient, wet hole. Why should I even pretend to respect that? You want to act like a whore? Fine. I’ll treat you like one. Zero investment for me.

    Why not be bitter when I wanted a good helper (to bring in Genesis) and all the women I meet just want to be abused? There is NO upside to finding out, in practice if not in theory, there is no such thing as a “good woman” anymore, if ever.

    DD

  76. MMA says:

    Great post.

    If I could do one thing for my son, it would be to make sure he is red pill aware as he becomes a teen and then a man. I’m thinking that some of the anger, frustration, and even regret is that I was not red pill aware sooner in my life. That said, I’m staring down 37, and though divorced, I’m making more money and having more personal success in my life.

    To the extent that my ex-wife wasn’t haaaappppyyyy, that is, and isn’t my fault. I was beta, I didn’t lead, I pedistaled her, and I took shit that I didn’t deserve.

    So I can be bitter about that, and sometimes am. Or I can learn from it and adapt my game.

    This post was a thought I struggled with, balancing the different voices in the game/pua/manosphere. I feel better than merely regarding women as a pump and dump. On the other hand, I can’t go back to being beta, it’s like betting against the house, and the house always wins in the end.

    I still struggle with it. But each day out gets me stronger, farther, and more alpha than the day before.

  77. I think many men who’ve taken the red pill are still internalizing the feminist rhetoric that frustration and anger at people who lie and are female, is equal to hatred of women. We need to clear the fog and maintain the frame.

  78. Dalrock says:

    @Whatever

    You are, I believe a team leader, project leader in real life?

    Thus, you have a fairly high level of status, top 20%, and have A LOT of practice leading people. Perhaps your wife would be a total wacko just like all the others without these advantages, perhaps she is also a “good hire” and a higher quality of woman no matter what.

    The average man, or even the far above average, may not have first, and most do not have the second. Their wife may also have already shown she is a wacko.

    All her insanity and suffering she inflicted he excuse with her glorious glory, but now he realizes that she is just bad. But what are his tools to fix this? The government and Team Woman have done everything in their power to make sure he has no tools. So unlike you, he is left being subordinate to people he now knows are crazy and bad.

    I am in full agreement that I have been extremely fortunate and the system is flat out insane. My preference would be to blog solely about the positives of fatherhood and marriage, but to not call out the risks and the insanity of our system would be irresponsible. I have spent a great deal of my blogging energy explaining exactly what is going on and trying to break through the denial. It simply must be done, and anyone who supports marriage in my opinion has an obligation to try to right what is terribly wrong.

    As for my position of leadership, I wasn’t in a position of professional leadership when I met my wife, when we married, or for the first 5 years of our marriage. I did however learn a fair amount of Game from observing my PUA roommate in college and I do seem to be someone people turn to for leadership even when I’m not in a formal position. In fact, leadership status tends to be something that finds me rather than the other way around, if that makes any sense. I think what it comes down to is I like to solve problems, and people tend to think I’m someone who can help them solve their problems. I suspect this makes me different than the more alpha bloggers of the sphere; I’m generally fairly happy to let others lead unless it becomes obvious that my leadership is required.

  79. Dalrock says:

    @Anon66

    “she is much more likely to be craving decisive leadership from you than fawning footrubs”

    This is no doubt true. The problem is that women are emotional creatures and while she will respond positively the vast majority of the time to your leadership there will be those times when she will be hostile to it. At one of those times she only needs to pick up the phone and call the State to come and punish you (no actual physical force need to have been used by the man).

    Simply put it can be dangerous for a man to try to exert his leadership and many an innocent man is criminalized for doing so even when it is in the best interest of the woman.

    I am fully aware of this, and I believe I’ve made this painfully clear in my writing. But the operative choice is to marry or not. If you choose to marry or are already married you aren’t protected from the insanity (hers or the system’s) if you choose not to lead. There is no risk free option, but in general providing leadership is the best bet.

  80. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    Finally as for the overall point about empathy, for me the understanding of why women behave the way they do has also allowed me to spot misbehavior more easily. I don’t empathize with the sins they are committing, but I do empathize with people being tempted to sin. Men and women are tempted to sin in rather different ways, and understanding how women specifically are tempted to sin has lead to a greater empathy for those temptations in themselves (not for the sins). Does it rankle? Sure, it does. But seeing people on the verge of sin and then openly embracing sin is going to rankle. Now, it’s true that these sins are tolerated and not called out by society, church, culture, family — the whole lot. And there is righteous anger about that.

    Your entire comment is excellent, but the above especially hit the target along with:

    Now, it’s true that these sins are tolerated and not called out by society, church, culture, family — the whole lot. And there is righteous anger about that. But the problem is that, again, if you let that anger, however righteous it may be, coagulate into bitterness, the only person really harmed by that is yourself. You individually cannot change the church, the culture, the society, the media, the world, your extended family and so on.

  81. popups says:

    question, how does a girl know that a man is marriage-minded and would be a good husband/father? I would obviously prefer a lesser alpha, but I know Dalrock advises against this, so a greater beta would be fine.

    I assume that most men with parents that are still happily married in their early to late 30s want to marry. What else should I look for?

    thanks

  82. Random Angeleno says:

    I agree, Novaseeker says it well. My paraphrase:
    Anger extended leads to hatred; hatred extended leads to bitterness; bitterness extended is the path to the dark side of the soul. The dark side that eats away at your soul like a cancer. The dark side is Satan whispering in your ear wanting us to hate ourselves and each other, and to wallow in that hatred for life. Jesus told us the truth would set us free, but there’s nothing there that says that the truth has to make you feel good and be happy, nothing there that says the truth has to lead you to a “kumbaya” moment, only that knowing it will set you free. But it’s up to you to do the acceptance, no one, not even the Lord, can do it for you. The truth is that we’re all fallen, broken people. Women are just as broken as men, only in different ways from men. To be unable to accept the truth about the sin in women is to sin against yourself for you are intentionally putting blinders on your eyes. To be unable to set aside the hatred and the bitterness stemming from that truth is also sinning against yourself, for without setting that aside, you will never achieve your full potential as a man because that bitterness is a black cloud on your soul that no one can remove for you, that follows you the rest of your days, that as Novaseeker says, sabotages your future.

    Yes accepting the truth is hard, doing something proactive about it is harder. What really stings is that this work will never be fully appreciated by anyone except other men. And not even all of them at that. That’s a topic Rollo has written about far more eloquently than me and I suggest you find his posts on the topic. Many of the bitter ones want to be lazy bastards getting sex on demand from our wives and girlfriends without having to shed any part of our beta sides … ain’t happening for most of us without work.

    You choose. You can’t change the truth out there. The scary part for most men is that the responsibility is all yours for how you act on it. For men like DaveD above, the ball is in your court.

  83. DEN1 says:

    My anger stems from the emotional and financial wreckage that occurred when my ex left.

    Since I decided to fight back during the divorce proceedings rather than just taking it, I think I feel better about my situation that those guys who did not fight back. I believe I heard someone on this blog describe this a man’s version of MAD (Mutually Assured Destruction). Initiating my own version of MAD cost me…a lot but, in the end it was worth it (I got primary conservatorship of the kids, child support, and the house). Had I not fought back (along with a lot of prayer), I would have been a much bitter person because I would have found myself in financial servitude to the ex and her ‘transgendered’ husband (think Chaz Bono) until my youngest turned 18 (the youngest is now 8 y.o.) and I would have lost contact with my children as they were planning on moving out of state.
    I am angry but not bitter about what happened. I believe this was because I decided early on to fight back, not listen to stories of guys always losing in family court, and make sure she knew that I was not the push-over she thought I was.
    Guys who are going through the system, all I can say is fight back with all the tools you have at your disposal; especially if you have children. Because when it all over, (and its never really over) you have to be able to look in the mirror and know you have given it your best shot. This is how I dealt with the the bitterness.
    One other tip on fighting back: fight like a girl; you’ll be amazed at the results.

    Thanks for letting me vent

  84. earl says:

    Which would be a better life….living in the truth and choosing to love others even though some might not understand or appreciate it…or living in the truth and choosing to be bitter about it with many people understanding and empathizing why you would be that way.

  85. gdgm+ says:

    Interesting to see Novaseeker sounding more ‘positive’ here, compared to more moderate comments on his own site:

    I think that the truth is probably in the middle in terms of guys’ motives.

    I suspect that there are some guys who really can’t be bothered. I think there are others who would be more bothered if they felt they had a realistic chance with the women they care to be bothered about — I think that’s a key. For a lot of guys in the mid-range, (say 5-7 on the adjusted guy SMV scale), they see their peers hooking up with guys who are +2-3 on the SMV scale relative to the women. This discourages a lot of guys from bothering, and then they relegate to video games and so on. I think it has to do with the hookup culture when guys see their SMV peer women hooking up with guys who are +2-3 on the SMV scale, which means they would be looking at women who are -2-3 on the SMV scale relative to them — which means as a male 6, a woman who is a 3-4. When viewed that way, it’s hardly surprising that a fair number of these guys opt for the X-box instead of a 3-4 woman.

    Of course, they could up their SMV from, say, a 6 to an 8, and then play the carousel game with female 5-6′s, but that takes effort, and too few men want to be bothered with it.

    Given that quote, DaveD’s comment may not be so far afield from the truth…

  86. They Call Me Tom says:

    I don’t have much bitterness myself. Then again, I think the bitterness can only come when you’re run through the meat grinder of divorce. At worst, I experienced some frustration way back when, when I was made to realize that there are broken things that can’t be fixed in some people. In the present, I can only shrug my shoulders. The reality of things is what it is, one simply has to choose how to compensate for reality. If reality is that you want to be married and have children, that the majority of women aren’t marriage material, you simply go forward keeping your eyes open for the minority of women that are. Eventually one of the minority won’t already be married, ha ha. I’ve never had trouble in the end, finding women. The trouble has been in finding the right women. That isn’t enough to make me bitter.

  87. Novaseeker says:

    Given that quote, DaveD’s comment may not be so far afield from the truth…

    Oh I can understand why guys make that choice, as I say there. It’s easy to become disheartened by the whole thing and give up. Especially with so many women doing the wrong thing without anyone holding them to account for it.

    The key, though, is if you DO make that choice to opt out, make it without bitterness. If you do want to be involved with women, then re-assess yourself and your goals, re-tool yourself, and decide how to proceed based on what you know.

    I have no problem with guys opting for X-Box. It’s likely not the best option, objectively, but if you’ve decided that you don’t want women in your life, that’s your decision as long as it is made with deliberation and soberly and not out of exasperation. I do have a problem with guys who are X-Boxing out of bitterness, because that will lead them into a terminal dead-end, in life in general, not just with respect to girls.

    So, yes, I understand the dynamics of *why* guys let themselves become bitter after their anger washes over them. But it’s still bad for them. X-Boxing is fine (here I probably differ a bit from Dalrock, but probably not too much), but don’t be bitter in your X-Boxing. If you’re going to X-Box, be a champion X-Boxer, be happy and joyful in your X-Boxing and be content with your X-Box life, without being bitter.

    Note: by “X-Boxing” I mean opting out from women and relationships long term. I don’t mean literally playing video games with an X-Box, although for some guys that may be a part of it. I don’t own an X-Box, for the record. :)

  88. mackPUA says:

    Women like everything else, empathy & sympathy is all about women avoiding responsibility

    With men its about taking responsibility for the object at hand

    Women cry not to empathise with the person but to avoid taking responsibility, ie women blubberring at game shows …

    When men see a woman crying, especially for an emotional person, are all forms of avoiding taking responsibility for their actions

    Emotional people dont take responsibility for anything, as responsibility is a trait of logic

    Women are essentially trained by other women, to use emotions as a winning strategy in a loosing situation

    Unfortunately for women, the whole point of not winning, is to learn from the event & avoid repeating it

    Glossing over the trials & tribulations of life, ie crap you should be learning from, by realising them for what they are … life learning experiences

    Women dont understand, why they dont succeed in the first place

    Responsibility & the truth, when in comes to life, are all about strategy

    Life is all about strategy, responsibility & the truth, are the key players in all strategy

  89. A big source of the frustration is that a lot of men are seeing, correctly, that sluts aren’t bearing any adverse consequences for their behavior. She gets to spend her late teens and all her 20s sexing the hot alpha studs; then parachutes into a marriage to a niceguy beta.

    They may not be aware of the consequences, and our society may try to paper over the consequences, but the consequences are still real and serious. Even if she manages to find a nice-guy beta to marry her up, she probably won’t be very happy with him, and will quite possibly divorce him — and maybe a series of other men — throughout her 30s/40s/50s. Spending the last 2/3 of your life either alone or living with someone you find viscerally disappointing is a pretty bad consequence (for both of them).

    There’s also the consequence of childlessness for those who wait too long. Or for those who pop out a couple kids along the way while single, there’s the consequence of having used daycare and modern entertainment to raise a couple brats who won’t respect her and aren’t likely to be there for her in her dotage. A woman in her 40s (other than one called to chaste religious life) who either has no children or sits at home wishing they would visit is a pathetic, empty sight.

    Add in STDs, financial trouble (even if she gets alimony and child support, she’ll almost never have the kind of financial stability that a wife who submits to her husband’s financial authority can have), plugging away at a meaningless office-drone “career,” and shallow friendships that come and go as her peers marry, have kids, and divorce and shift in and out of her life.

    They may get everything they want — or think they want — but they’re not content, they don’t feel safe, and they’re unhappy. Pretty bad consequence.

    I just wrote on my own blog about my own red-pill empathy for women, based on how women have been misled at least as badly as men. The lies have led to women having more hedonistic fun than men, and being able to shift the responsibilities for their sins onto men; but as a result, they end up broken more badly than men.

    Since really absorbing the red pill and doing a lot of reading and thinking about what it means, and reading blogs like this one that discuss the root causes, rarely a week goes by that I don’t see some example of why women shouldn’t be put in charge of things, aren’t capable of decision-making, and truly need to submit to men to be happy. Once you see that, you can’t stop seeing it all around you, and then you also can see how frustrated, confused, and unhappy being strongandindependent really makes them. It’s not hard to empathize with that.

    Doing something about it is another thing, of course, because women today live in such a fantasy world that most don’t even have points of reference in reality from which to be led to the truth. You have to pick your spots — learn defensive game, meaning that you establish your boundaries and don’t let women take advantage of you — and be ready to give honest, truthful advice to any woman who gets unhappy enough to ask for it. But don’t expect to reach women who aren’t hitting bottom enough to be looking for truth, and don’t expect to save many (or any).

  90. Dalrock says:

    @Novaseeker

    X-Boxing is fine (here I probably differ a bit from Dalrock, but probably not too much), but don’t be bitter in your X-Boxing. If you’re going to X-Box, be a champion X-Boxer, be happy and joyful in your X-Boxing and be content with your X-Box life, without being bitter.

    I don’t think we differ there. The fact is that a very large percentage of women aren’t suitable for marriage, especially under the current legal and social environment. The church could help a great deal by sincerely standing up for biblical marriage, but we have to work with what is real, not what we wish was the case. Even if this weren’t the case, I don’t see marriage as an obligation of either men or women. There is no obligation to make the vow, only to keep the vow once it is made.

  91. justsomesquare says:

    I get why men would be bitter after discovering the truth. I’m female and I’m bitter! I’m trying not to be and I feel a lot better than I used to, but I still get angry over what feminism has done to both men and women, to children, to marriage, to society… I’m angry that there was no alternative (to being a feminist) presented to me when I was growing up. My family wasn’t religious, so anything antithetical to feminism was portrayed as fringe, warped, kooky, even outright evil. Who’d sign on for that, or even give it a second look? Especially when you’re a kid and it’s your mom telling you this. You just go along. Thank goodness I finally grew up, got sick and tired enough of people telling me there were thoughts I could/should not entertain, books and blogs I could/should not read, etc., and started digging. What I’ve learned has changed my life (and my husband’s) so much for the better.

    It kills me when feminists claim the manosphere bloggers hate women. I think men like Dalrock are the only people who give a damn at all about women. He cares enough to tell us the truth, no matter how harsh or uncomfortable it is. He sees us as capable of taking it, and of understanding it, and doing something with it. Unlike feminists, who treat women like eternal victims.

    I, for one, will always be grateful for what I’ve learned here, even though it has made me, in many ways, so sad. I can’t, in good faith, recommend marriage to anyone anymore, even though it is the greatest joy in my life. It’s just too much of a risk for any guy and any kids he might have, and I don’t see things changing for the better any time soon. With our current culture, I don’t see how they could. The only hope seems to lie in individual women having wake-up calls and making personal changes.

    Anyway, I know I’ve said it before but thank you, Dalrock. My husband is a super nice guy and therefore claims I was never really “all that bad” in the past. But he also admits he far prefers things the way they are now :)! He seems so much happier and at peace, not just at home but everywhere, including his job. He even walks/carries himself differently. We were out at dinner recently and he took my hand and said “I am so happy. I can’t imagine things being any better between us.” I think about that moment A LOT because it’s the way I always wanted things to be and I’m beyond glad he feels that way. I just wish I’d started asking questions sooner. They were certainly always there, “like a splinter in (my) mind,” to make the Matrix connection :).

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  93. TFH says:

    Quite simple.

    There is an evil gender and a stupid gender….

    The evil gender does highly immoral and selfish things, and ruthlessly rearranges society to enable members of this gender to get away with anything.

    The stupid gender does too little to obstruct this, even thought the stupid gender has more than enough power to so if it were less stupid.

  94. tz says:

    @sygyn – many thanks.

    @earl Which would be a better life….living in the truth and choosing to love others even though some might not understand or appreciate it…or living in the truth and choosing to be bitter about it with many people understanding and empathizing why you would be that way.

    In Shutter Island, in one of the final scenes, the question “Is it better to die a hero or live as a monster” is asked. [The movie, maybe the book has gaps but the point is valid].

    The choice to love others is Christ-like and completely disjoint to “others” or external events. I write this on Passion Sunday, where Christ chose to love us while we – and yes, WE – mocked, scorned, abused, tortured, and crucified him.

    We decide to love OR be bitter. You cannot live in the truth and be bitter because the truth is that the most bitter thing is visible in your mirror, unless you mean the truth in the sense of what the demons know. But in the latter case you are trying to live (v.s. eternal death) in a truth which you are trying to intellectually accept while simultaneously denying at a practical level.

    We are all crazy, murderous, psychopaths, some are more recovered. Some have swallowed the waters of baptism so are in remission. Yet our mission is to spread the cure, but the cure requires volition.

  95. Anon E. Moose says:

    Dalrock – off topic, but what is the world coming to when a Catholic Monsignor speaks out against the feminization of men? http://blog.adw.org/2013/03/why-should-men-grow-up-no-one-needs-them-anyway-a-reflection-on-a-recently-published-cultural-commentary/

  96. Novaseeker says:

    I don’t think we differ there. … There is no obligation to make the vow, only to keep the vow once it is made.

    Good, I didn’t think we differed much there, really.

    hat is the world coming to when a Catholic Monsignor speaks out against the feminization of men?

    He’s a monsignor, but it is still a good thing. I hope that the present pontiff isn’t Pope Obamacare.

  97. TMG says:

    My disgust with women is only surpassed by my disgust with male feminists and chivalrists. I am not a person who gets on well with other people in real life.

  98. dragnet says:

    @ Anon E. Moose

    “Dalrock – off topic, but what is the world coming to when a Catholic Monsignor speaks out against the feminization of men? http://blog.adw.org/2013/03/why-should-men-grow-up-no-one-needs-them-anyway-a-reflection-on-a-recently-published-cultural-commentary/

    About time. But the church’s cavalier attitude toward divorce is the elephant in the room–we’ll see if he brings that up.

    Don’t hold your breath…

  99. Novaseeker says:

    I am not a person who gets on well with other people in real life.

    Normally not the best plan.

  100. 8oxer says:

    It doesn’t make sense to get angry at women for being sluts, hoes and just cock-thirsty hypergamous traitors. It’d be just as useless to get all self-righteous and condemn dogs for barking, or to call for sanctions against housecats for liking to chase mice. I do feel sympathy for you married brothers, though. It’s always been a rough game, and these days it’s worse than it used to be.

    For example: It is now de rigeur for wives to be counseled by marriage counselors to have affairs. The looney who wrote the following article, a marriage and relationship therapist named Susan Gower, counsels her patients that the proper role for the husband is to worship the wife, remaining strictly faithful, and it is the proper role of the wife to have sex with as many men as she finds desirable, and to “awaken her husbands love feelings through jealousy”. Her kooky pseudoscientific papers are on the internet, for example…

    THE SCIENCE OF CUCKOLD MARRIAGES By sex therapist & relationships counselor Susan Gower
    http://iplayhewaits.blogspot.com/p/science-of-cuckold-marriages-by-susan.html?zx=7c352f4317625be

    When one reads this dispassionately, it’s basically the same advice given to Christian wives in movies like the pathetic “fireproof” which has been the focus of so much derisive laughter here. After all, if the fireman’s slut wife had not had her affair with the physician, her husband would not have come to communion with Christ, so she was right to hoe around and he was right to worship and adore her for it, to the tune of umpteen thousands of dollars spent on gifts for her, and etc. Her sleazy whoring behaviour is framed as the catalyst of many good and noble things in the film, and if she hadn’t had her affair, we are led to believe that the husband’s soul would be lost.

    With this as the marriage custom, both in the secular and religious world, I hope some of you fellas will cut me and my tribe a pass for passing on the attempt. Personally, I’d rather be the guy sexing up the women, than the guy footing the bill while his wife boasts to him in the morning about her sexual conquests the night before.

    Regards, Boxer

  101. greyghost says:

    8oxer
    For example: It is now de rigeur for wives to be counseled by marriage counselors to have affairs. The looney who wrote the following article, a marriage and relationship therapist named Susan Gower, counsels her patients that the proper role for the husband is to worship the wife, remaining strictly faithful, and it is the proper role of the wife to have sex with as many men as she finds desirable, and to “awaken her husbands love feelings through jealousy”.

    This kind of thing has to be enforced at gun point. I have never had pussy that damn good that I would just go for something like that and react with heightened love from jealousy. That stuff this counseler is advising is the stuff of murders and suicides. Without full on legal and enforced misandry it would not even be possible to even think like that. Much less run a practice founded on that bullshit.

  102. ar10308 says:

    8oxer,
    I think you’ve found a fetish site rather than something put out as legitimate counseling. Don’t post that crap here.

  103. Mencken says:

    One of your best posts ever Dalrock, thanks.

  104. 8oxer says:

    This kind of thing has to be enforced at gun point. I have never had pussy that damn good that I would just go for something like that and react with heightened love from jealousy.

    From the female point of view, this seems to be fairly conventional stuff. Think of the “wisdom” that women derive from that fool “fireproof” cinema, for example.

    Scene 1, woman has wife with disobedient husband.
    Scene 2, woman enters into overt relationship with hunky doctor at work.
    Scene 3, woman’s flirty dating of the doctor briefly angers husband, then causes a change in husband from defiant and rebellious to obedient slave-boy.
    Scene 4, husband spends all his personal savings on some foolishness for wife.
    Scene 5, wife returns, tenuously, and tells husband he is conditionally forgiven for his rebellion, so long as he maintains his grovelling.

    This is basically the same point that’s being made by the looney tunes “marital and relationship therapist” (wonder what her degree is in lol) in her “science of cuckold relationships” article. It’s the monolithic message to women throughout the culture, and isn’t a “fetish” as someone else is describing it. It appears entirely mainstream.

    In any event, we’re all brainwashed by cultural power to some extent. Why hate women for their brainwashing? This is the message they get on all the tee-vee programs marketed to them (there’s a reason it’s called “programming” as McLuhan reminded us).

    Regards, Boxer

  105. anonnn says:

    After being fed (and at first rejecting) the redpill I became extremely bitter for months. What helped me overcome was a combination of things.

    I’m a christian and was taught we are completely responsible for what we believe, no matter who information comes from. Eg someone gives you a bad prophecy and you (even in ignorance) swallow it hook line and sinker, it’s your responsibility if you act on it and mess up your life. Likewise I had to accept responsibility for believing and following all the bad advice society fed me over the years. (Yes your fault you grew up a beta/delta/omega) -as it was mine.

    if it wasn’t my fault what I did with my life who was to be blamed? If I had no choice but to believe what society/family fed me, why does the socio-sexual hierarchy exist? Why wasn’t everyone else like me? The point being if we accept responsibility, it means we have the power to lead our own lives, so we may have gone the wrong way because we were deceived, but we didn’t have to, so forgive yourself and now with the right knowledge, if you apply what you know in practice you can go the right direction. That is to (hopefully) select a good wife and not see yourself as helpless against hypergammy or abstain from marriage all together if you wish.

    Secondly I had to realise that society is also feeding women bad information. So while a woman (let’s say normal girl – erm doesn’t have a traumatic past, chip on her shoulder, medical conditions eg bpd -for the purpose of argument …) goes to college (insert the usual timeline) etc and is all those things we don’t like about most western women. It’s (POSSIBLY) the way they’ve been brought up and the simply don’t know betting like you were before the red pill. Does not mean that the current situation is all fine and they’re just all poor victims – abeit they mostly benefit compared to men.

    Before you go pointing out how evil women are, examine yourself to see where you stand. Are you living in sinless perfection? Avert your gaze from how bad women are (it’s only feeding the bitterness) and focus your energies into planning what you need to do to improve yourself, if God willing you do find a girl worth marrying.

    This is addressed to single guys still bitter who’ve never married/ been through the meat grinder and spat out etc – I’ve never been there so it’d be extremely foolish of me to think I could relate. Hopefully it helps, sorry if I don’t reply much, I lurk/ skim comments mostly, this is my first commebr in over a year of reading these blogs

    [D: Welcome]

  106. Mencken says:

    Dalrock, you might find this article interesting: http://nymag.com/news/features/retro-wife-2013-3/index2.html

    The Feminist Housewife

    This is not the retreat from high-­pressure workplaces of a previous generation but rather a more active awakening to the virtues of the way things used to be. Patricia Ireland, who lives on the Upper West Side, left her job as a wealth adviser in 2010 after her third child was born. Now, even though her husband, also in finance, has seen his income drop since the recession, she has no plans to go back to work. She feels it’s a privilege to manage her children’s lives—“not just what they do, but what they believe, how they talk to other children, what kind of story we read together. That’s all dictated by me. Not by my nanny or my babysitter.” Her husband’s part of the arrangement is to go to work and deposit his paycheck in the joint account. “I’m really grateful that my husband and I have fallen into traditional gender roles without conflict,” says Ireland. “I’m not bitter that I’m the one home and he goes to work. And he’s very happy that he goes to work.”

    There is something distinctly New York about this…

  107. Lurker No. 9 says:

    Apologies for the extreme coarseness of this post, but sometimes one has to be blunt.

    As far as Krauser’s “men are unworthy of good looking nice chicks” thing…

    It all comes down to whether one believes in God’s justice or man’s.

    Society, in and of itself, its purpose is to judge. To darwinistically decide who is worthy or unworthy, by social status. Therefore, society is, in and of itself, social darwinism.

    No offense to any Catholics because this is going to be really coarse, but what these young men want is basically their own personal Virgin Mary who occasionally gives them blowjobs and takes it from behind. Kinda like those girls who are being taught to see Jesus as their boyfriend, which you know is going to make them even more unreasonable in their standards.

    And a girl who judges by the judgment of the world, which is social darwinism, is no Virgin Mary to these guys. So it’s hypocritical, but their condition for girls is that they are always unconditionally loving, because to not do so is to be socially darwinistic.

    So in their minds, to tell a man that he is unworthy of the girl who makes him hard, is to tell him that he is darwinistially unworthy of being happy.

    That is why guys are so bitter, because they were taught that God’s truth and darwinism were totally separate and so they could satisfy their carnal lusts while telling themselves it was transcendent love for a pretty girl, and now we know that that just isn’t true…a girl who can unconditionally love all is probably not going to be out to give Bobby Beta the pornstar sex of his dreams anyway.

  108. Johnycomelately says:

    A

    http://evoandproud.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/who-saw-it-coming.html
    http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3406900292.html

    Marriage squeeze is a difficult topic as it is not premised on absolute sex ratios at any given time but by ratios of different age cohorts, given that men generally tend to marry women younger than themselves.

    When sex ratios are low (less men than women) men engage in promiscuous sex which is what happened during the 60s and 70s (swinging 60s & 70s), the whole generation was premised on sex, drugs and rock and roll, which was driven by men’s choices. That’s why feminism was so virulent during the 60s and 70s (much like today’s MRAs).

    Problem is the cultural template for ‘free love’ was set by men and today is being dutifully followed by women and we are now being punished for the sins of our fathers. Sow in the wind and reap the whirlwind.

    Invariably almost all the ‘free love’ movements were begun by male revolutionaries following war and low sex ratio periods.

  109. donalgraeme says:

    I would like to respond to your comment Lurker, but I’m afraid I don’t quite understand all of it. This part in particular is less than clear:
    “And a girl who judges by the judgment of the world, which is social darwinism, is no Virgin Mary to these guys. So it’s hypocritical, but their condition for girls is that they are always unconditionally loving, because to not do so is to be socially darwinistic.”

  110. Lurker No. 9 says:

    Yes I was realizing that even after editing it to not be near gibberish it still kinda comes off disconnected.

    What I’m saying there though, is that guys expect women to not hold them to any sort of social standards whatsoever, while still preferring only to have good looking girls.

    Which, because social standards is social darwinism, in their minds it’s incompatible with higher truth and therefore a girl who expects any social worth of them, even if simply to not be a socially awkward manchild, is no Virgin Mary.

  111. donalgraeme says:

    Correct me if I am getting this wrong.

    What you are saying is that many men foolishly believed that “good” women wouldn’t judge them by worldly standards (social standards or social darwinism), and so the men believed that they didn’t have to focus on or work on meeting any worldly standards in order to gain the favor of women?

    And that any woman who actually did hold them to worldly standards was by her very nature not living up to their expectations of how a good women would behave?

  112. Lurker No. 9 says:

    Yes, exactly.

    I mean think about it…how many of us believe in “the one.” The logical conclusion to believing that there is one destined mate for us, why should we get in God’s way and “work” towards it? Hell, we bristle against the very idea that “relationships take work,” because if they are pre-ordained by God, they should automatically work perfectly because how can God himself fail?

    As you see, a very comfortable bit of sophistry to sanctify a selfish and lazy approach to relationships.

    It would be very easy if we could simply throw that out as such, and then undertake to live up to the demands and judgments of Society Almighty, but that’s just it…as I said, the very idea of a society is socially darwinistic, because it means that people must live up to what that society says or be cast out, in spirit if not in body.

    Therefore, the bitterness comes from knowing the truth, that women are just as human as we are and not angels who love perfectly as we are led to believe, yet at the same time not being able to give up the idea that a true life should be to live in pointed, vehement denial of worldly social darwinism.

  113. donalgraeme says:

    That really doesn’t apply to me then. I never really got sold on the whole “soul mate” thing. Nor did I fall for the trap that you didn’t have to work at relationships, because it was all preordained. Always seemed too Calvinistic to me.

    I can’t say that I ever bought into the idea of women as perfect angels either.

    To be honest, my anger never really turned into bitterness. I will admit to some sadness along the way, but not really bitterness. I’ve always known that was poison for the soul.

    For myself, the things that angered me the most were the following:

    1) Being told that women appreciated nice men. I could understand women not finding “nice” attractive, I always understood some of what women found attractive. I just figured it was something women appreciated in addition to attractive features. What angered me, and still does to a degree (although I focus it towards a righteous end) is that “niceness” is actually unattractive, and will turn women off. I could understand not being given a leg up. But being deliberately handicapped by people close to me, people I trusted? That was hard to let go.

    2) Being told that my future wife was someone I could open myself to. Someone I could share everything with, confide with, become my “other half.” Instead I find out that baring my soul to a women will usually result in her seeing me as weak. Unattractive. Unmanly. And will increase the odds of a frivolous divorce. This angered me because I realized that I was that much more alone in a hostile and unforgiving world.

    3) Being told that women respect strength of character. That is what I was led to believe. That a woman would respect a man who made difficult choices and showed some discipline. I cannot say that I was altogether pleased when I discovered that women saw such things as weakness. Learning that women measured a man’s worth in part by how many women he had slept with was an unhappy discovery. As a Christian, it was discouraging to learn that living to please God, and not the World, would reduce my attractiveness in the eyes of women. This was especially tough for me, because the reverse is not the same when it comes to women. A woman’s value (MMV) decreases the more men she sleeps with. And her attractiveness (SMV) is unaffected by such things.

    There is more, of course. But that is what comes to mind. Dalrock, perhaps that is what is needed next. A venting thread for men to express all of their frustrations and feelings about the red pill. A little catharsis might be the order of the day.

  114. kios says:

    Whoever made that comment about men not wanting to settle for women with much lower SMVs is dead right. This is especially true for guys like me that are shorter than average and have receding hairlines. Getting a woman that is roughly on my level is very difficult and requires more effort that isn’t justified by the end result. When i mentioned this in front of a woman close to my age—mid 30s–she was offended and said that shallow men like me don’t deserve any woman at all. To her, and to most feminists, ‘justice’ in dating means that i should date a fat 4 and be grateful. In countries with less height prejudice though i have no problem pulling 6’s and 7’s and even the occasional 8. In Australia though, I’m invisible to most women above a 5 unless i use game, and my game is far from tight.

    For some men, the SMP is brutal.

  115. Ton says:

    The idea relationships take work is nonsense. I have a ton of friends, no work required to keep those social circles rolling. Those relationships are based on the common goal of work, shoot better, lift more, ride here etc etc.

    I have a horse and a dog. Those relationships take work in the sense I have to physical care for them and took work to train them. Cannot recall the last behavior of either I had to correct, so the double whammy ends and honestly the horse/ dog chores are a joy once the training sets in.

    Same could be said of my son, although he took more years of training. He’s 20 now, doing well on his own and our relationship is an easy one. Work no longer required

    Relationships with women take work because the bullshit never ends. It’s not 2 years of training then relative easy interaction, it’s constant work. My daughter is 23 and the training is still on going.

    Interactions/ relationship with women take work. Good luck finding one worth the effort

  116. Ivar says:

    Ton’s post gets ten stars. He’s nailed it. The work never ends, either. How many older fellows do you know who mostly stay in the garage for most of the day? There’s a reason for that.

  117. Marmot says:

    Here is what my friend had to say (forgive the crudity) about this article:

    Dalrock has gone insane…

    [i]“My advice in this area is to first consider your own failures, those you have truly repented from.”[/i]

    And what are those failures of my own? When have I ever done anything bad to any woman? To anyone in general? That’s why I’m bad, and if I were an asshole then I’d be good…

    Put yourself in their shoes? They only deserve to be ***!*”*#*$*$!$!!$! I am disgusted by all of them – Samson said it well!

    So I’m bad because I had a fantasy that women were good, and this actually wasn’t real so it turns out it’s normal that they’re pieces of **** and I’m horrible for expecting otherwise! OMG

    He’s an *!*?!*#!. First of all, everyone judges for himself. If I have some kind of honor code/bushido, it’s natural that I’ll expect it from a woman. But the *$*$*$! doesn’t have it, she cares only about satisfying her tingles.

    What does that have to do with leadership? That doesn’t mean that I won’t lead her – that’s an entirely another concept – he has confused and muddled everything here and now thinks he’s smart…

    ————-

    I can’t say that I agree with him 100%, but I do think that his basic idea is correct: why should men be responsible for following someone who absolutely cannot be trusted unless enslaved? It makes the whole thing as unenjoyable as having to manage cattle.

  118. Lurker No. 9 says:

    @donal

    Well a lot of what you say goes into what I was saying, though I take your point about it not being your real motivation.

    I would also like to quibble and say that “angels who love perfectly” is not the same as your interpretation, that is “women are perfect angels.”

    You see, it goes back to the whole Virgin Mary thing.

    We seek unconditional love, because if they don’t love unconditionally then they are loving according to the standards of Society and Man.

    But that’s a problem, because to love truly unconditionally, that means they’d have to love everyone, perhaps even love them as much as they love you, which if you want her to love you with more than the same love she shows everyone, well what are the implications there?

    Perhaps what they’re thinking is that a truly “unconditionally loving” woman should essentially be “friends with benefits” to everyone? That sounds obnoxious but hear me out: Since part of the point of getting unconditional love is so we enjoy the benefit of love without having any responsibility towards the relationship, doesn’t that thereby imply a sort of “friends with benefits” arrangement?

    So, while every person with more than a basic imagination is in danger of developing a highly idealized version of what love is, the Catholic Church has mastered it on a grand scale, and so the Madonna/Whore complex is there for a reason.

    And as hinted at above, there is both legitimate and selfish reasons for desiring it.

    It’s legitimate to desire to be loved and to be happy in spite of being weak and worthless, as Jesus came for both the weak and the strong, and legitimate to despise it when society celebrates and encourages the strong and beautiful at the expense of the weak and ugly.

    However, it’s not legitimate to pursue this as a way of seeking shameful satisfaction of ones carnal desires by covering them with a sanctified rationalization, i.e the whole hyperidealized love object essentially giving you pornstar satisfaction. Nor also to use this as a way to buy into the social darwinism, i.e. “a princess chose me, therefore I must be a prince.”

  119. Lurker No. 9 says:

    I was a little clumsy with my point above, so to restate it more succinctly:

    The implication of desiring a woman who loves unconditionally is that she would essentially have to be a “friend with benefits” to everyone, since if she rejected anyone she’d no longer be truly unconditionally loving, and if she enforced any sort of responsibility towards their relationship, that would be a condition.

    So essentially what is being wished for is a girl who gives it up to everyone in the name of unconditional love, but somehow making you special anyway.

  120. mackPUA says:

    Athol Kay sums up why men are bitter about women … he’s talking about kids with mental issues, but it translates to batshit crazy women, pretty well, as women are essentially children with vagina’s, with batshit crazy mental problems … being a privileged slut has its drawbacks … in the mental department … lmao

    “The short answer is that pretty much everything I’ve written about behavior modification on MMSL has come from my experience in dealing with behaviorally challenged children as part of my nursing work.

    All my experience in dealing with developmentally disabled, psychiatric, teenagers has been very helpful in finding ways to effectively deal with… ah… well… er… what’s the word I’m looking for… oh… women.”

    “There is always the combination of (1) the real effects of the real disorder, plus (2) the way they purposely use the disorder to get what they want and avoid what they don’t want.”

    Also Athol Kay on shit tests & what they REALLY are all about … no its not a hardwired fitness test …

    “So coming back to the question of a tantrum that has no logical antecedent… all kids test their parents and push limits. It’s logical to attempt to control your environment and maximize the volume of goodies coming your way.

    So NOT the yellow, only the red, only the red, only the red… OBEY ME FOOLISH MINION ONLY THE FUCKING RED. Now buy me some juice or I’ll start throwing shit inside the store and screaming like you’re killing me. Oh look, juice. Excellent.

    Also I wish to ride the rocking spaceship thingy we saw on the way in and I don’t want to see you making a scene about it either, why is it that you never listen to me in Wal-Mart unless I’m naked?

    See how that works? When all is said and done, it’s just a battle between two frames…”

    Get your frame right, hold the bitch responsible for shit testing you & call her out on her shit, THATS how you stop women shit testing you

    Insulting women & calling them out for their shit, ARE the most important tools to use against a woman in a relationship

    As a PUA & gamer, its important to REMEMBER game, ie cocky funny, is designed to get you laid, it will NOT give you power in a relationship

    Be masculine, arrogant, aloof, & stand your ground, & stop putting up with shit from your woman

    Call her out on everything

    When she goes batshit, call her out on that too

    THAT is what works in a relationship

    Game builds attraction, not power

    Relationship game is all about POWER management, NOT managing women

    ALWAYS have the upper masculine hand, in a relationship ALWAYS

    It’s all about bringing out the massive nukes of masculinity

    Masculine, dominant & competitive, … win EVERYTHING, even when you’re wrong, you’re right …

    In other words, Dread game

    Aloof, arrogant, masculine & dominant = death to hamsters everywhere ….

  121. Ton says:

    Unconditional love is a masculine trait, which is why God is our father and Christ His son

  122. Ton says:

    A stern “drop it” does wonders to shut down shit test. I just get tried of being in “train the woman mode”. Especially since it appears to be never ending. The ones who understand this need to be put in check are the ones who need the most training. Or want the most training. Reckon because it gives them the tingles.

    What I want in my state side life is peace not drama.

  123. greyghost says:

    Lurker no 9
    What I’m saying there though, is that guys expect women to not hold them to any sort of social standards whatsoever, while still preferring only to have good looking girls.

    Which, because social standards is social darwinism, in their minds it’s incompatible with higher truth and therefore a girl who expects any social worth of them, even if simply to not be a socially awkward manchild, is no Virgin Mary

    Social standards are part of the truth. Physical beauty is a truth. Social standards are changed and physical beauty can be influenced (make up,exercise) and masked (bright personality, cheerful smile) But agape love comes from real honor of commitment to vows and not romantic feel good. Also don’t fall for the apex fallacy. Women do this all of the time they only see guys that are sexually attractive in todays society.
    Truth fully most men would sell their souls to have a woman that gave the feeling in them of agape love and will do what ever it took to have it. I believe it is where the deep soul crushing bitterness and anger comes from when men know the truth. (red pill is a mutha fucker) Blue pill men spend their lives in misery trying to please a woman into being someone that will be worthy of agape love( the beta man fuel that builds nations from the ground up) God does strange things by mans logic. The submissive wife is most empowered and with inner peace. ( it has nothing to do with being a homemker but every thing to do with submission to the marriage) A red pill man that loses his delusion will find his lifes quest and enjoy peace. That is why Dalrock and all of you here are cultural leaders for a way to live after the collapse or to pick off those on the margin.
    Just some thoughts I have and hope it adds to the conversation.

  124. Captain Jack says:

    Remember the fable of the scorpion and the frog. It is pointless to hate the scorpion for its inherent nature. Your duty as the frog is to be prudent and aware.

    Women and children have rights be we as men have responsibilities. I do not subscribe equity or fairness in the situation only that is the way of our world. As a man you do have one other option and that is to simply refuse to play the game which many seem to doing just that.

  125. Jzb says:

    I haven’t read all of the comments but ill share my frustration/disillusionment.

    For me, my red pill bitterness is not about being unable to embrace reality. Certainly I know the truth now and will do all that I can to adept. My bitterness/frustration is due to the “sunk costs” Leap of Beta refers to.

    Now my ubringing solidified my nice guy identity due to a lack of positive male role models, a bat shit crazy mom, etc. With that said, ten years of involvement in various Christian ministries only further solidified those tendencies. In essence I wasn’t taught how to be masculine, I was taught/encouraged to be “nice”. And I was assured that being a “nice Christian man” was what would enable me to attract and marry a wonderful Christian woman.

    I’ve spent all of my adult life voluntarily celibate, recognizing my baggage and the need to grow as a result of my upbringing prior to entering into a relationship. At the same time I wanted to marry a sincere believer, so I heavily screened my potential interests and only pursued a handful. At the same time I wanted to live a life pleasing to The Lord, so I avoided situations which may lead to a casual friends with benefit type of relationship.

    All of that said, I made no progress with the women I pursued due to my betaness. My inability to make decisions, my “supplication” and putting her first, etc etc etc. Basivslly everything I was told was a lie, and many of the behaviors that I learned /were reinforced are not what women wanted and were not going to help me find a mate.

    So here I am as a 28 year old virgin who finally knows the truth. Yet I look back and am so frustrated, because I missed this opportunity to spend my twenties developing my own masculinity/identity/etc. I have some hope, but it’s frustrating as hell that I have to do all this now. It’s heart breaking to have spent 10 years invested in a lie.

    I have a good friend who is emotionally unstable, in terrible financial condition, irresponsible, etc and can not offer long term stability to a woman. Yet he’s a natural (he is cognitive of game though and knows exactly what he’s doing – he’s incredible really) and can pick up/bang a woman no problem.

    So it’s a mind fuck. It’s a mind fuck to spend ten years believing that being a responsible nice guy was the path to love and marriage, only to realize that women would willingly give up their vaginas to Someone who can’t offer any stability, and or is unwilling or not interested in committing. And to my dismay this includes “Christian” Women.

    At any rate I have a lot to process and learn. My thinking is still very black and white and it doesn’t help. But nonetheless I just wish I had those ten years back.

  126. deti says:

    Dalrock:

    “Without denying the injustice of the current system, I strongly disagree that sluts don’t bear adverse consequences for their behavior. If you put yourself in the woman’s shoes, the consequences are very much there. This is masked by denial from women and confused by men because for us the consequences women face would be quite mild given how severely bad their choices were.”

    The linked quote above in your paragraph was by Nova, who said that many women make the calculus that the difference between what they think they can get if they marry at 23 versus what they think they can get at 33 is not great enough to justify marrying earlier. IOW, she determines that riding the carousel is worth it even if it means she can’t marry as well later. You responded that she isn’t making that calculus because she doesn’t know there’s a calculus to make — she doesn’t know the carousel will restrict her options more and more.

    But even if she is not mentally assessing the odds of how well she’ll do later as opposed to now, she appears to be assessing those odds when time is running out. The reality on the ground is that a good many of these women really are parachuting into good marriages to good men, and at least some of them are staying married and having kids. I know the problems of the “I’m unhaaappy” marriage, and that is a huge problem. All I am saying is that in reality, a lot of these women who are delaying marriage for the carousel, work, whatever, still seem to be finding husbands. Yes, these men are not the best these women could have done if they married earlier. But it appears they are making the rapid calculus that a husband who’s not the best is better than no husband at all (when she is in her early 30s, of course, and can’t get the best men for any kind of commitment).

    Of course, we know the growing response to this is men refusing to marry or refusing to remarry. But this is happening slowly.

  127. Aremo says:

    “Remember the fable of the scorpion and the frog. It is pointless to hate the scorpion for its inherent nature. Your duty as the frog is to be prudent and aware.”

    Jack I don’t want you to think I am picking on you but this comment is part of an overall theme. The question of being bitter or not. If you are one of the more bitter men (such as I) you realize that you are in a double bind. Because female nature has been allowed to explode in all directions with no control and for decades now for the average man – there literally aren’t any good women to marry. By “good” I mean girls who haven’t been horribly slutty, raging feminist, stuck with 3 kids from three different sperm donors, or who you know will divorce you instantly as soon as the “love” wears off then send you to prison while rolling in cash and prizes.

    It seems that we are pretending that all that is needed here is some introspection and forgiveness on the part of men when a little rage would actually be better. “Dealing with women as they are” well exactly what has this accomplished for the last 60 years? Feminism anyone? You will get what you tolerate and by dismissing bad behavior you doom the next generation as we have been (yes I am older).

  128. Solomon says:

    I see all these folks pointing out bitterness and anger related to the red pill…

    My anger was towards my church. I came to them in desperation when my unhappy wife wanted to jettison me, and all they did was tell me to double down on the supplication. They could have saved my family, but instead, they torpedoed it. I served that church faithfully, and got lies.

    It’s one thing for me to lament all those years and efforts wasted, (ye cursed blue pill) but I had to let that go. The crime that church is still on the hook for? The damage the did to my sons. Their childhood was shit, as they saw Dad struggle though abject poverty, and saw their mom send their dad to jail over money, and all our weekends were playing second-rate video games because we couldn’t afford the good ones and we sure as hell couldn’t afford to DO anything.

    I had to teach my sons how 3 guys could eat for 3 days on 7 bucks.

    I’m not mad that feminism exists. I’m not mad about women’s hypergamous nature.

    I’m mad because the one last bastion of truth has fallen to satan, and that cowards now man the pulpits, doing immeasurable harm to each and every one that comes to them for help.

    Calling themselves men of God.

  129. greyghost says:

    Solomon you have nailed it. That is what needs to be known It is not about women’s nature It is about the lies about womens nature

  130. Some Guy says:

    @Solomon … had you been in my small group last Sunday, it would have been your part to beat your breast and admit that you lost your wife because you were not right with God. Everyone knows that women (being uber-spiritual) love it when men put God first. Even if she was wrong in some ways, your part is to focus on the only person you can change– you.

    (When pressed, the churchian leaders will agree that being right with God yourself will not guarantee your marriage. Alas… that’s the only thing that they have to tell you about these matters. Like the women they preside over, they are quick to slander any sort of male driven authority in the home as being mean, abusive, unseemly, selfish and rough.)

  131. Athor Pel says:

    “Ton says:
    March 25, 2013 at 5:40 am

    Relationships with women take work because the bullshit never ends. It’s not 2 years of training then relative easy interaction, it’s constant work. My daughter is 23 and the training is still on going.

    Interactions/ relationship with women take work. Good luck finding one worth the effort”

    I have a theory.

    God knew what things were going to be like with Israel, and the human race in general, so he gave Adam a woman so we men could understand the frustration in a personal visceral way.

  132. mackPUA says:

    The red pill is supposed to be a nuke, thats how high the stakes are

    Government & schools are all about training men not to fight back

    The red pill is all about nuking, leaving a scorched earth policy of not being masculine

    Use the red pill …

    Remember definition IS context, it is NOT reality

    Use the red pill as a nuke

    Yes be bitter & angry

    The red pill is MEANT to make you angry & outraged

    Its designed to make men use the red pill as a nuke to destroy the shells of people who hated you to begin with

    This is what most people dont understand, your personality is not you

    Its a shell created outside of your context

    Social intelligence, REQUIRES nukes, to recover effectively

    Complaining about the red pill, is alot like complaining about the after effects of hiroshima

    The red pill, is how men get shit done

    By nuking the crap out of the shells created by others who hate them

  133. Dalrock says:

    @Marmot

    I can’t say that I agree with him 100%, but I do think that his basic idea is correct: why should men be responsible for following someone who absolutely cannot be trusted unless enslaved? It makes the whole thing as unenjoyable as having to manage cattle.

    I assume you mean “responsible for leading someone”. With that in mind, I’m not saying men in general have this obligation. As I wrote above, I don’t believe that men (or women) have a moral obligation to marry. As I’ve written from the very beginning, don’t marry unless you find a woman you are convinced is worth marrying. The obligation isn’t to make the vow, but to keep it if you made it. Samson’s comment just under three months ago was in the context of having married. When another commenter probed where he was coming from, Samson replied:

    @Jordan Winters:

    So what you mean is, why oh why didn’t you take the Blue Pill?

    Pretty much. Of course, it’s easy for me to say, now that I’m happily married, that I wish I could “forget” how I got here.

    This is profoundly irrational. He wants to forget what he knows now that he is married and go back to his romantic fantasy. This is not only dangerous and childish, it is unloving to his wife.

  134. Lurker No. 9 says:

    [i]Social standards are part of the truth. Physical beauty is a truth. Social standards are changed and physical beauty can be influenced (make up,exercise) and masked (bright personality, cheerful smile) But agape love comes from real honor of commitment to vows and not romantic feel good. Also don’t fall for the apex fallacy. Women do this all of the time they only see guys that are sexually attractive in todays society.
    Truth fully most men would sell their souls to have a woman that gave the feeling in them of agape love and will do what ever it took to have it. I believe it is where the deep soul crushing bitterness and anger comes from when men know the truth. (red pill is a mutha fucker) Blue pill men spend their lives in misery trying to please a woman into being someone that will be worthy of agape love( the beta man fuel that builds nations from the ground up) God does strange things by mans logic. The submissive wife is most empowered and with inner peace. ( it has nothing to do with being a homemker but every thing to do with submission to the marriage) A red pill man that loses his delusion will find his lifes quest and enjoy peace. That is why Dalrock and all of you here are cultural leaders for a way to live after the collapse or to pick off those on the margin.[/i]

    I’m not so much looking for “submission” as I am peacefulness. Yeah I’m as much not on the MRA/tradcon side as I am not on the radfem side, but unlike the radfem side I can actually have a conversation here without getting banned, so here I am.

    But to your point, well I’m just trying to illustrate the thinking of some species of disillusioned, bitter red pill taker. Especially the unpopular/nerdy types, for whom to accept “social standards” per se would essentially be knuckling under to the jerks and popular kids who made their lives hell, so they sought to make their way in life denying the need for social aptitude.

    In some particular cases, perhaps unconsciously taking on the notion that because you had Christ, society in general could go fuck itself, because God alone was their judge now. And of course, this would extend to their view of women, for whom they hoped for the best of the best but didn’t want to have to give up their anti-darwinist anti-social view in order to get them, because again, to do so would be to admit defeat.

    You see what I mean?

  135. imnobody says:

    @Jzb

    I feel your frustration for the wasted time. I discovered the red pill when I was 36. 20 years of my life invested in a lie. So much solitude, so much celibacy, so much depression…

    The best years of my life have been wasted … they will never come back I will never be young again. If I had known the truth before, now I would be married and with kids. I am not bitter now but I prefer not to think about it because it makes me sad.

    @deti

    The reality on the ground is that a good many of these women really are parachuting into good marriages to good men, and at least some of them are staying married and having kids.

    Last Saturday, I chatted with a female friend who lives in America. In fact, this is a group of three female friends (let’s call them Maria, Claudia and Laura) , every one of them is immigrant (from Spain and Latin America) but they have been thoroughly and completely Americanized. Maria is the youngest of them and she has had ridden the carousel hard. I have lost the count of the number of alphas he has fucked (she is fat and she is a 4 at best and she has had friends with benefits who are 9 – stunningly good-looking and very wealthy). She is still young (now pushing 30) and she still rides the carousel.

    Claudia has been a complete slut. She is in their very late thirties. She is completely ugly but not fat. After having fucked lots of alpha, she married a year ago with a decent and good-looking beta and they seem happy.

    But Saturday news was about Laura. She is 40 years old. She has ridden the carousel for the 20 last years in search of the mythical alpha. She was somewhat pretty (not a beauty) and now she is average looking (she has not aged badly). For example, I was not enough for her. A year ago she was diagnosed as sterile: she cannot have babies (she was depressed about that). Fool of me, I thought she would never marry, she would die alone as a cautionary tale (as the manosphere cliché goes). Last Saturday, I was told she was going to marry a good beta.

    I don’t know why most of you see the stream of Captain Save-a-ho betas drying up. I don’t see it at all. I think it’s wishful thinking.

    Is this only true in the United States? As I have said once and again, I live in Latin America. I attend a book club and a 35 year old girl is going to marry another member of a club: a good-looking beta with good feelings. She confessed to me that, in their twenties, she didn’t want to commit to a relationship because she was pursued by many European and American guys, with good money. She didn’t want to lose options. She had several relationships with those alphas which didn’t last. Now, her fertility going south, she is going to marry this beta, which is a good catch (she frames it as having grown up, etc. etc.)

  136. donalgraeme says:

    @ Jzb

    Don’t give in to despair. Yes, you have lost years of your life (although not to lies, because there was no intent to deceive, just massive ignorance). You are not alone in this. What you lost, however, were not the best years of your life. A man’s SMV peaks around 40. So you have years of increasing value ahead of you. The best way to think of it is like this: My SMV is increasing, and continues to increase. So when I find a good woman, I have a much better chance of getting her than I did years ago. If I had married at a young age, odds were that it would be to a woman with a lower SMV than I can get now.

    Remember, you are in a much better position than a woman of your age. A woman who is 28 who had lived by the ignorant advice of society would be broken at this point. But not you. You can recover. Thrive even.

    That won’t get you your 10 years back. Nothing can do that. But be glad that you still have a future. Most women don’t.

  137. UnicornHunter says:

    @imnobody, what is your experience or impression of the percentages of women where you live that slut it up when they’re younger only to slide into respectability once they get older versus women who marry young and get on with life?

    Just curious.

  138. imnobody says:

    @UnicornHunter.

    It’s hard to say because there has been a complete change here. When I moved to Central American (in 1997), it was hard to find a single childless woman in their mid thirties. They had married or they have been single moms (out of desperation of not finding a man). A 26 y.o. woman was considered old in those days.

    This has changed very quickly and I think it is because of American influence (mass media, Internet and Central American immigrants living in the United States).

    Now, in 2013, I see lots of single women in their thirties with no children. I think they are the majority of girls of this age. I would say the percentage is about 50% in the girls who go to college (that is, middle class or high class women) vs about 30% of women who married and divorced so they are looking for a provider (alimony doesn’t exist here and child support is not very high). In the low earning classes, most women are single moms.

    It’s hard to say, though. I wish I had statistics. I don’t recommend people coming to Central America to marry. It was true a decade ago but now things have changed.

  139. UH, you can guess the answer, right? Whilst there is no associated risk with fucking around while young, most women will follow that path. Most of them will get married and most of them will lie to get married. Everything is catered to that specific mentality and society, church and most men allow them to get away with it. Why would they choose to marry young when they can instead have all their fun and still get married? Only a fool would do the right thing. Generations of women have be raised to fuck around and only get married later and they’re doing exactly what they are told to do.

    The best a somewhat Traditional man can do is shun those practices and places that glorify such behaviour. Don’t date, don’t fuck around and don’t get married, until you have vetted to the very best of your ability, the woman you’re interested in. Don’t get involved with a woman you don’t know extremely well. It pays to not play.

  140. Choked on red pills says:

    @Jzb

    You sound just like me. Everything you said. I served in the youth ministry and later in drama ministry. I went on mission trips. Every other month, there will be a sermon about how we should put God first and He will send us the desires of our hearts our way. Which means struggling to live out a holy life in faith. I believed that by putting a fair bit of my life in serving God, the blessings and the lifelong yearning for a soul mate, a companion, an angel and a holy woman would be sent of God.

    Through the course of all of these, I was taught how anything to do with sex was bad, bad, and bad. The sexual feelings and urges that I had as a teenager and then as a young adult had to be suppressed. I had to catch myself when I admire a female. I would ask myself if I was ever sinning because of lust. Or that the feelings I have for another Christian girl were actually sinful. It got to me so much that I dared not touch another girl (that includes handshakes).

    I’m 38. I’ve never had a relationship with another girl or woman. The best years of my life are way, way, way behind me. Because of my struggles in pursuit of living to perfection and being so much of a nice guy, my self-esteem gradually eroded away. Masculinity only exists as a concept that other blokes possess, but I believed never had any. I spent the better part of my 30s in depression. And seriously, I’m choking on red pills after stumbling on the Christian Manosphere less than a year ago.

    I’m not bitter. I have to be responsible for the decisions I made and the beliefs I took in hook, line and sinker. But I can’t say for sure that I have no regrets. I’m not angry at God. We live in a sin-cursed world.

    I need to rebuild my life, myself, my personality and my Masculinity (and Masculinity in God’s Eyes and Word). I’m still dating, but there’s just too much to process and deal with. What I’m glad is I’ve swallowed the red pills and not later. I’m trying to reframe the way I deal with women. I don’t have a male role model around me (even at the age of 38). I’ll just live and learn.

    I pray that your path will be smoother than mine and that God will restore the years which the locusts have eaten in your life.

  141. greyghost says:

    The simple statement Dalrock made about no one is morally obligated to marry to me is very important for soothing damaged souls and important to clear a man’s mind of confusion. Having a woman reject me a beta chump for the carousel is fine. Having a wife that can without consequence reject me for the carousel is not fine and that is all that needs to be of concern. Women behave the way they do because it is the law. We are morally obligated to honor our wedding vows. We are legally obligated to honor our wedding vows. The law says women now have no legal obligation, the church now says women have no moral obligation and social custom (the herd) says there is now obligation. So all we have to obligate a young women is reality and her perceived happiness. Game works well in that environment.

  142. Dalrock says:

    @Deti

    But even if she is not mentally assessing the odds of how well she’ll do later as opposed to now, she appears to be assessing those odds when time is running out. The reality on the ground is that a good many of these women really are parachuting into good marriages to good men, and at least some of them are staying married and having kids. I know the problems of the “I’m unhaaappy” marriage, and that is a huge problem. All I am saying is that in reality, a lot of these women who are delaying marriage for the carousel, work, whatever, still seem to be finding husbands. Yes, these men are not the best these women could have done if they married earlier. But it appears they are making the rapid calculus that a husband who’s not the best is better than no husband at all (when she is in her early 30s, of course, and can’t get the best men for any kind of commitment).

    It is true that a great number of women who postpone marriage still managed to marry. But there are two factors I would offer.

    1) We haven’t yet seen large numbers of women postpone marriage past their late 20s and still marry. Those women who have done so were a distinct minority. Even today a slim majority (52%) of white women in the US have married by their late 20s. Those women whom we see having ever married by their early thirties today (75%) came from a cohort where 61% had married by their late 20s (five years ago). So what we have seen so far is only 14% of white women marrying between late 20s and early 30s. Data, full post. This is a very visible group, but they aren’t anywhere near “normal”. Also, the more women who try this the more they risk creating a glut and shifting the MMP power. Large numbers of women choosing to marry when they are in the SMP power position is very different than large numbers desperate to do so just as the SMP tables have turned.

    2) Marrying an objectively good man and staying married doesn’t indicate that they are happy. These women suffered a traumatic collision between their expectations and reality, and very often chose between spinsterhood and marriage to a man they found somewhere between irritating and repulsive. The whole 10+ years of carousel riding was an exercise in increasing marital expectations, only to end up marrying a man who was in all likelihood a step down from where they could have married had they married young when their expectations were much lower. If you look at it from the woman’s perspective, this is an unmitigated disaster. The only worse fate would be ending up a spinster, and that is becoming an ever more real risk. The cost is still there, even though it is subsidized some by men.

    Consider for example the author of EPL. She is the poster child for divorce empowerment. She certainly did abuse the system exactly as we describe. But what did it get her? Now she is married a to short bald man nearly 20 years older than her. Only the most energetic hamster would say she traded up or even remained close to her previous husband. Yet she will show up in the stats of women who managed to divorce and remain (so far) remarried.

    Another example which comes to mind is a woman I described as “Mary” in this post. Within just a few months of my writing that post she actually did manage to marry the man she met on match.com. On paper this was a tremendous coup, and proof that women can make the worst choices and always come out on top. This guy was financially secure, full of youthful energy, and interesting to talk to. But she divorced him within a year. There was a reason this man was still unmarried yet eager to marry an older woman like Mary. He smothered her with his betaness, and always wanted to tag along in everything she did. Eventually she couldn’t stand his clingyness and divorced.

  143. No offense to any Catholics because this is going to be really coarse, but what these young men want is [vaguely offensive nonsense about wanting the perfect virgin/slut deleted]

    No it’s not. Men are not the ones holding up the process by looking for the perfect woman. Men, if anything, have gone way too far in bending over backwards (or forwards) to marry contrary, suspect, slutty women. A small minority of men are dropping out of the search altogether because they don’t think the risks are worth the reward, but those guys don’t think even a perfect woman would be worth the risk. The myth of the man passing up good women one after the other because he’s holding out for Miss Right is just that — a laughable myth.

  144. anonymous says:

    . In thinking that all women are above sin, men are living in a self constructed fantasy world. And at least in part the bitterness and rage comes from the fact that accepting the true nature of women only partially deconstructs that world.

    I don’t know any guy who EVER fantasized that “all women” — or even, any women — “are above sin”. Even bluepill men know that some girls are just evil, and every Christian knows that all humans can sin.

    The heartbreaking nature of the redpill awakening, lies largely in realizing that even the best women, even the women who honestly strive for righteousness, are captive to their lawless hypergamous drive — and that this walls off both themselves, and a lot of men, from the happiness they could otherwise enjoy. Plenty of great women, reject good men due to runaway hypergamy, and then pass into their 40s still single — and neither they nor the men they rejected, can understand why “marriage just never happened” for them.

    For whatever odd spiritual or evolutionary reason, the hardwired romantic script of a human male is radically at odds with how women actually work. Why is this so? Perhaps, for much of human history, those who fell for the lie were more reproductively successful? But whatever the reason for the disharmony, it’s truly shattering, world-altering, to realize that the way you are genetically programmed to see women, just isn’t true. And usually, you have to be emotionally destroyed before you can see it.

  145. greyghost says:

    Lurker No. 9
    I think what you mean is a geeky or different type of guy that is otherwise a good man shouldn’t have to adjust socially to get the girl. Yes he does and should. No man even a man that has saved the world is entitled to some good pussy of his choosing. That same man is entitled to have a woman that chose to marry him held to her vows.
    Red pill blue pill bitterness here is the social constuct the young men were told to base there life and attitude towards women as a way to attract women in the first place was a lie. Throw in the laws in place to destroy men that did attract a woman and marry and you have real anger and bitterness and rightfully so.
    The key to ending all of this is in the law. The whole christian church to churchian church as well as the emasculated man is just a reaction to the law. To see what it looks like when a man is full blue pill Look up the Deer Woman video. By blue pill standards those guys should be fucking top of the line pussy 2 to 3 times a day with bare foot wifes in the kitchen icing down the beer cooler and cooking something with a proud smile on her face. Not how it works.

  146. greyghost says:

    My red pill awakening was less on the delusion of all women are good. The red pill awakening I had was the legal bullshit backing up this crap. Everything from father’s rights to any women just saying some man this and that and the law taking over The legal helplessness is what I truely hate.

  147. imnobody says:

    @anonymous

    For whatever odd spiritual or evolutionary reason, the hardwired romantic script of a human male is radically at odds with how women actually work. Why is this so? Perhaps, for much of human history, those who fell for the lie were more reproductively successful?

    It’s a consequence of millennia of monogamy before sexual revolution came and brought humanity to the Sexual Stone Age again, liberating the Paleolithic instincts that have been repressed for so long. The romantic script was adaptive in monogamy: it get young men to marry, so increasing their reproductive prospects (back then, the vast majority of unmarried men didn’t have sex or children).

    I don’t think it was biological, though, but cutlural. It started with the trobadours in the XII century and reached its maximum in Victorian times. This pedestalization you have in the America does not exist in other countries of the world. This is why feminism is so virulent in the English-speaking countries.

  148. Krakonos says:

    @imnobody
    Hard to say. Even Heartiste, for some reason, thinks that women lose after 30. Although anything proves otherwise. I can see the same behaviour you described working in Eastern Europe.
    Maybe monogamous pairing and spinsters are hardwired in white man’s mind. It had been working for most of the history (from Ice age hunter-gatherers thru germanic tribes – described by Tacitus – to medieval christianity). Maybe there is some cultural influence (old books, old films, traditions) remaining from the past.
    I have seen staggering differences between (options of) boys and girls since my juvenile years. But still from a time to time I catch myslef thinking in terms of monogamous society. Consciously I know it is wrong but …

  149. anonymous says:

    ….that “niceness” is actually unattractive, and will turn women off….

    Yup. I’ve seen what happens when a guy who is tall, handsome (according to many women), well-employed, and a devout Christian — a classic beta niceguy who was endlessly told what a great “catch” he’d be, by Christian women who nonetheless, mysteriously, wouldn’t date him — steps out of his normal niceguy character and is a jerk for a few minutes. Women who previously show no interest, start fawning all over him. It is truly stunning.

    Okay… full confession.. it was me. I lost my temper (verbally, not violently), and women who saw it happen, started going ga-ga over me. This was at the end of a long process of redpill understanding, and it was really heartbreaking. This was when I finally “got it”, that the female tendency to go for jerks and reject good guys, is not just an endlessly repeated mistake (which is what women would have you believe). NO, it’ is their actual PREFERENCE. Niceness is a turnoff, goodness is a turnoff — even for Christian women. My “two minutes of hate” were far more of an attractor, than two decades of striving for righteousness.

    Being told that my future wife was someone I could open myself to. Someone I could share everything with, confide with, become my “other half.” Instead I find out that baring my soul to a women will usually result in her seeing me as weak. Unattractive. Unmanly…I realized that I was that much more alone in a hostile and unforgiving world.

    Yup.

    …I was led to believe… a woman would respect a man who made difficult choices and showed some discipline. …. As a Christian, it was discouraging to learn that living to please God, and not the World, would reduce my attractiveness in the eyes of women.

    Yup. Especially Christian women! The closer you are to Christ, the LESS appeal you have for a “good Christian woman”. This was world-shattering for me when I finally figured it out. I had to make the awful choice to remain Godly, KNOWING THE PRICE. Happy ending, I married a “NAWALT” woman… but… at a much later age than I’d hoped to.

    When the prodigal son story is read in church, I can totally relate to the righteous older brother. The prodigal? Not so much.

  150. UnicornHunter says:

    @FH, I did indeed guess that imnobody’s story would be that it’s basically the same there based on the anecdotes he had already provided.

    @anonymous – Plenty of great women, reject good men due to runaway hypergamy, and then pass into their 40s still single — and neither they nor the men they rejected, can understand why “marriage just never happened” for them.

    Right after my divorce, I dated a woman like this. By most any objective standard, she was a pretty good catch, but she’s in her early 40s now and never married and doesn’t really get that she’s been chasing after a fantasy of perfection that doesn’t exist, or doesn’t exist for her.

    The longer I hang out around these parts, the more I see that I actually did pretty well, considering how incredibly shy and insecure I was when I met my ex. I mentioned to someone recently, that she gave me three awesome kids and the best years of her life [23-40].

    Sometimes, I’m ambivalent about my divorce. It was the catalyst for finally growing into my potential. By the time the kids are grown, the divorce will probably cost me close to $250K, but the new me has succeeded financially over these last few years that I’ve recouped my cost and things are just getting better.

  151. Some of the anger may come from the fact that these women appear, from the male perspective to be living the dream. Imagine, as a man, if you could spend your years from, say, 16 to 36, going to parties every weekend and choosing whether or not to have sex with one of the better looking women there. Imagine spending those years accepting gifts from these women, letting them feed you at the finest restaurants, watching them fight over you, and turning down marriage proposals. Then, imagine that at about 36, after sowing your wild oats with as many women as you liked, you could find a nice homemaker to settle down and make babies with — maybe not a hottie, even a little fat, but hey, you’ve had plenty of hotties, now you’re ready for a good cook, housekeeper, and mother. Perhaps most important of all, hardly anyone criticizes you during the first phase, and everyone encourages you and plays matchmaker for the second phase.

    Religious objections aside, that’s basically the male dream, what most any 18-year-old man would sign up for if he could — be a well-cared-for gigolo until it gets boring, and then settle down and have a family. So women who follow the same basic script seem to be having it all — and yet the same dream doesn’t work for women. The hedonistic lifestyle messes them up far worse than it does men, and they can’t be happy settling down with the “nice-guy beta” equivalent of the dowdy homemaker after they’ve become alpha widows. That’s why so many are writing about their frustrations — they’re following the script they thought men followed when they could, but it doesn’t produce happiness for women — pleasure, sure, but not happiness.

    So sometimes I think we’re mad at them for getting everything we want, and then for not appreciating it on top of that.

    [D: Nailed it.]

  152. Dalrock says:

    @Anonymous

    Okay… full confession.. it was me. I lost my temper (verbally, not violently), and women who saw it happen, started going ga-ga over me. This was at the end of a long process of redpill understanding, and it was really heartbreaking. This was when I finally “got it”, that the female tendency to go for jerks and reject good guys, is not just an endlessly repeated mistake (which is what women would have you believe). NO, it’ is their actual PREFERENCE. Niceness is a turnoff, goodness is a turnoff — even for Christian women. My “two minutes of hate” were far more of an attractor, than two decades of striving for righteousness.

    While it is true that dark triad traits tend to be attractive, it isn’t true that all women are screening for outright jerks. Even Roissy explains that a player needs to tune his amount of “asshole” to fit the need of the woman. The women who need the most asshole are the ones who overvalue themselves and are out of control. Thus hot bitchy feminist lawyer chicks respond great to nuclear asshole game. But try this kind of game on a woman who is self restrained and believes in biblical submission and you will flame out. The real disillusionment you describe should be that modern Christian women are just as feminist as any other modern woman. This is made even worse by the filtering effect. Those women who are inclined to find stable men attractive are exactly the kind of woman who tends to marry young and stay married.

  153. The heartbreaking nature of the redpill awakening, lies largely in realizing that even the best women, even the women who honestly strive for righteousness, are captive to their lawless hypergamous drive

    Yes. The red pill has many parts, but that may be the biggest. Every Nice Guy has listened to a girl tell him she thinks he’s a wonderful friend and then watched her climb on the back of a Harley behind a grungy ex-con. (Figuratively, if not literally.) If you have eyeballs, you know that happens, but blue-pill guys figure it’s a fluke that happens with some women sometimes. (When it happens with ten women in a row, it’s just really bad luck.) She was abused as a child and doesn’t know what’s good for her; she’s afraid of commitment; he has some kind of unhealthy hold on her; she doesn’t realize how strong my feelings are; I scared her away by coming on too strong or bored her by coming on too slowly; etc.

    A huge part of the red pill — and a difficult one to swallow — is that the girls who did that are normal. They weren’t (necessarily) abused or having mental issues or hiding from something; they were just living life as they found it and trying to get what they wanted. There’s no Nice Girl out there, waiting for you to bump into her like you’re in a movie, who doesn’t have those urges. The best you can hope for is to find one who’s aware of them and committed to suppressing them as best she can. That’s not much of a replacement fairy tale.

  154. Dalrock says:

    Niceness is a turnoff, goodness is a turnoff — even for Christian women. My “two minutes of hate” were far more of an attractor, than two decades of striving for righteousness.

    Just to reinforce what I wrote above, a Christian woman who followed the Bible over feminism* would find a man who was forceful in his righteousness very attractive. Being righteous doesn’t mean always being nice, and in our current mass rebellion being “nice” is a near surefire sign of a man who isn’t really righteous.

    *I know this is a vanishingly rare breed, but that is part of the point.

  155. Being told that my future wife was someone I could open myself to.

    Yes again. One of the biggest lies my generation was fed was the “soulmate” idea — that a wife should be your “other half” (if not “better half”) and “complete” you somehow. I do think that happily married men feel like their wives complete them in the sense that there would be an empty hole without them, but feminism and egalitarianism took that much further to mean that man and wife would bring similar and equal things to the relationship. So a man started looking forward to having a wife who do for him all the things he was prepared to do for her: shoulder half the responsibilities, listen to his problems, pick him up when he’s down, show an interest in his interests and hobbies, etc.

    That just doesn’t work, because women just aren’t built that way. She doesn’t want a man crying on her shoulder as often as she cries on his. Men and women both were much happier when they understood that, and men saw women as sort of a strange, different species rather than roommates with breasts. Men in old movies don’t see women as intellectual or ethical equals; they see them as cuddly, flighty, not-terribly-responsible creatures who are nonetheless fun to be around for certain reasons, and they love them for that — and the women love them right back for seeing them for what they are.

  156. Dalrock says:

    @Aremo

    It seems that we are pretending that all that is needed here is some introspection and forgiveness on the part of men when a little rage would actually be better. “Dealing with women as they are” well exactly what has this accomplished for the last 60 years? Feminism anyone? You will get what you tolerate and by dismissing bad behavior you doom the next generation as we have been (yes I am older).

    Just to clarify, this (bolded) isn’t what I’m suggesting at all. As I wrote in the OP, there is a place for anger at injustice. I’m not sure why this point is lost, because I’ve outlined the injustice on this blog in great detail. Also, honestly evaluating women individually and determining that large numbers of them are out of control isn’t bitterness. We have removed the vast majority of social controls from women; it would be highly unlikely that this would result in the average woman behaving well. This isn’t what Samson was doing in the writings I quoted. Samson declared a hatred for women as a class, and due to their nature. This is very different from acknowledging the reality of a rebellion which has occurred after we focused the energy of our society on encouraging just such a rebellion.

  157. Another big problem is that back in the day [pre- Germaine Greer], there were a lot of men on the side of the angels who could clean Harley McExcon’s clock, pilot a household, keep Princess in her place [and in the Tingle Zone], and they were normal good, strong men.

    Official Feminism obliterated the GSM through demonization, like vancomycin obliterates Staphylococcus aureus, but allowed the more resistant Harley McExcons to flourish and multiply.

    There are a lot of young men who want to be a GSM, and it is this dream that dies the hardest.

  158. jsr says:

    “The “red pill” helps us understand their different temptations from ours, but understanding this should help us empathize and relate to our own imperfection. Key to this process is keeping in mind the importance of repentance.”
    In general, women show far less repentance than men do. They sin and claim they are sinless a lot of the time.

    “My advice in this area is to first consider your own failures, those you have truly repented from.”
    To a lot of men this is like trying to remember when you slapped a woman and felt sorry for it. Because remembering that slap will help you empathize with her stabbing you in the back. Vox identified the core problem for bitter men, “said paragons may actually, in fact, be considerably less virtuous from the male perspective than the man himself is.” This is the key. It’s one thing for a woman to not be perfect and just as flawed as the man. It’s a whole other issue for the woman to be worse than the man. How does a man trust or truly love a woman who has shown how low she is?

    “He says knowing the truth has left him cynical and removed some of the romance from life, forever. But what he longs to recover is something he never really had. He was in love with a fantasy, something which wasn’t real.”
    This assertion is at least somewhat misleading biblically …
    “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”
    “The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.”
    The bible seems to indicate that having a good and faithful wife that a husband can lean on and let his guard down with is realistic, even though rare.

  159. greyghost says:

    Very interesting the way the truth is being looked at, basic female nature and the law and culture as it relates to the female nature.

  160. imnobody says:

    That’s why so many are writing about their frustrations — they’re following the script they thought men followed when they could, but it doesn’t produce happiness for women — pleasure, sure, but not happiness.

    Not sure of that. Is there any statistic about that? I have known lots of former carousel riders happily married. I guess there are many of them that bitch a lot (after all, bitching is a feminine trait, even in non carousel riders). But they seem to be a loud minority in my opinion.

    And the less happy of them can have children, divorce, collect money and go back to the carouser

    Yes, some women can still be unhappy. When you aim at a younger George Clooney, unhappiness is the consequence (because unhappiness is the distance between expectations and reality). But I don’t see it working that badly for women. (And many women love being unhappy: without a little drama in their lives, life gets boring).

    When 30% of women are unable to get married, we will see younger women changing of strategy. Before that, it’s only in the future. Let’s wait another 20 years and will see.

  161. anonymous says:

    Niceness is a turnoff, goodness is a turnoff — even for Christian women. My “two minutes of hate” were far more of an attractor, than two decades of striving for righteousness.

    Dalrock: ..a Christian woman who followed the Bible over feminism* would find a man who was forceful in his righteousness very attractive….I know this is a vanishingly rare breed…

    I think I married the last American one. I suggest to guys who are still single, go to Russia…

    Being righteous doesn’t mean always being nice, and in our current mass rebellion being “nice” is a near surefire sign of a man who isn’t really righteous.

    Certainly, there are occasions where “freaking out and flipping tables”, is the righteous thing to do. BUT… those times are relatively rare. Most of the time, in most situations, a righteous guy is morally obligated to be nice.

  162. My last comment brings me back to an earlier one: I never expected to marry the Virgin Mary. Considering how eager I was to discard my own virginity, it would have seemed churlish to expect a bride to be holding tightly to hers. I wasn’t looking for a pro in bed, either. (In fact, because I married the first woman I slept with, I thought she was amazing in bed, until I learned better years later.) I wasn’t holding out for a great cook or perfect nanny, because I’m a good cook and good with kids myself. When I was young, I didn’t even particularly care whether she worked or not, went to church or not, or most of the other things I have strong opinions about now.

    Now that I think back, my list of requirements was shamefully short: she had to be attractive enough to catch my eye (which, as I’ve said before, included at least 80% of the women in my age range; I married one at about 160 pounds, and it wasn’t all “big-boned”), and she had to be willing to sleep with me. That was pretty much it. Everything else was negotiable and could be worked out later. If she was willing to sleep with me, and cute enough that I wanted to, I was ready to give it a shot. And I don’t think other guys were that much pickier than I was; certainly my friends weren’t, and I don’t get the impression that guys here were either, except for those who had specific religious requirements.

    And yet, like many men here, I spent much of my 20s and 30s in involuntary celibacy with no prospects. So I don’t react well to the idea that men being too picky and holding out for an impossible fantasy are the problem. I wasn’t, no man I know was, and I’ve never seen a guy write as if he was. Some may be pickier, yes, but too picky to find a woman if the women had been willing? Not a chance.

  163. hurting says:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/red-pill-bitterness/#comment-76190

    DEN1,

    Good on you, brother. I tried for two years to win but eventually caved; I will have to live with that for a long time. She is still not happy, and my sons are heartbroken.

    If I had it to do over again, I would’ve gone pro se, out of principal. I wrote all my own motions anyway, admittedly based on the boilerplates my attorney gave me.

    Count me bitter as of now.

  164. Dalrock says:

    @jsr

    In general, women show far less repentance than men do. They sin and claim they are sinless a lot of the time.

    And calling this out, including righteous anger isn’t bitterness. Hating all women, including the ones who resisted temptation or have truly repented is bitterness. Even in the case of the unrepentant (worthy of righteous anger), can you also not empathize some with the tragedy of what they are doing to themselves (as well as others)? You should rebuke the unrepentant, not out of hatred, but out of love. Modern Christian men’s greatest failure is to fail to rebuke the unrepentant women of our generation. This is cowardice, not kindness.

    “He says knowing the truth has left him cynical and removed some of the romance from life, forever. But what he longs to recover is something he never really had. He was in love with a fantasy, something which wasn’t real.”

    This assertion is at least somewhat misleading biblically …
    “It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him a helper fit for him.”
    “The heart of her husband doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil. She will do him good and not evil all the days of her life.”
    The bible seems to indicate that having a good and faithful wife that a husband can lean on and let his guard down with is realistic, even though rare.

    The Genesis quote is pre fall, and the rest of the story should serve as a severe warning to men not to pedestalize women or to follow when they should lead. Proverbs 31 is a description of the ideal woman, the kind of woman Jewish and Christian women should aspire to be like. It is very much like 1 Pet 3:1-6. Also, there are wives who aren’t treacherous with their husbands. Part of my point in the OP is not to declare all women equally guilty. If you are honestly evaluating women you will find some who are acting very well.

  165. Lurker No. 9 says:

    “Yes. The red pill has many parts, but that may be the biggest. Every Nice Guy has listened to a girl tell him she thinks he’s a wonderful friend and then watched her climb on the back of a Harley behind a grungy ex-con. (Figuratively, if not literally.) If you have eyeballs, you know that happens, but blue-pill guys figure it’s a fluke that happens with some women sometimes. (When it happens with ten women in a row, it’s just really bad luck.) ”

    With respect, we have to consider that ten in a row is just really bad luck, because the availability bias and deciding ones worldview based on anecdotal evidence is how feminists justify being wary of strange men, even though that amounts to making good character meaningless if you’re going to treat everyone like a potential monster.

    As to what you said about men holding it up, naturally I’m not talking about the vast majority of men. I’m mainly going on my own reflections and observations.

    As to greyghost, well I personally am able to fake social skills but the thing is my worth shouldn’t depend on that. Why should human standards, such as what society thinks to want of men, be of equal or greater worth than God’s? Or should God reject me if I’m a semi-feral manchild? Seriously, you say what you do, but the logical conclusion to that seems to be “others can sit in judgment of whether you’re worthy of being happy.”

    Sure, you’re right about nobody being entitled, but at the same time should one accept being judged as unworthy of what one wants?

  166. Opus says:

    Cail Corbishev at 12.20 pm nails it, as Dalrock says, but at the risk of wrecking his excellent post, I think it even worse than he indicates. The 18 year old man he hypothesises, is neither particularily handsome nor especially fit; he has no Game, nor is he particularily intelligent; nor for that matter is he well off.

    To expand it still further: everyone says, that he has yet to find the right person and regards his promiscuity as merely an improvement on speed-dating, yet when he gets a girl pregnant he either asks them to abort, as a child would interfere with his career and to this the girl agrees; or if she comes to term with the child, not only pays no maintenance but she pays him and everyone says that is only right and fair.

    When he eventually decides to settle down, he explains that he was let down by women, or that they were only ‘girls’, not real women, or else implies chastity these past twenty years which excites his intended still further. Should he have difficulty finding a girl to marry, his Pastor attempts to shame women from the Pulpit by telling them that they should Woman-up and marry the Cads. Should the marriage be short lived everyone will accept, when he returns to his roving ways, that she made him unhaaaapy, and more sympathy is given to him. He is then rewarded by the Court for walking out, by being given half the assets that his wife provided and an annuity for life from her.

    Krauser, on his Blog totalled his score for last year at Seventeen women and that is very impressive – for a man, and we are all envious. For a woman, intent on scoring, it would look as if she was either not trying or else had a sign above her head claiming inoperable genital Herpes.

  167. hurting says:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/red-pill-bitterness/#comment-76252

    Solomon…

    I feel your pain (really). I begged my church to enforce its own rules and met with antipathy and hostility instead.

  168. greyghost says:

    but at the same time should one accept being judged as unworthy of what one wants?
    Lurker 9

    Yes. Look at this way. A gay guy finds you attractive he would happily enjoy you having a sore butt hole. I ‘m sure you will make that judgement. Yes or no and you would never I hope want a system that will dicide that for you. Now sexual attraction that women respond to is fairly universal. But it is something that is required to get the pussy saying it is happiness doesn’t change it. And guess what you will be judged as unworthy if a sexual relationship is what you want. ( as it should be and this isn’t just women it is anybody in the world including you)
    One doesn’t need to change who he is but he does need to understand females and female attraction. In a sane society maybe a more stable and beta type of man was sexually desirable as a husband and with the fear of being left with out him if she didn’t provide him with a reason to keep her around was the drama a woman needed.
    At the time we live in a world that has no civilised foundation when it comes to sexual relationships and marriage. Any man that puts worldly value in a relationship with a woman is bound to lose. Just the way it is.

  169. Dalrock says:

    @Opus

    Cail Corbishev at 12.20 pm nails it, as Dalrock says, but at the risk of wrecking his excellent post, I think it even worse than he indicates…

    Krauser, on his Blog totalled his score for last year at Seventeen women and that is very impressive – for a man, and we are all envious. For a woman, intent on scoring, it would look as if she was either not trying or else had a sign above her head claiming inoperable genital Herpes.

    As I believe you agree, this is the brutal irony behind Cail’s closing point:

    That’s why so many are writing about their frustrations — they’re following the script they thought men followed when they could, but it doesn’t produce happiness for women — pleasure, sure, but not happiness.

    So sometimes I think we’re mad at them for getting everything we want, and then for not appreciating it on top of that.

    Again not denying the injustice of the current system (and I have written extensively on the injustice), the irony is that they are punished by getting exactly what they thought they wanted. The problem is the very nature they denied (the nature of being a woman) is why they can’t enjoy what they were so certain they wanted. Even the high yearly partner count which men might envy is proof of failure to a woman, as Roissy explains here.

  170. donalgraeme says:

    Again not denying the injustice of the current system (and I have written extensively on the injustice), the irony is that they are punished by getting exactly what they thought they wanted. The problem is the very nature they denied (the nature of being a woman) is why they can’t enjoy what they were so certain they wanted.

    What women wanted was to act like men, live like men and be treated like men. Then, when they ended up getting exactly that, they find that it isn’t making them happy.

    For this I feel sorry for them. They are miserable. Why feel empathy? Because the harder they try to live the “blue pill”, the more miserable they become. The same thing applies to men who try harder to live what they are taught by the blue pill.

    I can understand how some men might feel though, because women are miserable while living what many men would consider an ideal life.

  171. greyghost says:

    The men they were acting like were the men that they would fibnd attractive if they met one. Delusion and fantasy driving delusion and fantasy. All backed up by laws of misandry to make it all possible. All to find the love unicorn

  172. LisainVermont says:

    Darlock,
    “Even in the case of the unrepentant (worthy of righteous anger), can you also not empathize some with the tragedy of what they are doing to themselves (as well as others)? You should
    rebuke the unrepentant, not out of hatred, but out of love. ”

    Agreed. I find that many Christians, especially Christian females, seem to be almost gleeful about the consequences these women are reaping. The sense I get from them is that they’re thinking, “Look at that slut. She got what I deserved.” It’s almost as if they don’t want them to repent.

    I’d rather offer these women truth and grace, especially if they are young enough to turn their lives around.

  173. Dee says:

    Red pill awakening from a woman’s perspective:

    Realizing that positive personality traits don’t turn men on. Beauty turns them on. A girl can be a nasty, psycho-bitch slut monster and men will line up to martyr themselves for her as long as she’s beautiful. Sure, she may end up alone when she’s old, but meanwhile she gets 15-20+ years of being a brat. Considering that most women lack introspection, this doesn’t exactly teach her or her friends a lesson. More on this later . . .

    I was the girl that guys liked as a friend, but none would date. The low point was when a guy I loved said I was one of the nicest people he ever met and that I deserved a good man. Just not him. Sadly, being nice didn’t even earn a date. Instead, he manned up and married a slut (when he was only 18 years old–a wasted life). I was kind to him, she treated him worse than I’d treat a dog. However, he loved her, not me. She was beautiful, I was not.

    Lesson learned.

    I got a radical makeover. It took about a year and a half, but eventually guys starting asking me out, even ones that had me friend-zoned. The epiphany was when I realized that I could start behaving like a total brat if I wanted, because men would put up with it, even enable it (white knights), and other women would applaud it (yougogurl!!!). This went against everything parents and church said. They said people would love me “just as I am” as long as I had “inner beauty”. I was disgusted. Actually swore off men. Decided a man’s desire wasn’t worth squat. Decided most women’s friendship was toxic. Came to the radical notion that dating itself was bad. It encourages men and women to reward each other’s superficial qualities and learn to use people like disposable consumer goods.

    This was when acceptance and forgiveness set in. The bitterness was replaced by understanding that everybody was getting screwed over by our culture. That men and women were taught the opposite of what God wanted for them and misery was the natural conclusion. That old-fashioned rules of conduct that seem so quaint (like chaperons, women holding out until marriage, social shunning of sluts and requiring the approval of your father before marriage) actually protected men and women not just from each others worst traits, but each from our own inherent weaknesses. After this, I had no more bitterness toward anyone.

    The effect personally was that I didn’t date again until I was ready for marriage, and only men who were marriage material (Dad and Grandpa helped vet them). Life was free from the drama, heartbreak, STDs, and unplanned pregnancies that are now considered the norm in dating life.

    Most people just accept the culture they were born into, even if it sucks the soul out of them.

    Anyway, I ended up happily married. We went out on our first date when I was 23 and we’ve been together 22 years. He’s not my truw-wuv or my soul mate–these things don’t exist. He’s the father of my children. Children are the reason for marriage. We fell into Athol Kay’s Captain and first mate model naturally. Life is relatively drama free compared to people around us who are trying to be equal-partners with their spouse.

    I have no illusions. My husband wouldn’t have given me a second look, much less a first date and eventually a marriage proposal, pre-makeover. However, I wouldn’t have accepted him if he was a supplicating loser. He married me out of all the other cute girls he could have had because I wasn’t a slut or a brat. If I’d gone to the dark side, he would have used me for a pump n dump, maybe an LTR until someone better came along, but not marriage.

    The final lesson was that positive traits like kindness, work-ethic, loyalty, honor, etc. may not pay off if you want to be successful in the modern dating market, but they are essential if you’re playing the long game. The long game may be marriage and providing a stable home for your children or it may be a happy, productive single life. The problem with the red-pill is to digest it without it poisoning you. If you let it poison you, you can lose the long game.

    Anyway, to all of you struggling, good luck and God bless.

  174. Opus says:

    Cail Corbishev is definitely on some kind of role – keep it coming.

    Dalrock at 2.30pm says women cannot enjoy what they wanted. Is this correct? They may enjoy but do they gain happiness?

    This is what I think happens and I base this partly on having interviewed (purely in the interests of Sociology, you must understand) a number of women who not to put too fine a point on it are sluts. Firstly, you have the ‘if it is nice then why not do it’, which is of course the typical liberals call to legalise just about anything you care to name. Secondly there is the Apex Fallacy. They see (or think they see) some guys scoring all the time and so they want to be just like men and again liberalism tells them to go for it, as what is good for men must be good for women and if you don’t agree with that you are a sexist mysogynist woman-hater who can’t score with women – and that last proposition is easily proven. Worst still, they think every guy is scoring all the time (more Apex Fallacy). Thus they build up partner counts into three figures and even beyond. Inevitably some men are better than others and the more men you sleep with the higher your standards go, and at the same time the bigger the kick you need. Sex is no longer good on its own, fetishism needs to be introduced in varying measures as well as an unending supply of young men.

    These women however do not know that they are unhappy, indeed (subject to the usual complaints) they are having the time of their life – their Facebook pages (carefully sanitised) tells of the exotic travels and corporate perks; and their large salaries ensure endless entertainment; besides they do not want a man (other than for short-time love) and as for children, yes of course they love children but it’s not for them, they say – rather as if a Lion, could he talk, would tell his keeper that he was not the kind of Lion that likes to hunt down and eat Gazelles, perish the thought. Their Linkedin Profile reveals why; these women are high flyers, with job-titles like Director of Print Production which of course must not be mistaken for typist. Anyway, they are the envy of their married friends who are stuck with the same old hubby, the same bedroom every night and the same growing children – who cannot but envy and applaud their empowered life-styles. Only a jealous, creepy, bitter male will even dare to point out that they are missing out, as many women who have come here and been gracious enough to spare their time have frequently pointed out.

    Urban living, with frequent changes of town or city enables these women to re-market themselves as de facto virgins, for if they do not reveal their little secret which man is to know? Any man attempting to suggest otherwise will force the said lady to call upon the assistance of local White-knights, to protect her virginity and honour, and there will be no shortage of men stepping forward. The situation for them is thus different from the Duke Lacrosse case, as every member of that team knew exactly what the slut was like and any man attempting to man-up that young woman would have been ragged mercilessly by his team mates as the ultimate of ultimate losers – even worse than marrying the local bloated-beached-whale or wilderbeast: far worse, far far worse.

    Only a generation or so ago, most women married in their very early twenties and the men two years later than the women. Both were largely inexperienced yet convinced that their woman was 100% the person they wanted: They were truly happy. Empowerment has put a stop to that for women will not marry until their female friends marry which means, short of celibacy, either prick-teasing or whoring, thus if you meet a seemingly desirable woman in her thirties who otherwise ticks enough boxes, you must assume that either she has played hard to get and sees you as a Beta Provider, or has slept around and ditto. Now why should any man want to do that, if he has options.

  175. Why is this bitterness an issue though? Really, it’s a very rational response to have when a person finds out that everything they were taught was a lie. They were led to believe in a lie by the very people who are meant to watch out for them. It’s not just the bitterness mind you, it’s the rationalisations of such terrible behaviour that come afterwards, from the same church, society and women, that drive one into real anger. After discovering the lies, the society who feeds the lies to such a man still expects him to ‘man up’ and ‘deal with it’.

    That’s rubbish. A society that lies and scorns a person cannot then rely on that person. For such a person’s life is meaningless. You’re a slave to that society and nothing more.

    And in truth the same thing applies with women. If you cannot find a woman who has be taught to control her hypergamy and who respects a proper provider for a husband, marriage is simply not worth it. If she cannot control her tingles, she ain’t worth the ring. You’re a slave to her and nothing more.

    Truth about women is one thing. Using that truth to provide moral excuses for them is entirely another.

  176. Leo G says:

    Cail – “That’s why so many are writing about their frustrations — they’re following the script they thought men followed when they could, but it doesn’t produce happiness for women — pleasure, sure, but not happiness.”

    WOW! “pleasure for sure, but not happiness” the best insight I have read in weeks!

    Pleasure becomes like a drug, needing ever more to satiate the hunger. Happiness is like background noise, there, but only noticable when you quiet your mind to actually listen. The ability to find that quiet happiness disappears in bits as pleasure takes more prominence.

    The trampling of pearls under the feet of the swine.

  177. Certainly, there are occasions where “freaking out and flipping tables”, is the righteous thing to do. BUT… those times are relatively rare. Most of the time, in most situations, a righteous guy is morally obligated to be nice.

    One problem is that “nice” is too broad a term. When a guy says he’s nice, he usually means that he’s kind, caring, tries to put her needs first, etc. When a woman says a guy is nice, she means he lets her walk all over him.

    There’s a scene in the classic movie Roadhouse where Swayze’s character is telling the bouncers he’s just been put in charge of how to act:

    Swayze: Be nice. I want you to be nice until it’s time not to be nice.
    Bouncer: How will we know when that is?
    Swayze: You won’t. I’ll tell you.

    Now, if you haven’t seen the movie, trust me: he wasn’t talking about letting people push you around. The whole plot was that this bar had brawls every night because the bouncers couldn’t handle the riff-raff, and then they’d end up getting pushed until they were in the fights themselves. He taught them to stand up for themselves and refuse to allow bad behavior, but in a courteous, “nice” manner.

    There’s a lot of room for niceness between punching someone in the face or being a doormat. Righteousness doesn’t allow for either one. I currently have a female friend who is pulling some seriously bad crap of the “follow the hamster whither it leads” variety, hurting the people she claims to care about, and herself most of all. Fortunately, her closest friends are clued-in enough to know that what she needs is a dose of reality, and not people trying to be nice by patting her on the back and telling her it’s okay. Her friends have told her flat out what she’s doing wrong, and when she refused to change, they let her know that wasn’t acceptable, and she would be welcome in their lives again when she got her act together. They made it clear that they’re willing to help, but only if she shows she wants it.

    It remains to be seen if she’ll accept their help and try to turn her life around, but they’ve done what they can. She may just dump those friends and go find some who are “nicer” — who won’t call a spade a spade and a sin a sin, who will applaud whatever she does. Christian charity and righteousness demand better than that.

  178. Miserman says:

    Dalrock said,

    If you are honestly evaluating women you will find some who are acting very well.

    I personally know of a few women are genuinely trying to act with the meek and quite spirit that scripture speaks of. It is those “diamonds” that should inspire men to rise up and rebuke the majority who are making church the “rough.”

  179. orion says:

    @krauserpua

    You see, I think you are ascribing value to success with women that is unwarranted.

    Oh, she must me deem worthy?

    Funny thing is, the thing that make me worthy now are the thing that made me unfuckable not so long ago.

    Can I push her buttons, can I fuck her hard, HELL YES.

    Is she worth the constant gaming, HELL NO, why would she be.

    I think you need to find a place in your reality for a man who could, and demonstrably can, but really, really, does not give a shit.

    Beause we do exist,

  180. anonymous says:

    Certainly, there are occasions where “freaking out and flipping tables”, is the righteous thing to do. BUT… those times are relatively rare. Most of the time, in most situations, a righteous guy is morally obligated to be nice.

    One problem is that “nice” is too broad a term. When a guy says he’s nice, he usually means that he’s kind, caring, tries to put her needs first, etc. When a woman says a guy is nice, she means he lets her walk all over him.

    I hope you’re not falling for the new manosphere “nice guys are actually wimps” meme. If you or anyone else reading this, thinks that, let me disabuse you of that notion. Neither I nor any of the other “niceguys” I knew, had any defiict of manliness. That said…. this needs to be handled carefully:

    …he usually means that he’s kind, caring, tries to put her needs first, etc….she means he lets her walk all over him..

    At times these 2 people may be describing the exact same behavior, by the exact same guy. The problem is motive misattribution. The guy may be kind and caring on principle, because he’s too ethical to be a badboy. The girl may observe the exact same behavior and assume that he’s kind and caring because he lacks the courage to defy society and be a badboy. Thus, some of the manliest good men can be misidentified as wimps.

    On a related note, I once heard a girl say that she wouldn’t go out with a guy til he’d tried to ask her out several times. Her theory was that those were the only guys who truly liked her. And she wonders why she only gets badboys! In truth it’s the other way around. The oldfashioned gentleman, who may very well like her a lot or even be falling in love with here, tries once or twice, and then, if he is unsuccessful, sadly backs off and goes his way, because she’s clearly not interested and it would be rude to keep on trying. The guy who only cares about himself., whose sole goal is seduction, who doesn’t give a hoot in hell if she feels harassed or pressured — THAT is the ONLY guy who will wear down her resistance! So this girl misattributes obsessive, overboard pursuit as, “He REALLY likes me”…when it fact it means, the opposite: “He doesn’t care about her AT ALL!”

  181. Lurker No. 9 says:

    “Yes. Look at this way. A gay guy finds you attractive he would happily enjoy you having a sore butt hole. I ‘m sure you will make that judgement. Yes or no and you would never I hope want a system that will dicide that for you. Now sexual attraction that women respond to is fairly universal. But it is something that is required to get the pussy saying it is happiness doesn’t change it. And guess what you will be judged as unworthy if a sexual relationship is what you want. ( as it should be and this isn’t just women it is anybody in the world including you)
    One doesn’t need to change who he is but he does need to understand females and female attraction. In a sane society maybe a more stable and beta type of man was sexually desirable as a husband and with the fear of being left with out him if she didn’t provide him with a reason to keep her around was the drama a woman needed.
    At the time we live in a world that has no civilised foundation when it comes to sexual relationships and marriage. Any man that puts worldly value in a relationship with a woman is bound to lose. Just the way it is.”

    I think you misunderstand me.

    As I said, “not entitled, but not unworthy.”

    Or does accepting ones unentitledness mean Bobby Beta must accept it when Annie Alphabitch nuclear rejects him for being a manchild, and stating to him in no uncertain terms that not only is he unworthy of her greatness, but that he doesn’t deserve anything more than a frumpy housefrau anyway as long as he’s beta?

  182. Lurker No. 9 says:

    Forgive the doublepost, but to clarify:

    By “accept,” I mean accept not just the rejection, but the underlying message that because he’s beta, he’s unworthy.

  183. donalgraeme says:

    @ Anon
    At times these 2 people may be describing the exact same behavior, by the exact same guy. The problem is motive misattribution. The guy may be kind and caring on principle, because he’s too ethical to be a badboy. The girl may observe the exact same behavior and assume that he’s kind and caring because he lacks the courage to defy society and be a badboy. Thus, some of the manliest good men can be misidentified as wimps.

    If you replace the bold word “can” with the words “will almost always”, then you are getting somewhere. Women are great at spotting weakness in a man, even when it doesn’t exist. More often than not the “nice guys are actually wimps” meme is true… as far as women are concerned.

    Neither I nor any of the other “niceguys” I knew, had any defiict of manliness.

    Women would disagree. Remember, what you think is “manly” is irrelevant as far as women are concerned. They are the ones who decide what they like in a man, whether you like it or not. Their perceptions matter. This is where Game and the Red Pill comes in. Game has many meanings, but one of them is the knowledge of how women perceive the world differently than men.

  184. greyghost says:

    Or does accepting ones unentitledness mean Bobby Beta must accept it when Annie Alphabitch nuclear rejects him for being a manchild, and stating to him in no uncertain terms that not only is he unworthy of her greatness, but that he doesn’t deserve anything more than a frumpy housefrau anyway as long as he’s beta?

    That is ok for any woman to say to any man. So what she thinks he is unworthy with a little game that same guy will have his penis in anothers mouth having met her fo the first time 3 hours ago. It was a stroke of luck for her to say so. And that beta guy can come hang with us as one of the boys and he will be fucking that chicks friends in no time. Big world out there that one pussy isn’t the only pussy there is or will ever be. There is an art and a game to pulling pussy and if he is to the point of getting an emotional rejection like that from a bitch he is damn near a PUA already.

  185. Kate says:

    ” donalgraeme says:
    March 23, 2013 at 4:46 pm
    I find it interesting that the amount of suffering a man has endured out of ignorance of red pill truths doesn’t always correlate to how bitter and resentful the man is when he discovers the red pill. Some men who haven’t suffered much seem to be the most bitter, while others whose lives have been destroyed seem to find a calm acceptance in everything.”

    Very insightful. Once you have lost everything, all you can do is gain. Nando Parrado (one of the Andes survivors and a personal hero of mine) described how once he gave up hope that he would be rescued, it became possible for him to rely upon himself. And he did end up rescuing not only himself but also the other survivors of the crash. I recommend the book Alive, by Piers Paul Read, and his own personal account, Miracle in the Andes, to anyone looking for inspiration.

  186. Ton says:

    Being right with God is all the modern church has to say about any topic, yet being right with God brings no surety beyond not going to hell

    Regarding woman doing the math about future husbands; some girls in there 20’s don’t want to risk the 20 year old guy’s prospects. Not sure how much that plays into carousel riding. I’m certain a large portion of my appeal with women in their 20’s is my success. Sucks for the younger men, but it gets better

    I disagree with Dalrock etc about anger. God gets real angry , destroys cities etc and not being angry often enough has lead to generations of pussies and these problems in society.

  187. Lurker No. 9 says:

    @donal

    Well of course we’re more bitter despite having avoided the worst pitfalls, we’re afraid that we’ll either have to give up love altogether, or take the risk and end up fucked up and then have nobody to blame but ourselves.

    Because we lost the bliss of ignorance, how can we honestly be sure of our ground, ever? Not that we ever could, but before we believed that one could truly live happily ever after, forever.

  188. Kate says:

    Nice post. As far as anybody being a turncoat to their sex for helping the other “side,” I strongly believe that we should be ambasadors of truth and knowledge to *anyone* who wants to learn, male or female. A woman who understands certain things makes a better wife for some man. Helping men understand women makes them a better husband for some woman.

    To the man who wrote he got frustrated trying to help women at TheRulesRevisited, just remember that your words are saved for posterity and even if the person you were trying to reach didn’t hear you, someone else may have learned from what you wrote or someone may read it in the future. We never know the impact we might have on another life.

    The expression “when the student is ready the teacher appears” doesn’t mean that when we are ready to learn a teacher materializes. It merely means that when we are open to lessons we start to see them in places we couldn’t before. The teachers were always there; we just didn’t recognize them.

  189. Kate says:

    @Mark Minter: “And I remain at war.” I will live to see you at peace :)

  190. rayr says:

    co-Alpha Vox (I’m SuperIntelligent) Day has this post’s back, lecturing the Trampled on overcoming their “bitterness” —

    “It should always be kept in mind that the sabotaging that so many men suffer in their formative years at the hands of well-meaning women, clueless naturals, and deluded BETA males is not intentional”

    i dont think Mr SuperIntelligence spent much time over the past 40 years in the workplaces and educational institutions of america . . . to say nothing of its mancages and streets

    i’ve seen the smug smiles on the faces of these “well-meaning women” and the money flow into the pockets of the “deluded” males as they stomped another guy in their courts, classrooms, offices, on and on

    most of them knew EXACTLY what they were doing, and they enjoyed it, and they profited from it, in many ways

    when dalrock and mr superintelligence were partying at chuck e cheese with the other kids, a few men were already fighting their battles for them — and “bitter” was the first accusation outta the mouths of … well, basically everybody (followed inevitably by “whiner,” that was our cue to STFU)

    now Dalrock and SuperIntelligence tell us we are bitter and that the evil done to us wasnt intentional, sucha revelation LOL!

    on the last day that Christ sits on the Throne of this planet, more than a thousand years hence, the smoke from the burning of Rebel Nation will STILL be rising from her judgment

    and he is the King of Forgiveness — NOBODY is more merciful

    i wonder how many folks will tell him that her sins really werent “intentional” and that he is just a bitter boy?

  191. Dalrock says:

    @Anon

    The girl may observe the exact same behavior and assume that he’s kind and caring because he lacks the courage to defy society and be a badboy. Thus, some of the manliest good men can be misidentified as wimps.

    This is due to a deficit in the woman herself, and something which feminism nurtures. I’ve written about this here.

  192. Dalrock says:

    @Ton

    I disagree with Dalrock etc about anger. God gets real angry , destroys cities etc and not being angry often enough has lead to generations of pussies and these problems in society.

    I’m not sure where we disagree here. What about the following in the OP do you disagree with:

    This doesn’t mean there is no place for anger at injustice, but to keep the larger picture in perspective. This means not seeing “woman” as a faceless collective, but making a serious effort to see individual women for who they are.

  193. orion says:

    What I do not understand about this whole empathy thing is this.

    Yes, I understand about the being lied to, yes, I understand about being left out, but for merely practical reasons lets say I would would feel with women, because they have been lied to too….

    Yes, but they had their party?

    Yes., but they had their pick?

    And now, that I would feel with them, I would do what?

    Wife them up?

    Sacrifice my peak so that they could eat their cake and have it too by eating mine?

    I guess what I do not understand is how any amount of empathy would make a real world difference without submission to the female narrative.

  194. Anonymous Reader says:

    Various people have commented, in various parts of the web, that many – maybe most, possible all -anglo-sphere men go through some approximation of the Kubler-Ross states of mind originallly used to describe people coming to terms with death. I’ve observed some of this in myself. Perhaps this is due to the fact that the glasses / red pill /truth about women kills a worldview. Everyone in the US has grown up with some amount of feminist thinking crammed into their heads for a couple of generations. Of the commenters on this site alone, only Anonymous Age 70 and some of the Euro-posters have even a chance of having grown up without “women are just like men except they can have babies”, “anything a man can do a woman can do – and better” , “all men are rapists and that is all they are” ,” fish / bicycle”, “men are violent and bad, women are peaceful and good”, and other such garbage jammed into their heads.

    The rest of us have to deal with the fact that we grew up swimming in an ocean of falsehoods, and the truth is often diametrically opposite what we were taught. Plus like it or not, it is what we grew up with. It is a somewhat predictable set of rules. Ugly, unjust, not in line with reality, but still – it is what we as men are used to. And the familiar – even if it is nasty , ugly, horrible – is still preferable to some degree to the unknown.This is buried pretty deeplly in the human psyche.

    For example, after the Berlin Wall came down, and the initial rush of reunification of Germany was complete, many east Germans or Ossies, found themselves experiencing a rush of emotions. The tyranny of Communist East Germany may have been a terrible oppression, but it was a known factor, and adapting to the different governmental mores of the former West Germany was traumatic to many Ossies. The older, the more difficult the transition. Another example comes to mind; from time to time, one will lread in the news media of an older man who having been released from prison for a time, commits some crime in which no one is injured, but that he has no chance of getting away with. A few of them will even admit the truth – they can’t cope with life outside, and crave the predictability of prison. It is rare, and it is an extreme example, but it happens.

    So look at the Kubler-Ross sequence, and see how many men are in the “anger” phase, or some other step of the process. Also, let’s bear in mind that as a supposed antithesis to “feminism”, many traditional, conservative groups have essentially doubled down on a fake version of Victorianism. So the traditional, conservative man is getting a doulbe whammy when he puts on the glasses – not only does he have to give up the subtler messages of feminism that really, truly do exist in all but the most cloistered of trad-con groups, but he also has to give up the bogus, lace-doily, aspartame-sweetened sentimental fantasy that was fed. Not only does he have to come to terms with the fact that no matter how much his lady fair claims she’s smart, sassy and don’t need no leading (feminism), he also has to come to terms with the fact that she really doesn’t want her feet rubbed and a perfumed bubble bath where he washes her hair oh-so-gently followed by a slow, careful, oh-so-respectful luv-making session on 1,000 thread count sheets with lace doilies on the pillow. Nope. It’s all false. She needs to be led to bed, and taken energetically, even (or especially) when she insists she does not want/ need that.

    “C’mon and kiss me, Kate”* is a violation of all the equalitarian feminist junk thought, and the “dainty-china-doll-on-a-satin-pillow” neo-Victorian junk thought. I can only imagine a man in his 20’s who grew up in the toxic modern stew of feminism, and in a church where neo-Victorianism with its pedstalization of women is the dominant culture, would be jaw-droppingly shocked to see that movie. So it should be no surprise that some men react basically with “I don’t want to know tis!”.

    In a sense, for many men,perhaps the glasses / red pill is sort of like finding out as a young man that Mommy and Daddy have had sexual intercourse not only once for each child in the family, but still do it. The funky reality is disturbing, to greater or lesser degree, and part of the initial reaction is “I wish I never learned this, I wish I could forget”. To those of a sensitive disposition, it surely seems just too, too animalistic to be true. The proper reaction can be dressed up in ethics, or theology, but basically it boils down to “Get over it!”. Ultimately, that is the response to men who gag on the red pill, or squint their eyes at the glasses.

    So to such men, one can only listen to the “what if” and “it can’t be true” for so long, before saying Get over it, already.

    *I happened upon this 1950’s musical on a movie channel last year, and was amused and amazed at how much truth about women there is in that movie – hypergamy, serial polyandry, dominance/leadership, a version of the carousel, and so forth. It would be another entry in my “Women’s Week” film festival, although I still would bookend with “The Quiet Man” and “McLintock”.

  195. Matthew says:

    I’m convinced that McLintock was John Wayne’s attempt to leave a red pill legacy for the young men of the future. It also appears to use Proverbs 31 as a template.

  196. Matthew says:

    Dalrock: “I’m not sure where we disagree here. What about the following in the OP do you disagree with?”

    C.S. Lewis wrote somewhere that (sloppily paraphrasing) the moralizing of every age is always in concert with the prevailing vice of the age. In an age of cruelty, men are warned to be wary of mercy; in an age of decadence, warned of the dangers of being judgmental.

    You are fundamentally eirenic in your character and approach. This would be worthy of praise in a different age.

  197. Dalrock says:

    @Orion

    What I do not understand about this whole empathy thing is this…

    And now, that I would feel with them, I would do what?

    Wife them up?

    Sacrifice my peak so that they could eat their cake and have it too by eating mine?

    I guess what I do not understand is how any amount of empathy would make a real world difference without submission to the female narrative.

    I’m not suggesting marrying them, and as I mentioned above I’ve been clear on this from the very first month I started blogging. What I would suggest is to differentiate between righteous anger and bitterness. Bitterness is toxic. I also suggest making an effort to distinguish between those women who are unrepentant and those who resisted the temptation or have repented. Given the focus of our society on encouraging women to feel no constraints, very large numbers of women are in the former category. Identifying the truth isn’t bitterness, it is healthy, as is righteous anger. For those who are unrepentant all we can offer is honestly calling them out, and if an opening presents itself encourage them to repent.

  198. Anonymous Reader says:

    The other source of red-pill / glasses anger, in my opinion, comes from trust that has been betrayed. Men who have, for whatever reason, taken the step to put their trust in a woman – to trust that her words are true, and that she means what she says, and that what she said was “true” yesterday she will continue to say is “true” tomorrow, and 5 years from now, and 10 years from now, etc. – those men sooner or later will feel that their trust has been betrayed. That they have been taken advantage of. That they have been cheated by a deliberate, willful, lie with malice intended. There are subcultures within the Anglosphere that teach boys and young men, “Your word is the most valuable thing you have to trade – without your word as bond, you are nothing, worthless – with your word good, you are a man of honor”. Combine that teaching with the feminist notion that “men and women are exactly the same except women can have babies”, and a man is all but certain to expect from his woman the kind demand, requirement, iron that he puts on his own words. When he says “I do” to the marriage vow, he means it. He will do his best to lover her, and cherish her, and care for her, no matter what. And he expects her to do the same.

    To a man of iron words, some shit tests don’t look like anything other than a betrayal of trust; a more extreme shit test looks just like a deliberate, willful, “in your face”, breaking of a vow. A man who strives to make his word his bond has no patience with oath-breakers. Such a man may choose to shun another man who is an oath breaker – to never speak to him, to never deal with him, to have nothing to do with him, to walk out of the room when the other comes in, etc. What is this man of iron words to do with a woman – whom he mistakenly believes to be “just like him, except she can have babies” – who seems to be a liar, a cheat, a betrayer, a vow breaker? It is a galling quandry – he took a vow that he must keep, yet she seemingly can break hers with impunity.

    Then he finds truth about women, puts on the glasses, takes the pill, choose your metaphor. He realizes that someone told him falsehoods and said they were true. Maybe not deliberately, but the sense of betrayal is going to be there anyway. And as with the other example, his world view is to some extent killed by this fact. Maybe he came to the ‘sphere looking for a way to make his woman be as she once was – his trusted right arm, who would never betray him – and now he finds that not only can she not be made back into someone he can totally trust, she never was that way at all, not even at the start of the relationship or marriage. He believed a falsehood, and made plans and built a mental structure on that falsehood. And now, instead of a trusted right arm, he instead has a half-child-half adult whom he must constantly manage using various leadership techniques, according to Game / red pill / glasses. Now he will wind up, sooner or later, questioning every other premise he has in his mind about her.

    He had assumed that her word was good, and now sees that she may just say all sorts of stuff from time to time, as part of a fitness test, up to and including things that clearly demolish “love, honor and obey”. What does this imply for all other words she has ever said? What does this imply about her ability to manage money? She says she’s careful with the household accounts, but now does the man of iron words have to look into them himself. She says she loves him, but what does that really mean? She says she is faithful to him, but her other words have been proven to be hollow, what does she really mean?

    It is, for the man of iron words, very much as if his own physical right arm began to punch him in the head at random times. Anger is a reaction that will occur. Yet he's given his word to "cherish", so taking his anger out and showing it to her is a no-go. SO he's agrny, but he cannto give himself permission to be angry with her – on the one hand, because his word inhibits him (and the underlying premise that she's "just like him" is still at work) and on the other hand, if she really is a child-adult, then being angry at her for her childishness is as foolish as being angry at a baby for spitting up. Thus the anger is tamped down. And held in. And contained. Words are eaten – he does not wish to commit the same bad behavior towards her that she does to him, he doesn't want to voice angry words to his "right arm". But he thinks them. And this will, in time, all but certainly lead to bitterness – bitter at the vow that binds him, trapping him in a clasp of iron bands, but that has no hold on her, it is like wet tissue paper. Bitterness at the one-sided nature of the relationship, where she is free to say any cruel thing – true or lie – but his own internal law of "iron words" must restrain him, no matter how painful her words and actions. Anger that cannot be voiced, again, leads to bitterness. Yet I suspect some men will have to got through that stage, as a matter of course. Because , ironically, they were raised in the older culture of men – "word is bond".

    The only cure is a deeper study of Game – the truth about women – in order that the man of iron words will come, eventually, to understand just how different women really are from men – just how different his woman is from him. When he sees that he can lead her without micromanaging her like a minimum wage employee on the job for the first day, he can come to trust her a bit more. When he sees that laying down clear guidelines – rules of iron – actually makes her more compliant, not less, then he can trust her a bit more. When he finally discovers that displaying his anger, in a controlled fashion, actually decreases her flightiness and reduces the fitness testing (that is not a betrayal, however much it looks like it), then he can relax a bit more and trust her a bit more. This is likely not a rapid process. For a man of iron words, trust damaged is not repaired quickly. Paraphrasing an old saying, "It takes a whole lot of atta-girls to make up for one "aw, heck"".

    But the illusion that he had, of a woman whose words were iron, just like his – that must die. It was never true in the first place, it was something he made up in his head. But it is still no doubt sad to give it up.

  199. Johnycomelately says:

    @ Jzb

    Most men struggle with women in their 20s, so you are definately not out of the ordinary, it’s just the process a majority of men have to go through. And don’t assume the Alpha’s path is littered with gold, plenty of Alphas are divorced and up the wazoo in child payments. You should thank your lucky stars, you discovered the red pill at a good age.

    The school of hard knocks is the best possible education a man can get.

  200. Sarah's Daughter says:

    Anonymous Reader,
    Thank you for all you have written above.
    I’d like to present the mirror image of that, what I, as a woman, experienced with the red pill. It’s been a reality years in the making but until three years ago wasn’t crystal clear. My failings, as a young child to baby boomers, was in believing adults were responsible. That they were wise and right in what they said. I believed that it was right when my parents told me it was time for them to divorce (at age six). It hurt like hell and I didn’t understand why it was right, but it had to be…didn’t it? They were adults. They knew when something was right…Right?
    So, when I woke up to my mother and a new guy getting intimate in the bedroom next to mine a few months later, this was right too…wasn’t it? They were adults. They tell me, a very young child, what is right and what is wrong and they’re right…aren’t they? And when that guy didn’t work out, that was right…wasn’t it? And on my father’s end, when woman after woman came into his life and left just as quickly, that was right…wasn’t it? When my mother married again and we had a combined family, it was right for me to love my new family…wasn’t it. And when it was time for them to divorce…that was right too…wasn’t it?
    When my mother told me not to get hung up on a boy, that there are plenty of fish in the sea, to not get too serious, this was right…wasn’t it? When my father told me I needed to get a job at the age of 13 so I could begin to pay my own way, this was right…wasn’t it? When he talked to me about my career aspirations and college choices, it was right for me to be charting my own course…wasn’t it?
    So, when I got married and we encountered our first challenges…it was right to want to bail…wasn’t it?
    Having come to understand how wrong those parents were left me with two options. Hate and bitterness or an all encompassing desire to boldly profess the truth so that others will not be deceived. Learning the truth of my own nature, that same truth that men are learning as they accept the red pill, has been…right. It’s been freeing, liberating and peaceful. I am so thankful to no longer be confused. I have had a hunger to dig deeper and attempt to figure out how those parents of mine went so wrong. The red pill has delivered to me a need to cleave to my Creator. To abide in His word, for He is the only one who is right. It has given me such a vast appreciation for my husband’s nature that is so uniquely different than my own – Thank God! I have found a calm. A pleasant reprieve from the storm. The lies have been forgiven. The only option is to walk on.

  201. Höllenhund says:

    How often do you see a man take the red pill and then sign up for Marriage 2.0?

  202. Opus says:

    What a moving post from Sarah’s Daughter, and how uncanny that it mirrors my previous post where I refer to the liberal meme, ‘that if it feels right (always of course between consenting adults) it must be right’. I was not a recipient of parental Divorce but was packed off to Boarding-School at a young age so I am familiar with the ‘I know my parents love me so this must be good for me and right, so why does it hurt do much?’.

    I would like to suggest that the reason for the Red-Pill bitterness is that most men do not want to treat women as if all women are all false-rape-accusing, ball-busting, privileged-yet-useless and lazy sluts, yet that is perhaps the most prudent approach to take, and to get ones attack in first as pre-emptive protection. Women, it was suggested, were virtuous maidens just waiting to find their Mr D’Arcy and only too keen to cling on to any decent man who was up and coming in the world and their goal in life was a husband and children and any such man would do better both in the longer and shorter term than his bachelor counterpart. Such a scenario bears little resemblance to anything I have ever known. One cuts ones coat according to the available cloth. This will only change when women en-masse return to shaming their sisters (and I can recall a time when this still happened) rather than high-fiving careerism and concommitent slutdom.

    Sadly there are any number of women like the Duke Lacrosse beneficiary (I knew a woman who having ended up at the end of the night with two guys shagged first one and then the other and seemed proud of this achievement) who genuinely think that shagging the entire team of jocks demonstrates their desirability and what is even more amazing is that many women seem to agree. This is the world in which we live.

  203. Ton says:

    Dalrock, from what I can tell, you are ok with anger tempered, I think the nice guy approach is dead wrong. The more women of all stripes suffer, the sooner they suffer, the worse the consequence, the more men rage the sooner injustices will be approached. The “quality” women, who are either to
    rare to count in double digits or don’t speak out need to feel men’s collective wrath for their silence. They are already on Team Woman by default of their silence

    Bitterness is soul destroying, anger lends power to a man’s words and actions as well as scares women/ gives them the tingles. We will not end these injustices with words or even marriage strikes. The bullshit will end one of two ways #1 because we crush the ideas or we as a people are replaced by foreign folks who have not bought into it. Right now my money is on we will be replaced

    The nice guy way lead too what we have and will not set things straight. I do respect you and the other nice guys in the world but you are wrong in this. As a rough example, the wars in iraq and a-stan have accomplished nothing mostly because of the soft hearted approach and stupid objectives. That way never wins.

  204. greyghost says:

    Ton
    You are right. You see that a change must be made in society. That is a warriors place and this is not a warriors blog. Think of Dalrock as a place to go to keep your head clear as to what you are fighting for. Dalrock will never change society in a radical way but it does influence the herd in a good way.

  205. infowarrior1 says:

    @Orion

    Our job is to call them to repentance. But vengeance you leave to the lord:

    Deuteronomy 32:35
    Vengeance is mine, and recompense, for the time when their foot shall slip; for the day of their calamity is at hand, and their doom comes swiftly.’

    Romans 12:19

    Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,” says the Lord.

  206. Ton says:

    I understand that GG. I do in fact respect Dalrock and men like him, and understand the limited usefulness of my kind of thinking/ nature. I also understand when no other kind of thinking is going to work

    By the by, I am related to the Grey Ghost

  207. The other source of red-pill / glasses anger, in my opinion, comes from trust that has been betrayed.

    Absolutely. One of the worst lies is the one that says women are more trustworthy than men. I think many a man goes into marriage thinking that he’s more likely to cheat than his wife is — even if he takes his vows seriously and has no intention of cheating! He can’t imagine that his blushing bride — even if he knows she’s far from virginal — has thoughts just as twisted as his own. The idea that women will lie and cheat about important matters just as easily as men will is hard to take. Then to find out that they’ll lie and cheat even more easily than men (being true to their emotions, not to their word) is an even harder blow.

    It’s one thing to find out that something you believed wasn’t true. It’s another thing to find out it was the opposite of the truth, and that the people who taught you the lie should have known better, and that the truth was out there all over in places you were trained not to see it (in the parts of the Bible no one ever quoted to you, or in old movies, for example). You see a similar reaction in other areas: someone who has been eating the government’s recommended diet of cattle feed and winds up ill and obese can get pretty angry when he finds out the whole thing was a lie invented 40-50 years ago by people who should have known better, and the real truth was out there in folk wisdom and books written before 1970, if he’d only known to look for them.

    The problem is that righteous anger != bitterness. Righteous anger inspires you to seek out and administer justice, to make right what went wrong. Even if fixing things isn’t possible, wanting to fix them and knowing what “fixed” would look like gives you an outlet for it. Bitterness isn’t about fixing anything; it’s just about feeling anger and wallowing in it. Bitterness eats at you and hurts you, possibly dragging you down in other areas of your life. No one wants a bitter co-worker, even if they don’t know what he’s bitter about. (Bitterness also strikes me as a female trait, for what it’s worth. A man wants to fix problems, not wallow in them for the strong emotions they invoke.)

  208. Miserman says:

    Bitterness is merely a chunk of raw iron ore brutally thrown like a stone to kill. Anger is that iron ore refined into a sharp steel, precise and restrained until needed, wielded with skill and honor.

  209. Nancy Drew says:

    I’ve agonised over posting here.

    I’ve been treated with nothing but courtesy from the men here, thank you.

    But elsewhere on the Internet my experience has been truly awful. I’ve been called a feminazi slut. Just for being female. I am a Bible-believing Christian women who saved herself for her husband and thinks that any worldview that does not place Christ at its center is a form of idolatry.

  210. Spacetraveller says:

    Thank you for this post, Dalrock.
    Not to flatter you, but you seem like a kind sort of man.
    Your particular brand of (masculine) leadership is exactly what I think the SMP needs right now, although I also see other people’s (differing) points of view.

    At my most ‘geeky’, I once tried to seek out what I believed might be the highest order of womanhood. As a catholic woman, it was not hard to do, as I have a good Template in Our Lady. But I did find interesting examples nonetheless.

    I also tried to seek out what the highest order of manhood would look like, speaking in purely human terms (therefore ‘Jesus’ is excluded as a paragon in this sense, as he is fully God – in addition to being fully human).

    In my search, I fell upon the work of this psychologist.
    His vivid descriptions of ‘initiation’ grabbed my attention and changed my view on men forever.
    Perhaps much of what you say, and the points a lot of commenters make here are reminiscent of this man’s experiences dealing with his male patients/clients:

    http://www.christoscenter.com/initiation.html
    Perhaps it will be of help to someone here.

    To the man upthread who despaired at his inability to recognise/diagnose ‘virginity’ as he was ‘gynaecologically untrained’, I would like to say that modern gynaecologists might smile wistfully at his exasperation, and say to him: ‘Join the club’ :-)

    My cousin is a gynaecologist of 10 years’ standing, and even she has not seen a virgin in a while.
    My guess is that there are 2 main reasons for my cousin’s ‘problem’.
    The first is that as the age of first ‘activity’ falls ever lower, by the time a girl or woman sees a gynaecologist, she is no longer virginal.
    The other reason is that a virgin might avoid a gynaecologist at all cost, (especially if one has to pay) because (she believes, often erroneously) she doesn’t need one.

    In any case, along with paternity testing, ‘virginity testing’ is also now illegal, I hear…
    I am pretty sure it is still practised in some circles though (for example, royal brides – I am sure up to and including Princess Diana – would have been ‘examined’ by a royal gynaecologist pre-marriage), but most gynaecologists now will not do it, except if they are instructed by a court in a criminal case, in which case it would be in the domain of a forensic gynaecologist.
    Just as well, perhaps, because as I explain above, they are increasingly losing this part of their professional skill anyway.

  211. krauserpua says:

    I’d like a Dalrock post on the meta-impact holding Christian belief has on bitterness. I don’t mean “what does God say”, rather that Christianity is a moral code / world view that provides a map of how the world ought to look and how people ought to behave. It’s something your ego can get invested in and then you point at divergencies to say “this is morally wrong”, and all the self-righteous indignation that comes with it. Bitterness doesn’t come from hard conditions. It comes from a sense of injustice and for that you need a picture of “ought to be”.

    Compare this to Rollo who very consciously tries to strip all of the “ought” away to better percieve the “is”. By perceiving only the “is” there is no divergence from an “ought” to get bitter about.

    My guess is that adherence to Christianity is making a rod for your own back in this area. You can’t remove the moralism and thus its a much longer harder road to remove the bitterness over a fallen world. I think it’s doing a service to Christian men to excavate these dynamics to better anticipate their feelings during the unplugging process.

    * This isn’t an atheist rant. Every man needs his code. I’m just interested in how that code reverberates. If anyone can break it down, it’s Dalrock.

  212. Novaseeker says:

    @Space —

    Re the link, the people who have written that describe themselves as follows on the main page:

    This Center started in 1993 to promote a dialogue among men to explore a new model of manhood in Western, post-industrial society. This dialogue is based on the assumption that the old, patriarchal model of manhood no longer works for men.

    I don’t think there will be that many takers for that kind of approach here. Certainly the Goddess talk in that link seems bordering on heresy, if not outright heretical.

  213. Novaseeker says:

    My guess is that adherence to Christianity is making a rod for your own back in this area. You can’t remove the moralism and thus its a much longer harder road to remove the bitterness over a fallen world. I think it’s doing a service to Christian men to excavate these dynamics to better anticipate their feelings during the unplugging process.

    It can do, certainly, but ought (there is that word, again) not do.

    For Christians, the most obvious example of this is Christ himself. Into the fallen world he comes, and the world treats him like crap, reviles him, and puts him to death. Yet he is not bitter about the “incongruity” between what should be and what is. He loves the world as it is, and at the same time calls it to become better than it is through repentance. That is the dual message of Christ — love and call to repentance. Christians of all stripes tend to get caught up in one or the other of that dual dynamic. That is, either make the religion all about love and compassion, with calls to repentance being seen as “judgmental” (never mind that Christ did it incessantly), or make the religion about repentance and calls to behave morally without really love being expressed in any significant or compassionate way. The former leads to wishy-washy mainstream Protestantism and a breakdown in moral rules. The latter leads to a kind of cold moralism, which can lead to self-righteousness and an attitude of contempt towards “the world” at large, rather than an attitude of love.

    Both of these polar approaches, which together characterize much of Christian expression currently in the West, err. The challenge for a Christian is to embrace both — that is love for the world (real love, compassionate love, not only “tough love”, but also empathetic love) knowing full well its foibles and flaws and immorality, yet at the same time having the courage to call it to repentance in the midst of that love which gives such a call credibility and removes it from the spirit of self-righteousness and, potentially, bitterness. The key to this, of course, is humility. Someone working from a humble point of view will see the fallen-ness and sin in himself as well as the rest of the world, and see a commonality there, which gives rise to compassion, empathy and a sense of solidarity, rather than a sense of moral superiority, smugness and alienation from the world at large that we see in some Christians. At the same time, because such a person is well aware of his own sin, and that of the world around him, he calls himself to repentance first, and then the world at large, at the same time, knowing that both he and the world are in need of the same medicine, so to speak. It is from this perspective and action — humility and repentance in the individual which create an attitude of solidarity with a sinful world, rather than an attitude of alienation from it — which characterize a more holistic Christian approach to “the world”, and one which embraces both the kind of love Christ emphasized while always linking this with the repentance he demanded at the same time.

    Now, this is not easy. It’s not complicated, but it isn’t easy to do, because our own human failings get in the way from actually experiencing this kind of humility much of the time. Pride is a main cuplrit here, but there are others as well, fear prominent among them. So Christians tend to veer either into the “love and compassion” camp or the “I am not a heathen like you!” camp, neither of which is really holistically Christian. If you can transcend this problem, you can become a better Christian, and also avoid becoming bitter about the injustices of the world as a whole because you realize your solidarity with that world, your role in the web of sin in which it finds itself, and have compassion and empathy with people in their struggles (not in their sins, but in their struggles with sin). Christ was not bitter, and a Christian should not be bitter, either. We are told that Christians are to be characterized by their joy, and certainly not by bitterness. But that is a joy that is founded on the joining together of love and repentance in the spirit of humility — if you can manage that, even part of the time, it can help lead you away from bitterness.

  214. Farm Boy says:

    It seems that women are operating on the reputation that they gained when they were taught to be “sugar and spice and everything nice”. Why does it take so long to get the word out that things have changed?

  215. Farm Boy says:

    Realizing that positive personality traits don’t turn men on

    I look for them. Who wants to marry a bitch?

  216. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    There’s no “post masculine” nor “post feminine” discussion and culture in the West outside of academic circles and certain media avenues. Now that Christianity has been corrupted and most of it is dying (and the dead parts trying to take what is living down with it) there are two major strains happening now:

    1 – Reversion to barbarism and other pre-agricultural norms from the stone age.

    2 – Reversion to mildly agricultural paganism.

    Most people would rather watch pagan male demi gods on television (e.g. The Avengers), which is almost like the 2nd strain above. And since the media is breaking into smaller spaces, people can be a bit insulated but not totally, from other more horrible things. And create their own comic books.

    But even this option is being attacked as “offensive”, hateful and other stuff.

  217. Random Angeleno says:

    @krauserpua … there’s no room in Christianity for bitterness, unless it is at one’s own poor conduct. On the other hand, there is room for anger, rebuke, calls to repentance, questioning, and so on, all done from a place of love. All of which we should be doing with sluts, among others.

  218. Elle says:

    Coming out of lurkdom to say that this is a great post. I’ve noticed bitterness from men, not just online but in their face to face interactions with women. I’d been chalking this bitterness up to simply not being able to have sex, but now I see that it goes deeper than that. I hope that men are able to move past bitterness and in to a healthier mental space.

  219. Spacetraveller says:

    @ Novaseeker,

    Yes he does use the deity analogy a lot in his articles.

    But the point of all that ‘Goddess’ talk is that these are false goddesses that the man creates in his own mind – aka over-pedestalising of women who do not yet warrant such an action from him – perhaps induced to do so by his upbringing. And then at some point in time, he comes to the realisation that what he was taught was somewhat inaccurate. His reaction to this upheaval in his life is likened to the ‘initiation rites’ of old…which were similarly brutal to a young boy, and of course designed to take him out of his comfort-zone.
    In effect, he is describing what happens when a man takes ‘the red pill’.
    This is why Dalrock’s post reminds me of his work.

    His reference to Patriarchy is to argue that sometimes, the Patriarchy punishes its own sons, and gives several examples illustrating this.
    Again reminiscent of men here commenting that not only have they been failed by feminist society, but by their fathers too.

    I found it enlightening because however it is viewed in terms of authenticity, it is still one man’s view on other men’s plight. To me, that is authentic enough.

  220. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    If people around here are talking about virginity in women, most female virgins I think have more self-control, have less of a female hamster and hence more masculine in nature (which leads to some form of chastity unconsciously). But masculine women aren’t typical of the female sex. Most of them just grow up outside of the female hierarchy and become wanderers.

    The popular culture though, stereotypes masculine women as slutty, which is true in some cases, but in other cases untrue. The stereotype of masculine women being direct and asocial (bordering on rude) is true. The stereotype of them being promiscuous and sex crazed is often untrue. The stereotype of masculine women being solipsistic is wrong (they don’t care about themselves that much).

    I don’t think people should throw out the standard of virginity and chastity out, but most women nowadays are just following their hamsters and since masculine women are exceptional/rare, you won’t see a lot of female virgins (or low count single digits women).

    That’s not anti-virginity talk, that’s just the real world is.

    I think instead of getting angry and frustrated at the female sex forevermore (aka being bitter forever), just drop out and go your own way with a state of being content, calm and happy.

    I think the solutions should be trying to get the masculine and the feminine to dance with one another (instead of being reductionist), with the male leading, and supporting both fathers and mothers in the household (contrary to the Anglo-British industrial revolution which divorced labour from household) with things such as small/moderate home businesses, homeschooling and importance on both nuclear and extended families and their communities.

    An article about this –> http://traditionalchristianity.wordpress.com/2013/01/23/gender-roles-industrial-model-vs-modern-model-neither/

    But I think you guys should concentrate on how to stop female hamsters infesting male spaces, alongside political correctness, and other stuff. Some of them are already screaming hatred. And I am repeating this to death, but stay away from and reject all forms of Anglo Puritan chivalry. It’s poison.

  221. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    And I don’t think these specific betas are getting hammered that much anymore (like the past). Since autism and other conditions are on the rise, I’m pretty sure that these specific betas are finding other women like them.

  222. Farm Boy says:

    I’d been chalking this bitterness up to simply not being able to have sex, but now I see that it goes deeper than that.

    Women think of guys as these automated sex oriented machines that just ripe for exploitation. In reality, there is much more. I suppose Team Women must keep their models simple, lest their minions be overwhelmed.

  223. anonymous says:

    Now that Christianity has been corrupted and most of it is dying (and the dead parts trying to take what is living down with it) there are two major strains happening now:
    1 – Reversion to barbarism and other pre-agricultural norms from the stone age.
    2 – Reversion to mildly agricultural paganism.

    “I sometimes wonder whether we shall not have to re-convert men to real Paganism as a preliminary to converting them to Christianity. If they were Stoics, Orphics, Mithraists, or (better still) peasants worshipping the Earth, our task might be easier.” — CS Lewis

    “When grave persons express their fear that England is relapsing into Paganism, I am tempted to reply, ‘Would that she were.’ For I do not think it at all likely that we shall ever see Parliament opened by the slaughtering of a garlanded white bull in the House of Lords or Cabinet Ministers leaving sandwiches in Hyde Park as an offering for the Dryads. If such a state of affairs came about, then the Christian apologist would have something to work on. For a Pagan, as history shows, is a man eminently convertible to Christianity. He is essentially the pre-Christian, or sub-Christian, religious man. The post-Christian man of our day differs from him as much as a divorcée differs from a virgin.” — CS Lewis

    A divorcee… or a well ridden alpha widow…

  224. GKChesteron says:

    Don’t have time to read all the posts Dalrock but I do want to say this is brilliantly done. One quick comment though before I jump out. “Romance” is preserved by proper red pill. Women are different. Romance thrives on difference. Romance does not thrive on confusion (she’s just like me but…well…different so I have to buy her drinks!).

    I also think you are right in one of the comments you read here about pointing out the correct path to women. It just takes patience and frame. Most will listen. If they don’t, their genes and their culture dies with them which is no net loss.

  225. Opus says:

    It is certainly interesting that Elle, who I see as not unsympathetic, should at first have seen the ‘bitterness’ as merely a failure to have sex. That is perhaps an inevitable female viewpoint, strange as it must seem to most men – let us not forget that Krauser sometimes comments here! Many of the women who have come here and elsewhere on the Androsphere might be assumed to have the same view as Elle had, with their ‘you are all a bunch of losers with small penises’ in other words flaunting their sexual power. For myself sex or lack thereof is entirely immaterial to such concerns that I have as to the treatment of men as much by white-knighting men as well as by women themselves. It may pay us to keep this in mind when reading acerbic comments by women – that they have fundamentally misunderstood our purposes.

  226. Farm Boy says:

    Many of the women who have come here and elsewhere on the Androsphere might be assumed to have the same view as Elle had, with their ‘you are all a bunch of losers with small penises’ in other words flaunting their sexual power

    Sugar and spice and everything nice

  227. donalgraeme says:

    @ opus

    “It may pay us to keep this in mind when reading acerbic comments by women – that they have fundamentally misunderstood our purposes.”

    Even though we know that men and women are very different creatures, and think in very different ways, it is still easy for those of us in this part of the web to forget that fact when such comments appear.

  228. Höllenhund says:

    “It may pay us to keep this in mind when reading acerbic comments by women – that they have fundamentally misunderstood our purposes.”

    I have a better idea: don’t give a damn about acerbic comments by women.

  229. Matt says:

    @Elle
    “I’d been chalking this bitterness up to simply not being able to have sex … ”
    This is something I really never understood. While men do get a bit irritated if we don’t get sex for a while, we don’t become permanently bitter. I do not understand why women always seem to believe that any man who’s got a problem can be “fixed” by having more sex.

    I’m starting to think that women think about sex more often than men do and so frame their every interaction with us by way of it. If women genuinely feel that there’s nothing to men past “Get Laid”, then they really have no idea what real men actually are or what we do. Which might be the cause of most of the problem we now face.

  230. Höllenhund says:

    “This is something I really never understood.”

    Two words: shaming language.

  231. Solomon says:

    @Krauser

    I think what you are inquiring about is whether being a person who believes in God or loves Jesus, does that actively help a person make peace and not be bitter?

    As far as that goes, let me say this- for those of us who subscribe to that faith, our hope in the afterlife gives us a different perspective on this one. It’s ok if we take losses. It’s ok if we hit trainwreck after trainwreck, or even withstand grievous betrayals, because this is a quick, temporary place, and God is with us in suffering to inspire us to persevere.

    On the other hand, if a guy does not believe in the afterlife at all, and this is all there is, than every setback is a disaster, and setbacks like getting played by a girl or wife is truly devastating. The guys who takes the red-pill only to realize they have squandered the last 20 years or the best years of their life on ruining themselves because of lies they should have spotted (it does hide right in plain sight) and so they might weep far more bitterly at the loss of those precious years.

    Anyone who loves Jesus but hates women or is bitter towards them or bitter towards the whole of feminism etc… is not getting it right. That’s part of the point in trusting in God, that it sets you free from having to agonize every failure or loss or enemy.

    There is no need for a Christian to be bitter as far as the fallen state of the world. God said it would be this way, promises that He has his reasons, and provides immediate comfort and eternal paradise even to those with a sorry lot in mortal life. It’s an exceptionally good deal, no matter how rotten the world is. Nothing to be bitter about.

    To me the bigger problem for a single/divorced Christian guy today is the conflict between “no sex outside of marriage” as taught by the bible, and “no rings for sluts” or other vehement advice not to marry at all.

    If Christian guys are bitter, this may be more the source. All we wanted to do was invest in our sweet little snowflake and have this glorious union… and instead we end up tricked, scorned and mocked for it, and find ourselves in calamities and even strange beds, instead.

    I do not think red-pill Christian guys should be bitter not only for the peace that we should possess through trusting in God… but because the bible offers a clear red-pill road map on how to beat this and actually be able to invest in a girl! The bible is staunchly red-pill, and in addition, any red-pill guy today has extensive further resources in the manosphere to find the understanding his father never gave him, which he should also be stoked about.

    For those who would weep bitterly at the lost years, King Solomon once wrote: “for what is a man’s life, but a wisp of vapor, that appears for a moment and then vanishes away?”

    Let’s not assign too damn much importance to every little thing in life or every injustice. Let’s just love God, try to be decent, be thankful, and press on. Life is far too short for bitterness.

  232. Opus says:

    Matt put it better than me. Women frequently really do seem to think that sex is the only thing men think about, which is a case of projection for I long ago came to the conclusion that it is women who think about little else – there sex-dar is always on, though set at a lowish level, which I suspect is why women make such unfounded, unfair and outrageous allegations of sexual impropriety by men, and why even male thoughtfulness is seen as attemoted Rape (Elevatorgate for instance). Consider the recent Donglegate – Adria Richards assumed that a Big Dongle had to be something sexual – which it wasn’t. Worse still her outrage was caused by her own evesdropping.

  233. @Krauser et. al. My approach has always been to shake the ghosts out of the machine to better understand the machine. That doesn’t mean the ghosts aren’t important, or even influential, parts of the machine, it’s just that it’s necessary to separate them from the machinations to see how the machine came to be.

  234. Ton says:

    I wonder how popular the Stoics are with red-pill men, and mgtow. Meditations is #2 on my must have books list

  235. anonymous says:

    Women frequently really do seem to think that sex is the only thing men think about, which is a case of projection…it is women who think about little else – there sex-dar is always on,

    You’ve been hanging out at Morticia’s or TC or the late lamented SSM’s too much.

    Unfortunately, NAWALT!

  236. Lovekraft says:

    Nancy Drew wrote: “But elsewhere on the Internet my experience has been truly awful. I’ve been called a feminazi slut. Just for being female. I am a Bible-believing Christian women who saved herself for her husband and thinks that any worldview that does not place Christ at its center is a form of idolatry.”

    This link ties into your issue. http://victorygirlsblog.com/?p=10155

    Shaming by progressives is nothing new to the Free Thinker. It helps to familiarize yourself with standard logical fallacies in order to be able to defend against their insults/charges.

  237. Lovekraft says:

    Madonna (the singer) has been ridiculed and discredited. Her clone GaGa is relevant only to the delusional. Rosie O’Donnell is hiding under a rock somewhere. The list goes on.

    Meanwhile, media is presenting shows like “Real Housewives” “Princess” “Till Debt do us Part” which lift the veil off female nature. Political correctness allowed feminism to remain free from scrutiny. But that day is over.

    BTW, check out comedian Bill Burr. Youtube him, find his stand-up special. Worth the effort.

  238. eon says:

    I could have Red Pill Empathy for a woman who said: “I love you but I am not in love with you, because my gina tingles and my hamster have commanded me to leave you for someone else. This is my decision, so you don’t owe me anything further, and I want you to keep the house, the car, and especially the children, because I know how much they need their father. All that I ask is that I be allowed to spend as much time as I want with therm, here.”

    Unfortunately, many women enjoy hurting men, and I have yet to meet one, in real life, who thought that not hurting men was important (had empathy for them).

  239. Opus says:

    Ah the shaming language, so I am sorry to disappoint anonymous that I was not aware of Morticias blog, have no idea who TC is and only occasionally visited Sunshine Mary’s. As I said it was a view I have long held, and I also hold that actually AWALT – though I will of course make an exception in the case of yet another female anonymous. Even on the day she died my mother was concerned that as her leg had swollen up she would no longer be attractive to men – and that was in her ninety first year!

  240. hurting says:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/23/red-pill-bitterness/#comment-76410

    eon…

    It is the hamster who concocts the series of faulty justifications to allow her rationalize nuking the family and all around it in pursuit of her happiness. Women generally can not understand the idea that even if divorce benefits them (and whether it truly does remains open to debate), it involves a net loss in wellbeing to the family as a whole. Put another way the increase in happiness she realizes is, in most cases, far more than offset by the decline for everybody else, especially the children.

    Many, many women do not believe that their children need their fathers at all except perhaps as a source of revenue to the household and a mule to deploy in the servitude of the occupants thereof, namely the matriarch.

    What you describe is indeed what frivorcing women expect their husbands to do (drop out of sight except to care for the kids as and when she decides and continue to materially support her in her lifestyle).

  241. anonymous says:

    Ah the shaming language

    Dude, I was joking! Not shaming. Go read it again…. if you get the joke you’ll laugh.

    As I said it was a view I have long held, and I also hold that actually AWALT – though I will of course make an exception in the case of yet another female anonymous

    ?? ? I’m male….straight…married…father of 3.

  242. anonymous says:

    Even on the day she died my mother was concerned that as her leg had swollen up she would no longer be attractive to men – and that was in her ninety first year!

    LOL! My mom, dying of cancer at age 91, brazenly flirted with 20-something physical therapists! Though I’m not sure she realized she was doing it. FWIW, Dad had been dead about 20 years by that time…) My wife and I thought it was hilarous.

  243. Johnycomelately says:

    I respect Krauser and Rollo’s work as its a place where, “Pretty lies perish,” but to give preeminence to the baser natures of humanity is to cast man as an animal and nothing more.

    If its the case of, “If you can’t beat them join them,” I’d rather go down the path of Isaiah and get sawn in half.

    The social inertia is too momentous to change mid step, so men are left with a stark choice, either join them or stand resolutely against them. Problem is not all men are cut of that cloth, hence the bitterness.

  244. eon says:

    hurting,

    What keeps me from having Red Pill Empathy for women is their basic lack of empathy for men.

    There are various plausible explanations (for example, Evolutionary Psychology) for behaviors that seem to be “wired” into women. I can empathize with these biological / psychological pressures that women seem to experience, so I am not angry or bitter that they often succumb to what may not be quite within their control.

    In fact, all else being equal, I would enjoy protecting and supporting women, and guiding them to avoid the painful insanities that pervade their lives.

    But all else is not equal, and because they do not seem to be able to actually care, or to feel anything in a way that can form real connections and bonds, they seem to be more empty than flawed. While I am not angry or bitter, I am also indifferent rather than empathetic, because empathy requires an equivalent being, on the other side, instead of a resource gathering and replication robot.

  245. 8oxer says:

    My cousin is a gynaecologist of 10 years’ standing, and even she has not seen a virgin in a while.

    Young women are encouraged, when they reach university, to “de-virginize” themselves. They are taught that this is a way of self-exploration, and it is also suggested that men will like them better (they will, if we’re talking pump and dump, not so much for marriage) if they are not physical virgins. Women’s studies classes and free workshops feature and teach proper use of sex toys for this purpose. This happens at the local campuses and I doubt it is restricted to my area. It seems like a fairly uniform curriculum.

    So, even if you do find a virgin (i.e. never had a boyfriend) you’re not very likely to find a physical virgin with an intact hymen in modern North America.

  246. Well it looks as if the pushback is beginning in earnest now.

    Take a look at the following sermon done in a church in California.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l7WLcjfhi4U

    The guys responsible for this is given his marching orders.
    http://advindicate.com/?p=3029

    Add to this the Adria Richards story and one can surmise that the Misandry Bubble is holding good on its promise.

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  248. LisainVermont says:

    Boxer,
    “So, even if you do find a virgin (i.e. never had a boyfriend) you’re not very likely to find a physical virgin with an intact hymen in modern North America.”

    A lack of an intact hymen isn’t proof that a woman isn’t a virgin. I waited until my wedding night to be intimate and my ob-gyn told me during my premaritial checkup that my hymen was partially intact. She said it was rare for a woman in her mid 20s to have an intact hymen b/c they are often broken during sports or accidents.

    A better test might be to take the time to know a woman, her world view her interactions with others, and her friends. You can usually tell a lot about a woman from her friends.

  249. Novaseeker says:

    But all else is not equal, and because they do not seem to be able to actually care, or to feel anything in a way that can form real connections and bonds, they seem to be more empty than flawed. While I am not angry or bitter, I am also indifferent rather than empathetic, because empathy requires an equivalent being, on the other side, instead of a resource gathering and replication robot.

    See, that’s where things are taken to a reductionist extreme.

    Women are not robots. They are not automatons who must follow their fallenness and are incapable of not doing so.

    It may LOOK like that because women are not held to account today for anything they do by our cultural and social institutions — they are instead supported no matter what they do. This is a part of an attempt to overcompensate for past perceived wrongs against women as a class, and is a part of the ideology of feminism which portrays women, paradoxically, as both perpetual victims of male oppression and at the same time victoriously triumphant over men and gleefully proclaiming that the end of men is nigh. It’s a false ideology, but that’s beside the point. The point is that women are not held to account, so they feel more free to indulge their more base aspects, and so many do — humans being humans, when you take away accountability, many humans, perhaps most humans, behave like absolute shits, regardless of sex (examples of this are internet forums and driving). In a social context where women are basically given social license and held to account for nothing, many of them will behave like absolute shits. Not because they are women, but because they are humans, and humans generally do poorly in accountability-free situations.

    So in light of that we see a lot of women behaving badly. We should expect that. Many of them are beyond any kind of redemption, probably. We don’t know that, but it can look like that from our perspective. But, but … there are also quite a few who are not. There are women who are the resisters of this to some degree or other, in many cases because they come from family environments were there was/is some degree of accountability, and it is therefore socially wired into them. They may be hard to find in this culture, but they do exist. Saying that women are robots really denies the existence of the contra model to the majority, and really doesn’t reflect reality, which is what the red pill invites us to embrace.

    Yes, it can be hard to find such women. Yes, if you want to find a woman who is both like that AND hot you’d best (1) get the relationship when she is rather young (women who have both of those qualities are taken off the market very early) and (2) be very attractive yourself. On the other hand, you can ratchet the ‘hot’ down somewhat and look elsewhere. There are plenty of women, and there are quite a few who do not behave according to the paradigm — they just can be difficult to find. But that doesn’t justify tarring the entirety of the female sex as robots or automatons. They have the same choices to make morally as we do, although the challenges they face are different from ours. We happen to live at a time when female libertinism is a primary cultural value, while male freedom of action, for most men at least, is viewed with great suspicion. It’s very imbalanced, I very much agree. And women are acting out, as we would expect them to. But they aren’t robots. They are humans who are faced with certain temptations to sin, which are different from ours, and they are unfortunately living in a culture that is ridiculously indulgent of the sins of their sex – so very many of them are indulging in these sins to one degree or another. This means they are sinners, it doesn’t mean they are robots. They can be better — they have moral agency.

  250. anonymous says:

    So, even if you do find a virgin (i.e. never had a [fornicating] boyfriend) you’re not very likely to find a physical virgin with an intact hymen in modern North America

    …and of course, there’s no way to tell whether that hymen was done in by a dildo, or the first of her 37 boyfriends.

  251. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    She said it was rare for a woman in her mid 20s to have an intact hymen b/c they are often broken during sports or accidents.

    And who encourages women into such activities again? Tsk, tsk…

  252. alcestiseshtemoa says:

    Don’t they have Title IX for college sports? And even Olympian sports?

  253. greyghost says:

    Anonymous
    Not all pussies are like that. That stretched out hole and jaded personality was from playing youth soccer. Other than that I’m pretty much the virgin you were looking for.

  254. Anonymous Reader says:

    Cail Corishev
    The problem is that righteous anger != bitterness. Righteous anger inspires you to seek out and administer justice, to make right what went wrong. Even if fixing things isn’t possible, wanting to fix them and knowing what “fixed” would look like gives you an outlet for it. Bitterness isn’t about fixing anything; it’s just about feeling anger and wallowing in it.

    Perhaps you should have read my entire posting in detail. A man can be angry in his LTR / marriage, and have some idea what “fixed” would look like, yet see no way to honorably let that anger out. One does not punish an infant for a diaper blowout, and it is possible to “either-or” women into “either” they are adults who know what they are doing “or” they are childish creatures who have not a clue. That puts a man into a box; either his woman is malicious, cruel and cannot be trusted, or she is helpless, brainless, and cannot be trusted. Note this false dichotomy: anger is not going to work in either case. Admitting one is on the horns of a dilemma does not stop the anger, and in fact can very well make it more intense, because the one-sidedness of his situation becomes yet another source of anger. This is not wallowing in anger, so much as drowning in it.

    There is also the deeply buried, smoldering anger. Think of a pool of magma that is beneath the ground. There is no clue it is there, except that once in a while the ground gets a little hot for no explainable reason. it does not cool, nor does it vent, it simply remains, a body of molten rock, melting everything around it gradually. Anger that cannot be expressed, that cannot be dismissed, does not go away, Cail.

    So far as I can tell, there are few ways out of this situation besides Game. And some men may stew in their own anger, unable to deploy it, unable to stop it, unable to get rid of it, for some time. In that direction lies some general bitterness; the source of the anger is present in his life because he is honor bound to keep his promise, he can’t make the behavior stop, thus the anger continues, he’s drowning in it, he can’t get away from it easily, either. I have no idea how many men are silently simmering in their own, unventable, anger but I believe it is definitely not zero.

    And that, in terms of the OP, is my point, Cail.. Calling such men names, or implying that they are somehow acting “feminine” may be entertaining in some way, but it won’t help them much, aside from offering them another direction for their anger to go…

  255. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock, once again I’ve failed to close an italic. Perhaps I need more caffeine. Apologies.

    [D: No problem. Hopefully I closed it where you intended.]

  256. greenlander says:

    It’s shocking to me that wordpress doesn’t have a “preview” feature for a post. I’ve messed up so many tags just like you…

  257. Farm Boy says:

    What keeps me from having Red Pill Empathy for women is their basic lack of empathy for men.

    Why is it that they have so little empathy? I was always taught that women were more empathetic. Perhaps that is only with proper training.

  258. lzozoozloz

    Many of you are noticing reality, taking the red pill.

    But the bigger questions is “Why?”

    Why was the moral code of honor for women deconstructed and done away with?

    Simple.

    The less a woman follows the Biblical story and serves a man, the more she can serve the bankers and corporations.

    This is why women are desouled early and often, with lostatss cockas in da bungghozlizozozizzozozlzozlzlzlzozlzo.

    The Bible presents a moral code of honor wherein both men and women rise above their aminalistic tendencies to serve their butt and gina tingaleleozozo over god and family.

    Now please note, while the moral code applies to both men and women, men were the ones who did create it and enforce it. Throughout civilization, a woman’s sexuality was controlled by a an–first her father, and then her husband. In return for this, she was granted the highest honors–she was loved and served and honored, as she lived out the story of wife, mother, and grandmother.

    This beautiful story was deconstructed to profit the few at the expense of the many.

    I do hope at some point that many here can start pondering “Why did this happen?” after taking the red pill and seeing what is happening. :)

  259. I respect Krauser and Rollo’s work as its a place where, “Pretty lies perish,” but to give preeminence to the baser natures of humanity is to cast man as an animal and nothing more.

    I would challenge you to find me a single reference in any of the 290 post on my blog, drawn from the over 10 years of material I’ve written, where I refer to man as “an animal and nothing more”. The simple fact that I acknowledge the workings of the machine, and set aside the ghosts in it, is what triggers your binary absolutism to believe that I would give preeminence to either.

    The esoteric aspects of humanity – spirit, convictions, belief, justice, forgiveness, etc. – are very much integral parts of the human experience, but what offends, maybe frightens, you is that they only exist in a framework that facilitates them in varying degrees. I simply isolate the framework to better understand it.

  260. donalgraeme says:

    @ Farmboy

    I think that Empathalogism might be able to give a better answer than I, but I will try my best nevertheless.

    Women are empathetic as part of their core programming. However, this is trumped by another part of their core programming which is embedded even deeper into their code. Women are empathalogical, or they feed off of empathy. Essentially, they are emotional vampires.

    When a woman see suffering, she is filled with strong, powerful emotions that can be likened to empathy, or feeling the suffering of others, or being sensitive to others or understanding them. However, the raw emotion that is stirred up by empathy is extremely powerful, and they love it. Women thirst for this emotionalism, it is like a drug to them. Think of it as an emotional high. They get so caught up in the “high” that they lose sight of the what it means, that others are suffering. Ultimately, that doesn’t matter to the woman. What really matters is that she “feels for them”,

    So women can feel your pain. But any sense of truly feeling sorry for you, of regretting what has befallen you, of wanting better for you, takes a backseat to their enjoyment of that sense of feeling your pain.

  261. Dalrock says:

    @Anon Reader

    There is also the deeply buried, smoldering anger. Think of a pool of magma that is beneath the ground. There is no clue it is there, except that once in a while the ground gets a little hot for no explainable reason. it does not cool, nor does it vent, it simply remains, a body of molten rock, melting everything around it gradually. Anger that cannot be expressed, that cannot be dismissed, does not go away

    I don’t think this is precisely your point, but one thing I’ve found is being able to cut through the denial is very freeing for me (and hopefully this is the case for others). This is another way the red pill in general and the blog in specific has increased my happiness. With the help of the larger sphere, I’ve been able to nail down what elsewhere is uncontainable. As I’ve mentioned before, the facts are startlingly easy to come by; the challenge is hacking through the frame.

  262. imnobody says:

    What keeps me from having Red Pill Empathy for women is their basic lack of empathy for men.

    Why is it that they have so little empathy? I was always taught that women were more empathetic. Perhaps that is only with proper training.

    They are empathetic but only with people they now. For example, women can be empathetic with a husband, a son, a brother, a lover. Natural selection has selected women to have empathy because this is a trait which is good when you raise children.

    What women don’t have is empathy with “men in general”. They couldn’t care less about them. Women, as scientific studies show, have an in-group preference much higher than men, so they will always deffend an anonymous woman against an anonymous man. This is the basis of “Team Woman”, which feminism has employed with so much skill.

    Of course, things change if the man is not anonymous but it’s somebody known. For example, a mother will deffend her son against an evil girlfriend. Team Woman doesn’t apply in the private sphere but in the public sphere.

    I am describing the workings of normal women. In America, feminist propaganda is so pervasive that some women are even able to deffend a woman against her own son. But this is not a natural behavior, but something which is insane.

    (By the way, it was this complete carelessness of women towards men in general which made me decide to leave feminism. I thought: “If women don’t care about men, why do I have to care about women?”)

  263. Just Saying says:

    Throughout civilization, a woman’s sexuality was controlled by a an–first her father, and then her husband.

    Well, this is true — can’t imagine why I wouldn’t want that.

    In return for this, she was granted the highest honors–she was loved and served and honored, as she lived out the story of wife, mother, and grandmother.

    I can’t stop laughing — I can’t believe anyone could honestly believe this was women’s life — why then would they want anything else if it was so wonderful for them. That might have been so for a select few — but most women were seen and treated as little better than a slave. The family goat was treated with more respect.

    I have no desire to be a wife or mother — that’s why I don’t want a system that says that’s all I can be. Imagine that — it’s my choice.

  264. greyghost says:

    Lets not get too smart here. Women behave in their own best interest. Only beta males behave with the idea of the good of all. Empathy with out expected personal benefit. In the right cultural legal environment women will behave as the blue pill eyes see the pedistalised slut princess. I don’t need empathy for women because she doesn’t need my empathy.

  265. Farm Boy says:

    For example, women can be empathetic with a husband, a son, a brother, a lover.

    Are you sure about the “husband part”?

  266. Choking on red pills says:

    Many women feign empathy when they don’t give a shit. No, not when they don’t think much about killing their own flesh and blood who are in their bodies and are at their mercy.

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  268. imnobody says:

    Are you sure about the “husband part”?

    I have seen it but not by American women

  269. Pingback: More on Red Pill Bitterness | rivsdiary

  270. Wobs says:

    When BusterB had a website, there was a quote that was particularly relevant here:
    “Realise the true nature of women, then love them anyway.”

  271. Höllenhund says:

    “She said it was rare for a woman in her mid 20s to have an intact hymen b/c they are often broken during sports or accidents.”

    Isn’t that just BS invented by feminists?

  272. Höllenhund says:

    “Why is it that they have so little empathy?”

    Female solipsism.

  273. Ton says:

    I realized something. Nice guys think men and woman will one day realize what is going on, women will come to their “senses”, betas will up the alpha and the sexes will reconcile. Hence the soft handed approach. Hostile forces do not reconcile unless there is a clear victor. Think north and south Korea. No clear victory no reconciliation. Think WW 1 Germany. There was a victor but no crushing defeat so they gave it another go. WW 2, crushing defeat for Germany, relative good behavior ever sense.

    Also reconciliation won’t occur without serious and painful demonstrations of masculine strength because woman do not respect or respond to anything but power. “Alphaness” after all is nothing but a demonstration of social power

  274. greyghost says:

    For example, women can be empathetic with a husband, a son, a brother, a lover.

    Only if neccesary. Will have some for a gina tingle but that will trigger no tingle due to any need of empathy is weakness, no tingle. Family maybe if there is a benefit.

  275. greyghost says:

    Realise the true nature of women, then love them anyway

    If she is well behaved go ahead and fuck her. Save your love for god,your kids,your family,and your car. Indifference Do what it takes to stay out of legal trouble and let go of being a father and husband with the idea you will be respected by anyone for being a “good man” (from the church to the government the only thing lower in respect is a child molester.)
    Go about it with that as a subroutine in your interactions with women and you will have fewer issues with women.

  276. In that direction lies some general bitterness; the source of the anger is present in his life because he is honor bound to keep his promise, he can’t make the behavior stop, thus the anger continues, he’s drowning in it, he can’t get away from it easily, either. I have no idea how many men are silently simmering in their own, unventable, anger but I believe it is definitely not zero.

    That’s an excellent point, as was your entire comment. I wouldn’t call that kind of anger bitterness, but it could certainly lead to it. I didn’t mean to imply that it would be easy for a man in that kind of situation to stay righteous. It’d be like a man who goes off to war with dreams of being a hero, and comes home a year later without his legs — that’s not what he signed up for, and now his plans for the rest of his life appear ruined. It would take a lot of character for him not to wallow in bitterness.

    However, the bitterness I see in comments usually doesn’t seem to be coming from men trapped by their vows in that way. Those men, who by definition have committed themselves to sticking with the marriage and doing whatever they can to fix it, may be very angry (deti would be an example) but not really bitter, probably because they’re trying to do something about their situation (whether it will work or not).

    The comments that strike me as bitter tend to come from men who aren’t married, who declare absolutely about how women are amoral robots or immoral animals, how there’s no way marriage can work, how women today are somehow inherently different from their grandmothers, or other complaints. These men don’t seem to be seeking solutions, and they aren’t offering any; they’re just complaining and bashing anyone they see as foolish enough to think solutions may be possible. They may have been very badly treated by women, resulting in this attitude, and I don’t want to discount that. Something caused their bitterness; mine certainly didn’t come from nowhere. But if they’re not currently stuck in that the way you describe, they’d be better off to let go of the bitterness, hang onto the anger, and figure out what to do about it.

    (By the way, I’m not talking about all MGTOW guys there; you can decide that you’re better off going your own way without being bitter about it, because going your own way is a plan of action.)

  277. earl says:

    Women will only have empathy with you…if she’s gone through the same problem.

  278. earl says:

    The extremes of pedalizing them and hating them are both the wrong direction. It is best to know their nature and love them anyway.

    Honestly you could live without women…but why would you? They do make life more amusing.

  279. Farm Boy says:

    Honestly you could live without women…but why would you? They do make life more amusing.

    Dogs are amusing. And they are loyal.

  280. Ton says:

    Interaction with women are the most enjoyable when you are deliberate in keeping it short and enjoyable.

  281. deti says:

    Vox Day was correct – this post is one of Dalrock’s most important posts ever.

    This post and the comments are required reading for the manosphere. I haven’t read anyone really tackle this subject before this post was written.

  282. Höllenhund says:

    Women’s behavior is amusing in the same way the sight of a newly born two-headed calf was amusing to medieval peasants.

  283. Ton says:

    Had to interact with 2 women this morning. 1st girl was a blonde, she hit the parking lot when I did. She was driving to fast, wearing scribe and talking on the cell phone. She was late for work

    Saw her at the front desk. Told her she was blonde, late for work, talking on a cellphone… gee every blonde stereotype all rolled into one. She laughed and we chatted until the xray tech was ready.

    The xray tech tried to busted my balls about teasing the ball blonde girl. I told her she was cute and we should get coffee. She laughed, said I was terrible and we chatted while she took the xray. I gave her my card and rolled out.

    Enjoyable for all.

  284. Buck says:

    I admit, the previous post “haunted by her number” and similar sluts-hit-the-wall streams are very entertaining to me. I live out my anger/bitterness/resentment vicariously through these media.
    But when the laughter stops, I find myself asking why God allows scumbags and degenerates to “get away” with it….but does he?
    On re-reading the book of Job, I came to an epiphany, it’s none of my business! My job in the kingdom is to live my life by His standards, regardless of the choices of others.

    Now, lets not be stupid, the knowledge metered out on sites like this, Spearhead, Rational Male, et al, are all to be carefully considered; God calls us to be wise. BUT, to fret about things that we simply have NO control over is exhausting and futile.
    Men, protect yourself, look at “her” as a very sinister potential enemy with a huge reserve force of govt helpers who will gladly take your money and kids and put you in jail on a whim…. plan accordingly.

  285. earl says:

    I suppose you choose how you deal with their behaviors.

    But if you know their nature…why react with bitterness if you know that’s what they are going to do. I’d rather tease, toy with them, and brighten their otherwise dull, boring life. If they choose to react with anger or bitterness…that’s on them.

    Feminism basically told women to act like men…and they are failures when they adopt those behaviors. But if they acted like women I’d bet more guys would be glad to put up with their whimsical nature.

  286. Solomon says:

    I’ll just leave this right here…

    http://cougarlife.com/

    LOL date a cougar

  287. earl says:

    “But when the laughter stops, I find myself asking why God allows scumbags and degenerates to “get away” with it….but does he?”

    I don’t see disease, mental anguish, a failed life, bad choices, poverty, and a terrible attitude towards others as getting away with it.

    At first I was jealous of all those people having “fun” while I stayed on the straight path…later I realized I was more happy and healthy than those people. Peace of mind and wisdom is worth more than any fleeting pleasure of the world.

  288. Farm Boy says:

    Cougars or dogs… Which to choose?

  289. Kate says:

    Those who bitterly complain want to feel justified in their failure. In Pilgrim’s Progress, one of the traps Christian must avoid is the “Slough of Despond”: its a spot maybe people get stuck in. The hardest thing in life is to leave others behind as you continue your journey. But I’m not staying down there in the mud. Look after your souls, fellow pilgrims, and keep pressing on.

  290. Your whole post is gold but this really takes the cake!

    “But when the laughter stops, I find myself asking why God allows scumbags and degenerates to “get away” with it….but does he?

    On re-reading the book of Job, I came to an epiphany, it’s none of my business! “

  291. Höllenhund says:

    Who the hell would want to DATE a cougar?

  292. ar10308 says:

    “Now, lets not be stupid, the knowledge metered out on sites like this, Spearhead, Rational Male, et al, are all to be carefully considered; God calls us to be wise. BUT, to fret about things that we simply have NO control over is exhausting and futile.”

    Matthew 10:16 “Behold, I send you out as sheep in the midst of wolves; so be shrewd as serpents and innocent as doves.

    @Kate:
    “Those who bitterly complain want to feel justified in their failure.”
    Failure to what? Live to the world’s standards?
    Now mind you, there is failure, but that failure only came about because the training that was given was to a task that was completely opposite the one that stands in before. We have been trained to dive underwater for our entire lives but our task is actually scaling a 15,000ft peak.

  293. 8oxer says:

    earl writes:

    I don’t see disease, mental anguish, a failed life, bad choices, poverty, and a terrible attitude towards others as getting away with it.

    That is very wise, brother. The typical “slut” attitude is prevalent among male playas, too. If you base your life on exploiting others for your own pleasure, you grow hard and cruel as a matter of practice. The people who sneer at the old school wisdom (like the bible) are very short sighted, and generally they get less happy as life goes on.

  294. Farm Boy says:

    Those who bitterly complain want to feel justified in their failure

    I will be generous and suppose that she was not paying attention. Short answer – modern culture does not reward things that perpetuate civilization and men are noticing.

  295. Emma the Emo says:

    Like Dee, I see women have their own version of the bitter red pill. Some men will put up with bad behavior from women, just because she is hot. Like women, men can become blinded by lust. But I’m not terribly angry at them. I’d look for men who don’t make this mistake. Or, don’t make it too many times. If he’s like a slut who gets tired of dating assholes around 30 (his virtue stems from necessity rather than any real realization), he’s not really over hot bitches and will make bad decisions when hot bitches make themselves available again.

  296. Kate says:

    Failure…to succeed. Don’t make excuses for it, don’t explain it or qualify it; accept it. Learn from it and move on.

  297. ar10308 says:

    @Kate
    “Failure…to succeed. Don’t make excuses for it, don’t explain it or qualify it; accept it. Learn from it and move on.

    No.
    The definition of male success is not determined by women clearly acting out the Feminine Imperative and being led around by their stupid Hamster.

    Frankly, I consider not being married to or involved with American Churchian women to be a resounding success.

  298. donalgraeme says:

    “Frankly, I consider not being married to or involved with American Churchian women to be a resounding success.”

    Success? Perhaps. In much the same way as not being sent to prison constitutes success. I think you should distinguish between success and failure. What you describe is avoiding failure. Does that make it success? Or merely the first stop on the path to success?

  299. “Just Saying says:
    March 26, 2013 at 9:22 pm
    Throughout civilization, a woman’s sexuality was controlled by a an–first her father, and then her husband.

    Well, this is true — can’t imagine why I wouldn’t want that.

    In return for this, she was granted the highest honors–she was loved and served and honored, as she lived out the story of wife, mother, and grandmother.

    I can’t stop laughing — I can’t believe anyone could honestly believe this was women’s life — why then would they want anything else if it was so wonderful for them. That might have been so for a select few — but most women were seen and treated as little better than a slave. The family goat was treated with more respect.

    I have no desire to be a wife or mother — that’s why I don’t want a system that says that’s all I can be. Imagine that — it’s my choice.”

    You write, “I have no desire to be a wife or mother — that’s why I don’t want a system that says that’s all I can be. Imagine that — it’s my choice.”

    So then you are not a Christian. Why are you lurking on a Christian blog?

  300. ar10308 says:

    “In much the same way as not being sent to prison constitutes success.”

    I think using that analogy is rather apt. Although, you’d probably get more frequent sex in prison. And if you were a serial killer, it would actually be from females.

    “I think you should distinguish between success and failure. What you describe is avoiding failure. Does that make it success? Or merely the first stop on the path to success?”

    I believe it was Kate who is trying to define success for the “bitter” males, so why don’t you take that up with her? She’s trying to establish her frame here. I don’t intend to let her, at least not for me.

  301. Feminism basically told women to act like men…

    Feminism told them to act like the worst of men, not like a normal decent man at all. Feminism as always had its focus on the apex of men and tries to teach women to act like they think those men live.

    Feminism is nothing but the serpent whispering in Eve’s ear…

  302. Opus says:

    I suspect that Just Saying’s contribution yesterday at 09.22 is some kind of wind up – the equivalent of an on-line slut-walk. She is not the sort of gal who wants to be a wife (all men are slave-drivers) or mother (too posh to reproduce) – besides she has her corporate-cubicle career with its salary to consider and anyway marriage and children get in the way of ‘quality time’ with Alpha McGorgous or Fuckbuddy Rockdrummer or for that matter Fernando or Marco on her two week annual vacation somewhere in North Africa.

    It is, as she says, her choice, though of course should you so much as look at her for a microsecond too long this strong empowered woman of the noughties will be phoning 911 for some policeman (and it will be a policeMan) to come to her aid and let you know she is indeed a strong empowered woman. She needs the policeman because she has rejected those men who really would care for and protect her through life and without payment, namely her Father and her Husband.

    Of course I might have it all wrong and Just Saying is a celibate woman who intends to stay that way and spends her time in communion with the Holy Spirit and in imitation of Saint Theresa – but somehow I am not betting on that.

    Maybe she is right though: maybe women were treated by men as slaves, and maybe all that love-poetry from the likes of Shakespeare were merely a trick to deceive females, whilst their men spent their time enjoying themselves at female expense – you know: working down the mines, digging the roads, ploughing the fields, losing their life on the Somme or at Stalingrad; that sort of thing.

  303. Höllenhund says:

    “Feminism basically told women to act like men.”

    No. Feminists told women to act like women i.e. shit all over betas and take their money away in various ways.

  304. anonymous says:

    Every Nice Guy has listened to a girl tell him she thinks he’s a wonderful friend and then watched her climb on the back of a Harley behind a grungy ex-con… A huge part of the red pill — and a difficult one to swallow — is that the girls who did that are normal. They weren’t (necessarily) abused or having mental issues… There’s no Nice Girl out there

    That, brethern, is the whole redpill in one sentence: There’s no Nice Girl out there

    Or, as King Solomon said:I found one upright man among a thousand, but not one upright woman among them all. (Ecclesiastes 7:28). It is well to remember at this point, that Solomon actually had a thousand women — 700 wives, 300 concubines — so we may conclude that he did his, um, research, thoroughly.

    The best you can hope for is to find one who’s aware of them and committed to suppressing them as best she can. That’s not much of a replacement fairy tale.

    No but it CAN lead to a happy marriage (as it did for me). Unfortunately many a “good Christian woman” successfully suppresses her urge for lawless Alphas but somehow fails at the task of reconciling herself to the Mr Average that she can actually land, and thus ends up 40 and bitterly single. (Those who think that manospherians are “anti-woman”, take note: we’re trying to solve, or rather prevent, HER problem too. We’re all heterosexuals after all.)

  305. Kate says:

    “(Those who think that manospherians are “anti-woman”, take note: we’re trying to solve, or rather prevent, HER problem too. We’re all heterosexuals after all.)”

    Yes! As I wrote the other day: “The purpose of marriage is to hinder a woman’s hypergamy and protect her from her own instincts as much as it is to preserve her honor for her husband’s inspiration, etc. Men and women will forever be at a stalemate until the leap of faith in the form of committment is made. It is the only thing that saves both parties.”

  306. Farm Boy says:

    Failure…to succeed. Don’t make excuses for it, don’t explain it or qualify it; accept it. Learn from it and move on.

    Perhaps you should read more of Dalrock’s posts and subsequent comments. There are many intelligent people trying to build a model of the situation, one that actually works, one that is predictive. For the good of society, this needs to be done; and this work is ongoing here.

  307. Farm Boy says:

    “Feminism basically told women to act like men.”

    No. Feminists told women to act like women i.e. shit all over betas and take their money away in various ways.

    No, Feminism taught women to shit all over their nests.

  308. anonymous says:

    Quoting myself from upthread:
    For whatever odd spiritual or evolutionary reason, the hardwired romantic script of a human male is radically at odds with how women actually work.

    And quoting Cail:
    There’s no Nice Girl out there…

    So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl? Why are we hardwired to put on our white-knight armor, mount up, and charge like the Light Brigade into the face of certain destruction — emotional, financial, or even physical — in a mad quest to win her, or defend her?

    Why are we born believing this grand lie? Was it true, before the Fall?

  309. Farm Boy says:

    So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl?

    Who says we are born with it? It is probably more taught. It used to be that girls were raised to be nice, and matched the guys expectations. Not so much anymore.

    Females have changed, guy’s expectations have not.

  310. hurting says:

    Women can’t and/or don’t empathize with men because they actually fervently believe the lies that they are taught from a very early age that men are indeed more flawed and yet more privileged than women. They don’t ever feel sorry for men in the realm of male-female interaction, up to and including marriage and divorce, because they fallaciously ascribe the real advantages enjoyed by a very small subset of men (alphas) to all of them; the apex fallacy writ large.

    Even people inclined toward empathy demonstrate this quality differentially. Empathetic people may retain some genuine concern for even those who fritter away obvious opportunities, but not as much as they empathasize with those whose lot in life is demonstrably more determined by forces outside their control. A large majority of women simply believe that men have it easy – hence, no empathy.

  311. earl says:

    “So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl?”

    Somebody has to replace our mothers.

  312. anonymous says:

    Krakonos: Maybe monogamous pairing and spinsters are hardwired in white man’s mind. It had been working for most of the history (from Ice age hunter-gatherers thru germanic tribes – described by Tacitus – to medieval christianity).

    If Peter Frost (great name for a scientist who studies the Ice Age, LOL) is to be believed, the whole reason why white people evolved, is due to a Paleolithic man shortage occasioned by the extreme hunting conditions of Ice Age Europe. In warmer climes, a man shortage would just lead to polygyny, but if nearly 100% of the food comes from hunting, a man can’t normally afford more than one wife. So with lots of men not coming home from the hunt alive, you had a lot of monogamous men whose wives would do ANYTHING to keep them… .and a lot of spinsters and widows. In short, you have women ruthlessly competing for men, which is the reverse of the normal human pattern.

    The light coloration of whites, Frost explains, is due to the universal male preference for lighter women, combined with this demographic reversal in which men had all the choices. Hence there was runaway selection for male preferences. The variable colors of hair and eyes, he explains by rare-color morph advantage, acted on by the same selective dynamic.
    http://evoandproud.blogspot.com/2010/04/puzzle-of-european-hair-and-eye-color.html
    http://www.ceacb.ucl.ac.uk/cultureclub/files/CC2006-03-07_Frost.pdf

    It also possibly explains the white man’s social ineptitude. (Disclaimer: I’m white). If the ONLY thing necessary to get a woman, was to come back from the mammoth ir bison hunt alive and with meat in hand… then… the ability to sing, dance, charm, seduce, cuckold. deceive, intimidate rivals, etc, meant nothing. The only traits that mattered, in men, were raw endurance, plus an intellect capable of hyperfocus for hunting and making better weapons Any man who mastered these, had his choice of women — social skills be damned.

  313. Kate says:

    @ donalgraeme: I agree that avoiding failure is not exactly the same as success. In fact, I think failure might be an important ingredient in success. I like the poet Robert Burns, one of whose proverbs goes something like: you can never know what is enough until you know what is more than enough. Emily Dickinson looks at things from a similar perspective: success is countest sweetest by those who ne’er succeed. All of these “opposites” seem to be like that. You can’t know the one without knowing the other. So, failure- an objective event on its own- teaches us many things and pushes us to succeed.

  314. earl says:

    “The only traits that mattered, in men, were raw endurance, plus an intellect capable of hyperfocus for hunting and making better weapons.”

    Power and resources…the universal way to get women.

  315. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock
    I don’t think this is precisely your point, but one thing I’ve found is being able to cut through the denial is very freeing for me (and hopefully this is the case for others). This is another way the red pill in general and the blog in specific has increased my happiness. With the help of the larger sphere, I’ve been able to nail down what elsewhere is uncontainable. As I’ve mentioned before, the facts are startlingly easy to come by; the challenge is hacking through the frame.

    I’m thinking that many men get stuck on a kind of cognitive dissonance. They have a picture in their mind, a template, of “what women are” that is false, and the initial shock of learning that is false (glasses / red pill/ what have you) may be accompanied by a certain degree of, oh, excitement. “FInally! Some explanations that make sense!” but that can be accompanied by anger and then, if that anger is not resolve one way or another (Cail Corishev’s point is good – even knowing “this is the right way” can be helpful) some descent to bitterness. Because these men do not fully accept the facts.

    Suppose a man gtries some basic Game on his wife / LTR, simple things like agree & amplify, cocy-funny, a touch of dread – and it works! She becomes less obnoxious, more pleasant to be around. At this point his premise about women has shifted a bit, but only a bit : “She’s not as much like me as I thought or was taught. Ok, i can deal with this: input A, output A1, input B, output B2″ . The problem that may well arise at this point is kind of subtle: he is consciously acting in certain ways to provoke certain responses, but his own premises may still be stuck back at the blue pill / pre glasses mode. “She acts this way when I lead, because of evo-psyche responses, but if she really thought about it, she would not want this. I sure woudln’t…” might be the thought pattern.

    Or to put it another way, a man moves from thinking “she’s 99% like me” to “she’s 90% like me”, and live gets better for both of them. But some behaviors, maybe important ones, remain unexplained – and he may blame her, he may blame the glasses, he may blame himself, but the real source of dissonance is he hasn’t fully accepted reality. “90% the same” isn’t true. I can’t quantify the degree of “sameness” between men and women, but 90% is too high.

    Cail Corishev, thanks for the reply, I belive I see your point more clearly. These men you refer to, they have accepted only a little bit of the turth about women, and it is upsetting to them for the reasons we all ahve discussed at length (fails to match what they were taught, etc). but they just have not made the push, mentally, to learn the rest of the facts. So they are stuck in a halfway-here, halfway-there place, and that’s very frustrating I am sure. Very sure. “Can’t go back, don’t like going forward, arrgh” might be one way to sum that state of mind up.

    It is one of those pop-psy axioms that a new habit is built day by day, but that a block of 21 days should be reserved for the building. Do some new thing every day for 21 days, and it likely will become a habit. Back in the 90’s, and proabably in the 80’s as well, teh independent wimmenz used to urge each other to do “affirmations”. The cartoon version of this is something like a Sally Forth cartoon, where she stands in the bathroom and reads positive, affirming messages to herself off of sticky Post-Its she put on the mirror. This behavior was supposed to build up self confidence, and enable teh strong, independent woman to get through the day in the horrid, man-infested world of business. Maybe some men need to do a version of this – negations. Take a few minutes at the same time each day, and review “Ways Women Are Not Men And Men Are Not Women”, not in an angry way (“they all lie”) or in a pedestalizating way (“they are all angels!”) but in a realistic way (“their brain activity changes during the month – predictably). I’m not sure exactly what to write on such a set of Post-Its, but am pretty sure the act of actually formulating realistic differences would be clarifying to many men, and should assiste in getting “unstuck”.

  316. Farm Boy says:

    Power and resources…the universal way to get women.

    When starvation is not an issue, a song and dance work better (e.g. PUA techniques)

  317. In many ways Heartiste’s worldview is more complete and accurate than Dalrock’s.

    Christianity, in its purest sense, does not allow for game. Of course this would assume that one marries a woman capable of responding to the honorable, capable of appreciating being cherished and provided for. Since most modern women have been butthexted and desouled, marrying a Christian woman is nigh impossible.

    Dalrock seems like he has a great wife, so I doubt he has to “game” her all that much, but rather now and then just lay down the law. And rather than calling the police or filing by divorce, as a good Christian woman raised by good Christian parents, she understands the higher story.

    The problem with applying “game” to one’s wife is that do you really want to have to “game” someone living under your own roof, which you are paying for? Suppose she reads a blog on “game” one day and decides to file for divorce and seize half your assets as part of the “game?” I imagine it would be stressful to lay down at night beside someone you were “gaming,” let alone letting them into your house or even marrying them.

    There is a reason the Bible teaches neither Game nor Buttcockingzlzozlzozozz, and I truly believe that if a Biblical marriage is what ye seek, the Bible takes precedence over negging/gaming/etc. For instance, I can’t find anywhere where Jesus states that “In order to get sex from your wife, neg her,” but rather all of this is taken care of in Genesis, where the Lord states that the wife’s desire shall be to her husband, and she shall rule over him.

    Now Jesus stated that he came to fulfill this law, not to abolish it. And so, one would wish to mary a woman who lived by the biblical Code of Honor. I understand that many churchians preach that Jesus came to abolish the Law, but that is because they want Jesus to sanctify their material lusts and buttcockinzgzlzozloz, which Jesus simply cannot, did not, and will never do.

    To all the Christian men out there–be wary of marrying a woman you have to “game.” In this spirit, Heartiste is more of a purist as he never stipulates that one ought mix marriage and game, as he understands that as far as the idealist is concerned, marriage and game are polar opposites (as different as buttcockcingzlzozz and ginaockkziznzgzlzozzo in polite churchian parlance).

  318. zozozlzoz ^^^ correction: he shall rule over her!

    “The Punishment of Mankind

    16Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.”
    King James Bible Genesis 3:16

  319. Joeywheels says:

    Having only recently discovered the Manosphere within the last 6 months or so, I have yet to choke on the Red Pill. My own frivorce was almost three years ago now and during the ensuing months, I had already self-adjusted and moved on. No alimony, no kids, so no child support, no real assets to divide even after a 20+ year relationship/marriage.

    What I *AM* learning via the ‘sphere is that there are others whom have war stories similar to my own. I take comfort and education in that. I read various blogs on the subject gleaning wheat from the horror and the humor, so thanks to Vox, Dalrock, Rollo, et al.

    I will add that in regards to SMP, I have it tough. I’m handsome, have a great career and a boisterous personality that makes me fun to be around. I have many female acquaintances and no desire for a girlfriend.

    So what gives? What is so tough for me?

    Women see a wheelchair before they see the man in it as a sexual object or relationship material
    Gimp Game is still real nebulous, if at all existant.

    But…I’m not really complaining as I am more or less GMOW. Not all buffets deserve to have me as a patron, you know?

  320. So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl?

    This has puzzled me ever since I discovered the red pill, so I’m going to do a long blog post on it one of these days. But in short: I think in my own case it was both nature and nurture. Yes, I’m sure I was taught plenty of feminism through school and entertainment. But I grew up in a fairly traditional family that protected us from that somewhat and regularly gave us opposing examples: a dad who brought home the bacon and administered the serious discipline, a mom who stayed home with us and was nurturing, relatives who nearly all stayed married, etc. I’ve talked before about how my mom once — fairly angrily — explained to me that women are NOT necessarily ladies.

    So why did I absorb one viewpoint so much and miss the other? Why did I end up thinking girls were like Ringwald in Sixteen Candles, when I had also seen The Taming of the Shrew? Looking back now, I can see all kinds of red pill truth in the movies and songs I grew up with, so how did I miss it? Why did I think Hawkeye Pierce was a better role model than James Bond — especially since Hawkeye usually didn’t get the girl?

    I don’t know, but I think there may be two reasons. First, I may have been born that way to some extent: an introverted sort with no interest in conflict, especially with women. So I was probably predisposed to trying to woo women with Alda-style sensitivity rather than with Bond-style assertiveness. There have been some posts at excavatingeden.com lately on the topic of Neanderthals (who are usually introverted) having difficulty with modern dating because they’re just not built for the “conquering” attitude that gets results.

    Second, I think there’s some evidence that kids tend to learn from their peers and sources outside the family much more than from their parents. John Derbyshire once wrote that, if I recall correctly, it appears that about 50% of a child’s beliefs are hereditary, and almost 50% come from his peers and other outside sources, leaving almost no room for any influence by his parents beyond the genes they gave him. I’d say my own experience bears that out: my parents gave me intelligence and a personality much like theirs, but they also set great examples — which I almost completely ignored until after I’d made all the mistakes that their example could have saved me.

    Anyway, that’s probably the biggest not-completely-answered question I still kick around with regard to red-pill matters: why do men (why did I) absorb all the wrong lessons and ignore the right ones? Still thinking on it.

  321. Stingray says:

    GBFM,

    So I am clear, you believe there is a difference between Game and strength as a man? Meaning game is more of a process and strength is inherent (and can be made to be inherent)?

    I wrote not too long ago something along the lines of what you stated here, that gaming one’s wife for the rest of the husband’s wife is not really a necessity.

    but rather now and then just lay down the law. And rather than calling the police or filing by divorce, as a good Christian woman raised by good Christian parents, she understands the higher story.

    Though the parents should, and very often do, have an influence on their daughters lives, the strength of her husband should definitely not be forgotten. The meaning and importance of respect is most often taught to a woman by a man that she does respect. It is very difficult to learn this concept without the respect already in place, IMO. She should first learn it from her father (and it should be enforced by her mother’s word and example) and further learn it from her husband.

  322. Dee says:

    Farm Boy says:

    Realizing that positive personality traits don’t turn men on

    I look for them. Who wants to marry a bitch?

    No one wants to marry a bitch. Sadly, a lot of men do anyway.

    Let me ask this: Would you marry a low- maintenance, sweet, devout Christian girl who’s ugly? We’re talking a 0, 1 or a 2? No? Well, I hope you wouldn’t. I wouldn’t wish unhappiness on you. Seriously, few men are happy married to an ugly girl, even if she has a nice personality.

    Roissy himself noted that ugly girls don’t need much game. They are lower maintenance and far less likely to cheat (do to lack of opportunity). But men don’t want them. They are a last resort when a man can’t bag a hottie.

    Althol Kay’s site tells wives to keep up their looks as long as possible, so their men won’t get bored and be tempted to cheat. So, basically, years of good service as a wife aren’t enough.

    Biology’s heartless.

    As a Christian, I accept this. It’s part of the “Man’s (as in human’s) fallen nature”. Men and women get turned on by qualities that have little to do with goodness.

  323. imnobody says:

    Seriously, few men are happy married to an ugly girl, even if she has a nice personality.

    Right. If it is something that I hate about being a man, it’s exactly that. Life would be easier for me if I could be happy with an ugly woman. But I can’t: I am not wired this way. I have tried once and again.

    But this can’t be changed. What can be changed is that society admits this instead of telling BS like “beauty is on the inside” or “men are shallow because they only like hot women”.

    If this was an universally accepted truth, it would be easier for everyone: men and women.

  324. imnobody says:

    @earl

    “So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl?”

    Somebody has to replace our mothers.

    ^^^^^ ^

    THIS

  325. Right. If it is something that I hate about being a man, it’s exactly that. Life would be easier for me if I could be happy with an ugly woman. But I can’t: I am not wired this way. I have tried once and again.

    Same here. Not really ugly, but in the “we get along great; she just doesn’t turn me on” category.

    Probably the cruelest thing I’ve ever done to another human being.

  326. Looking Glass says:

    @Cail:

    I don’t want to spend too long on this, though I do disagree with Derb a bit. (He’s definitely in the much more “genes determine you” camp, more than he likes to admit)

    I think the answer is Sugar. Or Cultural Marxism. Or Adrenaline Rushes. They offer us things we want that are at a peak for short-term effect, but we all know the long-term consequences are very nasty. Yet, each choice to indulge isn’t terribly problematic, so it’s only after massive problems have arisen that you stand back and go “How did it get so bad?” or “How did I get here?”.

    In the case of the Alan Alda-type sensitive/emotional guys, the answer is quite straight forward: there’s little risk. Being assertive is to take upon yourself massive risks. There’s a reason you have to “work up the courage” to undertake certain tasks. So, if being the “caring” or “sensitive” type can supposedly get you women, what benefit is there to being dominant if it doesn’t come utterly naturally to you? We all like our sweet, sweet lies. Remember, almost no one thinks their evil, even as they’re committing great evils. We’re human, we love our lies.

  327. an observer says:

    “Men and women get turned on by qualities that have little to do with goodness.”

    Herein lies the difference: men can find something attractive in most women. But most women cannot do the reverse, and are only attracted to a small percentage of high status men.

    Yet here we are, encouraging men to broaden (!) their horizons even further, and date the fatties, the uglies and the saintly single mommies.

    Meanwhile, women are encouraged to aim high. Yes, we see the results of that with women being attracted to all manner of thugs, playas and the like:
    http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/officer-keeps-job-after-romancing-bikie-boss-20130327-2guq6.html

    This is the behaviour I should have sympathy for?

    I have empathy for individual women, but I no longer trust them or talk openly with them. I consistently see even the most patiently-trained wife revert to team woman thinking, favouring an anonymous woman over an anonymous man. Such a woman requires constant monitoring to keep her on course.

    Empathy producing? No, disheartening.

  328. orion says:

    ´@ Dalrock

    You see was promised something, If I worked hard and was a decent human being I would get a good woman,

    Not so, and in a way, female instincts are deeply dysfunctional because the supposed alphas they fuck in their prime would have been knocked about by any real alpha whithout a second thought,

    They are narcissistic asshats, thats what they are.

    Clowns.,

    But now, that I have walked the path of Da Game and have had sex with a few hundred women whose affection was for sale on top of it, I dont think that I want all of this to end in a happy ever after and whatnot.

    I want to see Rome burn,

    Oh, and as a side note, whores may not count as in you have conquered them, but they do count when it comes to sheer experience.

    Maybe bitterness is toxic,… so what?

    I have not poisoned the well, but I would like them to drink from it as well.

    I might be petty, I might be mean, I might be insane but what I reallly want is not forgiveness, nor empathy, BUT JUSTICE:

    I might have been a good man once, I no longer am.

    Nobody cares if men suffer, maybe they will listen to them.

  329. This means not seeing “woman” as a faceless collective, but making a serious effort to see individual women for who they are.

    While I agree with this in principle, there is a problem with this. In the past we have talked about how, for example, tradcon women will defend sluts against being called sluts treating the term, “slut”, as an attack on all women. While the tradcon women in question may be very different from the sluts (although there are plenty of tradcom women who are former sluts), the fact is they chose the path of solidarity of, “we women are all sluts”. They may be different from the sluts, but is the difference relevant to us? In many cases the answer is no.

    Treating women as a collective in many cases is a shorthand for dealing with this women. It doesn’t mean that individual woman aren’t different, but that women themselves will be a faceless collective when convenient. It also means that in many cases there is no reason to bother investigating the difference between women since they’re trying so hard to look the same.

  330. Just Saying says:

    It is, as she says, her choice, though of course should you so much as look at her for a microsecond too long this strong empowered woman of the noughties will be phoning 911 for some policeman (and it will be a policeMan) to come to her aid and let you know she is indeed a strong empowered woman. She needs the policeman because she has rejected those men who really would care for and protect her through life and without payment, namely her Father and her Husband.

    The only time I called 911 was when a MAN (a stranger) had broken into my apartment. Three police officers came, one of them a police WOMAN. The police MAN asked me if I wanted to press charges and I felt sorry for the intruder and did not press charges, if I was vindicative just because it was a MAN I could have put him in jail for breaking and entering. Of course, I’m sure it was my fault he broke in — must have been after all I’m a woman.

  331. greyghost says:

    The only reason you didn’t press charges was because he was not your husband. Crimminal bad boy had you feeling sorry for him. a beta that worked 8 years and gave control of 90% percent of all he had to you would be a leper with a DV charge on his face. That is why we have this blog and you know it.

  332. Opus says:

    What a strange story from Just Saying.

    As I predicted, the Police officers were male – no less than three of them – now that is truly service – where I live (in 999 land) Trespass as such is not a crime (though Just Saying seeks to accentuate the fact that a woman was brought along for the ride) but one wonders: Was the intruder still there when the police arrived, seeing that he was caught? – and why did Just Saying feel sorry for this intruder seeing she had immediately before sought to have him arrested? – did she perhaps know the intruder, and was the intruder male – she does not quite say? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that we have not quite been told the full story – greyghost may well be more or less correct in his assumption – not that we actually want to know.

  333. Everytime I go traveling and watch women in groups or alone, in airports or hotels or on pedestrian walkways, I do not necessarily grow more empathetic, but I grow in the knowledge that I SHOULD grow more empathetic. I believe you can extract the generally helpless behavior you see, the lack of spatial awareness, the inability to follow layered conversational nuance due to suffering preconceptions they are heir to from the “leaders” who plowed ahead of them…etc, and you see them (of course NAWALT and it should be said, some women are flying through the business of moving themselves from A to B, but these have overcome these little aspects of their nature when left feral)
    Imagine this lack of spatial awareness and confusion as an overt display of the general lack of logical sorting and collating in the mind. This requires some assistance from men. But its all damned difficult to do when we are eviscerated for merely asserting it exists. Its a huge battle in most marriages to get to where the wife finally says, “yes, sometimes I am very illogical (and spatially unaware) and I need your help and see that you have been trying to help and rather just working around it because I was blind”

  334. mackPUA says:

    Women always portray men they have gina tingles for, as victims

    Even theyre breaking into their house, & running off with their attention whoring handbags …

    Seriously women keep your crap in your pockets … men arent interested in the size of your handbag …

  335. earl says:

    If a woman’s base emotions are bitterness, anger, jadedness, or aggression towards men…then no empathy from me. You are not a woman and you don’t deserve to be treated like one…you are just another brainwashed feminist who probably sold her body for bread. Enjoy your loneliness as daddy government and police state takes care of you.

    Women are suppose to be gentle, kind, pure, supportive, attractive, and you know…actually like men. Women today have been taken over by a cult.

  336. mackPUA says:

    ““So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl?”

    Somebody has to replace our mothers.”

    Seriously most men dont want their mother replaced … most men cant wait to get the hell away from their mother, as fast as they can …

    Most men realise how batshit theyre mother really is at an early age

    Ask any 14 yr old …

  337. earl says:

    “Seriously most men dont want their mother replaced … most men cant wait to get the hell away from their mother, as fast as they can …”

    Yeah most men don’t…most betas and herbs put their head in her lap and take orders from her like she’s their mother.

  338. mackPUA says:

    I reserve the right to be masculine, competitive, dominant & aggressive, & kick the ass of anyone who violates my liberties …

    Gentle, kind & pure are reserved for women, precisely because they cant do any of the above …

    Gentle kind & pure men are basically pussy whipped, emasculated

    Men are & always have been a warrior caste, its what makes us great

  339. Höllenhund says:

    >>>So the great question is, why are we born believing in the nonexistent Nice Girl?”

    >>Somebody has to replace our mothers.”

    >Seriously most men dont want their mother replaced

    I think what earl meant is that men are biologically wired to want to procreate i.e. replace their mothers and wives with daughters who will become mothers.

  340. Farm Boy says:

    the lack of spatial awareness

    That is why the media makes such a big fuss about women pilots. They really shouldn’t be there, but to make sure they stay they are given an extra “you go grrrll”.

  341. @ Father Marker:

    I watched the video and read the material on the website you provided:
    http://advindicate.com/?p=3029

    I responded with the following:
    “I had attended a Seventh Day Adventist church for a few months with my former wife in Arizona a few years back. I am a Christian. Although I respectfully disagreed with some of the denominations beliefs, it was a respectful disagreement. After what I just learned by watching the video and reading the material, I am not so respectful any longer. Where is your church’s leadership! That crap should not be tolerated in a Christian institution. Seventh Day Adventist leadership should get off their butts and excommunicte the satanists that are poluting your denomination; or if they don’t have the backbone to do so, then The Lord REBUKE THEM!”

    @ Dalrock:
    Much respect to you! I am learning so much at this blog. You have helped me much. I believe I will be a better father to my 13 year old son by reading some of the information here. May God bless you as you have blessed me………

  342. Just Saying says:

    As I predicted, the Police officers were male – no less than three of them – now that is truly service – where I live (in 999 land) Trespass as such is not a crime (though Just Saying seeks to accentuate the fact that a woman was brought along for the ride) but one wonders: Was the intruder still there when the police arrived, seeing that he was caught? – and why did Just Saying feel sorry for this intruder seeing she had immediately before sought to have him arrested? – did she perhaps know the intruder, and was the intruder male – she does not quite say? I am going to go out on a limb and suggest that we have not quite been told the full story – greyghost may well be more or less correct in his assumption – not that we actually want to know.

    Only two were police MEN — one was a police WOMEN. The break-in was a TOTAL stranger. My bad I don’t know if the charge would just be trespassing or breaking and entering. I did not call the police to have him arrested per say — I could hardly tap him on the shoulder and wake him up and ask him to leave. He came in my apartment though a patio door while I was asleep and simply laid down and went to sleep. So he had been in my house all night — I got up saw him called police and they came and handed cuffed him asked him what the H he was doing there, asked him if he even knew where he was — he did not — obviously English wasn’t his first language. I felt sorry for him because he couldn’t speak english very well, these police men were standing over him, he was in shock, I don’t know if he was on drugs, homeless or what. Weird but true — I didn’t want to send him to jail, just get him out without myself getting hurt.

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  345. “After what I just learned by watching the video and reading the material, I am not so respectful any longer. Where is your church’s leadership!”

    If this be the way my church is going I’m right with you brother. Things are so bad in our church now that I’m beginning to wonder what my options are without rejecting the fundamental beliefs that my church formally espouses.

    You may be somewhat happy to see that the minister responsible for this has been fired. What gets me though is that a lot of Adventists are expressing support for his position. In 2015 our denomination will be having a global meeting and one of the topics on the agenda will be the matter of women’s ordination. If many of the ministers that I formerly respected have their way we will be ordaining female ministers post 2015.

    Sorry everyone else for going off topic but the video I linked to in my above comment is yet another great example of the self flagellation mangina ministers indulge in in the Christian community.

  346. Ton says:

    Men believe in the nice girl myth because most men are fairly decent and it’s natural to think people are, more or less, just like yourself

  347. anonymous says:

    Ton: Men believe in the nice girl myth because most men are fairly decent and it’s natural to think people are, more or less, just like yourself

    +1 to this. This is probably the real answer. We’re projecting.

    Projection. Hmmm…. Makes ya wonder about people who structure their entire worldview and personal identity around falsehoods such as, “all men are rapists and/or complicit in rape culture”, “all whites are racists and/or complicit in racism”, “white males have illegitimate privilege”, “everything white males ever do or say, is a microaggression”, and similar obvious bullshit. Monsters, by projection, see everyone else as a monster, so these leftist slanders reveal their own soul-sickness, not ours.

  348. Tom says:

    I do feel bitter. By replacing the many myths about women’s nature with accurate and realistic understanding of a women’s true nature I have a choice. Not to accept behavior and lifestyle choices that lead to my destitution and misery.

  349. M.A. says:

    That means we may get married to a disloyal enemy. No suprise one gets cynical about love and marriage , no one wants to kiss a lethal back stabbing monster.

  350. M.A. says:

    Besides, once you find out who your enemy is, one will surely not feel any empathy or mercy for someone who might jeopardize his existence, let alone feel like having a romance with such a disloyal, mean, ruthless traitor that happens to be called “wife” or “girlfriend”.

  351. orion says:

    Here is a thought though that might be seen as empathy.

    What is often forgotten is that yes, they are warm, and mostly friendly but their genetic programming is mercyless.

    Utterly, completely, ruthlessly, mercyless.

    Which is probably why we all have more or less the same number of digits, and IQ above room temperature and other, rather positive traits.

    If their programming would not rule them supreme as it does, you could not game them.

    At least until a certain age they are far superior when it comes to social awareness, their empathy borders on mind reading and yet you can game them.

    That is because, while men might suffer from it, it is she that is ruled by an iron fist.

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  353. anon says:

    I’m feeling worse than when I discovered the manosphere. I hear some bitch making some cavalier comment about cuckolding a man (trust me, you don’t want to hear the details, it was a really wierd story) and a red mist falls over my eyes, and then 2 days later I still have to push myself hard just to get out of bed in the morning. That can’t possibly be a normal reaction, I’m sure most people are better at putting those thoughts on the backburner so they can get things done, but those kind of stories (I’ve read a few others that sound like the setup for a murder-suicide) just stay with me.
    And it’s not like anything remotely that bad has actually happened to ME, the worst I ever had to deal with was being some girls “best friend” until I finally stopped returning her calls.

    But shit, it seems like something that could easily happen to me-I don’t even get how you’re really supposed to be forward with women and get away with it (just thinking it’s something you have to “get away with” probably speaks volumes), I haven’t really “connected” with anyone to the point where I could consider them a friend since high school-after rewriting this I think I have some trust issues I need to work on somehow. So whenever I have the misfortune of coming across anyone’s horror stories I feel like I’m there, not sure whether to get out of there or start throwing punches (which is what they so obviously want these men to do)

    Let me get to the point. How can I learn to trust people more (not just women, everybody), how can I get used to taking reasonable risks (and not worrying about legal trouble when courting women), and why do I get the feeling the answer is right under my nose?

  354. Looking Glass says:

    @anon:

    “Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.” Psalms 23:4. http://bible.cc/psalms/23-4.htm

    There’s a trust issue there, but let’s start with the confidence side of things. Humans are evil. Women are evil; Men are evil. But both have the capacity for great good through God. That’s much of the key: you need to remember *what* humans are, not what *you* want them to be.

    Much of the “red pill” aspect is removing the blinders to human nature that you’ve been taught, from a very young age, to use. You’re having problems handling the difference between the Reality and your Perceptions. This puts you in a state where you lack confidence in what you should be doing, as the situation is unknown. That’s where you are right now.

    So, how to go forward? First, fear not. Know what humans are, in their normal states and what they are capable of. Next, find something to build some confidence upon. (Marital Arts can be a good place for a lot of people, though one with practical utility is suggested) Then: never wait to judge how you’ve come across on an approach, as it signals a lack of confidence. If it doesn’t work, just move on, which is itself a sign of confidence.

    As to some of the other bits, one thing that I’m coming to realize in the damage of “wear your emotions on your sleeves” stuff is how much power it gives a Woman over a Man. If you give “her” your emotions, you give her power over you to toy with them. You’ll need to learn to *not* do that. Only God is your master, not any man or woman. Don’t give them that power, which throwing your emotions for them to play with causes. Simply never do that, but that is going to be a hard lesson to learn. You’ve probably been taught that your whole life.

  355. anon says:

    I really have let them get their hooks into me, just not the way they probably wanted. Can we talk more about the fear problem? It’s not really fear of rejection (at least not by itself that I’m worried about, getting turned away again isn’t going to kill me), so much as fear of malicious prosecution or career sabotage. I know those are still worldy concerns and you probably see no difference, but it seems like life and death to me, and I feel like I’m in a way being punished by being consigned to useful beta status just for worrying about my own future. I want to try your worldview though, can we talk about this some more?

    Also, I am in my university’s Jiu Jitsu club but so far it’s been a pretty humbling experience (and I keep forgetting basic moves.) I hope I’ll be ready for white belt tournaments by the time I graduate.

  356. anon says:

    ^above comment was a reply to looking glass

  357. Looking Glass says:

    @anon:

    Sure, we can talk about that.

    Jiu Jitsu is a solid place to start, actually. And, yes, getting your ass handed to you generally is a humbling experience, but use that and work hard. Once you master the challenge, you become the master of that type of situation. Never underestimate Skill. Value it, as God, your Honor and your Skills are, at the end of it all, all that you truly have. So, build skills. Be good. Be awesome. It’s pretty fun at the end. :)

    Now, some further thoughts. This has come up a few times in discussions but I’m not your standard guy. I’m an Alpha; son of an Alpha; Grandson of 2 Alphas. Given some different family circumstances, I’d be a brutally thorough elitist. I simply come at this stuff from a different point of view (mostly in trying to figure out why certain things happened and tightening up my own Game… assuming I can be bothered to deploy it). But I’ll try to give some insight, especially as you’re only in college so it’s a LOT easier to adjust to issues.

    First, there’s nothing wrong with thinking ahead. Proper battle space preparation is very important. Nothing Beta about that. (Actually, I’ll skip Alpha/Beta from here out, as I don’t subscribe to the short-hand from Roissy, as it confuses more than it illuminates) There is nothing weak about being prepared. There just isn’t anything attractive about it until it’s actually in action. When you’re dominating a space, that’s attractive. (The confidence comes from building the Skill/preparation, the pay off is at the end from having done the work) So, when it comes to future career, you generally have two options (given the way our society enforces the laws): either tip-toe around them or Go Big on abusing them. Our society now favors either “cower” or “manipulate”, want to guess which one comes out ahead?

    A good place for some of the other side of things would be here: http://dannyfrom504.wordpress.com/ Danny is a 5’4″, bald, nearly 40 year old man. The ladies adore him and he loves them. As he himself points out, he’s an HR nightmare, but no one would EVER report him. Know why? The ladies love to be around him. He makes it fun, but still does his work quite well. I tend to be the flip side of things. My personality is what you might call “savagely honest”. No one simply gets away with any BS around me, period. And, you know what? I’ve always had a pretty easy time with women. Mind you, this is the part where I point out I’m an dominant guy but not a “Natural”. I could reel them in but wasn’t very good at landing them. It especially doesn’t help that a 7 went out of her way to land me for a LTR… while I was in a wheel chair.

    So, what’s the key? It’s not “be yourself”, like all of that stupid advice you hear. No, it’s “be yourself WHO IS A PILLAR”. A Dominant Man is simply not moved; he only ever moves when it suits him. Once you know what you are, you simply agree to do the things that suit you. So if you’re thinking about Law or a field with a lot of office work, the first thing important is to have a good understanding of your environment. Then, make it fun, but never let anyone push you around. That’s what does most guys in and separates the ones ground under from the ones that rise above: Never cower to anyone and don’t ever take a threat idly. Most of the time the HR rules are required to be mostly gender-neutral. Never underestimate what forcing the rules to operate as they’re stated to operate can cause. (Also, never White Knight for anyone; be the Black Knight. If someone is attempting to abuse the rules, make sure you abuse it on them first. ) Past that, don’t care.

    Next, here’s a great point that, only upon reflection, did I come to. Whatever the topic or situation, you should only ever do 1 of 3 things:

    1) Plan to “do”.
    2) “Do” what you planned/had to perform ad hoc
    3) Don’t worry about it

    Never spend time worrying about worry. Never spend time just worrying. Either Plan, Do or Don’t Worry. You waste WAY too much energy worrying about things. This doesn’t mean that you don’t care about the important things; it just means you only care about what you need to care about.

    So, in the nature of relationships, care about your Game and what comes with that, but don’t worry about it. That just makes you less confident. Cashiers and waitresses are great venues to work on, as they have to talk to you. If you’re thinking Marriage, well, that one is a lot more sticky. But, Pre-nup is just an outright given, then select REALLY WELL. (You can hit Dalrock’s posts for thoughts on selecting well. ) But the entire point is to be comfortable in your skin and make that “skin” something others want to be around. There’s a lot of ways there, so you have to find one that works for your base personality.

    But, as the end of it all: you always need to go and “Do”. When it comes to College, take that approach there as well. Get your work done first thing, don’t let it slide (hey, I was guilty of that myself). Get it done quickly then have a good time. Your experiences are much more enjoyable when you’re not attempting to ignore looming deadlines. They’re not looming when the work is done. :) Take that approach to the rest of life. Get done what’s important, first, then enjoy the time you create for yourself without anything extra looming. It makes for very relaxed evenings and a relaxed you. A relaxed you is a much more confident you.

  358. Ton says:

    I want to double down on looking glasses advice. Get in the ring, get your ass kicked and kick some ass. When you approach a woman and you get nervous/ fearfully, think to yourself “this is ridiculous , I’ve fought men in the ring, faced down real physical harm. Being rejected is nothing.” Or something to that affect.

    Plus fight stories give them the tingles

  359. Looking Glass says:

    Having your bell rung once or twice helps put life in a nicer perspective. The “Power of Power” is not something to be underestimated, when it comes to building confidence. It’s hard to fear a 5’2″ woman when you know that, at any time, you could pick her up and literally throw her across the room. So why were you “afraid” of them in the first place? Oh yeah, because they were as big as you were until you were 13. That’s just not true anymore, as you age. :)

  360. Ton says:

    Lol, I don’t recall having approach anxiety before my marriage, but after…. I remember thinking to myself, WTF? I’ve fought men in the ring, with rifles etc etc this is bull$hit. It helps put things in perspective

  361. vascularity777 says:

    @ LookingGlass
    Outstanding advice. I’ll apply as I can as well.

  362. Looking Glass says:

    I should probably toss a little more context to my point about “Plan, Do or Don’t Worry”. I’ve always operated like that, for as long as I can remember, so it’s very much a part of my personality. Understanding that came about with the comment I made of “while I was in a wheel chair”. My physical state was pretty bad for a long while due to something out of everyone’s control. (i.e. rare genetic disorder; and, yes, I still pulled a 6.5 to 7 from there)

    Still, I had a conversation one time asking why I wasn’t depressed, when nearly all would be (given my state at the time and everything I’d lost). My response was I was too tired to be depressed, as that takes a lot of energy. But, when I have energy to spare, it’s very easy to waste it by dwelling on what needs to be done (I really don’t worry that much, so it’s less that, for me personally). So, amazingly, the trick isn’t to ever dwell on the task. Either do the task, plan for what you need to do (to perform the task) or simply do something else/don’t think about it. It’s quite the amazing energy & stress saver. It also let’s you get quite a lot more done, in your spare time.

  363. anon says:

    interesting, i really do have a little too much spare time on my hands and what you’re saying about needing energy to be depressed fits pretty well. Can you tell me more about how you manage those thoughts? Right now I just realized I missed some financial aid-related deadlines (didn’t check my to do list often enough.) It’s sunday so I can’t even ask the financial AID offices what my specific consequences will be, it could be better or worse than I what I expect. Now what I’m guessing you would do is realize that there is nothing you can do until the financial aid office opens on monday and responds to your email, worry about it then, and focus your energy on something more productive. However, I’m having a hard time doing this for some reason-I keep telling myself to think about that book report, which I CAN work on, but I think I need to something more.

    How do you plan for a social interaction? I think one of my problems is I don’t have anything interesting to talk to people about-no one wants to hear about video games. I’ll feel pretty stupid if I try to talk to someone but have nothing to say. But is there anything else I should be prepared for? I think I have to throw away all my assumptions and start from the beginning again.

  364. Ton says:

    Jiu Jitsu would give you something to talk about, and something to take your mind off these things until Monday

    Plan for social interactions; where do you go to interact with people and women, what do you want out of meeting them? Those two questions dictate the rest.

    Ex. I go to the gym 7 times a week. The goal is to get stronger, meet chicks. I don’t talk to anyone until the main lift is complete. I do this for three reasons #1) getting stronger is goal #1 in my life #2) I am more sociable after hitting good numbers #3) people are more willing to chat with me after I hit good numbers. I scan the gym to figure out which girls seem approachable and what route my conversation will go while I rack the weight. I talk with random people before I approach the girl. Then I figure out how to be in the same corner o the gym with the target…. then talk with her.

    Coffee shop, pizza joint, etc look to see which girls are approachable, talk to other random people 1st, figure out something easy but situation appropriate to say, and let it rip. Ask questions, make silly comments about the stuff around you, but never saying remotely negative about yourself or others. And never ever tell her she’s hot cute etc. Compliment her style or taste in coffee etc if you want to say something nice to her about her.

  365. anon says:

    I really think need to work on being less negative. And how to talk with random people.

  366. Looking Glass says:

    @anon:

    On the financial aid stuff, you can probably check to see what your options are (that’s a “Plan”) or just wait out until Monday. Go in, take your lumps and do what you can. We all mess up in life. Just admit it, address the problem as best you can and move on. But NEVER beg. It’s so unbecoming of anyone.

    On “getting school work done”, here’s a different tactic: where do you have the most distractions? If, like me, it was actually your dorm room, the trick is simply relocating to do work. It’s much easier to think “I’m walking out the door, down to the library” than think about each of your tasks while dwelling on that next SC2 or LoL or Dota2 or Madden or CoD game. (or HoN if you play that) We are creatures of environments, so changing the scenery is a great way to change the way things are going.

    At the same time, take your leisure seriously as well. You really shouldn’t be off doing something just to avoid doing something else. That only builds more stress. (Now, building Stress actually has its utility for memory storage, but I’ll get to that in a little bit) Learn to do the things you need and not worry about the ones you aren’t doing. It’s not easy, trust me on that, but it is something you can learn to do via practice. Plus, once you have everything done, you’ll wonder why you didn’t do that in the first place. (Hint, your body probably liked the stress, at some level, as it levels our nutrition issues but at the cost of long-term health)

    How did I deal with depressive thoughts? Good question. For a bit in the early stages of my issues, there was a very good possibility it might kill me. So, at some level, the actual gravity of the situation makes it easier to not be depressed. You simply lack the option of getting out of the situation: which means you either deal with what you can or you don’t. Lacking a grey area is a big benefit for those in a nasty place that’s very real. (I think this contributes to the massively depressed coming from those with actual options, as the situation is self-perceived to be worse.)

    But there are tricks. The first realize this comes from someone with a 150 IQ and was doing graduate-level mathematics before all of this happened: Stop thinking. Do. Don’t think. I’m now going to lay down one of the strangest analogies you’ll ever come across for medicine. Think of your Brain as the US Federal Government. There is, technically, someone at the “top”, but who really runs it all? Eh, no one, actually. It runs itself, as a measure of the collective responses/choices/wills of the individuals, but it is not really “run” by any one particular entity.

    Now, someone that’s depressed ends up being quite a bit like an important Project stuck in Project Planning Committee Y, which reports to Sub-committee Z, which will vote on a proposal to send the Project’s Environmental Impact Study Planning Proposal to the appropriate Federal bureaucracy. The EPA will report back in 9-18 months. A MASSIVE amount of papers are written, committees meet, plans are negotiated and planned for action. And, 2 years later, nothing useful has been accomplished except giving all of the public employees step raises. Not an effective way to run your brain, is it?

    Which means the trick is to be George f****** Patton, read Rommel’s book and beat the bastards. This is the power of “Do” not “Think about Doing”. (At the biochemical level, exterior stimulus is very different from interior stimulus) So, it’s a matter of just “Do”. Take that little bit of energy/Will you might have and flip the entire system on its head. This is the reason Confidence is where you build your entire persona off. (From the Christian side of things, there’s a reason you “build on the Rock”. We don’t call them “Leaps of Faith” for nothing. You have Confidence you’re following God’s Will, especially when you simply can’t see the outcome. ) It’s not that you don’t care about your surroundings. It’s that you don’t let them master you. You only have a Control of a few things in life, mostly just yourself. Choose carefully who you ever give any power over you, and never give up any freely to any human.

    This is why Confidence is sexually attractive to Women. That which cannot be controlled means you don’t follow them, they have to follow you. It fits right in with their psychology.

    Now, I do have a few tricks to help with some of this:
    http://www.amazon.com/Now-Foods-Alpha-Veg-Capsules-60-Count/dp/B001RYKA3U
    Get yourself a bottle. 1 pill for a study session. 2 pills for a big test. Don’t take more than 4 times per week and never take them without doing something mentally strenuous. I call it “Will in a Bottle”. For you, it won’t be that effective, however it works. (I can send links to biochemical breakdowns of the production paths and studies on the effects, if someone wants.) Oh, and it’ll help Lifting/heavy workouts. It’s worth 10-12% on Max Lifts. No joke.

    As for what to talk about? You seem to be in the “need lines” modes. That’s not the way it works. You need the ability to simply talk about what is at hand. If you want practice, find something in your room that’s mundane. Then talk about the interesting aspects of it. When you can talk about interesting bits of a Pen for 5 minutes, you should be fine. Guys are “interesting” because they’re “interesting”, not because they have done lots of interesting things. But, once you’ve done a few “interesting” things, feel free to use those if they’re appropriate. Still, you need to remember that since few people actually do anything “interesting”, they rarely have the ability to understanding the truly interesting aspects… unless you can expound upon them.

    Truth be told, I can expound on a Lamp for 3-4 hours. Though anyone that’s heard me do that knows I pull that off by talking about the nature of Language for 99% of the time. But the point isn’t to make people feel stupid, it’s to give them an enjoyable conversation. Which is another trick to all of this. Relationships are a side-product to the work. It’s a better “you” first. Once you have a “center” to work from, most of the work isn’t too hard.

    Though, there’s some side problems. You occasionally realize it’s probably wise to avoid escalation tactics in a number of environments. I unintentionally flirt with most waitresses. And nurses. (You know how much better doctors appts are when the nurses pop out to say “hi” to you? And they’re 8s?) And while I’m not a bad looking guy, I’m not going to knock them over with looks. Especially when the nurses know how bad my physical state is. Yet it’s hard to say your day isn’t made when a 23 year old HB 8-9 with a nice set of Cs comes bounding around the corner just to say “hi”. ( I should probably also say she was married, but that probably doesn’t help matters)

    @Ton:

    7 days a week at the Gym is too much. Past maybe some light workout/flexibility stuff, you shouldn’t need more than 4 days per week. More than that and you’re overdoing it (slowing progression). If you’re there doing like dailies handstands (so lowish intensity/high rep stuff), that’s a little different.

  367. Looking Glass says:

    @anon:

    I can be supremely negative, with an extremely refined level of self-criticism. Doesn’t have a lot to do about being a dominant and confident man. No one just needs to know concerns unless it’s useful for them to know. :)

    We’re probably all screwed in the First World due to our addiction to public debt. Doesn’t stop me from being Awesome. :)

  368. anon says:

    @looking glass
    Thanks for your concern about the financial aid problem but apparently I still have a good-sized surplus to burn through (and only 2 more semesters to go.) I really just brought it up as an example of poor anxiety management on my part. Seems like these things usually turn out better than I think they will (and trying to remember how to do arm bars and triangles helped too.)

    I’ll have to read the rest of your post a few more times before I can respond to it though…and get some sleep.

  369. Ton says:

    Normally its 4 days a week with 3 days of 2 a day. It has to be set up that way. Not much left in the tank after I squat or deadlift so I come back latter for assistance work. I total 1805 & not likely to take gym advice from anyone who doesn’t total more then me.

  370. Spacetraveller says:

    Dee and imnobody,

    “Althol Kay’s site tells wives to keep up their looks as long as possible, so their men won’t get bored and be tempted to cheat. So, basically, years of good service as a wife aren’t enough.

    Biology’s heartless.

    As a Christian, I accept this. It’s part of the “Man’s (as in human’s) fallen nature”. Men and women get turned on by qualities that have little to do with goodness.”

    and…

    “Right. If it is something that I hate about being a man, it’s exactly that. Life would be easier for me if I could be happy with an ugly woman. But I can’t: I am not wired this way. I have tried once and again.

    But this can’t be changed. What can be changed is that society admits this instead of telling BS like “beauty is on the inside” or “men are shallow because they only like hot women”.

    If this was an universally accepted truth, it would be easier for everyone: men and women.”

    I am VERY impressed that you two so humbly admit this. On a male site more dedicated to admonishing rampant female tendencies to crave ‘alpha bad boys’ I am (almost) shocked to see this frank admission from men.

    I say ‘almost’ because this is a Christian blog, so it is actually not so surprising afterall to see your comments. Honesty is indeed a frequent virtue seen here.

    Anyhow, I think I have a way of assuaging your ‘guilt’ at not fancying the ugly girls.

    It has ALWAYS been the tradition that even ugly women are beautified to the best level possible, to give them a chance at attracting men. Think make-up, beauty advice passed on from mother to daughter, (and these days, plastic surgery).

    Inbuilt in every woman, is the knowledge that men are indeed visual. So every woman will maximise her assets as best she can.

    What feminism has done (as you rightly point out, imnobody), is to persuade women that they don’t need to try anymore, that somehow a new generation of men are being born that have lost their visual nature.

    Well this is false advice, And it encourages laziness in women.

    So you guys should not worry about this. Even the ugliest woman has the capability of improving her lot.

    This woman did exactly that:

    Whilst I don’t condone her deception, I think she was harshly dealt with by her husband – the baby isn’t even ugly. :-)

  371. kios says:

    Has anyone read the book ‘The End of Sex — How Hookup Culture Is Leaving a Generation Unhappy, Sexually Unfulfilled, and Confused About Intimacy’ by Donna Freitas? Apparently it’s the result of 8 years of research. and it doesn’t just blame men!!! Feminists get it too according to an article i read about it.

  372. Looking Glass says:

    @Tom:

    The implication from your previous post was that you were close to your RM (1, 3 or 5 rep) more than a few times per week. Which no amount of “I won’t listen to anyone else” would change the fact you’re going to shred some ligaments soon, assuming your body wouldn’t break down period after 2 weeks. It would seem you only lift heavy 3 days a week and do cardio/other stuff 7 days a week, which isn’t much of an issue.

    Or you’re pinning right now.

    @Spacetraveller:

    Most women can be pretty acceptable by straight teeth and low weight. Then be nice. Which probably says more about the Feminists and their Apex Fallacy problem than we like to acknowledge.

    I don’t think you’ll find much argument that quite a lot of us would like to select only for personality. We still have physical bodies and those bodies still have desires that aren’t under our control.

    On the Chinese case, it really was about the lying. The 100k(!!!) in cosmetic surgeries is such a huge issue that there’s no way to trust the wife at that point. He’d come home every night with a pretty big thought of “what else isn’t she telling me?”.

  373. Spacetraveller says:

    Looking Glass,
    “Most women can be pretty acceptable by straight teeth and low weight.”

    I hear ya. On a general level, what you say is true. But on an individual level, a man will always pick a hotter woman over a dowdy one, given a choice. Which is natural. And which imnobody and Dee are lamenting over.
    And it is the equivalent of a woman picking a confident man over the ‘Supplicating Nice Guy’. Which is also natural. And most women won’t apologise for this :P

    See – every woman is competing against the next woman – so in a world of 5’s, the 6 will win. But if that 6 moves into an area of 7’s, she will lose…It’s all relative.
    But every woman CAN get up that SMV ladder if only by one rung or two, yes. So the 6 in the land of 7’s could compete quite successfully if she tried.

    I get what you say about trust issues. I too don’t agree with that Chinese woman’s omission of the truth (I am not sure it is outright lying insofar as no-one actually asked her ‘were you previously ugly?’ to which she replied ‘No’ lol – to be somewhat anal about it).
    But she could have somehow weaved it into the conversation during the time they were dating that she used to be ugly. Perhaps the man wouldn’t have cared…as her past ugliness was not ‘in his face’ NOW.

    But this whole story is rather bizarre, isn’t it? How handsome was this guy if he thought his wife must have been unfaithful because the child was not beautiful enough??
    It wasn’t about ‘the kid doesn’t look like me’ which is a reasonable prelude to suspect cuckoldry, but rather ‘the kid is ugly, it can’t possibly be mine’!
    On one level, this in itself is hilarious…but in the wider context of this story, of course it’s not…

  374. Ton says:

    lol I’m never not pinning, and support gear saves wear and tear. There is also frequent exercises rotation, massages, chiropractor care, rest schedule, deloading, nutrition,and other factors. However, raw lifters can train almost as often if they build up the work load. I have coach, he is one of the best, but you got to understand I’m at the point where random advice on the interwebz is useless and higher end athletes often prove the “experts” wrong. Or western experts. The Soviets had things figured out

    Our farming fore father’s did a lot more work on the farm, 7 days a week then we ever do in the gym

  375. greyghost says:

    China gets it. The video shows the feminine imperative at work in the west. Imagine a world where women don’t have the priviledge to lie with consequence. Think of the feminie politeness used to seduce a man that can never be let down other wise it will be known as a lieing act. The herd shift in what is actractive will change no doubt. Very interesting spacetraveler.

  376. Looking Glass says:

    @Ton:

    I understand where you’re coming from. Doesn’t change the point I made from the information I had at the time. ^_^ You talked about racking a bar, being at a gym 7 days a week working out and using that as a common way to open. For 99.9% of the human population, my direct response is the correct one. Be happy to be the rare exception!

    I wouldn’t say the Soviets had better systems or understanding. Just different approaches. Depending on what you *want* out of your workouts, that’s where the PoVs become important. But if you’re lifting somewhere around a 400/700/700 split (I’m assuming you meant a 3 lift split by your totals), it also means you’ve been at it for a number of years, so your tolerances are very different. Which is why the end-scale athlete can “prove the experts wrong”, at least to their own mind. (It’s a lot more complicated than that, but unless advice is directed to the top 1% of the population, you’re going to lose everyone when you start talking about muscle fiber expression patterns and neuro-musclar recruitment. Further, end-scale athletes need systems tailored to their physiology, as most that are capable of that level of athletic prowess are already 2 SD or higher on a number of performance related hormones [or, more realistically, the enzymes that create them]. As such, your system, tailored for you, wouldn’t necessarily work so well for someone with a currently similar lifting capacity.)

    If you can’t guess, I come at this from the biochemistry/medical side of things. I spend enough time hacking my own physiology, so it comes with the territory. :)

    For anyone that read this far and actually cares: it’s injections of testosterone. Though I’ve never actually seen why it’s called “pinning” specifically. (I doubt highly you normally had to pin down someone else to give it to them…) But, nomenclature be nomenclature.

    @Spacetraveller:

    Given the language & cross-cultural nature of the reporting, I wouldn’t stretch the accuracy too far. The child not looking quite as expected was probably a big tip off, and things went from there. It’s sad, all around, for certain. Still, the single biggest cost investment in your life is probably worth mentioning to your spouse (or potential ones).

  377. Deti “Most women are following this model because it seems to be working. There are still men willing to wife up the slut after she is done on the carousel.”

    I would say this has lost quite a bit of momentum. Due to the limited availability of financially well off men an the age of TRADCON (w/ kids) / weekend cougar. Many women I know are having a very very difficult time finding men. In addition, for the ones who did find someone to marry guy #2 who is financially well off is getting the boot for a “newer younger model”.

    I suspect there is are a quite a few less second divorcees getting married than what there were before. I strongly suspect there has been a decrease in 3rd marriages as well.
    The end result is a bitter red pill for women also- that what worked and has, no longer works.
    Eventually, men will just opt out of all contact with women in order to have their freedom while feminists will spend their last 40 years of their lives alone, talking to their girlfriends and cats.

  378. Pingback: People Should Love Their Partners Like Their Pets | Emma the Emo's Emo Musings

  379. pavetack says:

    @Michael Singer: Indeed, our gracious host has a category for posts investigating the question – “Remarriage Strike”. The Stats in http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/12/21/not-glad-tidings-for-post-marital-spinsters/ are pretty interesting. They’re from 2010. It will be interesting to see how they change at the next update.

  380. Pingback: It’s Dishonesty And Fraud, Not A Difference Of Opinion Or Worldview | The Black Pill

  381. The last unicorn says:

    I have to be honest guys, as a feminine woman of integrity it’s really discouraging to see so many men on the Internet whining and blaming meanwhile there are quality women like me who are starving to meet masculine men who want to defend our femininity.
    I know that I’m rare and lucky to have a father who nurtured and protected that from the time I was born and I got to witness the love and completeness that creates with my father’s relationship with my mother. However, when I came of age and started to look for men who worthy to share it, there were none. There were lots of men, sure, but they had developed into predator-like jackals and only focusing on “gaming and banging” on women who didn’t realize what a gift her virtues are. As a young, attractive and feminine woman my fears of being exploited and discarded were being confirmed every day.
    Now men, we love you. Some, like my father and brother, are doing their part to help foster and defend the honor of the true feminine/masculine dynamic. Please, from the sincere plea of the feminine woman, stop bellyaching like the betas and feminists you resent so much and go get your women!!! We’ve been waiting long enough!

  382. John says:

    @The last unicorn
    You’re asking the single men here to stop being “like the betas”, and you’re asking them to preserve conservative masculine and feminine values? Do you even realise these have nothing to do with each other? That’s why feminism sprouted in the first place. Men WERE conservative, but they were “beta”, because their wives had gina tingles for other men. Feminism was (and is) all about women not having to open their legs to beta males ever again. That’s why they wanted to destroy financial dependence on men. In other words, if the unmarried men on this forum asked you out in real life, you would just laugh at them. If they “acted alpha”, whatever that means to you, you would “see through it” and laugh at them. If by some chance you mean you just want to return to conservative values, fine, but don’t think that betas will turn into alphas by “preserving conservatives values”, because they already do, and yet they are beta (because women see them that way).

  383. Pingback: Let’s Clear Up this ‘Bitterness’ Thing | RedPillPushers

  384. monkeywerks says:

    I feel pretty pissed now that I understand why she left and the shit tests I failed with her and my rebound chick. But I also feel relieved that I was able to test out these theories and principles and see them work in a real life lab thus proving their truth and accuracy.

    Another thing that pisses me off is the AFC that try to pull be back into their barrel be telling me I don’t deserve a woman who I think should have certain qualities and that i am not good enough to be picky as to who i may want to commit to. In other words, because they have to settle for the first (only) woman that picks them they think I should also settle. I have had many convo’s with men and they get pissed when I tell them that I broke up with my reasonably hot OLDER gf because she was a slut (N20+). I guess its the men who do not have options want to discourage me who has them from exercising them so they feel better, WTF?

    In the end I don’t trust anything with a vag, and that is my bitterness. For the moment unless she really shines most women are just P&D material, unless she’s a virgin which is exceedingly rare to find. I guess my attitude is AWALT.

  385. monkeywerks says:

    Unicorn,
    Your name implies you are so rare as to be a fantasy as your comment truly denotes. You are like any other woman except maybe you have been more sexually pure. The same game will work on you as any other. Any man who understands the dynamics will be able to read you and see what your all about. Even though you may make him wait for sex, you would be one of the plates an aware man would be spinning.

    You would reject and nice guy beta out of hand. An alpha that tempered himself would make you drip with desire. Add is some muscles and good looks, some brains and its over for you.
    I have met and bedded many women like you in the past. A little beta at the right time with some alpha is all a man needs for such a unicorn. How do you know you are worth all of this effort when you will shit test any man you are with and you seem to out you perceived excellence on a pedestal? You plainly admit to your continuous shit testing in your comment BTW.

  386. Karley Heiman says:

    Re: A says:

    March 24, 2013 at 3:05 am

    > Exogenous factors are at play and women are taking full advantage (as men would if the shoe was on the other foot). Really? Was this the case when the shoe was on the other foot (say, in 1870)?

    Actually, yes. Up until the 20th century, men took full advantage of their hegemony. In divorce, they got the children 100% of the time; money? women rarely had access to family money and were restricted from education, certain jobs (most professions) and, if left widowed, were often dependent on other male family members i.e., she’d best remarry fast if she didn’t want to end up homeless. Voting? Access to power of any kind politically?

    Honest to God, this website which uses the words “slut” and “whore” etc. and cries like little babies because they can’t find a virgin to marry and not leave him even if she gets sick of his selfish entitlement to make all final decisions and thus do whatever HE wants is pathetic. Outside of this sickness which is common in the minority of Christians overall (seems to be re-emerging in evangelical circles) men and women go about their lives, married and unmarried, and love each other without trying to DOMINATE the other. Feminism (the “F” word here) is something beyond anything Dalrock et al could possibly understand let alone accept for what it is: Fair legal rules that don’t punish women OR men for desiring good employment (yes, many women desire to work and are just as intelligent and emotionally stable as men). The Ozzy and Harriet ideal for marriage that’s constantly referred to in this echo chamber doesn’t actually exist. When I read the stuff on this site blaming women who step outside the Stepford Wife role being denigrated and referred to as sluts, it makes me what to retch. You say you’re not “misogynists?” Yeah? Well, define misogyny for me and give an example because all I see here is just that. The repulsive, demeaning, emotionally-charged labels you have for any female who isn’t a sacrificial virgin when she marries is just such an example of your bias and misogyny. Like Mark Driscoll, who pays lip-service to not being a chauvinist or misogynist, it’s laughable when seen from intelligent, confident men and women who SHARE power and control in a loving relationship. It’s called cooperation and it is what characterizes mature, adult loving relationships. Keep dreaming of your submissive wife and vocally demeaning and degrading women who don’t accept that and you’ll remain BITTER and HATE-FILLED.

  387. Opus says:

    I think we have one angry outraged misandrist (define that for me Karley!) with yet more invitation for the readers of Dalrock to dine on yet more cake.

  388. I’m glad when women like Karley “out” themselves as a reminder why it’s better to be single than to be with someone as acidic and bitter as her.

  389. JDG says:

    Actually, yes. Up until the 20th century, men took full advantage of their hegemony. In divorce, they got the children 100% of the time; money? women rarely had access to family money

    Yes men got 100% child custody, yet divorce was very rare. Men were responsible for all debts acquired by the wife as well as crimes she committed (even going to prison), and she did not have to use her own money to pay them down. And yes women did have money.

    and were restricted from education, certain jobs (most professions) and, if left widowed, were often dependent on other male family members i.e., she’d best remarry fast if she didn’t want to end up homeless.

    Women had doctorates and careers, only they did not try to foolishly mix those with rearing children and home making. Being dependent on male family members is much better than being dependent on a cold uncaring one size fits all government. Either way women are dependent as a group.

    Voting? Access to power of any kind politically

    There used to be a family vote that was reasonable and balanced. Now there is an individual vote with naive women voting for things like publicly funded abortion, contraceptives, and other entitlements.

    Women in power has given us preference for female police officers, female firefighters, female pilots, female military personnel, female students, and females in general. Standards are lowered and quotas must be filled. This means less efficiency and service as well as fewer competent mothers and wives as women try to have the best of both worlds.

    men and women go about their lives, married and unmarried, and love each other without trying to DOMINATE the other.

    All marriages have someone who ‘dominates’ as you put it. In a marriage like you describe it is the woman. In a Patriarchy it is (hopefully) a man. God has ordained the patriarchy model. Who speaks for your model?

    Fair legal rules that don’t punish women OR men for desiring good employment (yes, many women desire to work and are just as intelligent and emotionally stable as men).

    This is not feminism you are describing. You are describing humanism, which is another false ideology much like feminism. Feminism is an ideology that seeks what is considered the best of all scenarios at the expense of the rest of the population. It influences laws and society so as to denigrate men and children alike for the ‘advancement’ of women. It lies and deceives so as to convince its supporters to believe that a woman is really the same as a man when anybody with two eyes and a normal thinking brain can see that they are not. Women are not as emotionally stable as men. You are fooling yourself if you truly believe this.

    Misogyny – two definitions:
    1) anything a feminist finds offensive
    2) telling a woman she is no different than a man

    I’m going for number two.

    Let me repeat what wrote an another thread you visited:
    Feminism IS all about getting the perceived best for women at the expense of everyone else. It was a lie from the beginning and it is a lie today. What you consider derogatory was once thought noble and rewarding. What you call equal choice is just special privileges for adult females.
    Now quit bothering the men folk and get back in the kitchen and make us some sammiches.

  390. JDG says:

    typo s/b – on another thread you visited:

  391. MarcusD says:

    find a virgin to marry

    I’ve never really understood why feminists hate that idea so much. Do you, Karley, hate that idea?

    Anyway, I find it strange that you’re using the same tactics that you accuse the commenters here of using.

    The repulsive, demeaning, emotionally-charged labels you have for any female who isn’t a sacrificial virgin when she marries is just such an example of your bias and misogyny.

    Bias, perhaps. Misogyny, no. You’re a lot like the left-wingers from a few decades ago (and currently) who used the word “fascist” as an insult for anything you don’t like (rather than actual fascism). Frankly, I think that anyone who holds a woman to any standard has been labelled a misogynist at some point (waiting until marriage is a biblical command, by the way). I would suggest that you also recognize your own confirmation bias, as well.

  392. MarcusD says:

    Karley’s feminist score (per semantic analysis) is quite high. Might explain a few things.

  393. I find it strange that you’re using the same tactics that you accuse the commenters here of using.

    I don’t – it’s a standard bullying tactic – accuse your target of misbehaving all the while using the exact same tactics.

  394. MarcusD says:

    and cries like little babies because they can’t find a virgin to marry

    Really? Where? You state that it’s the entire website, so I’m curious where that has happened.

    and not leave him even if she gets sick of his selfish entitlement

    I’ll let others respond to this one.

    this sickness

    We know you don’t agree with our [core] views, but perhaps you could explain how it is a “sickness”? Are you using a special definition?

    which is common in the minority of Christians overall

    [Strange wording]

    men and women go about their lives, married and unmarried, and love each other without trying to DOMINATE the other

    How do you know this?

    Fair legal rules that don’t punish women OR men for desiring good employment

    That’s what the men’s rights movement is about, too. Can you understand that?

    many women desire to work and are just as intelligent

    Ummm… Halpern, Diane F., and Mary L. LaMay. “The smarter sex: A critical review of sex differences in intelligence.” Educational Psychology Review 12.2 (2000): 229-246. (based on the content, not the title, thanks).

    and emotionally stable as men

    Ummm… no: Lynn, Richard, and Terence Martin. “Gender differences in extraversion, neuroticism, and psychoticism in 37 nations.” The Journal of social psychology 137.3 (1997): 369-373.

    The Ozzy and Harriet ideal for marriage that’s constantly referred to in this echo chamber doesn’t actually exist.

    How do you mean that it “doesn’t actually exist”? I’ve witnessed it myself. Are you just saying it’s uncommon?

    When I read the stuff on this site blaming women who step outside the Stepford Wife role being denigrated and referred to as sluts

    Which hasn’t actually happened. You’re free to make up such stories, but you should mark it as fiction for those who may be reading just your post.

    Well, define misogyny for me and give an example because all I see here is just that.

    Well, “hatred of women” is the definition commonly used here. If all you see here is misogyny, why not point out a specific example? Also, “all” is a logically significant word, as you are using it. Basically, you are saying every last thing here is “misogynistic” (which it clearly isn’t). You are either being hyperbolic, or you have a significant pre-existing bias against the people who comment here.

    The repulsive, demeaning, emotionally-charged labels you have for any female who isn’t a sacrificial virgin when she marries

    Something tells me you’d re-label an example of misanthrophy as an example of misogyny. Again, you are displaying confirmation bias (and cherry-picking).

    it’s laughable when seen from intelligent, confident men and women who SHARE power and control in a loving relationship

    Who divorces at higher rates? That’s right, “intelligent, confident men and women who SHARE power and control” (e.g. egalatarian marriage).

    Sources:

    Lyngstad, Torkild Hovde, and Marika Jalovaara. “A review of the antecedents of union dissolution.” Demographic Research 23.10 (2010): 257-292.

    Kaufman, Gayle. “Do gender role attitudes matter? Family formation and dissolution among traditional and egalitarian men and women.” Journal of Family Issues 21.1 (2000): 128-144.

    It’s called cooperation and it is what characterizes mature, adult loving relationships.

    Sharing power is a subset of cooperation; patriarchal marriage is also a subset of cooperation. In fact, I would check the definition of “cooperation” if I were you.

    Keep dreaming of your submissive wife and vocally demeaning and degrading women who don’t accept that and you’ll remain BITTER and HATE-FILLED.

    This is where practice != preach.

  395. MarcusD says:

    “egalatarian” should be “egalitarian”

  396. JDG says:

    Karley’s feminist score (per semantic analysis) is quite high. Might explain a few things.

    Yep! I recognized the indoctrinated claptrap as I was reading it. I’ve heard it all before, usually from freshly indoctrinated students or long time Borg members of academia.

  397. Feminism (the “F” word here) is something beyond anything Dalrock et al could possibly understand let alone accept for what it is: Fair legal rules that don’t punish women OR men for desiring good employment (yes, many women desire to work and are just as intelligent and emotionally stable as men).

    No, the “F” word here is for Fail, as you spew your ignorant tripe. Bonus solipsism points for saying that Feminism results in fair legal rules. Also, good job using histrionics & shaming tactics to get the men to react to you.
    I’ll just grab some popcorn while you feed your cats. *crunch* To quote someone you should know:
    “Karley. I’m laughing at the ‘superior intellect.’ “

  398. jf12 says:

    Recap: An empathetic man gives some manly advice, encouraging in its way like a punch on the shoulder instead of a pat on the back, just what was needed, to a man who is anguishing about his heartsick feelings of disillusionment and lamenting the inevitable loss of romantic feelings that accompanies realizing how badly women exploit kind men.

    And a woman chimes in to explain how men are heartless brutes etc.

  399. She’s just a troll. There was absolutely nothing in her screed filled comment that is even worthy of a response. Don’t dignify her, shun only. Don’t feed the trolls.

  400. jf12 says:

    In complete accordance with and strict adherence to my still-inchoate Grand Unified Theory of All Of This, Ms. Heiman reveals her apex fallacy, and thus projecting her own sexual preferences, via labeling men-in-charge as brutal towards women. Imagine me now taking a bow, and holding it until you realize what I just said in the previous sentence and you begin to applaud.

  401. Bluepillprofessor says:

    Brothers I thank you for this blog and the insightful commentary. The Red Pill is indeed a bitter pill to swallow but it is important to remember a couple things:

    Once you learn game, even as in my case in a committed LT marriage your life improves a LOT.
    Women (and Men) are fallen creatures. Women (and Men) are naturally evil and will destroy you- if you let them. The big difference is that our society has feminized men and masculinized women. Thus women lose attraction and men become angry and bitter that everything we have been told is a lie. No women do not want a supplicating Beta. Get angry. Get mad. Then go DO! Learn game, get in shape, learn a martial art, lift weights like there is not tomorrow, recognize and pass her shit tests- and make your life better. Game your wife! It is a very Christian thing to do.
    Remember for Christians it is mandated to love the sinner (women) but also to hate the sin (society, feminism, and typical female behaviors like hypergamy/solopsism). When you hate the sin but not the sinner you can respond to the sin (i.e. shit test) calmly and rationally and with authority.
    Understand taking the Red Pill is a complete loss of an entire world view that is like a death in the family. It takes time, it is painful, it will involve all the stages of Grief (Denial, Anger, Sadness, Acceptance). DO NOT get stuck in any of the first 3 stages for long. Remember: Women Talk. Men DO.

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