What if a wife doesn’t regulate the couple’s sex life?

In the discussion of the last post Spacetraveller asks:

Is there never a ‘saturation point’ where …um…marital relations are concerned? Whilst I totally ‘get’ that a man has earned the ‘right’ to ‘easy’ access to his own wife, is there such a thing as ‘too easy’?

Perhaps this question is evidence of my own ‘projection’. But I wonder if there is some truth to my theory??
(I guess my question would be already answered if ‘Mrs. Yes’ had already posted her husband’s reaction to her year-long ‘trial’. But as yet, she hasn’t, and I am curious as to the effect on a man if his wife never said no. Even if this were a realistic scenario (that she never says no), my question is, does this bring with it a whole new level of problems, i.e. a certain lack of respect for wife?)

Right off the bat, there is no worry about the wife seeming too “easy”.  They are married, so this simply doesn’t apply.

But to the larger question of what it is like, what happens is the couple gets incredibly close.  You don’t need to wait for Mr. Yes’ response, because he may not be eager to write about something so personal on a blog.  Mrs. Yes already described it:

Yes.  We have always been affectionate – although not in the normal ways.  We have never been the type to end a call with “I love you” or leave for work with a kiss.  Our affection is usually shown by holding hands, sitting together and having some physical contact.  A hug or squeeze as we cook dinner or go about our lives.  I do think that we are more affectionate and I think where I see this the most is actually in bed – but not during sex.  We snuggle up more as we settle in for the night, after sex and just while we sleep.  While we have always held hands out and about – he now reaches for my hand pretty immediately as we get out of the car these days.

How it manifests will vary based on the nature of the couple itself, but it will be an incredible closeness.  Husbands who don’t get rejected don’t shy away from physical affection because they feel really close and don’t fear rejection if they get aroused. Imagine a scenario where you build a fire and have an unlimited supply of firewood.  Whenever one of you wants, you are free to throw another log on the fire.  Paradoxically you end up with both periods of more intense heat and passion as well as moments where the fire has burned down nicely and it is pleasantly warm.  You don’t get those wonderful glowing coals by being stingy with the wood.

For my wife and I not only are we very physically affectionate, we also talk a great deal.  Our daughter has commented numerous times that when we go out to a restaurant the other parents don’t talk to each other.  When they do talk it is pretty much just to the kids.  We talk to the kids too of course, but according to our daughter at least we are always talking to each other.  My wife describes the periods of “pleasant warmth” as being like a never ending slumber party, and we very often do end up staying up laughing and talking late into the night.

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124 Responses to What if a wife doesn’t regulate the couple’s sex life?

  1. A Northern Observer says:

    “My wife describes the periods of “pleasant warmth” as being like a never ending slumber party”

    Would that more people set that as their goal instead of never-ending “Excitement”

  2. Lori says:

    I have noticed that frequently also. When I see couples having a good time together…holding hands, flirting, talking, etc. I always look for the rings and seldom see them. It’s all backwards. Married couples should be acting like dating couples. This would be the greatest testimony to the beauty of marriage.

  3. taterearl says:

    It’s amazing how sex saturated this society is that married women would consider themselves “easy” by giving in to their husband.

    Newsflash: God made sex to be okay in marriage and marriage only. Nobody calls a lady a whore by having sex with her husband. It’s more concerning in a marriage when sex isn’t going on.

  4. ianironwood says:

    That’s what a good Red Pill marriage is all about. It’s amazing the kind of dragons a man feels up to slaying when he’s getting his sword properly sharpened on a regular basis.

  5. sunshinemary says:

    My wife describes the periods of “pleasant warmth” as being like a never ending slumber party, and we very often do end up staying up laughing and talking late into the night.

    Yes! That’s exactly what it’s like, having a slumber party with your best friend. Our children, too, have commented on our talking and laughing together at night. It’s one of the loveliest parts of a permanent marriage. Marriage can be really fun if you actually like the person you’re married to.

  6. TMG says:

    The vast majority of men want to be kind to their wives, and even if they know they have free reign they will put her first and foremost. Speaking personally, when I was in relationships I would have rather had my left thumb cut off then know that something I was doing was causing trauma to my partner. Traditionalism and feminism have observed the most base and dysfunctional men and projected their behavior on all men. So women walk around paranoid that if they don’t put a leash on their husbands he’s going to go Rapey McRaperson. Not so. And the few men who would probably had all kinds of qualities that indicated they were not suitable to marry.

  7. Jeremy says:

    The fact that anyone can seriously think that a married woman could possibly be thought of as “easy” because of how easily she shares herself with her mate is proof positive of feminisms grand failure to truly liberate women. I can think of no greater condemnation of the movement.

  8. sunshinemary says:

    ST asked if making oneself sexually available to one’s husband and never saying no will cause a man to have “a certain lack of respect for [his] wife”. I can only imagine the answer is NO, but I’m not a man, so I can’t answer it. Maybe some men can confirm if that’s the case.

    [D: I might not have been clear enough on this then. No. Never.]

  9. taterearl says:

    “ST asked if making oneself sexually available to one’s husband and never saying no will cause a man to have “a certain lack of respect for [his] wife”. I can only imagine the answer is NO, but I’m not a man, so I can’t answer it. Maybe some men can confirm if that’s the case.”

    To me it sounds nothing more than projection. I doubt in the history of mankind any man losing love for his wife who never refuses a sexual request.

  10. Dalrock says:

    @Taterearl

    Newsflash: God made sex to be okay in marriage and marriage only. Nobody calls a lady a whore by having sex with her husband. It’s more concerning in a marriage when sex isn’t going on.

    1 Corinthians 7:1-5 in modern language.

  11. T says:

    I have heard men say that there are somethings that women shouldn’t do in bed because their husbands will lose respect for them. I’m sure that what these things are varies from man to man and depends on his personal morals.

  12. deti says:

    SSM:

    A wife who is sexually available all the time will NOT–repeat, NOT — cause a husband to have “a certain lack of respect” for her. A wife who is sexually available will cause her husband to love her more and grow closer to her. Remember that a husband is not called to respect his wife. He is called to love her.

    A wife who consistently refuses sex or makes herself sexually available makes him believe she does not want him and does not respect him. Her refusal to give herself to him is insulting and disrespectful, and he senses this viscerally.

    Personally, I believe a woman’s consistent and chronic refusal of sex to a husband is essentially marital abandonment, and grounds for divorce.

  13. Dalrock says:

    @T

    I have heard men say that there are somethings that women shouldn’t do in bed because their husbands will lose respect for them. I’m sure that what these things are varies from man to man and depends on his personal morals.

    Snoring? Eating crackers? I really, truly, don’t want to get into a detailed discussion of the morality of different sex acts here (so please don’t). But if it isn’t immoral and he wants it, he isn’t going to look down on her for being loving.

  14. deti says:

    T:

    Those men are wrong, deluded, or giving answers they think women want to hear.

    [D: This is just another reframe from T.]

  15. Paul says:

    SSM: Let’s see if I can help you out.

    As many guys posting here have described it, access to sex during marriage is an essential part of the marital contract, secular or religious, although explicitly part of the contract of a Biblical marriage (the no denying bit). Therefore, ‘never saying no’ is essential to honouring the marital contract. Most guys will have more respect for someone who honours their word than an oath-breaker. Therefore the answer should be NO. If it isn’t, then you’ve got much bigger problems to contend with.

  16. deti says:

    I would be more inclined to disrespect or fall out of love with a wife who refused sex or refused certain moral sex acts that I wanted, because she is shirking and disregarding her marital duties.

    Much as a wife would rightly disrespect and fall out of love with me if I decided to quit my six figure salary job and play video games all day, because I would be shirking and disregarding my marital duties.

  17. @ Dalrock,

    Wow, I appreciate this. I value your taking time out to answer my question – a whole post, no less.

    Hope you don’t mind if I address the responses to my question from the last post here.

    I almost did not ask the question. But now I am mighty glad I did. You don’t learn if you don’t ask.

    To those men who thought it a ‘stupid’ question, I understand that criticism. I have been called ‘stupid’ more than once here. Getting thick-skinned about it.

    What I think you men have to remember, is that sometimes (and I am personally very guilty of this), women have trouble believing that men can be that ‘simple’.* I am deadly serious.

    Which is why I wondered if my question was partly a ‘projection’ on my part.
    A woman easily gets ‘bored’ if a man ‘supplicates’ and is ‘too easy’ – you all know that. Even in marriage. Especially in marriage. Of this I am blatantly aware (and if I weren’t already, you guys have educated me on this).

    And to Anonymous Reader,

    “Is there ever a saturation point for attention paid to a woman? That is, can she ever get “too much” listening to her talk, “too much” affection, “too much” hand holding, “too much” flower-giving, etc.?”

    You MUST know the answer to this question is…YES!
    It is exactly what I describe above, and why permanently ‘beta’ men bite the dust…

    Do you now see where I am coming from?
    I wondered if men could have the same ‘problem’ on some level, (as women seem to) even though I was also aware that the rules of marriage are and should be different from the rules of dating/courtship. I do know that a man must not ‘court’ his wife over and over again. But we are not talking here of simple ‘wooing’ a wife.

    Yes, I never heard of a man complain that his wife was ‘too easy’. But then again, outside of the ‘Sphere, I never heard of men complain about anything. At all.
    A phenomenon I have often called ‘The Quiet Man’ on my blog.
    So I thought the question was worth asking.

    I am not married (yet).
    I have found that ‘officia’l pre-marriage courses are sadly nothing more than a ‘tick box’ exercise, I am afraid. This blog is my best pre-marriage course so far.

    So from time to time, you will encounter my ‘stupid’ questions. :-)
    They will be extreme and perhaps esoteric, but there will always be a good reason to ask them.

    *I first heard the ‘men are simple’ meme as a kind of feminist misandrist slogan, which was intended to mean ‘men are idiotic’. Then when I later heard the same slogan from men themselves (eg. on Manosphere blogs), it now had a new meaning: ‘men are uncomplicated’.
    I had trouble believing either meaning…although I am slowly agreeing to the latter, with my increasing ‘education’ about men.

  18. driversuz says:

    ” Husbands who don’t get rejected don’t shy away from physical affection because they feel really close and don’t fear rejection if they get aroused.”

    This is going to be my next Quote of the Week. It says SO MUCH about men that women don’t know, and seemingly can’t be bothered to learn.

  19. deti says:

    Women, if you do not want to have good regular sex with your husbands, and you don’t want to make yourselves sexually available to your husbands, and there are certain things he wants to do but you refuse to do them,

    then something is really, really wrong in your marriages, and you wives need to get to the bottom of it.

    And if you really felt this way about your husbands, then you were cruel and unfair to them by marrying men you weren’t in love with and weren’t attracted to in the first place. You never should have married them, but having now made your beds, you must lie in them and fulfill the marital duties you agreed to take on when you said “I do.”

  20. kiddoh says:

    I guess our situation is unique. I have always enjoyed sex, perhaps more than my husband and have never been one to turn him down. There have, however, been times that I have been turned down by HIM.

    I sometimes wonder if this robs him of the thrill of the chase. He knows I’m a sure thing. Also, if he decides against sex tonight, he knows that it will always be available tomorrow night, so there is no sense of urgency for him.

    As an aside: The one thing I have noted creating more closeness in our marriage is my ability to control my un-respectful reactions to him, especially in front of the children. The more I control looks of disgust, rolling my eyes etc., the more man he becomes. He is able to stop looking at me out of the corner of his eye after each sentence to gauge my reaction, which in turn, makes him more attractive to me. I congratulate myself on helping to create the man I desire.

  21. grey_whiskers says:

    @Spacetraveller on February 1, 2013 at 11:02 am –
    I first heard the ‘men are simple’ meme as a kind of feminist misandrist slogan, which was intended to mean ‘men are idiotic’. Then when I later heard the same slogan from men themselves (eg. on Manosphere blogs), it now had a new meaning: ‘men are uncomplicated’.

    I believe this pretty much covers it:

  22. Dalrock says:

    @Spacetraveller

    What I think you men have to remember, is that sometimes (and I am personally very guilty of this), women have trouble believing that men can be that ‘simple’.* I am deadly serious.

    You reference later in the same comment about men being uncomplicated, but I originally read this as pertaining to marriage, specifically biblical marriage. Going with the latter, you absolutely aren’t (or weren’t) alone. I would guess that 99% of pastors would be astonished if they could understand how intensely beautiful biblical marriage actually is, in all of its profound simplicity. They keep trying to put ketchup on lobster to cover up the taste. Marriage is of course complex, but if you follow the incredibly simple rules set out in the NT it is something of intense beauty, what engineers and mathematicians refer to when they say “elegant”.

  23. grey_whiskers says:

    @grey_whiskers

    Feh, the <img> tag didn’t work.

    Here’s the web address:

  24. driversuz says:

    ‘men are uncomplicated’.
    Modern women don’t comprehend “uncomplicated.” They think complication (drama) is what gives life meaning.

  25. Paul says:

    Or let me put it in a possibly more female-friendly way. Marital fidelity is also an important part of the contract, even from the female perspective, would you not agree? So, let me tinker with your question just a bit:

    SSM asked if making oneself sexually unavailable to other women and never saying yes to them will cause a woman to have “a certain lack of respect for [her] husband”. I can only imagine the answer is NO, but I’m not a woman, so I can’t answer it. Maybe some women can confirm if that’s the case.

  26. @Mr. T

    We aren’t falling for it anymore. Learn to have a real conversation that involves you actually considering the other persons point or be ignored.

    @deti

    “You never should have married them, but having now made your beds, you must lie in them and fulfill the marital duties you agreed to take on when you said “I do.””

    This is the crux of it. Women have created a pretext that is very simple, chase me…. forever. They want to doll out sex when it suits them best. The only truly proportional response to this is to doll out money when it suits you best. We as men bring work to the table and women bring sex and child raising ability. If she is holding back on her side, then we men should be allowed to hold back on ours.

  27. By the way, my question was not about a wife sexually abandoning her husband. The question was if it she should ‘regulate’ it, as Dalrock put it in his post title.
    NOT to punish or spite the husband in any way, but simply in the interests of not reaching this ‘saturation point’ I imagined…

    If the answer to this specific question is an overwhelming no (and so far it seems to be, lol), then fine. My curiosity has been satisfied, and now I can be sure I have got this point right, in my own head.
    Understand that this is NOT the kind of question I could ever ask in a pre-marriage class, with my parish priest present, so I ask it here, in the context of a similar discussion on this topic.

    So thank you for that. Much appreciated.

  28. @ST

    “NOT to punish or spite the husband in any way, but simply in the interests of not reaching this ‘saturation point’ I imagined…”

    The real question in my mind is are you looking for a pretext to gain hand in the marriage? Do you feel a need to control his sex life?

  29. sunshinemary says:

    @ Paul
    Thank you for responding. I should clarify that I was pretty certain of the answer but wanted to make sure that ST got her question answered by a number of different people in an unequivocal way.

  30. Some Guy says:

    @Spacetraveller — I misread you earlier and apologize for slamming you so hard with the “stupid” put-down. Based on your posts here, you seem to be a genuine truth-seeker and not a troll. Please continue asking questions– this has been an extremely fruitful discussion.

  31. Dalrock says:

    @Spacetraveller

    I am not married (yet).
    I have found that ‘officia’l pre-marriage courses are sadly nothing more than a ‘tick box’ exercise, I am afraid. This blog is my best pre-marriage course so far.

    Thank you for the kind words. If you haven’t already read them, I would recommend this post and this post on picking a husband. You may also be interested in my advice to husbands looking for a wife. As I mention in the very first link above, if you take biblical marriage at its word the idea of marrying the wrong man should be frightening. However, that fear should prompt all of the right questions, which proves that the model is correct. Good luck.

    One last link you may enjoy if you haven’t already read it: Rejoice in the wife of your youth.

  32. I concur on the talking thing. We do that too. Recently we had a dinner out and started giggling overtly, and it was because we’d both looked around and saw the bull faced looks on the other couples, unspoken, we’d noted it and it fed the giggles even more until we were likely disruptive. Since my wife is a light weight, her glass and a half of wine was helpful as well.
    Very good times….the other thing is that we can have a low grade of venting going on, which is just banter but keeps us pressure relieved. Other couples ask us, “how can you stand constantly bickering?”….we both say what are you talking about, we are interacting, not bickering, its our style, it works, and it most often leades to more giggling.

  33. Natalie says:

    @ST

    I wonder if I’m following you here. It sounds kind of like you’re talking about teasing and initiating pursuit instead of always rolling over and saying “Yep, sure. Marriage. You know where it goes.” Is that part of what you’re asking? Because I think that playing hard to get in the “run a couple steps with your head over your shoulder” kind of approach can be a lot of fun. There are times when, if I’m feeling particularly playful (ok, difficult) I’ll pull something stupid like saying “Nope, just here for the snuggles. Can’t stand kissing and all that.” all the while acting very physically interested. There are ways to say yes that invite play and increase sexual tension so that it doesn’t become “boring.” (Btw, boring sex is pretty fricken awesome. I really don’t get this whole “bored in the bedroom” thing. I have to wonder whether these people ever liked each other to begin with.)

  34. Dalrock says:

    Great comment Empath, and you touched on the differences between couples. Part of what I hope comes across is another couple isn’t “defective” if they manifest this sense of closeness in different ways. My wife and I have always enjoyed talking and laughing, so our closeness manifesting this way isn’t surprising. Interestingly this carries over when we are on vacation and the whole family is sleeping in the same room. Who would ever think a four year old could get in on the act and be so funny? We stayed up for hours one vacation when my wife was pregnant with our son talking and laughing, and our daughter was right there with us both laughing and making us laugh. More recently we had something very similar, but our daughter was older and our son was two. Even our son was in on the jokes and making us laugh.

    Your example of others getting irritated at a restaurant is something we come across too. We really aren’t loud people, but we do talk and laugh fairly frequently while keeping the volume down. When we are next to a family which is somber and silent we get the same kinds of looks you describe. This is strange, because I think you would agree that Texans are naturally very friendly and outgoing people. If we were younger, unmarried, and/or without kids I don’t think anyone would even notice.

  35. @ Joseph of Jackson,

    “The real question in my mind is are you looking for a pretext to gain hand in the marriage? Do you feel a need to control his sex life?”

    Whyever would I want such a thing?!
    There are aspects of this I had not wanted to go into…but now you ask this question, I might as well come out with some ‘issues’ which led me to ask this question.

    1. I am no expert in human psychology, but it is well-known that ‘too much of a good thing turns bad’. I was thinking that theoretically, even in a marriage, this could be an issue. As you can well imagine, there is no decent way of asking a married person to explain how this could be, in a marriage. I am not that brave. Hence my asking it here.

    2. (I definitely wasn’t going to bring this up because it is a uniquely Catholic issue and I am well aware that this is not the right place to discuss this). There is also the issue of the ‘no contraception’ rule in Catholic marriages. This necessitates ‘self-control’ within a marriage. This means, one or both partners having to say ‘no’ at a time when any other couple wouldn’t have to say ‘no’, i.e. in the absence of illness, recent childbirth, menstruation, etc.
    In this sense, Catholic marriages demand that couples deny each other from time to time. In practical terms, this usually translates into the woman having to deny the man, if both have ‘normal’ sex drives.

    I could go on. (And I will, if you push me). :-)

    I am definitely overthinking this, I know.
    But I would rather overthink this now, and be ‘sorted’ in my head, than to BE married, and having to figure this out on an ad hoc basis and perhaps getting it wrong. I don’t want to get it wrong.

    Yes it seems intuitive to me that there should be NO barrier to sex within a marriage. I am fine with that. I just wondered if there was any caveat to this ‘rule’, which might actually help strengthen the marriage. But everyone seems to think not. Good. I am cool with that.

    And then there is the other ‘Catholic’ issue I describe above.
    I shall have to go elsewhere to solve THAT issue, perhaps not on this blog – unless there are Catholics here who are keen to advise…and Dalrock doesn’t mind.

  36. @ SomeGuy,

    Thanks. We’re cool.
    (I am definitely not a troll. I don’t have the time!).

    Dalrock,

    I am getting married in a few weeks. Whilst I have always wanted to understand marriage properly, I have doubled my efforts lately in the run-up to my marriage, as it looms ever so largely in the horizon for me :-)
    I am in a kind of ‘race against time’, so to speak. I know I have a lot of ‘catching up’ to do…and certainly a lot of decluttering of mainstream nonsense in my head. There is a lot of sanity to be found on your blog…
    I have read most of your posts (all very useful) and previously commented sporadically, but now I have stepped it up in order to ask specific questions.

    Kiddoh,

    “I sometimes wonder if this robs him of the thrill of the chase. He knows I’m a sure thing. Also, if he decides against sex tonight, he knows that it will always be available tomorrow night, so there is no sense of urgency for him.”

    This is actually the sort of thing I was referring to in my question. You phrase it better than I do. Essentially, does loss of ‘spontaneity’ contribute to the breakdown of a marriage, I wonder?
    And if so, (to tie this in with my other point regarding contraception), is the Catholic Church deliberately requiring married couples to take this route precisely because it might actually help a marriage??
    I don’t know.Perhaps someone who has ‘been there’ could educate me on this.

    “There have, however, been times that I have been turned down by HIM”.

    Again, this makes me think…is it sometimes good for a man to be the one who has to turn down his wife for a change?? Perhaps, you, Kiddoh could tell me – do you think your husband likes or hates it when he turns you down?

    Natalie,

    I think the answer to your question is buried somewhere in my comment to Kiddoh.

  37. Dalrock says:

    @SpaceTraveller

    1. I am no expert in human psychology, but it is well-known that ‘too much of a good thing turns bad’. I was thinking that theoretically, even in a marriage, this could be an issue. As you can well imagine, there is no decent way of asking a married person to explain how this could be, in a marriage. I am not that brave. Hence my asking it here.

    There is a hormonal cycle which follows intercourse, and it generally results in a somewhat reliable pattern in when the couple is interested in intercourse again. Athol Kay describes the specific brain chemicals from an Evo Psych perspective in his book (and probably his blog). At any rate, for a while you are satisfied and then you want more. One blogger at Psychology Today is convinced that this experience of enjoying pleasure and then wanting (and getting) more is somehow problematic, and has waged a one woman jihad against orgasms (male or female). She actually believes that she has “fixed” sex by taking that part out. Feel free to research this further, the science is fairly easy to find. But the moral of the story is the Bible isn’t wrong; it all works out just fine when you follow the Apostle Paul’s instructions to the Corinthians. No worry that it will spin out of control and the wheels will come off. I don’t say this to mock you, but to address the very common concern.

    2. (I definitely wasn’t going to bring this up because it is a uniquely Catholic issue and I am well aware that this is not the right place to discuss this). There is also the issue of the ‘no contraception’ rule in Catholic marriages. This necessitates ‘self-control’ within a marriage. This means, one or both partners having to say ‘no’ at a time when any other couple wouldn’t have to say ‘no’, i.e. in the absence of illness, recent childbirth, menstruation, etc.
    In this sense, Catholic marriages demand that couples deny each other from time to time. In practical terms, this usually translates into the woman having to deny the man, if both have ‘normal’ sex drives.

    I’m ok opening the door a bit on that question so long as it doesn’t become a point of contention/distraction. There are issues of difference between Catholics and Protestants which I don’t intend to try to resolve, and all I can do on my side is respect the differences and the sincerity of others. However, with this said and the obvious caveat that I’m not Catholic, I’m not sure what you are describing is precisely the Catholic position. There is a fundamental “if” question which needs to be considered. If a Catholic couple mutually decides to practice NFP, they will mutually decide to abstain for certain periods. I don’t understand the acceptance of NFP as overturning what the Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians. I’m not sure what this does to the overall chemical/bonding pattern, but I’m guessing it works out just fine and perhaps some others can offer some more insight.

  38. Stingray says:

    Would that more people set that as their goal instead of never-ending “Excitement”

    I can’t speak for other wives, obviously, but I’ve found that stuff like this is exciting. If you are willing to talk about more than the latest reality show and are willing to learn something, these talks can be very exciting. Or . . . maybe I’m just boing.

  39. A Northern Observer says:

    @ST: “What I think you men have to remember, is that sometimes (and I am personally very guilty of this), women have trouble believing that men can be that ‘simple’.

    I’m guessing this partly because women are “so complicated”, they expect their men to be complicated too and so they tend to look for an ulterior motivation behind ever action?

  40. In this sense, Catholic marriages demand that couples deny each other from time to time. In practical terms, this usually translates into the woman having to deny the man, if both have ‘normal’ sex drives.

    Maybe I’m missing something, but I can’t figure out what circumstances would require one of them to deny the other, that would be specific to Catholics. If a Catholic couple decides to use NFP (which is only supposed to be used in cases of grave need, not just because you don’t feel like having another kid yet), it’ll be a mutual thing as Dalrock says; neither will be denying the other. In a case where one spouse is very ill and simply unable to perform, yes, one will deny the other, but that applies to anyone, not just Catholics.

    If you’re being told that there’s some other circumstance where a Catholic is supposed to deny his/her spouse, perhaps you could tell us about it and some of us could respond to that, if it’s okay with Dalrock. If you’re going through a Catholic marriage prep course, you could be running across all manner of goofiness.

  41. I think you would agree that Texans are naturally very friendly and outgoing people

    Yes, but you cannot escape the sour looking couple at a random McDonalds, invisible behind a mountain of torn sugar packages behind which even the metric ton of sugar hansn’t sweetened their demeanor. We use that as our anti-goal.

  42. sunshinemary says:

    @ empath
    You know who Sandra Tsing Loh is, right? I read one of her books awhile back, before she got divorced, and she wrote about going out to breakfast with her husband and sitting there not speaking to one another. I thought then that their marriage would not last. It’s a bad sign if the spouses aren’t curious about the world around them and excited to talk over their thoughts about it with each other.

  43. nightsky says:

    For my wife and I not only are we very physically affectionate, we also talk a great deal…. My wife describes the periods of “pleasant warmth” as being like a never ending slumber party, and we very often do end up staying up laughing and talking late into the night.

    You lucky dog.

  44. Anonymous Reader says:

    Spacetraveller
    Yes, I never heard of a man complain that his wife was ‘too easy’. But then again, outside of the ‘Sphere, I never heard of men complain about anything. At all.
    A phenomenon I have often called ‘The Quiet Man’ on my blog.

    This is easy to understand.
    There is no point in talking, when no one is listening.

  45. Dalrock says:

    @kiddoh

    I guess our situation is unique. I have always enjoyed sex, perhaps more than my husband and have never been one to turn him down. There have, however, been times that I have been turned down by HIM.

    I sometimes wonder if this robs him of the thrill of the chase. He knows I’m a sure thing. Also, if he decides against sex tonight, he knows that it will always be available tomorrow night, so there is no sense of urgency for him.

    “Do not deprive” goes both ways of course. Athol Kay posted a NSFW video a while back with some creative girl game tips (see also this one). Hopefully one of them will hit the spot. The only thing I would add is while there is all of the “microwave vs slow cooker” nonsense out there, if you approach aggressively when he wasn’t already there it might take him a minute to get there. You will probably have better luck if you don’t take an initial lack of enthusiasm overly personally (but real rejection really does sting men and women) and gently keep making your case with good girl game. Don’t worry about the “lack of urgency”, and if you can resolve the other issue it won’t be a concern. I’m being careful here not to encourage a romp into TMI territory in the comments, but hopefully this helps at least a bit.

    As an aside: The one thing I have noted creating more closeness in our marriage is my ability to control my un-respectful reactions to him, especially in front of the children. The more I control looks of disgust, rolling my eyes etc., the more man he becomes. He is able to stop looking at me out of the corner of his eye after each sentence to gauge my reaction, which in turn, makes him more attractive to me. I congratulate myself on helping to create the man I desire.

    Beautifully put.

  46. Anonymous Reader says:

    driversuz
    Modern women don’t comprehend “uncomplicated.” They think complication (drama) is what gives life meaning.

    +1

  47. Maybe I am just an unusually talkative man?

  48. I’m guessing this partly because women are “so complicated”, they expect their men to be complicated too and so they tend to look for an ulterior motivation behind ever action?

    Man-text
    Woman-subtext

  49. Zippy says:

    @Dalrock:
    If a Catholic couple mutually decides to practice NFP, they will mutually decide to abstain for certain periods. I don’t understand the acceptance of NFP as overturning what the Apostle Paul wrote to the Corinthians.

    That is exactly right, AFAIK. Furthermore, it is not morally licit for a couple to do so (even mutually) for arbitrary reasons. They must have serious or grave reasons to practice NFP, though what that constitutes in practice is (surprise, surprise) controversial.

  50. Cane Caldo says:

    @Dalrock

    Great post. Your side comments about your kids being a not only a result of Dad and Mom’s sexual relationship but beneficiaries is important. That tone of happiness is set by the parents, and the parents’ tone is inextricably tied to their sexual intimacy.

    @JoJ

    The real question in my mind is are you looking for a pretext to gain hand in the marriage? Do you feel a need to control his sex life?

    What you’re seeing is an expression of shame. The real question is: “How ashamed should I be–and how often–for what I’ve done or wanted to do with other men?”

    What you’re examining is a peculiar mental widget that comes from the same female factory that pumps out “slut for your husband” nonsense…and it is nonsense. By definition. It’s a release valve designed to mitigate the discomfort of shame caused by sexual dysfunction; such as results from premarital sex, multiple partners; etc. Even in the (very uncommon) circumstance that the shame leak is not caused by the owner herself, there is still the matter of dealing with the shame pollution from everyone around them.

  51. Zippy says:

    Cail Corishev beat me to it.

  52. Wilson says:

    Ha, this is a perverse take on “spicing up” married sex life. Unless the husband has an odd sex denial fetish, foreplay is a sounder strategy. If access seems too easy, wear something that has to be torn off…

  53. taterearl says:

    From what I know about NFP…spacing children or finances is a legit reason to use it. Some of my good friends use it for those reasons.

    Then again as a single Catholic who doesn’t fornicate…the whole concept of when to have relations is pretty foreign to me. Just as a man there would be very few times I wouldn’t be good to go. Intense physical pain, staying awake for several days, having a very stressful day at work, being really ill, a wife who isn’t being feminine or somebody close dying would be the times I could think of. It would take some great self-control to not do it during the ovulation stage.

  54. anonymous says:

    What if a wife doesn’t regulate the couple’s sex life?

    No worries, the husband has a physiological limit. Few men are so fortunate as to reach it, alas.

  55. Anonymous Reader says:

    The larger issue here, the elephant in the bedroom in a sense, is pretty obvious: sex and childbearing are really the only things the modern woman brings to a marriage. If she gives up control of sex to her husband, she pretty much gives up one of the means of controlling him.

    I suspect for a lot of women, given the choice between retaining control of their husband, or making him happy, “control” wins out every time. This points to a larger issue …

  56. control” wins out every time. This points to a larger issue …

    Gottman gets into this. But his insights into controlling behavior somehow never rise to be consumed by casual readers. Women love to cite Gottman regarding the signs of a marriage that will fail being in how biting the couple is in their dialog (read: man is sharp), but if you read some of his own citations you will find that wives are the more likely (gasp) to have control issues and it leads to , guess what, man bites back.

  57. From what I know about NFP…spacing children or finances is a legit reason to use it. Some of my good friends use it for those reasons.

    Yes, but as Zippy said, the need must be grave. In other words, if a doctor says that another pregnancy sooner than six months after the last would be likely to cause her heart problems, that could qualify. Just thinking that kids are better off with 3 years between them than 2 or less does not. Likewise on finances, if you’re struggling to put food on the table for the kids you already have and you have no family or friends or church that could help you out, that may be enough reason to delay the next pregnancy. Waiting until you can afford a bigger house with more bedrooms so none of the kids have to double or triple up is not.

    In the First World, even with today’s poor economy, there aren’t that many people who truly have grave enough reasons to be using NFP. Unfortunately, too many do treat it as “Catholic birth control” — those who don’t just go ahead and ignore the Church’s rules on artificial birth control, that is.

  58. Anonymous Reader says:

    man bites back.

    Supposing that a man were to come home and kick the family dog, hard, every day. Most people would not be too surprised if some day the dog bit him as he came home. Oddly enough, most people are astounded when a man decides not to put up with anymore verbal kickings from his wife.

    This suggests that “most people” expect men to be more loyal that a dog, and stupider than a dog.

    Go figure.

  59. when a man decides not to put up with anymore verbal kickings from his wife.

    Then, when he ends, or wins an argument he becomes an abuser

  60. taterearl says:

    @ Cali

    And with issues like that is one of the reasons why I think St. Paul wrote the part about unmarried people in 1 Corinthians 7.

  61. A Northern Observer says:

    @taterearl – Feminism couldn’t exist in St Paul’s time w/out all the legal supports today’s feminists have.

    Paul’s position was more about who a person’s time and attention went to. If one was single, then God was the focus. If one was married, then the partner was the focus.

  62. Strong Man says:

    Mrs. Yes is an awesome case study in the answer to your question. The couple grows closer with more willingness.

    As a man, I have a naturally and regularly recurring sex drive that recharges fully in 2-3 days. I can either lie and supress this drive in an attempt to kill it, use it on other women or porn, or I can share it with my wife. Which do you think is healthiest?

    My wife rarely, if ever, actually says, “no.” For years, I felt guilty for pushing her late at night when I knew she needed more sleep, and wanted to wait till she was actively attracted. But, I’ve learned her desire depends on mine. The more I’m honest with my desires around her, the more she’s interested and enjoys it.

    I honestly don’t think there is such thing as too much sex in a marriage. It’s not physically realistic to do it often enough or spend enough time at it to have it actually prevent you from producing other things.

    I find, as frequency and willingness increases, my gratitude and attraction for her increases, and my motivation to look for ways to help her and make her life easier increases. And, I self-regulate a bit sometimes to build anticipation and improve quality.

    She does sometimes play games that encourage me to step up and demonstrate that yes, I really, really do want her, but she wants me to overcome her resistance so she can have a good time in the end.

  63. @Dalrock

    Spot on with the engineers comment. If you want to fix a specific problem that requires intervention, an engineer is a blessing. For everything else, they’re a liability. I was at an academic conference and I sat in on a pannel discussing economics and all of the engineers seemed to think that over-intervention is the best strategy. They’re too used to the god’s-eye view of things. Sometimes they fail to see a better engineer than them set up a perfect system.

    Marriage is one of those things. We have the manual. We’ve got the instructions. It can’t be improved upon. God knew what he was doing. We found a way to mess things up in Eden and he still had a fix ready for us in Leviticus and later in 1st Corinthians and Titus. The only way to muck this stuff up is to put your own hand into the design process. Enter modern Evangelicals. What 200 years of Roman oppression couldn’t break, the self-help pastor circuit demolished in 30 years.

  64. Rum says:

    S Traveller
    If you know a young woman that you truly hate; I mean, hate in a way that would include feeling happy if you get watch her life go wrong, you could hardly do better than to make her believe that too much “easy” sex would harm her marriage. Because if she accepts that, just about every important relationship in her life would be slowly and irreversibly poisoned.
    I would try to remember where you picked up this absurd notion – some teacher/parent/very bad intuition, whatever – and begin to actively question everything else that comes from that source because it is not your friend.

  65. @ A Northern Observer,

    “I’m guessing this partly because women are “so complicated”, they expect their men to be complicated too and so they tend to look for an ulterior motivation behind ever action?”

    Well, I wonder if I am doing this too. Perhaps I am. This is why I think ‘projection’ is a big deal, and why I think it is of vital importance to try and see something from the other gender’s point of view, no matter how hard it may be.

    It is precisely because I am not a man that no matter how much I know how much men value sex, I still can’t believe that ‘unrestricted access’ is really what men want. I know it sounds silly to you, and on one level, it does to me as well.

    But I have been well and truly convinced now that it really IS that simple. Men really do want unrestricted access in marriage. Just making sure. :-)

    @ Strong Man,

    “I honestly don’t think there is such thing as too much sex in a marriage. It’s not physically realistic to do it often enough or spend enough time at it to have it actually prevent you from producing other things.

    I find, as frequency and willingness increases, my gratitude and attraction for her increases, and my motivation to look for ways to help her and make her life easier increases. And, I self-regulate a bit sometimes to build anticipation and improve quality.

    She does sometimes play games that encourage me to step up and demonstrate that yes, I really, really do want her, but she wants me to overcome her resistance so she can have a good time in the end.”

    This answers my question perfectly. Thanks.
    Of course, every couple has to ‘do their own thing’ in this regard. But I value the opinions of people who have found ‘what works’.

    I hear so much of the ‘we got married, and after a few years the sex dried out’ that I wonder if there was an element of ‘it just got too routine’.

    So, I ask myself, is there a not a need to ‘pace oneself’ a bit?
    Yes, if one calls it ‘spicing up’ the marriage, fine. The label doesn’t really matter. The point is to avoid that sexual ‘dead-end’ that is all too common in a seemingly huge number of marriages.

    Perhaps my mistake was to presume that it is the woman who has to do this ‘pacing’, my assumption being that men would not.

    But you mention that you actually do some of this ‘self-regulation’ yourself!
    Which is both interesting and refreshing to know. :-)

    Re NFP, yes, it should be a mutual decision. But even I know that in practice, if it is indeed attempted, one person falls off the wagon, so the effect is that the other person gets ‘denied’ or the NFP is thrown to one side, defeating its purpose.
    All those large Irish families with 12 kids – they were all (mostly) practising NFP!

    *sigh*

  66. On Sunday afternoons the front porches of the Amish fill with children
    Waiting to be let back in.
    After a few years, the porch gets expanded.

  67. “Our daughter has commented numerous times that when we go out to a restaurant the other parents don’t talk to each other.”

    I always find it funny when going to restaurants and seeing two people sit there completely in their own worlds, silently, with nothing to talk about. How boring.

  68. NFP wasn’t around when those 12-kid families were happening. The ovulation cycle wasn’t discovered until the 1920s, and the testing methods used in NFP weren’t invented until the 1950s and came into general knowledge with the approval of the Church in the 1970s — by which point most people had adopted artificial birth control anyway. Realistically, a couple that ends up with 2-3 kids wasn’t depending on NFP.

    Spacetraveller, I don’t think there was anything wrong with your question. From a woman’s perspective, it probably makes perfect sense: no matter how much you enjoy something — chocolate, fine wine, great music, fast driving — there’s a point beyond which you say “too much” and it’s not enjoyable anymore. One truffle is exquisite; a whole box is a bellyache, that kind of thing. Same thing with things that are good for you: 8 glasses of water per day is healthy; 800 glasses makes you a drowning victim.

    But I’m here to tell you (if enough other guys haven’t already) that sex may be the one thing that doesn’t work that way, at least for men. As someone else said, our equipment is self-regulating: when we’re ready, we want it. Yes, “spicing it up” in various ways is great and important, but withdrawal is not a spice. When you spice up chili, you still eat the chili. (And by withdrawal I don’t mean teasing or playing hard-to-get with a twinkle in your eye and giving in after a few minutes.)

    So the answer to your perfectly good question is: No. A woman cannot make the sex better for her husband by “regulating” it.

  69. Legion says:

    Spacetraveller, congratulations and good luck.

  70. LisainVermont says:

    A really interesting thought-provoking post. I’d say that regulating sex might make it more appealing for men with low sex drives.

    My husband is a case in point. We were virgins when we married. I was so excited to finally be able to have sex that I bounced naked into bed on our wedding night and announced that I had read every Christian book I could find on the topic and that I was willing to do whatever he wanted whenever he wanted it to make him happy.

    I think I scared the sh*t out of him. He didn’t respond with the enthusiasm I had expected and has always been somewhat aloof in the bedroom, almost as if he uses his sexual indifference to control me since he knows I have a high sex drive.

    I recently began seeing a therapist for the first time and she suggested that I stop trying to push the issue. Kind of like reverse physcology, I guess. Low and behold, we’ve actually done it twice this month where previously we were going months without it. Maybe he’s more willing b/c these last two times he’s seen it as “his” idea and not mine.

    So while being an enthusiastic wife might actually benefit most marriages, it might not be the best approach to a low-appetite man who feels that an occasional bon-bon is better than a whole box.

  71. Solomon says:

    @Kiddoh: you said

    “As an aside: The one thing I have noted creating more closeness in our marriage is my ability to control my un-respectful reactions to him, especially in front of the children. The more I control looks of disgust, rolling my eyes etc., the more man he becomes. He is able to stop looking at me out of the corner of his eye after each sentence to gauge my reaction, which in turn, makes him more attractive to me. I congratulate myself on helping to create the man I desire.”

    Pure awesomeness. This is the key bit of wisdom that could lend every married woman the happiness she finds so elusive. THIS is it.

    As a side note, while I know you are the “sure thing” and men like the thrill of the chase/hunt, there are still ways you can be playful and demure and give him a little something to chase. With the closeness that comes, you can take license to play around more safely.

    I wish we could more effectively express to those who would resist D/s arrangements how truly erotic it is for both. The eroticism, intimacy, and absence of damage is profound, and exceptional.

    Anyway, I liked your comment =)

  72. Cane Caldo says:

    @Lisa

    You’re describing a very different thing. Being simply available without pressure is not the same thing as regulating sex–which is actually negative pressure.. It sounds like your husband just wants to drive. As your therapist suggests: let him.

  73. Lisa,

    Voluntarily regulating your own sex drive so as not to scare your low-libido spouse, sure. I can’t see anything wrong with that. But the question was about regulating the couple’s sex life — which 99% of the time would mean limiting it for the man — as an attempt to make it better. Again, no. You aren’t doing that; you’re still giving it up as often as he wants it.

  74. A Northern Observer says:

    @LisainVermont
    Wow! While I can’t speak as a married person, I can see from a man’s perspective that what you did could feel aggressive to your guy. I don’t know if I’d term his behavior as ‘indifference’ as much as I would ‘where’s the challenge’? Men still need to “hunt” and “conquer”, so when the “prey” jumps in our laps – well where’s the challenge / conquest to be found in that?

  75. Novaseeker says:

    I can see where Lisa is coming from, but I agree with Cail — Lisa is basically dialing it down for herself to match her H’s lower libido, and letting his libido set the pace.

    Although I have to say that it’s very unfortunate that Lisa is in a marriage with libido incompatibilities. That’s very hard to live with, and also very hard to change (people do have different libidos). Lisa’s H may have low T (over-discussed and now over-hyped, but it’s possible that he does), or he may just have a lower than average libido. That’s not a problem, but it makes sense to be married to someone with similar libidinal drives — otherwise it’s very difficult on both persons.

  76. T says:

    So no one is going to freak out and say that Lisa’s husband is in sin for not meeting her sexual needs?

  77. imnobody says:

    I hate to feed the troll but I think Lisa’s husband is in sin and he is violating the marital contract when it goes without sex for months

  78. eon says:

    Spacetraveller,

    “I find, as frequency and willingness increases, my gratitude and attraction for her increases, and my motivation to look for ways to help her and make her life easier increases.” [Strong Man, February 1, 2013 at 4:09 pm]

    This very important idea applies to more than frequency and willingness, and encompasses more than gratitude and attraction.

    By being sweet, submissive, kind, affectionate, eager, enthusiastic and so on, a woman actually acts as a catalyst. She enables and activates what would otherwise remain dormant.

    In addition, when two people enjoy being with each other and taking care of each other, they give energy to each other. But the amount of energy received is always much more than the amount given.

    “I would try to remember where you picked up this absurd notion [that a man might lose respect for a woman who was always trying to please him] – some teacher/parent/very bad intuition, whatever – and begin to actively question everything else that comes from that source because it is not your friend.” [Rum, February 1, 2013 at 5:04 pm]

    Caring is very important, so you should ensure that this source did not also give you ideas that could cause you to suppress this essential aspect of a relationship.

    “Don’t panic if your lady friend cannot boil water or make the proverbial sandwich. She can learn how to do those things. What she CAN’T do is learn how to care. She does or she doesn’t. A woman who will bring you take-out, or heat soup from a can or pick up some bread and cheese from the bakery because YOU are hungry is on the right path. It’s all about attitude. Wanting to go out for dinner because SHE wants to is very different from wanting to go get dinner because YOU have had a long shitty day and she’s knows your favourite Mexican restaurant is just what you need.” [http://judgybitch.com/2012/11/16/how-to-pick-a-wife-advice-for-single-men/]

    It really is all about attitude.

    Best wishes.

  79. T says:

    @ imnobody- “I hate to feed the troll but I think Lisa’s husband is in sin and he is violating the marital contract when it goes without sex for months”

    I’m happy that you said it. There are countless comments and carrying on about how women who say no to sex are in sin. And about how women who act indifferent to their husbands sexually are sinful and horrible. Yet when a man does the same thing – nothing.

  80. imnobody says:

    “sex is the root, eroticism is the stem, and love is the flower ” Octavio Paz

    http://www.amazon.es/The-Double-Flame-Love-Eroticism/dp/0156003651

  81. @ Cail Corishev,

    “But I’m here to tell you (if enough other guys haven’t already) that sex may be the one thing that doesn’t work that way, at least for men. As someone else said, our equipment is self-regulating: when we’re ready, we want it.”

    Thanks for this. It is great to have it spelled out like this. Sometimes I really need this level of clarity/precision. Otherwise I just don’t know for sure, and I have to rely on (semi) guesswork.

    @ Legion,

    Thank you very much!

  82. threealpha says:

    Lisa’s hubby doesn’t have a low libido I bet, he just isn’t wanting to compete with masculine traits and is shifting the locus of control subconsciously.

    Institutional feminism is teh debbil.

  83. Cane Caldo says:

    Novaseeker? My, my. Did my link back to your exodus comment spur this resurrection?

  84. SDF says:

    Here ya go.

    From a Reformed Christian perspective…

    “First: ‘Husbands should not force their wives to submit to their lawful authority.’

    Second: ‘Wives should not force their husbands to be sexually faithful to them.’”

    http://teampyro.blogspot.com/2013/01/marriage-tale-of-paired-assertions.html

    I’ll just say “yer welcome” now…

  85. 8oxer says:

    @Lisa In Vermont

    I recently began seeing a therapist for the first time and she suggested that I stop trying to push the issue. Kind of like reverse physcology, I guess. Low and behold, we’ve actually done it twice this month where previously we were going months without it. Maybe he’s more willing b/c these last two times he’s seen it as “his” idea and not mine.

    If he was actually a virgin, then he’s probably very intimidated by you. Men have all sorts of ego shit involved with sex, and a lot of guys feel a lot of pressure normally. If the woman seems too eager, then sometimes a brother can just shut down altogether.

    Not to get too personal, but I suspect you are *very* good looking (whether you are a model quality babe or not, your husband likely envisions you that way, and that’s what counts) and he feels intimidated… It’s not something you can change. It’s something that is going on in his head. Roissy writes about performance anxiety for new guys who suddenly are able to get with women they feel are way out of their league.

    You are doing the right thing by easing back and letting him make the moves. That’s something his ego needs, to feel in control. You’re also to be commended by not thinking about getting your needs met on the side. I’m pretty sure I wouldn’t put up with anyone who denied me sex for months, and I respect your willingness to put your marriage first.

    A couple of things you can do… Don’t jump naked in the bed and try to rip his clothes off yet, but have things to wear that you know he likes (women know what their men like). Be very subtle when you want sex, but set the mood and be persistent. You’ll be calling the plays, but at every step of the seduction you’ll be letting him think he’s calling them. If he says no, fine tune your approach and go for the kill next night.

    Also, talk to some older, long married chickies about this in the strictest of confidence (preferrably women your husband doesn’t know). If Roissy is writing about it, then I doubt it’s some sort of unique issue. My guess is that many women can give you tips (much better than I can) on how to turn your dude on in a way that doesn’t make him feel insecure. Never tell your husband that you’ve discussed your sex life with anyone else, and never admit to coming to the Dalrock blog either. You need to be very discreet about this stuff, or he will feel like he’s been betrayed.

    I’m guessing you will only have to work at this for a relatively short time (weeks or maybe a couple of months, rather than years) before the dam bursts and he’s banging you six times per day. He wouldn’t have married you if he hadn’t wanted to sex you up.

    Good luck and enjoy the ride.

    Boxer

  86. LisainVermont says:

    Thanks Boxer,

    You bring up some interesting points.

    He did mention recently he has some body-image issues. Who knew? He’s gained about 20 lbs since we were married 16 years ago, but I could care less. The only way his body weight would be a turnoff would be if he became morbidly obese, which is unlikely given he has a small frame.

    So, I have been trying to boost his ego, letting him know I think he’s hot. And, of course I’ve always complimented him during sex (telling him I can’t wait to feel him inside of me and then of course telling him how amazing it is once he’s doing the deed). Basically trying to make it a positive experience from start to finish.

    I’m not model material, but I’m attractive for a woman in her early 40s (most people assume I’m much younger ), weigh about the same as when we were married, and I’ve been told I have a nice figure so hopefully that will help things along.

  87. 8oxer says:

    @imnobody

    I hate to feed the troll but I think Lisa’s husband is in sin and he is violating the marital contract when it goes without sex for months

    I don’t believe in any god or gods, and don’t know what constitutes sin in this case, but there’s a difference.

    When a woman withholds sex, it’s often out of spite, or to be manipulative (ha! I’ve got that poor sap where I want him, he’d better buy me a new car or he will be jerking off for the next five years!).

    With a newly married virgin guy, I think it’s more likely a case of just being freaked out.

    *O my god! I just married this model quality sexpot and she’s tearing her clothes off and jumping in the bed! Aaaggghhh! I am gonna make a mistake and she’s gonna laugh at me, or I’m gonna do the wrong thing and she won’t like me any more! abort! abort!*

    I know this because when I started gaming I had moments like these. I kept them under control only thanks to what I read online. It’s tough jumping in bed with a truly *hot* woman. It’s like being on stage at an academic conference, reading your work to a bunch of gray haired old Ph.Ds.

    I agree that if someone (a man as well as a woman) withholds sex for months on end, it’s a deal-breaker. That’s why people get married, to have sex, and it’s a reasonable expectation. Other brothers can speak to the sin factor of it all. If Lisa in Vermont gives it her all for another year, and doesn’t get anywhere, I wouldn’t judge her for cutting ties and divorcing. It’s to her credit that she’s trying hard to work through this.

  88. 8oxer says:

    Hey Lisa:

    If you’ve been married to him for 16 years, he still thinks you’re hot. Men get imprinted when they first get together with a woman, and it doesn’t matter how old she gets. There’s an article on this site about that, called “the wife of your youth”. Hopefully the admin or someone else can point to it if they have the time.

    He did mention recently he has some body-image issues. Who knew? He’s gained about 20 lbs since we were married 16 years ago, but I could care less.

    Losing just that 20 lbs will go a long way toward increasing sexual function. Don’t take medical advice from me, mind you. I also don’t know how you would go about getting him to lose the weight (you can’t really force anyone to get fit).

    Inviting him to join you on jogs or otherwise being active might both help keep the weight down, and get his thoughts on more carnal things. There’s something about seeing a woman move and sweat that gets a fella thinking…

    Best, Boxer

  89. eon says:

    Spacetraveller,

    I left a comment for you on February 1, 2013 at 7:49 pm, but it was in moderation for a while, so you probably missed it.

  90. greyghost says:

    This is another one of your best post Dalrock. This is the cat’s meow of cultural leadership. You have shown what is a good practice towards happy and content joy in marriage. (doesn’t cost a dime) Dalrock you and your wife have insured that you will have a place in your childs home 30 years from now just be being good and affectionate to each other. You make being good to family normal and pleasurable and not some burden. Good message for a daughter to see. It is a positive this is what I want and can do article with outstanding comments.
    Spacetraveler you are working on being a worthy wife and some good pussy. Very rare for a guy to come across a woman like you. Your question was a good question and something that should be asked of any preast,pastor preacher at any time without shame or hesitation. The female commenters were great on this one as well. (not you Mr. T )
    Lisa
    I think your husband just has emotional or psychological issues. You seem like the perfect person to help him through.

  91. @ Eon,

    Thanks, I just saw your comment. I think it is high quality advice. I internalise this.

    To answer Rum’s question as to the ‘source’ of my question, I did not get this from anyone per se. I have heard a lot of ‘claptrap’ over the years from mainstream media as we all have, but this one is me just ‘intellectualising’ in my own head, in response to what I hear in a general fashion.

    It doesn’t seem to matter how much in love or how moral or how well-informed two people are before they get married – it seems to be a common denominator that married people (?more so perhaps now than in previous generations??) all seem to complain about the ‘tailing’ off of intimacy down the line.
    So I wondered if this was due to the ‘standard script’ of people just ‘going for it like there is no tomorrow’ at the beginning, and then there comes a point when they are literally all ‘done’, i.e. ‘saturated’, so to speak. I was theorising as to whether there is a certain ‘art’ to this that involves either a slow ‘build up’ or a perhaps a decision by one or both parties to keep to a certain ‘constant level’, (well, hopefully not quite as ‘cilinical’ as I describe it, lol) rather than the ‘all guns blazing thing’ swiftly followed by ‘nothing/zilch/nada’.

    But now that I have been disabused of the belief that ‘regulating’ could work as a possible solution to this ‘problem’, for all the reasons that I have been given (and this is why I always prefer long explanations rather than one-word answers), I am satisfied. So there must be other solutions to the eventual inevitable? (intimacy) problems of a long marriage. Perhaps just doing what you advise (and what Kiddoh also said) is enough to prevent these kinds of problems?

    So the overwhelming message I have got here is, “Don’t mess with the sex, whathever you do!”
    Good. I am glad I have heard this clear message. It has never been this clear to me before, even though I have been ruminating over this and other related topics for ages.

    Greyghost,

    “Spacetraveler you are working on being a worthy wife and some good pussy.”

    Hahahahaha! Your turn of phrase makes me imagine a rather wickedly irreverent scenario:

    In church:
    Priest: Do you, Spacetraveller take __________ to be your lawful wedded husband, to love, cherish, honour, obey… to be good pussy from this day forward….till death do you part?

    Hahahahahaha! Don’t give me any ideas – my priest has a weak heart…I can just imagine his face as I hand him my little piece of paper containing the vows…

    Priceless. And thank you. :P

  92. Looking Glass says:

    @Spacetraveler:

    Ended up setting off a great thread, so thanks for that.

    And, while I feel like the topic of Feminism and Cultural Marxism has come up a little too much at times lately, I think you also managed to brush across part of its appeal to women. At some level, women view access to Sex from them as part of their self-worth. (This discussion from Suz over at Ballista74′s place, I think, actually brought about a post by Dalrock some weeks back) The Marxist intent of always “abusing your power” makes a lot of sense to women in this regard, as “Power over Sex” is something they have personal and total control over. It’s always a scary place to say “you have power over me, and I agree to that”, which is kind of why we have a marriage ceremony. (Another good Dalrock post)

    Still, it makes sense to wonder about the “does he respect me?” aspect, though it really just highlights a lack of true education about the way men work. Assuming you aren’t married to a brute (which, generally speaking, if you end up in that situation, you’ve created it yourself by saying “yes”), men will never view easy access to sex as something disrespectful. Most especially due to that whole “marriage contract” bit. Honor & respect are very important commodities to Men, so if she’s “holding up her end of the bargain”, she is not viewed with less respect (in that area). And, as pointed out up thread, will very much increase the husband’s capacity for love and bring greater respect for his wife.

    Or, maybe the easier way to put it: Men earn respect from other Men by accomplishment and trustworthiness. If someone holds to their “word”, it’s a great sign of respect. A wife who holds to her marriage vow is to be greatly respected.

    @Lisa:

    If I remember right, you have a husband that got a huge dose of, for lack of a better set of terms, “live without Sex like you’re a Monk” training. Which brings up the possibility that, by effect, he was emotionally abused by some of those above him, as they taught him something that was actually very damaging. Which might be the entire complication.

    Further, you’re also in something of a bind given your position. Especially on the topic of sex, you can’t really bring this up to others (oddly enough, outside of places like here) without massively undercutting his masculinity. So there’s very little room, except for positive reinforcement, to dig deep into either the psychology or physiology of the issue. Because he does seem way below the “standard sexual burn rate” of the common man.

    So, I’d keep up the ego stroking and encouragement. And, if he works a stressful job, you could always drop hints that it’s a great stress reliever. (As a technical point, it is; though it does lower net Testosterone after the fact, that’s more than made up for by much lower Cortisol levels. It works in a slightly different manner for women, but the total effect is pretty similar. That’s a lot of the reason why having a solid sex life in a marriage is, nearly, a surefire way to have a less stressful total life.)

  93. wibbins says:

    If someone could give me some advice, that’d be great.

    I’m engaged to a like-minded woman that rejects the notion of feminism and embraces the complementary roles of a man and woman. We both believe in no sex before marriage and I’m working on explaining how we do not own the others body when we marry, she’s having little difficulty with this but I think she’s coming around realizing that by not withholding sex from the other will snuff out temptation to seek physical intimacy elsewhere. When she was younger she also was forced by her “bf” to perform oral on him which has taken its toll on her almost like a sexual assault victim. She’s come a long way, we’ve been together 6 years this year and will marry next year.

    I seek advice to help strengthen my will so that I can actually resist temptation when I get aroused, after 6 years she just has to kiss me still. Ever since I started going to Church with her last year I’ve made big improvements such as I haven’t viewed porn in 4-5 months at least, as an ex porn user the Lord has shown me how evil and twisted it can be 1 minute you’re looking at normal sex the next you can only be aroused by whips and chains:(. So to clarify my question, how can I help control myself from masturbation and be sexual moral with her?

    Thanks for the help

  94. Cane Caldo says:

    @SpaceTraveller

    To answer Rum’s question as to the ‘source’ of my question, I did not get this from anyone per se. I have heard a lot of ‘claptrap’ over the years from mainstream media as we all have, but this one is me just ‘intellectualising’ in my own head, in response to what I hear in a general fashion.

    I said this above.

    It doesn’t seem to matter how much in love or how moral or how well-informed two people are before they get married –

    You do not recognize how broad and deep the corruption of sexual relations is, so you’re assuming that since nearly everyone goes through this, that it’s not a (dys)function of the pollution. Take Lisa, for example, who is enthusiastic, but has possibly (from Looking Glass’ comment) had a regulator installed in his head–supposedly for his benefit. If it’s true, he’s suffering from Male Sexual Mutilation.

    For another example, you said:

    So the overwhelming message I have got here is, “Don’t mess with the sex, whathever you do!”
    Good. I am glad I have heard this clear message. It has never been this clear to me before, even though I have been ruminating over this and other related topics for ages.

    Because like most of the Manosphere–indeed everyone everywhere–you have been taught that women are the gatekeepers of sex. This is wrong. Once we recognize that the man is the source of sex we can reckon with the truths behind “you can’t rape the willing”, that it is fundamentally the man who fucks the woman, and that an impotent man is not an unwilling partner, but an incapable one. Furthermore, it become clear why a man who more freely gives sex is more attractive than the one who is saving it; which is otherwise obscured by the idea that women are the sole choosers.

    Of course you shouldn’t be messing with sex: it’s your province to receive, not facilitate. “Be receptive” answers both your and Lisa’s questions.

  95. Cane Caldo says:

    @wibbins

    When she was younger she also was forced by her “bf” to perform oral on him which has taken its toll on her almost like a sexual assault victim.

    This is your first roadblock. The story in the sentence I quoted is a lie, one way or another. You probably have the quotation marks around the wrong word. It sounds like is should be on “forced”. She either chose to suck his cock, or she was raped. Until that is clear you cannot make an informed decision about marriage. You don’t know if you’re considering marriage to which of two women: a lying slut (why else lie?), or a rape victim.

  96. T says:

    @ spacetraveller -anecdotally, my husband enjoys teasing me about how “easy” I am after marriage. Silly jokes about how he is going to get me drunk and take advantage of me while pouring me a glass of wine and comments about how I am cheap date when there’s sex after watching a rented DVD and eating pizza. Jokingly accusing me of taking advantage of him if I join him in the shower. I haven’t noticed respect or desire diminish at all but teasing has increased.

    Maybe sex diminishing after marriage has more to do with aging, (I have a friend in her midforties who says that her husband can only do it once a night at the most now, where there used to be repeat performances. If this is common then I am not looking forward to that stage. ) children being around, and longer hours put in at work. Sadly, I think that it may unrealistic to expect sex between people who have been together for decades to be as frequent as sex between newly weds.

  97. T says:

    @ Cane Caldo – “Of course you shouldn’t be messing with sex: it’s your province to receive, not facilitate. “Be receptive” answers both your and Lisa’s questions.”

    Are you saying that women shouldn’t initiate sex or have I misunderstood?

  98. 8oxer says:

    @wibbins

    Read Cane’s response above and then reread it again.

    Either way you interpret her story, you are considering marriage to someone with a whole lot of baggage. Are you sure you want to do this?

  99. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock in the OP
    Imagine a scenario where you build a fire and have an unlimited supply of firewood. Whenever one of you wants, you are free to throw another log on the fire. Paradoxically you end up with both periods of more intense heat and passion as well as moments where the fire has burned down nicely and it is pleasantly warm. You don’t get those wonderful glowing coals by being stingy with the wood.

    Furthermore, being stingy with the wood, while complaining of a lack of glowing coals, is foolish, or perhaps indicates a poor understanding of how fire works.

    Dumping a bucket of water on the fire just when it’s getting going, and then complaining about a lack of glowing coals, is malicious, or perhaps indicative of a fear of fire.

    Either way, if you seek to control every single molecule of material in a fire, you won’t be very happy with the results. FIre does not work that way.

  100. Gotta agree with Cane here. She was raped or she wasn’t. When a woman doesn’t call it rape but says something like “he made me go down on him,” maybe she really was raped and hates to say the word. Or maybe she just wasn’t really into it, but she did it anyway because he was really insistent and she didn’t want to lose him. Or any number of other reasons. So afterwards she felt bad, and “he made me” was better than, “wow, I’m such a slut.”

    Again, not saying she wasn’t raped. But either way, she needs to face up to what it was more than it sounds like she has, and before the marriage.

    As for the rest of your post, I’m sorry to say it sounds like a disaster in the making. A six year wait before marriage is about five years too many, but you don’t say what held things up. If she hasn’t even kissed you yet, presumably because of her abuse background, how do you know she’s going to be able to pay the marital debt after the wedding? Or has she already warned you that your bed will be cold sometimes while she deals with her past? If you accept that, you’d better enjoy your wedding night, because you may not get any again for a long time. She needs to have that worked out to the point where she’s looking forward to sex with you — again, well before the wedding. If she can’t even kiss you yet, that should be a giant red flag the size of Canada that she won’t be ready.

    If she knows about your past porn use, that just adds to the problem, because she’ll use that as a weapon to keep you at bay if she doesn’t want sex. “I can’t do that for you, because I start thinking of where you got the idea, and all the things they did, and then I start thinking about what he made me do….”

    As for how you deal with your own sin, I’d say that’s between you and your confessor. But you need to be doing it for you and God, not to try to be worthy of her, which is the vibe I’m getting here: she’s a wonderful good girl who just had a bad break in life that she’s trying to heal from, and you’re a dirty creep who wants to become a white knight so you can help her get there. If that’s the case, you’re setting yourself up for a lifetime of pain. Understand that you’re both sinners with things in your past that you need to deal with, and you’d better get on with it, because time’s running out.

    (By the way, I know there are people who don’t kiss until the wedding, and that’s fine. I even admire them a little, assuming they’re doing it for the right reasons. “I’m so afraid of intimacy that I’m going to put off kissing you until I absolutely have to,” is not the right reason. You can’t marry a woman who dreads being intimate with you. You just can’t.)

  101. T says:

    “As for the rest of your post, I’m sorry to say it sounds like a disaster in the making. ”

    The men did a great job explaining this alreeady but just in case hearing it from a woman also helps I will throw in my two cents. It really does sound like a big mess best avoided. If she isn’t incredibly eager to be with you now then she will probably not want you at all later. The two of you should still be in the head over heels stage.

  102. Anonymous says:

    Marry a friend or else it won’t last, as my grandmother says. (Preferably, of course, a friend you also want to screw silly… having both intimacy and “the nasty” going for you make for a stronger and longer-lasting connection.)

  103. Mathetes says:

    I think what wibbins meant by:

    “I seek advice to help strengthen my will so that I can actually resist temptation when I get aroused, after 6 years she just has to kiss me still.”

    was that, “still, after all this time being together, if she just kisses me I get aroused.”

    I don’t know how you can help that. That seems natural. To help with temptation there, you should probably limit heavy kissing, fondling, and/or being alone in private places, since privacy and attraction can lead to bad results. This may sound childish, but you could just kiss in public areas, so that it won’t go far.

    For you and her:
    (1) I’ll assume that she wasn’t raped. Then she was an adult woman when she gave oral to her boyfriend. Before this happened, a whole sequence of steps had to take place: previous intimacy, knowing that she was attracted, going alone to a private place with the boyfriend, probably fondling, and then the deed. If she can’t see her part in this, and her responsibility in the result, then she isn’t an adult woman.

    (2) If she can’t see her responsibility, then she obviously won’t confess her sin. Your note didn’t mention any confession of her sin, or her repentance, or new desire to not be in compromising situations. That is troubling.

    For you and God:
    (1) You need to break the link between masturbation and pornography. I don’t think anyone really cuts out masturbation completely, but the link between the two is bad, since in a merely biological sense the two are associated with each other.

    (2) Remember back to when you watch pornography and masturbate. What conditions are present?
    Are you tired and alone on your living room couch? Go to bed when you are tired.
    Does a late-night tv program cause you to go to your computer? Discontinue watching the tv program.
    Do you surf around after you are finished working at home? Go to the gym, or do something else after you are finished working.
    Find what is triggering the pornography watching and change the trigger.

    (3) If you are still looking at pornography, link it with something else. Every time you are tempted to look at it, do 50 push-ups, or situps, etc. I know it’s easier to say just quit, and if you can do this, then do it, but I’m assuming that it will be a process.

    (4) Try to limit the amount of fantasy that drives your masturbation. If you usually go a day between sessions, go two. Then 3 or 4, etc. Do this till you don’t need much fantasy in your head. Again, I’m just being a little realistic. I don’t think you can quit completely. (Note also that if you marry this gal then this may come back into play since you may look to other places to get the sexual intimacy that you need. Thus, her issues will cause you to have issues.)

    (5) I find that memorizing a verse and reflecting on it helps a lot. Try something like Colossians 3:5 – “Put to death, therefore, whatever belongs to your earthly nature: sexual immorality, impurity, lust, evil desires, and greed, which is idolatry.” Think on this verse, or another similar one, during the day, and when you are tempted.

    (6) In prayer, each day, ask the Lord to help you to stay pure. To live a life worthy of Him.

    (7) This will be a struggle for a while, perhaps a long time. I pray that God will strengthen you.

  104. Solomon says:

    wibbins is actually serious?

    uh, ok then- here’s my two cents:

    she has already emasculated you, your relationship is doomed, and if you don’t clue in before the marriage/kids, you will come to know the most excruciating pain and loss you could have ever imagined. Your “7 year” engagement is a red flag the size of the Pacific.

    Run for your life.

  105. Cane Caldo says:

    @T

    Are you saying that women shouldn’t initiate sex or have I misunderstood?

    However I parse this, you’re likely going to mis-understand, or mis-appropriate, but she really can’t initiate sex, per se, in the sense that full sex only happens when desire literally thrusts out of the man. This happens whether the woman likes it or not.

    I’m not saying that the woman should not be pleasing, or should not call after her lover, but the fact remains that it is something within the man that makes sex happen. Therefore: Give it your best shot, wives. More importantly: Take his best shots.

  106. Jonathan Hart says:

    I like the fire analogy because it illustrates the natural order of things. You can’t say, “The fire isn’t hot, so I’m not throwing any wood in it.”

  107. goodfoot says:

    In the previous comment I accidentally used my real name. Dalrock, can you change it or remove the post, please?

  108. T says:

    @ Cane Caldo “However I parse this, you’re likely going to mis-understand, or mis-appropriate, but she really can’t initiate sex, per se, in the sense that full sex only happens when desire literally thrusts out of the man. This happens whether the woman likes it or not.

    I’m not saying that the woman should not be pleasing, or should not call after her lover, but the fact remains that it is something within the man that makes sex happen. Therefore: Give it your best shot, wives. More importantly: Take his best shots.”

    Makes perfect sense, thanks.

  109. eon says:

    Spacetraveller,

    “It doesn’t seem to matter how much in love or how moral or how well-informed two people are before they get married – it seems to be a common denominator that married people (?more so perhaps now than in previous generations??) all seem to complain about the ‘tailing’ off of intimacy down the line.”

    I think that one problem is that intimacy encompasses much more than sex, and many couples are actual partners in very few ways and on a very superficial level.

    I was surprised (a long time ago) to discover how few couples actually enjoy being together at the deep and encompassing level that I had assumed was normal for everyone.

    There is a huge, huge difference between doing things together, and doing together while also doing things. I have known a few couples who have more bonding and pure enjoyment while also doing chores than most couples have while on a date.

    This comment from Sarah’s Daughter on Sunshine Mary’s site seems like something that would be worthwhile to think about:

    “Think of the women you can tolerate spending time with. **Is there anything about them that fulfills a need you have that your husband does not?** The only thing I can think of for me is a willingness to shop with me (I hate shopping but like having a “nice butt checker” with me so I’ll take a friend who will be honest – there’s no getting RLB [her husband] to shop with me.) **I much prefer hanging out with RLB than any woman.** Now, if I can hardly tolerate women, how much more so for **a man who has a wife who gets his jokes, doesn’t get offended, doesn’t male bash, plays fantasy football with him, talks politics and sports with him, makes him sammiches and doesn’t nag or complain?** ” [Sarah’s Daughter, January 31, 2013 at 1:05 pm, thewomanandthedragon [] wordpress [] com/2013/01/31/temptation-can-men-and-women-be-friends/]

    Best wishes.

  110. Jeremy says:

    @The Karamazov Idea

    Spot on with the engineers comment. If you want to fix a specific problem that requires intervention, an engineer is a blessing. For everything else, they’re a liability. I was at an academic conference and I sat in on a pannel discussing economics and all of the engineers seemed to think that over-intervention is the best strategy. They’re too used to the god’s-eye view of things. Sometimes they fail to see a better engineer than them set up a perfect system.

    I think you only have experience with truly sh*tty engineers then. Real engineers know the beauty of simplicity and uncomplicated systems.

  111. David J. says:

    @Spacetraveller: Apologies — when I first saw your question on the other thread, which Dalrock used to create this post, I thought you were being disingenuous. I realize now that your question was genuine and that you have genuinely appreciated the (obviously unequivocal) answer(s) you’ve been getting. On the whole “men are simple/uncomplicated” point, I recommend that you read (1) Dr. Laura’s book The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands (some in the manosphere deem the title to be condescending, but I’m sure it was not meant that way because the content of the book is not condescending to men at all, and hammers home to wives that their husbands really are as straightforward as they say they are); and (2) from an explicitly Christian perspective, Shaunti Feldhahn’s For Women Only. I think both books will be very helpful to you. Follow through with the advice you’ve received here and the advice in those books and your soon to be husband will be a very fortunate man.

  112. Feminist Hater says:

    I would say Lisa’s husband is in sin. However, he’s not withholding sex as punishment against her or expecting her to perform some duty to receive it, but because of something else. It seems both of them know there’s an issue, body image or some such, and they’re working through it, which is what married couples are meant to do.

    Although 16 years is a long time, it’s never too late to start as they say.

    As for freaking out, why? He might be in sin for withholding sex but he’s in no way saying to other people out there that his behavour is righteous in anyway. This sounds more of a case of calibration between partners, discovering the amount sex that each party needs, rather than the amount of sex one party wants or doesn’t want.

  113. LENA says:

    I just discovered this blog recently. It is a really amazing Christian blog. I am a very devoted christian and try to blend in to the christian community. I am from South Korean and just married my husband and moved here a short while. I read almost every topic in this blog. However, i have to agree with Lisavermont and other concerns people brought up here. What if the husband considers his wife too easy or maybe so slutty in her younger years so that she jumps at every chance her husband offer sex.
    i got married two years ago when i was fresh out of highschool. My husband is divorced with a son. After we got married, we have a short happy period. I never turned him down even when i was sick or stressed out. After a while he started to suspect that i had a very actvive wild life before marrying to him ans still carried on those activity behind his back. He shut me off completely and i am too embarrassed to innitiate any kind of intimate activities. I cooked him hot dinner every night, give him foot rub, and brought him a glass of wine when he got home from work. Basically everything i learnt that american men expect from their wives. I am just barely out of my teenage year and i keep myself very fit and attractive in his eyes by working out everyday, wearing nice clothes, putting on makeup, having long hair. My college female friends think i am attractive, some guys ask me out even with the ring on my finger. I don’t know why he is cold and consider me of easy virtue now ( that is the thing he hated the most in young girls). I tried my best to make him warm up to me again without any success and he keeps telling me what a mistake he made when he married and brought me over here. To be honest, i can go on months and months without sex, but it is justthe fact that he initiated intimacy a few tim a days when were newlyweds but completely ignore me now make me worry about our marriage so much. I agree with almost everything Dalrock says, but women are not the only ones who are cruel and uses sex as weapons against men. Men are capable of that too.

  114. grey_whiskers says:

    @LisainVermont on February 1, 2013 at 6:17 pm –
    (discussion of your husband deleted)

    Asbestos suit on.

    For you:
    1) Why are you posting in the the manosphere? Not challenging, just wondering if there is the “on paper” possibility of being exposed to temptation by some other man who seems kind, strong, (who am I kidding? alpha)…
    1a) Does your husband know/approve of your posting?
    1b) Has *he* discussed this issue with anyone, how big of an issue does *he* consider this to be?
    (Like the old riddle, Q. How many psychiatrists does it take to change a lightbulb, A. Only one. But the light bulb really has to want to change!)

    For your husband:
    2) Is there the possibility he has sexual issues in his past you’re not aware of? Sexual molestation, premarital sex with someone other than you, having cheated on you?
    2a) Have you considered organic, biological problems such as low testosterone?

    For you again:
    3) None of my business, nor anyone else’s on this thread, this question is strictly “take it home and ponder quietly by the fireside by yourself”…
    a) have you found *anything* which more reliably than others gets your husband “in the mood”?
    Makeout sessions, flitting about in lingerie, long foreplay, particular techniques or positions?
    b) In the *act* of intercourse, difficulty in arousal (emotional or physical), difficulty in climax (either premature or never finishing)?
    c) Are there compromises (think of a pregnant or menstruating woman pleasuring her husband while unable to participate in coitus; now turn the tables — are there ways he could help satisfy you in the absence of intercourse? (stupid question in one sense, as it sounds like that would be enabling the problem; on the other hand, it might make the situation bearable until he does turn things around).

    Asbestos suit off

    Back to the regularly scheduled thread.

  115. @ Eon,

    Yes, I see what you mean. The ‘solution’, I am realising now, must lie outside of the realm of sex. You are absolutely right, intimacy is so much more than sex. I think my thinking got sidetracked by people saying things like, ‘We haven’t had sex in the last 3 years’ and not ‘We are not intimate in the last 3 years’, so I erroneously figured it must be in ‘sex’ that the problem lies.

    I must adjust my thinking on this.

    T,

    I think ageing is a factor I had already considered, but I know that it does not fully explain this scenario I describe (unless there is an associated medical issue).

    David J,

    Thank you. I shall read those books. I had already heard about the Feldhahn book (perhaps on this very blog!), so yours is a reminder to go find it…as well as the other book you recommend. Thanks.

  116. Lena,
    I know you are saying you’ve tried to do what American men expect out of marriage but you should know American men are not much different than Korean men. Respect is key. You’re talking here anonymously to find answers, and that’s good, but are you talking (complaining) about your husband to your friends? You are in college and are putting yourself in a position to be asked out by other guys. Are you carrying yourself as a married woman? Your behaviors in some way are making him think you had a wild life before he met you. What are those behaviors?

    Your husband is not using sex as a weapon, there is something he’s turned off about. Oddly enough, the Korean women I’ve known are usually the ones to reject sex once they’re married to Americans and living comfortably in the land of the big PX. You said you’re embarrassed to initiate. Are you giving him the idea that you’re playing like a college girl when you’re away from him and then acting like ajima when you are home?

  117. LisainVermont says:

    Grey Whiskers

    1) Why are you posting in the the manosphere? Not challenging, just wondering if there is the “on
    paper” possibility of being exposed to temptation by some other man who seems kind, strong, (who am I kidding? alpha)…

    I had never heard of the Manosphere until last week. I had googled something like Christian Marriage Advice and came to the Woman and the Dragon blog which had a link here.

    1a) Does your husband know/approve of your posting?

    No. He would be mortified. But, there’s no one in my real life I could seek advice from (other than a therapist who isn’t a Christian) so I figured I might glean something useful from strangers.

    1b) Has *he* discussed this issue with anyone, how big of an issue does *he* consider this to be?

    As far as I know he has not. He’s extremely introverted. I don’t think he believes it’s an issue at all (for him) but he knows it upsets me.

    As far as I know he didn’t have sex with anyone before we were married and he was never abused. He’s never been a typical guy (doesn’t like sports, won’t try to fix things around the house, won’t hang out with guys from church, likes to flower garden, etc.) so maybe he does have low testosterone levels. He definitely isn’t gay, in case you’re wondering.

    Other than the sex issue and the fact that it’s very hard for him to take the lead in our relationship he’s a great guy and a wonderful father and husband.

  118. eon says:

    Spacetraveller,

    You are a very smart lady with a great attitude, and I expect that you, and your husband to be, will create a exceptional marriage.

    “I think my thinking got sidetracked by people saying things like… ”

    What has always helped my thinking is the most frequent advice given by one of my favorite philosophers: 1) state precise definitions, and 2) always check your assumptions.

    Unless you start by first precisely defining all of your key terms, for yourself, you will run into the problem of trying to think using the same words to mean different things, because that is how information was given to you by different people.

    If you don’t realize what is going on, you may end up questioning your abilities, even though no one can sort out that type of a mess. The best solution is to start over, and determine what people actually mean, so that you can correctly label their ideas, before you start to think about them.

    For example, the labels “sex” and “intimacy” are used to mean many different and often mutually contradictory things.

    Sex and intimacy should include each other, but they frequently do not. What passes for sex is often impersonal mutual masturbation, without any emotional vulnerability or connection.

    The other requirement, to check your assumptions, is much harder.

    Your thinking occurs within the context of assumptions, and is significantly influenced by subconscious assumptions. Identifying all of the direct and indirect assumptions that are relevant to whatever you are trying to create or solve takes a lot of analysis and introspection, and leads to a list that is much longer than you were expecting.

    Best wishes.

  119. LENA says:

    @Sarah’s daughter,
    I really appreaciated your sincere opinions and advices. I only posted my comments on this blog and never complained about my situation to either friends or family. He has never allowed me to talk to anyone about out troubles even when there have been times i asked for his permission to seek advices from my parents. You got some points there. I sometimes got asked out by guy friends, received text messages, and chat with them on facebook ; however, i keep the rings on my finger all the time. He keeps blamimg i purposely put myself up on the dating game and so convinced that only God knows what i did in my teenage years. He is a hardcore Christian so he would not stand for that. I have tried to explained to him i was not fooling around back then or sneaking behind his back now.
    He has supported me financially eversince we got married, and i have never taken that for granted. I know that i did not bring anything to the table, but I learnt to cook everything he liked, breakfast in bed on weekends, foot massage every night to show my gratitude and love toward him. I have never worn any clothes that he considers too revealing or do not approve of. There are times i hang out late, but recently i have tried to get home as soon as I am out of school or work. I am in college, but i don’t hook up or respond to flirting. If i make attempt to approach him to better our sex life and marriage life over all, he may think i am a bad girl who cares about nothing but sex or even a sex addict. However, i can not let my marriage fall apart. I also made mistake like taking back at him, threaten divorce ( twice), but i deeply regret it now. If you believed that he is turned off by me and absolutely not using sex as a weapon, is there anything i can do to make him love or desire me again ?

  120. Lena,
    Is it his desire that you are going to college and working? Does he desire for you to have a career? If not, and he’d be happy with you being a homemaker, then that is the first thing that should happen.
    Next, no more threatening divorce – I’m sure you understand that. But he needs to hear and see that you know that was rebellion and sinful to God. He needs to see and know you are submitting to him out of obedience to God with a joyful heart and disposition. No more facebook, no more texting, your first and only priority right now needs to be him.

    Also, ask him if he has a preference for your immersion into American culture. If he doesn’t, no worries. But ask him if he’s okay with you being a Korean in America or if he’d prefer you to become an American. Being a Korean in America you shop at Korean groceries, keep a circle of Korean friends, don’t concern yourself about conversational English, etc. Becoming an American means working on dropping your accent (example: learning how to say the letter “f” (instead of lazily pronouncing it “p”), and knowing which words of a sentence receive proper emphasis – I don’t know how strong your accent is but your writing indicates that you’re still working on conversational English. Is he okay with boiled cabbage smell and garlic, or would he prefer that on special occasions only and a more American diet (roast beef, mashed potatoes and gravy).

    I taught conversational English to Koreans when I lived there and was paid very well for it so I know it is a highly coveted skill. You wouldn’t have to pay as much here, if at all. Find someone (even your husband) to teach it to you – if this is something that he desires.

    I’m assuming your parents are still in Korea correct? He is right to not have you seek advice from them. Submitting to him his key here. Now, it may not be necessary for you to bow. But ask him first, there may be some Korean cultural things he does want you to keep. Men like a gracious servant’s heart, not contrived obedience.

    You were very young when he met you. If you don’t mind my asking, how is it that you met? Is he in the Military?

    One thing he may be encountering is the stigma of bringing back a “war bride.” Or a “mail order bride.” I’ve watched American women berate Soldiers who come back from Korea with Filipina or Korean wives. Even if neither of these is true and the two of you had a traditional courtship, he still may be defending himself against this. Again, this will determine how “Americanized” he would prefer you to be if this is happening. Ask him.

  121. MaMu1977 says:

    Quoted, verbatim, from an 86-year old widow with whom I worked during 2003-2005:”Marriage, for women, is easy. Keep his stomach full, his balls empty, his ears clean and don’t spend his wages on things that you won’t or can’t use.”

    Breakdown, for those among us who are slow or struggling with PC learning.
    Full stomach-know how to cook (well) or how to provide meals cheaply. Even a dumb person can mimic the efforts of good cooks to provide tasty meals; the Food Network and Cooking Channel exist for a reason.
    Empty balls-Dan Savage said it best, “A man is like a cow, and cows need to be milked on a regular basis.” Cows don’t care about the “how’s” of their milking, just that it is done, and they will tell you when the tension is getting too high. Plus, the way that you have sex with him will eventually match up with the way he approaches you. If you like things to go slow, *initiate and carry out* slow seduction. When the kids show up and time is at a premium, warm yourself up and do the 5-minute job. If he’s dirty, act like you have some sense and bring a basin of water to the bedroom. If he’s doing something wrong, *tell him*. If he’s doing something right, his favorite meal is a good way to show appreciation, even if the meal is difficult to make. If you don’t want him staring at Earline or Dotty, don’t treat him like his touch is toxic.
    Clean ears-talk to your spouse in the manner in which you’d like to be spoken. IOW, if it pisses you off when your husband yells, cajoles or whines, don’t return the favour. If he rarely raises his voice or extends his will, but *you* are so strident and forthright that even your family and strangers tend to avoid contact with you, *you’re doing it wrong*. Cleanliness is also a function of physicality as well as emotion. Don’t complain about his smells when you’re the type of woman who fans water and/or use wads of tissue on herself; you aren’t “cleaner”, you’re just masking potential problems.
    Wages, and their use-a man’s wages are tied mainly to the comfort and edification of the home/hearth (the children, then the wife, then himself.) If he’s left with less than three figures per check after bills are paid (assuming that he’s earning over $500/week), you’re doing it wrong. If the children are lacking in their needs (but you, Daddy or Mommy, have everything you want), you’re doing it really wrong. If you want to buy something with house money, it needs to be something that will receive regular use, is low maintenance/high utility and won’t break a budget. Ic it isn’t fitting in those categories, then you need to get a job (Pin Money, anyone?)

    The woman who said this was a Red Cross volunteer, a military spouse and an especially prim and devout Christian. She said those words in response to a group of twentysomething year old female military members who couldn’t figure out how a marriage could last (happily, at that!), for even a decade (again, they were married for *65* years.)

  122. A Northern Observer says:

    @MaMu1977 – LOL! Good words!

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