Romance 101: How to stop frustrating your wife.

One of the common questions on the Marriage and Divorce section of Yahoo Answers comes from husbands who don’t understand why their wife is reacting negatively to their romantic gestures.  One husband recently asked Why does my wife not appreciate me?

Yesterday was my wifes birthday and I sent her flowers to her office. She threw a fit because they were not the flowers she was expecting. Really? First of all, i just sent her a big flower arrangement 2 weeks ago for our wedding anniversary. I didnt want to spend allot of money on these flowers because i am throwing her a suprise party this weekend. Plus I booked her a 3.5 hour massage and bought her a diamond necklace. She doesn’t know that because its a suprise.

The point I am trying to make is, isnt it the thought that counts? Just knowing I love her she be good enough? I think. But apparently it is not.

The answer to his question comes from understanding what women want.  Men are taught repeatedly that what women want are gestures of investment, commitment, and love.  Give her flowers, buy her an expensive dinner, write her a love letter, etc.

In fact these are things women want, but they don’t want them from just any man.  They want them from a man they are attracted to.  If you think about women’s fantasies as represented in romance novels, etc. you will see that women don’t fantasize about having a bevy of ordinary men falling over themselves to give her the most thoughtful gift.  Women fantasize about winning the heart of the dashing hero, and ultimately having him acknowledge this with tokens of his investment, commitment, and love.  These tokens give her comfort that she isn’t hopelessly pursuing an unavailable man.  She wants him to feel too good to be true, but she also wants some reassurance that she isn’t just being conned.

What men are being taught is to skip the hero part and go straight to the expression of love.  They are taught to offer comfort as a way to build attraction, instead of building attraction first and then offering comfort.  It is no wonder that this not only doesn’t work, but often fails spectacularly.

If you try offering comfort without first generating attraction with a woman you aren’t already romantically involved with, the typical responses will be:

Aww, that’s really sweet.  You are going to make some lucky girl (but not me) a great boyfriend/husband some day!

Or (same meaning):

Let’s just be friends.

Or, worst case scenario:

What a creep!

If you do this with your wife, the common responses are an inexplicable and irrational anger and frustration, and perhaps even contempt.  Do this long enough, and you will eventually hear:

I love you but I’m not in love with you.

This last line is the worst of all coming from a wife, because it is a strong signal that a divorce is around the corner.

Fortunately there are things you can do to hopefully recover the situation.  As with anything else, much of this will depend on how big a hole you are already in.  This article assumes you aren’t in a really deep hole here, but that like nearly all husbands you and your wife are both frustrated that your attempts to make her feel loved are at times at least having a very different result.

As you may have guessed, what you need to do is generate more attraction.  It could be that she only needs to feel a bit more attraction than she already does, but for most men it would be difficult to err on the side of too much attraction.  Either way, as her husband you should be able to sense her changed response to you as you regain balance between comfort and attraction.  While generating attraction is as much an art as it is a science, it isn’t as difficult or mysterious as it probably seems right now.  This article isn’t intended to make you a black belt in seduction, but instead to explain the basic problem and get you started on the path to a much happier marriage.

Earlier I mentioned romance novels, and you may be thinking:

I can’t become a romance novel hero.  Those men are caricatures of real men.  Besides, I’m not secretly a wealthy prince, I’m not six foot seven with six pack abs, and I almost never ride a dashing steed while wielding a broadsword.

The good news is you don’t have to become a romance novel hero, you just have to become her hero.  This is very similar to wives becoming discouraged when noticing that their husbands are attracted to super-models or Playboy Playmates.  A woman doesn’t have to be perfect to arouse her husband, she just has to be his Playmate.

Hopefully you can look back on a time in your relationship with your wife when you could tell she was attracted to you.  This might have been during your courtship, or perhaps more recently.  During this time a romantic gesture like flowers from you would have given her that unmistakable gleam in her eye, and sincere delight.  You don’t have to be the flawless hero of a romance novel, you just have to help her see you as her hero the way she did in the past.

Change the dynamic of your relationship.

Women are attracted to men who are leaders, especially men who are leading them.  You probably know of cases which fit the cliché of wives falling in love with their bosses, and this is the mechanism which causes that pattern.  You may or may not be a leader of men, but you absolutely need to become the leader of your household.  This doesn’t mean becoming domineering, but more of a Captain and First Officer model.  Women wanting a man to lead them is counterintuitive given that we live in a fully feminist age.  But there is a difference between what women say and think they want in a man, and what their subconscious wants.  Ignore the fundamentals of human psychology at your peril.

For your own comfort while you learn more you probably want to start off slowly here.  Start making more decisions without seeking your wife’s approval.  Learn not to be timid or afraid of her moods and reactions.  Always remember that she wants you to be her rock, and you can’t be her rock if you are matching the whims of her emotions.  Instead of timidly hugging her, playfully grab her around the waist and pull her into you so she can enjoy your strength.  Stand tall.  In your mind remember that you are a strong and worthy man, and keep that frame as you do these things.

More difficult but also essential is to respond when she challenges you.  Be prepared for her to subconsciously test you to see if you really are cut out to lead the family.  Is he the real deal, or a faker?  Going back to the example of the romance novel, very often the fantasy involves the man taming the woman.  This is also a common theme in literature, with Shakespeare’s Taming of the Shrew being just one example.  While the taming is often dramatic and overt in literature, what you will want to do is much more subtle.  You aren’t looking to break her spirit, but to show your own strength of spirit and conviction and in doing so show her that you are the man she can depend on, the rock she wants to cling to.

Recall the reaction of the wife to her husband sending her flowers at work in the beginning of the post.  Many of the answerers on Yahoo pointed out that she was being a bitch.  While I’ve explained the psychology behind her response, this is still the case;  she responded like a spoiled child.  Her husband needs to see this for what it is, a test of his will and leadership.  Will he succumb to a childish rant and abandon principle out of fear of her emotions?  He needs to see this as an opportunity to demonstrate that he really is her rock.  He needs to calmly call her out on this, and by all means avoid the advice to apologize to her or follow up with even more gifts.  When he does this she very likely will throw an even bigger fit, but if he holds firm with the right frame once she calms down she will begin to see him in a new light.*  He finally stood up to her.

Further Reading

As I wrote above, this isn’t intended to make you an expert at generating attraction from your wife.  Part of the challenge you have is that what you have been taught doesn’t work, but everyone knows that is just how it is.  Because of this, there will be a learning curve and some time required to adjust to the new (accurate) mental model. I’ve included a variety of resources below with the understanding that not all will appeal to all readers, but that hopefully one or several of them will fit your needs.

If you are a Christian I suggest you start with the biblical framing of marriage.  While it is nearly universally ignored or feebly explained away, the Bible makes it clear that the husband is to be the head of the household and the wife is to submit to him.  If you and your wife are faithful enough to follow it, you won’t need any further instruction than the Bible.  However, if you want some more detail as to how you might apply this I’ve written a separate primer on this here.

For those who aren’t Christian, or who are but aren’t prepared to follow the Bible regarding marriage, there are other resources available.  One excellent primer is the Dave from Hawaii post at Château Heartiste.  You may also find some value in reading about my wife’s experience when I began changing the dynamic of our marriage.  I also suggest Hawaiian Libertarian’s post on using these skills outside of a romantic context as well as his excellent post Defining Hypergamy.

Once you’ve read the primers I would suggest checking out Vox Day’s Alpha Game blog and Athol Kay’s book and blog Married Man Sex Life, starting with his posts on Alpha and Beta Male Traits and The MAP.

*Since we are talking about human beings it is impossible to fully predict how she will respond, especially without more information.  If she already views him with full contempt or if she is mentally unstable this could lead to her becoming more irrational and perhaps even to divorce.  However if she would divorce him for failing to apologize for giving her flowers, remaining married to such a woman would be a nightmare, and giving in to her when she is being irrational will generally only make her more enraged.  The risks are the husband’s to bear so only he can decide the right course of action in the end.

Note to “regular” readers:  Please consider the intended audience of this post when commenting on it.  However, please do feel free to share any words of encouragement and advice to husbands who are new to the concept of game and are just learning about it for the first time.  Comments which aren’t appropriate to the specific audience of this post will be removed.

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186 Responses to Romance 101: How to stop frustrating your wife.

  1. FL says:

    I would suggest for men who find themselves in this sort of situation to get a copy of Dr. Robert Glover’s, “No More Mr. Nice Guy.” He does a great job of identifying common issues men have in relationships. Most importantly, he offers many helpful tips to bolster self-esteem and increase levels of self-awareness.

  2. Very useful post Dalrock. It totally perplexes men (me included in the past) when girls would actually respond very badly to receiving flowers! Good insight.

  3. Eoin MacAodh says:

    Imagine how much different my life would be if someone had explained to a young, pubescent Eoin that you have to be attractive FIRST, and only then can you win a girl over with flowers and expressions of devotion.

    Ah, well, what’s done is done.

  4. asdf says:

    Here’s a question for you. I’m dating a girl for five dates or so. I’ve invested time but not much money, though she has invested a lot as well (usually coming to me and doing what I want). She is obviously very interested including lots of indicators of interest while I’ve kept a relaxed attitude.

    We are hitting it off on a lot of levels, but she is infected by feminist ideology. It causes her to be a lot more unfeminine and confrontational then she needs to be. In fact I’d say she’s an extreme feminist, but I’ve avoided those topics and she’s bit her tongue a few times. It hasn’t gotten in the way of the fun, but its definitely something that needs to be addressed. She’s not really wife material without changes. And if I want just fun there are some women I can be with, I’m really trying to find a wife now. I’ve already been burned spending time on a career gal who ended up choosing moving for career over marriage even though we were doing great. I knew that was the kind of person she was on the first date but plowed through anyway. Don’t want to waste time on it again.

    BTW, she grew up in a very fundie (but solid) family in the midwest and I think her feminism is a rebellion against that. Also she has a very high IQ and got sent to one of those religious schools where they teach creationism (she has a biology PhD) and she didn’t like that. She is still religious and traditional but is starting to pick up a lot of bad habits from her environment (liberal east coast city academia). I was hoping her family environment would make her different then most of the girls I meet out here but I wonder if the damage is too far.

    I’ve decided to bring this up directly on the next date because she is not getting the subtle stuff.

    Any tips?

  5. “Any tips?”

    From anyone?? ;)

    I have some, but first a question- Any particular reason why you are looking for a wife “…now”? All the same, my first tip would have been to stop being subtle, but it sounds like you’ve got that one. Next, its as dalrock says, a girl will change for her man if she is attracted to him enough. Get her to want you, and she will change. But that’s the rub tho, eh? And alas, i do think you are approaching it too (for lack of a better word, maybe someone can help me out) desperately to have much success. Anyway, good luck and hopefully you get the advice you’re looking for.

  6. asdf says:

    “Any particular reason why you are looking for a wife”

    I want kids, I’m getting old, I’ve “sown my seed” to a sufficient degree that I’m satisfied.

    I already get everything else your saying already. I’m more looking for specifics as far as tactics go. Especially anyone who has dealt with a girl with a similar background.

    Direct asshole game isn’t always the correct move in every situation. Especially the finding a wife situation (it gets you lots of fucked up sluts with daddy issues, but these girls haven’t exactly been wife material).

  7. Aurini says:

    Dalrock, I apologize for hijacking your comment thread, but I think I may have stumbled upon something new for the Mandrosphere:
    ***
    “I love having a job.” To us Men this sounds perfectly idiotic. Who actually enjoys working?

    Men need to conquer a mammoth; women need to be part of the group.

    What do you think the modern corporation is?

    The modern corporation is the gatherer environment. People preen about in fancy clothes, they perform the minutiae of filing TPS reports, and everyone pretends to be happy and like one another.

    Women really do love working in this setting.
    ***
    Full post here: http://www.staresattheworld.com/2012/11/the-corporate-coven/

    Keep up the good work, brother.

  8. Dalrock says:

    @asdf

    My advice would be to only marry if the woman has it within herself to hold to the vows. You give up a great deal legally when getting married and all you get in return is the moral force the vows hold on her. For most women this isn’t much. Here are some of my previous posts on the topic:

    Hostage negotiator for life?
    That way rationalization lies
    Should you game your prospective wife into submission?
    Are young marriages doomed to divorce?
    Interviewing a Prospective Wife Part II: Interview Questions

    I assume you are already familiar with Threatpoint, since I’ve been linking to it pretty frequently. One key thing to remember is the bulk of the threatpoint comes when you have children. Marriage poses a part of the challenge, but fatherhood is the trap feminists and social conservatives have set for honest men. This is where much of the risk is.

    I hope this helps.

  9. BC says:

    Wow. Cancel the surprise party and massage, return the diamond necklace, use the refund to buy something manlyfor yourself that you have wanted for a while, and completely blow off the rest of any birthday celebration. Don’t bitch her out about it, and don’t let her fight you about it – leave and do something with ‘the guys’ instead until she is ‘ready to talk’ (but only on your terms). Whatever behavior you reward is the behavior you will get, and lots of it.

  10. Matt says:

    @asdf

    My advice: leave. If she’s confrontational and unfeminine now, she likely won’t change.

    It is a fool’s errand to think that a person can be changed after you marry them or spend time around them. It does sometimes happen, but don’t bet you future on it. It is not your responsibility to make the necessary “changes” to this girl.

    If you’re already “old” and want to have kids, don’t waste your time trying to fix somebody. Pack it in, move on and find somebody that’s already worth marrying.

  11. Twenty says:

    @asdf

    Break it off with her and leave the country. You’re 5 dates into it — that’s nothing. And from what you write, she’s got “basket case” written on her forehead in flashing neon. Radical-fundie-to-extreme-feminist is basically code for “nutso”. The “high IQ” / “Ph.D.” thing isn’t good, either — indicates she draws her self worth from masculine endeavors, which will cause nothing but grief.

    If you *must* pursue things with this one in particular, try: “I’m never getting married in this country because the laws are ridiculously unfair to men.” See how she reacts to that. She’ll never be worth a damn unless she has *another* conversion and explicitly rejects feminism. Pussy-footing about won’t do any good.

  12. driversuz says:

    Tom, you make some good points, but walking away is the last step. It may be a necessary step, but it’s not the first one. I think Dalrock’s post gave an outstanding introduction to the Red Pill. In the most immediate and practical terms, I would recommend BC’s approach first. The OP should put his foot down hard, NOW. Tell her “It’s my way or the highway,” and give her a choice before hitting the highway himself. He will probably need to go nuclear at this point in the relationship, just to get her to take him seriously, but if the marriage can be saved, Dalrock’s advice is excellent for the long term. Remember, the guy is all Blue Pill; every word of this is revolutionary for him.

  13. ballista74 says:

    Great post! At risk of being too much of a publicity whore, but in the interest of helping for further reading (I post predominantly from a Christian perspective):

    My post on keeping the proper frame in your life.
    My first post on defining Biblical Marriage(There’s 9 total)
    The value of promises and actions when it comes to the marriage commitment, as opposed to feelings

  14. Cane Caldo says:

    If the average working-to-middle class man is trying to attract his wife, and he has $500 to spare, he’d do better to buy a suit for himself than jewelry for her.

    @asdf

    It sounds like you pick non-marriageable women. Why do you date careerists? Have you ever noticed what kind of men feminists date?

    Remember: “If you can’t figure out who the mark is, you’re the mark.”

    From your comments at Social Pathologist’s, I’d strongly suggest you get a better understanding of women before you think about marrying anybody. You are ripe for the picking, it seems to me.

  15. BC says:

    @asdf: bail

  16. ballista74 says:

    @asdf:

    She’s not really wife material without changes.

    You answered your own question. Bail. Better to be single than to be married to a woman who will make your life a living hell in the end just because “I want kids, I’m getting old, I’ve “sown my seed” to a sufficient degree that I’m satisfied.”

  17. Jack Amok says:

    Tom,

    I don’t think its’ “become her hero,” I think it’s “become the hero you use to be.” Guys fall into a trap of getting comfortable, complacent, losing their competitive edge. But there’s no retirement from the SMV, even when you’re married. If you go from dashing alpha she married to slovenly beta doormat, it’s like her putting on fifty pounds after the honeymoon. Hey, where’s the person i married?

    @asdf: I agree with the folks saying bail. Too many red flags. But if you insist on giving it a try, I’d suggest laying down the law on the feminism. Next time she says something objectionable, just say “Look, you’re an okay kid, but this Angry Feminist crap you keep pulling has got to go. You’re not oppressed and The Patriarchy isn’t out to get you. I don’t want to spend my future with somebody who’s bitter at the world, so knock it off.” Don’t yell it. Don’t say it with anger or bitterness in your own voice. Say it matter-of-fact with maybe a hint of frustration. And don’t debate it with her afterwards.

    If she blows up, walk away. If she apologizes, maybe she’ll work out. It might take her a day or two to apologize, especially if she’s not used to having her behavior corrected.

  18. Opus says:

    Two years ago I sent my sometime-girlfriend a present which I had some reason to believe she might enjoy and would provide her with hours of amusement – she never even opened it! – with some excuse about over-work (well on the way to her feminist merit badge).

    Last Xmas I sent her a neckless of Azis-Azuli (I think it a beautiful rock), and all you can do is wear it around your neck. This time I was clearly that 6’7″ guy with the abs and looks – she loved it and her mother was purring too with jealousy.

    As Xmas is in only a few weeks, I am absolutely lost as to what I should send this year. Can’t do rocks again, but, more fun presents don’t seem to work. Does Dalrock or any of his readers have any good ideas for me?

  19. BC says:

    “Become her hero” is the feminine imperative.

    Become the man you want to be. Improve yourself in order to live the life you want to live. Make yourself better for yourself, and rediscover how to enjoy your life with or without anyone else.

    Then just let her know that is who you are and how you are going to live. She is welcome to join you, but if it’s not win-win, then maybe it’s best to go you separate ways. Fo a person who decides to get married or even just live together in a LTR, your choice of partner will determine 90% of the happiness and joy, and 90% of the anger and despair in your life. If you choose a happy person, you are more likely to be happy. If you choose an angry and argumentative person, paying 50+% to get out of a bad deal may end up a bargain if it lets you move on.

  20. BC says:

    @Tom: Outstanding. We are essentially saying the same thing (men kowtowing to feminine imperative = bad), but your comments are a magnitude of power stronger.

    I would say that learning game is still important for learning about female psychology because modern fem-centric society has stripped that knowledge away and limited many men’s chances to learn about it naturally. However, I also think that game should not be one’s end-game. For me, a self-aware, game-aware and more or less financially stable/independent MGTOW (either married or not) is an ideal to strive for.

  21. freebird says:

    Breaking news:
    The prettier she is the more likely she is to be a psychopath.

    http://main.aol.com/2012/11/30/psychopaths-dark-personality-hot-more-attractive-study_n_2218568.html

  22. KMan says:

    Great intro post Dalrock. I really appreciate that you spend the time explaining things to the new guys, because a lot of blogs on the manosphere assume a ridiculous amount of terminology and there can be an oddly hostile environment towards questions.

    New guys, if you are reading this, here’s my advice. Your reaction to a lot of what you read here or in the links will generate a lot of questions in your mind, but I advise you to be careful about where and how you ask them. Possible reactions to questions include people labelling you as a feminist or “white knight” (for daring to question anything), people giving you all sorts of extreme and disproportionate advice (“she did something minutely disrespectful to you? it’s a lost cause – divorce her, take the children and flee the country.”)

    My theory is that this dynamic is caused by people being in various stages of “red pill” conversion. Here’s a rough outline of what I observe as the stages involved:

    Denial: Someone sends you a link to a post like this and you think “well this doesn’t apply to me.” Everyone there seems to have an axe to grind. What’s so bad about feminism/etc anyway?
    Trying to make comments at this stage will elicit hostility, because you will be seen as part of the problem. Occasionally someone will be helpful and try to point you to evidence instead of name-calling, but don’t count on it.
    Something is rotten in the state of marriage/relationships/etc: Okay, so maybe there’s a problem. Time to start reading and thinking. Posts on this particular or that particular blog seem to resonate especially well with you. You’re not completely sure what or whom to believe any longer.
    In this stage, your mind is in the process of dismantling some parts of your foundational beliefs and building new beliefs, while simultaneously guarding your most important beliefs. In the confusion that ensues, there are two different ways you can end up treading on people’s toes. One way is to show any reservations about someone else’s identification of ‘the culprit’ – for example, if someone has decided that the church is largely responsible and you want to defend its importance or worth. The other way is to show reservations about someone else’s identification of ‘the solution’; many people will insist that ‘game’ is the only solution and I don’t recommend arguing with these people because they are probably only in stage 3 [in fact, I will probably be attacked by these exact people just for suggesting this, but the psychology is understandable].
    The pain relief of confirmation: Having identified the problem and the solution, you find new energy and hope – perhaps there is a way to improve your relationship or have a better one in future. But everyone else in your life is telling you something different – you’re going to need to find some things which confirm your new foundations and explain why those other people are misguided.
    I believe that most comments on the manosphere are written by people in this stage. Many of these people have at some point experienced tremendous loss or pain, and the hope they found in their new understanding of the world is the only relief they can find. It’s understandable, therefore, that anything which might threaten their understanding is attacked with fervour. Especially comments from anyone in stage 1 or 2. If someone believes that ‘game’ is the solution to all of life’s problems, you’re not going to be able to convince them otherwise, because it’s all that’s holding their world together. Making comments on these blogs is therapeutic for them, and helps take their mind off other issues. The level of rationality or willingness to tolerate other opinions will depend on the degree to which the person relies on their new-found perspective for comfort.
    Crisis over, lessons learned.: Given time, life continues. You come to accept where you are, and you either move on to other things or you stick around for a while to try to help others you see having the same problems.
    Not everyone reaches this stage. Some people never find enough confirmation for their views in stage 3 and they just go back to some compromise with their previous views (stage 1). Some people start again and try to identify a new problem and new solution on which to focus their energy (stage 2 then 3). People who do reach stage 4 don’t always make a lot of comments, but when they do, they are generally very helpful. They can understand where people are at, having been there themselves, but no longer feel the need to react defensively to slight disagreements. They have more room for nuance and appreciation of human weakness and frailty to balance overt idealism. If you are reading this post, then consider yourself fortunate to have found Dalrock whom I believe is an excellent example of someone in this final stage that works to help others.

    (I hope the list above comes out properly – there’s no comment preview functionality so I’m just hoping the HTML will be accepted.)

  23. Funny, I was reading the latest Olen Steinhauer novel (Milo Weaver Series….if you like Le Carre and Greene , the old cold war masters, you’ll love Olen) and a Chinese female spy sent to the US to seduce a senate aid says “Americans feel disappointed when serendipity and little cinematic miracles do not fill their relationships, it goes a way to explaining the high divorce rate”

    How’s a man to compete with first that, then the divorce fantasy movie that they will watch on Lifetime?

  24. KMan says:

    Okay, so the list didn’t come out like I had hoped. Please imagine there’s the appropriate numbering before each bold text.

  25. taterearl says:

    I never read a romance novel until I saw posts about women reacting to 50 shades of grey. So out of curiousty I went to the library and picked out a random novel. I tell you reading it after knowing what I know was a very good learning experience.

    And I never saw anything in the book about giving flowers or jewelry to the chick as a romantic gesture. The guy leading the charge is where the romance came from.

  26. Lovekraft says:

    How about this one: at home with the SO and her step-son, I developed a rotating dishwashing routine that is fair and verifiable. Purpose is to neutralize her whining about her “always having to do the dishes.”

    What happened? You guessed it. She messed up the routine to the point where I am not going to adhere to it anymore. Don’t care.

    Let her come up with a solution, then screw it up just for shits and giggles. Her actions demonstrated to me that women today bristle at structure if it means she won’t have control and the ability to stir it up.

    BTW, I do have a pre-nup.

  27. I wasted many years thinking I wanted my husband to buy me flowers and gifts. I couldn’t figure out why I felt, “meh” when he would do it. This is how seriously messed up our brains are. I thought maybe it was because I suspected he’d do it, it was predictable (my birthday, Valentine’s Day, whatever). So I told him how I loved surprises. If he’d just surprise me with things occasionally, that would make me happy. He did…same “meh” reaction in my head. I’d show him gratitude but it was nothing like the response I had when a few years ago he started slapping my ass as he walked by me. When I screech, “ouch” he grabs me and say’s “here, let me rub that for you.” ~butterflies.
    Just a few minutes ago he didn’t know where I was and said loudly in an exaggerated low voice, “Woman!” ~ tee hee hee. (Yep, 17 years in and he makes me “tee hee hee” like a school girl).

    Forget flowers.

  28. taterearl says:

    “Her actions demonstrated to me that women today bristle at structure if it means she won’t have control and the ability to stir it up.”

    Women today???? This has been going on since Eve

  29. Bob Wallace says:

    I am half-owner of a floral shop and I do not take women’s complaint’s seriously. Many of them want the arraignment perfect and if it’s not they expect a new one while keeping the old one. They don’t appreciate a dozen roses (which are expensive). If they don’t appreciate what they’re given tell them to go to hell. I’ve had them call me and want a new arraignment (again while keeping the old one) and I’m told them if they don’t give the old one back I’ll take them to small-claims court. They are stunned and back down.

    If a women doesn’t appreciate anything you give her she’ll never appreciate flowers no matter how expensive or complicated the arraignment.

  30. Feminist Hater says:

    This is why you need a strong father in a girl’s life. Someone needs to tell her ‘NO’ in no uncertain terms. If no one ever tells her to stop, to calm down or to be appreciative of what she has and that there are direct consequences for showing disrespect; nothing is ever going to be enough. She will continue to pester until such a time as she’s either met with a brick wall or complete indifference from those people, family or friends, who used to care about her.

    The female is a destructive force when given the freedom to do what she pleases, she will lay waste to entire Civilisations because her appetite can never be satiated once it has been let loose.

    The same could be said of men, quite frankly, if we were given complete power to do whatever we please, with no boundaries, we too would destroy. Then again, there seems to be no end to the calls to curb male freedom…

  31. Dalrock: “Her husband needs to see this for what it is, a test of his will and leadership. Will he succumb to a childish rant and abandon principle out of fear of her emotions? He needs to see this as an opportunity to demonstrate that he really is her rock.”

    If any man voluntarily, without being under the influence of drugs, threw a tantrum at me for giving him “the wrong kind of gift”, this would result in a great deal of definitive violence. If a woman voluntarily, without being under the influence of drugs, threw a tantrum at me for giving her “the wrong kind of gift”, this would also result in a great deal of definitive violence. The fact that a woman is a woman does not give her a pass and does not make her any less evil for responding to kindness with spite and malice.

    A woman’s correct response to “the man not being man enough” isn’t to throw a childish tantrum, It’s to tell the man, rationally and considerately, what she wants in a man, and work it out with him whether he is willing to be that kind of man. If she’s incapable of that, then she’s very likely incapable of marriage.

  32. taterearl says:

    “A woman’s correct response to “the man not being man enough” isn’t to throw a childish tantrum, It’s to tell the man, rationally and considerately, what she wants in a man, and work it out with him whether he is willing to be that kind of man. If she’s incapable of that, then she’s very likely incapable of marriage.”

    LOL!!!!

  33. YOHAMI says:

    Awesome post, Dalrock

  34. I can’t get past the 3.5 hour massage. Do the masseurs take turns, spelling each other when they get tired? How many orgasms come with that?

  35. judgybitch says:

    Wow! I lead a very sheltered life because I simply cannot imagine a woman acting like the one in the post. My first reaction was exactly the same as Tom’s: Here’s your fucking flowers and don’t let the door hit you in the ass on the way out. On second thought, let it, you selfish bitch.

    But Suz has a good point, too, especially if this couple has kids. No way are the kids (or Dad) gonna be better off if the marriage is terminated. But that woman … flowers, a massage, a diamond necklace…I just can’t… FUCK HER.

  36. Men are taught repeatedly that what women want are gestures of investment, commitment, and love. Give her flowers, buy her an expensive dinner, write her a love letter, etc.
    In fact these are things women want, but they don’t want them from just any man.

    Bingo. The example I like to use is the iconic scene from Say Anything, when John Cusack stands in the rain holding the boombox over his head, while the girl sobs inside, and eventually they get back together. Any woman of my generation will sigh and get weak in the knees when you mention that scene. A guy sees that and focuses logically on the chain of events: “Okay, so that’s what women want. If I make some huge, embarrassing gesture of devotion, the girl I love who won’t give me the time of day will totally fall for me.” He misses the fact that, in the movie, the girl is already in love with the boy (because he was kind of an intriguing loser from the other side of the tracks, mostly), and she’s only avoiding him because of her dad. And the boombox ploy didn’t even work — she still avoided him until her dad crashed in her eyes and the plot let her go back to the guy she wanted all along.

    So even chick flicks from the 80s understood this better than most guys do today. If a girl is totally in love with you, then by all means make gestures of devotion. But if she’s not, or if she’s wavering, they’ll have the opposite effect of what you’re looking for.

  37. Farm Boy says:

    My dad was a very nice beta, and my mom loved him dearly. But she was raised in different era, one where ladies were taught to respect men for being breadwinners and fathers.

  38. driversuz says:

    Jack,
    “Guys fall into a trap of getting comfortable, complacent, losing their competitive edge.”

    I know you’re not simply saying, “Man Up,” and that much of the burden really does fall on the husband. However, if I may qualify your statement a bit, most guys don’t simply “fall into that trap,” they are pushed into it. Or nudged into it slowly. They aren’t necessarily becoming lazy (OK, a few are) but most of them think they’re being proactive by doing what they’ve been taught will please their wives. When they don’t make much progress, they either become discouraged or they try harder, using those same ineffective techniques. The wives of course, not knowing what they really want, don’t come out and say, “Dear, you’re doing it wrong,” until far too much damage has been done. I don’t see it so much as a “trap,” but rather a rut worn into the landscape by the continuous back-and-forth interactions that neither the husband nor the wife understand.

  39. Uncle Elmer says:

    I tell you what. I bought a massage table a month ago for $150 delivered and it’s been great. ForeignBride loves it.

  40. Feminist Hater says:

    Eish, must have been something wrong with Tom’s post.

  41. CL says:

    That woman needs a sound spanking, but if this husband did it he’d probably end up in jail. I don’t know the way around that.

    This is all so much simpler with faith. I’ve been on both sides of that and always keeping in mind what God wants of me shows clearly the whispers of Satan for what they are. Of course, 7man makes it pretty easy on me too.

    A good leader is worth his weight in gold, and a woman would be a fool not to set herself at his feet. It becomes a self-reinforcing affirmative cycle, rather than the vicious one we’ve probably all of us here experienced at some point, but it does require mutual vigilance and maintenance. It is much easier to fix a small fault in the seam of a garment than it is to fix a huge tear in the cloth itself.

    As for the taming fantasy, when a man tames a woman, it bonds her to him and establishes his ownership. He then protects his property because he has an investment in it and it is valuable. These things would not be present in a relationship with the fantasy ready-made woman. A spanking tames her emotions in a straightforward way, but many men are too timid for this and many women resist it.

  42. Miserman says:

    Great post. This is, for me, one of those posts that is the most threatening to feminism. If all guys did was take the red pill and complain, then the status quo would go on. However, establishing the basics of actually applying the red pill information is an act of revolution. The greatest danger has never been that men would realize the truth. It is that they would apply it.

  43. @asdf,

    Before you bail, you could try just telling her that the ball-busting feminist act doesn’t do anything for you, and you wish she’d let her guard down because you know there’s a sweet, attractive woman on the inside. A hard neg softened by a compliment, with a hint that you know her better than she thinks. You said she grew up where she should have gotten a decent foundation, so the tough feminist thing could be an act she puts on because that’s what she’s been told since she left home that she’s supposed to become, or as a rebellion, like you said. Those things can become habits. It’s possible that she knows how to be feminine, but doesn’t realize anyone might want her to be.

    If you say something like that, not with anger, but just matter-of-fact, she probably won’t know how to react, but you’ll be putting her on notice about what you want. She might get mad, but don’t pay any attention to that; watch how she acts after some time goes by. If she starts to act more feminine or asks for your guidance in that area, you’ll know she’s willing to work on it, and you can decide whether to give her time to get it right. If she just ramps up the feminism, you’ll know to bail for sure.

  44. Uncle Elmer says:

    @asdf

    You will exhaust yourself trying to deprogram her, and she will still revert to quirky behavior when situations are not to her liking. My ForeignBride, as seen in “A Man Wants a Wife, Not a Co-Worker”, arrived with the correct operating system and application programs and has performed error-free since I booted her up.

    I still however must apply “game” daily to keeper her happy and functional, but it doesn’t exhaust me, in fact it’s fun and energizing. When she returned home a few months ago I tole her I missed her, that life was empty and pointless because I had no one to argue and fight with every day. She laughed and requested I make rude pillow-talk, which I cheerfully obliged.

    I commend Dalrock for his professional writing on this subject.

  45. sunshinemary says:

    @ any married Christian male readers who are new to all this

    Christianity as it is currently being practiced is problematic with respect to the marital hierarchy. Yes, the Bible is the perfect guide and every word is true and right. The problem is that the teaching you are getting from the pulpit is probably very much saturated in feminism. Churchianity means following the church instead of the Bible – avoid this! It is femDOM through and through. Churchianians will seek to betatize men (that means “make them submissive to women”) and almost always present women as the more moral and spiritual sex.

    If you see any of these things at your church:

    1. Mutual submission is being preached as a model for marriage
    2. Females pastors
    3. A large, thriving ladies’ Tuesday morning Bible studies that is not under the leadership of any particular man
    4. non-judgmental ministries aimed at women who “happen to find themselves” single mothers

    then be assured that not only will your woman continue to fitness test you but now she’ll believe she’s got God on her side. You will live under the paws of her Holy Rationalization Hamster and she will despise you for it. She’s not supposed to have moral authority over you, so call her out on that if she considers herself the “spiritually mature one in the home.”

    FemDOM Christian women are the worst kind, worse than garden-variety feminists. Someone should write a book about how to deal with them.

  46. Cohan Monkey says:

    Hey, Dalrock. This is a little (but only non-holistically) off-topic. I and I’m sure others would be interested in your comments on this new ‘A Nation of Singles’ article in The Weekly Standard by Jonathan Vast.

    http://m.weeklystandard.com/articles/nation-singles_664275.html

    Key takeaways:

    “Among nonmarried voters​—​people who are single and have never married, are living with a partner, or are divorced​—​Obama beat Romney 62-35. Among married voters Romney won the vote handily, 56-42.”

    “Over half of the voting-age population in America​—​and 40 percent of the people who actually showed up to vote this time around​—​are single.”

    “Nearly three-quarters of all single women are white. In other words, the cohort looks a lot like the Julia character the Obama campaign.”

    “Once a society begins veering away from marriage and childbearing, it becomes a “self-reinforcing mechanism” in which the cult of the individual holds greater and greater allure.”

    “[A] society that is increasingly single and childless is likely to be more concerned with serving current needs than addressing the future. We could tilt more into a ‘now’ society, geared towards consuming or recreating today, as opposed to nurturing and sacrificing for tomorrow.”

    (16 trillion US debt, anyone?)

    “Without the responsibility of families to provide for, unmarried American males have historically tended to drop out of the labor force.”

    “The Democratic party clearly believes that single Americans will support policies that grow the government leviathan while rolling back the institutions that have long shaped civil society.”

    “Limited government cannot be maintained where the marriage culture collapses and families fail to form or easily dissolve. Where these things happen, the health, education, and welfare functions of the family will have to be undertaken by someone, or some institution, and that will sooner or later be the government.”

    “The two greatest institutions ever devised for lifting people out of poverty and enabling them to live in dignity are the market economy and the institution of marriage. These institutions will, in the end, stand or fall together.”

    OK, so far so good. I’m not seeing much in Vase’s analysis that your audience would disagree with. It’s his proposed solution that is, well, lets call it unconvincing:

    “Instead of trying to bribe single America into voting Republican, Republicans might do better by making the argument​—​to all Americans​—​that marriage is a pillar of both freedom and liberalism.”

    WTF? Good luck with that. Vase is proposing the legal monstrosity of Marriage 2.0 as the solution to the very problems that – both individually and socially – are in reality created by Marriage 2.0. Lola.

    What say you?

  47. driversuz says:

    Elmer:
    …”it doesn’t exhaust me, in fact it’s fun and energizing.”

    Acting masculine does that to men. Of course, it feels a lot more like work when it’s done with a female who doesn’t respond with femininity.

  48. 7man says:

    The solution is simple.

  49. sunshinemary says:

    Now, 7man, don’t you think a hairbrush works better than a hand? ;)

  50. Mint says:

    PERFECT, Dalrock! This is the sort of post we’ve been waiting for.

  51. asdf says:

    Matt,

    She has not been confrontational because we haven’t hit on such issues. However, I can tell from body language and tone of voice on tangential matters that it will be a conflict.

    “It is a fool’s errand to think that a person can be changed after you marry them or spend time around them.”

    I’ve been trying to determine who her true self is. One thing I’ve learned is that girls are shaped a lot by their family environment. She had a very good family environment. If she simply acts how her parents acted (which is what most people end up doing) she will make a good wife. I’ve been trying to determine if modernism and her current environment has poisoned the well or if its still good.

    “The “high IQ” / “Ph.D.” thing isn’t good”

    It is necessary for me. I have extremely high IQ. You can only communicate well with people within 1 SD of you, and ok with people within 2 SD. Beyond that its pretty much impossible. This eliminates a large chunk of the female population.

    “indicates she draws her self worth from masculine endeavors”

    Fully agreed. We will discuss her femininity and make it clear I’m looking for her to give up her career to raise children no debate. I have no issue with this its just not my first date opener.

    “Pussy-footing about won’t do any good.”

    I agree. It’s not that I’m avoiding it, its that there has been no reason to have the conversation yet. We’ve just been having fun doing things I want to do. I wasn’t going to start an argument for no reason until I knew I would actually be spending more then a few dates with her.

    “Why do you date careerists?”

    I would assume its a combination of my high IQ, income, and location appealing to careerist women combined with my large health problems and small frame also making me seem attainable (he has all the things I wanted in other men I failed to get, but because he has these flaws I can probably actually get him). If your a late 20s/early 30s girl who needs to date up but doesn’t have the feminine goods to do so and doesn’t want to take too big a chance because she’s at the wall then I probably fit some venn diagram for them. I already know this game and try to screen them out but I’m well aware of where a lot of the interest comes from.

    Of course who knows. The last girl I dated was intensely feminine and all we did was fuck. She also had a man and three kids she kept secret for months.

    “From your comments at Social Pathologist’s, I’d strongly suggest you get a better understanding of women before you think about marrying anybody.”

    SP is an idiot, but whatever. I know I probably shouldn’t get married but I can’t shake the desire for children. It’s important enough to me to be worth the risk.

    Cail Corishev says:,

    Yes, I was already thinking this. Thanks.

    Uncle Elmer,

    “You will exhaust yourself trying to deprogram her”

    I have no intention of that. We haven’t had this conversation because we just met each other and she really hasn’t misbehaved. If she doesn’t change right away I won’t be wasting time on her. That is why I want to have this conversation even though I don’t need to. Because we could go on having shallow fun for awhile but it will still be out there.

  52. asdf says:

    BTW, she is making me dinner next Saturday and we will discuss all this.

  53. Badger says:

    I’ve had a post in draft form that jives with this. It goes like this:

    -Women will say they want a guy to “make them feel special.”
    -Men are taught that to make a woman “feel special” is to do a lot of things for her and pay her a lot of special attention.
    -However, usually the way to “make her feel special” is to be a higher-value man. Women feel special when a high-value man lets them into his life. It’s not the actions, it’s the fact they are being done by a high-value man.

    As an aside, learning dominance is great, but at the same time, for a typical guy, the easiest and most accessible way for him to raise his value is to get into better shape – by lifting with weights and improving his diet.

  54. 7man says:

    @asdf

    If you want to learn how the story ends, then watch the rest. The dymanics of the alpha, the White Knight, the timid men, the exapserated men, the sheep type women and the women of fire can easily be seen.

    There are no new problems under the sun.

  55. Michael says:

    This is so much work… I have to do this? Just to keep a women from carving my heart out and taking half?

  56. Dalrock says:

    @Michael

    This is so much work… I have to do this? Just to keep a women from carving my heart out and taking half?

    I’m not sure which you are referring to. If you are referring to the no fault divorce presumed wife custody machine, then I understand your concern (and have written much about the problem). But it is what it is. You I take it have chosen not to marry. This post isn’t about whether men should marry or not, but about educating already married men for their and their wife’s benefit. With that in mind, if you are referring to learning that sometimes a wife will respond better to a playful hug, a bit of teasing, or a smack on the ass better than she will respond to flowers or an expensive gift, I disagree. Likewise to being the leader. Being the leader comes with responsibility, but husbands already have all of the responsibility anyway. What is stressful is trying to be responsible without being able to lead.

    I’m trying to build a landing pad for husbands totally unaware of the mechanics of attraction with this post. I don’t get the hostility. If you don’t like what I’m building, why not pass on commenting on this one post?

  57. Audrey says:

    Another resource that may be helpful is the Five Love Languages by Chapman. While Christian based, all audiences will find his insights revealing — sometimes learning how to say “I Love You” in a way your partner can hear is a step in increasing your attrativeness.

  58. freebird says:

    @Fh
    “The female is a destructive force when given the freedom to do what she pleases, she will lay waste to entire Civilisations because her appetite can never be satiated once it has been let loose.

    The same could be said of men, quite frankly, if we were given complete power to do whatever we please, with no boundaries, we too would destroy. Then again, there seems to be no end to the calls to curb male freedom…”

    That is exactly what I was thinking earlier,that so much effort goes into controlling and defining men and very little goes the same for women,as they seem to have inherent worth and status and a man has to begin with the supposition of badness and unworthiness,it seems the females not only have a lot more freedom,they get a lot handed to them by default.
    It also seems it didn’t use to be this way,that men where men and had some basic respect coming in the door,and the woman was till freer to do as she pleased,but had to work had for the commitment.
    Today’s woman thinks she can use one man and the next will ignore it and come looking for more of the same.
    I guess Hefner’s grotto has been replaced by HR and the woman’s gender bender board of inquiry at the colleges.
    The difference being:men *never* put the heavy boot upon the neck,but women n.o.w. start out with that move.

  59. Feminist Hater says:

    Not appropriate for the current topic but still interesting. Another ‘study’ finds out that men are evil. Even when their wives have careers.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2241324/Women-careers-twice-likely-victims-domestic-abuse-threaten-mens-authority-power.html

  60. Tam the Bam says:

    Bob Wallace: ” They don’t appreciate a dozen roses (which are expensive). If they don’t appreciate what they’re given tell them to go to hell …
    If a women doesn’t appreciate anything you give her she’ll never appreciate flowers no matter how expensive or complicated the arrangement.”

    Anybody who doesn’t prefer a few roses or carnations (OK so I’m cheap) as a personal tribute over a huge bundle of vegetable matter is an utter pleb. No class.
    If she pulled a nasty stunt like that, I’d be sorely tempted to go straight back to the shop and order a dozen lilies. They’re pricey too, I recall.
    And pay to have them delivered to her door by an athletic fellow in a Wm. Fioravanti suit and Raybans. In perfect silence.
    How’s that for a surprise, darlin’?

  61. ybm says:

    I always found flowers weren’t as good as actual plants as gifts.

    I gave a woman a stargazer for her birthday one year. I was the one who was seeing stars after that one hahaha.

  62. Jack Amok says:

    Driversuz,

    Actually, I am just saying “Man up.”

    But, what I mean by “Man up” isn’t what the typical feminist means by it. I literally mean be more of a man. Be masculine, be goal-oriented, be decisive and show leadership. Take risks, reap rewards, have adventures. Live your life with a purpose (and that purpose isn’t to make her haaaaaaaaappy).

    Adopt that definition of “man up” and then the next time some feminut tells you that you need to “man up”, you can give an emphatic nod of your head, get a huge grin, and say “You’re right! I am going to man up. I think I’ll go sign up for that blacksmith class I’ve been meaning to take. See if you can have a cold beer waiting for me when I get back.” Give her a (metaphorcal, unless it’s your wife) slap on the ass and then offer to rub it for her. (love that Sarah’s D, I’ll have to add the “let me rub it for you” bit).

    Progressives are famous for stealing perfectly good words and phrases and giving them screwy meanings. Let’s steal this one back.

    most guys don’t simply “fall into that trap,” they are pushed into it. Or nudged into it slowly…

    Well, maybe the right phrase is that they fall for the disinformation. Some of that disinformation comes from themselves too. Men and women are – astonishingly enough – different, and they want differnt things. A left shoe doesn’t want another left shoe for a partner, it wants a right shoe. But we forget that too easily (and society doesn’t bother to teach it any more) and start thinking that a woman wants from us the same things we want from her. Next thing you know, the guy is acting too feminine and his wife is frustrated.

    Women make that mistake too, as evidenced by all the “career” women who are astonished that guys aren’t attracted to their careers.

    I don’t see it so much as a “trap,” but rather a rut.

    yes, a rut is a good descriptions. Let’s just say too many guys get trapped in a rut.

    So, “man up” and get out of your rut, guys.

  63. Looking Glass says:

    Michael said “This is so much work… I have to do this? Just to keep a women from carving my heart out and taking half?”

    Welcome to the real world. You’ll be spending the rest of your life here.

  64. haha CL

    the spanking was my first thought too…

  65. @SSM

    You might find my book ‘The Altar’ serves that need.

  66. taterearl says:

    “This is so much work… I have to do this? Just to keep a women from carving my heart out and taking half?”

    I hate to break it to you…marriage is work. It’s not for the faint of heart…which is why many people get divorced.

  67. Pip says:

    Wanna be a hero? Do what I ask.

  68. Cane Caldo says:

    SP is an idiot, but whatever. I know I probably shouldn’t get married but I can’t shake the desire for children. It’s important enough to me to be worth the risk.

    Don’t let your disagreement with SP on one matter skew your whole view of women–which is what I think you’re doing. It’s easy to caught up focusing on someone else’s error, and never see your own; especially when you’re arguing. On balance, I think you were right (and SP wrong) that women are not “stuck” with lousy men, and that there is an imbalance of power and responsibility grossly favoring women.

    However, what SP gets right is that it is imperative to turn your wife on, and that’s where I suspect you fall flat. You’ve not said one word about how hot she makes you, and–much more importantly–how hot you make her. Nor have you said a word about her self control in the face of that heat. (The peculiarities of your last relationship should bear out the overwhelming importance of both.) Marriages don’t rise and fall on the SD’s of IQ, but on the desire to exist for that other person; for the man as leader, and for the wife as helpmeet. If she wants to cook his breakfast and his bed, then she’s wife material. That is the criteria.

    Furthermore: You’re genuinely asking anonymous people on the Internet if you should marry a woman. Get the fuck outta here with that. It’s way too important to include the ramblings of random people with no connection to your life.

  69. Bob Wallace says:

    “Anybody who doesn’t prefer a few roses or carnations (OK so I’m cheap) as a personal tribute over a huge bundle of vegetable matter is an utter pleb”

    I strongly advise men NOT to buy women 12 or 18 roses. The cost is, let’s say, not cheap. Usually $80 to $120. Worse, many women are not satisfied with them. And if she complains and wants to keep the arraignment and wants a new one without returning the old one, dump her! She’s a thief and doesn’t even know it.

    The way a woman reacts to getting flowers is a big red flag. If she doesn’t appreciate a $50 arraignment with a few red roses, tell her not to let the door hit her in her ass on the way out.

    I’ve never had a complaint over a small arraignment. I’ve had many complaints over expensive arraignments with many roses. In fact, it got to the point I always turn them down. I’ll take two $50 orders with a two roses over a $120 order with 18 roses, every time.

  70. realmatt says:

    Yes she is not attracted to him but holy hell what a c*nt! Who acts like that when given a gift??

  71. TFH says:

    Dalrock wrote :

    This last line is the worst of all coming from a wife, because it is a strong signal that a divorce is around the corner.

    Yes. But I should add that only in countries where the woman can maintain the same living standard upon divorce, is this the case.

    In countries (such as the US 1960) where a woman could not simply leave the marriage without losing her living standard, a woman’s inclination to make unrealistic demands of her husband would miraculously be lower.

    When people talk about ‘a marriage on its way out’, they fail to consider that the same two people, under a different legal regime, may not end up divorcing and having their children suffer.

  72. CL says:

    Never mind blowing $50 on flowers (that’s “cheap”?) for some silly tart; tell her you don’t do flowers or pick her some poseys. No expensive flowers until until your 10th anniversary if you must waste money. Until then, Be A Skittles Man.

  73. TFH says:

    CL,

    Good! Glad to see you pointing people to that Heartiste post. You are actively enabling men to become more attractive, if they choose to believe the red pill.

  74. sunshinemary says:

    @ Michael
    I think you are kind of new, so I want to respond in an educational way to your “do I have to do this” question.

    All that is really being described here is how to maintain sexual attraction. The problem is that men have been misled about what women are really sexually attracted to, so this post is helping to clear up some of the confusion. But it sounds like perhaps you think it is unfair that a man must work on maintaining sexual attraction, so I thought I would just mention that women have a lot of things that they have to do, too, to maintain attraction. I just accept that I have to do these things because I want to have an enjoyable marriage, which (let’s just be honest) means I want my husband to want to bang me as frequently as possible. Therefore I do not complain about the gross injustice of having to wiggle into a garter belt or go to a salon and have some chick spread hot wax on my you-know-what, or go running when I’d rather sit on the couch with my buds Ben and Jerry.

    The difference is that women know what men are sexually attracted to (sexy visual stimuli), but men no longer know what women are sexually attracted to (a dominant masculine frame) because women keep lying about it, even in the bedroom, where they say, “Give me candles, poems, and an hour-long foot rub” when what they really want is for you to slap their @ss and pull their hair a little. And that doesn’t sound so bad, now does it?

    Hope that helps a little. :)

  75. TFH says:

    While boys are taught to be betas and that groveling to women is the answer, more and more Game material is available online.

    Over time, a man will have to willfully avoid Game material to not see it. The chances of simply not encountering it, will drop.

    Hence, I am imposing a deadline of Dec 31, 2015, as a date after which we should start to lose sympathy for men who get screwed by feminism, etc. by choices they made after that 12/31/2015 date.

    The androsphere is growing, and is becoming harder and harder to avoid noticing. So if a man still has no clue by 1/1/2016, that means he lacked the basic curiosity to even do some Internet research. He never even Googled for info to learn about how some men do surprisingly well with women despite not rating highly on assumed metrics of attractiveness. Hence, he fails the ‘you can lead a horse to water but can’t make him drink’ test.

    I mean, I found Game not long after the WWW came into being. Without the WWW, I might never have found it. But at this point, a man who is clueless about Game is starting to be exposed as an incurious, intellectually lazy duffer.

    As bad as feminists and ordinary women are, by the end of 2015, we will reach the point where some men will have to be told that ‘you cannot entirely blame the burglar if leave the front door open with a neon arrow pointing to it, while you go out of town’.

  76. TFH says:

    sunshinemary,

    The difference is that women know what men are sexually attracted to (sexy visual stimuli),

    If that were the case, we would not see 30-50% of young women being overweight or obese.

    A formerly attractive young woman who gains weight is sort of like a young man who gets a $10M inheritance and squanders it.

    A perfect 10 who gains 40 pounds becomes a 4 with nice hair, perfect teeth, and little else of merit.

  77. Bob Wallace says:

    “Never mind blowing $50 on flowers (that’s “cheap”?)”

    When you take in account the flowers, vases, ability to do the arraignments, delivery, gas, insurance, repairs, shop rent, utilities, plant food, tools, computer, internet (almost all orders come over the internet) and everything else, including making enough money to live on, yes, $50 is cheap. Very cheap.

    Not all orders go from men to women. Many are funeral arraignments and many are to people in the hospital. Orders run from Get Well to Anniversaries to Graduation to Sorry for Your Loss.

    However, my experience has always been men who send women 12 to 18 roses are fools.

    Men are always going to send women flowers, contrary to the delusions of Roissy.

  78. Twenty says:

    @asdf

    Re: IQ … perhaps I was reading too much into what you wrote, but I got the impression that she’s one of those people who self-identify as high-IQ, rather than one of those people who just *are* intelligent. The latter is neutral/good, but the former is a red flag IMO.

  79. CL says:

    While we’re on the topic of canned romance, if she wants Valentine’s Day, make sure she knows about Steak and a BJ Day. (Seems like a lot more fun than flowers, a teddy bear, and no sex for supplicants day). And let’s be honest, most women don’t really need the extra chocolates.

  80. BC says:

    FH: “Eish, must have been something wrong with Tom’s post.”

    No, everything in it was right. The only thing wrong was this:

    Comments which aren’t appropriate to the specific audience of this post will be removed.

    Welcome to the kinder, gentler, packaged-for-mass-market-consumption blog.
    I hope someone saved copies of Tom’s deleted posts, because they were epic.

  81. If that were the case, we would not see 30-50% of young women being overweight or obese.

    Don’t let that fool you. Women know very well what is visually stimulating to a man. The obesity is rebellion. It has worked. Fat girls are still well sexed girls. As repulsive as that may be.

    As Dalrock has expressed (and what I can personally attest to) leadership will make us crazy ladies not act like petulant children, and we’ll drop the extra pounds too.

  82. Zippy says:

    @TFH:
    I mean, I found Game not long after the WWW came into being. Without the WWW, I might never have found it. But at this point, a man who is clueless about Game is starting to be exposed as an incurious, intellectually lazy duffer.

    I think you may be wildly overestimating the free time for frivolous web surfing of the average man.

  83. sunshinemary says:

    I agree with Sarah’s Daughter. I would advise men to nip wifely slovenliness in the bud quickly. Otherwise you will end up looking at a Holly-Petraeus-wannabe for the rest of your days. Obesity is not sexy, and every woman knows it. As for single girls – reject the obese ones as potential mates. Gluttony is a sin. What other sins is she hiding that she is refusing to control?

  84. TFH says:

    Zippy,

    I think you may be wildly overestimating the free time for frivolous web surfing of the average man.

    Frivolous?!?!?!

    Seeking information of extremely high importance to your life (marriage and romance, in this case), is frivolous?

    I suppose you think Internet searching for information on health or personal finance is frivolous too. The highest priority a person has should be to seek information that can enable them to avoid severely negative situations like divorce court.

    Sorry, but your comment is one of the lamest I have seen in a long time.

  85. deti says:

    What a great post. Married men, read this post and read it again.

    Let me add on a little advice. Excuse the crass language, intended to help shock some of you into action.

    A big part of attraction is not so much doing things to make your wives attracted to you, but instead simply NOT doing things that irritate, repel, disgust and otherwise piss off your wives. In other words, a good place to start with a wife is perhaps not STARTING to do other things, but maybe to STOP doing the things you know are not working and are pissing her off.

    For example, some of you need to stop volunteering to do more housework. You are a man. You are not a maid or butler. Stop being a bitch.

    Some of you need to take better care of your bodies. You’ve got BO, your asses stink, and your breath smells like coffee, cigarettes and old socks. She is not going to suck your cock when your balls smell like ammonia. SOLUTION: Start giving a shit about how you smell. Keep yourself clean. Shit, shower and shave, gentlemen. Make sure your deodorant/anti-perspirant works. You might need to adjust your diet. Brush AND FLOSS every day. Notice: this first step in caring for yourself requires no more effort than a five minute shower and daily brushing and flossing before you expect sexytime, and just checking your, um, aromas now and then.

    Some of you are hyperreacting to her every emotion. You’re constantly asking her “Are you OK?” and offering to fix and take care of her every negative feeling. You hang on every word she says, you lean in (all the better to hear you, my dear) and you come running whenever she utters your name. You’re at her beck and call. SOLUTION: Stop trying to be a white knight. Stop trying to be her girlfriend, parent, or therapist. Stop asking her stupid questions about the state of her feelings at any given moment. Stop trying to fix or repair or “cure” feelings. You can’t. You can only stand back and let her feel them. It will pass. If she’s feeling pissed or irritated or sad or hurt or whatever the hell else she feels, and she’s not asking for your help, DON’T HELP HER. Don’t even TRY to help her.

    Some of you are trying to manipulate your wives’ emotions. You tell her “I love you” and stand there waiting with bated breath for her to verbalize the sentiment back to you. You walk away pouting when she doesn’t give you the emotional responses you want or expect. You give her copious hugs, backrubs and foot massages, hoping for a crumb of sex, a returned kiss, a fun grope or even a word of her approval. You buy gifts and flowers, hoping this will be counted in your favor when you hope it’s sexytime later. In other words, you’re being more of a woman in the marriage than she is. SOLUTION: Just stop. Stop doing all of this. Stop being a manipulative bitch. Stop saying “I love you” first. Don’t worry — she will notice you have stopped saying “I love you”, and SHE will start initiating this to YOU.

    Some of you are talking way too much about all your feelings and emotions, especially your negative ones. You’re unloading on her like a whiny bitch every other day about what an asshole your boss is or how the clients are grinding you into the ground or how you hate your job or how you’re worried about money or your mom’s a nutcase or whatever else. SOLUTION: Stop talking so much to your wives about all this shit. Once in a while, OK. But unloading on her every other day is going to scare the living hell out of her and snap her legs shut. If you need to talk to somebody, call one of your male friends or get professional help.

    Some of you are asking, pleading, begging and negotiating for sex. SOLUTION: Stop being her bitch. You will no longer ask, beg, plead or negotiate for what is rightfully yours. If there is any place where your wife needs you to be in the power position, it is in the bedroom. A good place to move toward that dominant position is to stop defaulting to occupying the submissive position.

  86. Crimson Viceroy says:

    It’s one thing to help guide men to relationships and to help deprogram them from false teachings that they have been indoctrinated with their entire lives. However, a word of caution needs to be placed here as a modicum of balance and a countermeasure against always having to be the sole load-bearing pillar for the entire family structure. This chap, I’m assuming, has had several years into his marriage and therefore if such a thing is commonplace than intervention is necessary, not just on a passive scale such as exuding higher leadership skills. It’s great when a husband or young man does his best to be attractive to a woman he is romantically involved with. However, it can slide into dangerous territory when a man has to continuously do this to remain a free agent in his own household. Excessive “gaming up” is no better than the neo-con “manning up” that we hear about from ilk like Bennett.

    A better advice would be to see how much control a woman has over her own personal emotional proclivities, because that will be a measure of just how much a man has to change himself. We cultivate skills and hone our character to do “battle” when we go to the workplace. A home should be where a man can retire from the stress of day-to-day struggles and be free to be…for lack of a better term…a fallible human being. If he has to constantly deal with s*&% tests from a woman who is always on the cusp of insurrection and confrontation, than that is not really conducive to a long healthy life. Working in aerospace engineering, I know a thing or too about leadership and the stressful burden that is precluded in such a profession. However, no man can fight a two-front battle. Dalrock, this is some great advice, I just wanted to add that there is a certain point at which a man should not pass. That point is different for each man, but I must say that if any of these things begins to conflict with his morals, and ethical paradigms in a way where such an evolution of thought would lead him to assume characteristics of a neolithic brute just so he can have some semblance of control and a modicum of appreciation from a seditious spouse. In such a case, balance would be the most important imperative to avoid destroying all the hard work a man puts into building himself up professionally and socially. I’ve seen it happen to too many good men at work not to say something here, where it may be the last place free speech is encouraged. Just as feminist indoctrination of young boys is a poisonous and destructive, going gung-ho and overboard into a realm where there is nothing but strife, indecision, confusion and outright self-contempt for what one is and wanting to change one’s self really sets someone up for a lot of pain in the future. Micheal, I completely understand where you’re coming from. In the end, everyone is responsible for their own happiness and if small tokens of appreciation or any tokens of commitment go without at least some kind of reciprocal appreciation and gratitude, then it is time to question the heart of the recipient. If the vows of marriage mean anything to the wife, then it would preclude that she would be just as vested and would encourage, hint at, or even directly communicate that which would ease tensions at home.

    Now before anyone on here tries to tear me a new one, don’t misunderstand. My intention wasn’t to white knight or passively dismiss said advice on gaming wives. It was only a comment on measure, caution, and ultimately a sympathetic reassurance to the intended audience that the entire responsibility of attraction doesn’t lay upon their wearied shoulders. Dalrock, I appreciate the graceful diplomacy you show here in genuinely trying to help married men. Whenever I have gone to other gaming sites, they have the same tone of condescension and derision for the common “omega and beta” men as feminist articles on “The End of Men”. Their message of “gaming up” has the same appalling taste of bile and bitter acrimony and sexual competition that clowns like Bennett display in their “man up” articles.

  87. ybm says:

    Listen to Crimson Viceroy.

  88. Michael says:

    @ Dalrock

    “I’m trying to build a landing pad for husbands totally unaware of the mechanics of attraction with this post. I don’t get the hostility. If you don’t like what I’m building, why not pass on commenting on this one post?”

    -Apologies. No that’s not it. A slight communications error. I want to get married and coast. I just meant I don’t want to have to constantly put in effort and work to keep my wife. I have to work at work. I just want to keep her.

    Apologies for the confusion. Hope that makes sense.

  89. Legion says:

    Learn it. Do it.

    The lives you save will be yours and your family’s.

  90. infowarrior1 says:

    @Crimson Viceroy

    A woman with a higher n count need more gaming due to the higher number of hawt men she has sexed. A virgin or a low n count woman needs less.

  91. deti says:

    Now that you have stopped doing the things that irritate, disgust, repel or otherwise piss off your wives, you now need to start taking some action. This requires some honest evaluation.

    Most of you have gotten fat and out of shape. You need to start lifting weights. This will help with losing fat, gaining muscle, and reshaping your body. You probably also need to adjust your diet, and get more and better sleep.

    Some of you might have medical issues going on. Get a head to toe medical exam if you haven’t had one, blood work, T levels, and whatever else the doc recommends.

    Some of you might have mental health issues going on. If you need to talk to someone, do it. If you need professional help, get it. If you need a vacation or some time off, take it. If you need treatment, get the treatment. If you are depressed, get help.

    Some of you have just stopped doing the thing or things that made you attractive in the first place. You used to be good at something. Maybe you need to rediscover it, and polish that skill up again. Maybe you need to go back to that hobby you didn’t have time for after your firstborn came or after your second promotion at work. Maybe you should get back into playing guitar or playing pickup basketball games. Get out your mothballed rifles and shotguns, and get good at shooting again. Maybe you should get back some of that edge you had when you were just starting out and before you settled into comfortable wedded bliss.

    Some of you ditched your male friends and you don’t do anything without your wife. You need to have something in your life just for you that your wife isn’t a part of. Maybe it’s rifle target practice or the annual golf weekend with your college friends. You can take up fishing, and get away by yourself or a few other men. You need to do this to (1) have something just for you; and (2) be in the company of men.

    Most of you do not stand up for yourselves to your wives. You fear your wives’ reactions. You know the implicit threat any wife asserts is “We’re doing it MY WAY, or I won’t have sex with you!” You need to start standing up for yourself. You MUST expect your wife’s respect, and demand that she give it to you. Will she withhold sex? Maybe, for a while. If she does, just call her out on it: “I know you’re withholding sex, and it’s unacceptable. it needs to stop.”

    All women, including wives, are sometimes bitches. When your wife acts like a bitch, call her out on it. I recommend an indirect approach at first: “[Wife's name], I’m not going to put up with this.” A more direct approach later can help: “[Wife's name], you’re really being a bitch right now. You need to stop it.” If she continues with the bitchiness, a simple reminder that you know what is going on can help: “You just let me know when you’re ready to play nice, and I’ll free up the bank account.” If she wants to manipulate you with physical affection while still acting bitchy, rebuff it. You must let her know that bitchy behavior will not be rewarded.

    With sex, you need to initiate more often. As you progress, you should tell her what to do, how to do it, and what you want. You should be the dominant partner.

  92. I want to get married and coast. I just meant I don’t want to have to constantly put in effort and work to keep my wife. I have to work at work. I just want to keep her.

    Then don’t get married. A wife isn’t a pet rock; even a good one will require effort on your part. Which is only fair, because being a good wife will require effort on her part too.

    If you just want a woman around for some reason, but don’t want to have to provide for her emotional needs, hire a maid or a prostitute, whichever fits your bill.

  93. @Michael- incorporate these things into your very being, and implement them well with your woman, and it will seem like coasting because this stuff comes naturally. You are already wired for it. Immerse in it, and its super-easy.

    It will be the closest thing you could ever hope for in terms of “coasting” because like a skilled parent, once they set the terms the kids prosper and thrive with very little discipline and correction needed. Help a girl get things straight, and she will actually help you perpetuate the frame you set.

    Refuse to to your job as leader and there will be no coasting. Only chaos. The solutions offered in this blog offer your the closest version of ‘coasting’ you could ever hope for.

  94. CL says:

    I think Michael might have left a “don’t” out of his comment – i.e. “I don’t want to get married and coast.” That makes more sense in light of what follows. It might appear like a lot more work than it is when it’s all written out this way, which is why he is reacting the way he is.

    Obviously it’s not just coasting but it shouldn’t be a constant slog either. What you read about generally are the parts that take some work and how to do that work, not the “we had a lovely stroll in the park today” parts (unless you read the mommy blogs where they each try to outdo each other in describing an idyllic life). The former attempts to give a road map while the latter is useless and self-serving, not to mention a fantasy.

  95. Peter says:

    Great post, Dalrock. I can see the mistakes I’ve made. However, if I had my life again, I wouldn’t get married. There just isn’t sufficient return on the investment which you’re suggesting.

  96. Zippy says:

    @TFH:
    Seeking information of extremely high importance to your life (marriage and romance, in this case), is frivolous?

    From the perspective of most men I know, you are assuming the conclusion (that surfing the web in a way in which you will discover randomly important stuff you are unaware even exists is not frivolous). Discovering that a bunch of PUA-worshiping nerdy complainers who can’t get a date (this is how most busy men will see the manosphere; it isn’t intended to be a “fair” characterization) exist at all is not high on the priority list, let alone taking advice from them if you accidentally run across them. There is too much to do in life.

    Said still differently, you are vastly overestimating the “reach” of the “manosphere”. I don’t know a single man in “real life” besides myself who has even heard of it, unless I told them about it. Most of the working men I know – the sort who actually keep civilization going – have very little time for frivolities; and yes, from their perspective spending time discovering stuff on the web – as opposed to very occasionally finding the solutions to specific problems or what have you – is frivolity. Missing out on the profundities of Roissy is a first world problem among first world problems.

    Hell, I probably stumbled into Roissy before most people who post here. I thought he was rather pathetic then, and I still do. What Dalrock is bringing to light is important, but right now the “manosphere” seems to reach the relativily few people it does reach on a “just too late” schedule. There are reasons for that, whether folks want to hear them or not.

  97. sunshinemary says:

    I just meant I don’t want to have to constantly put in effort and work to keep my wife.

    And I want to sit around on the couch eating high-calorie snack foods, wearing sweatpants and an overgrown muff. However, I know there are plenty of cute little nurses at my husband’s place of employment who are ready to drop to their knees at his command. So, even though it’s not right for a woman to frivorce her husband just because he’s let himself go any more than it was right for David Patraeus to cheat on his wife because she’d let herself go, nevertheless, a wise man or woman attempts to head off disaster by remaining attractive to their spouse.

  98. freebird says:

    “I’m trying to build a landing pad for husbands totally unaware of the mechanics of attraction with this post. I don’t get the hostility. If you don’t like what I’m building, why not pass on commenting on this one post?”

    Ah yes, I had failed to notice the full implications of that thought.
    For awhile there I had thought it was a free-for-all.
    Apologies.
    I do get a bit overzealous at times.
    It’s funny when a guy does that,it’s called “tripping over your dick” but there is no equivalent when women do it.
    Perhaps there ought to be a new phrase created for this specific application.

  99. judgybitch says:

    @ SunshineMary

    And I want to sit around on the couch eating high-calorie snack foods, wearing sweatpants and an overgrown muff. However, I know there are plenty of cute little nurses at my husband’s place of employment who are ready to drop to their knees at his command.

    Ain’t that the truth? Taking care of yourself is the best insurance against infidelity. He won’t go out for hamburger if he’s got steak at home.

  100. I have to concur with Zip. In fact I cannot imagine anyone not realizing that, as we have all no doubt experienced the glazing over of the man’s eyes as we begin to introduce even the most benign manosphere concepts conversationally. Imagine how much less likely that man is to go in search of crucial advice on relationship when he cannot wrap his mind around the idea that women bring divorce.
    Yes…..most men are too busy….until they aren’t.

  101. TMG says:

    When I used to look upon marriage as a desirable goal, I never saw it as a relationship where a man “cared for” a woman. I saw it as a relationship where men and women, being different in complimentary ways, could stand back to back and make their way together in the wicked world.

    In many ways, this served me well when I was dating, because I actually had reasonable standards for the behavior of my girlfriends. Even after becoming tuned into the manosphere, my illusion of a complimentary, basically equitable, relationship was very difficult to shake. But after disappointment after disappointment, I realized that the manospere was correct in that the majority (not all) of women date and marry with the paradigm of being “cared for” fully worked out in their heads.

    Lately, I’ve added another realization to that, which is that many women only feel required to reciprocate being “cared for” if the male doing the caring is also attractive to her. Regardless of past history, regardless of how much sacrifice the male has made for her, “be attractive and take care of me” is the mandate. I think this is partially rooted in biology, but it is seriously skewed by the indoctrination of female supremacists.

    I, personally, have little interest in trying to build and maintain a marriage with someone who’s love is conditional on her level of arousal + her opinion on how well I “care for her.” To men who are already married, I’m not as good at giving advice as other men here, but I wish you all the best of luck.

  102. Dalrock says:

    @Zippy

    Hell, I probably stumbled into Roissy before most people who post here. I thought he was rather pathetic then, and I still do. What Dalrock is bringing to light is important, but right now the “manosphere” seems to reach the relativily few people it does reach on a “just too late” schedule. There are reasons for that, whether folks want to hear them or not.

    It certainly is true that our corner of the blogosphere represents a very small portion of those on the worldwide web. However, the issue is much more than just exposure. Our culture is steeped in feminism, and the reality we are discussing (the mechanics of attraction) goes against the dominant belief of our age (feminism). You mention Roissy, but as I pointed out in the OP you don’t need Roissy to get your marriage in order. While very few people have ever even heard of the “manosphere”, countless millions of Christians have spent a lifetime carefully avoiding the parts of the Bible which offend feminism.

    This resistance to offending the dominant philosophy of our age is the far bigger challenge when we are talking communicating with men and women say 30 and over. For younger men at least, the reality is something large numbers will grow up knowing. Feminism spawned the sexual revolution, and created an age where the vast majority of young women delay marriage for a decade or more after coming of age. The flower of women’s youth is now dedicated to the men who can generate the most “tingles”. In this environment the answer to the question of why young women are focused on the attention of a small number of men (and how to possibly join those men) is a secret the KGB couldn’t have kept. As a result, the terms “game” and “alpha” are now fairly common in movies aimed at this demographic. This generational shift is the real threat to feminism. What I’m trying to do with this post is help those few husbands who are willing to learn and help their marriages in the meantime. It won’t spark a movement, but it might help a few extra kids grow up with their father in the home.

  103. Zippy says:

    @Dalrock:
    What I’m trying to do with this post is help those few husbands who are willing to learn and help their marriages in the meantime. It won’t spark a movement, but it might help a few extra kids grow up with their father in the home.

    And that is valuable, in the trenches work. If one man saves his marriage because he stumbles on this post, it is worth it. I continue to encourage people who (like myself) don’t think much of the Roissy/PUA crowd to take seriously what you are doing here.

    My objection was to TFH’s statement here: “I mean, I found Game not long after the WWW came into being. Without the WWW, I might never have found it. But at this point, a man who is clueless about Game is starting to be exposed as an incurious, intellectually lazy duffer.”

    I call bullshit on that. The kind of men who are likely to stumble upon – and take seriously – the manosphere on the Web are semi-retired independent folks like me, the unemployed, and men who have already been burned and know they have been burned so they are looking everywhere for answers. The men who keep the wheels of civilization turning day-to-day frankly don’t have time for this crap. Until, as empathologism points out, they do, because they have joined the ranks of the damned.

  104. taterearl says:

    Finding out about the manosphere before getting married instead finding it when a marriage is going down in flames worth its weight in gold.

    Now finding the unicorn is the hard part.

  105. an observer says:

    Some men find applying red pill easy? Luck to you. I find it damn difficult. It does not come naturally.

    If its so hard, would i throw it away? No. As unpleasant as this awakening has been, i dont want to go back.

  106. Ybm says:

    Zippy says:
    December 2, 2012 at 12:25 pm

    Game, pua, etc. Are very niche things and I agree with you that the majority of men will never see or hear of a nobody like roissy. No would theybreally care what he thinks is an ‘alpha male’.

    However, the discourse on marriage within the ‘manosphere’ is very much reflective of the mainstream. Among the boastful pack mule future divorced men ‘keeping civilization running’ they simply don’t have anything to offer anymore than the money their labor creates. Their personalities would not fit standing up for themselves or refusing to supplicate, so it is rational that they would find ‘angry divorced men’ less trustworthy than their own rationalization that she really truly loves him, and not his labors. I worked with enough hapless accountants who know the only reason their wife is with him is that she was all fucked out and wanted a provider for herself and some kids, and they are repulsed by it.

    Of course this avoids everyone else that are simply foregoing marriage and divorce theft to begin with, which is quantifiable, growing, and very much mainstream. The dwindling cohort of pack mule men is more than welcome to continue signing up to livelong slavery for women and a state that wants nothing except to eat, sleep, work, and pay taxes.

  107. Höllenhund says:

    The ideas one sees in the Manosphere are actually much more widespread among average men than most women’d think. They aren’t organized into a coherent ideology, but they’re still there. Women don’t see this, because men don’t honestly talk to women about their opinions on these issues.

  108. FuriousFerret says:

    Dalrock is right on the youth.

    They all know of ‘Game’ yet the nerds will dismiss it. They dismiss it because they want to hold on to a fantasy. These guys prefer to hate rather than compete with the scary ‘bro’ types that that dominate them in social interactions. Also there is a reason that they are nerds. They don’t have the necessary social IQ to begin with and need to work at this. It doesn’t come naturally to them.

    ‘Game’ is known expect it’s not really understood by the majority. The naturals simply just are in terms of having high testorone and acting in a dominant manner. It’s not Game to them. it’s simply being. The nerds buy into the mainstream brain washing and some will wake up when they realize the massive lie that they are being shown. Some will reject because they don’t want the pain of realizing of the changes they will have to make in terms of work and personality. Some will man up and learn to behave in the way that is in accordance with nature expect has been beat out of them by the Feminist Big Sister.

    YBM has already stated that he is a natural and was a bully growing up. These types of people are the most likely to dismiss learning seduction pyschology because they see these weak losers and can’t imagine them actually competing with them in the SMP.

  109. Zippy, I owe you. If you misspelled my username, good on you because I liked your version better than mine and I took it….changed it.
    That’s exactly my point, about the damned. A fairly new friend of mine, man in his mid/late 30’s, Marine, war vet, just was jettisoned from his house, all his guns were taken away….he had raised his voice. He was living on a friends couch.
    I started telling him about things and after a few days and some legal proceedings he called me saying, “DAMN man, I HAD NO IDEA!”

  110. 8oxer says:

    The ideas one sees in the Manosphere are actually much more widespread among average men than most women’d think.

    Agreed, but this is definitely generation specific. To men over the age of about 45-50, game is largely seen as an absolute abomination, men as uncontrollable libertines, and women as snowflaky pure essences of an all enlightening divinity.

    Now, talk to your average teenage boy, and odds are he is far more realistic than I or many others who read this blog. He knows women are intrinsically immoral because his mother taught him by example, and he considers women to be something between drifting garbage and free-floating machinery to satiate his fleeting carnal needs. Young men often see women as less than human.

    There doesn’t seem to be any golden mean to this dialectic.

    The generational chasm is evident in females as well. Look at the 40-somethings on the average dating site (POF, etc) and you’ll find bitter old hags who are full of themselves, listing endless qualities that they want, indicating that they “won’t settle for less” than they think they deserve (laughs).

    Contrast this with teens and early 20s girls.

    I saw one profile with a fairly attractive younger woman in a provocative pose, and the text read “I wanna be a ho and I act like one”. While it wasn’t overt, in the subtext the message was “will f* for cash”.

  111. Zippy says:

    @empathologicalism/empathologism:
    Sorry about the typo, my bad. :)

  112. ybm says:

    FuriousFerret says:
    December 2, 2012 at 2:03 pm

    I think you are overstating my ‘anti-game’ as MackPUA calls it. I disagree with the methods, not the result.

    The Roissysphere is unacceptably brutal in its treatment of good traits like patience, temperance, and humility. It throws the baby out with the bathwater in its quest to pump up a false-enlightenment of Ira, Invidia, and Avarita.

  113. @empathologicalism/empathologism:
    Sorry about the typo, my bad. :)
    —————————————————
    I was serious, I like the play on neologism, so I switched. Your mistake is my gain.

  114. asdf says:

    Twenty,

    Agreed. She is actually intelligent. Has been getting paid to go to school since undergrad and is about the finish a science PhD. You would see the intelligence just talking to her. From what she’s told of the family I think there are good genetics all around.

    The problem is that her current academia environment is encouraging her to become a stereotypical liberal with a high opinion of her intelligence. She “gets” that this is happening and its wrong, but we all become like our environment over time even when we see it happening.

    Still, I think the main problem goes back to probably being a lot smarter then the authority figures in her young life and they were all traditional, so she has a negative experience with traditionalism. Of course I grew up in the opposite environment so I see the warts of modernism.

    “and that’s where I suspect you fall flat.”

    Then you don’t know me.

    “You’ve not said one word about how hot she makes you, and–much more importantly–how hot you make her”

    Her hotness for me is clear. She could make me hot if she was more feminine. She is holding herself back. Right now I think she has a lot of substance of character but has this feminist ideology crap in the way. I think it would be easier to deprogram the feminism then to try to build up substance in a girl that doesn’t have it.

  115. Badger says:

    “However, if I had my life again, I wouldn’t get married. There just isn’t sufficient return on the investment which you’re suggesting.”

    I repeat, this is what I keep hearing, in deafening chorus, from married men I talk to. I haven’t ruled out marriage by any means, and I don’t mean to bag on Dalrock or Athol or any other well-married men, but it honestly does cause me to question that path.

  116. Looking Glass says:

    As a technical point, every under 18 male gamer type will be thoroughly and completely understanding of Alpha/Beta (in the Roissy style) within 2 years. The penetration of the terminology and the practical utility has been extremely fast in the last year. You see it pop up all the time now. This change is coming and it’s going to take a few more years to filter through.

    But things will be changing.

  117. asdf says:

    “The men who keep the wheels of civilization turning day-to-day frankly don’t have time for this crap.”

    Agreed. I came to game after my first D/S relationship because I wanted to understand what just happened. And if I wasn’t a single dude with free time I probably never would have.

  118. asdf says:

    “Seeking information of extremely high importance to your life (marriage and romance, in this case), is frivolous?”

    I ask a lot of people for their opinions. Then I way the evidence and make up my mind.

    Most people in this thread used my question to go off on their pet peeves. However, Cail Corishev gave me some good advice. I was already thinking something along these lines, but its always good to hear it put succinctly.

  119. Joshua says:

    No ASDF, most people here can see your headed down divorce rape highway to hell. If your not willing to walk away right now, completely no contact, then your volunteering for beta hood. We know this cant be helped, especially since you already know better. Some people cant shrug off their beta slave chains.

  120. Badger says:

    “The Roissysphere is unacceptably brutal in its treatment of good traits like patience, temperance, and humility. ”

    I have said this at HUS and I say it again here. Roissy is not de novo philosophy, he/it is a response to the sexual and social marketplace that has developed in accordance with women’s desires and proclivities over the past two generations. So to whatever degree women reject “patience, temperance and humility,” someone like Roissy will tell men to avoid those things lest they become collateral damage in the kill zone. In response, there’s a constant appeal to virtue, to “do you want to be that kind of man?” and the answer from more and more men is, I don’t really care, or put more distinctly, if women don’t care about good men, why should I be one? Just to flatter some ethereal sense of “ethics” I learned from a middle school novel about a kid who stole the old man neighbor’s yoyo but returned it because it was “the right thing to do?”

  121. Badger says:

    “They dismiss it because they want to hold on to a fantasy. These guys prefer to hate rather than compete with the scary ‘bro’ types that that dominate them in social interactions.”

    Yes, this was me for a while – I saw game skills as the same as being a douchebag because those guys had game skills. Once I got fed up and tried it, I found it didn’t make me a douchebag to be good with women. I could apply the lessons in a way that made me a better, more attractive me, rather than having to become an alcoholic frat guy (another strawman of the haters debunked).

    To paraphrase Ivan Boevsky, you can have game and still feel good about yourself.

    However, this all just highlights that most guys will never rise above their meager lot of lame game – when they spend all their time trying to reject and debunk game, they are just digging themselves further into the hole. At some point, they aren’t worth campaigning.

  122. Looking Glass says:

    One point on the discussion with asdf, if she’s going to complete her PhD soon, she’s far less likely to divorce as a matter of course. But that doesn’t mean the “marriage” part will necessarily be better.

    Further, a science PhD puts her at least around 27. The Wall is fast approaching, as well. It’s useful tactical aspects.

  123. Some men find applying red pill easy? Luck to you. I find it damn difficult. It does not come naturally.

    To me, it’s like changing your diet: easy to do in the short term, but hard to really integrate into your life so it becomes a permanent change that you don’t have to think about constantly. It’s one thing to go out one night and get just drunk enough to achieve the right level of cocky & funny that has hot girls pushing each other off your lap. It’s quite another to maintain that day after day, especially into a relationship, especially with most of the people and influences around you telling you to do the opposite.

  124. deti says:

    “you don’t need Roissy to get your marriage in order. While very few people have ever even heard of the “manosphere”, countless millions of Christians have spent a lifetime carefully avoiding the parts of the Bible which offend feminism.”

    For the Christians out there thinking they have to be “nice” to get or keep a girl, just remember:

    Jesus had Game.

    He knew the truth.

    He knew he occupied a position above his disciples and those around Him. He had authority and power, and He knew it. He knew how and when and where to use His power and assert His authority.

    He did not care what people thought of Him. He simply spoke the truth and did what He knew to be right, and the consequences were what they were.

    He told people the unvarnished truth about themselves.

    He corrected, rebuked and disciplined the people around Him. When people around him were wrong or their conduct was inappropriate, He called them out on it directly and unreservedly.

    He skillfully and effortlessly demolished the arguments others put to Him and showed them to be full of shit.

    He was an oak tree in the midst of political corruption, spiritual legalism, whiny pussyboys, and unrepentant sluts. He was not swayed from His mission or his beliefs by political intrigue, the intellectualism of Talmud scholars, his disciples’ complaining and bewilderment, or the other stupid people around them. He pulled the very best out of His disciples.

    He directly confronted falsehoods and destructive conduct. If someone misbehaved in His house, He kicked them out.

    He had and has clear expectations for those who want to be part of His family. His patience for those who accept Him and follow His directions and the path He lays out for them is infinite, His manner with them is accepting and gentle and loving. He removes from His presence those who refuse Him, deny Him, or rebel against Him.

  125. deti says:

    Jesus with the woman at the well: “You don’t have a husband; you have had five husbands, and the man you are with now is not your husband.”

    Modern day translation: “You’re a slut. I know it, you know it, and everyone you know also knows it.”
    _________________________________
    Jesus with the adulteress about to be stoned: “I don’t condemn you. Now go, and sin no more.”

    Modern day translation: “You’re a slut and an adulteress. I should have said nothing and let them stone you to death, but that won’t solve anything, really. Look, you don’t have to continue to be a slut. You need to change your life, and you need to start by not sleeping around anymore.”
    _______________________________
    Jesus with Mary and Martha: Mary and Martha are sisters. They are entertaining Jesus and His disciples for dinner. Martha is running around doing all the prep. Mary is sitting at Jesus’ feet, listening to HIm. Martha gets exasperated and says “Lord, don’t you care that my sister has left me to do the work by myself? Tell her to help me!” Jesus replies: “Martha, Martha, you are worried and upset about many things, but few things are needed—or indeed only one. Mary has chosen what is better, and it will not be taken away from her.”

    Modern day translation: “Yeah, Martha, you’re being kind of a bitch right now. You’re worrying about things that aren’t important and you’re trying to put it all on Me. Mary has it right. We’ll do that other stuff later. Come sit down and let’s talk for a while.”

  126. MPK says:

    The article gives valid advice. I’ve found that as the man, and the leader of my family, I have to be the adult when no one else can or will. A lot of times my wife is a grown up. But there are times when she isn’t. I need to be the one who is solid and who she can count on to be the leader, to not lose my head under stress. This doesn’t sound good, but unfortunately I’ve found as the husband you have to be the same way to lead your wife that you need to be to lead your children. Emotional responses to their tantrums don’t get rewarded with rational behavior, only more emotions. Your wife and family will reflect your behavior.

  127. Pingback: Romance 101: How to stop frustrating your wife/girlfriend | Paul M. Jones

  128. Infernal Optimist says:

    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but there exists a fairly good sized percentage of women for whom THERE IS NO SOLUTION. They have been steeped in feminism so thoroughly for so long that:

    If you try hard game on them, results are unpredictable. She may respond or she may be angry (at you? at herself?) that you are treating her like a “doormat.”

    If you try to persuade her with softer game, she will most likely not respond.

    If you try to be romantic, she will not respect you.

    Seriously, I wish it were as easy as just gaming your wife. I’m here to tell you it may or may not work, depending on your wife. Athol Kay says his wife is naturally submissive and I here the sound of thousands of guys, muttering under their breaths, “Lucky bastard.” For the rest of us, it’s hit or miss.

    I wouldn’t advise any man to get married in this culture.

    [D: No need to rush headlong into defeatism. This post is intended to help men doing it the wrong way try instead doing it the right way. Why do you and so many others fear the idea of husbands learning how to interact with their wives? You don't want to marry. I hear that. On every post. Over and over again. This is exactly the kind of defeatist BS I had in mind with the warning at the top. I'll keep this comment as one example of the kind of whining I'll continue to delete, to save others the trouble. Piss and moan on another post, but not this one.]

  129. MaMu1977 says:

    Wrong Flowers Guy should have gone to his wife’s job the next day, grabbed the bouquet of flowers from her desk, then given a flower to each woman in the room. That night, when she came home (probably) steaming mad, he should have told her that even a bad present could go to good use. Then, the next day, show up at her job with the flowers that she liked, making sure to wink or smile at the prettiest women in the room. Once he reschedule her desk, he could just give her a kiss on the cheek, say something goin, then go home. The rest of the women at her job will get her Hamster spinning at light speed for him.

  130. deti says:

    Infernal:

    Agree with your post. There are some situations in which game won’t work for whatever reason. Usually they are:

    1. She was never attracted to him in the first place
    2. Her attraction to him has been gone for so long, or he has become so unattractive, that no amount of expertly applied game will work
    3. She just simply will not submit
    4. She has cheated on him and has already “left” the marriage emotionally
    5. Her sex rank is considerably higher than his

    That’s why the man has to be ready for it not to work. So he has to be ready to cut his losses and end the marriage, or for her to end it. Game isn’t a panacea. It will not create something out of nothing. It cannot bring something back from the dead, but it can be the AED that brings the heart back to life after shocking it with a few joules.

  131. Infernal Optimist says:

    Dalrock,

    WTFlippin Heck? Defeatist? How about realistic? And I AM MARRIED. I have no fear of anyone learning how to game their wives. But it’s NOT THE CURE-ALL you’re saying it is. And I just wanted to point that out.

    [D: Defeatist. Whiny. Bitchy. Take your pick. This is an introductory page, and you crap all over it talking about how it won't work. Piss off.]

  132. Infernal Optimist says:

    Susan – I mean Dalrock,

    OK. I won’t be stopping be here again. At least Deti thought I had something to say.

    [D: Problem solved then.]

  133. Entropy is My God says:

    Game is a tool. It will work till it won’t. Using an appropriate tool on an appropirate job is a sign of wisdom. A power drill and deck screws are great for building a deck. When I need to weld the drill is useless. Not only is it not strong enought to drill through metal but the screws are also too weak.

    Although poor this is a decent metaphor for game. If your wife is deck ready material, use the power drill and wood screws of game on her. Enjoy results. If your wife is the sheet metal of feminism, you are using the wrong tool.

    Game is a tool and nothing more, it is not a life philosphy and should not be treated as one. No one says that their Porter Cable drill is a life philosophy.

  134. MPK says:

    Just watched “Bonanza The Spanking”. There was a John Wayne movie where he had to do that to his wife, in public. It is not recommended to do the spanking physically, as shown in the old westerns. Instead it needs to be done mentally. A man needs to be smarter than his wife or girl friend, including in his ability to argue his case. He cannot stoop to the same 3rd grade level nonsense that she will foist on him. He must be the adult. This means controlling his emotions first and foremost, then responding in a cool, calm, collected, and respectful way to her barrage of idiotic and probably hurtful comments. I’ve heard it said, “Don’t mud wrestle with pigs; you just get all muddy and the pig loves it.” This applies to leading your family, including your wife, and sometimes even your mother after dad is gone. Females learn early on how to manipulate men, beginning with their fathers and brothers, using psychology, and reasonable sounding lies that most people just accept as fact. Men have to learn to defeat that manipulation.

  135. UnicornHunter says:

    @SS
    “@Michael- incorporate these things into your very being, and implement them well with your woman, and it will seem like coasting because this stuff comes naturally. You are already wired for it. Immerse in it, and its super-easy.

    It will be the closest thing you could ever hope for in terms of “coasting” because like a skilled parent, once they set the terms the kids prosper and thrive with very little discipline and correction needed. Help a girl get things straight, and she will actually help you perpetuate the frame you set.

    Refuse to to your job as leader and there will be no coasting. Only chaos. The solutions offered in this blog offer your the closest version of ‘coasting’ you could ever hope for.”

    BINGO

    Well, I suppose I can’t say that completely authoritatively, but what I have found is that growing the hell up and becoming a man has stood me in excellent stead as father to my sixteen year old daughter. I’m starting to see how, could I have but behaved this way with her mother, we would likely still be married, and far happier than we ever were.

  136. yfr says:

    >They all know of ‘Game’ yet the nerds will dismiss it. They dismiss it because they want to hold on to a fantasy. These guys prefer to hate rather than compete with the scary ‘bro’ types that that dominate them in social interactions.

    Two of the most interesting “nerds” I ever met are counter-examples:
    1 -One was a skilled computer technician who worked tech support. He was also a motorcycle thug. He was active in the “pump and dump” lifestyle, but he had to take pains to tone down his obvious capacity for violence to avoid scaring off women.

    2 – The second was working toward a Ph.D. in mathematics. He was an active member of the Hells Angels. He was incredibly physically fit but usually concealed this fact with layered clothing.

    And yet – when these guys wanted to look respectable, they looked absolutely harmless. They appeared to be wimpy dorks when it was to their advantage.

    Likewise, I have met many “bros” who can talk, smoke, and drink beer, but have never thrown an actual punch. I suspect the real nature of humans is a lot more complicated than a “nerd”/”bro” dichotomy.

  137. Fahim says:

    Wow….if i knew this 2 weeks ago i would still have a fiancee….not just an ex-fiancee

    [D: Welcome Fahim. I'm sorry to hear about your fiancée, but if she needed a lot of "game" to keep around you may have dodged a bullet. You may be interested in my post on interviewing a prospective wife.]

  138. Crimson Viceroy says:

    Michael,

    My thoughts exactly. And there comes a time, seriously, when age is a significant factor. My father is pre-diabetic and overweight. Matter of fact, I look at the men in network of friends and family and ALL of them are overweight. Not a single one of them has even a gym membership. However, their wives are still with them for over 40+ years. Hell, my mom encourages him to go to the gym and he has started to, but IT IS STRICTLY FOR HIS HEALTH. Now, he is starting to go away from needing insulin and his blood pressure is normal and my mom has never been prouder. Is he still rotund, you better believe it – hell, I sometimes call him Santa, though my mom hates when I do that. Anytime I get into an argument with him and blow up at him, she will come to me after the argument and ask me to apologize to my father because he should be respected as head of the household. In all my years, my dad has owned his own business and has worked there for 12 hours a day 365 days a year…that’s right no family vacations or any of that sort. My mom ran the business alongside him and was technically the president of the company, not that it really meant great things since it was a gas station but still. So, it goes without saying that he really didn’t have to follow any of the said advice from “keeping my mom from leaving”. The reason why, as stated above, she was a virgin when she married my father. So I just suggest that you get a NO-partner count woman. Hard, yeah, but you know what, it’s better for it to be a hard process now in the search, than dealing with a total slut who’s been too used to getting banged by criminals (yes, the qualities and inhibitions these fellas exhibit are narcissistic and anti-social to the point of being clinically characterized as criminal).

    As for the aforementioned advice on gaining too much weight, at a certain point, age becomes a very restrictive factor in weight gain. Someone can check me on this, but after the age of 35-40, our metabolic rates start to plummet and as a result, diets have to be adjusted but some weight gain is INEVITABLE. You can manage and control it, but it should be done with the utmost priority of promoting good health. Therefore, it should be done as a personal incentive for a healthier future, not cause you have something to prove to a cold and frigid wife. Frankly, always responding by personal shifts in one’s body and mentality to suit the subconscious hamstersbation of a fringe wife is only going to lead her to believe that such behavior will always be rewarded, whether it is thru white-knighted platitudes or upping the old alpha game to increase attraction. Rewarding such childish and petulant behavior will only lead to delaying the inevitable marital collapse due to her own self-induced insecurities. Being a leader is one thing, but NEVER sign on to be her personal God. You walk a dangerous line when you start to adapt an entirely new lifestyle to suit the subconscious inhibitions of another. Because at that point, one is led to ask the question did this woman marry me for me, or the possibility of who I might become as a result of deficiencies that she wanted me to omit to suit her twisted paradigms. I do completely agree with Deti’s last bit of advice on nipping insurrection in the bud. It’s just like proper behavioral programming, if you’re stuck with a cold dead fish in bed, then don’t respond by taking on the sole responsibility of warming things up. At some point it has to be mutual and every step you take should be met with an equal step in synch, else you volunteered to shoulder the entire burden of the marriage and the mechanics of attraction upon your shoulders, which is a loser’s gambit at that point. She will then subconsciously recognize her “bitchy” non-compliant moments will reward her with the alpha she secretly desires, she will keep using that tactic over and over again…not unlike the same response you would get white-knighting for her.

    It takes a lot of alpha game and personal savvy to make it in the professional world, ESPECIALLY in this economy. So if a man is able to maintain a household and provide and keep to his own vows, than he’s doing just fine. Being a “supplicating wimp” or “nerd” in many professions will not lead to a fruitful future. It takes a lot of serious masculine frame to get your name out there and to fight to put food on your table. In this economy, most blokes have to pull 12-hour shifts and therefore the whole 9-5 paradigm no longer exists as companies are increasingly loading up their current staff with more work since they don’t want to hire more people either because of fears of loss of capital or because Obamacare would end up penalizing them with having staffing over 50 people. Add in the fact that in many circumstances, the man is still a primary breadwinner, and still does a majority of the external household chores as well as raise his children if he has any, and it seems to me like all of this is just additional burdens on his depleting resources of time and money. Despite the latest time management guru’s, we still only have 24 hours in a day. Squeezing in an hour workout 3-4 days a week is a real challenge for the overworked average Joe right now, and even that paltry amount is not enough to gain the type of muscle tone and mass needed to get your woman all nice and moist, exceptions pending of course. At what point does a fella just relax and live his life to full measure? At what point does he accept age with grace and slow things down a bit? At what point does his seditious “spank-me” child-woman learn to grow the f*&! up and stop expecting some elevated alpha to sweep her off her feet? Despite popular beliefs, people CHOOSE to be led by their animalistic attraction queues. It is an ACTIVE choice, regardless of what is said. Nothing wrong with it, but it needs to be understood that such a freedom of choice does not guarantee freedom from consequences. Men understand this pretty well, woman have yet to learn it after 50 years.

    Hell, I’ve even heard on forums where women will say that if a guy is really toning up and working out, that he is getting ready to leave you for a hotter, younger woman. So, now, you run the risk of them either questioning all of your motives, which drives them to be even colder, or drives them to strike the hammer first and hand you divorce papers. There is no Jedi mind-tricking someone who’s got the playing deck stacked in their favor. How in the world a man can live in peace knowing that is beyond my skills of comprehension. It was not my intent to be a “anti-game troll” or “closet white-knight” or “nerdy beta”, though I’m sure the invective will be piled upon me by die-hard gamers. I was merely playing devil’s advocate so that the audience would get the benefit of a robust exchange of diverse and contradicting dialogue so that they could see both sides of the argument and then make up their own minds.

    Regards,

    Crimson Viceroy

  139. Mikediver says:

    Fahim,

    If your fiancee was an American woman count yourself lucky. You just dodged a bullet.

  140. MPK says:

    I’m still learning “game”. I grew up hanging around with my dad a lot in his business. I saw him from both sides. As a loving father and husband, and then also as a bully around the house when he didn’t get his way. Then I went to school and ended up being one of the smart kids who made good grades. So my clique at school consisted of the nerds, girls and boys, who were great students but couldn’t hang with the good-looking popular kids. Feminism ruled. So I wasted my youth. I had some great female “friends” who wished I would ask them out but who I, quite frankly, saw no future with. I am glad I didn’t as they are all flaming liberals now, even worse than they were back in the ’70’s, only now they are genuinely ugly. I went to a world-class university down in Houston and graduated and went into the engineering business. There were a number of really smart, attractive, and conservative women at that school. I sure wish I had gotten with one of them. I ended up marrying a Baptist girl I met at work, who had no degree or any other professional credentials. I guess I settled. So now after 23 years of marriage I am waking up to an obese woman who won’t let me see her without a couple of layers of clothes on. I suppose she has good reason as she is probably scared to death that I would be repulsed, which I probably would. She has no other way of supporting herself other than to claim that I couldn’t get along if she didn’t do my laundry and make my supper. She claims to be interested in sex but constrains it to just a few of the traditional ways of expressing it. If I insist on other forms she tolerates it not very convincingly. I am not interested in a woman who “tolerates” sex with me. She needs to crave it. So I am thinking about losing interest in her. It won’t be difficult as I am already half-way there. I’ll be nice and supportive in every other way but I intend for her to eventually get the message (as if I haven’t already discussed it with her) that I am as serious as a heart attack about her physical condition as well as her attitude about the sex part of our marriage. I wanted a woman who would be modest in public and a tiger in the bedroom. What I got was a woman who is modest in public and ashamed in the bedroom, and complacent about it.

  141. Fahim says:

    Yeah she was an american woman….she says she still loves me and all and misses me….she cheated on me….went and had sex with a guy she barely knew in his car….it hurts horribly…she said the she loves me part spark is gone spiel then i found out she had cheated on me….but i dont understand why….i already had done the stuff this says to do to make her attracted to u again….

  142. deti says:

    Fahim:

    Out of curiosity, how did you find out she cheated on you? Most people say that the cheating was something they discovered either accidentally or through a little checking up. From what I hear it’s pretty rare that she ‘fesses up to it.

    If she cheated on you, you dodged a bullet. She says she loves you and misses you because she knows she “made a mistake” and wants you back. But if you take her back, know that her cheating on you will probably happen again. Run away from her as fast as you can and cut off all contact with her.

    Continue reading here and look for a new woman.

  143. Fahim says:

    She told one of our mutual friends who told me…..i confronted her about it and she said they were just friends (the guy she had sex with)….but she said it oddly so i went and checked up….found out truth that way and then she admitted it…thing is tho that those two arent dating or anything…like they currently have a friends with benefits thing going on

    im trying to forget about her and get away but i cant find it in myself to do that…i told her yesterday that i need to meet with her soon to just get my ipod back and the engagement ring i gave her….she told me to come by on saturday but that the ring still means a lot to her…she also said shes gonna give me this bracelet she finished making for my younger sister and asked for the pictures my younger sister drew for her

    she looks beautiful and im still attracted to her a lot…i kinda want to try again but it would take a very long time to trust her again if i can

  144. YOHAMI says:

    fahim. get your engament ring back and cut contact. dont do her any more favors.

    “the ring still means a lot to her”

    the ring, not you.

  145. deti says:

    Fahim:

    Get your stuff back from her and cut her off. Tell her you want the ring back; if she is not going to give it back, then let it go; but if I were you I would tell her the engagement is still off and has no chance whatsoever of being back “on”. I would tell her I am done, and there is no way I will ever marry her. I would politely and firmly decline to give her anything else and would decline receiving anything else from her.

    The point of all this is to get yourself disentangled from this cheater as soon as possible.

  146. FuriousFerret says:

    @YFR

    “Two of the most interesting “nerds” I ever met are counter-examples:”

    You must a nerd. Taking this way too literal. Obviously, when I was mentioning nerds, I was referencing the social behavior of guys without social intelligence.

    I’m sorry, NANALT (Not All Nerds Are Like That), even though those two examples weren’t nerds in the way I was referencing them.

  147. FuriousFerret says:

    “Someone can check me on this, but after the age of 35-40, our metabolic rates start to plummet and as a result, diets have to be adjusted but some weight gain is INEVITABLE”

    Your metabolic rate plummets because you haven’t done the proper 30 minutes four times a week of serious weight lifting and your muscle atrophy.

    That’s all it take, a hard serious weight lifting session for 30 minutes on monday, wed, fri and a day on the weekend to keep a reasonable muscle mass on your body.

  148. Dalrock says:

    @Fahim

    she looks beautiful and im still attracted to her a lot…i kinda want to try again but it would take a very long time to trust her again if i can

    I just want to add weight to what Yohami and Deti are already saying. In the post I mention assuming the reader isn’t in a particularly “deep hole”. What you are describing is an incredibly deep hole, one you can’t dig out of. Part of your problem is you are so smitten with her beauty that you are struggling with your decision to break it off after her cheating on you. If you struggle to hold this line, there are thousand smaller “tests” which you won’t be able to pass were you to marry her. Basically she already thinks she can do better (I know this is brutal but it is why she cheated), and you are powerless to prove otherwise to her. If you take her back, you will have caved on the ultimate test. What can you possibly do to make up for that? She will always know that when push came to shove, you got over it because you wanted her so much. Know this: she won’t be grateful for you overlooking her acting like a whore, even if she seems like she is on the surface and logic says she should. This is where psychology will trump logic every time. She will always look down on you for this and will hold you in contempt. On top of that, she isn’t a virgin and we know she has a taste for illicit sex with semi random men. You simply can’t fix this. There is a reason traditional cultures stress a woman’s chastity and pre marital virginity so much. We are in the process of relearning this in the US.

    There is another way to look at this. You were able to secure an engagement from a beautiful woman once, and this was when you had no understanding of what you are learning here. This means you have excellent status in your community. This will naturally bring more beautiful women your way, and with a bit of game I don’t see why you can’t do even better. The only danger here is can you overcome the power their beauty holds over you to hold onto the frame of the man in charge? But you can and will do better with a woman who deserves a good husband such as yourself.

  149. Stingray says:

    she told me to come by on saturday but that the ring still means a lot to her

    Fahim, this is going to hurt, but please listen. The ring doesn’t mean anything to her. She is using it as validation that a man proposed to her. She is using it as a means to get high on her feelings. She is also using it as a means to keep you hooked. Afterall, if the ring is still important to her, she must still have deep feelings for you, right? No, I’m sorry to say. If she did, she wouldn’t have cheated.

    …she also said shes gonna give me this bracelet she finished making for my younger sister and asked for the pictures my younger sister drew for her.

    Don’t allow this to happen. Really, . . . don’t. You don’t need your sister fawning over a girl who treated you like crap and you really don’t want your sister to look up to a woman like this. It’s just another hook. This is about you, not her and you need to keep it that way.

  150. Fahim says:

    I am still compltely smitten with her and in a horrible hole as you said…i will not contact her other than to get my stuff back and give her stuff back….but if she does come back to me it might be with the same things she did when we first got together

    like….she was very depressed then and had resorted to physically harming herself…she held me as a confidante and eventually began pursueing me….after a couple months i relented and we had a wonderful relationship…

    this act of infidelity tho….it makes no sense…her gma, whom she still currently lves with…has been extrmeemly against our relationship due to racism….3 days before she cheated on me…her grandmother caused her to erupt into tears and hurt her emotionally very badly…after i learned she had cheated on me she even said that she also just got tired of trying

    i was the one who took her virginity…i already have another very close female friend who admitted to being interested in me after thsi occurred….shes also very pretty…..the problem is my ex fiancee is still on my mind too much…and i can see she is becoming very dpressed again…

    so like in conclusion….i have other options…but i love my ex fiancee a lot still…the cheating she did may possibly also be because of pressure from family….if i dont help her with depression and stuff she might hurt herself

    I am seriously confused….this is also the first relationship ive had that lasted more than a couple months…i dunno even wat im asking…like maybe this was a mistake on her part where she just caved in…maybe she wont think badly of me for getting over her sluttiness?

  151. Fahim says:

    @ stingray

    would she answer truthfully u think if i just asked her? Like she never has lied to me or anything before.

    wat can i say to her….like i just want everything to go back the way it was like 3 weeks ago…i dont think she would just try to hook me or anything…how can i find out for sure?

  152. YOHAMI says:

    Fahim, she fucked a random guy on his car while she was engaged with you, and then came back to you like nothing happened. Translation: that’s her normal character. There’s nothing to go back to.

    “she was very depressed then and had resorted to physically harming herself…”

    Run.

    “the cheating she did may possibly also be because of pressure from family…”

    Turn off your hamster.

  153. 8oxer says:

    Hi Fahim:

    I have read all your posts and the excellent responses. Thanks for sharing your story.

    Many times it’s useful to project our desires into the future. For example, when you start pining away about how attractive she is now, imagine what she’ll look (and most importantly — act) like in 20 years.

    She’s really pretty and perhaps fairly hot in the sack and she’s great fun, but it doesn’t sound like she’ll make a suitable mother. Imagine having kids with this woman, picture your little boy and girl, around 7 and 9 years old, with an unstable mother who chips around with other men. Even if you stayed with her, and did your best to make up for her shortcomings, is this a healthy way to grow up?

    Dalrock and others have already alluded to the fact that going back to her now would be a bad decision. Regardless of what you say or she says, your actions will be sending the message that it is OK to cheat around with other men on you. By marrying her at this point, she will see you as someone who doesn’t respect yourself, and as such she’ll have zero respect for you, and I wouldn’t blame her (harsh as that sounds, it’s true).

    People who cheat sexually are almost always screwy in other ways too. They’re generally untrustworthy with time and money and every other important thing. You won’t just have to worry about being cuckolded and embarrassed by her lousy behavior, but will also be stolen from and lied to about other things.

    The engagement is a good test as to whether someone is fit to be married. She has proven herself unfit. Let her go and wish her well in the “friends with benefits” skanky relationship she has with other men. She might be cute, but she’s just not good enough.

    Be Well,

    Boxer

  154. deti says:

    Fahim:

    “she was very depressed then and had resorted to physically harming herself…she held me as a confidante and eventually began pursueing me….after a couple months i relented and we had a wonderful relationship…”

    Not only is she a cheat; she’s also batshit crazy. This woman sounds like she has serious mental issues. She doesn’t need a husband. She needs a therapist, psychotropic medications and a straitjacket.

    Forget the ring, forget the gifts, forget Grandma, forget the engagement. Don’t even talk to this girl again. You MUST extricate yourself from this relationship immediately.

  155. @Fahim:

    And I find something more bitter than death: the woman whose heart is snares and nets, and whose hands are fetters. He who pleases God escapes her, but the sinner is taken by her. (Ecclesiastes 7:26 – King Solomon)

  156. Stingray says:

    Fahim,

    No, she would not answer truthfully. She can’t even admit the truth to herself. Everything she is telling you are rationalizations at this point, to make herself feel better and to get you back in her life. She is lying to both herself and to you. She’s not, in her mind, thinking I have to keep this ring to make me feel better. She is coming up with what she believes are valid reasons. These reasons are not the truth. We women are extraordinarily good at coming up with good reasons for something while skirting the truth. This is where the term rationalization hamster comes from. She will continue to do this to you and the things she says will seem reasonable to you. What she says are not her actions. He actions were to cheat on you. It is overwhelmingly likely that , if you take her back, she will do it again.

    I’m sorry.

  157. Fahim says:

    @ Deti

    she was actually admitted to a psychiatric hospital twice…

    if i looked at just the descriptions and stuff of how she is and wat she has done….i would consider myself an idiot for ever dating her or for still now caring for her…i am an idiot for this

    i cant even understand why i love her so much and why this feeling isnt going away

    wow i just remembered that back in highschool she used to ask me to keep a ladder outside so she could come into my room whenever…is that kinda crazy? (only 2 months or so into our relationship i think that started)

    i am understanding now that being with her is both unhealthy and a stupid decision…idk tho how to actually forget her…how can u forget a person thats has been the closest person to you for a long long time…and has been the person that uve trusted more than any one else..

    How do i forget and like stay away from her…..she lives like a five minute walk from me so can easily drop by whenever

  158. 8oxer says:

    Fahim:

    I’m not Deti, and nothing I will write ought to be seen as a counter to his suggestions, all of which are good.

    i am understanding now that being with her is both unhealthy and a stupid decision…idk tho how to actually forget her…

    Men are innately possessing of the tendency to care for women. People will argue whether the cause was evolution of our species or a gift from God/the gods, but either way, this tendency exists and is hardly disputed by anyone.

    In a more normal and healthy society, this tendency would serve the long-term interests of the species. A man who didn’t care about a woman in trouble would probably be seen as a psychopath or heartless cretin.

    In your case, the tendency is not in service to anyone’s long term goals except the woman’s. If you’re honest with yourself, you’ll see that this noble tendency is being exploited by someone who wants to use her for her own ends.

    I don’t want to condemn her. She’s compelled by her own inborn tendencies, and is likely not fully conscious of what she’s doing. She may not be heartless, but she is disturbed and unstable, and having any more to do with her will only cause you problems.

    Men have many weaknesses, but we have many strengths as well. One of these is the ability to use reasoned forethought to predict outcomes, and use this to override emotional decisions. In this case, you will have to think rationally and intensely about what is the best thing to do, and then follow through with that in a decisive way. Since you know that being with this woman is not a good idea, you need to use your masculine strength to impose your will on your emotions, and follow through with your decision not to entangle yourself further with this chick. It’ll hurt, but you can do it, and soon enough you’ll look back and be grateful for your own strength and self-discipline.

    Take Care,

    Boxer

  159. Anonymous Reader says:

    Fahim, you are infatuated, and as 8oxer stated you are being protective of her.
    She’s counting on that. Seriously, she’s counting on your protective feelings. By being a ‘wounded bird’, she can control you. If you go back to her, you are surrendering control over yourself to her.

    It gets worse. You say you were her first man, sexually – how do you know that? It is entirely possible she is lying about that as well, again in order to arouse your protective feelings, and once again, she’s using those feelings to attempt to control you. It is very likely she will lie to you about any and every thing that will serve her interests, and a major interest she has is controlling you.

    This will not end well. Sooner or later, she will place a demand upon you that you can not or will not meet, and she will leave you for another man. If you think that you are hurting now, I can assure you that when she leaves you will hurt 10 times more. Or you will grow tired of her demands and decide to end it, only to have a stalker after you. Or she will seriously harm herself in such a way that you will appear to be responsible. The fact that she has been institutionalized twice is a giant sign, 10 meters long, covered with red LED’s and neon reading DANGER!. Consider the possibility that at some point, she may decided to harm you instead of herself. How would you deal with that? Even the most prosaic, ordinary break up – where you wake up one day, and can’t take the lying, the manipulation, the drama, the mood swings any more , and decide to end it – will bring about a storm of drama from her and very likely from her friends. And I’m sure she has some friends. Some of whom might be willing to smear your reputation, or even make false criminal accusations against you.

    Going by what you have stated, and what I and other men here have seen – in the lives of our friends, brothers, uncles, nephews, co-workers, etc. – this woman is dangerous to your mental health, your emotional health and ultimately to your physical health as well. No matter how painful you may think it to be, you must sever ties with her. If you have to move across town, get a new phone number and address, cut off mutual friends – do it. Even that price is cheaper than what it will cost to continue on with her , especially to marriage.

    Pull the plug on this relationship. It is finished.

  160. GKChesteron says:

    Nice post…good summary.

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  162. Anonymous age 70 says:

    An old book but still relevant. Doctor Laura’s TEN STUPID THINGS MEN DO. It has you nailed, men whose fantasy is to save women with problems. I betcha those women can create problems ten times faster than you can solve them.

  163. Arual says:

    I found this post to be the right tone for a newcomer to the arena. I wish the people I know that really need to read this and learn from it would.

    Unfortunately, they aren’t, and instead reading their wives are reading “empowerment” fantasies that advise them to go with their gut (without understanding why their feelings are as they are) or suffer the consequences of an unhaaaaaapy marriage.

    http://taraschofield.wordpress.com/2012/11/12/some-people-can-stay-in-your-heart-but-not-in-your-life/

    This really gets to me because I know the people involved and we’ve been dealing with the emotional fall-out from the husband’s side (a very good friend of my husband’s). The wife works in a salon led by a empowerment icon which has led to nothing but a bunch of “You go Grrrrrrrrrl!” from her main social network. Go figure.

    Of course, the husband doesn’t make it any better by continuing to supplicate and waste his resources trying to stay close to her. If he only understood that he has been making it worse…

  164. deti says:

    arual:

    I read the linked post. Schofield’s advice is what you give when deciding to keep a friend, not a spouse.

    You don’t have a spouse brought into your life “for a while” and then the relationship is over.

    The wife has decided she loves her husband but isn’t in love with him, isn’t attracted to him, he has become unattractive, and she doesn’t want to be married anymore. I would bet that this has coincided with the last child leaving the nest.

    What he should have done is this: “You’re asking me to move out because you think our marriage is over? OK. I’m not moving out. You want out of the marriage? YOU move out. I’ll go separate out our finances. You can pay your own bills because I won’t be doing so anymore. I’ll help you pack and call a cab for you. You won’t be taking one of the cars because we own them jointly and we’ll have to work out who gets which one. If you leave in one of the cars, I’ll report it stolen. Let me know who your lawyer will be.”

    I also question the validity of relationship advice from someone like Schofield who admits in the linked post that her own marriage ended in divorce.

  165. tweell says:

    Then the wife locks herself in the bedroom, calls 911, claims abuse, and he’s arrested. She then goes and gets a restraining order. After a few days, he may get released from jail, and allowed to collect some belongings under supervision. He certainly won’t be allowed to stay.

    His right to carry arms is negated, and she’s probably sold them already, along with anything else she thought would bring in some cash and hurt him emotionally. He gets the beater car, because she needs the nice one and got first pick, courtesy of that jail visit.

    If this doesn’t happen, he’s lucky.

  166. RG3 says:

    Preach!!!!!

    This should be mandatory reading in marriage counseling.

    Would have saved me five miserable, and five mixed, years of my fifteen year marriage. I actually left my church for a while over this. I was a poster child of marital faithfulness, church leader, had an accountability group, ran the men’s group, etc. Horrible beta push-over at home. Wife almost left me. I got game, manned up, saved marriage before it was too late. But I was so pissed that running the church’s marriage playbook almost failed me that I couldn’t go to that church for a while. We are back, in the back pew, doing nothing but giving and mentoring a few college guys. And they all read my blog, hopefully breaking the cycle.

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  168. Married 30 something says:

    I am a married worman. I feel more and more cynical as a I read these posts. My husband’s favourite quote is “Of all my mother’s children, I love myself the best.” I guess I have been the “mark” in the “game” all along.

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  182. I’m going to try to get my brother to read you! Our mom was somewhat feminist… I got kicked out (and yes, my husband became my hero) because I wanted to marry him. This is good advice! Thank you.

  183. T says:

    Wow…. After reading this a light bulb went off. I’m a divorced 40 year old. I have been dating a woman for a few years and all it ok, but not good. I realize over time I have slowly lost that leadership position in our relationship. I think things would change for the positive if I took it back. Do you have an email or forum? I would like to discuss these ideas some more.

  184. Dalrock says:

    @T

    Wow…. After reading this a light bulb went off. I’m a divorced 40 year old. I have been dating a woman for a few years and all it ok, but not good. I realize over time I have slowly lost that leadership position in our relationship. I think things would change for the positive if I took it back. Do you have an email or forum? I would like to discuss these ideas some more.

    Welcome T.

    There are a number of resources you could pursue, depending on your perspective. Athol Kay has the blog/book and forum Married Man Sex Life. There are also blogs focused more on the pickup side like Chateau Heartiste and Return of Kings. These last two aren’t marriage focused so be warned in advance (they can also be quite crass), but a good part of what they explain there can be re-purposed into marriage or a LTR. There are of course very important moral considerations either way. I gave my take on using Game in Christian marriage in this recent post.

    Edit: You may also want to check out The Private Man.

    Edit 2: I almost forgot. Check out Vox Day’s Alpha Game.

  185. Amy says:

    Oh My, I have sat hear on my couch with my husband reading this with him till he is now snoring in my ear!!! These comments and advice are sounding more barbaric as they go on. My advice is simple 5 dates is not really that much investment, its not like you’ve given her your hand in marriage. People don’t change UNLESS they fined faults in themselves and chose to change. We are who we are and we need to be able to except the good with the bad, I am shore your not all saying that you don’t have any bad traits. If you can’t deal with some bad with the good how can you do the till death do you part. I am obviously a women and my advise is to simple say:

    hey babe… I understand you have strong feelings on this matter… but sometime you come on a little strong with it, I like you allot and wouldn’t want to get the wrong idea about your passion to these issues.

    I beleave you need to state your feelings on her actions but you can not stomp on a woman’s fire, after all that is the thing that attracts a man and a woman is our differences!

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