Men no longer footing the bill to court older women.

There are many ways the feminist dream can turn into a nightmare.  Most of them involve flawed assumptions that men won’t ever adjust to women changing the rules.  The Telegraph has a new article out describing one way this is happening:  Love in the time of austerity.

As the cost of living escalates, so it seems, has the cost of loving, at least for the more mature woman. While older men remain willing to prise open their chequebooks for a 25-year-old whose alabaster complexion would grace the yacht of any concupiscent billionaire, an increasing number are ignoring the traditional etiquette of courting when it comes to women over the age of 35.

While it would seem inevitable that men would eventually figure out that women are extending the age of courtship beyond all reason, the tone of the article is shock that it could ever come to this.  Suddenly these very untraditional women are all about tradition:

Gallantry is in retreat, buckling under the forces of recession, spurious excuses of equality – and the assumption that such women are in no position to protest…

The article is full of quotes from both men and women anecdotally confirming the trend.  The only statistic offered in the article is that the number of women between 35 and 50 who are currently single has increased 7% in two years.  While it is light on hard data, at the very least it points to the risk of becoming committed to the trail.  Actually the trail is likely the only thing these women have any commitment to, which is why they are bemoaning their fate.  Otherwise, why do they find themselves looking for romance and the next stepping stone on the path of serial monogamy as they enter middle age?  Statistically we know very few of them are in this position through no fault of their own.  There may be the odd widow or exception to the rule regarding excuse #6, but these are going to be few and far between.  The vast majority of these women have hopped from stone to stone on the path of serial monogamy until the path disappeared in front of them.

We learn about 39 year old Jennifer Ames, who lost her accounting job last year and as a result was forced to give up the expensive gym membership, beauty treatments, and shopping sprees she used to stave off the effects of age.  Her boyfriend noticed the difference and broke up with her.  He now has a new 25 year old girlfriend, and why shouldn’t he?  He had made no commitment to Ms. Ames, and she hadn’t made a commitment to him.  If you are playing the boyfriend/girlfriend game there is no commitment there, only one or both people keeping their options open.

The author also quotes a male friend of hers on the topic:

I’d be prepared to invest a lot of money on a woman under 30. There’s more mileage there and you feel good having her on your arm. Why would I spend money to have a 40-year-old middle-ranking executive on my arm instead? And if she is on my arm, she’d better pull her weight financially.

Again, why not?  Both the under 30 and the 40 year old women in question are out to get the best deal they can without becoming tied down.  If he is going to forgo the moral path of marriage just as the women are doing, why shouldn’t he act in his best interest?

Another man in the article makes a similar point:

While I would happily spend money on a real babe, over whom other men are competing, I don’t feel the need to do the same with an older woman who is probably desperate…

The entire article is worth a read, but it closes with a particularly entertaining bit of rationalization.  It turns out that middle aged women are going to punish men their age for preferring young sexy women, and will take their no longer sexy selves off the market!  You go aging girls!  Hit them where it hurts!  The author explains:

Once, wining and dining grown-up members of my sex were willing to overlook men’s imperfections in search of a committed relationship. This gave men a certain sexual power, even if it came tinged with gratitude. No longer.

Looking for commitment?  I respectfully suggest that she doesn’t understand the meaning of the word.  There is a very small likelihood that a woman finds herself in her late 30s or 40s unmarried after seriously looking for commitment.  But it isn’t just her who is punishing men for no longer being willing to foot the bill for her serial monogamous lifestyle.  She tells us about another middle aged woman who is closing up man-hopping shop!  42 year old Eliza Budsworth is staging her own form of man strike at the injustice of being asked to split the cost of a romantic getaway.  How dare he!  What kind of a woman does he think she is?

I had the chance of a romantic weekend in Venice last month but the man who asked me wanted half the hotel bill up front, and so that was that. In any case, that sort of attitude doesn’t really sweep you off your feet. I know I’m not this year’s top model, but if men who aren’t exactly George Clooney are only willing to be generous with 23-year-old sexpots, they’re also the long-term losers.

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409 Responses to Men no longer footing the bill to court older women.

  1. I also notice an undercurrent here of financial iresponsibility. Spending all their money on lifestyle and nothing on preparing to support a family. Gym memberships, spa treatments and makeup are all blown wealth that does nothing to add to a woman’s net worth. An established woman in her late 30′s or forties should enter a relationship with a stable chunk of cash and properties that she can combine with her husbands similar chunk to produce wealth that can be used to support a family. The women in this article all see money as just something to support themselves but men are expected to save so that they have extra to blow on them. This is just one more thing that makes them unsuitable as wives. They are not thinking like they want to be a part of a financial partnership that benefits someone else.

  2. Phantasmagoria says:

    Given the current economic climate, I would see asking to split the cost of a weekend in Venice as being rather practical, but I guess some people are still stuck with the idea of equality = you pay for me.

    Can’t be that much of a catch if that’s all it takes to set her off, I guess.

    I do like how apparently they’re “willing to overlook men’s imperfections” though. As I recall, there is a fable about men carrying all their problems on their back in a sack. This leads them to easily point out the faults of everyone else, but to never see their own.

  3. deti says:

    I’m not the least bit surprised by this. This is what women fought so hard for. This is what women are telling us. “I’m equal to a man in every way! I can earn, live, eat, drink, work and fu*k like a man! I don’t NEED no man! *But I want one.* So there!” Female bloggers I know are quite fond of saying that women no longer need men for financial support. Men are doing nothing other than taking women at their word — as well they should.

    Ladies: If you can do everything a man can do, then you can also pay half for it.

  4. Interested says:

    “One woman I know who protested when her date, who had done all the romantic running, asked her to pay her half of the bill at an expensive London restaurant, received the response: “Do you want to go back in time and be some submissive little housewife?” Another was told, under similar circumstances, that her attitude “lacked modernity”.”

    “Once, wining and dining grown-up members of my sex were willing to overlook men’s imperfections in search of a committed relationship. This gave men a certain sexual power, even if it came tinged with gratitude. No longer.”

    Thanks for a good laugh this morning. This entire article is filled with nitrous oxide fueled rationalizations. Especially when it ends up with the special ladies stating that if men won’t treat them the way they want then they will just take their special charms off the market. They, apparently, don’t need men anymore.

    I do have to give some credit to the author for clearly articulating the dynamic of older dating. You know, the dynamic about women overplaying their hand that is discussed with regularity on this blog and others. But I can’t help but read it as older women placing their last card on the table.

    “If you won’t treat me the way I want you to and value me as I value myself, then I will remove myself from the dating market”

    One last weak effort at shaming an audience of men that won’t likely waste the energy to shrug and say, “So what”.

  5. deti says:

    This is looking quite different among the hoi polloi in the States. From the sounds of things, men aren’t willing to spend more than the cost of a few drinks or a video rental on a woman until sex happens. You don’t see men willing to pay half on a weekend away until well after sex happens, from what it sounds like.

  6. Opus says:

    The more desparate they are, the more insulting and demanding they become. Any woman over 40 who is single must be either a serial monogamist (bad news) or a serial slut (even worse). Why would I want someone like that when I can charm (and game) the 20-somethings. If they want a man, and a younger one at that, they can pay for one. Isn’t feminism wonderful. :)

  7. bskillet81 says:

    I had the chance of a romantic weekend in Venice last month but the man who asked me wanted half the hotel bill up front, and so that was that. In any case, that sort of attitude doesn’t really sweep you off your feet

    Sounds like a potential nominee for Entitlement Princess of the Month.

  8. “25-year-old whose alabaster complexion would grace the yacht of any concupiscent billionaire”

    What a snooty way to describe the beauty natural to a young woman. The writer is either a “mature woman” or his editor is.

  9. The Wall
    https://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/18/the-wall/

    When I wrote Navigating the SMP, the reason I used 30 as the general age women typically hit the ‘Wall’ is really a combination of factors. Most importantly it represents the threshold at which most women realize their lessened capacity to sexually compete with the next generation of women in their ‘actualized’ sexual peak (22-24). However, there is a male part of the Wall equation that needs to be understood. 30 is also the general age at which men (should) become aware of their own, longer-lasting sexual market value and potential. This affects women’s interpretations of the Wall. Once a Man is aware that he has the capacity to attract the sexual attentions of the younger women he’d previously had limited access and understanding of, his actions and imperatives define the Wall for women who are approaching that threshold. And unsurprisingly this is the point at which Wall-fearing women begin their accusations of men’s infantile ego issues, shaming, etc. for preferring younger women than themselves.

    The Threat
    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/02/10/the-threat/

    Nothing is more threatening yet simultaneously attractive to a woman than a man who is aware of his own value to women.

    For a woman, to encounter a man with a healthy awareness of his own value to women, this constitutes a threat. Here is a man for whom’s attention women will demonstrably compete for, AND he knows this. This is the most basic affront to the feminine imperative; to be unplugged, of high SMP value and to derive confidence from it. Therefore, in order to actualize her own sexual strategy, his self-confidence MUST be put into self-doubt, because if such a man were to use this knowledge to his own benefit he may not select her from a pool of better prospective women. Thus she must ask “Are you really sure of yourself? You think you’re so great? Maybe you’re just egotist? Don’t tempt fate.”

  10. Jim says:

    I would never date women my age and I’m 40. Why should I when I’ve been told I look like I’m in my early 30′s?

  11. Johnycomelately says:

    “Another woman I know, who at 39 still has curves that would have a bishop kicking through a stained-glass window, has been celibate for six months.”

    I know guys in the prime of their youth who went on dry spells for years (not for a lack of trying) and yet a menopausal woman edging 40 going without for 6 months is a misfortune? Holy cow are these broads self centered.

  12. okrahead says:

    Dalrock, you said: ” Looking for commitment? I respectfully suggest that she doesn’t understand the meaning of the word. There is a very small likelihood that a woman finds herself in her late 30s or 40s unmarried after seriously looking for commitment.”
    Well, it depends on what you mean by commitment. I would suggest that these womyn are indeed looking for commitment: They are looking for men who will commit to them. They simply have no intention of returning the commitment themselves. This is how womyn define “commitment”: The man foots the bill, worships me, waits on me, is sexually exclusive to me, and I can leave as soon as I get offered a better deal.
    I especially enjoyed the aging harridan who explained that if men were going to spend their money on “23 year old sexpots” then the men would be the losers. Ah, yes, what we all yearn for, a middle aged war pig who will constantly assure us she is so much more entertaining to be with than a 23 year old sexpot. The hamster is indeed invulnerable to any ray of truth.

  13. Someone should point out to these ridiculous women that the feminist journalists have been lying to their feminist readers for years. Moral: Don’t fall for your own propaganda.

    Also, they NEVER asked men how they felt about any of the changes in the rules proclaimed by feminists. Now they are belatedly discovering that “it takes two to tango”.

  14. Igniss says:

    But the consequences are going to be ominous for “both sexes”! LMAO

  15. BlackCat says:

    “If you don’t want me, then I shan’t grace you with my presence!” *stamps feet*

  16. Feminist Hater says:

    Their approach is exactly what guys want. They’ll be doing all men a favour by removing themselves from the dating pool. I guess their shit don’t smell sweeter than most after all. If you’re a Christian, you can’t beat a young and chaste girl who wants to marry. And even if you’re not a Christian, an older women still can’t compete against a younger, tighter and hotter women.

    This is truly a case of them overplaying their hand. I don’t know whether to laugh or cry.

  17. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    Once, wining and dining grown-up members of my sex were willing to overlook men’s imperfections in search of a committed relationship. This gave men a certain sexual power, even if it came tinged with gratitude. No longer.

    Did anyone else read this and imagine it re-written to be more relvenet to the article:

    Once, wining and dining grown-up members of my sex were willing to overlook women’s imperfections in search of a committed relationship. This gave women a certain sexual power, even if it came tinged with gratitude. No longer.

    It’s not even just the physical aging. Women my age (40) aren’t as pleasant.
    I think my generation is the last that was really raised to be beta providers by beta providers in intact marriages. We had divorces growing up, but it was just the start of the no-fault wave. The 40+ year old women were more than likely raised in intact beta households. They hit the market in their 20s, moxie’d up, blew apart their families for cash and prizes, and can’t understand why men my age won’t fish in their lake or chum the water to get a nibble.

  18. I recall 24 years ago when I was 26 and dating, I met a somewhat older gal, yes, met in a tavern, which is better than a club I guess, and we started seeing each other.
    I was shuffling through the mail on her kitchen counter and found a ton of bills, various clothing stores and the like, as well as a check account statement.
    She was in the shower and beauty ritual so I leisurely reviewed a snapshot of her finances. She was hand to mouth paying minimums. When I asked her about it her answer blew me away. She was a mid manager at Sun Microsystems, so not stupid….she said “I make it so the payments are due the day after payday then I always have the money”

    Yea, they definately are waiting for a man to offer something fiscal

  19. I’ve never really understood why women in their 30s and 40s aren’t willing to split checks or take turns paying for dates. In my city, most of us make as much or more than our male counterparts, so why wouldn’t we be responsible to pay for half of the costs of courtship? When I was single, and looking for a committed (marriage) relationship, I assumed that such costs were part of the search for Mr. Right, and acted accordingly. In fact, it made me uncomfortable when men insisted on paying the entire check, because I don’t like non-reciprocal social obligations, and I think they tend to taint people’s expectations. I’ve always preferred to pay my own way, in business and socially.

    Basically, I wanted to be treated like an equal by my future partner. If I want a guy to treat me like an equal, I have to be equal, including assuming the responsibilities and obligations of equality.

    My husband and I split the check on our first date, and then took turns paying for every other date and trip we took for the rest of our relationship. We still do it, even though it’s our money, because we each have a set amount of spending money in our household budget for entertainment and meals out with friends.

    This is something I’ve been saying to my female friends in my age group for quite a while now. We wanted to be equal on the job, that has spillover on the dating world. You want the same pay, same opportunity, same power as a man, you should be prepared to pay for dating just like a man does.

  20. Badger says:

    Love how “mature” is defined as “over 35.” Adulthood starts at 20-22. A 25-year old used to be mature, but these basket cases never grow up.

    “and the assumption that such women are in no position to protest…”

    The funny thing is that if you can’t dictate the terms upon which you engage in the market, then you ARE in no position to protest. The idea that they really, truly, don’t have much bargaining power is lost – instead of demanding their price of what they think they deserve and seeing where the chips fall, they insist that men should, out of some kind of non-specific magnanimity, engage them on a level playing field.

    “I had the chance of a romantic weekend in Venice last month but the man who asked me wanted half the hotel bill up front, and so that was that. In any case, that sort of attitude doesn’t really sweep you off your feet.”

    The lesson here for guys (which gamers have learned) is to put in the cash but make sure you get what’s coming to you. If a guy is expected to invest money, leadership and planning in “sweeping her off her feet,” he’s more than justified in making sure he gets a return on it. I talk to women about this, and they parrot the feminist line about “just cause you bought me dinner doesn’t mean you’re entitled to sex!” and I don’t think they understand at all that they can’t have it both ways, free cash and prizes from men without any expectation of recompense (sexual or otherwise). The male mind finds that very unfair, and they don’t get why – they just fly off about “male entitlement” and “nice guys aren’t really nice because they give you things and expect stuff in return.” Nobody taught these women the fundamental rule of life: there is no such thing as a free lunch.

    TL;DR for the last paragraph: don’t pay money for sex, unless you’ve identified women you’re sure will put out when you flash cash.

    “but if men who aren’t exactly George Clooney are only willing to be generous with 23-year-old sexpots, they’re also the long-term losers.”

    Not losers if they’re banging 23-year old sexpots. I humbly wager that plenty of these entitled middle agers were getting plenty of generosity (or at least the opportunity for it) from older men when they were of a younger age, and are just upset the other shoe has dropped.

  21. Feminist Hater says:

    Badger, no one seems to have taught them the idea of reciprocation. A woman really has the opportunity to ‘expect’ courtship between the ages of 18 to 24. That is my belief, during that period she should be really serious about finding her husband but should not be having sex. As soon as she has sex with any man, the offer of courtship is removed and she must pay her own way. After 24, she is passing her prime years and used them up without being serious and is therefore no longer playing by the ‘courtship’ rules and must pay her own way.

  22. BlackCat says:

    no one seems to have taught them the idea of reciprocation.

    Of course not. Because then they would have to ask themselves the question: “Am I a whore?” And I seriously doubt that most modern women would like the honest answer to that one.

  23. Feminist Hater says:

    I should point out that the idea that a woman could expect courtship in her younger years isn’t against the idea of reciprocation. The reciprocation is still there. For a girl to expect that courtship in her younger years, she must reciprocate by being serious about marriage and getting married to the right man and stay with him in a life union. Those are the rules of the old courtship model. That’s what those ladies are missing. There is no such thing, in my mind at least, as courtship beyond the age of 24.

  24. Badger says:

    “I know guys in the prime of their youth who went on dry spells for years (not for a lack of trying) and yet a menopausal woman edging 40 going without for 6 months is a misfortune? Holy cow are these broads self centered.”

    This was one of my first realizations when I started reading the manosphere – that not-unattractive women really and truly don’t understand how long men’s dry spells can be, because they have to exert an order of magnitude less effort to acquire sex.

    I think I first read such an anecdote at HUS (linked from another chick blog), where a guy and a girl banged for the first time, and she was shocked when he revealed it had been six months (or two years, I forget which) since he’d last had sex. It was apex fallacy 101, she just had no idea there were men in the sexual desert. There really is that phenomenon where less-attractive men are invisible to the female brain when they are composing their view of the sexual world.

    Women really don’t get how easy it is for them to get laid compared to guys. Female writers try to paper over this by saying “but women don’t want sex, they want committtttttttment and they just use sex to get it.” I’ve been with a few women in my day, in varying degrees of commitment, and talked with a lot more about it, and the idea they only enjoy sex when wrapped in a long-term commitment sure coulda fooled me.

    Solomon II’s post about “emotionally single” women (meaning sexually active but not in loooove) also hit that angle hard.

  25. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    The key to ourselves is often found in our language. One sentence in this article reads: “Gallantry is in retreat…”

    Think about that word for a second. Who uses the word “gallantry” anymore? Your grandmom? Gallantry is an old-fashioned word and it’s revealing the writer used it because it underscores the fact that while women are cheered for being rah-rah “modern and liberated,” men are expected to still act like they’re courting women in your grandmother’s heyday.

    People’s language gives them away, and this writer shows her stripes as clearly biased with the use of this one word. Would she have expected women to also be “chaste” and behave in a “ladylike” manner?

  26. Badger says:

    It’s funny how women will reject the idea of game (which has a lot of evo-psych justifications, even if they are post facto), yet jump right to cheap evo-psych when it comes to paying for free stuff: “women are looking for provider signals, why shouldn’t men pay for dates?” This ignores the bottom-line proven fact that buying women shit doesn’t get you laid these days, which is the ultimate (and really only) reason you need to explain why guys aren’t willing to do it.

    The rules are simple, I tell them to Millenial women and tell them to ignore them at their peril:
    -Offer to pay your half on dates (certain exceptions apply like birthdays out)
    -Don’t get butthurt when he takes you up on the offer (some women use it as a shit test)

    A guy who’s footing all the bills is one of two things:
    -A guy who thinks he owns you, and if you don’t give him his expected payback you’ll be gone
    -A supplicator who you will come to not respect (and no longer tingle for)

  27. Feminist Hater says:

    I like the words “Gallantry” and “Chivalry”. In their true meanings they are words that are honorable. To be gallant in battle was the epitome of being a man. These words, used ages ago amongst men, were not to be dismissed lightly. As a gallant Knight, you were respected among your male peers, it had zero to do with women. Once again they turned that around and now those words relate to being a sniveling wimp at the beck and call of modern day women.

  28. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    I humbly wager that plenty of these entitled middle agers were getting plenty of generosity (or at least the opportunity for it) from older men when they were of a younger age, and are just upset the other shoe has dropped.

    I don’t know, in the real sense of “I don’t know.” When I was in my 20s, I didn’t see a lot of women my age dating guys in late 30s and 40s. It could be the circles I was in or the women I was chasing. I’m sure it happened, but I think it’s more likely now.

    Touching on what I wrote earlier about folks in their 40s being the last generation raised largely in intact beta-led households, I think women in their 40s had the full effect of feminism and marriage 2.0. They’ve had the “fun 20s,” walked away from marriage 2.0 or hit the wall, and are now in competition for men their age (and the assets to provide security) with the next generation of women. They’re in competition with their younger selves for the men they rejected.

  29. sunshinemary says:

    You know, if we put aside the moral aspect of all this for a moment and look strictly at mating strategies, this makes quite a bit of sense.

    Females look for certain characteristics in males that indicate good genetic fitness – height, dominance, facial symmetry, etc. They also look for a well-resourced male who will invest in off-spring. Some women don’t find a man to pair-bond with who meets these criteria – maybe because she is unrealistic about her own SMV or because she has over-ridden the “mating strategy” part of her brain. So what do they do? I found something interesting that I was reading in an Oxford Univ. lecture on human mating behavior:

    Serial Monogamy and Polyandry
    For many women, marriage to a socially dominant, wealthy, and physically attractive man who is devoted to her and her children is not achievable
    To adjust, some women develop a successive series of relationships with a number of men or several simultaneously, each of whom provides some investment during the course of the relationship
    South American Indian societies – women engage in sexual relations with men who are not their social partners, especially after becoming pregnant. These secondary fathers are obligated to provide material resources and protection to the woman’s child. The confusion of paternity is such that both the primary and secondary fathers invest in the child

    Doesn’t it seem like the women in the article are unconsciously doing that – looking for a number of men over time who will provide some investment? And when that investment is removed, the women remove themselves from the sexual marketplace. It really does make sense, even if it’s sad and yucky to contemplate.

  30. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    I think they’re just upset that the only men they can get attention from are the men who can’t attract younger women. The men they can attract have had the full dose of hypergamy in their 20s-30s.

    We’ve talked about this (or, at least deti has). This is the life post-divorce for 40 something women, not Eat, Pray, Love.

  31. Dalrock says:

    There were links to more information in the comments section of the Telegraph article. It turns out that Ms. Wyatt is quite well known for her sex life. The Daily Mail cites one source which they say claims she had two abortions during an affair with a MP (who lost some of his rank because of the outing of the affair). One of the segments in the Mail piece made me think of her article in the Telegraph (Daily Mail quotes from an unnamed source):

    She said that with the second one, Boris kept changing his mind. She wanted to have the baby and at first he said she should have it, but said if she did, he wouldn’t be able to support it.

    Then he said she should have an affair with someone else and say it was their child…

    According to Petronella, Boris said the cost was too high. Eventually he came up with the money…

    Doesn’t he know a gentleman always pays for the abortion?

    Here are some more articles I found, each featuring pictures of her for those who are curious:

    Petronella Wyatt: single, childless and very proud

    The state penalises women who are childless and unmarried: ‘I might be single, but I’m not a failure’

    Bumbling Tory faces quiz

    Anger at Boris fling claims

  32. jg says:

    Who would want to make a committment to a old used up 35-40+ yr old hag when men can bang and have fun with tight younguns in their late teens and ealry 20′s who have less mileage and less baggage?Even if these hags remove themselves from the SMP, I am sure not going to miss em!! Chivalry and Gallantry my a$$…

  33. GBFM MAXIM # 1:

    A woman’s courtship value is equal or less than the lowest price she ever gave her pussy away for. lzozozoz

    After a woman has had a one-night stand
    or given her pussy for free
    her courtship value
    is 0.
    or less than 0.

    As why would you want to be the guy
    who pays for what others got when it was younger hotter tighter
    forty pounds lighter
    for freeee?

    lzozlzozlzzo

    After a woman passes 25, whence she had generally been buttcocked numerous times and desouled, her courtship value is negative. It is the woman, who is now wired fiat bernanke cash and allowed to excel in fiat bernanke programs, who must pay the man so as to court him.

    For a 25 year old multi-buttocked, desouled, bernankifed woman represents a huge risk to a man’s livelihood, his time, his conscience, his soul, and his well-being. And the man must be compensated justly.

    lzolzolzozozozozoz

  34. lavazza1891 says:

    I looked up the author on Wikipedia:

    Personal life

    “Wyatt, known to her friends as “Petsy,” lives with her mother in St John’s Wood, North London.[1]

    After she had lived in the United States for the latter half of 2003 with Charles Bruce Berry at his home in Charlottesville, Virginia, in 2004 British newspapers reported that she had had a four-year affair with the then-Conservative MP Boris Johnson.[1] The affair, which had been well hinted at in UK newspaper gossip columns, included passionate London taxi cab rides around St John’s Wood during which they would ask the cab driver to insert cassette tapes of Wyatt singing Puccini.[7] Although Johnson had promised to leave his wife,[8] after a break-up, they had rekindled their relationship during which Wyatt had become pregnant and then had an abortion; resulting in her mother discovering the affair and reporting it to the press.[1] Johnson was sacked from his shadow cabinet post by Michael Howard, not because of the affair but because he had lied about it.”

    Like attracts like. She does seem to have really weird friends and acquaintances.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/lifestyle/9115575/The-state-penalises-women-who-are-childless-and-unmarried-I-might-be-single-but-Im-not-a-failure.html

  35. P Ray says:

    ^ I second that! lolz!

  36. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    Wyatt’s deluded. From an article linked:

    And what does the Government do for us, once we have lost our jobs after decades of soldiering on? One in five women in Britain, aged 35 and over, is single and childless. Do we not deserve some reward for our contribution to the nation’s coffers, not to mention the problem of over-population?

    Not according to the state…

    Compare my position to that of a woman with a child under five.

    No, let’s compare you to a man with no wife and child. Is her compensation more or less?
    She wants additional cash and prizes for living a life she actively and deliberately (two abortions) pursued. Does she mention men of equal status (single and childless)? Of course not. Men have no value.

  37. greyghost says:

    A single woman past 25 is for having sex with. Younger women are for building families with. To a man that has seen the rigged game and understands what marriage and family is for men, I’d say get the pussy you want at the price you are wiliing to pay. So a woman that wants a family better get on it and a mother and father better get on it too and make sure little princess gets the message. Past 25 she is a booty call at best and if she does get a sucker she will divorce the guy.
    BTW this article is what I had in mind when i say involutary childless spinsterhood. Right now what is happening is from bad choices on the womens part. this article shows what happens when men adapt to the choices. Not every woman gets the experience these women get so it is something new to write an article about. But it will be involuntary when women that want a family try to go along with the herd and find out the herd was misery loving company. (that is when the fun really begins, the double down on misandry to save the sinking ship will be off the charts) A male pill will get us there nearly over night. (it will be a sinking ship that was hit in the magazines kinda like the HMS Hood was hit be the Bismark)
    Over all this comes back to feminism being a way for females to enjoy living in a civilized society with out any obligations to the maintenance of that same society at any and all levels and any measure.

  38. Oh Dal, you missed a HaYOOOOOGE aspect to this. A very predictable one – why all those British aging babes go on vacations to “the Middle East” or “North Africa.” They go there to get a young hot guy in a desperate second or third world country and what’s even better is THESE GUYS SCAM THEM! Just look up “Syrian tourist scam romance” or something like that and you’ll see it’s common.

  39. P Ray says:

    @greyghost
    They want to enjoy a civilised society while behaving in an uncivilised way, and men should enable that, because any man who does not help women is scum.
    Relational aggression and peer pressure are their tools.

  40. P Ray says:

    @Cpt Capitalism:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-400187/Men-sale.html
    It’s a holiday romance, I’m not sure those last past the holiday…

  41. P Ray says:

    @Feminist Hater (this is part 1 of 2)
    http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/j/jensen/03/jensen120103.htm
    One-Sided Chivalry

    December 1, 2003

    by Pete Jensen

    It’s very fashionable of late to attack Men’s Rights Activists as holding a contempt for chivalry, and this is used as grounds for further canards such as being anti-family, anti-woman, hopeless misogynists, whiners, and so on and so forth. The whole litany of ad hominem attacks follows. Okay. To give a shallow answer to a shallow observation: “Damn straight! We do hold chivalry in contempt. Bailiff! Haul us away in irons! Guilty as charged!”

    The disconnect here, is that people who blithely drop the word “chivalry” have little understanding of what it actually means in a historical sense. It has been prostituted and devolved into a one way street in modern thinking and usage, which is why we speak of it in such mocking and derisive terms. Pull up a seat, one and all, and let your Uncle Pete enlighten you.

    [D: See the rest at the original link.]

  42. Interested says:

    I’m not sure I will articulate this well but I’ll try.

    Deti has commented about the desert of sex a lot of men face in their twenties as they build careers. Many women don’t see them until they decide that it’s time to find a provider. This was certainly true in the late eighties and early nineties when I was entering the workforce. Maybe even more so now.

    But many of us hit 30 and found that our attractiveness increased exponentially. Some just rode that new exciting wave forever. Many married. Some of the married types endured the “I’m not happy” divorce.

    Here’s my point. The same dynamic many men experienced in their twenties appears to be playing itself out in their forties post divorce. The newly minted divorcees are all convinced that lot’s of exciting, exceptional men are waiting to court them and provide them with exciting sex and commitment. So they all go out and party and take vacations and spend, spend, spend. They didn’t have to deal with the wall at 30 because they were married. But it exists and now they get to experience an even harder wall of truth. All the quotes in the article from various ladies spell it out very clearly.

    Obviously, the various men who are single in their forties run the gamut from successful studs to out of work, out of shape men. If you happen to have a good job and work hard to keep fit you get to experience a mix of these divorcees. The newly divorced ones who treat you like you were treated at twenty five because you aren’t George Clooney and a millionaire. In other word, they ignore you. But it seems to me that the longer they are divorced in their forties the more reality sets in. The more you become the desirable guy who is fit and can provide. More like the guy who at 32 finds out that he has become quite the catch. Bonus points if you are tall!

    The unfortunate reality for these ladies is that most aren’t so special anymore. Very few seem to have developed any skills, hobbies, or interest in keeping fit. Couple that with poor financial skills and they don’t represent much of a catch for a man who is successful, fit and trying to rebuild their financial portfolio post divorce. Add in the fact that while most men enjoy sex they aren’t, in their mid to late forties, the hormone crazed kid they were in their twenties who would do anything for a sniff of sex. The men now conduct a hard cost/benefit analysis of any relationship. They aren’t blinded by their pursuit of sex.

    For some of the ladies the reality sets in and they adjust. And they gladly pay for their share on dates. Others just continue to live in fantasyland and their prize is to get quoted in articles like the one linked above.

  43. van Rooinek says:

    If women want oldfashioned romance, chivalry, gallantry from men, they need to be oldfashioned themselves. A as diehard chivalrist myself (indeed, it was one of the things that drew my wife to me), I have to sadly say, chivalry is dying because modern women mostly do not deserve it. Also, since they pervasively nuclear-reject the old-school guys in favor of the badboy carousel, we have to add, that they generally do not reward it.

  44. Yes.

    The very foundation of civilization was the sexual loyalty of a woman
    to a man.

    Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey are bookended with a woman’s sexuality.

    By deserting her husband and running off with Paris, Helen causes the Trojan War, whence the Iliad opens.

    By remaining faithful to her husband during his twenty year absence fighting the Trojan War, Penelope preserves Odysseus’s home and Kingdom, as their love conquers all.

    This is why the Bernankifierz deocnstructed the Great Books and Classics, and no longer teach these beautiful lessons to women, as they profit not from peace and the home and family, but from war.

  45. P Ray says:

    @GBFM:
    Even in the Philosophy classes, you have lecturers who try to argue that “women had fewer choices” … even when you point out to them that an upper-class Greek noblewoman, had way more choices than an African male slave.
    The Classics, it matters who conducts the classes that determine what lessons are learned.

  46. Anonymous Reader says:

    Note again what is being held out as “the goods”. I ran into this about a week back, while on travel. A woman in her 40′s, in good physical shape, just dumped out part of her C.V. on my figurative lap. She listed off a couple of jobs she’d had, with particular care to point out how one allowed her to live within walking distance of work, her gym and the local Whole Foods. All this with much eye contact IOI’s and a bit of declotage pushed my way. I triggered this by accident, frankly, in the course of discussing the issues of management of hotels in the post-bubble world.

    She was, as noted, trim & furthermore dressed in a practical, but feminine way. She looked very female, but she tried very deliberately to interest me in her material, masculine qualities. Very likely that’s all she knows to do. Projecting what women look for in a man, into what a man should look for in a woman. Plus, reading between the lines of her CV she’s hopped jobs a lot, and very likely hopped men in the process. A man who took her up on her offer would have to spell out clearly his expectations at the very start, and hold her to them with a strong frame.

    The question is, what’s she got that is worth all that extra work? Her awesome awesomeness? That ain’t enough. Not even close.

  47. Houston says:

    “Once, wining and dining grown-up members of my sex were willing to overlook men’s imperfections in search of a committed relationship.”

    Willing to overlook men’s imperfections? What a staggeringly obvious piece of b.s. I remember reading somewhere that communist propaganda was best described as loquacious insanity. The old Reds have nothing on aging, feminist women and their hamsters.

  48. van Rooinek says:

    She looked very female, but she tried very deliberately to interest me in her material, masculine qualities. Very likely that’s all she knows to do. Projecting what women look for in a man, into what a man should look for in a woman.

    Some men do the reverse projection. Since men are drawn mainly by looks, certain rejected young niceguys torment themselves in the gym, lifting tons of iron to build a better physique in the mistaken impression that this will finally enable them to finally break through the wall of eternal female rejection.

    Speaking as one of many who made this mistake when young: Guys, it doesn’t work. Women are drawn to money/power/status. Put most of your effort into increasing that. Even tall, handsome, fit men are regularly rejected if they don’t telegraph status.

    Oh, with a good physique, you may get offers for one-night stands…and if you’re really lucky, some of those offers will actually come from females… but if you want to get married and have a family, the money/power/status equation is the one you need to solve. Once you’ve done that, then, “bodily exercise profiteth a little”. Till then, it’s a waste unless you’re doing it for your own health or enjoyment. .

  49. van Rooinek says:

    finally… :-)

  50. Cane Caldo says:

    The fact is that gallantry is not dead. Men still want to indulge women. The problem is that most women have turned themselves into men, and call it being equal; perhaps rightfully. Where did the gallantry go? Back there; where women left it.

    @Original Trouble

    Basically, I wanted to be treated like an equal by my future partner. If I want a guy to treat me like an equal, I have to be equal, including assuming the responsibilities and obligations of equality. [...] This is something I’ve been saying to my female friends in my age group for quite a while now. We wanted to be equal on the job, that has spillover on the dating world. You want the same pay, same opportunity, same power as a man, you should be prepared to pay for dating just like a man does.

    How enlightened! Unfortunately, most men don’t want an equal; evidenced by the fact that men want to pay for a younger, less-used, woman (that pesky gallantry). Some men say they do, but we know that’s not really true.

    Interesting name, by the way.

  51. bskillet81 says:

    Men were created by God with the desire for a help-mate, not an “equal.”

  52. umm ben bernanke hand delivers bucetloads bucketlodes of fiat dollarz to womenz
    while his partners seize a man’s assettss via the taxes inflation taxes diviorce lawyrrs alimonies child supports
    seizing a man’s assetts after having buttckciokced his future wife’s ass
    and taped it sectrely
    in a sectiev taping
    of buttehxt whence she was
    deousled and ebenrnakified.
    so why should a man pay twice for that which he already paoid for via da inflation taxex zlzozozo

    http://www.cafepress.com/greatbooksformen.584218500

    lzozozoozzoloz

  53. Feminist Hater says:

    Interesting name, by the way.

    “Nothing but Trouble” more like it…

  54. van Rooinek says:

    GreatBooks….. your confused style and your lewdness, detract from the valid points that you make. Especially the endless comments about butt$#*… Sodomy is an abomination, even if heterosexual, and I for one prefer that it not even be mentioned.

  55. Feminist Hater says:

    VR, it’s his modus operandi, not much you can do about it I’m afraid.

  56. greyghost says:

    Then he said she should have an affair with someone else and say it was their child…

    You have to have some serious gina tingling alpha dick or most likely one gina tingled pussy on your hands to even pull that off in a conversation. But that is one way for a player to pass a buck on to another mo fo.

  57. CL says:

    @ RTP

    I think they’re just upset that the only men they can get attention from are the men who can’t attract younger women.

    I was saying something like this to 7man recently regarding a post on Athol’s forum from a 55 year-old woman wanting to be a “MILF” (a “GILF”* might be more like it, except that is a non-existent entity).

    She described the kind of man she wants and it really is a catch-22, because the kind of man a woman like this wants could attract someone much younger. A couple of the men said so, but she only took the hamster food offered about one guy’s 51 year-old wife being “smoking hot” or something (doubtful really). The ones she can attract – 10 years older, which was my (rejected) suggestion – she Does. Not. Want. and is quite critical of them.

    If this is the attitude, and they refuse to adjust their expectations, they get what they earn with their own contempt and bitterness. The way some women talk about older men is beyond rude.

    *Grandmother…

  58. ar10308 says:

    He’s like South Park; simultaneously brilliant and disgusting.

  59. van Rooinek says:

    “GreatBooks….. your confused style and your lewdness, detract from the valid points that you make. Especially the endless comments about butt$#*… Sodomy is an abomination, even if heterosexual, and I for one prefer that it not even be mentioned.”

    Yes, I agree.

    So why do all the modern Christians allow and exalt sodomy in their churches? Technically speaking, sodomy includes blowjobs, handjobs, and “heavy petting,” which churches embrace and sanctify these days.

    When was the last time a Christian Book came out lamenting the desouling and debauching of our culture and currency (Dante placed the counterfeiters in the same level of hell as the sodomites), of our women–our wives and daughters?

    My style is fairly plain, when compared to the confused, contradictory style and lewdness of the modern church, which exalts divorce, debauchery, sodomy, theft via the inflation tax, marxist feminism, and even butthext. lzozozozozozlzoz

  60. Just1X says:

    “Even though the average female salary in the UK is a third less than the average male salary”

    OH NOES!! Oh woe is she

    Now women in the UK earn 66.6p in the UKP (£)!

    Will somebody tell the other feminists that they’ve been fooling themselves about the 77cents on the $ schtick?

  61. P Ray says:

    @Anonymous Reader
    Plus, reading between the lines of her CV she’s hopped jobs a lot, and very likely hopped men in the process.
    Nice catch. Men sometimes assume that the reason a woman switches jobs is because she gets paid more … when it could also be it puts her in the space of the guy that gives her gina tingles.
    Maybe that’s one reason why many women like the hospitality and F&B industries:
    The chance to meet a wealthy actor, hotelier or magnate.
    They don’t spend much time with the busboys or waiters, as I’m sure you’ve seen.

  62. “ar10308 says:
    July 24, 2012 at 12:39 pm

    He’s like South Park; simultaneously brilliant and disgusting.”

    Actually I am the exact opposite of Southpark.

    southpark mocks christianity while hiding the fiat butthxting of the fed.

    i exalt christianity while shining a light on the fed and its desouling of our women

  63. TFH says:

    As I often say :

    Feminism, far from helping women, has instead exposed the massive inferiorities of women (moral, mental, intellectual) far more visibly than was ever possible before feminism..

    The traditional customs were created for a reason, and women benefited from them. Talk about biting the hand that conceals your many flaws….

  64. TFH says:

    no one seems to have taught them the idea of reciprocation.

    Now you see why a society where women have the right to vote devolves into a misandric police state after 3-4 generations of women voting.

    No exceptions.

  65. Lovekraft says:

    Ah if only these silly articles were subject to detailed confirmation/refutation.

    But we all know that that is the lunacy of feminism. It is a religion built on lies, unverifiable lies.

  66. Anonymous Reader says:

    CL
    If this is the attitude, and they refuse to adjust their expectations, they get what they earn with their own contempt and bitterness. The way some women talk about older men is beyond rude.

    Let me fix that for you.

    “If this is the attitude, and they refuse to adjust their expectations, they get what they earn with their own contempt and bitterness. The way most women talk about all men except for the Alphas they want to spread their legs for is beyond rude.”

    That’s more accurate.

  67. ahhh, I love this blog.

    you can’t discount yourself to “free” and then demand that people invest.

    It’s just a shame that there is much suffering ahead for many otherwise-decent women who have bought into the feminist-matrix lie without even knowing. Like kids today, they have no idea what life looks like without cell phones and internet, and they have no idea what life looks like without feminism.

    It was beautiful, on both counts.

    The suffragettes traded away everything, in exchange for nothing.

  68. CL says:

    @ AR

    Indeed, I suppose that is true. ::sigh::

  69. yes solomon

    the sad thing is that many women don’t realize they’ve been bernankified until too late

    teh feminist marxist berannkifiers are students of the bible, an dthey leverage genisis so as to profit from it.

    in it, eve succumbs to the temptation of the seprhephnt and then corrupts adam.

    so the debrebankfiersz saw that if they could tempt eve with lostas cockas spehpents, they could desoul her and get her to destory adam’s family, sezie his children and assets, or at least condemn her to spinsterhood and cats while she voted for their biggr bernanke cogovenrmemtz and maxrxist cuases

    women are not endowed withthe long-term, exalted moral conscience and moral vision which have makred all teh rgeater menz who sought peace ad prosperoty honor truth and justsicezzz lzlzzzz

    and so the bankers preyed on da womenz of our generation, often setctrely taping butthext without them knowing like tucker max rhymes with godlman sax does did en route to gettinghundredz of thousands of bernanke dollarz thrown at him, while the consevertive consertvative weekly standard exalte dhim as a six foot tall butthextual hero, repating his own lies about his heiagt height.

    “womenz womenz everywhere, and not a drop of a future wife to drink lzozlzozozooz” –the rhime of teh anciencent marinerz

  70. sunshinemary says:

    The way most women talk about all men except for the Alphas they want to spread their legs for is beyond rude.

    I could not agree more. I am amazed by the way women, especially younger women, will behave toward men without even common civility. Moxie = rudeness

  71. TFH says:

    OK, if more and more men are deciding not to spend much cash on women over 30…

    Then consider the results of the poll I put up at the start of July.

    While there definitely is some selection bias, that alone cannot explain the sheer landslide result of the poll. My site is not even a site dedicated solely to the androsphere, and feminists posted this poll at places like DailyKos, only to get far less net support than they expected.

    So on the Internet at least, awareness has become pretty high.

    The question is, when does this become true activism? And for real activism, I am looking to new people outside of those who call themselves ‘MRAs’ (since that group doesn’t really do any activism).

  72. TFH says:

    This chart from Rational Male about male vs. female SMV by age should be posted all over the place :

    https://rationalmale.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg

    It is likely to get women into apeshit mode almost as easily as the fertility chart.

  73. As a 43-year-old single male, I find this article tremendously encouraging. I had no idea there were so many 23-year-old hotties willing to date me. Yeah, I knew that if I applied some really tight
    game, I could probably go out and snag one now and then, but this writer makes it sound like there are so many such girls looking for older men that guys like me are spoiled for choice!

    This writer needs to spend some time looking up the meanings of words like “traditional” and “courting,” because they don’t fit the way they’re being used here. Courting doesn’t mean dinner dates and weekend sex trips, and traditional doesn’t mean the way you think it was in your grandmother’s day.

    A funny thing about this is that men used to be perfectly happy with paying for dates without any sexual quid pro quo. Fifty years ago, a guy gladly paid for his date, and though he might hope for some action, he didn’t expect any. But he *did* expect that his date would be pleasant and grateful and do her best to make sure *he* had a good time on the date. He also expected that she hadn’t been sleeping with the other guys she went out with, so if something serious developed
    out of their dating, he was getting a quality woman.

  74. TFH says:

    Anonymous Reader,

    Note again what is being held out as “the goods”.
    She looked very female, but she tried very deliberately to interest me in her material, masculine qualities. Very likely that’s all she knows to do.

    This is why Roosh and others keep saying that South America, Eastern Europe, and Asia are places where the typical American man would be shocked at how women behave, i.e. like women.

  75. Just1X says:

    @Sunshine (kind of, but not really disagreeing with your comment)

    “They also look for a well-resourced male who will invest in off-spring.”

    At the age these women are at, off-spring are off the table. They are still looking for the man to stump up full price when the woman won’t be able to deliver. All this pissing and moaning is just their reaction to discovering that they didn’t understand the SMP OR MMP. They’ve had 20-25 years of happily whoring it up on the men’s wallets, now they want to start pissing and moaning about it? TOO LATE, far, far too late.

    They should be grateful for the 40 years of fun they had before reality caught up, but gratitude isn’t in their nature.

  76. This chart from Rational Male about male vs. female SMV by age should be posted all over the place :
    —————————
    That chart needs to have the male age moved to the right, 50 the new 40….all that…..

  77. Tom Leykis says:

    The truth is a painful thing. Lol

  78. if the women of a generation are buttcocking and being buttcocked
    and a man states
    “the women of my generation are buttcocking and being buttcocked”
    is the man
    sinning
    by using the word
    buttcocking
    while the women are innocent
    as they buttcock
    in (relative) silence?

    lozozozozozzloz

  79. ukfred says:

    The telegraph also has article on thesexual habits of teenagers at http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/9403769/Lets-talk-about-teen-sex.html.

    But back to the manosphere, does anybody else see a long term expanding market in breeding cats?

  80. sunshinemary says:

    Just1X – I think a lot of them are in their 40s, at which time it is still technically possible to become pregnant – I don’t think these decisions are conscious, though.

  81. JoeS says:

    That’s very amusing they talk about the complexions of 25 year olds. A billionaire interested in complexion wouldn’t go for a 25 year old. Too old. The feminist ideas are so entrenched that the media never challenges them in ways that might seriously threaten them. A woman at 25 is still “young to be married” – this is the new ideology

  82. lavazza1891 says:

    TFH: So a 25 YO guy who hooks up with a 22 YO woman has overcome a 6,5 point SMV differential? Seems exaggerated.

  83. Feminist Hater says:

    It does a bit, but you have to remember something. A guy’s SMV includes stuff such as wealth, status and power, not purely his attractiveness and age like a woman’s. That’s why a man’s peak is much later and is pretty much flat lined in his twenties.

  84. @Cane:

    How enlightened! Unfortunately, most men don’t want an equal; evidenced by the fact that men want to pay for a younger, less-used, woman (that pesky gallantry). Some men say they do, but we know that’s not really true.

    Most men aren’t equal; thus, I wasn’t looking for most men. I was looking for for someone who was deserving of my fidelity, not someone playing games to hound dog women. Take money out of the equation, and you remove the tit-for-tat expectation of sexual favors for dinner checks.

  85. Feminist Hater says:

    Who is ‘someone deserving of your fidelity’? What measure do you use? Wealth? Power? Looks? Kindness? Just what exactly should men ‘be’ for a woman to give her fidelity to him.

    Consider that most young 20 year old guys don’t have wealth, money or power. The only things going for them would be their loyalty and kindness. Is that enough for today’s woman? I guess not because they don’t get married to young guys or at young ages…

  86. lavazza1891 says:

    FH: For me it looks more like MMV. An average 35 YO guy who has succeeded in remaing unmarried and childless has it REAL easy getting average 30-35 YO women by pretending that he’s interested in marriage and children and decent results with average 25-30 YO women.

  87. @feministhater:
    “Nothing but Trouble” more like it…

    A woman who lives her ethics is troublesome? Perhaps. I knew I had a lot to offer the right man (I am a good wife, good cook, good mother, financially stable, own my own home, and I am easy to get along with and it gives me pleasure to make my husband happy). I wanted commitment (marriage and lifetime fidelity) and I took the search for that seriously. I found a man I respect, a man that I knew would be a good leader in our home, and we were recently married. We have a variation of the Athol Kay “Captain and First Officer” relationship (my husband is a commander in the Navy, so we jokingly refer to it as Commander/XO).

    I always liked how Dr. Laura summed it up when talking about women who live out their ethical standards: a bitch is really “a babe in total control of herself.”

  88. ybm says:

    Feminist Hater says:
    July 24, 2012 at 3:47 pm

    You should know by now that the women who comment on this blog are indeed ‘those girls’ female supremacists, man haters, carousel riders, and devoted to their own ego. You waste your time by engaging them.

  89. P Ray says:

    @Original Trouble
    Take money out of the equation, and you remove the tit-for-tat expectation of sexual favors for dinner checks.
    Men are looking for exactly those types of women.
    Which is why women are complaining – they’re not interested in most men … only the 20% they find attractive.
    Those guys … can even get the girl to carry a child to term, and shake down other men via welfare, to pay for it.
    Very impressive indeed. ::)
    But not very conducive for most men to be invested in such women.

  90. A♠ says:

    @GBFM – July 24, 2012 at 10:53 am -

    +1

    Brilliant observation.

  91. Cat says:

    American women love the genitals of donkeys and horses. They crave the cum of losers.

  92. P Ray says:

    Dr. Laura summed it up when talking about women who live out their ethical standards: a bitch is really “a babe in total control of herself.”
    You can totally see that in Dr. Laura’s nudie pics. Total control! :)

  93. Who is ‘someone deserving of your fidelity’? What measure do you use? Wealth? Power? Looks? Kindness? Just what exactly should men ‘be’ for a woman to give her fidelity to him.

    Be a respectable guy who lives your ethics. My husband is not wealthy or powerful. I think he’s really handsome, but probably most would consider him average. He is intelligent, ethical, kind, funny, and decent. He’s a good leader. He’s the kind of guy that other guys would want to follow into battle, because he never loses his head. And, he keeps me from losing mine. :)

    Consider that most young 20 year old guys don’t have wealth, money or power. The only things going for them would be their loyalty and kindness. Is that enough for today’s woman? I guess not because they don’t get married to young guys or at young ages…

    I’m 46, he’s 44. We are not spring chickens. He never met a girl he wanted to marry; I married my sunday school teacher, who cheated on me several times. Loyalty, integrity and kindness mean everything to me.

    Do they mean everything to every girl? I’m sure they don’t. I’m quite sure there are a ton of entitled princesses out there (of all ages) who want you to look a certain way and throw down big money on courtship. But, there are good women out there, in spite of that. You just have to look for them, and not get discouraged. Just like I had to believe that there were good men out there who weren’t cheating assholes…and there are.

  94. Cat says:

    Notice to American men; When wifey orders you to take out the garbage just say:

    I’zzs sorry boss Izzz the yard slave and not the house slave.

    Just be good little uncle tims now ya here.

  95. @P Ray:

    But not very conducive for most men to be invested in such women.

    I would never say that a man should invest much in initial meetings with a woman. Do coffee or lunch, and ask her if she wants to split the check. There are a lot of women out there who are just looking for a free ride. If a woman offers to pay, take her up on it, as a litmus test. If she gets miffed, you’ve gained some insight into her character.

    I think women in my age group (mid 40s) who are serious about dating (and not just for riding on the happy sex carousel) ought to be willing to pay. It’s hardly fair to men to expect them to bear all of the costs of courtship, particularly when most of us are in similar earnings brackets.

    It does amuse me to hear women who’ve benefitted in every way financially from equality pitching a bitch fit about men not wanting to subsidize them in the dating realm. Those are the same women who are a real pain in the ass on the job, I’ve often found.

  96. P Ray says:

    But, there are good women out there, in spite of that. You just have to look for them, and not get discouraged.

    Bear in mind that other men are looking for those same women, and some women tell lies about the kind of relationship they want, depending on the man they’re with.

    It also seems that women have a chronic disability to notice good men or ask men out.
    Is there an entry for that in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders?

    I’m sure the percentage of women interested in a relationship with a single Channing Tatum, are much higher than that of those who are interested in a relationship with a single Rainn Wilson.

    But again, I observe that the women telling men to stump up
    … are the women in an existing relationship, or “past it” according to other men.
    Maybe there’s a theory in there somewhere.

  97. Feminist Hater says:

    I’ll stick to a simple guide line. The only woman deserving of fidelity is a chaste woman who is faithful, loving, caring, below the age of 24 who submits to her husband. Wow, so simple, from the Bible too…

  98. gdgm+ says:

    @Samuel Solomon, July 24, 2012 at 2:10 pm

    Re: the _Jezebel_ article you referenced, you may have missed the sidebar to the right. Holmes now has groupies: Disturbing: Women on Twitter Think James Holmes Is ‘Hot,’ ‘Sexy,’ ‘Cute’

  99. ybm says:

    If you have even a passing interest in the idea of the ‘seduction of cruelty’ look into Freud’s best work (in my opinion) Civilization and Its Discontents.

  100. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi there. I haven’t commented here in a long time because my husband underwent a fairly serious illness over the first few months of the year, and everything else kind of went out the window. I want to offer a sincere apology to those of you with whom I suddenly lost touch. :( He’s fine now, but I feel terrible for abandoning email correspondences with some of you.

    With regard to the topic of the post: I can’t take seriously the idea that it’s a “feminist nightmare” to have to split the check! Splitting the check or paying for the next date is clearly the better way to go if you’re a feminist-minded woman. First, there is more dignity in paying your own way. Second, it shows the man that you value HIM and his company, not just his pocketbook. And isn’t the point of dating to make the other person feel good? Third, if you’re paying, it allows you to make some decisions as to where to go or what to do on the date, which sets up an egalitarian dynamic from the outset.

    I’m a big fan of trading off. So the asker pays for the first date, but then the askee insists on paying for the second date. That way, you don’t get balled up in unromantic discussions of how much each person owes. It’s a more gracious way to go. Of course, if you don’t think you want to see the man again, then you insist on splitting the check.

    [D: Welcome back. Good to hear that your husband is doing well now.]

  101. GKChesterton says:

    @Professor Hale,
    This is just one more thing that makes them unsuitable as wives. They are not thinking like they want to be a part of a financial partnership that benefits someone else.

    Yes. Being “poor” and being a wife is no problem. You are working for the maintenance of a third party. Being “poor” and being a forty year old single woman is a travesty. What were you spending the money on? We can at that point judge you the same as we would judge a loafing man.

    @Dalrock,

    Mayor of London Boris? That’s a hoot. She’s probably in shock. She’s not very amazing now but she’s post-40. At twenty she was probably a catch.

    @Cane

    The fact is that gallantry is not dead. Men still want to indulge women. The problem is that most women have turned themselves into men, and call it being equal; perhaps rightfully. Where did the gallantry go? Back there; where women left it.

    Absolutely. Chivalry won’t die because men will keep it going. We just have to be careful not to be false knights (I really hate “White Knight” which is a beautiful classic image). I remember a girl I was interested in back in HS. She had the gall to complain to her brother about some of the door opening and like things that I did. The message was communicated back to her that I did that for all women and she need not worry about it anymore as I wasn’t sure she deserved it. I chuckle to this day at the husband she eventually got.

  102. Iowa Jim says:

    Lots of good comments here; in fact, there’s something of value in every one.

    My own contribution is that one of the things that I see here is women who think that they, or other women, are the proper judges of their attractiveness. Nobody is a good judge of his attractiveness to the opposite sex, and it is rare for members of the same sex to be good judges of somebody’s attractiveness to the opposite sex. Ladies, you can’t judge how attractive you, or other women, are to men, nor can men judge how attractive another man is to women (except, in either case, by watching the behavior of the opposite sex). Don’t tell me that you don’t know why men aren’t attracted to this “beautiful” woman; if men aren’t attracted to here, she isn’t beautiful, and you aren’t going to change that.

  103. 1111 says:

    It is interesting to note the apex thinking that older women cannot be in relationships because they cannot pay half the share of expensive dinners and weekend trips.

  104. GKChesterton says:

    @Cane,

    BTW an older female friend just sent this and its a good read:
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2012/07/23/aurora_dark_knight_shooting_the_men_protected_the_women.html

    The author is right. That instinct is in our DNA. I’d love to hear more about the first wife. My guess is I’d hate her.

  105. BlackCat says:

    She looked very female, but she tried very deliberately to interest me in her material, masculine qualities.

    A thing is not complemented by itself.
    The masculine is drawn toward the feminine.
    The feminine is drawn toward the masculine.
    Like moths to a flame.
    Biology uber alles.

  106. Lad says:

    @Original Trouble

    I think part of the unwillingness to pay comes from the unwillingness to take the initiative to arrange the date and set up the invitation in the first place. This sets up the man to play the “host” role more often than not, and paying for a drink or two is a fairly reasonable expectation. Where the vibe is less of a date and more of a mutual meet-up, it’s easier to split the bill. Once I had a woman invite me kayaking. She did the planning, arranged the details, and took care of costs (which were minimal). That was a 3rd date and she was an engineer. I think that’s the only time I’ve had a woman ask me out if we hadn’t had sex yet.

    The only other cases I have heard about women taking the initiative have always been girls arranging entertainment for themselves and trying to sucker the guy into paying for it.

  107. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    ” I’d be prepared to invest a lot of money on a woman under 30. There’s more mileage there and you feel good having her on your arm. Why would I spend money to have a 40-year-old middle-ranking executive on my arm instead? And if she is on my arm, she’d better pull her weight financially.”

    “If you are playing the boyfriend/girlfriend game there is no commitment there, only one or both people keeping their options open.”

    I completely agree. Especially the younger women need to keep their options open for potential fathers of their future childen.

    Many of these old guys already have grown children and do not want to start the circus all over again. A dynamic, good looking 29 year old friend of mine was dating a 44 year old and I shockingly asked her why she’s dating so old. Her strange response, “I know! Ive never been attracted to old men before but the scent of a man is what attracts me and this one smells really good. Blame it on the pheromones.”

    I asked her, “but you want kids, right? She responded, “yes and he doesn’t because he’s already gone through that (2 kids in college), plus he’s a full generation ahead of me and we argue about a lot of things. We break up every other week but always get back together”

    I told her “forget this old fogie who doesn’t want kids. Girl you are in the state with the hottest youngest most fertile men, get yourself knocked up before 30. If you stay with him you will reach 40 with no children and he will be 55 on Viagra”

    Mind you, at the time of this conversation they had been living together for a year Of course she is no longer living with him and is now dating a handsome young man her own age who doesn’t have any baggage (never married, no kids) and wants to build a family.

    For a young woman who wants to have children there is absolutely no reason to date old divorced men with baggage (grown kids). 9 times out of 10 these men do not want to start a 2nd (or 3rd!) family.

    Like the man above says, they want someone who “feels good on their arm” not a baby who feels heavy on their back.

    Young ladies, take heed!

  108. Opus says:

    Where I live there is a new-formed Dating Agency (not on-line dating) where for the sum of Five Hundred and Ten Pounds sterling [about $750] you are guaranteed six dates over a period of twenty-four months with six different ladies (and vice versa). You are vetted (and seemingly more thoroughly than the females – clearly the proprietor gets first dibs on the merchandise) and the agency’s web-site stresses that the terms and conditions mitigate against male serial-daters, thus guaranteeing male-commitment – yet with six guaranteed dates surely that is what they are setting up for? The idea that women are commitment phobic is not even considered as a possibility – though of course they also get six different dates. There are links to various services to make one ‘datable’ – to do with skin, body language, the right motor-car which seems to have something to do with a young Sean Connery, and so on. There are four brief bios of candidates. These are two females aged 49 (‘no way looks her age’) and 50 (‘active’ and ‘a natural hostess’). The two men chosen are 37 (‘looking to have a family’ with ‘woman up to 38′) and 54 (seeking a fun lady).They all have their own businesses! A poll is presently taking place where you tick which, as a parent, is the biggest difficulty in dating and amongst the possibilities are ‘trouble with the ex’ and ‘I feel unattractive’ and no less than four other options with the word ‘kids’ – this is clearly aimed at the women and I am guessing there are more female candidates than male, indeed the entire site seems female-centric rather than male-friendly. Nowhere does it say anything about paying for dates, nor for that matter about reciprocal services, although it claims to offer dignity, passion and discretion.

    I’d like to be able to report back as to what it is like, but unfortunately I fell out with the proprietor – a forty something woman with a crooked smile and a low cut dress, to judge from her photo (a few months back) when she approached me on Twitter and I told her via a Tweet or two exactly what I thought of her scam (I am doubting whether this will even last the 24 months) or should I say to give her the benefit of my doubt, scheme, for she was not well-pleased when I referred to her ladies as washed-up cat-herders. I doubt that she will be linking to the Torygraph article.

  109. Jason says:

    Thanks for the morning read Dalrock it was entertaining.

    “I’m not this year’s top model, but if men who aren’t exactly George Clooney are only willing to be generous with 23-year-old sexpots, they’re also the long-term losers.”

    I loved this line, made me chuckle. Silly woman. I guess the woman in this article need a lesson in basic economics, supply and demand and the like. The foolishness of it all is that in most instances they could probably find a husband if they were realistic about what they wanted versus what they could get, and being prepared to settle for what they can get.

    Of course, if they did that, they wouldn’t come of as the spoiled entitlement princesses they do come off as. Still they would be better off for it, even if we couldn’t all have such articles in indulge our desire for schadenfreude on.

  110. If I were looking for a wife again I would not be interested in a much younger women. There is an element of truth in this kind of article. You might want a woman with a bit of maturity, who is not too young and silly, and who can converse intelligently. It would feel foolish to be of completely different generations. Some men, I am one, don’t mind a few years on a woman.

    What would put me off the quoted females is their bad attitudes.

  111. CL says:

    Strawberry Fields Forever either has some idiotic friends or that whole comment of hers is bogus. And what does “A dynamic, good looking 29 year old friend of mine” even mean? Dynamic? Who describes people that way? It’s meaningless.

  112. CL says:

    Also, funny how an 11 year age gap magically turns into a 15 year one over time! LOL

  113. CL says:

    Ah crap, I misread the ages as 29 and 40. Never mind. D’oh!

  114. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    “Some men do the reverse projection. Since men are drawn mainly by looks, certain rejected young niceguys torment themselves in the gym, lifting tons of iron to build a better physique in the mistaken impression that this will finally enable them to finally break through the wall of eternal female rejection.

    Speaking as one of many who made this mistake when young: Guys, it doesn’t work. Women are drawn to money/power/status. Put most of your effort into increasing that. Even tall, handsome, fit men are regularly rejected if they don’t telegraph status. ”

    Dunno. The young hot surfer dudes where I live get plenty of punani, and they girls fight over them like mad to become the girlfriend. They don’t have money or power or status in mainstream society. Many of them live like bums, couch surfing, sleeping on the beach, etc. But they are very healthy and young, and all around nice, chilled out guys.

  115. ybm says:

    I find people who always have an anecdote for everything exhausting. They prattle on about their lives endlessly and always having a rationalization for everything. Really, there are better ways to pump up ones ego than commenting on blogs. Some local grocery clerk can give you all the face-to-face pretend interest you can handle.

  116. CL says:

    The young hot surfer dudes where I live get plenty of punani, and they girls fight over them like mad to become the girlfriend. They don’t have money or power or status in mainstream society.

    Are you for real? Come on, surely you know the appeal of “the rebel” – especially for immature women – even if it’s a lame rebel. And surfers generally have good physiques and a nice tan. You even describe them as “hot” for heaven’s sake.

    It’s still high social status in its own way and amongst a certain set, and they evidently have good Game. All you’re doing is proving the point you are trying to refute.

  117. Feminist Hater says:

    Is SBFF trying to prove to us that women really are that ‘pathetic’? She’s doing a mightily great job of proving why women aren’t worth the effort, at least not where she comes from…

  118. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    “I’m not this year’s top model, but if men who aren’t exactly George Clooney are only willing to be generous with 23-year-old sexpots, they’re also the long-term losers.”

    Silly woman indeed. Its the 23 year old sexpots who are the longterm losers. 9 times out of 10 old men with baggage (divorce, kids) do not want to wash, rinse and repeat. They want what the old man honestly said, “someone who feels (looks) good on our arm” not crying babies on their backs.

    Despite their baggage, old men with money might be fun to casually date for a while, get wined and dined, taken on the yacht, trips to Aruba, etc sure! And for women who don’t want kids they can long term with them no problem, but for young women who want to have kids by a certain stage in life, there’s no point in spending more than a couple of months with such people. Its a waste of time while the biological clock ticks away.

  119. ybm says:

    Feminist Hater says:
    July 24, 2012 at 6:01 pm

    Not on purpose anyway. Just a troll.

  120. 7man says:

    @Strawberry Fields Forever
    The fact that women get tingles for young studs is not news. These are not the kind of men most women will settle down with. Those studs are like ponies she rides on the carousel before she pretends those years didn’t happen and looks for a nice guy to raise and provide for the children she intends to have (or already has).

    A woman that acts on those tingles gives nary a thought to squandering her fertile years and giving her body (for free) to young studs to experience wanton exciting sex, but her future beta nice guy husband must pay a high price by committing to provide for her in perpetuity (even post divorce).

    After all she would be a slut if she married a man that didn’t commit to her by investing in her and paying her price.

  121. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    ” And surfers generally have good physiques and a nice tan. You even describe them as “hot” for heaven’s sake. ”

    Sure did! My comment was in response to someone who wrote, “Since men are drawn mainly by looks, certain rejected young niceguys torment themselves in the gym, lifting tons of iron to build a better physique in the mistaken impression that this will finally enable them to finally break through the wall of eternal female rejection.

    Speaking as one of many who made this mistake when young: Guys, it doesn’t work.”

    CL and I both know it does work.

  122. Feminist Hater says:

    I think we’ve hit a nerve with her. She can’t believe they’re still men that think like this. Why haven’t we moved on into the new age? She’s having a ‘field’ day and I’m just enjoying in thoroughly as I have zero skin in the game.

    So, SBFF, please continue. I’m going to bed now, but when I have my lunch break tomorrow I expect a full diatribe of hamster rationalisations for which to read. I eagerly await.

  123. ybm says:

    Feminist Hater says:
    July 24, 2012 at 6:11 pm

    Its the same canard we hear a dozen times over every month on this blog. Some ‘reformed’ slut who rode every bartender in town stops by to lecture us about how ‘thats just the way it is’ and to man-up an accept it because they managed to trick a poor, pathetic, wimp into marrying them after the carousel kicked them off.

    Nothing new under the sun, the names change but the stories stay the same. With nary a thought that marriage is dying exactly because of sluts like them. I welcome the death of marriage as it liberates men from female supremacy in domestic life, others do not.

  124. “Punani”. An Indian expression.

  125. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    “A woman that acts on those tingles gives nary a thought to squandering her fertile years and giving her body (for free) to young studs to experience wanton exciting sex”

    Agree. That’s why I told my young friend to ditch her old divorced “boyfriend” with baggage who did not want to have kids and find herself a nice young never married no baggage man her own age. She was 29 herself so the clock is ticking. He was interested in what the man said, “someone who feels (looks) good on my arm”, not in getting married and building a family, he already did that at least once before, if not twice.

    Young women who desire children are wasting their time getting seriously involved with old divorced dudes. A few months of non-serious dating, fine, but my friend actually MOVED IN with the man. Sure that saved her a year’s rent, but she crossed her 30th b-day with him when she could have been building a relationship with a nice young never married beta man with no baggage. She could be a mom by now, but she’s not. The good news is she recently did meet a nice young man her own age so maybe she will be a mom soon.

  126. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    “Punani”. An Indian expression.

    Actually its what my black neighbors say. Never knew it was Indian but that would make sense, since one of them does have a mom from the West Indies.

  127. Keoni Galt says:

    Yes, I agree.

    So why do all the modern Christians allow and exalt sodomy in their churches? Technically speaking, sodomy includes blowjobs, handjobs, and “heavy petting,” which churches embrace and sanctify these days.

    When was the last time a Christian Book came out lamenting the desouling and debauching of our culture and currency (Dante placed the counterfeiters in the same level of hell as the sodomites), of our women–our wives and daughters?

    My style is fairly plain, when compared to the confused, contradictory style and lewdness of the modern church, which exalts divorce, debauchery, sodomy, theft via the inflation tax, marxist feminism, and even butthext. lzozozozozozlzoz

    Keep on, keeping on, GBFM! You do great work.

    lozlzolzolzol

  128. Strawberry Fields Forever says:

    FH, “I think we’ve hit a nerve with her. She can’t believe they’re still men that think like this. ”

    Think like what? That young women are more attractive than middle aged ones? Of course! I don’t blame the men, I’m saying the young women are the fools and end up losers for spending their most fertile years with old divorced men with baggage who are not interested in having children anymore because “been there done that”.

    If these young women don’t want kids then its ok. But if they do, they are squandering their eggs away foolishly.

  129. CL says:

    CL and I both know it does work.

    Puhleese. Don’t try to ride in on my coat tails missy.

  130. Dalrock says:

    @Original Trouble

    I always liked how Dr. Laura summed it up when talking about women who live out their ethical standards: a bitch is really “a babe in total control of herself.”

    It doesn’t sound like something Dr. Laura would say/write. I think you have her confused with someone else entirely.

  131. van Rooinek says:

    me: Some men do the reverse projection. Since men are drawn mainly by looks, certain rejected young niceguys torment themselves in the gym…. Guys, it doesn’t work

    SBFF: Dunno. The young hot surfer dudes where I live get plenty of punani….. CL and I both know it does work.

    You seem to have skipped part of what I wrote… Take note of these passages, which are directly derived from my own personal experiences:

    Even tall, handsome, fit men are regularly rejected if they don’t telegraph status.

    in other words, Game and/or Money > Looks. Lack of game and money, can totally negate good looks, at least in terms relationships….. continuing —

    with a good physique, you may get offers for one-night stands [SBFF's surfers got lots of punani, I don't doubt it]… but if you want to get married and have a family, the money/power/status equation is the one you need to solve

    To clarify, my goal, from my teenage years onward, was marriage. Not just punani.

  132. CL says:

    SBFF has got to be a fake, because this seems too tailored to the message here:

    Young women who desire children are wasting their time getting seriously involved with old divorced dudes. A few months of non-serious dating, fine, but my friend actually MOVED IN with the man. Sure that saved her a year’s rent, but she crossed her 30th b-day with him when she could have been building a relationship with a nice young never married beta man with no baggage. She could be a mom by now, but she’s not. The good news is she recently did meet a nice young man her own age so maybe she will be a mom soon.

    Translation: My friend has squandered her most fertile years being a shallow, dynamic gold digger and all I did was tell her to get off the carousel and find a beta schlub to have some kids with before it’s really too late. Aren’t I great? Guys?

  133. I used to listen to her daily between 1996-1999. I think she used it on one of her shows, perhaps adopted from Sherry Ardov. I may be wrong, but it struck me quite strongly at the time and stayed with me.

  134. Jason says:

    Just got through reading the article. Makes for an interesting read. Dalrock already got the main interesting points, but three that jumped out at me.

    “One woman I know who protested when her date, who had done all the romantic running, asked her to pay her half of the bill at an expensive London restaurant, received the response: “Do you want to go back in time and be some submissive little housewife?” Another was told, under similar circumstances, that her attitude “lacked modernity”. ”

    I thought this was interesting. Clearly she does expect him to treat her as if she is a “poor submissive housewife” with no financial independence when it comes to picking up the cheque. I assume she would get quite pissy if he tried to assume this was true in all areas. But what do you expect from entitlement princesses like this?

    “Men are making financial demands on women that they weren’t 10 years ago. This is partly due to the economy, but friction arises when women can’t meet these demands or don’t want to.”

    I wonder how many women “can’t meet these demands” vs how many simply “don’t want to”? What did you think would happen ladies? Guys are willing to invest in younger women with a chance at a future with them and even generally sacrifice to support her while she raises children and forgoes “career”. This isn’t a bad thing at all, but why these women expect the same standard to apply when they have chosen career over children is a mystery. I suppose it is just entitlement princess syndrome again.

    “In a development that is ominous for both sexes, more and more women are shunning men who require them to look like Sarah Jessica Parker and meekly pony up half the bill. Sally Hughes, an attractive 41-year-old doctor, faced a choice this summer. “I could either go to France and chill with old friends, or spend money I haven’t got and go to Italy with a man who expects me to be super-groomed and financially independent. The first cost £800. The latter around £3,000.” She decided on old friends and celibacy. ”

    As others, including Dalrock himself, have noted, I doubt anybody will care if they take themselves off the market. I think the part that annoys people, certainly myself, is that she is free to do whatever she likes, Pursue a man or spend time with friends. Whatever her finances allow and what ever she desires to do. What she isn’t entitled to do is piss and moan about how unfair it all is because the very predictable outcomes of her choices have come to pass. Sheesh, do whatever you like, but you made this bed, lie in it, don’t whine about it.

  135. There is something about Strawbs that doesn’t quite “gel”. It is like she is two different people.

  136. @P Ray:
    Bear in mind that other men are looking for those same women, and some women tell lies about the kind of relationship they want, depending on the man they’re with.

    I know that there are a lot of shitty people out there. Don’t let the assholes of the world ruin you.

    It also seems that women have a chronic disability to notice good men or ask men out.
    Is there an entry for that in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders?

    When I was recently divorced, I used to say that there weren’t any good men out there at my age. What that really meant was that I didn’t know how to see them. When I fixed that problem, I found there actually were a lot of good men out there, and I ultimately met and married one. The issue was never the lack of good men. It was my impaired vision.

    If you’re saying that there are no good women out there in your age group who recognize good men, first off, that’s bollocks. I have an 18 year old daughter, and she’s made some pretty good dating decisions. She likes the smart/nice guys. She also has quite a few nice friends, and they are wired in a similar way. Perhaps they are outnumbered. Or, perhaps you can’t see the good girls because your focus is off.

  137. 7man says:

    @DC
    Maybe SBFF an pretender with a subversive agenda.
    The Gentleperson’s Guide To Forum Spies

  138. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hmmm, I was thinking about this some more. A lot of you here seem to resent the fact that many women still expect to be treated on dates. I don’t blame you a bit. But you guys are antifeminist. Soooo how would you take it if a woman said,”I’d like to take you out to dinner tomorrow, my treat.”
    Would that bother you? Wouldn’t you find that “emasculating”?

    I used to ask men out and pay for it quite a bit when I was in college and the early part of law school. This was 20 years ago. It was a delightful way of living out my feminist principles while bringing pleasure to men I found attractive. Win win all the way!!! I found northeastern American men very receptive to this approach. But the guy who was a student at the Citadel just could not wrap his mind around me asking him out or paying. And the British men I asked were noticeably uncomfortable to the point that I had to cave and let them pay or they would have been totally miserable about it, which was a pity because I felt deprived of the pleasure of playing host.

  139. ybm says:

    Nah, its the same thing that happens everywhere on the internet. Power-jockeying and ego reinforcement. Few people come to the internet to find NEW beliefs, the majority of people come to the internet to reinforce their beliefs.

    For women, as they are deeply jealous of the masculine traits they find attractive, try (and fail) to mimic the perceived behaviours of those status males they cream over oh so much. I say perceived behaviours because if men acted the way status-jockeying women do they would get punched in the face.The internet allows them to puff up their status for their own ego-reinforcement and retire to what is likely an unsatisfying real life with a beta boy wimp husband.

    The only person strawberry’s posts are directed at is herself. Pure ego-boosting behaviour, it is everywhere on the internet where women and low self-esteem men congregate.

  140. Doomed Harlot says:

    Oh, and I thought of another excellent reason for women to pay on dates. If you’re not willing to pay on a date, then you can’t really initiate the dating process. It would be totally bizarre to ask someone out and then expect him to pick up the check. But if you’re willing to pay, that means you’re free to ask out the guy ou like. You don’t have to sit around passively waiting for him to notice you, or hinting around. I find passively sitting around hoping to be noticed somewhat degrading, not to mention frustrating.

  141. @Lad:

    I think it’s a convenient excuse. I met my husband online. I didn’t sit around and wait for a good man to drop in my lap, I looked for him. I messaged him first, but I think he suggested that we meet.

    I think there are a lot of angry people (men and women) in my age group. Our society has undergone massive social changes, and some people are still reeling from them. I think a lot of women, in particular, haven’t figured out that those social changes have both benefits and a price tag. They want to have their cake and eat it, too.

    You can’t compete with men on the job, and then turn around and expect them to pick up the tab for everything. It’s ridiculous. I’ve been saying for years that those women were either going to change or get left behind. Seems I was correct.

  142. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot.

    I used to ask men out and pay for it quite a bit when I was in college and the early part of law school. This was 20 years ago. It was a delightful way of living out my feminist principles while bringing pleasure to men I found attractive. Win win all the way!!!

    Elsewhere you stated that you married the second man you ever kissed. How does that square with you regularly offering to pay for dates with men. Did you never kiss these men?

  143. Crank says:

    @strawberry fields
    “Think like what? That young women are more attractive than middle aged ones? Of course! I don’t blame the men, I’m saying the young women are the fools and end up losers for spending their most fertile years with old divorced men with baggage who are not interested in having children anymore because “been there done that”. ”

    Correct, but the irony is that many of the women in the article who complain about men preferring younger women were probably doing exactly that back in their twenties.

  144. ybm says:

    Dalrock says:
    July 24, 2012 at 7:12 pm

    Status jockeying, it is sadly ironic for the harlot that she posted that at the same time I was writing my post. Ironic as it reflected the exact thinking I was describing.

  145. hey dlarock lzozozo dalrocks!!

    pretty much every 30+ women’z article of consternation and confusion can be summed up with two questions:

    1) where have all da good menz gone?
    2) why is my butt sore?

    so i have made a thong for all of dem to wear on datez:
    http://www.cafepress.com/greatbooksformen.653757685

    zlzozozo

  146. Crank says:

    @dalrock

    “Elsewhere you stated that you married the second man you ever kissed. How does that square with you regularly offering to pay for dates with men. Did you never kiss these men?”

    Maybe she kissed them all (and then some), and then went back and married the second.

  147. Cane Caldo says:

    Nothing SFF has said yet has the ring of truth to it; or earnestness. Every sentence is carefully constructed to affect unaffectedness.

    Then there are the comments where she flat-out lies.

  148. Cane Caldo says:

    I’d heard that whores don’t kiss…

  149. P Ray says:

    If you’re saying that there are no good women out there in your age group who recognize good men, first off, that’s bollocks. I have an 18 year old daughter, and she’s made some pretty good dating decisions. She likes the smart/nice guys. She also has quite a few nice friends, and they are wired in a similar way. Perhaps they are outnumbered. Or, perhaps you can’t see the good girls because your focus is off.
    If she’s had to make dating DECISIONS means she can’t decide which guy to be with … hence, carousel rider.
    She likes the smart/nice guys.
    But not enough to stick with one for the long haul.
    She also has quite a few nice friends, and they are wired in a similar way.
    And you know this how? ‘Cause teenaged girls tell their mothers everything about who they have sex with and where they got stuck in…
    Or, perhaps you can’t see the good girls because your focus is off.
    Remember, the ugly girls are really nice … yeah right.

    Original Trouble … the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
    There is a very good chance your daughter will repeat your mistakes.

  150. van Rooinek says:

    Original Troube: I used to say that there weren’t any good men out there at my age. What that really meant was that I didn’t know how to see them. When I fixed that problem, I found there actually were a lot of good men out there, and I ultimately met and married one. The issue was never the lack of good men. It was my impaired vision.

    The entire Manosphere is on the edge of its collective seat, waiting for you to elaborate: HOW did you FIX that problem?

  151. sunshinemary says:

    For women, as they are deeply jealous of the masculine traits they find attractive, try (and fail) to mimic the perceived behaviours of those status males they cream over oh so much.

    I think this is true. I think women try to ape men in many areas because of jealousy. I’ve experienced that feeling. It feels yucky and makes you want to do something bad – I can’t put it into any more highbrow terms than that. This is why I still assert that a lot of bad female behavior is based on the desire to rebel and usurp authority and power.

  152. Mackrochip says:

    For what its worth I know a number of younger people dating older ones and the marriage and kids topic is one of much contention. May-December, even May-September relationships have to confront this sooner or later and it often doesn’t bode well when they do.

  153. 7Man, thanks. My mother told me last night that I should think about a late-life career in security issues! Anyway, that link looks fascinating.

    My 18 year old talks to me, not her mum, about relationship issues. She knows my views, and affects to find them reactionary and horrifying, but she still listens. Her boyfriend seems nice and respectful. But I don’t trust him, of course. I was his age once.

  154. Cane, I saw a doco once on whores. One client, who seemed a nice young man, was shown interviewing them for their services. He asked each girl, “do you kiss?” Some would. Some wouldn’t.

  155. If she’s had to make dating DECISIONS means she can’t decide which guy to be with … hence, carousel rider.

    She’s 18, dude. She’s dated boys. That’s what high school girls do. Are you implying that high school girls fuck every boy they go on a date with?

    She likes the smart/nice guys.
    But not enough to stick with one for the long haul.

    You think she should marry the boy that she dated for six months when she was 16? Are you listening to yourself?

    She also has quite a few nice friends, and they are wired in a similar way.
    And you know this how? ‘Cause teenaged girls tell their mothers everything about who they have sex with and where they got stuck in…
    Or, perhaps you can’t see the good girls because your focus is off.
    Remember, the ugly girls are really nice … yeah right.

    Original Trouble … the apple doesn’t fall far from the tree.
    There is a very good chance your daughter will repeat your mistakes.

    Classy. Nothing I’ve posted would give the impression that my daughter is a whore. She is a beautiful wholesome girl with good values, good grades, and a sweet personality. Those are fighting words where I live.

    What girl would want a guy like you, who is tainted with such ugliness? YOU are your biggest problem.

  156. Cane Caldo says:

    @DC

    Since you brought her and her boyfriend up, do you think there is a real chance she’ll end up as the sort of girl you’d demand for yourself?

    I’d have asked in an email, if you had one.

  157. The entire Manosphere is on the edge of its collective seat, waiting for you to elaborate: HOW did you FIX that problem?

    All sarcasm aside, I realized that my problems were mostly of my own creation. I chose a bad guy, I married him, and my circumstances were of my own choosing. I took responsibility for those choices, actions, and circumstances, and got a close male friend to coach me on identifying good men. I went to therapy and dealt with some of the abuse issues I experienced when growing up. It helped a lot.

    Many of us have made mistakes in our lives. I believe in redemption. At some point, the best you can do is to suck it up and try to live in a different, better way.

  158. Cane, yes.

    I have told her I want her to remain chaste.

    My wife and I, and my daughter and her boyfriend, are “good-looking nerds”. We tend to be a bit slow socially and sexually, focussing more on the life of the mind and academic work.

    We are all Catholics of some kind too.

  159. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi Dalrock,

    Wow. Good memory! I dated a lot in college and the start of law school, and was very outgoing about asking men out. And no, never kissed any of them other than the two men I mentioned. To me, kissing is so intense that I knew in my case it would inevitably lead to sex, and I was always afraid that sex would lead to a relationship I might not want. Or that, if it didn’t, the mans feelings would be hurt. That may sound silly, but that was my worry! So I had a great time with a lot of great men, but was very conservative about actual physical contact. A foolish choice I think because some of the men’s feelings got hurt anyway. And I missed out on a lot of great sex!

    Oddly, I never worried about being dumped myself, not because I’m some great catch but because I figured I could deal with that better than hurting someone

  160. P Ray says:

    @Original Trouble:
    What girl would want a guy like you, who is tainted with such ugliness? YOU are your biggest problem.
    (Richard’s Rebuttal): If women didn’t like men who were violent or hated women … then all the violence in domestic/intimate partner relationships … would be the fault of women.
    As you prove, Original Trouble! :)
    P.S. Answer van Rooinek’s question:
    When I fixed that problem, I found there actually were a lot of good men out there, and I ultimately met and married one. The issue was never the lack of good men. It was my impaired vision.

    The entire Manosphere is on the edge of its collective seat, waiting for you to elaborate: HOW did you FIX that problem?

  161. ybm says:

    sunshinemary says:
    July 24, 2012 at 7:39 pm

    Karen Horney would be right up your alley. From a psychoanalytic standpoint this has its roots in Jungian Electra Complex. Little girls develop a fixation on their father’s power over their mother very early in their development.

    When competition for the opposite-sex parent is unresolved (such as in the case of modern father-absent upbringings or a mother who has multiple sex partners during the girls critical development) it becomes a desire to control the men completely, not only to control and direct their power.

    That is why Neo-Freudians dropped the term ‘penis envy’ as it does not reflect the entire story, ‘power envy’ is a better description.

  162. P Ray says:

    Saw your reply, original trouble.
    Save some redemption for me, eh? Or are you all out of compassion today? :)

  163. P Ray says:

    @Original Trouble:
    She is a beautiful wholesome girl with good values, good grades, and a sweet personality. Those are fighting words where I live.
    According to her mom. Who has chosen so wisely in the past…

  164. ybm says:

    “father’s power over their mother” is not correct, they become fixated on the fathers power, and jealous of their mothers ability to control it.

  165. sunshinemary says:

    The term “power envy” really makes it so much clearer to me. That is exactly how I have experienced it. I had to read Freud in college of course, but it didn’t make an impression on me at that time. It explains a lot to me of the behavior I see in modern women. We’ve given away the place we truly have power, in the home, and traded it for a pretend power, aping men. But it’s more than that, too, I think. There is a darker feeling to it.

    I don’t know Karen Horney’s work.

  166. sunshinemary says:

    DH wrote: And I missed out on a lot of great sex!

    If you chose not to be sexually active and remain chaste, then you are to be commended. Why would you regret that?

  167. ybm says:

    Doomed Harlot says:
    July 24, 2012 at 7:55 pm

    Ha, if this is true!

    That’s the best your women have to offer you guys. A girl who dates a ton of men ‘lets’ them pay for her even after asking THEM out (while blaming them for ‘making’ her let them pay) and they don’t even get a kiss out of it. This kind of thing doesn’t exist anywhere outside of the Anglosphere. We call them mignotta!

  168. P Ray says:

    ^ I was thinking the same thing. How does pre-marital sex grant an advantage to a girl?

  169. P Ray says:

    @ybm:
    Women should pay half – a mans’ presence should count for that, and women are equal to men as they keep telling us.

  170. Cane Caldo says:

    Many of us have made mistakes in our lives. I believe in redemption. At some point, the best you can do is to suck it up and try to live in a different, better way

    So you choose her boyfriends? Does she date only with the intent to marry? Does she date only men from families you know well, and are known well by your community?

    In what way are you doing things different, better, now?

  171. Doomed Harlot says:

    I don’t really have any objection to the notion that feminist women want the same power and status men have traditionally held. I do!. I suppose you can use words like “envy” to make it sound like some petty desire, but to me, it’s always been about wanting to be treated fairly and to have equal dignity. That belief in my right to earn power and status on the same basis as men doesn’t mean I don’t also embrace other values like love, kindness, mission effectiveness, hard work, charity, servant leadership, and all sorts of other good things. I am just opposed to being a second class citizen.

  172. In honour of GBFM, here is a topical poem:

    Feminist Hater is an upstanding Boer
    He wants a good girl, not a whore.

    Lozzloolzzloozll.

  173. ybm says:

    Doomed Harlot says:
    July 24, 2012 at 8:17 pm

    You are a hypocrite. What you desire is not a man’s power and status, you simply want control. A man’s power does not derive from control, he has no agency to control anything. What you desire is the tools without the manual, the words without the meaning, the action without the thought.

    In essence you want it all, a recipe for a whole host of mental issues and demonstrably impossible. That you would infect others with your warped beliefs is symptomatic of the deep seated resentment you older women have on the young. Destroy them out of petty jealousy.

    You are a female supremacist, and I will identify your lot whenever I am exposed to your vile kind.

  174. Doomed Harlot says:

    Sunshinemary,

    Thank you for your commendation on my relative chastity (only one sexual partner before marriage, followed by more than 15 years of monogamy with my husband). I regret not sleeping around more when I was younger because I think I missed chances with a lot of great men to give and receive pleasure. I may not have tested out back then but I do believe it is possible to lead an ethical sexual life with multiple partners. The key is to practice safe sex and treat ones partners with honesty, respect and kindness.

  175. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi ybm,

    I am not sure what you mean by wanting control or why that’s a bad thing. I certainly do want control over my own destiny as much as possible. I’d wager that lots of men care about the same things!

  176. sunshinemary says:

    regret not sleeping around more when I was younger because I think I missed chances with a lot of men to give and receive pleasure.

    Oh, I’m sorry but I can’t let that stand unchallenged. I am not saying you don’t feel that way, but there are a lot of silent readers on this blog, and I would not want any of the women to think that not sleeping around was a missed opportunity. I slept with several people before my husband and I entirely regret it. There are at least 20 benefits off the top of my head to remaining a virgin until marriage; sleeping around has only one “benefit” in that it may be fun in the moment. A few moments of pleasure are not worth a lifetime of regret.

  177. sunshinemary says:

    html fail – the first two lines of my above post are a block quote

  178. thankz for da poem!!

    thank you thank you!!!

    at hertistse heartsistze they love me very much and often wirte me love poetry too trying to wooo woooo wooo me and court me lzozozozozozoz

    her name is jane, jane autsten jane austen and she wirte da gbfm lostas poetryies!!!

    http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/the-middle-class-quiet-riot/#comment-353829

    janefriggingausten
    [from GBFMmadeus, a screenplay by Jane Frigging Austen]

    Emperor: And of course, our illustrious Court Money Composer, Maestro Bernanke.

    Bernanke: At last! Such immense joy, delecto strawddeneirwehoohowdoIspellItalianlollz-

    GBFM(TM): Yes, I know your work well Signore. Funny little policy but it taught me what not to do.

    [Bernanke FROWNS]

    Emperor: And now Maestro Bernanke has returned the favor and composed this little monetary ditty in honor of you.

    GBFM(TM): Oh, oh, lollzlzozloz!

    Emperor: And now, gentlemen, did we settle at last for the fiat currency or the gold standard?

    Kapellmeister Rubin: Actually, sire, if you recall, we did finally incline to the FIAT currency.

    Chamberlain Chesterton (skeptical): DID we?

    Baron Von Mises: I don’t think it was really decided, Your Highness.

    GBFM(TM): Oh, gold! Gold! Please, let it be the gold standard!!

    Emperor: Really? why?

    GBFM(TM): Because it’s proven to be the most wonderful policy!

    Kapellmeister Rubin (sneering): Oh! Have I seen it?

    GBFM(TM): I don’t think you have. I mean, it’s quite old! And you never read any Classical Political Economy.

    Emperor: Well, tell us, GBFM. What’s your policy?

    GBFM(TM): Well the whole thing is premised, it’s premised, you see, on the discovery that the whole of modern society is like a, like a– a– lolzlolzzlzllzolozlllozlzz!!!

    Emperor: Yes. What?

    GBFM(TM): Like a harem, your Majesty. A hypergamous seraglio.

    Kapellmeister Rubin: You mean like the Age of Iron(y)?

    GBFM(TM): Yes!

    Kapellmeister Rubin: Then why especially do you require the Gold Standard?

    GBFM(TM): Well, hypothetically it could be bimetallism. But at least there should be a standard, best a GOLD Standard, based on solid Great Virtues.

    Bernanke (sarcastic): I’m sorrow Majesty, but, what do you suppose these Great Virtues could be? (officious) Being an economist, I would love to learn!

    Emperor: Well, tell him, tell him GBFM. Name for us a Great Virtue.

    GBFM(TM): Love, sire.

    Bernanke: Oh, love, love! Being a financier, I know nothing about love!

    [sneering laughter of approval from the other financial wizards]

    GBFM(TM): No, Herr Chairman, I don’t think you do. I mean, reading The Economist magazine. Open borders, fiat printing, no-fault divorce, that’s not love, it’s–it’s, just BUTTHEXING!

    [Doktor Summers bellows with uneasy laughter, then stops himself]

    GBFM(TM): Sire, you must decide. Give me the gold standard, and it will be my task to help usher in the most just and harmonious society any monarch has ever presided over.

    Emperor: Well then, let it be the gold standard. Oh and here, Kapellmeister Bernanke’s little ditty is for you.

    GBFM(TM): Keep it if you want, Majesty. It’s already here in my head.

    Emperor: Really? from one hearing only?

    GBFM(TM): It’s not like I don’t hear it everyday from the Wall Street Journal editorial page.

    Emperor: (skeptical) Show us.

    GBFM(TM) moves to the clavichord, pops knuckles. Begins:

    GBFM(TM): “First we tax, and we spend, and we borrow some

    Then we tax, and we spend, and we print fiat coin

    Then we tax and we spend and we print some

    Then we all starve to death in a ditch

    dodedodedo

    Then we tax and we spend and we print some

    And we’ll all starve to death in a ditch–

    dododedo

    Then the illegal immigrants come and bury us,

    Then the illegal immigrants come and bury us,–”

    That doesn’t really work, does it?

    [cut to BERNANKE, furious]

    GBFM(TM): Should we try a bit more:

    “Then we cut taxes and we spend and we print some–”

    Or this:

    “We cut taxes and reform spending and end divorce court–”

    This!

    “And we won’t have to die in a ditch,

    No, we can live well and be reasonably rich.”

    Lolzlolzzlozllolzlzllozlolozlzzlolzl!!

    “If we teach women to respect the marriage bed

    And flush Deconstruction from their heads

    Then they’ll raise children right and not go insane

    And their husbands can put to use all their brains.

    dododedo

    Education will consist of the Great Books

    Instead of the sneers of Marxist kooks,

    Boys can learn some math and engineering too

    But above all, they’ll respect the Great Virtues.

    Heroic deeds require more than Finance,

    Or swinging the cocka that’s in your pants–

    lollzolozlolzllollzlolz

    And the highest deed you could ever do

    Is discover Truth, create Beauty, follow Virtue.

    If America you would reform,

    You must readopt ancient norms,

    Truths Dr. Johnson knew of old,

    Then your wives will ne’er be desouled!–

    No, your daughters will ne’er be desouled!–

    And we’ll restore the Age of Gold!!!

    [GBFM(TM) pauses for dramatic effect, then reitertes:]

    Age of Gold!!!

    LOLZLOZLOLLZOLOLOZZLOLZLZZLOZZOZLZLOLZZLZLLOZ!!!!!

  179. SunshineMary, list your 20 benefits.

    There is nothing good about screwing around. I only had sex with one girl before my wife, and I sometimes regret that.

  180. ybm says:

    You don’t even know what the ‘power’ you envy even is, you could not elucidate nor quantify this ‘power’ if you were given a thousand lifetimes. Because power isn’t your goal, control is your goal. No female desires to be a brute, a slave, a device, no, what you female supremacists desire is to control the ‘brutal’ males. In thought and action, your guiding light is to play queen bee to the drones, to have mindless brutes at your beck and call to dispose of at her twisted whims. You are a liar, and you have been exposed.

    That you would agree with me an casually dismiss it shows you have nothing to offer this discussion save for your own ego-boosting nonsense. The radfem hub is your natural habitat.

  181. Jacquie says:

    @DH

    I am just opposed to being a second class citizen

    Sine you brought this up, I’m curious what you define as a second class citizen.

  182. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi Sunshinemary, I think it’s a question of “know thyself.”. I slept with my college boyfriend on the first date. I felt comfortable doing it because I knew myself well enough to know quite certainly that I would not regret it. And I never have. It’s still a memory that I cherish, an experience that I think has made me a better lover to my husband. Other women may very well react differently. I would certainly never argue that my way is right for all. And while there are surely some women for whose virginity before marriage works, I dont think that is the right choice for all either.

  183. Hey Doomed Harlot,

    does your husband know that you slept with dudes on the first date?

    did you sleep with him on the first date?

    why did you make him pay for and work more and wait for it?

    was your college boyfriend more alpha?

    alpha f**ks & beta bucks! lzozozoz

  184. aneroidocean says:

    Reblogged this on aneroidocean and commented:
    Dalrock hitting the nail on the head yet again. Just too good not to reblog.

  185. Thank you, GBFM. A fine libretto. I assume you were inspired by the film Amadeus. I am not sure how Jane Friggin Austen got a credit, but she is always welcome.

  186. sunshinemary says:

    DC, I will write the 20 reasons on my own blog later so as not to get this thread too off course.

  187. Thank you, SunshineMary.

  188. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi Jacquie,

    To be clear, I do not view myself as a second class citizen now. But I’m a feminist because when I was growing up, women indeed seemed to be second class citizens. It was widely culturally accepted among my demographic that women stayed home with the children in a position of economic dependence on their husbands at the cost of access to a voice or power in the larger society, I.e. the courts, politics, the business world, academe, the press, unions, etc. Even in the 70s when things were starting to change rapidly, those sectors were overwhelmingly male dominated and many people I knew simply took it for granted that women couldn’t or shouldn’t hold any roles in those areas. In addition, many women were (and many still are) raised with cultural and religious beliefs to the effect that their role at home is to submit to their husbands who are to be the leaders in the home.

  189. sunshinemary says:

    This power thing is interesting to me. It’s more than just wanting equal pay and all that nonsense. I have a clear memory from many years ago of hating my husband’s greater physical abilities. I was in my late twenties at the time. I was cooking something and straining on tip toe to reach a bottle of spices off the rack. I am 5’7″ and my husband is 6’1″; he walked by and casually reached up and handed me the spice bottle, and I felt this irrational anger and jealousy sweep over me. I had a momentary sensation of hating him for being taller and able to reach stuff that I couldn’t. Of course, I don’t hate him, so I was able to switch to a meta-cognitive sort of awareness of how I was feeling, but I couldn’t quite identify why I felt that way.

  190. PuzzledTraveller says:

    LOL at Doomed Harlot.

    ” I slept with my college boyfriend on the first date. I felt comfortable doing it because I knew myself well enough to know quite certainly that I would not regret it. And I never have. It’s still a memory that I cherish, an experience that I think has made me a better lover to my husband.”

    Lolz!!!!!!!!

    This post from U of Man seems tailor made for you. Does your husband realize how lucky he is that you were able to have have that experience to cherish? Does your husband agree that you banging that guy on the first date was for his (your husband’s) benefit? Do you discuss it with him in epic detail so that your husband understands fully the amaZing thing you did for him?

    Oh the timing is perfect.

    http://www.theuniversityofman.com/blog/top-5-reasons-her-sexual-past-shouldnt-matter-reason-4.html

  191. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi Great Books,

    My husband does know that I slept with my college boyfriend on the first date. I also slept with my husband on the first date. What can I say? I’m very decisive. Our first date was me cooking dimner for him in his apartment as a thank you to him for helping me get oriented in law school. He was a year ahead of me. He didn’t have to pay for a thing!

  192. PuzzledTraveller says:

    Or perhaps the lead graphic on this post from Rollo is more suited to the situation:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/case-study-wanted-new-daddy/

    You ‘ladies’ crack me up to no end.

  193. @P Ray:

    I apologize for responding to you with anger. I’m sorry for whatever happened that caused you such pain. I hope you find your way out of it.

  194. It is kind of interesting how territorial some of the men are who post comments here, and that they seem to expect that every other man must share their insecurities.

  195. Jacquie says:

    In addition, many women were (and many still are) raised with cultural and religious beliefs to the effect that their role at home is to submit to their husbands who are to be the leaders in the home.

    Are you then saying that women who do maintain their homes fulltime and defer to their husbands are second class citizens? Otherwise, you explained what your position is but did not define what you consider a second class citizen.

  196. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi Puzzled Traveler,

    Well, I never claimed that I slept with my college boyfriend FOR my husband’s benefit. That was certainly not my purpose! But I do think it helped my sex life with my husband.

    And yes, my husband knows about it. I am not a big secret keeper and I do like to dish about sex! He’s not crying into his pillow about it, I can guarantee you.

    Dalrock, sorry this got derailed into another discussion of my weird sex life. Hope that’s okay with you. I don’t mind talking about it. I’ve had some interesting developments in that area. About four weeks ago, my husband and I agreed to an open marriage, so I am starting in my early 40s to catch up on that sleeping around I missed out on, and am homestly earning the name “harlot.”

  197. PuzzledTraveller says:

    “Decisive” Holy smokes. Pure genius. Thank you. I’m thinking of the neg possibility of this turn of phrase against LMR.

    “Hmm, thought you were a more decisive type of girl…”

    No self respecting modern woman will allow a man to characterize her as having anything less Julius Caesar levels of “Decisiveness.” She’ll show me!

    Lol.

    Yes I am an ass tonight. No, I don’t care. Okay maybe I care this much [ ], then again

  198. PuzzledTraveller says:

    Okay, I’m just messing about with you some. I didn’t know your whole history here so if as you say, you and you’re husband are into your thing, and everyone is on board, then it’s none of my bidness. You ladies still crack me up though. ;-P

  199. sunshinemary says:

    An open marriage? Um, I think we need to do some kind of intervention here or something.

  200. PuzzledTraveller says:

    @Sunshinemary

    Why an intervention?

  201. Jacquie says:

    @DH
    Forget about getting back with that definition of second class citizen. Your last post about your open marriage told me everything I need to know.

  202. sunshinemary says:

    Seriously, DH, do not do this thing you are thinking of doing. It’s not just you will be sretly tpaed while ur butthexting…

    It will end badly. You will not be happy. There is very likely going to be a divorce in your future. Stop and reconsider.

  203. Cane Caldo says:

    It is kind of interesting how territorial some of the men are who post comments here, and that they seem to expect that every other man must share their insecurities.

    Yes, it’s surprising, isn’t? Who could have guessed that the sex who invented private property, cities, states, nations, and civilization in general would turn out to be territorial? Who could have guessed that the sex that has no such accomplishments would not know how to observe and not run afoul of a simple blog?

  204. Doomed Harlot says:

    Jacquie, Good question! I would say that second class citizens are those who are systemically deprived of an equal chance to participate in running our society and/or it’s institutions, including its family life.

    I would say that my mother was and is a second class citizen. She was rasised in an era and community when it was virtually unthinkable for a woman to hold any job other than SAHM! nurse, librarian, teacher or secretary, i.e. poorly paid positions far from the levers of social power. College funds in her family were reserved for her brother. She was culturally conditioned with the idea that my father should be in charge.

    The reality on 2012 is a bit more complicated. There are women who have access to all the opportunities our society has to offer and still choose to be a stay at home mother. And I know lots of SAHMs who share equal decision making power with their husbands within the household. At the same time, there are still cultural and religious pressures on many women in our society to take a more submissive, self effacing role. Those women are not equally situated with their male peers.

  205. xvfb says:

    It will end badly. You will not be happy. There is very likely going to be a divorce in your future. Stop and reconsider.

    You’re kidding. I mean we all know she is going to succeed very easily, and he probably won’t. Dangerous territory…but I’ll be awaiting her inevitable post writing up this utter fail.

  206. Yes, it’s surprising, isn’t? Who could have guessed that the sex who invented private property, cities, states, nations, and civilization in general would turn out to be territorial?

    I wouldn’t say that all men are territorial. Just some.

  207. TFH says:

    Dalrock asked DH,

    Elsewhere you stated that you married the second man you ever kissed. How does that square with you regularly offering to pay for dates with men. Did you never kiss these men?

    All this is in her head.

    Anyway, the Rational Male chart of male vs. female attractiveness by age has to be shown all over the place. It has very high bang for the buck in terms of giving women reality checks and/or expanding their hamsters to Songhua River Mammoth size :

    https://rationalmale.files.wordpress.com/2012/05/smv_curve1.jpg

  208. Maybe he has a cuckold fetish.

  209. PuzzledTraveller says:

    @Original Trouble

    “It is kind of interesting how territorial some of the men are who post comments here, and that they seem to expect that every other man must share their insecurities.”

    Are you a chick? You sound like a chick. If you are, then cool. If not, work on it. Only chicks talk like that, trying to dish out some shame. What’s next? – “Your wee wee is small”, “You must not have any women.”, blah, blah, blah.

    “Territorial” is hard wired in our DNA. Everything is mine. Everything. From your vagina and the kids that it brings forth to everything else I can bring under my control through alliance, force or fire. Whether that is just my business, my house and front yard or 1200 miles of Mesopotamia. So be it. It’s why we do the things we do and we have this uncanny urge to protect the things that we claim as ours from others trying to stick their peeners, troops or settlers in them. It’s called protecting your hard earned resources.

    Women and children can afford to be careless with things. Men can’t.

    I don’t see mention of insecurities. I don’t expect everyone to share my opinion or sense of humor. Only the smart people.

  210. TFH says:

    It was a delightful way of living out my feminist principles while

    I don’t think the word ‘feminist’ and ‘principle’ can be in the same sentence.

    More than anything, feminism is merely a demonstration of how many contradictions, logical flaws, and hamster rationalizations can be contained within one mind without that mind beginning to actually *think*.

  211. More masculine men, like Cane, tend to be territorial.

  212. sunshinemary says:

    Feminist Hater is an upstanding Boer
    He wants a good girl, not a whore.

    You know, DC, it is really too bad of you to bring up FH after he went out of his way to pin a cyber scarlet S on my yesterday. ;)

  213. Doomed Harlot says:

    Sunshine Mary, I appreciate your concern! So far the open marriage thing has been great for us, but it’s only been a very short time. If it starts to feel wrong, or seems to be threatening our marriage, we will definitely call a halt to it. And I strongly believe that this is not an arrangement that would work for everyone.

  214. sunshinemary says:

    my = me

  215. Jacquie says:

    Me thinks I’ve just been defined as second class and not equally situated with my male peers.

  216. sunshinemary says:

    DH, do you mean to say that you have already instigated this folly? You have had sexual relations with other men and your husband approves? This is madness.

  217. sunshinemary says:

    Jacquie, I think you and I are both down in second class land together. I’m pretty happy here. You?

  218. PuzzledTraveller says:

    @ Doomed Harlot

    Kidding around aside…

    You said:

    “At the same time, there are still cultural and religious pressures on many women in our society to take a more submissive, self effacing role. Those women are not equally situated with their male peers.”

    Asking seriously:

    Do they need to be equally situated with their male peers?

    Why?

    If they are not, is it bad? if so, in what way?

    If a man leads, and his woman follows, and no one has a gun to their heads, what’s bad about that?

    Do you truthfully believe in this day and age that there is widespread cultural and religious pressure in our society to keep women down or to control their behavior? Apart from the Amish.

    What cultural and religious institutions are doing that? Again, apart from the Amish.

  219. @DC: My husband is a military officer and I consider him extremely masculine (he’s great with power tools, as well). He isn’t territorial about my past, only my present.

    @PT: I’m a chick.

    Only chicks talk like that, trying to dish out some shame. What’s next? – “Your wee wee is small”, “You must not have any women.”, blah, blah, blah.

    I’ve actually heard quite a few men accuse other men of being pindicks, if the pincushion fit.

    “Territorial” is hard wired in our DNA. Everything is mine. Everything. From your vagina and the kids that it brings forth to everything else I can bring under my control through alliance, force or fire. Whether that is just my business, my house and front yard or 1200 miles of Mesopotamia. So be it. It’s why we do the things we do and we have this uncanny urge to protect the things that we claim as ours from others trying to stick their peeners, troops or settlers in them. It’s called protecting your hard earned resources.

    I guess for my husband, it’s sufficient that I’m his 100% from now until death. He doesn’t feel a need to extend his territory to cover years when he didn’t know me (and I didn’t know him). But, I always find it interesting when men (and women) attempt to ensure that no one else has pissed on their tree. I’m not shaming, just trying to understand. As a woman, I am appreciative of the fact that he had experiences before he met me that made him the man he is.

  220. CL says:

    What’s wrong with being territorial? So I guess you won’t mind if I come over to your place, sleep in your bed, eat your food and wipe my butt on your towels. Swell!

  221. Hf says:

    Doomed Harlot is a troll. My guess, of the male/mangina denomination.

  222. SunshineMary, You don’t have a scarlet letter on you in my mind.

    PuzzledTraveller, precisely. A man rules his own fiefdom, large or small.

  223. @PT regarding post at 9:43

    I don’t think there is anything wrong with women who choose to be in a subordinate role, as long as this is something they chose freely.

    My husband’s rank is commander; we joke that we have a CDR/XO relationship. He’s the big picture guy, I’m the details person who gets things done and only takes the helm when needed. I do not believe that men are entitled to submission by virtue of being male. My husband is a good leader, and he’s competent at taking charge of things. If he weren’t competent enough to run things, I would not have married him.

  224. sunshinemary says:

    An apparently CL, you can have at her man while you are there as well.

  225. 7man says:

    The remaining few vestiges of respect for DH evaporate in the slight breeze of the swinging saloon door as new patrons belly up to the bar.

  226. sunshinemary says:

    An = And

    I must be tired. I can’t get all my letters on the screen.

  227. I wasn’t trying to mock FH. It was just a joke. I wanted to rhyme “boer” and “whore”.

  228. CL says:

    An apparently CL, you can have at her man while you are there as well.

    Nooooo thanks. I’ll stick with being a second class citizen. (Really, it’s hard to follow 7man’s comment with anything anywhere near as funny, LMAO).

  229. sunshinemary says:

    Oops, I think I confused DH and OT. It is my bedtime now. I’m making no sense. :)

  230. OT, my wife and I are both the possessive type.

  231. What huh? Lay a finger on my man, and things will get nasty. ;) I am territorial about his present and future, but not his past.

  232. Also, I would never have thought to rhyme boer with whore, but I will be using that in the future.

  233. Hf says:

    @OT

    I believe she was talking about having Doomed Harlot’s man…

  234. Doomed Harlot says:

    Sunshine Mary,

    It’s nice that you are perfectly happy with second class status. But the point is that you don’t have the right to demand the same of the rest of us. Not that you’re doing that, as far as I know. One woman who likes being pressured into a submissive social role doesn’t make it okay for the rest of us.

  235. PuzzledTraveller says:

    @Original Trouble

    Ah, I see. I understand your views as you have expressed them in your last paragraph. I’ve really not known too many women that care so much how many other women have been with their man in the past, as long as there is not a long line of bastard children littering all across the land or a string of ex-wives. Those would be resource drains that could impact the new woman’s financial future and the financial future of any new offspring unless the man still has an abundance of resources after paying everyone off.

    I don’t know if I can even fully explain this to you from a man’s perspective as to why this issue has importance to men on a level that women claim not to understand, though I think they do understand. I think women must claim not to understand and attempt to heap a dose of shame on any man who would raise it.

    If women accepted that their past sexual behavior is a strong consideration for men selecting them for marriage or LTR, they would not go such lengths to conceal it nor to shame down any man who says – “ewww.” So, I think you kind of do understand it in your way. That’s why you use terms like “territorial” and suggest we have “insecurities.”

    I would suggest that maybe we are just looking out for number one, (ourselves, not you in case anyone misunderstood) and managing future risk. We are making sure we are not being promised one thing, and paying a high price for you, to find out we’ve been duped.

    “Well honey, c’mon don’t get mad. Geez I didn’t tell you about ALL my past boyfriends! Duh! And how was I supposed to know my mother was going to invite him?” “We’re you sleeping together when you were going out?” the man asks. “Just once” will be her reply, “and I didn’t like it.” “It’s not like with you!” ROFL. Dudes, such dupes some times.

    Other men will understand this. Even the ones who claim they “really don’t care what you did before I met you.” Oh yes, they care. They are just too afraid to say so for fear of losing access to the sex that they seem to think is so rare and scarce to acquire. So they play along, or don’t ask too many questions because they are afraid of the answers. Not out of insecurity but because the answer might disgust them on some reptile brain level.

    So I’m going punch myself in the nads and explain this in a high pitched voice using girl logic:

    “Cuz I said SO!!!!”

    But seriously go read these couple posts if you’d like to start to get an appreciation of this little facet of things:

    http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2012/07/23/case-study-wanted-new-daddy/

    http://www.theuniversityofman.com/blog/top-5-reasons-her-sexual-past-shouldnt-matter-reason-5.html

    http://www.theuniversityofman.com/blog/top-5-reasons-her-sexual-past-shouldnt-matter-reason-4.html#comments

    Rather humorous that they gents posted up something in a similar vein but pertinent to this angle of the discussion.

    Night. Night.

  236. PT: I know that my ex-husband cared a lot about my sexual past, and he was a super insecure guy. My current husband does not seem to be bothered by it, and has asked me questions about it, which I answered candidly, and the answers actually seemed to turn him on to some degree, and we had super hot sex afterwards. So, I don’t know that this is shared across the board by all men. In my experience, some are bothered by it, others apparently aren’t. The extremely confident guy that I am married to isn’t bothered by it. It struck me that there might be a link, and that the link might be something to do with self-confidence or sense of self, but I also could be completely off base here. Thanks for the detailed response.

  237. PuzzledTraveller says:

    @Original Trouble

    Re: @PT regarding post at 9:43

    Well I don’t think we are too far apart on things really. It sounds like what you’re doing there works for you guys and if you are happy that’s cool, and I’m all about people having a happy marriage if they can get it going.

    I was just addressing that often in these types of forums, women will get e-upset at the fellows about the fact that yes, we do care about what you were doing before we met you. When we try to explain that it’s not because of insecurity but because we’re using it to gauge possible future behavior and the risk to ourselves and our future earnings, business and kids, we get the ole “You have a small and insecure wang” thrown at us.

    Check this one out from a woman’s perspective:

    http://www.hookingupsmart.com/2010/01/29/hookinguprealities/the-sex-risk-for-women-that-no-one-likes-to-talk-about/

    Okay, Night for real. Early day conquering the world tomorrow. MINE! MINE! MINE!

  238. OT, it is a nice rhyme, especially if you pronounce both words as two syllables. Or perhaps I mean as diphthongs.

  239. 7man says:

    @ Doomed Harlot,
    Sunshine Mary,
    It’s nice that you are perfectly happy with second class status. But the point is that you don’t have the right to demand the same of the rest of us. Not that you’re doing that, as far as I know. One woman who likes being pressured into a submissive social role doesn’t make it okay for the rest of us.

    So you deem Sunshine Mary a second class citizen and then say you are not saying that and conclude by distinguishing yourself from her ilk. Classic!

    It seems you are fulfilling the both the Doomed and the Harlot parts of your internet name while being critical of other women not embracing your folly and unfaithfulness.

  240. I’m from the south, we pronounce many words with two syllables that others would pronounce as one, whore being one of them.

  241. Doomed Harlot says:

    Wait, I didn’t deem Sunshine Mary anything. She labeled herself such based on the definition I provided. Also, calling someone a “second class citizen” is not an insult but a descriptor. I have enormous respect for my mother but it would be dishonest to pretend that her opportunities in life and her social power are equal to my father’s. She is a second class citizen because of her sex and the era and community in which she was raised. No shame in that. It’s just reality.

  242. @PT: I think that it’s a reasonable concern. It’s not like I want herpes all up in my ladybits, so how men live matters to me, as well. I was somewhat irresponsible in my younger years, but was lucky. My husband’s careful behavior during our early days of dating was a good indicator of his values. I think he found the same to be true about me, and we’re both almost 30 years out of college, so we have granted each other expungements for our younger follies. As far as the tiny, insecure wang, an unfortunate and all-too-appropriate description of my ex.

    Sleep well and may you conquer. ;)

  243. 7man, do you always talk like you’re playing a role in an adventure film based upon a comic book?

  244. poester99 says:

    AHAHAHHAHAHAHA!!!!

  245. PuzzledTraveller says:

    @OT 10:15

    Well, I don’t know then. Obviously we are all grown up enough to know that there are some guys who do have a fetish or “thing” for hearing about or watching their wives with other guys and it is a big turn on for them. Dunno. The only person who would know is you guys, so if you don’t know you could ask I guess, but you might want to leave that can of worms well the hell alone.

    There is a form of ‘open’ marriage where the husband does not go out with other ladies. The wife goes out and does her thing and then comes home and tells hubby about it in great detail and for him that is the big payoff. Dunno. People do what they like to do I suppose.

    Regarding your ex-husband, I would personally find out the information up front-ish and make a decision if I was okay with her past or not. If not, then I wouldn’t waste each others time. If I was okay with it I don’t see a need to keep bringing it up after the wedding unless one or both partners insists on keeping people around they used to sleep with as “just friends now.” That would be on one level profoundly annoying, and on another level a show of complete contempt and disrespect for your partner that I would not personally tolerate.

    I’m not saying there are no insecure men, but there are valid reasons why we take these things into consideration and I think it’s on a gut level so it can’t be convinced away by our rational brain if we have a bad “gut reaction” to the information. The level of reaction is going to be different with any guy, but there’s going to be a reaction, even if it’s not overt.

    Night.

  246. Doomed Harlot says:

    Puzzled Traveler, I missed some of your prior questions. You asked if I believe that today there are widespread social pressures on women to embrace a more submissive role. That’s a complicated because our society is so diverse!

    I will say that I do not believe I am facing any such pressures. I am from a liberal, privileged, secular demographic. No one expects me to submit to my husband or give up my job.

    On the flip side, we have huge swathes of fundamentalism in the United States, a culture that absolutely promotes female submission. But even in that realm, the situation is nothing like that in the 50s, 60s, or 70s.

    We also have other demographics in which women’s equality is sort of accepted with, at best, unease. But on the whole, I’d say the situation is about as good as it has ever been. I’m amazed and delighted!

  247. 7man says:

    @Original Trouble,
    7man, do you always talk like you’re playing a role in an adventure film based upon a comic book?

    I see it more akin to plinking at those little moving ducks in a penny arcade.

  248. I don’t think either of us is interested in being with anyone else except each other. The idea repulses me, in fact. He is the only man I want. I just think he likes to occasionally think of me as the dirty girl that he tamed with his super masculinity.

    Hey, whatever keeps the little sailor happy. We have a very satisfying life together and I think we’re lucky to have fond each other.

    Ciao.

  249. Doomed Harlot says:

    Puzzled Traveler,
    I have to go to sleep but I will confirm part of what you said. My husband does get a charge out of knowing that I am sleeping with other men. He doesn’t want all the details, but he likes knowing that it’s happening. I wish I’d known this about him 10 years ago!

  250. @7man,

    But do you hit them? :)

  251. PuzzledTraveller says:

    “We have a very satisfying life together and I think we’re lucky to have fond each other.”

    Then that’s what counts. :-)

    Nice chatting. Now I’m really going to bed. I have to take back Constantinople tomorrow and return it to the glory of Christendom, or I have a big azz client meeting, but I’ll be pretending I’m taking back Constantinople so I don’t fall asleep listening to people drone on and on about paradigms, metrics and game changers. Oh the humanity.

  252. Random Angeleno says:

    It’s nice that you are perfectly happy with second class status. But the point is that you don’t have the right to demand the same of the rest of us. Not that you’re doing that, as far as I know. One woman who likes being pressured into a submissive social role doesn’t make it okay for the rest of us.

    DH, that language you use is rather condescending, that is, your insistence on tagging SAHM’s with your view of their status and demanding the same of the rest of us. Being an SAHM is still an honorable occupation for those who choose it, they certainly do not view themselves as second class for having made that choice. Rather it is your culture that insists that they not do that until and unless they’ve exhausted all their alternative paths.

  253. “Doomed Harlot says:
    July 24, 2012 at 9:04 pm

    Hi Great Books,

    My husband does know that I slept with my college boyfriend on the first date. I also slept with my husband on the first date. What can I say? I’m very decisive. Our first date was me cooking dimner for him in his apartment as a thank you to him for helping me get oriented in law school. He was a year ahead of me. He didn’t have to pay for a thing!”

    Will u go out with me 4 one date? thanksz i will ride my bike over and be tehre at 7. i like hambrugerz abnd doggy style. see u soon! lzozozozo

  254. Doomed Harlot says:

    Maybe i am misunderstood. What I am getting at is that SAHMs in 2012 are NOT necessarily second class citizens. It depends on whether they are there because of gendered pressures that essentially coerce them into the role. The 2012 situation is complicated and there are, I’m sure, many SAHMs who have freely chosen to be SAHMs.

    But I don’t really understand this tendency to interpret “second class citizen” as an insult. My mother was a SAHM in a different era when she was definitely a second class citizen who did not enjoy the same opportunities or societal respect her brother or her husband because of her sex. That social fact doesn’t make her work as a SAHM less valuable or honorable, nor does it make my mother less worthy of respect, respect that I feel very strongly she SHOULD have gotten.

  255. Doomed Harlot says:

    Great Books, Thanks for the kind offer!!!

    Sadly, although I am in an open marriage, I am not indicriminate. As a bare minimum, I require my partners to be able to spell and type blog comments in proper English. Once that requirement is satisfied, there are additional vetting processes to undergo, But I do appreciate your interest!

  256. deti says:

    Sweeeeeeeet.
    Doomed Harlot is back! Doomed Harlot is back!

    So Dalrock, can we keep her as a pet this time? Huh, can we? Pretty Pleeeeeeeze?

  257. CL says:

    Anyone wonder why Doomed Harlot shows up after months of absence only to regale us with her repulsive tales of her husband’s cuckold fetish? Hmm….

    Also odd that at the same time Original Trouble and Strawberry Fields show up to argue simultaneously yet in parallel for basically the same points? That is, they are not exhibiting the normal behaviour of women with a common thread to communicate with each other, yet Strawberry tried to hitch her wagon to me, a much less obvious choice for her but perhaps an attempt at subversion. Seems a strange coinkydink.

  258. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi Deti. Nice to see you again too.

  259. van Rooinek says:

    me — the entire Manosphere is on the edge of its collective seat, waiting for you to elaborate: HOW did you FIX that problem?
    Original trouble — I realized that my problems were mostly of my own creation. I chose a bad guy, I married him, and my circumstances were of my own choosing. I took responsibility for those choices, actions, and circumstances, and got a close male friend to coach me on identifying good men…

    Vague. Please, please be a lot more specific. You have no idea how huge this issue is for the Manosphere… indeed it’s probably our primary raison d’etre.

    Many of us have made mistakes in our lives. I believe in redemption.

    Me too. Amen sister. But I’d sure like to see this badboy madness fixed, before my 3 sons are old enough to start dating. I don’t want them to suffer what I suffered.. and neither do I want them to face the temptation to become jerks in order to win the Christian wives that simply being a good Christian man won’t get you.

  260. van Rooinek, it helps if you are a bit of a natural “jerk”. Most men have it in them somewhere.

    I think OT is real, but I suspect Strawbie is not quite real.

  261. P Ray says:

    @Original Trouble:
    I’m sorry for whatever happened that caused you such pain. I hope you find your way out of it. :)

  262. TFH says:

    I doubt her poor husband has a cuckold fetish.

    Rather, it is a rationalization on HER part, by which she justifies what she is attempting to do to him, thereby convincing herself that ‘he wanted it’.

    Pretty obvious.

    That Doomed Harlot is too old to conceive, while seemingly a tragedy for her husband, is in fact the best possible news for him saving him from a fate most men consider worse than prison rape. Too old to conceive = too old to cuckold (which actually rhymes, unlike the first one).

    Too old to cuckold.

  263. TFH says:

    BTW, it is a complete myth that women were oppressed, even centuries ago.

    Just about every society on earth, even Islamic ones, sent a huge portion of men to die on the battlefield before any woman would face harm. Biologically this made sense, as even if most of the men died, the number of babies born would be the same.

    This is why women were always considered more valuable than men.

    The myth that women were oppressed would have us believe that tending to children and the kitchen is somehow worse than dying on a battlefield, in a mineshaft, or at sea.

    Note how peddlers of this ‘women were oppressed’ myth never take the ‘wanna trade?’ test. Women were ‘oppressed’ only compared to some fictional fantasy. Certainly not relative to men.

  264. P Ray says:

    ^ Remember that women suffer most in wartime.
    Men _only_ die or become disabled.
    “You dead and maimed guys are so lucky!”

  265. Cuckold fetishists do not all want their wives to conceive with another man. Cuckoldry can just mean her having sex with another man. It sounds like DH’s husband enjoys humiliation. He is likely a masochist.

  266. von Sacher-Masoch, for whom masochism is named, used to get his wife Wanda to sleep with other men.

    P Ray, I read a beaut once. A whiny bitch in an Australian newspaper complaining about women during wartime working in munitions factories. I wonder if women would benefit from lessons in humour and irony? Perhaps a college course?

  267. P Ray says:

    @David Collard:
    Women have the capacity for humour and irony.
    They just choose not to exercise it. ‘Sides, the smart ones get sidelined, or mould their personalities not to be a threat to women in their social circle. Shame.

  268. Cane Caldo says:

    As far as the tiny, insecure wang, an unfortunate and all-too-appropriate description of my ex.

    Dalrock, when was the last time a male commenter came on here and trumpeted that his ex had a really smelly vagina, or a giant FUPA? Has it ever happened?

  269. “Doomed Harlot says:
    July 24, 2012 at 11:01 pm
    Great Books, Thanks for the kind offer!!!

    Sadly, although I am in an open marriage, I am not indicriminate. As a bare minimum, I require my partners to be able to spell and type blog comments in proper English. Once that requirement is satisfied, there are additional vetting processes to undergo, But I do appreciate your interest!”

    lozozozolzlz one of da reasona i write like this is to demonstrate dat even though da outside of the tombs appear as whited sepulchres, inside there are dead, dry bones, as jseussth said.

    so it is with youz doomed harlot, that while your graammzrz and spellingz is as nice as dat at s da weekly standard ladies, inside you are a soulless black hole rotting caracases who fucks men on first dates and fornicates and commitz adultereries and cuckholds your husbandz and dsirepects both man and god

    zlzozzoz

  270. poester99 says:

    The myth that women were oppressed would have us believe that tending to children and the kitchen is somehow worse than dying on a battlefield, in a mineshaft, or at sea.

    Note how peddlers of this ‘women were oppressed’ myth never take the ‘wanna trade?’ test. Women were ‘oppressed’ only compared to some fictional fantasy. Certainly not relative to men.

    Even putting aside much larger chances death or grievous bodily harm (which still hasn’t changed) For most of history, the vast majority of men did not have great exciting and fulfilling careers, they had mind numbing, grueling labour which they had to do, from dawn to dusk (or longer) because otherwise they and their family would starve. Many of these jobs were in fact extremely physical and usually impossible for a woman to do.
    Early feminists were the wives of upper middle class men that wanted to switch places with their husbands who worked in cushy offices and typically were the top 1-2% of “working” men.

  271. Here is what I just wrote on SunshineMary’s blog:

    Now that I am semi-retired, I do some cooking. I find it fun and easy. The worst that has happened to me are some minor burns. I still also do outdoor jobs, such as yesterday, using an electric saw to cut up a fallen backyard tree. That was dangerous. The first blade snapped. At any time, I could have been seriously injured. Women should be GLAD to be stuck in the kitchen.

  272. Gamerp4 says:

    Dalrock: I want you to read this, It is about some sick chick finding James Holmes The Aurora shooter as CUTEEEEE. SEXY, and HOT. Write something about it.

    http://twitchy.com/2012/07/24/sickening-groupies-tweet-their-lust-for-aurora-shooting-suspect/

    And nice guys take heed this is what chick digs NOT CHIVALRY. Those men that gave their lives for their “girlfriends” will be forgotten tomorrow but 20 years in future James Holmes would be banging chicks in the alley and would become a sensation.

  273. driversuz says:

    Holy cow! Great post Dalrock, and what a fantastic circus in the comments!

    Doomed Harlot, What planet are you from? Women as second class citizens? Really? There has not been a single female second class citizen in the US since the abolition of slavery. Women have ALWAYS had as much power as men, but of an entirely different sort. The only thing that has reduced that power is feminist “empowerment” – the “power” to try to be men. Women make crappy men, and now most of us no longer know how to be women.

  274. tiredofitall says:

    “It turns out that middle aged women are going to punish men their age for preferring young sexy women, and will take their no longer sexy selves off the market! You go aging girls! Hit them where it hurts!”

    Looks like it’s time to invest in companies that produce cat food, D cell batteries, or “back massagers”. Maybe do the prudent thing and invest in all three?

  275. Our Australian Government provides aid to Papua New Guinea. A few years ago, the PNG Government got upset with us over some issue. They threatened to retaliate by refusing our aid.

    These old boilers threatening to withdraw themselves from the sex market remind me of that.

    Yes, driversuz, the comments on this post are hugely entertaining. They have kept me amused through a day in bed with a cold. Good craic, as the Irish say.

  276. xsplat says:

    I think it is biologically understood (instinctual) that men pay for youth and beauty. If an older woman wants a pool boy lover, she’s expected to pay for youth and beauty too – or at minimum give up free no commitment sex.

    Older women who lack youth and beauty are not merchandise anymore. They are lucky to get commitment – they have to pay the man with extra-ordinary charm and attentiveness. Otherwise what the hell are they offering in the bargain? Wizard sleeves?

  277. Deti:

    “So Dalrock, can we keep her as a pet this time? Huh, can we? Pretty Pleeeeeeeze?”

    You KNOW who will end up looking after her. Dalrock. You won’t change her hamster tray, Deti.

  278. chris says:

    Deti says

    So Dalrock, can we keep her as a pet this time? Huh, can we? Pretty Pleeeeeeeze?

    ,
    If you want to keep her as a pet, do you not have a place to do that? WordPress is always open…

    Xsplat says

    Older women who lack youth and beauty are not merchandise anymore. They are lucky to get commitment – they have to pay the man with extra-ordinary charm and attentiveness. Otherwise what the hell are they offering in the bargain? Wizard sleeves

    Nothing new here — was it not Chanel who stated that fashion was an art that allowed one to substitute for beauty? (It explains the fashionistas recurrent fascination with the bizarre and ugly). Most wise women know that they have to be interesting to gain and keep attention. Being merely decorative has never been enough for most women.

    The big thing that most women of a certain age forget is that their value is that of a man almost two decades older. There is a reason that the writer of EPL is with a man 17 years older than her — their SMP is about the same. The boys they rejected when they are young are chasing younger women.

    Their choice is simple: old farts or cats. And the old farts (like me) are cautious and choosey.

  279. Doomed Harlot says:

    Hi David Collard,

    I don’t think my husband is a masochist. This all started because I found out that he had a profile up on an online site for hooking up. I think he wanted to start enjoying life again after his illness. I don’t begrudge him that pleasure in the least. But I did point out that it wasn’t fair of him to lead me to believe that the rule in our marriage was monogamy, a rule by which I abided faithfully for many years despite my husband’s significant physical limitations, when in fact those aren’t the rules he believed in at all. Thus, our marriage opened up.

    You or others can call me a hamster if you like. I don’t mind admitting that i could be wrong about whether this is a good idea. I’ve never done it before! But sometimes I think it is worth taking risks in life. I also think that you can care for other people, and still love and adore your spouse as much as ever, if not more so. Love and sexual attraction are not finite resources.

    If this arrangement is consensual among all parties involved ( and by consensual I mean greeted with enthusiasm) , I am not sure what the problem is. I will say that my experiences thus far have confirmed my long standing appreciation of men. After everything I read on conservative sites like this, I went in to a couple of casual experiences expecting that the men might treat me disrespectfully because, hey, men on sites like this seem to really loathe so-called sluts. In fact, I’ve found the men I’ve corresponded with and slept with to be utterly kind, attentive and very concerned about me having a good experience with them. They want sex, of course, but they are not the callous, woman-hating monsters so often portrayed on men’s rights sites.

  280. DH, I thought you were implying that your hubbie got off on your exploits.

  281. Doomed Harlot says:

    Driversuz,

    Hmmm. Women have always had as much power as men, huh? But in some kind of amorphous different way that didn’t involve silly insignificant things like the vote, a paycheck, and a role in public life? Riiiiiight.

    Have some women at times in historyi been able to influence the course of events through their relationships with the men in their lives? Sure! But more often than not, the men in their lives pat them on the head and do what they want to do anyway. (indeed, many commenters on this website extoll the idea of men implacably taking charge). Indeed, throughout much of history, the standard has been for men to rule even in the domestic sphere.

  282. Doomed Harlot says:

    Dave Collard, He says he does.

  283. Feminist Hater says:

    Wow, talk about a derailment…

    DH, why do you keep coming back here? Are you turned on? Do those kind and caring men not treat you like the tramp you are? Who respects women like you, arrgghhhh?! You’re a disgusting she-whore. A puke extravaganza, ridden like Seattle Slew. You’re not a ‘so called’ slut, you are a slut, a piece of meat and nothing more. You’re a loathsome hypocrite too. If we are such hateful creatures, not fit for sluts like you, why do you keep coming back? Obviously being ridden like a race horse has not been enough, your soul is empty, a black void, utterly useless, a barren, cold and heartless place. No wonder your husband can’t get it up… probably wishes he could just die.

  284. Feminist Hater says:

    Yea DH, because voting for two parties that just happen to be exactly the same under the skin is such a good representation of freedom and responsibility. The more people who get to vote, the more useless it becomes. Take the vote, put an X on it, shove it up your arse, turn and squeeze and then take a dump, you’re worth it…

  285. Feminist Hater says:

    DH, when you sacrifice on the battlefield and die in jobs, in the same number as men have in the present and past, you might have the real ‘right’, not a nominal right handed to you by the jackboots in Government. In the meantime, I’ll be watching society go down the crapper and I’ll be laughing all the way. Just remember, with equality, you’re nothing but another man with a vajayjay and tits, entirely expendable.

  286. Doomed Harlot says:

    Feminist Hater,

    Not turned on. And you’re right, it’s a derailment. But Dalrock asked a question about me personally. I realize I volunteered more information than was asked, and perhaps that was wrong. I will say that I have engaged with the topic of the post, with my opinion that women should split the costs of dating because that’s better and more pleasant for women and men.

    I come back here because I am fascinated by how folks like you think. I go out and live my life surrounded by men and women who seem to get along just fine together, and then I come here and read a view of reality that bears no relation to my experience. I do like sharing my experiences because it’s fascinating to me how folks with an anti-feminist outlook interpret them in a way completely at odds with anything that wold occur to me.

    For example, I caught my husband engaged in activity that most people wold consider a betrayal, or cheating. Instead of haranguing him or calling a divorce lawyer, I tried to see his point of view and work out an accommodation that makes us both happy. How that makes me a cold and heartless person, I can’t tell.

  287. @DC:
    Now that I am semi-retired, I do some cooking. I find it fun and easy. The worst that has happened to me are some minor burns. I still also do outdoor jobs, such as yesterday, using an electric saw to cut up a fallen backyard tree. That was dangerous. The first blade snapped. At any time, I could have been seriously injured. Women should be GLAD to be stuck in the kitchen.

    Eh. I do like to cook, and I’m good at it. But, I was single for almost a decade as a homeowner with two kids, and I have done a lot of home repairs, such as installing light fixtures and fixing toilets and yes, using a circular/mitre/table/tile saw. In fact, I own most of that stuff. Maybe I’m abnormal, but I grew up on a farm, and my dad taught me some of that stuff. Other things, i learned on my own, using a book. In other words, the same way a lot of women learn to cook. if you follow the instructions, things usually turn out okay. So at my house, whoever is home that night tends to cook, and we own rental property that we work on together (including installing a new roof). I like to dress pretty but I’ve always been a bit of a tomboy.

    These days, it strikes me that there are a lot of men who consider themselves alpha who can’t fix anything…they just hire someone to do it. I’d rather not, it gives me pride to be able to take care of myself.

  288. @ feminist hater:

    When women are allowed to serve in combat, your comments will have a lot more bite. But, guys like you can’t very well say that women shouldn’t serve in combat and then beat up on women for not serving in combat. That’s a bit like older women being pissy because men they rejected now won’t pay for dates. Logical consistency is so important, don’t you think?

  289. And, for what it’s worth, if you look at data for women in law enforcement, they do tend to die at proportional numbers to men on the job. Will every woman want to work in those roles? Probably not. But, then, most guys don’t have dangerous jobs these days, either. There are women who want to serve in combat, and are not allowed to do so. I’ve seen a lot of change over the years in the field in which I work (criminal justice); there are increasing numbers of women in those fields, and if it makes you feel better, more die every year doing their jobs. Most of us (and I am a woman who is in that group) who have dangerous or semi-dangerous jobs have pretty much come to grips with the risks. And, I think that there is a normalizing effect…people see women working in those fields, it becomes something girls think about doing, and you end up seeing more girls/women choosing them. In another 100 years, you may well have your wish.

  290. Feminist Hater says:

    In hundred years, there won’t be an economy if we carry on like we are, but hell, just keep rationalising your bull. The point is, until that day, women don’t deserve to vote or to have any political power, so take that shit and shove it.

  291. Jacquie says:

    I don’t think my husband is a masochist. This all started because I found out that he had a profile up on an online site for hooking up. I think he wanted to start enjoying life again after his illness. I don’t begrudge him that pleasure in the least. But I did point out that it wasn’t fair of him to lead me to believe that the rule in our marriage was monogamy, a rule by which I abided faithfully for many years despite my husband’s significant physical limitations, when in fact those aren’t the rules he believed in at all. Thus, our marriage opened up.

    This explains everything. After being ill your husband fully realized how much he was not getting out of his relationship with you and how much his needs were not being met and felt he needed to go outside the marriage to find satisfaction. When you found out about it you had to go along with it or face that the feminist ideals you hold to so tightly really are the fallacy they are and a poison to relations between men and women for anything other than the grunt and grind of physical release that is attainable by any primal mammal without much thought. Being the epitome of the modern feminist you acquiesced to your husband’s desire for something more than what you were willing to give him, but not wanting to feel the pain of failure you have been able to spin the rationalization wheel so you could see it as a wife with her husband’s best intentions in mind while all along if you really did respect him for the man he is he would not have felt the need to seek somewhere else to fill the void inside him that was not being filled inside his marriage.
    I get it now. And I fit the description of second class? DH, you are only one step away from being disposable.

  292. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    My husband does know that I slept with my college boyfriend on the first date. I also slept with my husband on the first date. What can I say? I’m very decisive.

    Decisive!

    Open marriage

    Decisive!

    Sunshine Mary, I appreciate your concern! So far the open marriage thing has been great for us, but it’s only been a very short time. If it starts to feel wrong, or seems to be threatening our marriage, we will definitely call a halt to it.

    Decisive!

    My husband does get a charge out of knowing that I am sleeping with other men. He doesn’t want all the details, but he likes knowing that it’s happening. I wish I’d known this about him 10 years ago!

    Decisive!

    Harlot is simply looking for more attention-decisiveness in the comments section.

    And I think she’s all but stated that hubby is bi-sexual.

  293. Flip says:

    I am reminded of a conversation I had with a female co-worker (married, mid 40s, two children) who was agitated about how one woman we know (early 30s, single) was getting lots of dates while another (early 50s, divorced, two children) was getting none. I pointed out that dating a woman in her 30s meant the possibility of children and grandchildren while dating a woman of 50 led to nothing but the possiblity of companionship and a pleasant time. The two types of dating are utterly different. It sounds to me like the men in the article are willing to pay for women who can still give them children while they are not for women who can’t.

  294. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot

    And you’re right, it’s a derailment. But Dalrock asked a question about me personally. I realize I volunteered more information than was asked, and perhaps that was wrong. I will say that I have engaged with the topic of the post, with my opinion that women should split the costs of dating because that’s better and more pleasant for women and men.

    I don’t recall asking you if you’ve turned your life into an internet cliché in the time you have been away. I haven’t read all of your comments, but from what I did see you haven’t added anything substantial to the discussion beyond a desperate bid for attention.

  295. Doomed Harlot says:

    Jacquie,

    Interesting analysis but It doesn’t add up. First, I think you are naive if you think that men seek sex outside of marriage only when they are unhappy with their wives. That may be the case but not necessarily.

    Second, if my husband is dissatisfied with me, I don’t see how that gives lie to my feminist principles. Do you not realize that plenty of submissive Christian homemakers have been cheated on? It’s a pretty common issue regardless of political orientation.

    Third, if my husband were dissatisfied with me, I wouldn’t feel like a failure. I’ve been a faithful and attentive wife in sickness and in health, for richer or poorer, imperfect certainly, but basically I have and continue to hold up my end of the bargain. I’ve stuck by this guy through periods of eating ramen noodles for dinner because we had no money, impotence, infertility (his), illness and disability, work stresses, and all sorts of other ups and downs. . I can’t control, nor am I responsible, for his response, but he seems to want to be here with me.

    Fourth, I don’t see why you would assume that I am not honestly willing to engage in an open relationship. I think dalrock himself is fond of telling us that women are not naturally monogamous any more than men are.

  296. First Comment! says:

    The reason more women (and men) die in dangerous fields after the introduction of women is generally due to the decreased standards associated with women entering a physically demanding occupation. Observe:

    http://www.woai.com/news/local/story/Corpus-Christi-hit-with-police-sex-discrimination/0pAk4M_ss0OlTkf5XGWLuA.cspx

    The same thing has happened with American armed forces and firefighters. By lowering the standards of physical fitness tests weaker male and female candidates are getting jobs and putting themselves and those around them in harm’s way. I personally don’t have a problem with women doing these jobs, but they should be held to the standards that were in place out of necessity before they broke that barrier. If we keep seeing equality as fair, we’ll end up with firefighters too weak to save us from burning buildings, cops too slow to catch criminals, and soldiers who lack the power to fight.

    Also, just because women can’t serve in combat (I’m pretty sure most military barriers have been broken at this point) doesn’t mean they shouldn’t respect the sacrifice soldiers make.

  297. Doomed Harlot says:

    Dalrock, I hear you and respect you as the host of this forum. While I don’t agree with your assumption that I desperately need attention, I will cop to being interested in what people would think of my situation. And it has been an enlightening view into how the other half thinks.

    Because you say my comments have added nothing to the discussion, I will honor your wishes and refrain from further discussion of my situation. I do recognize that it was a derailment and for that I apologize.

  298. Phantasmagoria says:

    I would just like to ask;

    If “second class citizens are those who are systemically deprived of an equal chance to participate in running our society and/or it’s institutions, including its family life.”

    Does that not make the people whom are given the “beta” title second class citizens?

    Not trolling or anything, I’m genuinely interested in knowing.

    (Also, what’s the deal with the lzozozo and buthexting and the rest of the bad English? I’m not quite sure I understand why people are using it, but then again I’m a stickler for proper English unlike the majority of Gen Y)

  299. Dalrock says:

    @Jacquie

    This explains everything. After being ill your husband fully realized how much he was not getting out of his relationship with you and how much his needs were not being met and felt he needed to go outside the marriage to find satisfaction. When you found out about it you had to go along with it or face that the feminist ideals you hold to so tightly really are the fallacy they are and a poison to relations between men and women for anything other than the grunt and grind of physical release that is attainable by any primal mammal without much thought. Being the epitome of the modern feminist you acquiesced to your husband’s desire for something more than what you were willing to give him, but not wanting to feel the pain of failure you have been able to spin the rationalization wheel so you could see it as a wife with her husband’s best intentions in mind while all along if you really did respect him for the man he is he would not have felt the need to seek somewhere else to fill the void inside him that was not being filled inside his marriage.
    I get it now. And I fit the description of second class? DH, you are only one step away from being disposable.

    Since we are already giving DH the attention she craves I’ll share my own guess. I suspect it is more that after a decade or two of her scrambling for dominance over her husband (which she will swear is equality), he tired of the strife. He seems to be confused in his response and it isn’t clear if he is searching for a woman who will allow him to be dominant or if he is trying to make the best out of his submissive role in their marriage via cuckold fetish. He sounds like he might be doing both at once, which admittedly seems very odd. Either way, DH isn’t doing her cause any good parading this level of dysfunction while looking for validation.

  300. Feminist Hater says:

    TFH is right, these women are literally turned on by coming here. They can’t help it. They need and want it. They need to be slapped down here because the men in their lives won’t do it. It’s mind boggling…

  301. Feminist Hater says:

    First comment, they decreased standards to allow women into combat, the standards for men have remained largely the same.

  302. The current social situation is nirvana for the male masochist and cuckold fetishist. And I imagine some men might turn to this kind of lifestyle if they are unable to have a normal relationship.

    Phanta, GBFM is a famous Manosphere presence who dispenses wisdom in an idiosyncratic style. One of his trademarks is to write lozzolzzollozl, which I take to be laughter. He tends to hang out at Chateau Heartiste, but has appeared here of late like a Deus Ex Machina.

    One theory is that he is some famous guy hiding his real, distinctive, style by using an affected style. Once you crack the code, he is quite funny and insightful. As for distinctive turns of phrase, we all have them. Remember, the unabomber was caught for this reason.

  303. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot

    I’ve stuck by this guy through periods of eating ramen noodles for dinner because we had no money, impotence, infertility (his), illness and disability, work stresses, and all sorts of other ups and downs.

    As I said I haven’t read the full exchange since I checked out yesterday afternoon, so if any of this is a repeat I apologize. But in case it hasn’t already progressed, I wanted to flesh out the full internet cliche so it doesn’t continue to come out in drips and drops like a good soap opera should. When we last saw you (the season finale), you were a 40 something feminist lawyer with an egalitarian faithful marriage, trying to conceive with your husband before your window of fertility closed for good. Now we learn that your husband is impotent and infertile, and you are having sex with other men. This of course perfects the cuckold fetish and sets the stage for a round of paternity drama (I hear Maury is always looking for talent, by the way). If you like, I can write your next lines in this soap opera for you:

    Oh no! I’m pregnant! Which man could it possibly be? Sexy dominant stud, or loving (but infertile) beta husband?

    Which to choose….

    Just to help me visualize it (but not too much please), do any of the men wear an eyepatch and have a mysterious past? Is your long lost sister somehow involved in the plot? Perhaps one you were separated from at birth?

  304. Me too. Amen sister. But I’d sure like to see this badboy madness fixed, before my 3 sons are old enough to start dating. I don’t want them to suffer what I suffered.. and neither do I want them to face the temptation to become jerks in order to win the Christian wives that simply being a good Christian man won’t get you.

    I didn’t marry a bad boy. I married my sunday school teacher, a deacon in my church, who was adored by everyone there. Unfortunately for me, as it turns out, he has narcissistic personality disorder and had a secret problem with porn and keeping his penis in his pants.

    So, save the condescension for someone who’s earned it. However, if they need jerk lessons, sounds like you’re the guy for the job.

  305. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    It sounds to me like the men in the article are willing to pay for women who can still give them children while they are not for women who can’t.

    Back to topic!
    I see your point, but I think there’s another element that you briefly touched on.
    Women my age (40) simply aren’t as pleasant to talk to for an extended period. I always enjoyed myself and want to continue to have fun when I’m not punching the 40 hour clock. Middle-aged women complain as a pass-time. I think they looked to the wrong models as the matured. Your run of the mill “women’s show” portrays women complaining constantly and still “getting the man.” So, I think it had a gradual effect and they became the bitter complainers that are on the dating scene.
    Completely write them off? No, but odds are I wouldn’t be able to sit through a couple drinks with a woman who thinks complaining is conversation. I’m not an emotional tampon.

    Feminist Hater,
    They did reduce the physical standards for combat-related schools. When I went through jump school (airborne training) in 1991, we ran at a painfully slow pace because there were women in the formation. I say, “Painfully,” because we couldn’t stride and we had to run on top of our knees, pounding them with each step. I never served in a mixed airborne unit, but I imagine formation runs at those units were also slowed to allow women to keep up. Of course, they may have broken up battalions during PT in ability groups.
    My issue with women in combat is the lack of testosterone. Testosterone fueled aggression, properly trained, is an unbelievable force to deal with or fight alongside.

  306. @FH: Awww. Is someone having a sad? I’m sorry that the evil women are keeping you down.

  307. @First Comment:

    I work in criminal justice, my husband is a reservist in the Navy (currently @ RIMPAC exercises). He served a year in Tikrit. Tell me again how we need to honor the sacrifices of military personnel.

    The point wasn’t that military service isn’t deserving of commendation (strawman). The point was that FH doesn’t believe women are entitled to a voice in society until they “start dying in dangerous jobs.” Not all women wish to serve in combat, but not all men work in dangerous jobs, either. In fact, the majority don’t. Should we go all Starship Troopers and decide that only people who serve in the military have votes? Because, the bleats of folks like FH are growing a little thin at this point. The fact is that most men don’t work in law enforcement or the military or fishing crab off the coast of Alaska. And women do die doing their jobs these days. So, are those men who aren’t in dangerous jobs masculine enough to vote?

    I tend to see people on the internet like I see dogs: the little ones bark the loudest.

  308. Feminist Hater says:

    What’s a ‘sad’? Do you have them often? Once a month perhaps? Are you projecting your own feelings onto others again?

    That’s all you can do, right? People don’t agree with your bullshit premise anymore, men are not keeping women down. The patriarchy in fact kept women out of harm’s way. Now of course, it’s turning to shit because women don’t do the jobs that are dirty and that lead to deaths. Women don’t fight on the front lines like men. And now that less men are willing to prop up a society that shits on them, you have to come here and ‘shame’ because that’s all you know how to do.

    Here’s the deal, you’re an old hag, no one gives a crap about your over fucked vajayjay, not here, not anywhere. The good news is that you will be over men when you get closet to 55, not to far away from what I understand. Then you will have cats to look forward to, YAY!

  309. TFH is right, these women are literally turned on by coming here. They can’t help it. They need and want it. They need to be slapped down here because the men in their lives won’t do it. It’s mind boggling…

    Not everyone enjoys a circle jerk. I think it’s more interesting to discuss issues with someone who disagrees with me than to participate in an echo chamber of agreement. Apparently, you don’t, and that’s okay. We can’t all be independent thinkers.

  310. Tell me, FH: How will you be risking your life today to earn your vote?

  311. Dalrock says:

    @Original Trouble

    I didn’t marry a bad boy. I married my sunday school teacher, a deacon in my church, who was adored by everyone there. Unfortunately for me, as it turns out, he has narcissistic personality disorder and had a secret problem with porn and keeping his penis in his pants.

    Funny, you sound very much like a commenter who went by the name Dubious Wonder.

  312. Feminist Hater says:

    No, OT, the point is that women have never sacrificed in large numbers to earn these rights. ‘RIghts’are not given, the are fucking ‘earned’. If women do their duty, as men have in the past, they will earn them. Majority of deaths on the battlefield and on the job are men, fact. There is no disputing this. Until women earn that, they don’t deserve the vote, or political power. When they are given political power, all they do is send men to die for them.

    There is also no disputing the fact that the more people you allow to vote, the less meaningful it becomes. That’s why they allowed everyone to vote, now they can pretend to pander to specific target groups, such as women and minorities, promise the Earth and deliver fuck all. You call that ‘freedom’, are you that delusional? Don’t answer that question, we already know the answer.

  313. Feminist Hater says:

    Yes, OT, the only people who actually deserve to vote are those that are already dead. Stupid premise but let’s go with it. Men have always served their countries. They have always gone to war, or died in the mines, or farming or fighting off animals and what not. To the degree that 95 % or more deaths in service of God and country have been men. Women have not done that, they are not doing it and probably will never be asked to do it but they still get all their ‘rights’.

    The prevailing ideal of today is that men will continue to sacrifice their lives for a ‘right’ that was given to women for free. The apparent truth is that men won’t and shouldn’t. I don’t need to sacrifice and die for the vote because I deem it an absolute waste of my time. It does nothing because pieces of ass crap, like you, get to nullify my vote and get freebies on other people’s work.

    Go take a dump, you’re full of crap.

  314. P Ray says:

    @Dalrock:
    Original Trouble IS Dubious Wonder.
    The Sunday School teacher who lectures men to be good … ’cause she certainly doesn’t dare do that to women in her social circle…

  315. Anon E Myshkin says:

    lavazza1891 says: July 24, 2012 at 3:48 pm

    FH: For me it looks more like MMV. An average 35 YO guy who has succeeded in remaing unmarried and childless has it REAL easy getting average 30-35 YO women by pretending that he’s interested in marriage and children and decent results with average 25-30 YO women.

    If it were MMV the female curve would start at 16 or 18 (or the youngest age marriage allowed in the land), and it would peak there and decline rapidly. The male MMV curve is more complicated, because it includes both the ability to provide resources, and the ability to survive long enough to raise children.

  316. @Dalrock: Huh, go figure.

    @FH:
    The prevailing ideal of today is that men will continue to sacrifice their lives for a ‘right’ that was given to women for free. The apparent truth is that men won’t and shouldn’t. I don’t need to sacrifice and die for the vote because I deem it an absolute waste of my time. It does nothing because pieces of ass crap, like you, get to nullify my vote and get freebies on other people’s work.

    The constitution suggests that rights are inalienable and endowed by God. Maybe you should brush up on that concept.

    And, I guess the answer to my question is that you don’t do a dangerous job, but you feel comfortable riding on other men’s coattails.

  317. P Ray says:

    @Dubious Wonder/Original Trouble:
    First your fiancee was a full-time Ph.D student (at end October 2011) …
    and now he’s a commander in the reserves?
    Or did you also “see him for 9 months before you got married” .. just like your first husband whom you say you loathe and wouldn’t repeat that situation with?.
    You have many stories for someone who wants consistency from others. Just sayin’.

  318. My husband is a grad student and a commander in the reserves. We dated for four years before we got married.

    Don’t be pissy just because I made fun of your inflatable girlfriend on Private Man’s blog. It’s not very manly.

  319. Doomed Harlot says:

    Dalrock, I’m tickled that you find humor in my situation! Since you said it added nothing to the forum, I will try to stay mum other than to respond to you that there will be no paternity drama, and sadly, no men with eyepatches (unless you know someone suitable)!

    I do think it’s wrong to assume that women commenters talk about their situations here because it turns them on, or because we are seeking validation. Obviously this is NOT the place to come seeking validation for pursuing an alternative lifestyle! No, I think this forum and others like it are fascinating because you all seem to have reduced life, sexuality, and relationships between men and women to a simplistic formula. So it’s fun to throw out personal details and see how your commenters fit it into your one-size-fits-all worldview. I don’t really think I’m a special snowflake or anything, but I do think that most personal situations (including most traditionalist marriages) are far more nuanced, complex and idiosyncratic than what your vision of the world allows for.

  320. Feminist Hater says:

    Lol, you truly believe those ‘rights’ just come magically from God. God did not write your American Constitution. I’m not an American, so that point is entirely moot. However, the more your government shits on your Constitution, the same Constitution that didn’t allow women to vote, the more apparent it will become to sane American people, that unless they sacrifice and fight for their ‘rights’ the more ‘rights’ they will lose. Your ability to claim your rights are directly linked to exactly what your founding fathers said. You need your 2nd amendment rights to fight off, i.e. sacrifice, in order to keep them. Your founding fathers were clever, they knew you couldn’t have the privilege of ‘rights’ with the corresponding obligations to sacrifice for them.

  321. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    And out comes all the shaming tactics.

  322. P Ray says:

    @Dubious Wonder:
    Every man is after women no matter how they look? Ya right. Don’t flatter yourself.
    And besides that, with the economy being the way it is, men can buy the women who are putting themselves up for sale if that’s what they want to do.
    ‘Sides, it would only give crazy people like you success, if I went apeshit … and I rather like my days of doing what I want, when I want. Financial freedom is very vexatious when women see a man with it. :)

  323. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    I don’t really think I’m a special snowflake or anything, but I do think that most personal situations (including most traditionalist marriages) are far more nuanced, complex and idiosyncratic than what your vision of the world allows for.

    That is the very definition of “snowflake.”

  324. So, Doomed Harlot, you are just toying with us Gentlemen.

    You sly minx.

  325. Original Trouble says:

    @RTP:

    Would those be the tactics by which women who are divorced are assumed to have married a bad boy and are now trading him in for a beta?

    Or, would those be the tactics in which women are vilified for not serving in combat, but then told that they aren’t suitable for combat?

    Or, the “slut shaming”?

    Yeah. I agree. Shaming sucks. ;)

  326. Where is Raspberry Leaf Tea, or whatever her name is?

  327. Opus says:

    I have a new theory, and it concerns the three stages of Feminism:

    1. The original Feminists wanted to be like men – only top men, of course – and thus wanted to work, and become Doctors and Lawyers etc. Their purpose, I surmise, was to place themsleves amongst top men with the aim of marrying. It was a form of Cargo Cultism for they noticed that top male Doctors and Lawyers married cute young women and they reasoned that doing the same would have the same result. They certainly were not doing it merely for the money as the original Feminists (the Suffragettes) tended to be wealthy women anyway.

    2. Second wave Feminists noticing that the First wave Feminists, far from marrying the top men, had remained single and barren thus blamed men for not being attracted to older less attractive female Doctors and Lawyers. This was the fault of the men and so second wave Feminists blamed men for preferring pornography and young hot chicks to themselves. They couldn’t ban hot chicks but they could, perhaps, ban pornography. They thus burnt their bras and refused to shave their legs and generally indulged in shaming men for being men in the hope this would persuade men to marry them. Men did not wear bras or shave their legs, (which only seems to make men more attractive to women) so in true Cargo Cult style they assumed that if they did not do likewise they too, like men, would get to marry.

    3. Third wave feminists finding being bra-less uncomfortable and hairy not much of a turn on for guys decided to blame men for Promiscuity and thus have decided that women should, like men, be able to sleep around. This (sex-positive feminism) will they think force men to marry them, for again in Cargo-Cult style Promiscuous Men seem to have women throwing themselves at them. Perhaps therefore, Promiscuity too, could help women and an added Tat or two (as so many muscled guys have) might only assist in showing men how desirable they are. Sadly for the third wave-Feminists the opposite of what they hope for seems to be occuring, for men ignore the tattooed Slut, even though every one can see that they are Women Holding Out for Relationship Equality.

    Now, unlike TFH, I am not a Futurist and so I cannot predict what the outcome will be: Whether a total collapse of feminsim – as they do seem to have run out of options – or whether there will be a fourth wave of Feminists doing something different again to achieve what is always the same desire, namely; to make themselves attractive to men. Of course women could become pleasant, and I truly believe that would help enormously, but somehow I just do not think that civility, kindness and loyalty is going to be the chacteristic of Fourth Wave Feminism.

    Of one thing I can be fairly certain, however, Older women, Ugly women and Fat women are going to be no more desirable to the men of the future than to any of the earlier incarnations of Feminist women.

  328. lavazza1891 says:

    “First comment, they decreased standards to allow women into combat, the standards for men have remained largely the same.”

    Strange. Normally female quotas mean that only the best men can be recruited, which is also necessary to pick up the slack from the female recruits.

  329. Cane Caldo says:

    @OT, er, DW

    Had a peek at your blog. It’s a sad story. Is this how you cope; coming here to spread your poison; maybe see if you can’t convince somebody else of your wisdom and watch them not attempt suicide?

    That would be validating, wouldn’t it? That would mean it’s definitely not your fault.

  330. P Ray says:

    @Opus:
    They’ll “make themselves attractive to men” by restricting mens’ options about who they can have relationships with.
    IMBRA does that for foreign women, there may be new laws for domestic women.
    Consider the Obama idea (paraphrased) a woman is not an adult until 27 (if I remember right).
    A question, what will that do for student loans, since only “legal adults” can sign up for those …

  331. freebird says:

    It’s off topic,but I’ve got some things to say,will be as short and concise as possible.

    Regarding marriage,what most women excepting Mary has forgotten:
    1.Wives do not engage in adultery because that was the marriage agreement.You’re wifely sexuality is HIS because you’ve agreed to be joined as one.It is NOT his job to lead you in that regard,you ARE responsible for your own actions.Anything else is breech of promise and contractual fraud.
    2.Men-your sexuality is HERS.Because you agreed to be joined as one,you ARE responsible for fulfilling that contract.
    Sickness and health
    Prosperity or poverty
    FORSAKING ALL OTHERS
    Till Death Do You part.
    That is-for-always-and forever.

    Love-ya know what real love is?
    Love is when it’s just him and her,going or gone through rough times,just the two of you UNITED against the world.

    The world tells you if the other falls to cut and run.
    You have PROMISED to do otherwise.

    IT seems there are a great number of liars out there.(Divorcee’s and cheaters)

    Marriage is about a life-long bond,not an immediate status of well being.
    Not haaaapy does not qualify as criteria for divorce,unless you are a Godless lying heathen,whom has no respect for worldly contract law either.

    Why would a man continue to pay,for a person whom has shown a lack of consideration,and in light of the misandrist legal system?
    It’s the 2nd class status of married men that enable harlotry.
    In that regard the law is satanic.
    Swearing upon the Bible is a mockery,perhaps that is why it’s be done away with.

    When the leaders are righteous the people are happy,when they are corrupt the people are unhappy.
    Plain as day,the God inspired old law was a blueprint for happiness,and I would postulate that by leaving it behind,that is the root cause of most societal dysfunction.

  332. Phantasmagoria says:

    If you have to lower the standards in order for men to become equal, then what is the point of doing it, exactly? Why can’t men and women be better at different things? Is it really such a bad thing?

    I’ve never understood this obsession with everyone having to be the same. I like being different.

  333. Just1X says:

    “I like being different.”

    Spoken like a true man

  334. P Ray says:

    Why would a man continue to pay,for a person whom has shown a lack of consideration,and in light of the misandrist legal system?
    Women like to tell men You have to trust me.
    While later telling men You didn’t pick the right woman.
    Many men stump up … because they think they’ll be rewarded for it in the end.
    Like many ponzi schemes, only a few peoples’ investments pay out.
    That’s why men need to learn to cut ties early.
    Women can complain about men not being “committed” …
    men can watch women NOT chastising each other to be loyal to their vows.

  335. Feminist Hater says:

    It’s called egalitarianism and doesn’t exist, only in the mind of the delusional. Even Marxists knew it was a fake remedy, which is exactly why they have to dumb down everyone so that we are all indeed ‘equal’. The deconstruction of society is not some freak accident, it’s very calculated, the only incalculable part is the exact time frame within which it reaches a tipping point and collapses in on itself.

  336. Dalrock says:

    @Opus

    I have a new theory, and it concerns the three stages of Feminism:

    Well done! I would add that in addition to wanting to snag the alpha, the other motivation is jealousy. They crave the pride and calm competence that men (not just the alphas) have. This leads them to desperately want to join every predominantly (or even better all) male space. Either way, it tends to look just like you describe. Feminists are painfully uninterested in creating anything new; all of their efforts are to get the men to let them join the club. If too many women join the club the feminists will be just as interested in finding another male space as the men are.

    Along these lines, you mentioned upthread somewhere (or perhaps on a different thread) that Huff Po’s most popular section is the one on Divorce. Coincidentally, I asked a feminist on Reddit the other day why feminists are reduced to demanding that Facebook add a woman to the board given that the very concept is probably only 10 years old. She had been arguing that men and not women create companies because men are the CEOs. I pointed out that the head of Facebook is CEO because he created the company, not the other way around. I asked what women had created instead of simply saying “me too” demanding men let them in. Her answer was Huff Po. I’m not doing it justice, but the exchange was quite funny. Check it out here.

  337. freebird says:

    @opus
    Nice comment.”I just do not think that civility, kindness and loyalty is going to be the chacteristic of Fourth Wave Feminism.”
    Don’t expect integrity,honor,steadfastness,faithfulness,of pursuit of justice either.
    The list could go on and on.
    What you can expect;
    Continual power grabs,relentless nagging,shaming language,false accusation,fictitious statistics,loss of process in the courts,new misandrist laws and taxes,increased police enforcement(violence by proxy) and an overall smugness and arrogance that comes with achieved supremacy.

    End result:Less compliance leading to harsher laws and penalties.Rinse and repeat.Raype!

  338. 2nd Comment (not as exciting) says:

    I suppose that was my fault for misinterpreting your comment at 6:46. Everyone should have the right to vote. I just thought you were pushing for equal representation in physically demanding jobs instead of merit based representation.

  339. Jeremy says:

    I had the chance of a romantic weekend in Venice last month but the man who asked me wanted half the hotel bill up front, and so that was that. In any case, that sort of attitude doesn’t really sweep you off your feet. I know I’m not this year’s top model, but if men who aren’t exactly George Clooney are only willing to be generous with 23-year-old sexpots, they’re also the long-term losers.

    That ^^^ Is hilarious.
    That’s right lady, when you’re in your 40s after decades to get your own survival skills in order it’s still the guys fault to be responsible for your fun, keep telling yourself that it seems to be working well for you.

  340. P Ray says:

    @Dalrock, Opus:
    Great points.

  341. CL says:

    @ Feminist Hater

    Exactly – egalitarianism is functionally impossible. This is one of those things that people need to see for themselves; I don’t think there is any way to make the blind see. Once seen for what it is (a lie) it is so glaring it’s impossible to go back to not seeing.

    As for Doomed Harlot’s claim that she doesn’t come here for tingles or validation, it’s narcissistic supply and a perverse kind of validation through opposition. What they really need is a sound spanking to settle them down.

  342. CL says:

    “they” = women like DH – i.e. snowflakes

  343. freebird says:

    Any “law” that favors one demographic at the cost of another is illegal.That’s why the taxation system is a government entity.It is a corporation.
    There is a lot to be said about the incorporation of the legal system,it renders it illegal by God.

  344. I was thinking today that feminists are like camp followers. It is not a bad strategy really, to wait until men have achieved something, like built a company like Facebook, and then demand a cut. In biology, it is called kleptoparasitism.

  345. freebird says:

    Not sure what happened there,my last post got severely cropped and rewritten,it’s out of context now.

  346. sunshinemary says:

    What I find odd about Doomed Harlot’s situation is that she had caught her husband in the one acceptable reason for divorce, which is infidelity, and instead of telling him to knock it off or she’ll divorce him, she decided to join him in the slop pit. This makes no sense. Feminists encourage women to divorce their husbands (if they’ve managed to find one) over anything and everything (and nothing)…but her husband is doing the one thing the Bible says is a deal breaker and she thinks we ought to commend her for staying with him. I see now that she is likely a yarn-spinning troll, which is okay since trolls can be fun to play with once in a while, but I wouldn’t want anyone who reads this to think that a normal Christian woman should stay with an unrepentant adulterer and condone and even join in the adultery.

  347. jg says:

    I have an issue here. is Goegina Charlotte the split personality and/or alter ego of the harlot that is doomed??

  348. Will says:

    Opus, “Of one thing I can be fairly certain, however, Older women, Ugly women and Fat women are going to be no more desirable to the men of the future than to any of the earlier incarnations of Feminist women.”

    Somebody once said that the large numbers of bitter spinsters will provide a fertile recruiting ground for radical Feminism. So we may end up with a particularly viscious Fourth Wave of Feminism.

  349. P Ray says:

    @sunshinemary
    but I wouldn’t want anyone who reads this to think that a normal Christian woman should stay with an unrepentant adulterer and condone and even join in the adultery.
    The problem is that most women only find men attractive … when those men have other options.
    Many women want to be “the one picked out amongst many by a man with options”.
    Of course, when they get burnt “Men are all cheaters”. Ignoring the fact that as a person with the ability to choose … she may have ignored other guys previously.

  350. sunshinemary says:

    Freebird, I really liked your comment @9:12 a.m.

  351. Feminist Hater says:

    Freebird, I think it’s great. It will keep DH and OT from typing anything new as they try to decipher what it is you actually wrote.

  352. sunshinemary says:

    @P Ray
    I agree that a man with options can be very attractive. Competition is good for the female libido. I know my husband has had offers from female co-workers; I remember this fact whenever I’m tempted to skip my daily run on the treadmill. The difference is that her husband is acting on his options, which is forbidden in the Bible.

  353. P Ray says:

    The difference is that her husband is acting on his options, which is forbidden in the Bible.
    Heh, this is before they get married.
    Even Christian women have sex before marriage (Cue: Don’t judge me! You have looked on women with lust in your heart! Cast the first stone ye who hath not sinned! Only a creep wants to know about a womans’ sexual past!).

  354. sunshinemary says:

    Even Christian women have sex before marriage

    Which is always wrong. Remaining a virgin is best. I wrote a blog post on this last night.

  355. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    What I find odd about Doomed Harlot’s situation is that she had caught her husband in the one acceptable reason for divorce, which is infidelity, and instead of telling him to knock it off or she’ll divorce him, she decided to join him in the slop pit.

    Again, it appears clear to me by her lack of gender association with her husband’s online dating site and dalliances. Hubby is gay, though he’s likely softened the blow by telling her he’s bi-sexual. Since there’s no children, there are no additional cash and prizes to take during a divorce. He goes his way. She goes her way. They remain married simply because a divorce will incur expense and will mean taking on full living expenses.
    If it appears to no longer work, she will divorce him. There is no mention that she will go back to being monogamous with hubby.

  356. Peregrine John says:

    “shopping sprees she used to stave off the effects of age”

    What the heck is she shopping for? Can I get some of that to revert myself to 25 again?

  357. Doomed Harlot says:

    I know I’m being accused of narcissism, but you people are voyeuristic and keep asking questions! And since Dalrock hasn’t specifically asked me to shut up (I will if he does), I will keep answering.

    Sunshine Mary, I’ve never been a Christian so I don’t look to the Bible to determine grounds for divorce. To me, the decision to stay with my husband is very simple. I believe in keeping my promises. I promised to stay with my husband until I die. There is nothing that would induce me to break that promise, other than physical abuse. This is not a difficult decision to make, however, because I love my husband and want to stay with him. My basic take on his activities is that he is a grown man, not my slave, and I have no desire to prevent him from doing what he wants, as long as it doesn’t bring harm to me. Jacquie suggested that this attitude somehow makes me a “second class citizen,” but it doesn’t, because it’s a two-way street. He doesn’t own or control me either. I do understand that this is approach is absolutely incompatible with the Christian view of marriage.

    Rock Throwing Peasant, My husband is straight. His partners are and always have been women.

  358. Alexander says:

    A woman walks into a room, flaunts infidelity and casually tells tales of her husband’s infertility and impotence, and translates “what’s wrong with you” into “please, tell us more.”

    A woman came into my home unprompted, took off her clothes and offered me a special dance.
    I asked her why she did this.
    She called me a voyeur.

    lozzzozoolozzol

  359. CL says:

    He doesn’t own or control me either.

    That’s too bad. Living as room-mates that f*ck (all around town) is a sad state of affairs. I agree with sunshinemary – this is madness.

  360. van Rooinek says:

    Original Trouble —

    I was not being condescending, and I’m sorry it was perceived that way. It was a sincere question. You said you eventually learned how to spot a good man:

    OT: I used to say that there weren’t any good men out there at my age. What that really meant was that I didn’t know how to see them. When I fixed that problem, I found there actually were a lot of good men out there

    Again: Can you be more specific? What exactly did you learn?

    And BTW… no, I am NOT the guy to teach my sons “jerk” lessons. My problem is that even when I finally figured out that most women — even Christian women –prefer jerks, I still couldn’t bring myself to defy God and become one… even if the price was lifetime celibacy. As it happened, I eventually found somebody who appreciated an old-fashioned man, and I got married and lost my virginity at age 38. 10 years and 3 kids later, still happy… but I wish I hadn’t had to wait so long for it. I’d like to see my sons get married a lot younger.

  361. Doomed Harlot says:

    I’d be interested to know why you think so, CL.

  362. Feminist Hater says:

    It’s sad because you are not really a husband and wife, merely fuck buddies with some skin on the side. There is nothing sacrificial or important about your relationship, nothing innocent and decent, merely for sex. There’s no reason to call your relationship a marriage, you’re married in name only. You serve as the ultimate example of what awaits a feminist at the end of the femcunt rainbow. Your name aptly describes your circumstance.

  363. Doomed Harlot says:

    Fuck buddies who sit by each other’s hospital bed and clean up each other’s messes when ill, support each other financially when one is out of work, help edit each other’s writing, and listen to each other’s problems. Not seeing the problem and am really curious to know why people think this is SO terrible.

  364. van Rooinek says:

    Doomed Harlot: I’ve never been a Christian so I don’t look to the Bible to determine grounds for divorce. To me, the decision to stay with my husband is very simple. I believe in keeping my promises. I promised to stay with my husband until I die

    And there it is. The nonbeliever, on this point, is more righteous than a lot of Christians. She’s just KEEPING A PROMISE instead of searching the Bible for a loophole to “justify” breaking it. Awesome.

  365. Feminist Hater says:

    Sure, DH, whatever you say. Marriage is a holy union, you’re treating it like another relationship. Hell, I have friends who I will help when they’re in hospital and help to clean up their messes. But a marriage is just so much more, or should be at least. It’s family, it’s a legacy, it’s the ability to bring life into the world and give that life the best chance possible to achieve and carry on. It’s the love of two people to forsake all others and build a life together. It’s the basis for human endeavour. Without that grounding, humans merely revert to carnal cravings, their base desires. Nothing more than roaming animals looking for their next meal or next thing to fuck.

    Have fun my dear, your next fuck buddy awaits.

  366. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot

    I know I’m being accused of narcissism, but you people are voyeuristic and keep asking questions! And since Dalrock hasn’t specifically asked me to shut up (I will if he does), I will keep answering.

    No more dramafest, please.

  367. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    Most marriage vows (you know, a promise) talk about foresaking all others. Some promises are more promise-y than others when there’s chances for more “decisiveness.”

    So, to sum up the most recent encounter:

    Don’t listen to what women say. Watch what they do.

    and, of course:

    I love you right now

    Living example of the lessons men need to learn about the twaddle feminism has taught our women and unleashed upon our society.

  368. Dalrock says:

    @Original Trouble

    @Dalrock: Huh, go figure.

    I was curious if there was an honest explanation for your reappearing under a new name or if you were simply trolling. Were there an honest explanation you would have shared it instead of continuing the deception. Goodby.

  369. Doomed Harlot says:

    You got it, Dal. I was willing to stop before but you and others appeared to want to engage. (I don’t agree that it’s a dramafest, but your forum, your rules.)

  370. van Rooinek says:

    Feminist Hater is an upstanding Boer

    Baie lekker! There are a lot of Boers here in So-Calif. Enough that there are one or two butcher shops where you can actually get biltong. They’re great people, most of them. However, one trekboer descendant did break my heart rather badly, several years before I met my wife. Such is life.

    Feminist hater, you are perhaps the only person who gets the joke of my my screenname. It has a very different connotation in Afrikaans, I know… which is part of the joke.

  371. Jeremy says:

    @ Dalrock July 25, 2012 at 9:27 am

    …Coincidentally, I asked a feminist on Reddit the other day why feminists are reduced to demanding that Facebook add a woman to the board given that the very concept is probably only 10 years old…

    Actually, embarassingly for the “women who didn’t create” facebook, the concept of facebook/myspace, etc… was not only not new, it had been done before facebook. The idea was already out there at 80% done and operating. In fact, lots of women were actually using that very same service. Before facebook there was myspace. Before myspace there was livejournal. Before livejournal there were personal websites. Facebook is an incremental improvement on a technology that’s more like 20 years old. So, as far as I’m concerned, women had an absolutely equal chance to have created facebook by now. I don’t find it terribly interesting that a man created it, but I do find it tremendously interesting when activist groups insist on “me too” for an essentially ‘ancient’ technological concept that the activist group might have created if they had calmed down and actually been sociologically creative rather than destructive.

    All that said, I’m not sure I would ever exactly be proud of Facebook as a creation of mine.

  372. driversuz says:

    More excellent comments, this thread is awesome! (Please feel sorry for me because I’m too busy this week to follow closely. sadface) (Finally moving next week, after a 7 month wait!!!! happyface)

    Freebird, I’ve come to the point where I sometimes skim through a thread looking for your name. I like the way you think. Especially this:
    “Love is when it’s just him and her,going or gone through rough times,just the two of you UNITED against the world.”

    That is the essence of love and marriage. Feeeelings are a luxury, and our can afford far too much luxury than is good for us.

    Suz

  373. koevoet says:

    Feminist Hater, van Rooinek – unfortunately I cannot join you ouens to create an Afrikaaner trifecta. I am not a Boer. I just admire them.

  374. Feminist Hater says:

    VR, moenie my maak lag nie, haha. Praat jy ‘n biejtie Nederlands of Afrikaans?

    Sorry about the Boere meisie breaking your heart, they are rather pretty though, not going to apologise over that. And yea, since 1994 over 1 million of us have left South Africa, to the USA, Australia, New Zealand and especially Europe. Building little South Africa’s all over the place.

    “Rooinek” was used here against the British soldiers, since most Boers were tanned and the English soldiers would constantly get sun burnt on their necks, being visible above their coats. Thinking about that, during the First Boer war, the British were still wearing their redcoats and at the end of the second Boer war they changed to their uniforms to khaki. Guess they figured it wasn’t helping…

    Talking about independence, something us Boers value too. We don’t particularly like government or social programs or Imperialism. We hate them so much we fought the entire British Empire in a war we could never win.

    Van Rooinek merely means ‘from Redneck’, basically saying your from that specific group of people, the joke is probably played because redneck is derogatory, whereas it’s something to actually be proud of…

  375. Jeremy says:

    Hrm, I’m a new commenter here and the extent to which blogs of this topic existed is also somewhat new to me. The concepts are not new to me. The frustration borne by the men who post here is absolutely NOT new to me.

    Having read this thread, I can honestly say that I think you guys are being too hard on Doomed Harlot. I think you’ve got someone in DH who is actually in our corner, she’s actually rooting for us. She may identify with feminism (a term most of us have grown to hate), but she isn’t stupid, she writes as if she clearly knows that with equality comes responsibility. I would suggest to you, DH, that you need to remember that not all women understand the world as you do.

    I would not consider DH to be a slut any more than I would consider a man who managed to become a successful player to be morally repugnant. That’s my own moral bent, however, I’m not advocating any belief system there, I’m simply saying that whatever her values are, they seem to be quite consistent with equality.

    I think, however, that DH hasn’t really addressed the situation. DH, you’re in a relationship that works for you, that’s great. But the topic of Dalrocks current post was that of the dating world, which is quite different from the comfortably-in-a-long-term-partnership world. What would you say about the ladies out there who are letting ridiculous ideas in their heads ruin true equality in dating?

  376. Rock Throwing Peasant says:

    My experience with Boer culture was reading a great book, The Defence of Duffers Drift. Read it while I was serving in Germany. Military classic. Well, I read that and The Power of One.

  377. sunshinemary says:

    Suz, I agree with you about that great quote from freebird. That’s just how it feels to be in a long-term, til-death-do-us-part marriage, and there is nothing better this side of heaven.

    Good luck with your move! If you need a laugh, come join me over at ManBoobz in the Hawaiian Libertarian thread, where they seem to feel I’m some sort of female agent sent from MRA Headquarters to oppress their equality-loving selves…and I’ve been called a “pr1ck” too, which was rather disconcerting for a woman who is secure in her femininity…good times, good times.

  378. Pingback: Father Knows Best: Live Bait Edition « Patriactionary

  379. van Rooinek says:

    Feminist Hater… I’m the American variety of redneck. :-)

  380. ybm says:

    Well i for one just caught up with this thread and I am truly delighted that I precipitated that….disclosure.

    As for the harlot: Why am I thinking what is really going on is that hubby isn’t getting any out of the ‘open relationship’ unless its with her bucks, or sloppy seconds. her behaviour is the doom of your western women: They want to lash out and give some ‘payback’ for an oppression they never experienced, to men who have done no oppressing. I’m sure her beta boy hubby has integrating this into his mind (as he ‘married’ a feminist willingly) so he accepts his humiliation.

    The harlot, as I figured, completely proved my point about desiring control not power. She controls her ‘husband’ by humiliating him for being impotent while servicing other men, probably on their own marital bed. She controls the other men by servicing them then disposes of them after she is finished, and returns to beta boy hubby.

    that’s what I call a home run, I am tickled pink to have called it so precisely.

  381. van Rooinek says:

    her behaviour is the doom of your western women: They want to lash out and give some ‘payback’ for an oppression they never experienced, to men who have done no oppressing.

    Sounds a lot like a certain ethnic group…

  382. van Rooinek says:

    we have huge swathes of fundamentalism in the United States, a culture that absolutely promotes female submission

    50 Shades of Grey doesn’t strike me as fundamentalist…

  383. ybm says:

    van Rooinek says:
    July 25, 2012 at 4:26 pm

    Don’t use my words to promote whatever ‘human biodiversity’ beliefs you have. I want nothing to do with your ethic arguments.

  384. Anonymous Reader says:

    RT Peasant, you might find Donald Morris’s “The Washing of the Spears” to be an interesting read – it amounts to a history of southern Africa from the 1600′s up to the 19th century, but all that history is provided to explain the “how” and “why” of both Isandlwanda and Rouke’s Drift. My heroes? The engineers, and not just at Rouke’s Drift.

    http://www.bookfinder.com/search/?author=&title=washing+of+the+spears&lang=en&isbn=&submit=Search&new_used=*&destination=us&currency=USD&mode=basic&st=sr&ac=qr

    Feminist Hater, I assume you are familiar with the writings of Deneys Reitz?

  385. van Rooinek says:

    ybm — Don’t use my words to promote whatever ‘human biodiversity’ beliefs you have.

    Don’t put words in my mouth. I said nothing whatsoever about human biodiversity — only behavior.

  386. Feminist Hater says:

    Familiar with Mr Reitz, obviously, but not his writing. Took a gander on the interwebs and he’s written quite a bit about being a Kommando. Just like Smuts, quite a few of these Boers soldiers turned their attention to other avenues, instead of the Boer people, after the war. Smuts and Reitz went more liberal and Smuts in particular went about creating his idea of a United Global Nation, i.e. the League of Nations.

    Interesting nonetheless, perhaps, when I have some time on my hands, I shall read his trilogy.

  387. Elaine says:

    I’m a woman, but posters like DH annoy the shitz out of me. Please, nobody wants to know of the endless details about your personal situation. Why anyone would want to share such personal information such as hubby’s impotence is beyond me. A personal ancedote or two is fine (without the intimate or in this case embarassing details), but to go on and on …geez. This is a male forum so get to the point, discuss the topic in a concise way, be smart, humorous, if possible and keep the female “this is my never ending life story” verba-fest to the female forums.

    [D: Agreed. Welcome to the blog.]

  388. Doomed Harlot says:

    Thanks Jeremy!!!! I am very grateful that you are not tarring me with the “no responsibility” brush. Indeed, responsibility as well as equal status and privilege absolutely are a foundation of any sensible feminism, in my opinion. That’s a crucial point and I appreciate that you see me trying to make it.

    You asked what I think about ladies out there who let foolish ideas ruin true equality in dating. Well, I admit that I absolutely cringe when I hear about women who insist on old time roles in dating (he has to initiate, pay, hold the door, etc.). I do think it is a wrongheaded and silly approach. I have two theories as to why that attitude exists: (1) Society is in flux. Changes in social roles and mores have been so rapid that our culture hasn’t achieved perfect consistency yet. For example, I work with a number of men who are quite egalitarian but still would be very uncomfortable walking ahead of me through a door. Also, most people don’t sit and analyze this stuff that carefully. The average woman on a date has absorbed a lot of feminist ideas but isn’t a doctrinaire feminist who has thought through whether every aspect of her life corresponds with egalitarianism.

    (2) My second theory – well, it is really an observation – is going to sound really snotty. But I think there is a strong class component to all this. The more a woman comes from a less educated family or is herself uneducated, or is from a more working class background, the more likely she is to get caught up in the trappings of wanting a man to pay for the date and do the planning and asking, and open the car door for her and all that crap. There is also breed of sort of nouveau-priviliged women who are the same way. Now let me be clear that I don’t think there is any shame in a working class background. (My husband is rightfully proud of his blue collar roots.). But we are a class conscious society and people from less privileged backgrounds often want to ape what they think “classy” manners are. They are not thinking about feminism. They are thinking about etiquette, which they wrongly conflate with old fashioned forms rather than the substantive graciousness, warmth, and reciprocation good manners really call for.

    Illustrative anecdote: My husband’s friend married a nice but misguidedwoman from a hardscrabble background (ok, I’m lying, she was actually a horror show). The wives of my husband and his friends (including me) asked her about how she and her husband got together. She said, “Oh well, I almost didn’t give Jim a second chance. He didn’t call me for a whole week after we first went out and usually I don’t tolerate that, but he was very apologetic. But normally if a whole week goes by, I am very angry because I don’t like waiting around.”. The other wife (a Smith grad) and I said unison,”Why didn’t you just call him?”. Her haughty reply, “My parents didn’t raise me that way.”. Our response – stunned disbelief, mouths gaping, followed by polite recovery, “Ahhh, um, yes, um, I see.”

  389. Guestopher says:

    “Once, wining and dining grown-up members of my sex…” See women in the 18-28 age range are grown-up members of the female sex. Implying otherwise is a classic move to try to shame men about their sexual desires.

    Lady, now that you’re single in your 40′s you have to compete with other grown women in their 20′s for attention from men. You squandered over ten years of grown-up sexual advantage. You were too busy running away from the responsibilities of adulthood (fine, call it “young adulthood” if you want) to realize that you were fucking your shit up by not settling down.

  390. Mackrochip says:

    “What I find odd about Doomed Harlot’s situation is that she had caught her husband in the one acceptable reason for divorce, which is infidelity, and instead of telling him to knock it off or she’ll divorce him, she decided to join him in the slop pit.”

    From my research this seem to be the common trajectory for open marriages. One spouse is caught cheating and then proposes open because they don’t want to lose their spouse. The other spouse agrees because they also don’t want to lose their spouse or they are at the point in the marriage where they could make use of a little extra spice too.

    “My 18 year old talks to me, not her mum, about relationship issues. She knows my views, and affects to find them reactionary and horrifying, but she still listens. Her boyfriend seems nice and respectful. But I don’t trust him, of course. I was his age once.”

    Surely you’re not suggesting that male sexuality is inherently untrustworthy, are you?

  391. Joshua says:

    Of course he is Mackrochip. But even more appalling he thinks his daughter isn’t having sex.

  392. Anne Lee says:

    Maybe we should extend this conversation further–are readers aware that there is a growing trend in older single women to seduce younger men as trophies? There are websites out there for “cougars” the name given to this group of women. No longer able to conceive and unable to be alone with themselves, they have turned the seduction of young men into a national fem/nazi approved sporing event!

  393. Anne Lee says:

    Excuse me–that should read “Sporting”

  394. koevoet says:

    Anne, so you didn’t mean ‘sporing’ – a dormant nonreproductive body formed by certain bacteria in response to adverse environmental conditions?

  395. evilalpha says:

    @Anne Lee

    Feminizas are queens of cognitive dissonance and ego protection. I’m sure they even paint such endeavors as “liberation to do what men have always done”, but in truth these women aren’t seducing anyone. Men their age don’t want them and they are simply orifices of least resistance for my generation.

  396. Ark says:

    WOW…

    I know this is an old post. After having entered a search this morning on a related issue, I found myself here… and subsequently spent my entire day in/out of this discussion until having just now finished it.

    After reading through all of this, i find that I am OK with being a 39 year old man who has no children, and that it is OK to be completely and totally on my own, and that it is OK to enjoy the things I enjoy without feeling external “guilt”, and that it is OK for me to pursue happiness and success which may not include companionship. Thank you!

    I knew all of these things already but really needed some affirmation, and the endless string of well thought out responses and dialogue here have made everything very clear to me.

    Happy New Year to you all ~ *

  397. Princess21 says:

    I have read more than several of of posts, Dalrock.

    No wonder lots of older Western women are converting to Islam and younger women prefering Muslim men. Middle eastern men are passionate about women, and of most ages. A young middle eastern man will still look at a woman in her 30′s and 40′s as still being feminine, womanly, and therefore attractive. Muslim men are looking for marriage, especially to western women who convered to Islam, as they describe it as though they’ve one the “lottery.” They have strong ideas about love, and being faithful in marriage is a top priority, unlike how western chrisitan men have been influenced by their american environment. Muslim men are taught how to behave masculine and provide from a young age, and done by their muslim mothers. Real muslim is defined as one who in in practice of it, not merely calling themsleves that because of their name or heritage.

    I am a young female who comes from a wealthy and very Christian family, and I am well educated. I have only ever had muslim boyfriends, all of which have proposed marriage to me, and one is proposing marriage for the 4395340983 time over four years, and I will indeed accept even though my Christian grandmother said that she hopes to live long enough to see my wedding, at which she attempted to make me promise that it will be to a western chirstian man.

    NO THANK YOU! and Western women, please be in search of Muslim men if you are in your 20′s, 30′s and 40′s. There are middle eastern men of all ages looking for a suitable wife, and you will find many wealthy ones living in the UAE and gulf areas who find us to be exotic and beautiful. Women in Islam have a contract outlining their rights, and how much the man must provide through the marriage and whether or not she would like to be the only wife (yes, women do have rights!).

    Leave these American men alone, they’re a waste of time and you’ve had your fun with them and sometimes without success. Now it is time to find a middle eastern man.

  398. Princess21 says:

    Up 100,000 converts in the UK – up from around 60,000 in 2001 – with white women leading the trend, according to research for the Faith Matters organisation. A study by Swansea University, on behalf of Faith Matters, found 5,200 people converted to Islam in the UK last year.

    MORE AND MORE American Christian women are converting to islam because they prefer muslim men as it is more than acceptable to marry a much older woman, and many do it. Muslim men want to be married fast and HAVE CHILDREN STRAIGHT AWAY.

    This is perfect for the western women in their 30′s!!!!

    Western men distrust the women’s intentions at that age and stay away (as outlined in many of the posts your website about this issue). Muslim men and western women in their 30′s are made for each other, including young women such as myself in my early 20′s who find older men dull and young western men as not being able or ready to commit in the same way that a muslim is taught to readily behave like

  399. Princess21 says:

    Anyhow, that having been said, I do enjoy reading your articles on advice and how to choose a male to marry, the practice of self control, etc, the male showing leadership, and has helped me attract muslim men. Thank you, and I look forward to happily reading more of your posts, but keep in mind youg single men, you now have increasing competition.

    Many thanks again! =)

  400. Pingback: Manosphere: Marriage and Age (Round 2) | 3rd Millenium Men

  401. Perspective says:

    Princess21-Congratulations and best wishes to you and your Fiance. It’s refreshing to hear a non-stereotypical and open-minded view of Muslim men, as opposed to the usual misconceptions that I’ve often heard. I also appreciate your encouragment to American women in their 30′s looking to marry. However, as great as I think it is that your open to another culture and faith, and I do know of American Christian women and Muslim Middle Eastern men couples that are quite happily married, I don’t necessarily think that this would be the best route for women who are not prepared to deal with the racial, cultural and religious differences that can result from such unions. I’m not trying to discourage it or say that it could never work, I just think that for those who are unwilling or unable to overcome these differences, frustration and heartbreak (on both ends); rather than a happy marriage can result. Unfortunately, I’ve seen this happen enough times to know, even with couples in love. For this reason, I would hope that non-Middle eastern/Non-Muslim women considering a marriage with a Muslim Middle Eastern man, would try to learn as much about the culture and faith as possible, and would be willing to discuss important issues before marriage such as how their children will be raised, etc. However, I’m sure you’ve already considered all this, as you seem quite intelligent and thoughtful based on your posts, but for those who perhaps have not, I just thought it would be helpful to mention, for what it’s worth. Once again, best wishes to you and your fiance and congratulations on your upcoming nuptials:)

  402. Rl says:

    There is no love and romance people. It is all business like most of everything else in life. It is all about wheeling and dealing. What is in it for me?

  403. Michael says:

    @ RI

    “What is in it for me?”

    -When it comes to an older spent women? NOTHING. Absolutely nothing. Well, except maybe easy access – after all long line of guys. Count me out.

  404. RL says:

    Older MILF and Cougars are not totally hideous and unappealing. Some older females are well kept in the gym, fashion sense wise, and cosmetically. They still look sexy hot and males of all ages would be more than happy to hop into bed with them. The out of shape ones who let themselves go would have no such market value just like a bankrupt company stock or bond.

  405. Michael says:

    RL describes older MILF and cougars as “not totally hideous and unappealing”. Is a that the best you can do. Because they are totally hideous and I appealing. So throw them out with the trash where they belong. Who cares if they are desperately well kept at the gym with fashion and cosmetic sense? They have to be. Whereas younger females in their primes don’t. On the inside these women are old houses with high miles, good maintenance and new paint jobs. But they are old houses nonetheless. If that’s the best you can do go ahead and sign the lease. Count me out.

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