The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage

I haven’t done a Brothers Grimm post in over a year;  starting with this post I intend to rectify that.

One of the common themes in the Grimm tales is the importance of hard work.  While laziness in general is called out for derision, special attention is given to housework .  You can see this with Cinderella and King Roughbeard.  Our tale today also stresses the importance of housework, but even more so it is focused on combating the whispers (with the twist that one could argue that it is aimed at men).  Since this is a short tale and to the best of my knowledge in the public domain, I will include the entire story below.  To make it easier to read I won’t place it in blockquotes.  The version below is the translation from Margaret Taylor in 1884.  Enjoy.

Note:  If you are used to the Disney tales the original Grimm tales are nothing like them.  They frequently bring home their harsh message with great force, and the tale below is no exception.

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The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage

Once on a time a mouse, a bird, and a sausage became companions, kept house together, lived well and happily with each other, and wonderfully increased their possessions. The bird’s work was to fly every day into the forest and bring back wood. The mouse had to carry water, light the fire, and lay the table, but the sausage had to cook.

He who is too well off is always longing for something new. One day, therefore, the bird met with another bird, on the way, to whom it related its excellent circumstances and boasted of them. The other bird, however, called it a poor simpleton for his hard work, but said that the two at home had good times. For when the mouse had made her fire and carried her water, she went into her little room to rest until they called her to lay the table. The sausage stayed by the pot, saw that the food was cooking well, and, when it was nearly time for dinner, it rolled itself once or twice through the broth or vegetables and then they were buttered, salted, and ready. When the bird came home and laid his burden down, they sat down to dinner, and after they had had their meal, they slept their fill till next morning, and that was a splendid life.

Next day the bird, prompted by the other bird, would go no more into the wood, saying that he had been servant long enough, and had been made a fool of by them, and that they must change about for once, and try to arrange it in another way. And, though the mouse and the sausage also begged most earnestly, the bird would have his way, and said it must be tried. They cast lots about it, and the lot fell on the sausage who was to carry wood, the mouse became cook, and the bird was to fetch water.

What happened? The little sausage went out towards the wood, the little bird lighted the fire, the mouse stayed by the pot and waited alone until little sausage came home and brought wood for next day. But the little sausage stayed so long on the road that they both feared something was amiss, and the bird flew out a little way in the air to meet it. Not far off, however, it met a dog on the road who had fallen on the poor sausage as lawful booty, and had seized and swallowed it. The bird charged the dog with an act of barefaced robbery, but it was in vain to speak, for the dog said he had found forged letters on the sausage, on which account its life was forfeited to him.

The bird sadly took up the wood, flew home, and related what he had seen and heard. They were much troubled, but agreed to do their best and remain together. The bird therefore laid the cloth, and the mouse made ready the food, and wanted to dress it, and to get into the pot as the sausage used to do, and roll and creep amongst the vegetables to mix them; but before she got into the midst of them she was stopped, and lost her skin and hair and life in the attempt.

When the bird came to carry up the dinner, no cook was there. In its distress the bird threw the wood here and there, called and searched, but no cook was to be found! Owing to his carelessness the wood caught fire, so that a conflagration ensued, the bird hastened to fetch water, and then the bucket dropped from his claws into the well, and he fell down with it, and could not recover himself, but had to drown there.

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Update:  The version my wife grew up with was translated by MRS. H. B. PAULL in 1885.  That version ends with:

And all this happened because one little bird listened to another who was jealous of the happy little family at home, and from being discontented and changing their arrangements they all met with their death.

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107 Responses to The Mouse, the Bird, and the Sausage

  1. deti says:

    here’s a little update of today’s tale:

    Once upon a time time there was a husband, a wife and a child. They all lived together happily because each knew their roles and their places. The husband’s job was to work, earn money, and fix the household things. The wife’s job was to take care of the house, cook, clean and care for the child. The child’s task was to learn from the husband and wife, and obey them.

    When shopping for groceries the wife met another woman. The other woman was a former wife who said she left her husband because she was not haaaaappy. She has since met and slept with a number of other men and says she is now ecstatic. The wife said she was happy with her husband and child, but the other woman told the wife she deserved better and should not have to work so hard.

    The wife returned home and told the husband “I’m not haaaaappy!” The wife decided to get a job. The house did not work as well, and when the husband tried to do the housework and child care, most things did not get done. The wife lost respect for her husband and met a man at her job, and cheated on the husband. The child became increasingly angry, disobedient and lethargic at seeing wife and husband disagreeing. Wife left husband and moved out to her own place with the child.

    The husband worked much less to try to limit his alimony and child support payments. Eventually he ended up in jail. The wife lost her job due to cutbacks and moved in with her parents. She gained 50 pounds and now cougars it up in the bars. The child got kicked out of school, was knocked up at age 16, had an abortion, dropped out of high school, and is now a fledgling alcoholic. She f**cks badboys and douchebags for fun at the parties she attends with her friends.

  2. Alexander says:

    I look forward to the Disneyfied version of the updated version… if it doesn’t exist already.

  3. alphamission says:

    Nah Deti, your adaptation is not quite tragic enough to match. A cougar, a prisoner, and a slut for final fates? Should be worse.

  4. Nick Steves says:

    And all this happened because one little bird listened to another who was jealous of the happy little family at home, and from being discontented and changing their arrangements they all met with their death.

    That’s about the most concise history of the last century that I’ve even seen. Yet it wasn’t history at all, but prophecy.

  5. Stingray says:

    The Disneyfied version is simple. The wife marries the handsome prince who takes her back to be his princess and he then becomes her kitchen bitch.

  6. Cane Caldo says:

    One of my favorites, and I’m glad these will be more frequent as they are what initially interested me in your blog.

    Dwayne Johnson translates this one well: Shut yer mouth and know yer role.

    The one about the cat, the mouse, and the cream is particularly ripe for a Dalrock exposition.

  7. sunshinemary says:

    I’m curious as to where everyone lies on the issue of women working outside the home. I see it more as being careerist versus family-oriented, rather than a hard and fast rule of working vs. at-home. I worked full time and built a career, but my husband asked me to quit and I was happy to do so. However, the line of work I was in required licensure, and my husband agrees that I can work one half-day per week just in order to maintain my license, just in case my income should ever be needed. However, he makes plenty of money and is in a stable field, so it’s unlikely we would ever need for me to work. It’s probably just a vanity thing for me; it’s hard on a woman’s ego when she’s constantly being asked what she does and is treated with barely-concealed contempt when she admits she doesn’t work. Even my husband’s family asks me when I’m going to go back to my career – and remember, I have a large number of children at home. So, in reality, the little bird might not be so unhappy, it just might be that she feels kind of embarrassed.

  8. poester99 says:

    Ha!
    Recently unemployed (from daily soul-sucking drudgery), and I love the look of discomfort on people’s faced when they ask “so what do you do?”, and I say, “nothing”, and I’m pretty obviously living well. There are other, *better* ways to live and I’m Just starting to find them…

  9. Stingray says:

    Sunshinemary,

    I know it’s hard, but don’t EVER be embarrassed because of what you do. If any woman, or man, gives you that barely – concealed contempt return it with that little knowing smile that says you know something incredibly important that they don’t know and leave it at that. Also, read this:

    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2012/05/veterans-of-endless-war.html

    I don’t mean to take away from the day yesterday, but this is an important thing for mother’s to understand and I think it will make you feel better in your chosen path.

  10. Paul says:

    sunshinemary

    I’d note that in many parts of the world there’s not much choice as to both people working. Even in some of the more developed countries, it takes all of a salary to pay for the house (typically the man’s as it’s higher) and another to pay the groceries and other household bills. Thanks to still intact families to older generations, child care is not usually an expense, but taken care of by the family. This model is obviously unsustainable, as the newer generations become increasingly fragmented and dysfunctional and there are no more intact families from bygone generations to rely on.

    What does this have to do with your post, you ask? The fact that in your case, unlike the ones I’ve seen elsewhere, you have the luxury of choice. You get to stay at home and have you and the children be well provided for, and to keep your options open. And what are the factors affecting your choice, by your own admission? Your vanity and ego.

    So, you get to choose between your own egotistical self-gratification for it’s own sake, or the care of the large number of your children. I am sorry, but to my mind, there is not even a choice to made there; I’m sorry kids, it’s off to a daycare for you, because I don’t want to lose my street cred with the sisterhood. Actions speak way louder than words, and such an act would tell them exactly what a low priority they are, and they will get that even if they’re very young. I can tell you that from personal experience, I’m constantly having to deal with the fallout from my ex’s showing by her actions how little my daughter means to her, protestations of ‘mommy loves you and would do anything for you aside’.

  11. sunshinemary says:

    Indeed, Paul, I agree with you completely. I only wanted to point out that unless a woman has really thought through this, the pressure to conform to careerist ideals can be really discomfiting. I’ve kept my options open only in that I continue to work one half-day per week (with my husband’s express permission; remember that I obeyed his request to leave my full-time career) but you are right in that it assuages my ego sometimes. I admit it, though I don’t particularly like that about myself. And I’ve really thought through things and have a fair degree of awareness; most women haven’t, and when they are constantly feeling that pressure and contempt about their choice to stay home, it’s no wonder they go back to work. It is generally bad for the children to be in the care of people who do not love them. Incidentally, my children do not go to day-care on my half-day.

  12. Cane Caldo says:

    The problem, to me, isn’t whether my wife works outside the home or not. It’s whether her priorities ever deviate from this order: me, kids, home, work. Anything else is unacceptable. There is a strong temptation for working wives to put work at the front of that list. That’s totally unacceptable.

  13. Jacquie says:

    @sunshinemary

    I’ve stayed home for all of our married life, took care of the house, children and homeschooled. In recent years I did work some outiside the home but it was difficult. My husband’s schedule fluxuates from day to day so for me to work outside sometimes makes our time together limited if at all. All but the youngest have moved out; she attends community college and works.
    My husband and I have discussed my working and we would both like if I could find something I could do from home so that it would work around his schedule and I would be available to spend time with him when he is home. It’s not an easy task, but neither has been living on one income. We’ve stretched every penny that came in and we lived without many of the luxuries that others around us had. We always had everything we needed, we got the extras when we could, even if they were second hand, and plenty of time together, even when my husband worked nights he got to spend alot of time with the kids and me. Some things we got right over the years.

  14. If only that lying, meddling other bird had met some inglorious fate for the damage she caused.

    Instead, she is given a platform to espouse her lies on an ever-more-grand scale.

  15. AJ Miller says:

    You are a good woman sunshine. Bravo!

    Remember that the Proverbs 21 woman stayed at home. All her work was to satisfy and keep her household which she very successful in doing.

    I must agree that we live in uncertain times. Keeping your licensure active is smart and responsible in case you have to work full-time. That is not anti-christian nor anti-family in my book. Au contraire! By doing so, you ensure the well-being of your whole family.

  16. The Antigrrrl says:

    @Sunshine

    In fields where it requires licensure, like my own, I consider it prudent to keep it up. If you are doing it solely for an ego boost it is one thing, but it is important that both adults be able to make an income if necessary. Stuff (unfortunately) happens.

  17. Suz says:

    What Cane said.
    Many women must work, and most (without children to care for) probably should, but no wife should put her career above her husband’s (unless she’s the primary breadwinner, and good luck with that for any number of reasons…)

    SunshineMary, I think you’re doing exactly the right thing for your family. Keeping your license current can become an indispensable asset in an uncertain world. You are essentially maintaining an insurance policy, and if your ego appreciates it as well, there’s little harm in that. Anything can happen. A couple of months ago, my healthy and successful lawyer brother-in-law had a seizure. At the ER they found a baseball-sized tumor in his brain, which had grown so slowly as not to affect his abilities except for a little forgetfulness in recent months. A week later 1/2 of his left frontal lobe was removed. Amazingly, he’s alive and not completely disabled, but he will never earn another paycheck. He could live another year, or another twenty years. Sis has been a SAHM, and attended grad school while their daughter was in college these past few years; her paid career ended 22 years ago. With her new skills and current contacts, she will be able to keep a roof over their heads. Your work is not presently a career; it’s a safety net.

  18. john says:

    Was that ‘other’ birds beak larger?

  19. sunshinemary says:

    So, I’m going to sound like I’m talking out of both sides of my mouth right now, but so be it. I’m trying to clarify my own thinking on this issue.

    Truthfully, I think it’s best for society if women in general are not in the paid workforce (unless a woman’s husband specifically requests her to work for some reason). Saying that it’s okay for women , either with or without children, to work to me just opens up a door that should stay shut. (In this case, I’m personally doing what I think is not best for society in general).

    In no particular order, here’s why I think women working is a bad idea.

    1. It takes her focus away from what should be her priorities. I have actually heard women say they could not stand to be home with their children all day and that they are better mothers because they work full time. My thought is, “No, you’re not a better mother. You’re a horrible mother for saying that you CHOOSE to work because you can’t stand the self-sacrifice needed to care for your children.” Also, her house is likely to be less clean unless she can afford help, and her family is more likely to eat crappy, processed food.

    2. Every university slot that a woman takes is one that is not available to a man. In my case, I feel rather guilty about this; I attended a very prestigious university and because I came from a poor family, the tax payers paid for me to attend it, both for undergraduate and graduate school. They have not received the return on their investment because now I am barely in the workforce. I know a female pediatrician who works one day per week. I think it’s great that she wants to be home with her four children, but had a man gotten her place in medical school, he’d likely be working full time.

    3. Working outside the home gives women the option to divorce for trivial reasons. If women were generally barred from the workforce, they would have to stay married even if they weren’t happy. A happy marriage is better than a miserable marriage, but even a miserable marriage is better for the children than a divorce. Also, a miserable marriage might be made better down the road if the couple stays together.

    4. It allows her to see herself as her husband’s equal in terms of power and decision-making. Although women are of equal worth as men in God’s sight, the Bible specifically teaches women that they are not to be the final decision-maker at home. Could this “mutual submission” crap actually have gotten started without women having the economic power to force men to submit by threatening to leave? And if she has a position of power at work, how likely is it that she’s going to have an easy time transitioning from in-charge to submission when she walks through the door in the evening? This was ALWAYS a problem for me when I had a career.

    5. Women are not as good in the workforce as men generally are. They miss more days of work, work fewer hours, and are not as physically capable. Example: driving down the expressway the other day I was stuck in a construction traffic jam. There were two women on the construction crew, both of whom were holding the “slow, construction area” flags. It’s not likely even one of them was needed to do that, let alone two, but what else were they going to do? They were dead weight, just taking up space and money.

    6. Men without jobs are not going to marry. More jobs for women = fewer jobs for men = fewer marriage proposals for women = an increase in slutdom.

    I think a lot of us might agree that having women in the workforce is a bad idea, and yet most of us work anyway. I think it’s part of the driving force between a lot of what ails our society. I might be wrong on some of this, though, so I am very open to correction/alternate ideas.

  20. Joey says:

    Here is an article possibly written by the bird that caused discontent in the first place: http://www.dailylife.com.au/news-and-views/dl-opinion/so-maybe-you-want-to-be-a-spinster-20120615-20e9u.html

  21. Dalrock says:

    @SunshineMary

    Example: driving down the expressway the other day I was stuck in a construction traffic jam. There were two women on the construction crew, both of whom were holding the “slow, construction area” flags. It’s not likely even one of them was needed to do that, let alone two, but what else were they going to do? They were dead weight, just taking up space and money.

    Keoni Galt describes this in detail in this Spearhead article.

  22. Meyer says:

    OT, but there may yet be hope for this country–

    I was doing some lawn work when a guy walked by on the opposite sidewalk. He looked to be in his early 20′s, and was pulling a wagon with a girl in it who was maybe four. At the same time, he was lecturing her about how girls these days don’t respect their bodies, because they’re not raised well, and they’ll give it up to any low-life, and so on. Kind of funny, but then, maybe we do need to start earlier with sex ed.

  23. @Sunshinemary
    Excellent comment. You need to write more….start a blog….or….if I may…..there are 3 writers at mine and you are welcome there. Just post a comment and I will email you access. I’m sorry Dalrock , delete that if its bad form. My intent is not nefarious I assure you.

    [D: Not a problem.]

  24. @sunshinemary….again
    “””it’s hard on a woman’s ego when she’s constantly being asked what she does and is treated with barely-concealed contempt when she admits she doesn’t work”””
    ————————————————————-
    Is that real? Its a genuine question, and I ask it because I see women as incredibly over sensitive to almost everything, Christian women have a self esteem crisis and there is not a good reason for it, its like peer pressure or something makes women seek things that they can perceive as being harmful to their esteem.

  25. sunshinemary says:

    Dalrock noted: “Keoni Galt describes this in detail in this Spearhead article.”

    Keoni has an excellent style of writing. The situation he describes is infuriating. What can one do upon reading such a thing but say, “Even so, come Lord Jesus.” Governmental anti-discrimination laws have taken on a life of their own and become an out-of-control monster which consumes innovation and productivity.

    empath – You are kind. I believe that my comment above was actually a very rudimentary argument, stating things we all already know. I thought perhaps it would flush out a deeper level of analysis from some of you who are regular commenters here. I would like to do a very occasional guest post on a blog. I will need to discuss your orientation with you first (spiritual orientation, not sexual of course). I will visit your blog to do so.

    Meyer wrote: “Kind of funny, but then, maybe we do need to start earlier with sex ed.”

    I respectfully disagree. I do not think sex ed is appropriate for small children. I think children receive too much information and too much sexual stimulation via media as it is. I think we need to start morality training earlier and more forcefully.

  26. sunshinemary says:

    Empath asked a questions: @sunshinemary….again
    “””it’s hard on a woman’s ego when she’s constantly being asked what she does and is treated with barely-concealed contempt when she admits she doesn’t work”””
    ————————————————————-
    Is that real? Its a genuine question, and I ask it because I see women as incredibly over sensitive to almost everything, Christian women have a self esteem crisis and there is not a good reason for it, its like peer pressure or something makes women seek things that they can perceive as being harmful to their esteem.”

    How perceptive of you to notice; we are in fact very sensitive to the point of feeling criticized even when there was no criticism given. However, two points I want to mention:

    1. I live in a town that is home to a major university with one of the top hospitals in the country. Most of my friends work full- or part- time. The few who don’t work are apologetic when discussing that they stay home. They often mention what kind of jobs they will have as soon as their youngest child is finally in school. Everyone has a degree here, even the garbage collectors, so you can’t derive any status by mentioning where you received your unused degree from. I am probably hyper sensitive to the fact that many of the women I graduated with have very serious careers; I heard an interview on NPR with one of them last year about a research study she had just completed. When asked, I try to make my half-day per week job sound like it’s something more serious than it is because suddenly I feel a little embarrassed. Perhaps they aren’t meaning to be contemptuous, but I have been told by old college friends that a) they cannot believe how many children I have (some of them have one child but most have none) and b) they thought I’d finish my PhD and do research instead of going the clinical route (clinical work is seen as less prestigious than research). Like most housewives, I am ALWAYS asked what I’ll do when our youngest is finally in kindergarten, as if children stop needing their mothers when they go to school.
    2. Women insult other women, and men don’t even notice it. We deliver insults via the insincere compliment. Example, “Well, I just think it’s GREAT that you stay home with ALL those kids, SunshineMary. I could never stand it, I just don’t have the patience for it, and I don’t have YOUR creativity so I’d just be bored to death. I have to go to work or I’d just have waaaay too much time on my hands.” It sounds like a compliment to you. Trust me, it isn’t. Suz, Jacquie, back me up on the fact that women are vicious in a completely syrupy way.
    3. My husband’s family suspects I am up to no good at home all day here. It’s not a normal thing for a woman to do in their family. Both my sisters-in-law work full time; one has no children, the other has two. They make comments at family gatherings that start out with, “When you go back to work, do you think you’ll finally finish your PhD first or do clinical full-time?” It’s a sincere question, they really want to know. But it can feel humiliating to have all eyes turn to you as you say, “I am not ever going to have a career.” A woman who stays home may not have any other family member who does so, and she will be questioned about it.
    4. Probably you have read this famous quote from Simone de Beauvoir: “No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one.” Feminists do not support women having choices; they support women having jobs. We live in a feminist society, and no woman who stays home will fail to feel that she has not lived up to her potential; she has been inculcated with this message from birth.

  27. gdgm+ says:

    It seems to me Dalrock’s telling of this Grimm fable, is another prelude to “the whispers” that he’s written about before.

    I was at a doctor’s office this afternoon, waiting, and leafing through the magazines there… when I saw this article, Miss Independent, in “Real Simple” magazine, with the prelude line, “Even in the best of marriages, you can lose part of yourself.”

    Ms. Hanauer is in an SWPL marriage, but she still starts her article with the following:

    “One of my biggest fears about getting married was that, by becoming a wife, I would gradually
    lose my toughness and independence. In my New Jersey hometown, girls quickly learned how to
    smack a softball or outrun a boy, and being small (I’m five feet one in thick socks), I was
    especially proud of my skills. After graduating from college, I found I lacked a certain fear gene: I
    jogged in Central Park at night, and once I was jumped by a man and not only fought him off but
    also chased him, swearing, when he ran. In my 20s, I lived alone, ate alone, traveled solo, and
    happily took care of myself. I considered my pluck and sense of autonomy to be my trademark.

    Then I met Dan—tall, blue-eyed, calm. At 29, I knew it was time to trade in my free-agent status
    and marry this man. Still, I worried I would go soft, forgetting everything from how to change a
    lightbulb (place stool atop chair; climb) to how to explore a new city alone….”

    What is this about?!? I’m sorry for the husband…

  28. Max says:

    SunshineMary: it’s hard on a woman’s ego when she’s constantly being asked what she does and is treated with barely-concealed contempt when she admits she doesn’t work
    Empath: Is that real?

    @Empath: Yes, it’s real.
    My wife stays-at-home and we had this discussion once after we’d come back from a BBQ. Those “professional” women have a way about them to insinuate not only contempt, but project a feeling of uselessness onto a stay-at-home-wife. Most don’t even vocalize it and I’ve observed it with my own eyes.

    e.g. Working Woman (WW): “Being a real estate agent is SO much fun. It’s great to be out and about and meeting new interesting people all the time. And the money is good too! It’s almost like having your own business without the overheads. So what do you do SAHM?
    SAHM: I’m a stay at home mom.
    WW turns her head away with a slight expression of disgust on her face to start up conversation with another woman. SAHM is then ostracized from the group.

    So yeah, these “working women” can be very nasty.

  29. Professor Ashur says:

    The Whisperers aren’t happy until you’re not happy.

  30. Suz says:

    Oh it’s real. I still can’t figure out if it’s motivated by envy or by the fear that wife-and-mother might actually be better than constant stress, conflicting priorities, and unsatisfactory results.

  31. Stingray says:

    Well, I just think it’s GREAT that you stay home with ALL those kids, SunshineMary. I could never stand it, I just don’t have the patience for it, and I don’t have YOUR creativity so I’d just be bored to death. I have to go to work or I’d just have waaaay too much time on my hands.”

    All said in a tone and with a look upon the face of, why am I talking to this woman who does not meet my standards? Men don’t hear the tone or see the look like women do, but it’s there and it’s not easy. If it’s not a look of superiority, it’s a look of pity.

    My husband gets asked about me homeschooling our kids very often by women at work. The standard reply is, “That has to be a lot of work. I could never do that.” His response these days is, “No, you probably couldn’t”. Gentlemen, if you know your wives are at the receiving end of things like this, you can prop her up and keep her propped (I am not talking about a pedestal, it’s something different) up as what she is doing is far more valuable than any career. Only it is hard for us to always see that when other women try to do things like Sunshine Mary is describing.

  32. The Antigrrrl says:

    Women will criticize other women no matter what. My husband has some serious health issues and when we made the decision for me to work and him to stay home before work killed him, I got flak from every woman I know..even my mother in law. I guess she would rather see her son be dead or homeless than financed by another woman? No idea. Yes I would love to be a SAHM, but I also want my kids to keep their father!

  33. Twenty says:

    I feel particularly bad for the sausage.

    The bird was a gullible dupe, and the mouse was a dope, but the sausage just tried to do his best with a job to which he was manifestly unsuited. Poor guy.

  34. sunshinemary says:

    Professor Ashur wrote, “The Whisperers aren’t happy until you’re not happy.”

    That comment right there is a serious piece of wisdom.

    An example: Yesterday when we got home from church, I kicked off my shoes and went right into the kitchen to make a strawberry-rhubarb pie for Father’s Day dinner. My husband came in and just leaned against the counter watching me without saying anything, up to my arms in pie crust dough, bare feet, with flour all over my church dress. He just watched me for a while with a smile on his face, then walked away. I would not trade that for all the NPR interviews in the world. My old college girlfriends may have careers, but I have a husband and I am happy.

  35. sunshinemary says:

    @ Antigrrrl

    Proverbs 31:12 says that a wife of noble character does her husband good and not harm all the days of his life. You are that woman because you have put your preferences second to his needs. No ideology, whether it be careerism or traditionalism, trumps obedience to your husband and putting his and your children’s well-being first. Kudos to you.

  36. TFH says:

    deti’s story in the first comment is good, but a couple of aspects don’t go far enough.

    The husband worked much less to try to limit his alimony and child support payments.

    If the judge decides to impute his income, this is not even an option for the father. How else to impose a 70% tax rate on someone, but not induce them to work much less?

    She gained 50 pounds and now cougars it up in the bars.

    Even the most minimally successful cougar has to be good-looking. A 20-pound weight gain would dash a woman’s cougar aspirations, let alone a 50-pounder..

    Otherwise, yes, a good description of how vast social capital is being destroyed.

  37. sunshinemary says:

    gdgm wrote: “It seems to me Dalrock’s telling of this Grimm fable, is another prelude to “the whispers” that he’s written about before.”

    Dalrock, can you provide the link please?

  38. Jacquie says:

    sunshinemary says:
    “It sounds like a compliment to you. Trust me, it isn’t. Suz, Jacquie, back me up on the fact that women are vicious in a completely syrupy way.”

    Oh my, how much room do I have to write about this?
    I’ve homeschooled all my children and heard, “oh I just don’t have the patience for being home with the kids all the time.”
    When my husband and I began fostering and adopting children we got a lot of flak, from the church of all places. It was then we began to realize what kind of church we really were attending. A mom told me to my face, “I couldn’t do what you’re doing. I’d be so afraid that those children would ruin my children’s innocence.” Our children already didn’t fit in with most of the other children in the church because we were raising them differently, when we began taking in children from the foster system just about all the other children no longer associated with ours.
    Even recently as I’ve lost a good amount of weight I get the questions about how I did it. When I mention old fashioned healthy eating and working out I can see the disappointment on their faces. They really wanted some magic formula. Then I get the “How great that you have the time to do that, I’m just too busy to get to the gym.” Or “Oh good for you, I just don’t have that much patience.” along with the eye roll. I have to admit it’s usually the women who are still overweight themselves that really give me the most insulting looks and say something along the lines of how happy they are with themselves the way they are. I’ve noticed a lot of them will give me a look up and down and just ignore the weight loss all together and ask if I’ve changed my hair.
    All through the years of marriage my mother bugged me and bugged me about when I was going to get out of the house and do something for myself. She could never understand that I was happy being at home raising my children, taking care of my husband and my house. Most of her comments were the most biting and outright about what I was throwing away, etc. One day she was talking to my oldest daughter, who was about eleven at the time, about what she wanted to be when she grew up my daughter responded that she wanted to be the wife of a missionary or pastor and a mom. I thought my mother’s head was going to blow off her shoulders, then she laced into me verbally demanding why I had not taught my daughter that she could be a doctor or a lawyer or whatever she wanted to be in life. It was an ugly scene.
    Even now, as my relationship has changed with my husband, I get the disapproving look masked behind the smile and nod. One woman at dinner in a restaurant cut me down openly when I deferred to David about an issue, chastising me that I was an independent woman and could make my own decisions. Some of the comments from women include them tearing down their own husbands while asking leading questions about my husband trying to cajole me into joining their tirade of unhappiness. I’m learning that the “You two look so cute together.” is really code for I really hate how you are with your husband.
    A standard when they run out of specifics is the “Whatever works for you.” Or “To each their own.” with the accompaniment of that tone of voice. It’s very cutting. You just don’t fit in and you never will.
    It is really sad because sometimes the unspoken comment made with the sorry eyes or the pity face is what can sometimes hurt most. At least when they say it out loud I can laugh at it, when they say nothing I don’t know what I should be defending about myself.

  39. gdgm+ says:

    @sunshinemary on June 18, 2012 at 8:48 pm:

    Dalrock has mentioned “the whispers” in a number of posts, but I was thinking of this one:

    http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2010/11/02/the-whispers/

    Now if I could only do formatting better…

  40. Dalrock says:

    @SunshineMary

    2. Women insult other women, and men don’t even notice it. We deliver insults via the insincere compliment. Example, “Well, I just think it’s GREAT that you stay home with ALL those kids, SunshineMary. I could never stand it, I just don’t have the patience for it, and I don’t have YOUR creativity so I’d just be bored to death. I have to go to work or I’d just have waaaay too much time on my hands.” It sounds like a compliment to you. Trust me, it isn’t. Suz, Jacquie, back me up on the fact that women are vicious in a completely syrupy way.

    This is often overlooked in the manosphere due to the also real phenomenon of “Team Woman”. I wrote a post on this, and several of the commenters didn’t get it until I explained it further in the comments.

  41. Anacaona says:

    Suz, Jacquie, back me up on the fact that women are vicious in a completely syrupy way.

    I know this was not aimed at me but being another XX I can tell you this so much. Women are subtle but vicious, women can’t afford to be physically aggressive because losing their looks had a high price so they learned the art of the serpent tongue. They can look all sweet and nice to men and stab you on the heart a thousand times at the same time and the worst part is that sometimes you can’t even get back at them in the same manner if you are not equally vicious or at least get a fair warning of who is going to do the attack, sometimes is the person you expect it the most.

    I got flak from every woman I know..even my mother in law.

    I wonder why is that? There are several things I don’t eat (picky eater) that my husband does so I happily cook them for him, even though I don’t eat , my mother in law is really sweet to me and all that but she subtlety take jabs at me for being so “dedicated” (funny enough I learned this from my daddy he was the one with the cooking duties at home and he had no issues in cooking us special meals for his picky kids and in my case when I needed a special diet for health issues so for me cooking different meals never was a big deal) she keeps bugging me to drag his son to places I like to visit even though we don’t have similar tastes and I hate dragging people with me so they can just get bored…like what is the point on that?
    I don’t think she means ill since she usually tries to play nice and not meddling and she does likes me a lot and loves her son, but is more like a reflex when in front of any sign of submission from a woman to a man. This culture is hard to fight and I’m not even a SHAM yet I’m still working part time till our first baby is born, I can only imagine what will happen once I start for good. I will need SHAM support group or something like it. :(

  42. Candide says:

    “I wonder why is that? There are several things I don’t eat (picky eater) that my husband does so I happily cook them for him, even though I don’t eat , my mother in law is really sweet to me and all that but she subtlety take jabs at me for being so “dedicated””

    You make her appear as a bad wife for not being so dedicated towards her own husband.

  43. Anacaona says:

    You make her appear as a bad wife for not being so dedicated towards her own husband.

    They had been together for almost 40 years now…who cares? I know, I know she does. Oh well being Latina I could had gotten worse Latinas mother in laws are a lot more meddling and can destroy your marriage if they feel like it. Counting my blessings.

  44. Höllenhund says:

    Something completely off-topic: I was looking at the TV guide the other day and found this animated series, directed mostly at young girls, entitled „Mia and Me”. The characters have bodies looking like something straight out of some soft porn flick:

    I thought it’s just further proof of the media phenomenon I lately noticed, namely that female media characters are more and more likely to have physically impossible bodies – big butts and tits with flat tummies, long, slender legs – while the physical condition of average Western women has been gradually worsening for decades due to the obesity epidemic, sedentary lifestyle etc.

    Look at any American TV series and you’ll find that the actresses playing average characters are normally rather hot – no excess weight, slender bodies, nice butts etc. – even though it’s common knowledge that the average American woman looks rather crappy. Judging by the stuff you see on television, the USA is chock-full of beautiful women that aren’t fat. Look at ’Criminal Minds’, for example. Two out of the three female characters could pass as photomodels, even though I’m sure most of the women working for the FBI are fat, ugly or just plain-looking broads. Fashion models also have higher and higher physical standards (little body fat etc.) while average women are more and more crappy.

    An interesting contradiction, isn’t it?

  45. Hermit says:

    @ Sunshine Mary “When asked, I try to make my half-day per week job sound like it’s something more serious than it is because suddenly I feel a little embarrassed.”

    You need to be able to hold your head high and say “My job is taking care of my husband, but I do a litle bit of X on the side.” If you can say that without embarrassment or apparent naivete, you’ll have the upper hand. Sure they’ll take their jabs at you, but that’s because they’re trying to pull you down, not push you down. Mock their careers, tell them how “cute” it is that they’re playing “man of the house”. The best defense is a good offense.

  46. Stingray says:

    The thing about women and what Sunshinemary is talking about here is that, sometimes it’s hard to tell. There are absolutely women out there who wish to deride and pity with those backhanded comments because they have a sense of superiority. There are women who very much envy what she has but tow the line of the back handed comment as they really don’t know how else to respond. They go this route to seems superior, but they are not really sure they want to be there. There is a big difference between the two and, while it’s difficult (i usually fail at this and do the downward look thing before I have even had a chance to think about it) it is important to hold ones composure in both instances. To those who feel superior, that little knowing smile will, whether they show it or not, make an impact. They will surely ignore it, but it is there nonetheless. For those women who want what you have, giving a very kind knowing smile will be able to convey, “Hey, if your ready for this SAHM life, come chat. It’s worth it.”

    Ahh, I’m missing something here that I can’t quite put my finger on this morning. I hope you get my point.

  47. Sunshine
    I’m a Christian married man father of four (and Im not gay, bi, or bi curious…..so there!)

    Much of what is written on these blogs is a restatement of things we already know, those of us HERE already know, I mean to say. Its about how its said and IF its said that makes it interesting me thinks.

  48. freebird says:

    The Brothers Grim,throwing up flags to mark the straight and narrow path,now condemned as subversive literature.

    http://outcastsuperstar.blogspot.com/2010/04/poison-posse.html

  49. Hermit says:

    “it is important to hold ones composure in both instances. To those who feel superior, that little knowing smile will, whether they show it or not, make an impact.”

    Exactly, keep the frame.

  50. greyghost says:

    Dalrock the female commenters here are awesome. They describing the herd mentality to a tea and the mechanics of it in practice. Any lesser woman (98-99%) would go with the herd for social approval. How many abortions broken families or missed opportunities (Kate Bolick) based purely on the status in the herd.

  51. sunshinemary says:

    In a previous post, Dalrock wrote, “Some of you guys have bit hard on the sisterhood myth. The key thing to keep in mind is that the women egging her on to frivolously divorce in the first place never had her back. Women are extremely competitive and often vicious with each other, which is why they try to trick other women into getting boy haircuts, sabotaging their love lives, etc.”

    Exactly. I don’t really think there is a sisterhood per se, not in the sense that women are particularly loyal to one another if they have the option to be with a man instead (Aretha Franklin had it about right in the song Dr. Feelgood). If there were a loyal sisterhood, there wouldn’t be so many instances of women sleeping with their close friends’ husbands/boyfriends.

    Team Woman – I’m not sure exactly what you are referring to here, but do you mean how women tend to rather shrilly defend other women’s poor choices? I’m thinking something like, “Don’t blame the sluts! It isn’t their fault that they get played by the cads!” Or perhaps you just mean feminists in general, who lump all women into a victimized class while at the same time ranting on about how strong and empowered women are?

    Also, I find men are generally more verbally straightforward. Women are incredibly manipulative, especially with words. I include myself in that characterization. This is why we women get together with our girlfriends and spend hours dissecting everything you say to us, something men don’t do, right? But is should really be the other way around; men generally say what they really mean and there is no need to hunt for hidden layers of implication. Women often have a subtext to their words that men miss because they don’t look for it; that is why we often feel misunderstood by men.

  52. Jacquie says:

    Hermit says:
    “Mock their careers, tell them how “cute” it is that they’re playing “man of the house”. The best defense is a good offense.”

    “Exactly, keep the frame.”

    So if I am understanding this correctly, basically everything I’ve read about game on the blogs I am reading, the strategies that men learn about how to put a woman in her place; I could use those same tactics when I deal with other women as well?

    Not to the end that men are using game for, but simply being a little cocky to put another woman off balance so that I am basically alpha female over her, having the upper hand and letting her know that I don’t care what she thinks of me and in actuality that I have the life she really would like to have.

    I think I like that idea. I’ll have to go back and do a bit of rereading and learn it well.

  53. Jacquie says:

    If I’ve learned one thing really hard is that there is no ‘sisterhood’. Any woman will stab you in the back quick enough without batting an eye. There are things I will not even tell my full blood sister because I just don’t trust her enough to not use it against me later down the line if she felt the need to. And any little thing that one doesn’t agree with you about will be cause tear you up. Getting kicked to the curb would be far less painful, but they keep you pulled in for a tad bit longer just to make sure they can inflict optimal pain before leaving you to drag yourself out the curb to find relief.

  54. greyghost says:

    team woman comes from the concept of no blame or judgement on women (me, without me losing my virtuos status). Team woman will vote to have abortion legal. An individual woman will claim due to he moral superiorty that she could never do that. ( women should have the right to choose but I don’t think people should be able to do that) But the team woman in her will never close that tion. Team Woman will be for title IX, VAWA, and any other special priveledge for females. and will vote in the laws. Will not critisize a woman for taking advantage claiming it is a right and the law. An individual woman will then talk of her postion as being on merit or what ever. Team woman will never close out those options. It is a hard concept but does seem to compare well to reality

  55. P Ray says:

    Team woman exists to keep the options open for the very top women.
    The “not-top” women go along with it because they figure the benefits will rub off on them, or that they can scoop up a man the top woman discarded.
    Of course, they are ignoring the fact that a man who has been wounded by a “top woman” is less likely to trust women … but given the fact that that same man is probably around other “top women” raises his status in their eyes, whether or not he is going to stay in a relationship with the “not-top” woman.
    That “not-top” woman will, at the same time she is chasing that “man associated with top women”, treat the men at her level like crap, because “5 minutes of alpha is worth a lifetime of beta” and “only a man who refuses to put up with my games is worth my time”.
    While this is happening, she’s aging.
    At the end of all her broken relationships, she finally says “the man of my dreams, is the one I marry”. Meaning: He gets to put up with being compared to every other guy who enjoyed her pleasures without requiring commitment … and has to deal with the fact that she is less likely to value her relationship with him as she views it as “compensation for all the hurt I endured at the hands of the alpha men (that I chose)”.
    Women don’t retaliate against alphas … because they want a second chance with those guys, and because those guys have other women who stick up for them, and they can retaliate too.

  56. Paul says:

    Another way of looking at the concept of team woman is NAWALT (not all women are like that), which is what almost every woman will say as a defence of her gender (in theory, in reality it’s more like I’m not a woman like that, it’s always about me, remember?) when any woman gets criticized, fairly or unfairly.

    In other words, women may do all sorts of bad things, but NAWALT, so don’t judge. Divorce rape, drowning their own kids, whatever might be in the news or have happened closer to home, we can’t judge women because NAWALT. Nothing to see here move along.

    The corollary aspect of team woman is that All Men Are Like That (AMALT). A man is responsible for the sins of every man from a previous relationship his girlfriend/wife has ever had, all men are abusers or potential abusers, repressive macho pigs, etc., therefore the need for VAWA, punitive divorce laws, affirmative action, etc.

  57. men generally say what they really mean and there is no need to hunt for hidden layers of implication. Women often have a subtext to their words that men miss because they don’t look for it; that is why we often feel misunderstood by men.
    ———————————————————————————
    @Sunshine
    Yes. But the men here and those like us have become adept at hearing the subtext AND at seeing how women will infer subtext to our words so that it creates a straw man that they then can attack. Thats the standard template. A simplistic example would be a man asserting in a mixed forum that sex in marriage is important. Generally most of the women then attack him for saying sex is ALL that is important. That one is easy to see though but they get complicated from there, the trick in an argument where she says something that is correct, and its technically ABOUT the same topic, but its irrelevant to the scenario in dispute is another favorite. The ability to use the inoperative portion of analogy to refute analogy….another. Fascinating, these things, and maddening, like beat head on wall maddening

  58. CL says:

    @ sunshinemary

    Team Woman

  59. FFY says:

    Team woman applies more to criticism of women in general. Women will snipe each other constantly on an individual level, but god forbid anyone criticize women in general.

    It’s crazy watching women of all stripes and beliefs who are more or less at each other’s throats most of the time and could hardly care about each other normslly band together in the face of any criticism of Women. The herd must be protected.

  60. Athor Pel says:

    “sunshinemary says:
    June 18, 2012 at 7:21 pm

    They make comments at family gatherings that start out with, “When you go back to work, do you think you’ll finally finish your PhD first or do clinical full-time?” It’s a sincere question, they really want to know. But it can feel humiliating to have all eyes turn to you as you say, “I am not ever going to have a career.”
    …”

    There’s a very simple answer to that question they pose to you. Tell them you are doing the most important thing on the planet, ensuring the continuation of the human species, and you’re doing it in the best way you know how, by doing it yourself rather than letting wage slaves do it for you.

    If you really want to dig the knife in, tell them you want your children to love you enough to take care of you in your old age by showing that you love them as they are growing up. Pawning them off to daycare and public school sends them a lesson you don’t want them to learn, that you institutionalize family members if they interfere with your life too much.

    Sending kids to daycare or otherwise pawning them off to someone else tells the kid that you would rather do something other than raise them as if you loved them. They will internalize that message. You will reap what you sow.

    I’m not talking about working just to live but about purely discretionary pursuits that displace responsible child rearing.

  61. GKChesterton says:

    @Dalrock,

    You are right. This is aimed at men and I think it is a great story. In fact, I’d argue that it is how feminism got started. Beta men wanting fairness and alpha’s seeing an escape. Women’s loads are generally less demanding especially as the number of children falls as the did at the turn of the century. It is easy to be jealous. Foolish, but easy.

    BTW the construction article was sadly hilarious. My family was in the trades (I escaped and have always been thankful because it is _hard_ work). For most of my childhood my mother “owned” the company to ease getting government contracts. I knew many people who did the same. I also knew of large companies that did exactly what is described.

    @Deti,

    For the reason above that’s why I don’t think the story works. What you are describing is the outcome of the much earlier work. I fully believe we ceded control. In fact it calls to mind the mocking Song of Deborah (cf. Judges 4-5).

    @Sunshine,
    I’m curious as to where everyone lies on the issue of women working outside the home. I see it more as being careerist versus family-oriented, rather than a hard and fast rule of working vs. at-home.

    Women were traditionally engaged in cottage industry. That is, they worked in the modern sense of the word but they worked at home. The husband might due heavy farm lifting or be employed in a professional craft but the wife had profitable “hobbies”. To that end I think we’re being oddly modern by being against women _working_. What I am against is mixed sex employment which the industrial and information age fosters. I think that leads to all sorts of trouble as it allows emotional bonds to form that aren’t proper outside of marriage and leads otherwise moral upper level beta’s and alphas and poorly mated women into all sorts of trouble.

    @Cane,
    The problem, to me, isn’t whether my wife works outside the home or not. It’s whether her priorities ever deviate from this order: me, kids, home, work.

    Correct. I point out to careerist women that a good man goes through the trouble to work because of his family and not the other way around. I have no personal need for the job I have right now. I can live rather cheap.

    @AJ Miller,
    Remember that the Proverbs 21 woman stayed at home. All her work was to satisfy and keep her household which she very successful in doing.

    I think you mean 31 and she is active outside in selling goods and property. That is, she engages in cottage industry.

    @Empath
    Is that real? Its a genuine question, and I ask it because I see women as incredibly over sensitive to almost everything, Christian women have a self esteem crisis and there is not a good reason for it, its like peer pressure or something makes women seek things that they can perceive as being harmful to their esteem.

    It is very real. Even more terrible is the flack you get for having more than two kids. I only have two, but even those in my fairly religious community growing up were greeted as mistakes from the populace as a whole. It was surreal. JPII was very right about the culture of death. My wife was and is constantly hammered for being at home with children and most _especially_ by women.

    @Sunshine,
    I respectfully disagree. I do not think sex ed is appropriate for small children. I think children receive too much information and too much sexual stimulation via media as it is. I think we need to start morality training earlier and more forcefully.

    I think the type of training matters. They don’t need spectacularly graphic details but I don’t see the above as an example of that. Once I was more squeamish about the idea and then an older man reminded me that on the farm most of the kids have a much closer and graphic idea of what sex is and what it does at a very early age.

    My experience on veiled insults matches yours. I’m just more aware of it than I think most men are.

    men generally say what they really mean and there is no need to hunt for hidden layers of implication. Women often have a subtext to their words that men miss because they don’t look for it; that is why we often feel misunderstood by men.

    I am often awed at the parsed messages that I evidently deliver to my wife. What’s depressing is that she is often trying to please me, but by over-analyzing she’s missing the point.

    @Stingray,
    His response these days is, “No, you probably couldn’t”. Gentlemen, if you know your wives are at the receiving end of things like this, you can prop her up and keep her propped (I am not talking about a pedestal, it’s something different) up as what she is doing is far more valuable than any career.

    Ouch! I actually try to say they can in order to encourage good behavior. I also point out, which is dangerous at work, that they won’t be young forever and eventually they won’t be able to have children. That gives them all a moment of pause because they know it is true.

    You are right that it isn’t a pedestal. Its a grant of status through our authority, “She did that for me and I like it. Problems?” I’ve given a response like that before and there really is nothing to be said. It shuts down the argument.

    @Hollen,
    most of the women working for the FBI are fat, ugly or just plain-looking broads.

    Not fat. Some are rather nice looking. They have to work out a minimum of three hours a week.

  62. Stingray says:

    GKC,

    He used to do what you are saying, until he realized that many of these women were just being terribly fake. He counters that with a full dose of truth. Sometimes, a head on challenge is more effective than encouragement. It’s shocking, yes. But it ends the conversation on point and (most importantly for my husband, I think) he can get right back to work. He has little patience unless the woman he is talking to is seriously considering a homeschooling path. Then he will take as much time as possible.

  63. ballista74 says:

    FFY wrote:

    Team woman applies more to criticism of women in general. Women will snipe each other constantly on an individual level, but god forbid anyone criticize women in general.

    Actually, I think we are all going around the definition. The Team part is important. Women snipe at each other constantly, but “dare those evil menz do that to any one of us and we’re all there”. In other words, pick on one of them, you pick on all of them. It’s used, especially, to excuse bad behavior on the part of women that’s consistent with feminism, or to conform women to the feministic standard, which is where the “sniping” comes from. Don’t play with the team and support the team, the sniping comes. To address Dalrock’s post of June 18, 2012 at 11:26 pm, it’s not necessarily overlooked, especially for those who are indeed aware of what feminism is in the culture. I’m sure Mary and Jacquie aren’t going to see any of the positive (to them) aspects of Team Woman if they continue on their paths, but the moment that they frivolously divorce or go back to the workplace full-time to spite their children and husband, Team Woman will rally around them. It’s just how the whole thing works, and this goes for Churchianity women as well as women of “the world”. Team Woman is solidarity to the feminist ideal of female empowerment above all else. A good example of it in action is ChristianForums.Com. Parrot the feminist ideal, or you’re out of there. Really, though, most all Churchian organizations are like this, too.

    Hollenhund wrote:

    Look at any American TV series and you’ll find that the actresses playing average characters are normally rather hot – no excess weight, slender bodies, nice butts etc. – even though it’s common knowledge that the average American woman looks rather crappy.

    As I found the time I got to go overseas, most people get their impressions from American media of who average Americans are, but it is often way off from reality in many aspects.

    Actually in this case, it’s the good old fashioned mantra that “sex sells”. They know the show will be more successful if they put out a 8 or 9 instead of a 4 or 5, and if they provide variation there’s more chance of men’s eyes getting stuck on the eye candy. Criminal Minds is a great illustration of the variation part as well, since the two women you reference are almost polar opposites when it comes to their looks but still up there on the looks scale. Most all of them in the newer shows (last 5 or 6 years) are like this (or were if the show went a long enough time like any of the CSIs). It’s just providing eye candy, and a big shot of lustful temptation. To paraphrase Denis Leary on something I won’t quote entirely since we’re in mixed company: “I’m back to regular network television.”

    While it is a whole heap of temptation, one positive thing for me (anyway) is to take it literally and say that “women like that are a dime a dozen”. It helps me to look to other things besides my eyes when it comes to evaluating women.

  64. sunshinemary says:

    OK, everyone needs to stop reading right now and click on CL’s “Team Woman” link above and read it. Just brilliant.

  65. sunshinemary says:

    @ Ballista74
    “the moment that they frivolously divorce or go back to the workplace full-time to spite their children and husband, Team Woman will rally around them. It’s just how the whole thing works, and this goes for Churchianity women as well as women of “the world”. Team Woman is solidarity to the feminist ideal of female empowerment above all else.”

    So. Is there an antidote, and if so, what is it?

  66. Anonymous Reader says:

    Ballista74
    Team Woman is solidarity to the feminist ideal of female empowerment above all else.

    That is true at this time, but it is only one facet or manifestation of Team Woman. The reality as far as I can tell is what Suz posted some weeks back. “Team Woman” is a manifestation or outcome of human breeding practices for millennia. When tribes passed girls and women from one tribe to another – peacefully or violently, as the case may be – women found themselves living in a human group with no blood kin. Those women who could adapt, who could fit themselves into whatever female hierarchy existed, lived to pass their genes on. Therefore, we have the situation where women will take the side of other women against men, but who will almost at the same time engage in various forms of relational aggression in intra-female competition to secure a man.

    Women who can’t join the “herd” of women will be outcast. Women who can’t secure a man will be, for want of a better work, “incast”. They’ll be supported to some extent by other women.

    So what we see in Team Woman is gynocentrism, the habit of doing as a group those things that are of benefit to women as a group, by following what the female opinion leaders or the “alpha” females frame as the right thing to do. What we see in relational aggression between women is the manifestation of the innate female desire to reproduce: sperm to make babies, and resources to raise them.

    The tremendous surplus of resources, and the growth of the feminist state to provide them, has made it possible for women to live and reproduce without a man being intimately involved – i.e. a husband. Women can and do “marry” the state, which allows them to extract resources from men (many men, in fact) without having one of them cluttering up the house. Therefore, feminism and the “independence” that enables women to be their own Beta, is what the herd believes to be Good.

    Those women who buck that trend are therefore “outcast”. Because they are not “team players” in the sense of going along with the feminist mindset / mandate.

    The more I think about how humans used to live – in a condition of material scarcity – the more I see how our modern abundance often turns our instincts, appetites, needs, etc. into something monstrous. It reminds me in a way of the 1950′s movie “Forbidden Planet” – by enabling ourselves to have what we want, when we want it, we turn loose our own “monsters from the Id”.

  67. 7man says:

    At SurvivalBlog, I found this interesting observation and statement from a good woman. This is how a woman should support her man and how she can demonstrate her trust in him. Such a woman is treasured, cared for and protected.
    Countering The Retreat Freeloader Meme, by Caroline B.

    Excerpted
    Before you all jump in the car and crash my party (or anyone else’s)…. there is a lot that you must consider first.

    Having been forced by conditions, and blessed by love, my family has lived with another family in the past. This family is so very close and dear and beloved by us. We have children that are around the same ages. We see the same in most political and religious arenas and our differences were small and barely noticeable really.

    But living together is difficult.

    Consider your own spouse, whom you love and adore. I’ll bet that you argue sometimes! I’ll bet you have even at times been tempted to raise your voice, throw a dish, stomp furiously from a room.
    It was a very heavy strain on my own family and on theirs to live together. Who was in charge? Who was supposed to do the dishes? Why did that person get up so early or stay up so late? Who used all the toilet paper!?!?

    Even in TEOTWAWKI, these human tendencies and emotional issues will occur.

    So there has to be ground rules. And these are the rules of my home.
    1.
    This is not a democracy. My husband is in charge.

    This is not about some addiction to power, and megalomania. Initially, for our own family, we made this decision based on scripture. Ephesians 5:22-33 tells us that the man is the head of the household, as Christ is head of the church. There is one captain on this ship. I get to say my piece most of the time, and my opinion is respected and considered. But he and he alone decides the direction our family will take. Your opinion also will be listened to and given consideration. If possible he will explain the reasons for any decision made.

    You may not like it. But if you come to our house, that is the number one rule. Before you balk too much about it, remember that this house and this land belongs to him. We would certainly respect you in your home. We will force no one to come to our home. We will force [no one] to stay at our home. If necessary we will ask you to leave.

    This woman is on Team Her Man rather than Team Woman.

  68. Anacaona says:

    Maybe the best answer for SHAMs would be something like “I don’t want to go back to the job force till I know I will make a difference instead of shutting of papers back and forth, for a company that will fire me in a heartbeat due to budget cuts and won’t even remember my name once I’m out… At least my kids and husband care about the real me and I made a real difference on their lives that daycare doesn’t” or something along those lines…YMMV.

  69. Stingray says:

    So. Is there an antidote, and if so, what is it?

    Live your life the way you are, happily for all the world to see. Don’t make excuses for it (I’m not criticizing you here. I have done the same. I know how hard it is not to). There are young women out there who want what you have and are looking for role models. Ladies like you need to let them see that “Team Woman” is not telling the truth, even to themselves. Let your happiness be seen by them all, unabashedly so when girls do see you, maybe they won’t be so afraid to come ask your secret and find what you have been able to attain for themselves.

  70. GKChesterton says:

    Ladies like you need to let them see that “Team Woman” is not telling the truth, even to themselves.

    And by doing so you formulate a different “Team Woman” that is socially more stable. Patriarchy always wins in the end in every society because it is the only stable social model we have. Give the gift that doesn’t lead to a general blood letting and civil war.

  71. 7man says:

    @GKC
    Team Woman is Team Woman. There is no different Team Woman. The alternative is Team Her Man. I doubt most men would want a woman that is on a different (but good) Team Woman. Is this even possible?

    A man wants his woman to be committed to his team.

  72. CL says:

    @ GKC

    There really isn’t a “different Team Woman”; it’s either Team Woman or Team Her Man, or rarely independent/loner/reject.

    A lot of what the women here have said explains a lot for me. With woman, nothing is explicitly stated, but it’s clear enough when you are not ‘one of them’ and that can sting.

    I am quite wary of getting close to most of them. If they don’t actively turn on you for some imagined offense, they are often unavailable when you need them most, no matter how much you have been there for them in the past.

    There is no ‘sisterhood’; it’s a big fat myth.

  73. GKChesterton says:

    If as Anonymous posits that Team Woman is an extension of tribal survival habits, which seems logical to me, then yes a new team can emerge. Not the one Game refers to as such, but any change in the popular culture could result in a different Team Woman as the “Team” is just a reflection of current mass female mores and an attempt to enforce the same.

  74. sunshinemary says:

    Let’s assume that Team Woman is a real phenomenon. CL/7Man have done a fine job of explaining what Team Woman IS, but there seem to be two competing theories on this thread as to WHY Team Woman is (i.e. Why does Team Woman exist). Please clarify for me if I am not restating this correctly.

    Why does Team Woman exist?

    Theory 1, as described by Ballista74
    “Team Woman is solidarity to the feminist ideal of female empowerment above all else.”

    I interpret this to mean that Team Woman is a social construct used by women, whether consciously or not, to garner social power and control over men. The reason for doing this is to further a socio-political movement, namely feminism. If this is correct, then Team Woman is merely a choice, and we would be justified in passing moral judgement on Team Woman and attempting to eliminate this construct or at least seriously to reduce its social power.

    Theory 2 as explained by Anonymous Reader, with some credit given to Suz
    ” “Team Woman” is a manifestation or outcome of human breeding practices for millennia. When tribes passed girls and women from one tribe to another – peacefully or violently, as the case may be – women found themselves living in a human group with no blood kin. Those women who could adapt, who could fit themselves into whatever female hierarchy existed, lived to pass their genes on. Therefore, we have the situation where women will take the side of other women against men, but who will almost at the same time engage in various forms of relational aggression in intra-female competition to secure a man. ”

    I understand this to mean that Team Woman is a bio-psychological construct, which macro-evolutionists would say came about via natural selection due to improved mating opportunities and differential survivorship of offspring, and which creationists might say was a survival trait purposefully placed in human females to ensure the continuation of the species. If this is correct, then we would NOT be justified in passing moral judgement on Team Woman as it is an innate genetic trait which occurs without choice, and attempting to eliminate or mitigate it would be practically futile. The correct response would be to accept that Team Woman, like vaginas, is just part of the human female anatomy.

    Or, to put it on the bottom shelf – if theory 1 is correct, we need to start a revolution. If theory 2 is correct, then the entire manosphere needs to quit bitching about it.

    Your thoughts?

  75. Anonymous Reader says:

    sunshinemary
    Or, to put it on the bottom shelf – if theory 1 is correct, we need to start a revolution. If theory 2 is correct, then the entire manosphere needs to quit bitching about it.

    If theory 2 is correct then Team Woman is a feature, not a bug, just like female hypergamy. Women’s hypergamy, like men’s need for sex, is a powerful force but it needs to be directed, controlled, in a proper channel, else it is destructive. Uncontrolled hypergamy is turning out to be a very slow-motion , intergenerational, train wreck; the 80/20 principle, increasing numbers of women who are never-married mothers by choice, serial monogamy with divorce theft as a bonus, and so forth.

    Uncontrolled gynocentrism is very likely in the same category. It’s a natural property of women, like men’s competitive nature it can be channeled or controlled in a useful direction, left uncontrolled it becomes destructive.

    The key word here is uncontrolled. Female herd-behavior can be used for good purposes.

    In the rural, less mobile, world of 100 years ago a headstrong young woman would find her hypergamous, self-centered instincts hemmed in considerably; by her own female relations for a start, by other women in her community / church for a finish. There was a much brighter line between “lady” and “slut” in those days, and crossing it had all kinds of implications. If Team Woman was all about keeping young women off of the carousel, not even watching it, then that would be a good use. If Team Woman was doing that by promoting assorted mating, keeping ordinary young women from throwing themselves at alpha cads, and even chivvying them in the direction of beta men, that would be an even better use. And if Team Woman was deploying its considerable shaming powers in defense of married women staying married, rather than in promotion of “Eat, Betray, Love” fantasies, that would be a great good thing, indeed.

    “Team Woman”, gynocentrism, is a powerful force. It could be like a big locomotive, pulling many cars along with it on a track that has been previously laid out. However, right now Team Woman often looks more like bunch of self-propelled chainsaws set loose by some evil mad scientist.

  76. greyghost says:

    AR
    it is really interesting how sunshinemary is sitting on the answer and doesn’t understand. Your explaination is outstanding and is how we beat this feminist beaste. Women did not change society changed. She was without knowing it doing team woman when she realized that the concept was normal for women. (normal for a feral woman not a woman that is a member of a civilized society)

  77. sunshinemary says:

    AR
    So, Team Woman is at its basic level a bio-psychological phenomenon, over which we lay social constructs in order to balance the competing mating strategies in a changing society, if I understand what you are saying. And over all this, we have the moral/spiritual realm of course. It does seem very complex to try to pull apart the strands of cost versus benefits for women individually, as a group, and also men. The incentive to cheat, to play it both ways, seems great. I don’t know, something seems to be missing from this explanation, but I’m not clever enough to see it.

  78. samsonsjawbone says:

    Gentlemen, if you know your wives are at the receiving end of things like this, you can prop her up and keep her propped

    I’m a little late to this party, but I want to say that my wife gets the same treatment, exactly as detailed by everyone above, and I take it utterly seriously that I *must* build her up and encourage her on this issue. Not only my wife, but all SAHMs. The Vox Day piece someone linked to is excellent.

    I still can’t figure out if it’s motivated by envy or by the fear that wife-and-mother might actually be better than constant stress, conflicting priorities, and unsatisfactory results.

    It’s hard to say, but I’ll tell you that a few months ago I hung out with some old classmates from medical school. The girls were getting a bit tipsy, and began admitting that secretly they’d love to give it all up and stay at home. So there’s that.

  79. Dalrock says:

    @Samsonsjawbone

    It’s hard to say, but I’ll tell you that a few months ago I hung out with some old classmates from medical school. The girls were getting a bit tipsy, and began admitting that secretly they’d love to give it all up and stay at home. So there’s that.

    I call this playing career woman. The key to this is to blame the husband/kids for “drafting” her into the SAHM role. She is a poor victim of the patriarchy, which forces her to do what she really wanted to do. She is both feminist hero (has the merit badge) and victim. The risk of course is that no man will draft them, leaving them as Hercules left Atlas to continue holding up the weight of the world.

  80. Looking Glass says:

    Isn’t the right response for a SAHM that they work in “Intensive investment development and future-proofing analysis”? A functional family is easily the best investment one can make in life, so no sense in being coy about it. :)

  81. greyghost says:

    http://www.star-telegram.com/2012/04/26/3916368/fort-worth-hospital-works-to-make.html

    Not taking care of family could leave you in this state in the end

  82. GKChesterton says:

    @Sunshinemary,

    If this is correct, then we would NOT be justified in passing moral judgement on Team Woman as it is an innate genetic trait which occurs without choice

    Dalrock is going to clean my clock for allowing the hamsters lose and for which I apologize. I should note the above is absolutely not true. Let’s say you are predisposed towards theft. Societies answer to that _should be_ “tough luck, you imperil all of us”. Just because you have a trait due to biological cause you are human and still responsible for its expression and society can feel free to curtail you. Modernism as with the other “isms” have attempted to give us The Ultimate Excuse for Being Dicks.

    On top of this is the Christian Theological perspective. Christianity is anti-Manichean and therefore posits evil as such can’t exist. It is only ever a corruption of some good that does exist (see Tolien and the Nazgul). Anonymous actually goes very far in showing how human nature should be harnessed for good ends. In fact I strongly agree with his presentation.

    If the herd acts a a social bulwark then it is extremely useful. In fact it still does as women do a cursory attempt of sorting sluts and ladies. The problem is feminism has corrupted the use of this instinct and allowed a bunch of slutty behavior through. Feminism being evil it can only drag other things down. It now attempts to use the herd to encourage unstable behavior.

  83. GKChesterton says:

    @Greyghost,

    One of my worst fears. Unfortunately in a highly mobile society sometimes this just happens. I remember having to sit with a very good older lady who’s son tried very hard to be present but who lived and worked several hundred miles away. I believe I was the last person she saw.

  84. Hermit says:

    @ Jacquie “So if I am understanding this correctly, basically everything I’ve read about game on the blogs I am reading, the strategies that men learn about how to put a woman in her place; I could use those same tactics when I deal with other women as well?”

    Yes and no. Women’s communication style is distinctively different than men’s. Use the same basic strategies, but transform them into a more subtle form.

  85. TFH says:

    Yes and no. Women’s communication style is distinctively different than men’s.

    Yes.

    Mastering this is one of the three most important elements of Game…

  86. GKChesterton says:

    @TFH,

    I don’t think that follows. She’s a woman. The signals wouldn’t work. She’d be advertising her fitness to breed…to women…

  87. TFH says:

    Kickstarter has a Brian Banks documentary (Brian Banks being the man falsely accused of rape, which cost him an NFL career and much more) :

    For those of you who don’t know how Kickstarter works, they seek crowdsourced donations to fund projects (a documentary, in this case). If the amount requested is not raised, all donations are returned.

    About $9000 more is needed, and just 8 days remaining.

    If you were wondering about new ways to have an impact, this is where you can. If MRAs can’t scrape up the mere $9000 needed to reach the funding threshold, that is a total failure of the MRM, and of the entire androsphere.

    Five people have donated $1000 or more (and there is a good chance none of them are MRAs), but even donations of $5 or $10 can be accepted.

    Come on! You can do it!

  88. TFH says:

    GKC,

    Your comment makes no sense whatsoever.

    You just don’t know how Game works, and what communication styles enable a man to connect with a woman in a way most men have no ability to.

  89. Suz says:

    GKC,

    Women respond to strength and power even when they don’t want to breed with it. I spent several years using what turned out to be Game-like techniques, to keep my rabid-hamster ex-boss under control. Subtle negs, the occasional growling bark, and especially “the look” (calm, expressionless face, not so much as a raised eyebrow, with steady eye contact.) She liked to manipulate me, shoot me down when I was in a cheerful or optimistic mood. I learned not to feed her hamster with the responses it expected and craved. Dominance is useful for more than breeding.

  90. Anacaona says:

    Dominance is useful for more than breeding.

    Athol had a post about this recently you should check it out.

  91. Deke says:

    Hello all; have been lurking here for the last several months and find the discussions and comments very enlightening. Please forgive my off-topic interruption but couldn’t resist.

    To TFH,

    You said above that mastering the differences in women’s style of communication (as compared to how men communicate) is one of the three most important aspects of Game.

    Could you please name the other two? And please list any websites, books, DVDs, etc that in your estimation explain these three elements clearly?

    Also in a similar vein you said in responding to GKC:

    “You just don’t know how Game works, and what communication styles enable a man to connect with a woman in a way most men have no ability to.”

    Could you please elaborate on what those communication styles are and again suggest any resources for learning more about them?

  92. The Antigrrrl says:

    @greyghost

    I’ve seen it quite a bit where there are families with many children (like six plus) where not one kid will show to help mom and dad at the end. One of the social workers said to me one day ” what horrible kids, 11 in the family and not one is helping!” I told her “That is not a family with bad kids, its a family with bad parents”. Sometimes it is just not great kids but in a family that size I highly doubt they raised eleven bad apples.

  93. Em says:

    For what it’s worth, I’m on the receiving end of criticism like what Sunshinemary describes, but because I work.

    I teach two days a week, 6 hours each day, at a local university. Because of the timing of the schedule, our kids are either in school or with their grandparents during that time. When folks at church find out about that arrangement, I get the eyeroll and the comments about my poor kids and how much they must miss me (ie, I’m a terrible mother for leaving them, and they’re going to “turn out” badly because of my absence).

    I’m not arguing for the rightness or wrongness of that judgment/opinion, just pointing out that pretty much whatever your life choices, SOMEONE is going to beat you with them. You just have to be sure that what YOU’RE doing (whatever that is) is what’s best for YOUR family, and you’ll be okay.

  94. Hermit says:

    “whatever your life choices, SOMEONE is going to beat you with them”

    My personal belief is to always and unashamedly do what is right and moral, always. Sometimes the best thing for your family is for the wife to work. In our case, my wife had to work for 3 years because we had gotten into some debt and it was the only way to keep ourselves in a safe neighborhood. It wasn’t ideal, but it had to be done. We worked things out, and now she’s home with the kids. It still isn’t ideal, but we live in evil times in an evil world.

    Fortunately, most of our friends and family are quite fine with her not working. However, now that she’s home, we plan on homeschooling our two oldest. Many people we know have let us know of their objections, but it’s best for our kids and we have no problems telling people so.

  95. gdgm+ says:

    More on the subject of women and work: I just received the July/August 2012 issue of ‘The Atlantic’ magazine in the mail. Its (unnerving to me) cover story is “Why Women Still Can’t Have It All” by an upper-middle class working mom in the US gov’t, Anne-Marie Slaughter. I could not yet find the long article online, though it’s praised and excerpted here.

    One of the Atlantic article’s most concerning passages reads:
    “And although women as a group have made substantial gains in wages, educational attainment, and prestige over the past three decades, the economists Justin Wolfers and Betsey Stevenson have shown that women are less happy today than their predecessors were in 1972, both in absolute terms and relative to men.

    The best hope for improving the lot of all women, and for closing what Wolfers and Stevenson call a “new gender gap” — measured by well-being rather than wages — is to close the leadership gap: to elect a woman president and 50 woman senators; to ensure that women are equally represented in the ranks of corporate executives and judicial leaders. Only when women wield power in sufficient numbers will we create a society that genuinely works for all women. That will be a society that works for everyone.”

  96. Comment_Whatever says:

    A Hero Speaks About More Heroes:

    It’s hard to say, but I’ll tell you that a few months ago I hung out with some old classmates from medical school. The girls were getting a bit tipsy, and began admitting that secretly they’d love to give it all up and stay at home. So there’s that.

    They want to sit home and watch TV and gossip and do whatever they want. How noble.

    Of course, someone has to work, so Heroes have to rabidly attack men to make them over-work. Indeed, this is the simple reason for why “Americans” are so obsessed with work.

    Work is important! Work is all! (for men)

    Meanwhile, A Hero and his Heroes wasted the wealth of the wealthiest country to have ever existed at the height of it’s wealth(the 1950s) on paying for letting women stay at home and gossip. Indeed this was so expensive, that the country had to be run into the ground to do it and the very next generation, almost all women had to work.

    Not that the expense is surprising. Women are 50% of the workforce. So if a significant portion sit on their but(70% of all women 25-54 in the 1950s), then you have to make up for it somehow. One of the reasons why, even in the 1950s, male animals needed to work +40 hour weeks.

    How Heroic!

    PS:
    “People” are free to compare mothers with pre-school children with mothers with children old enough to go to school all they want. Don’t forget to include Mothers whose children are over 18 to! Cause they also sat on their but in the 1950s! If you can imagine it, think of your pitiless gaze and make it ten times colder. That’s how I look when I read your excuses.

    Even now, labor participation for women between 25-54 years is only around 75%. Indicating 1 in 4 of them are sitting on their butt. Most of the rest have easy government/teaching/HR jobs. Man animal gotta make up for that!

  97. CL says:

    @ gdgm+

    So their ‘solution’ is in precisely the direction that got us into this mess in the first place. Brilliant. Makes me feel tired just reading it. The depth of people’s stupidity (i.e. those who fall for this even with all the evidence to show that it doesn’t work) is depressing.

  98. Oy
    The well being gap
    The wage gap

    People in Appalachia have the tooth gap….so what

  99. 7man says:

    The Mancession: 16 Signs That This Economic Decline Is Sucking The Life Out Of The American Male

    It seems women already hold more than half of all middle management jobs in America. “Only when women wield power in sufficient numbers will we create a society that genuinely works for all women. That will be a society that works for everyone.”

    Good times are just around the corner and the fruits of this achievement will be seen imminently!

  100. At 60% of college admissions, I read one feminist stating given those numbers “they are getting ever closer to equality”
    Remedial math? Anyone?

  101. CL says:

    @ empath

    That’s easily explained: In order to reach equal standing with men, they need at least two women for each man. Kind of like how every time Peter Hitchens goes on the BBC they bring in three lefties to debate him and he still wins.

  102. greyghost says:

    The Antigrrrl
    It is a cultural thing today to not be a member of a family but for a family to be a member of you. Family today is seen as a source of support and not as a source of responsibility to your kin folk. Look at all of the entitlement and you deserve it stuff they shovel on to girls. Any check or responsibility is see as oppression. Little boys are refered to as assholes from the time they can walk on through to their deaths however long it takes in every medium for TV ads and programs, radio, music, the school they attend etc. etc. Not alot self sacrificing love from that bunch. and worse than that think of the deep satisfaction and end of life joy you have from knowing others benefited from your efforts.
    i regularly tell my kids and wife that i do them right not because of the goodies I get from you it is because I said “I do” at a wedding ceremony. I have had to say and do things that hurt their feelingds but I can honestly say out loud I have never said or done anything that will hurt them in the long hall. I never want to feed my family false lies to gain some immediate I’m cool praise. That would be sacrificing my wife and kids character for my own ego.

  103. Look at any American TV series and you’ll find that the actresses playing average characters are normally rather hot

    In another blog, someone pointed out that even “Ugly Betty” is hot

  104. freebird says:

    “However, right now Team Woman often looks more like bunch of self-propelled chainsaws set loose by some evil mad scientist.”
    Thanks for the smile.
    There’s no evidence that men dragged women off to strange tribes by the hair,but plenty of evidence for the social construct theory,IE: Oprah-Master of The Universe.With the evil Dr.Phil as sidekick.Cheerleaders include “The view” and similar shows,and actual celebrities such as Eve Ensler,Loreana Bobbit,Andrea Dworkin,so on and so forth-perpetuated by “womens studies” classes.Also the constant anti-male bias of the media and LEO.
    “if theory 1 is correct, we need to start a revolution. ”
    Proverbs 18:20-24-worth reading.

  105. Pingback: Linkage Is Good For You.6-24-12 | Society of Amateur Gentlemen

  106. Randy says:

    Dark story lol. Thanks for sharing.

  107. sweet how to avid getting robber at the alter

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