How young should a woman marry? (Part 1)

One of the common topics of the manosphere/androsphere is women setting about finding husbands in all of the wrong ways.  The most common mistake women are making today is wasting their youth and chastity pursuing everything but marriage, and then going on a desperate husband hunt in their late 20s to mid 30s.  Certainly many women who have followed this approach report being happy with the results, but there is reason to believe that this approach will only become more difficult as more and more women attempt it.  The problem women who try this method and fail experience is once they find out it isn’t the right path for them they are already locked in.

However, the counter argument to women marrying young is that women who do so risk marrying before they are developed enough in their sense of self to know what they want.  The premise is that a woman might develop different priorities and goals than her husband during the course of the early years of the marriage and find herself incompatible with him after a few years (often coincidentally shortly after their last child is out of diapers).  This is a serious concern, and those making this case have some compelling statistics to point to in the form of much higher divorce rates for women who marry young.  In this post I’ll propose a model I think young women should follow for finding a husband to address this concern, and in part two I’ll address the statistics.

I propose that young women should take their husband hunt seriously from the beginning.  This means not looking for boyfriends, dates, friends with benefits, etc.  They should be looking for a husband from day 1, focusing exclusively on men who meet all three of the following criteria:

  1. Men who are (or are likely to be) interested in marrying her.
  2. Men she finds attractive enough that she is able to fall head over heels in love with him.
  3. Men she is ready to submit to as a wife and follow his leadership for the duration of her life.

Bullet number one should be obvious, but it is certainly worth stating.  One difference I’ve noted between men and women is women often don’t stick to the set of available options when making their selection.  A woman considering her options in marriage shouldn’t consider the recent interest (accepted or otherwise) from the exciting guy in the local band for some no strings attached sex, or even for a long term relationship.  If he isn’t interested in marriage, she shouldn’t consider him when considering her options.  The same goes for men who might be interested in marriage but don’t demonstrate an interest in marrying her.  Of course, none of the above is always a valid option so long as the woman is honest with herself that this means she is willing to risk foregoing marriage altogether with the hope that her available options will ultimately improve.

Bullet number two is an interesting one.  Many young women set out on a path to what Mentu describes as pursuing the serial monogamy hall of fame, falling in love with a series of (they hope) ever better men.  Early in their search they would no doubt have this as their number one must have criteria.  However, after some period of time even chaste women who find they haven’t located a husband are tempted to lower their standards in this area in order to not have to compromise in the areas of wealth and success.  I’ve argued strongly that women should not do this, and continue to feel this way.

Bullet number three is where it gets interesting.  While wives submitting to their husbands is a clear command in the New Testament, very few devout Christians even take this seriously in practice.  It flies against the norms of our culture, and even those who are very traditional are likely to be alarmed by the statement.

In fact, bullet number three should frighten you.  If it doesn’t, you likely aren’t understanding the gravity of the situation.  I’m assuming it immediately raised questions in your mind like:

  • What if he is abusive?
  • What if he won’t take her needs and wants into sufficient consideration when making decisions?
  • What if he is prone to make risky or irresponsible decisions?
  • What if he isn’t faithful?
  • What if he isn’t motivated to work to provide for his family?
  • What are his religious and moral values?
  • Is he a kind person?
  • Is he mentally and emotionally stable?
  • Is he capable of leading her in a way which she is comfortable following? (leadership style/game)

The proof that this is the right process is that these are all of the right questions.  These are the questions women looking to marry should be asking but very often aren’t.

This also resolves the problem of the wife potentially moving in a different direction than her husband over time.  If she is following his leadership, while change is nearly guaranteed they will be changing together.  In picking him she is both making a guess at the kind of life she hopes to live and picking someone she trusts to work with her while navigating the process.  In the true spirit of one and done marriage, she is hooking her wagon to him for the duration.  For richer or poorer, in sickness and health, they will succeed or fail together.  If she does this not only will she be much more likely to remain in love with and attracted to her husband, but she will also remain happier because she won’t be second guessing her choice.

Women who don’t follow the third criteria have an additional problem beyond the lack of attraction for their husband and the unhappiness which comes from second guessing past decisions;  they very likely will end up wherever he leads them anyway, or at the very least they will experience the negative results of his leadership either way.  Feminism can be described largely as a process whereby we remove women’s fear of bad outcomes.  However, the reality is the consequences of a poor choice of mate are so great that they can’t truly be shielded from them.  At the best they will largely shift the harm onto the man and their own children while making the man the patsy.

But this still leaves the question of how young a woman should marry.  The answer is no younger than she is responsible enough to actually make this kind of decision, and only then once she has found the man who meets all three criteria.  The reality is while the list of criteria is short, this is a very difficult puzzle to solve.  Such a man isn’t going to be common, so she had better start looking immediately if she hopes to find him.  The process could very well take years, perhaps quite a few.  If she isn’t mature enough, she needs to focus on maturing as soon as possible so she can get in the race.  However long the process will take, it can’t start until she is ready.  If she finds Mr. Right while she is still childish it won’t do her any good.  Starting early has the added benefits of preventing her from developing a sexual history along with a taste for alphas along the way.  It also allows her to take maximum advantage of her youth, beauty, and fertility when competing with other women for the best potential husbands while avoiding the dwindling options which accompany being the last to choose.

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350 Responses to How young should a woman marry? (Part 1)

  1. Johnycomelately says:

    Good advice but women will opine, “you cannot plan on who you will fall in love with, it just happens.”

  2. gritartisan says:

    Women are currently telling you how young they should marry: spinster age, for #1.

    They tell you at what age they find their dream man: the bad boy from 9th grade age 16, #2.

    They tell you what age they answer #3, 50+ years old, when he could order her to do anything and she will do it out of dread.

    Is the real question how do you align age 16, age 30+/-, and age 50 into the same year?

  3. Anonymous Reader says:

    This advice is probably as good or better than any advice a young woman would have gotten from her father generations ago. It is more practical, and takes a longer view, than any “advice” handed out today. Feminists will despise it, and so what of that?

    What will be interesting to watch for are reactions from those who call themselves “traditional”, “conservative”, “traditional conservative”, “social conservative” and so forth. Because this solves the overarching, catastrophic, problem of the age – the player/PUA/cad who might triflle with a young lady. It solves that issue by definition.

    And so, any “yes, but….” replies will be involved with some other problem. Yes. We’ll see.

  4. elemental says:

    A woman’s life mission in her mind is to find a man who is worthy of marriage in her mind, or at least that should be the case.

    I would add there’s another dimension to this particular problem: Women are also looking for the best genetic deal in a man. They are not attracted to tall men by coincidence; evolutionary psychology and the very nature of females dictate that a tall, muscular man is superior. They are quasi-eugenicists, to put it simply.

    And these base mechanisms for selecting a male partner explain other preferences such as their attraction to cold and dismissive men. Because of evolution what attracts women has become optimized and narrow. This is why it seems that women have single type of guy that they adore, and this usually a man who is tall, muscular, and exhibits Alpha traits.

    It comes down to the fact women tend to chase the same type of guy, and would rather compete among each other for his attention rather than compromise for an average guy (even above average). There is no settling for anyone but the most “superior” as this is the true nature of hypergamy.

  5. Brendan says:

    But this still leaves the question of how young a woman should marry. The answer is no younger than she is responsible enough to actually make this kind of decision, and only then once she has found the man who meets all three criteria. The reality is while the list of criteria is short, this is a very difficult puzzle to solve. Such a man isn’t going to be common, so she had better start looking immediately if she hopes to find him. The process could very well take years, perhaps quite a few. If she isn’t mature enough, she needs to focus on maturing as soon as possible so she can get in the race. However long the process will take, it can’t start until she is ready.

    And …

    We find ourselves in violent agreement, unsurprisingly.

    Great post.

  6. How to tell if your future wife will submit to you and follow your lead? Ask yourself, is she pulling with me, or against me? If you get the feeling she is pulling against you and still playing her own game, rather than teaming up with you, that is a bad sign.

    And watch what she does, not what she says. Plenty of women repeat some feminist twaddle, but when push comes to shove, they submit. Plenty of women seem feminine and traditional, but there is no way she is going to actually obey you if it, like, inconveniences her.

    They are funny creatures. My wife was ranting at me this morning about one thing and another, but I still got breakfast in bed. Actions, not words, gentlemen. Talk, especially female talk, is cheap.

  7. And yes, despite what you will read in Readers Digest, being a bit cold with your wife sometimes is good tactics. It keeps her on the hop.

  8. SC says:

    I have to admit, my concern is more with the men who would have to live with the consequences of marrying a woman in her early 20s. This culture, where a woman’s feelings are the only justification she needs to do anything, is very dangerous for any man, especially those who marry young women. I’d agree with you if we lived in a society that held women to their responsibilities but girls today just aren’t.

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    On behalf of Uncle Elmer who isn’t here lately, I will suggest that young women and young men who are marriage minded should learn to dance – not that pogo-hopping that has been the “latest thing” since the Boomers were 20, or the crude grinding/spearing that is all the rage now, but really, genuine, dancing. At the very least, a passible two-step, waltz, and jitterbug would be appropriate. Ballroom dancing demands that he lead and she follow, both alien things in the modern world. As alien as Dalrock’s article…

  10. Yes, ballroom dancing is amazing. The sociology I mean. My wife and I were recently being taught a standard move in which the man basically walks at the woman and forces her backwards. Not sideways, but backwards. It is incredibly assertive and feels very strange.

    And yet, women love ballroom dancing. Hmmm.

  11. Lana says:

    The problem I had is that my 18-19 year old brain was not very wise and discerning. I knew I should look for a Christian, but beyond that, and finding the man attractive, I didn’t have a clear sense of what I should be evaluating a man on. This is where I think we really throw young people out on their own, way too much. I wish parents and the church community would be more involved, because they can use their wisdom and experience to help guide the young and inexperienced toward solid marriages. Then again, I think a lot of people are like me in that our own parents did a poor job of mate selection, and whether they divorced or not, didn’t have a good marriage model we could follow. My parents tried, but how could they advise me how to succeed at something where they had failed? A lot of their advice had to do with avoiding what they saw as their mistakes: marrying too young, marrying someone fundamentally incompatible, etc. Some of the things you advise here were the things that seemed dangerous to me: marrying young, marrying before I really knew myself, marrying before I could support myself financially. And I understand that these things don’t have to be scary if the marriage is good. But when you have seen an unhappy marriage up close, and now deal with older divorced parents, you definitely come to feel like marriage is a minefield and one must be be smart about entering into it, with some thought of what you’ll do if the other person leaves. I know you talk a lot about women leaving, but it was my Dad who cheated and left, so I’m sure you can understand why I feared that.

  12. Lana, about 25 for a woman, maybe 30 for a man? To settle down.

  13. Jennifer says:

    “The answer is no younger than she is responsible enough to actually make this kind of decision, and only then once she has found the man who meets all three criteria”

    Wonderfully answered, Dalrock. THANK you for addressing women’s concerns. Many women can’t marry before late 20’s, which is hardly a brick wall, but the problem arises when a mass number of women avoid doing so when they COULD have.

  14. Jennifer says:

    Sounds very awkward indeed, DC, the force involved.

  15. Jennifer, I have a domineering streak, but I also have my shy moments. It was the Cuban Walk in the rumba. I couldn’t believe I was supposed to just push her backwards. I have written a poem here about our dancing:

    http://davidcollard.wordpress.com/2012/04/18/when-my-wife-and-i-go-dancing-draft/

  16. Jennifer says:

    Cuban Walk, wow! That poem is charming, David :)

  17. canecaldo says:

    “This also resolves the problem of the wife potentially moving in a different direction than her husband over time. If she is following his leadership, while change is nearly guaranteed they will be changing together. In picking him she is both making a guess at the kind of life she hopes to live and picking someone she trusts to work with her while navigating the process. In the true spirit of one and done marriage, she is hooking her wagon to him for the duration. For richer or poorer, in sickness and health, they will succeed or fail together. If she does this not only will she be much more likely to remain in love with and attracted to her husband, but she will also remain happier because she won’t be second guessing her choice.

    Bingo. Naturally, this ties in with marrying young, too. She’s more willing to be led. I’m sure there’s some ethnic proverb about trees growing together, entwined. Hard to do that when you’re both already rooted in your ways.

    I think 18-25 is the about the right age range for women; 20-30 for men, depending on her age.

    If they’ve both picked good partners, developing an us-against-the-world attitude will serve them well. This is also easier to do when you’re young and idealistic. Such a mindset will be a default defense against outside influences. It’s not an insurmountable defense, but a good place to start.

  18. Thank you, Jennifer. That poem seems to appeal to women.

    It was my wife that wanted us to learn ballroom dancing.

  19. canecaldo, good points. You grow a bit, but together.

    I remember an older man thinking my young wife and I were brother and sister. I suppose we looked very similar to his English eyes, with our Irish-Australian looks. And we seemed to be a team.

    I don’t know why he imagined we shared a bedroom.

    BTW, watched Disco yet?

  20. Brendan says:

    Naturally, this ties in with marrying young, too. She’s more willing to be led.

    Nope. Not a given. Dalrock’s paragraph on age says it more correctly.

  21. Jennifer says:

    18’s pretty young for a woman, but it works for some. The analogy to trees is beautiful and apt.

    Thanks for sharing the poem, David. I think women love the fanciness of ballroom dancing (I myself find some of it too jerky and almost pretentious-looking) and the poem paints an exotic picture of romantic dance and a wild night. There were TWO dances I loved during “Dancing with the Stars” and they both had Susan Boyle singing.

  22. Jennifer says:

    Oh yes, I was fond of the poem’s comparison to planets, too. You may like similar styles in John Piper’s book, “Velvet Steel”, poems to his wife.

  23. canecaldo says:

    “The problem I had is that my 18-19 year old brain was not very wise and discerning. I knew I should look for a Christian, but beyond that, and finding the man attractive, I didn’t have a clear sense of what I should be evaluating a man on. This is where I think we really throw young people out on their own, way too much. I wish parents and the church community would be more involved, because they can use their wisdom and experience to help guide the young and inexperienced toward solid marriages.”

    This is a big problem. Our solution was–that as long as you’re in this house–there is no personal space, and no one is allowed to hang out all day in the bedrooms with iPods on. I know this doesn’t seem to have much to do with marriage, but it is crucial for setting the standard that parents are involved in everything. Later, when I say that we have certain expectations, it doesn’t feel like I’m stepping on their turf. I’ve watched several sets of parents (almost all) give their kids the run of the place, caving to appeals for privacy, or letting them find their way. When those same parents finally try to draw a line in the sand, there’s not just disappointment–it’s an emotional outburst, and rebellion. Guiding mate selection under those circumstances is nearly impossible.

  24. joe says:

    “Sounds very awkward indeed, DC, the force involved”
    The lady doth protest too much, methinks

    Reading Jennifers posts around these parts and other makes me think that she might be one of the one women who DC notes “repeat some feminist twaddle, but when push comes to shove, they submit.” She is always eager to decry male dominance over women, but she never completes shuts the door on the idea. There is always just a slight crack of something left unsaid. She is a bit of a tease like that. I think it intrigues her as much as it scares her. Maybe a good bare-bottom spanking would set her straight :)

  25. canecaldo says:

    Nope. Not a given. Dalrock’s paragraph on age says it more correctly.

    No, it’s not a given. What is, though? Given the (very little) bit of your story that I’ve read, I can see why you’d be at pains to make this clear. I should have written “She’s much more likely to be willing to be led.” There are always several factors at play. 20 may be too young for Sally to marry 25yo Gradschool Greg, but not too young to marry 23 Marine Mark.

    If all else is well with the relationship, then as a general rule, I think younger is better.

  26. joe, I think that is a different Jennifer.

  27. H says:

    This is off topic. I was told today by a Christian man that the entirety of my wife’s choices are my fault. She can only respond to me, so if she is sinning then it is because I didn’t initiate well. I did not cheat on, or abuse (in ANY sense of the word) my wife. I have treated her with nothing but patience and have sought to be reconciled with her despite her awful treatment of me time and again. The Christian man sent me to this site, and this is a post by one of the wives who posts on the boards. I think you’ll find it interesting.

    http://joelandkathy.invisionzone.com/index.php?/topic/3433-wives-a-sample-of-a-marriage-manual-by-ornate-design/

    The big parts are that the wife declares she is incapable of not sinning unless the husband fully cherishes her. If he doesn’t do that, then she worries, reacts angrily, etc and it is his fault.

    I read MMSL, I love Athol (I disagree with him about his porn stuff). I know I was too beta. I love Jesus and I want to serve Him and I did everything I knew to do to pursue my wife up to the point she sued me for a no-fault divorce.

  28. TangoMan says:

    Yes, ballroom dancing is amazing. The sociology I mean.

    Here’s a pure dominance move that works very well and is stylish as hell with the waltz, foxtrot, Viennese waltz, and tango. Grab your lady by the arm, before the music starts, take her onto the dance floor, then as the music begins, twirl her out, release your hold and aim for her to stop about 5 feet in front of you. Command her to stay there. Take a step back, put out your left hand and beckon her to come to you. Bring her into your embrace, dance hold. Make full torso contact, Shift weight from one foot to the other, giving her no choice but to do the same, wait for the a new measure to begin in the music, and then launch with a powerful stride, right through where she is standing – she’ll move with you because you give her no choice – she is following.

    I’m not sure exactly where you are in your lessons, it sounds like you’re doing American style syllabus and maybe Bronze? level so I’m not sure if you’re dancing yet with full torso contact in the Standard dances, but if you’re not, then you should be.

  29. Jennifer says:

    Anyone who pushes too severely in the opposite direction, Joe, seems fascinated by the idea of spanking me; I think they’re more obsessed with me, even amidst their insults, than they claim I am with the issue of domineering. I haven’t posted this many posts on Dalrock’s for a long time, nor do I frequent “these parts” for long intervals.

  30. Random Angeleno says:

    About dancing, it’s not just ballroom dancing, but partner dancing in general. A man can tell much about a woman from her degree of willingness to follow his lead.

    I know the Cuban Walk in rumba. But that is not the only one. Check out the basic move in American style tango. Or the basic change step in waltz for that matter. All of these involve the man driving forward and the woman going backward. So for a man to be a good lead and the woman to look good doing these dances, the man has to set a firm frame within which the woman can easily follow his lead no matter which direction he is taking her. Cha cha and salsa are other examples of dances that reward good leading for men and good following for women.

  31. bob says:

    And at what age should a man enter the Charlie Foxtrot that is Marriage 2.0? I’d say that no age is the correct age to commit suicide.

  32. joe says:

    @Jennifer
    You’re Welcome.

    @ Our Host
    I apologize for getting off topic. Now back to your regularly schedule program, already in progress.

  33. RA

    Yes. The teacher, a woman, made it quite clear. “The man is the boss”. I asked if I could have that in writing. Most of the time, the man guides the lady around firmly. I am still learning.

    Not to be crude, but I seem to have this clearer in the bedroom than the ballroom.

  34. DE says:

    I would think that most women can start the process of looking for a permanent partner at age 22 or 23 then.

  35. H, next woman, smack her arse a bit. Works wonders.

    TangoMan, where are we in our lessons? God knows. We keep getting different teachers, learning different dances. We are not spring chickens (in our fifties) either. We have the waltz and swing sort of under control. Maybe rumba, tango and foxtrot a bit. The only major dance we have not touched on is the cha-cha. It is all a jumble.

  36. driversuz says:

    David, I suspect that in the bedroom, your motives are clearer as well!

    Dalrock, if I may gush, this post is excellent! You’ve covered the most important issues. There are no guarantees, but this is the sort of advice that, if followed, GREATLY REDUCES the risk of divorce and/or unhappiness. Young women who want to marry, NEED to seriously consider these criteria, and ask themselves those questions. They must be reminded (or taught for the first time) that marriage is not a game, and pre-marriage relationships are not harmless “trial runs.”

    Really good comments here too!

  37. Bwana Simba says:

    I say late teens is great for marriage for women. Women never mature beyond 18 anyhow. My mother sure as hell didn’t, although she was daddy’s girl and she did marry a local alpha/ bad boy/ “wild man”/ asshole so she got to be more girly than all the women who didn’t and essentially became mothers to grown men looking for a mommy figure. Plus, if college is any indication, women’s looks nowadays don’t last long after their 20th birthday. Hell a lot of girls don’t look that good coming out of high school anymore.

  38. canecaldo says:

    And at what age should a man enter the Charlie Foxtrot that is Marriage 2.0? I’d say that no age is the correct age to commit suicide.

    I see what you’re saying, but I want to be a Christian and have sex…sometimes the order varies, I’m sorry to report. There is no alternative. All any of us can do is try to stack the deck in our favor, and in the favor of those around us.

    On the plus side: It seems that following God’s will actually pays off (this is the deck stacking I was talking about) whenever I bother to do so. That doesn’t mean everything turns out right (it doesn’t), or that I have special protection (I don’t). This isn’t a spell. But it does mean that the morals and stories bequeathed to me are actually quite useful, and not just old ramblings.

    And, I’m not dead yet.

  39. TangoMan says:

    About dancing, it’s not just ballroom dancing, but partner dancing in general. A man can tell much about a woman from her degree of willingness to follow his lead.

    There’s the flip-side too – a man takes command of the woman. A man who is a good dancer can take a woman who dances like a sack of potatoes onto the floor and put her through her paces so she feels that she’s frickin Cinderella out there. There’s nothing like a 16-25 year old dude practicing this skill with women who are 40-60. They outweigh you, most likely, and many of them have the grace of elephants. The payoff comes from developing the skills so that you can take a young lady with no dance experience AT ALL out on the floor at some club or wedding or university or salsa dance, and really make her feel like Cinderella. They’re unsure of themselves, they don’t know how good of a dancer you are and then BAM, all of their friends are watching as you put her in the center spotlight. Once you’ve broken the ice with the brave and adventurous one, her hotter friends also want to be Cinderella. Talk about total submission. And that’s to a total stranger.

  40. DE, yes.

    CaneCaldo, exactly. Some if us want to be Christians, get married sex, and not end up as saps.

  41. Jennifer says:

    “Women never mature beyond 18 anyhow”

    LOL

  42. Jennifer says:

    Plenty of good reasons to avoid fancy dancing, then. Goodnight.

  43. Smyrna says:

    Good post. I can agree with a lot here.

  44. an observer says:

    Women should marry when they. . .

    1. Abandon the fallacy of their beliefs in equal opportunity
    2. Understand there is no pay gap between men and women
    3. Will willingly sign a pre nup
    4. Recognises that romantic comedies are a lie from start to finish
    5. Gives up the option to sleep with a string of puas through her twenties
    6. Recognises that alcohol and grains will make her fat and old, more quickly
    7. Can give up believing she can fix people by dating or sleeping with them
    8. Denounce support for the welfare/warfare state
    9. Agree to submit to a man’s leadership
    10. Quit complaining about men’s behaviours in a matriarchical, polyamourous society

    In other words, when they can consistently behave like an adult and accept that decisions have cpnsequences, sometimes unforeseen.

    Wishful thinking, i know.

    In short, somewhere 21 and 25 could work. But this would presume she wants to learn how to be a wife. Most women are brainwashed to want the career, because being a mom is so declasse.

    However, i would point out that verbal dexterity is often mistakenly interpreted as a sign of maturity. Girls can often be more vocally advanced than boys at the same age. Does she use langauge to build up, or tear down? Does she show respect, or fawning attempts at whorish attention seeking?

    Sadly, most women are not ready to be married by 25 because they are told not to depend on a man, to have a career to fall back on, and to grow up a bit. Growing up will happen when married, too. And most wimmin interpret this tomean they can trade in a boyfrirnd until their time on the carousel unexpectedly runs out.

    So the ride ends, its game over, and suddenly there is a man drought because now all the available men (read: the most attractive, high status ones she would readily sleep with) are’nt returning her calls or text messages.

    Meanwhile, normal guys who watched this play out for ten years or more really have no wish to become the women’s emotional/financial/last reserve dickstand and avoid the aging spinsters at all costs. Because quite frankly, we have seen it all too often and are really tired of it.

    Mgtow, now is your time.

  45. deti says:

    1.Men who are (or are likely to be) interested in marrying her.

    MuleChewingBriars has a good saying: “You get to pick only from the men who are interested in you; not from the men who aren’t.”

  46. jso says:

    “I did not cheat on, or abuse (in ANY sense of the word) my wife. I have treated her with nothing but patience and have sought to be reconciled with her despite her awful treatment of me time and again.”

    you did nothing wrong, and yet you did everything wrong. for two rational human beings, everything you did was decent and civil, the basis for all civilization and a healthy relationship. it’s also everything that a feminized western woman hates. you gave her no drama, so she was forced to manufacture it, and when you responded to her disingenuous drama with reason and logic, it infuriated her even more.

  47. deti says:

    “If he isn’t interested in marriage, she shouldn’t consider him when considering her options. The same goes for men who might be interested in marriage but don’t demonstrate an interest in marrying her.”

    This means a lot of late teens/early 20s women will be looking to men from mid 20s to low 30s, I suspect. It’s probably for the best. I was in college from age 18 to 22 and then grad school from age 22 to 25. Sure I did a fair amount of dating. I thought about marriage but to me, as to most all the men in my age and college group in our early 20s, marriage was something to think about “someday”. We were dating for fun and sex. We weren’t dating to look for wives, and we weren’t really thinking much about whether we would still be with this girl next year.

  48. canecaldo says:

    @An Observer
    “Women should marry when they. . .

    If you can get a 5 and 9, the rest will fall into place, often enough.

    @Brendan
    An Observer’s point 5 is one good reason to believe that a younger woman is a significantly safer bet. There’s simply less time to make those bad decisions with irreparable consequences.

  49. Sheera says:

    I don’t think its a good idea for there to be too big of an age gap between men and woman. I have a friend in his late thirties who tries to date woman in their twenties, and some are even in their early twenties. I don’t know how to say it politely but nine out of ten of these girls will be totally creeped out by his interest. The older girls he dates (ten years younger then him), he’s always babysitting. Roissy’s stance is woman are two legs with a vagina, they have no mind and he seeks no companionship from them,which is probably why youth is such a big deal with him. There may be some younger girls who like the idea of dating a rich old dude, but they’re weird and probably doing it for money.
    I’m single Christian, 32 and totally pursuing my career and I love it. My mom got saddled when she was nineteen and had tons of children right away. I don’t think she ever really grew up. Sometimes I think I should want a man more and I can’t figure out why I don’t. I like the manosphere, even though I don’t agree with a lot of what you say, I think all of you guys say it in a manly way, which is kinda nice. Maybe its because so many of the guys I know, or perhaps attract, are such total idiots. Irresponsible, selfish, lust filled…well I’m being a harsh, I’m actually thinking of one of my friends right now. But no one’s been out there that’s made me think this is the guy I’d like to make breakfast in bed for. This is the guy who’se children I want to have. Maybe my dad and my brothers have made me think marriage sucks. I have a friend in her late twenties who was about to throw herself over a bridge because she hadn’t found a boyfriend who would end up marrying her. But her dad was great, he really fulfilled his role and loved her a lot and her mother. OH year I’m a virgin, I haven’t even kissed a man….and I’ve been told I’m beautiful, by many many people. In fact I think I’m happier single then dating…
    Neways Dalrock’s post is great, and honestly as a Christian woman you should pursue marriage and family first. But you can be happy whatever way God sees fit. Single or married, just make the most of it. Cheers!!

  50. Joe Sheehy says:

    Women who want Christian marriage need to actually want Christian marriage. Everything else follows from that. If they don’t want it, then they will not be happy with it. Judging men by money and success is not so wise. A man’s intentions are what counts, for Christian women who want Christian marriage. Those of you who accept contraception as being morally licit should realize that it is contraception that has allowed for the substitution of pleasure and “career” for the place motherhood as the ideal of womanhood.

  51. Joe Sheehy says:

    “I don’t think its a good idea for there to be too big of an age gap between men and woman. I have a friend in his late thirties who tries to date woman in their twenties, and some are even in their early twenties. I don’t know how to say it politely but nine out of ten of these girls will be totally creeped out by his interest. ”

    With all due respect, that view is something that women such as yourself have an interest in propagating, and the being “creeped out” aspect is more about social shaming from other women than it is about a natural aversion to older men. Younger women are attracted to older men. That’s the reality. What dampers the attraction tends to be the imposition of social judgment, often by jealous females and the disapproval of older men attached to women close to them in age. It has nothing to do with traditional ideas of what was considered normal.

    It amazes me how women can go gaga over 19th Century Romance novels depicted in film but then claim that older men pursuing younger women are creepy. One more thing: women can be attracted to older men and it has nothing to do with money. Older men are not Old men.

  52. Sheera says:

    Let me rephrase that, the vast majority of woman who are nineteen years old will not be attracted to the average man who is forty years old. Maybe if he’s Bruce Willis or Van Diesal or something like that they won’t be so picky. And I know this because when I was in my twenties and late teens, these forty years old would go after these young chicks at church dances etc. and the girls would be totally creeped out. In fact they would be making fun of them behind their backs. Everyone had at least one chaser
    But hey if you think the younger girl older man thing is a good thing…go for it. I had a friend who’se aunt married someone who was as old as her mother. So sometimes it does work out, I just think in the majority of case it may be offensive to some of these younger girls.

  53. Sheera, agree completely about older men. 10 years age difference is the absolute maximum, at least for younger women. I think 3o and 20 is too much, really. I was 30, my wife 25, when we married.

    If you are 32 and unkissed, you are quite the outlier.

    As for career, my wife got up the duff pretty quickly and we have three, but now I have semi-retired and she is getting a clear run at her career. I agree with somebody here who wrote that it is a false dichotomy to imply that it is either SAHM or full-on careerist. Most women mix and match. My wife has.

    I am 56. If my wife were to die and I felt interested in another woman, I might look for a woman in her forties. No younger.

  54. Joe Sheehy says:

    “And I know this because when I was in my twenties and late teens, these forty years old would go after these young chicks at church dances etc. and the girls would be totally creeped out. In fact they would be making fun of them behind their backs. Everyone had at least one chaser”

    Yeah, they might make fun of the men. That’s part of the social shaming. I’ve seen the way the young women act towards men older than them. A 20 year age difference is a bit much, but the Jane Austen books and Jane Eyre, etc, have big age differences. Men 17 years older, etc.

    For all the giggling about “creeps” – the fact is there are plenty of girls who go with older men, and there always have been. It’s very critical for older women, and for men married to aging women, to maintain this defense mechanism. Especially in anglo-feminist countries.

    If a girl is attracted she’s attracted. A number doesn’t change attraction. Is a 40 year old man likely to be so attractive? Not necessarily. Yet look at the case of that teacher in California, they’ve trumped up charges from over a decade ago because he shacked up with his very pretty student.

    You’re a 32 year old woman, and no handsome 40 year old man has to go with a 32 year old woman. He can easily find a younger one. That’s the reality. You are the one engaging in wishful thinking.

  55. an observer says:

    Sheera,

    Age gaps are not creepy, they are to be expected. Women like older men. That you find it creepy is a shaming tactic aging women use to modify men’s behaviour.

    Quite simply, you are overstating your declining appeal to men, who see and value attributes differently. So you have a satisfying career. How has it prepared you to be a wife? Mother? Or helpmeet?

    Your mom may have been brainwashed to believe the feminists that a career is more valuable than shaping her childrens lives. Certainly you seem to have absorbed that message, suggesting you were part of the unfair ‘saddling’ (oh, the horror!) she endured. And now you are overcompensating to that message by delaying marriage and risking singledom.

    Careers get old, fast. What you enjoy working at now may not be quite as interesting in ten, twenty or more years time.

    You do claim one big advantage, however, over most of your misguided sisters: a low partner count. But the focus on career has already cost you. Men do not value a woman’s career anywhere near what the woman does. You already demonstrate an unwillingness to think about that.

    And the last point. Any friend of yours who has been waiting on the sidelines for you to be ready for a serious relationship may be much less willing than you think to actually have one with you. Unless he is a total white knighting, woman worshiping beta whose children you will have, and from whom you will subsequently divorce in disgust, once the kiddies are in preschool.

    Seen it all before. . . And will see it all again. Many times.

  56. Very good post. You should have a fatherly advice for girls section.
    The timing is the hard thing to do because of herd mentality even if a woman fill all those requirements at 20 if her peers are not marrying she won’t want to be the first one, at least not nowdays when marrying young is shamed to heaven’s above.
    I think is important if you are going to do a part 2 to mention to this young women that this choice most be make in a personal way regardless of peer presure because as much as those friends might love you they can be blind to the best chance at a good happy marriage you will ever get, specially if they themselves don’t know how a happy marriage looks like due to lack of real life examples. So some assertiveness in regards to female friends is a must for any young woman seeking marriage, YMMV.

  57. ray says:

    It was my wife that wanted us to learn ballroom dancing.

    David, i am just so surprised to hear that

    and the Clogging? you telling me SHE suggested that too?

  58. P Ray says:

    @Sheera:
    Aging women trying to compete against younger women by telling them their choices of mate is “wrong”.
    What happened to “my body my choice”?
    Oh yeah – unless it benefits the older women first, it’s wrong! :)

  59. A handsome 40 year old man might choose a pretty, accomplished 32 year old. I can imagine that. But she would have to be an exceptional woman.

    Sheera, I also get a little peeved when women run their mothers down for – essentially – giving them life. It reminds me of pro-abort feminists who are descended from a long line of women who chose to be open to life.

  60. an observer says:

    P Ray,

    Two acquaintances in their thirties. Both career people. Neither attracted to the other.

    She dates older divorced man in his sixties. He is successful, charming and almost twice her age. No eyelids are batted. They eventually separate after lengthy, on and off again relationship. She marries a beta provider, has two children, spends next ten years doubting her actions.

    He dates woman in her early twenties. Questions are asked. Eyebrows raised. Objections stated.
    They marry, have two children and are by all accounts very happy, ten years on.

    Most amusing outcome: the woman bitterly criticised the fellow for dating a younger woman as somehow disloyal, as though he should only have dated women his own age. Of course, this never applies to the woman, who should be free to throw herself at anyone.

    Double standard, anyone?

    As Dave Barry used to say, i am not making this up…

  61. an observer says:

    David Collard

    Agree that dissing your own parent for essentially not aborting your own life is uncool. As well as being tautologically shortsighted.

    Some years ago, i read an article on the flipside of that argument in the daily mail (motto: by hamsters, for hamsters). An aging woman ‘bravely’ came out and admitted how boring parenting is. Worst of all, one of her boys supported the argument, likely furthering his adult career as emotional tampon to wimmins lack or fulfilment, or as big d puts it, haaaapiness.

    Sad.

  62. Joe Sheehy says:

    “He dates woman in her early twenties. Questions are asked. Eyebrows raised. Objections stated.”

    Allowing collective female vanity and egotism to be the basis of social mores is insanity. Young women were once mothers, and in that sense they helped to transmit values. Now they use their sexual power to drag down the values of society to what benefits loose women. Of course they couldn’t get away with it without elite complicity. Whoever controls the young women in the society controls the society. Once young women were under the influence of their families, their religion, and their husbands. Now they take their cues from the propagandists on tv and in the university. There’s no way out until control over them is taken back.

  63. an observer says:

    Young women are enormously favoured by education systems, nofault divorce and legalised transfer mechanisms.

    All of these are contributing towards older first marriages, and higher likelihood of divorce.

    More women than man are now enrolled in college. But they are more likely to do a humanities, liberal arts or other such enriching course at high expense that does little to contribute towards sustaining civilisation. (And often regurgitate the wtong headed lies that may lead them to middle aged spibsterhood and seversl cats).

    So if that high flying media/hr/liberts arts grad finally consents to marry some schlubb, she has an out. Dissolve the marriage because his chewing breakfast annoys you, get cash and prizes. Awesome. Unless you’re the one being forced to pay for it.

    We are getting away from topic, i realise. But there is little incentive for women to marry when many believe a better boyfriend is just around the corner (or under the sheets, i suppose). Much is said of men lacking commitment, but it is a furphy. It is women who want first into marriage ( with the best alpha she can snag) and women who first want out. There is little commitment with this approach. The stats show it time and time again. Women plan and initiate most divorces, often over lengthy tine periods.

    The age of first marriage is unlikely to drop unless accompanied by extreme changes in societal mores, expectations and tbe accompanying legal framework.

  64. an observer,

    Yes. There was an academic philosophical argument I once read, by a pro-abortion woman, who said that a good thought experiment was, how would you feel if somebody came and made you pregnant overnight (attached you to someone else, so that you had to nurture them for nine months via tubes – an analogy for pregnancy)?

    I thought, there are two things left out of the thought experiment. One is that you will mostly likely get to choose if you are at risk of finding yourself in this situation; and the second is that you only exist in the first place because somebody else accepted the situation.

    We were talking about self-hating men today at Patriactionary. Some men feel that the best thing to do is to go along to get along. A man might be particularly inclined to agree with a feminist mother. But a man essentially saying, yes I was a boring waste of time to my mother, reminds me of that story Malcolm Muggeridge told of some communist parade in which a small group of capitalists were made to carry a sign reading “Down With Us”.

  65. Joe Sheehy says:

    “The age of first marriage is unlikely to drop unless accompanied by extreme changes in societal mores, expectations and tbe accompanying legal framework.”

    Any conscious opposition has to be among traditionalists, sheltering their families, swallowing their pride when the girl comes of age, and helping her to find a good mate and start a family with assistance and support for the girl and her groom..

  66. an observer, the courses young women do should, really, be rather good for mothers, especially if they plan to enrich their children’s minds with the culture. This is what intelligent women used to do; they would marry a clever man, provide him with a cultured home, and help to nurture the minds, as well as the bodies, of their children. I recall a talk by Adlai Stevenson being referred to, at some place like Vassar or Smith, in which he essentially said, isn’t it great that you will one day make such wonderful wives and mothers. Good sense, but these days he would be strung up for saying that.

  67. Joe Sheehy says:

    .”I recall a talk by Adlai Stevenson being referred to, at some place like Vassar or Smith,”

    The problem is they didn’t. Read Feminism: It’s Fallacies and Follies. Overcoming feminism will require a hardline. A hardline means rejecting 19th Century feminism, not just 20th. I just don’t see the willingness for a hardline to be taken, unfortuately.

  68. I suspect some of the really upper-class girls still do follow that line. The thing was that it was a really good life for some of those women. They had time to pursue their own cultural interests, at least once the care of really young children was past. My mother did something a bit like this in upper middle class Melbourne, Australia, in the late 1950s and early 1960s.

    There is a surprising amount one can do from home. Writing, obviously. Painting. I knew a SAHM who was doing a PhD in mathematics, part-time.

  69. P Ray says:

    @an observer:
    Nature always has some revenge for those who think they can have it all.
    They … have it all, good and bad :)

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2134215/Fertility-drugs-double-chances-children-developing-leukaemia.html

    Not to mention the pollution of the water table and fish changing sex due to excess estrogen from the birth control pill.
    Ooops, excess estrogen also causes breast cancer.
    Some people think there is no price to pay for the consequences they make, they’ll discover all that is done is the payment has been deferred, or gets passed down.

  70. P Ray says:

    @David Collard:
    I’m wondering if the idea of “must go to college and kids will stifle me” is simply another way of saying “need to get on cock carousel, it’s gonna be fun”.
    Someone truly interested in education or furthering their knowledge isn’t going to feel their experience is stifled by living up to a routine.
    On the other hand, someone intending to play Girls Gone Wild is going to claim any demands made of them is stifling their academic integrity.

  71. Opus says:

    I believe that I may have mentioned this before: An English Statistician recently having given his slide-rule a serious work-out, concluded that the best age for a man and woman to marry was respectively 32 and 27. Not bad you might think, but sadly he had not consulted nature. If a woman is single at 27, then barring bad luck, she will have either a collection of monogamous relationships behind her (not too good) or an even larger collection of one night stands (even worse). Even if she has been chaste, she will be asking herself, given that she is a mature woman, what possible benefit marriage could be to her.

    Nature does not use a slide-rule and has decreed that a woman is suitable for marriage between the ages of 14 and 46 and the younger you are the easier it is to desire to marry and make a go of it. The woman in her thirties or beyond who talks about marriage as a possibility (provided all her requirements are met) is misleading you and deluding herself.

  72. P Ray

    There is a theory, by Steve Moxon, that everything women do is fundamentally about hypergamy. I suppose it is the flip side of the theory that men do everything we do to get sex with hotties. I am not prepared to be that reductionist. Moxon argues that women go into the world of work and career because that’s where the boys are. That they will have a shot at the top dogs. But, really, then why not just put on a short skirt and become a secretary?

    Women can have ambition, not unlike men. Lady Macbeth had plenty of ambition.

    I suppose colleges are good places to meet athletes. As was noted, the Duke slut had sex with athletes, not intellectuals. I am sure that male intellectuals do well in some other environment. Especially packaged as cutting-edge and hip. Campus radicals never lacked female companionship.

    So, I don’t know. Maybe college provides girls with a smorgasbord of boys, for them to make a selection. It keeps their options open.

  73. Opus says:

    @David Collard

    Allow me to attempt to answer your conundrum (pace Moxon) as to why women don’t all, merely wear a short skirt, so as to attract male attention in the office; and by reference a saying in the Medical Profession. The crude saying (over here) has it that the male Doctors ‘fuck the nurses yet marry the Doctors’. Now why? It would seem that in some way the female Doctor is showing greater fitness or at least outshining the other females.

    I realise this contradicts the idea in the man-o-sphere that beauty is the only thing that matters. It clearly is not. It may have something to do with class, or intelligence, and thus genetic fitness. Certainly, and speaking for myself, I would never even look at an uneducated woman, no matter how cute. (I would quickly grow bored). Intelligence shows in the eyes and the voice, and is attractive in its own right. Of course when I was younger, that might not have been the case, but as the age of the average marriage increases the age of the male increases too, as does his discernment. Even Mr D’Arcy does not marry the village Cowherd or one of the Maids.

    These are merely my tentative ideas.

  74. The problem is a bidding war or credentialism perhaps. Women have to try harder and harder to prove their intelligence. There was a time when a smart girl might go nursing, snag her doctor, get going on the bubs, and probably end up helping run his practice.

    With doctors marrying doctors, I foresee excellent medical marital repartee while waiting in fertility clinics.

  75. Joe Sheehy says:

    “I realise this contradicts the idea in the man-o-sphere that beauty is the only thing that matters. It clearly is not.”

    Of course it is not, is that really an idea in the manosphere, that only beauty matters? Isn’t the whole point of this blog that things like chastity, and the inclination to motherhood, and faithfulness, and all character traits that make companionship worthwhile are critically important to be cultivated, rather than vitiated by exposure to corrupt society and unrestrained carnality? Women in the past didn’t need to mimic male pursuits to demonstrate intelligence and culture. There’s no need for higher education for a woman to prove she is charming and intelligent and a very good candidate to be a mother.

    I think it will be less common for male doctors to marry women doctors. Men are starting to wake up to the realities of the marriage market-place. A male doctor is making a poor choice marrying another doctor, generally speaking.

  76. deti says:

    “The most common mistake women are making today is wasting their youth and chastity pursuing everything but marriage, and then going on a desperate husband hunt in their late 20s to mid 30s. *** there is reason to believe that this approach will only become more difficult as more and more women attempt it. The problem women who try this method and fail experience is once they find out it isn’t the right path for them they are already locked in.”

    This nugget is important, I think. I know it’s not much consolation to young men living in sexual desolation, but:

    Time is on your side.

    Time is NOT on women’s side.

    Men will get better, more attractive and have more to bargain with as they get older. They tend to have more confidence and swagger, and they have more money. This is important since I think women’s main attractiion triggers for husband material are swagger and wallet

    But women are at their peak attractiveness at late teens/early 20s. That’s the time to find a husband. And the reason it is much harder for a woman to find a husband at age 30 is because she is not as attractive. As others set out above, by the time she is 30 or even late 20s, she usually has declining looks, increasing weight, declining fertility, a few failed relationships and a partner count at around 2, or 5, or so.

    This is why women should look for husbands in earnest (i.e. seriously and with purpose), and they should do so early.

  77. freemoofindoctrination says:

    ive just come out of an LTR with a 29 year old woman, im 27, and she seems to think she has a couple of years left in her yet before she settles down. oh dear. A husband isnt just going to parachute into her life when she decides to settle down. She finished it saying “im just not happy” and ” i just want to travel again” meaning ” i love douchebags on tour”. Im 6’2 200 lbs above average looks, degree educated from a top university, ive always looked after myself physically , ive been a game advocate for four years. I operate to the best of my ability and have always been continiously improving myself.

  78. freemeofindoctrination says:

    @ deti
    a woman in her late twenties with a partner count of 2 or 5, sorry but you completely outside the realm of reality with that, of the so called “good girls ” i know they have partner counts of minimum 9/10/11 at the age of 28/29/30.
    The modern SMP is no laughing matter there simply are no marriagable women out there.When youve done the circut,clubs house parties that ideological utopianist ideal isnt long being obilerated. The risk of marrying a woman with a partner count in excess of 10 is just too risky given the construction of the social contract and biases of family law system.

  79. Ten cocks before you. Charming.

  80. freemeofindoctrination says:

    It’s the ugly truth of the modern SMP like it or like it not, one must be vary game aware to screen for partner counts in an covert manner as overtly just wont cut it.

  81. deti says:

    Freeme:

    with my estimate of 2 or 5: I was trying to be kind and give the benefit of the doubt. Believe you me, I am fully aware of just how slutty some women can be.

  82. freemeofindoctrination says:

    @deti
    I wish i could give the benfit of the doubt, but when you experience it first hand its hard to overcome the cyniscism. My moral compass is turning and not in a good way.

  83. deti says:

    And keep in mind: that partner count of 10 is what she’ll admit to.

  84. freemeofindoctrination says:

    @deti
    Em had’nt factored that in when runnning the numbers, probably 25% as contingency to get a better picture

  85. Brendan says:

    I think Opus is right in that the very high end men are looking, these days, for higher end women as well when it comes to marriage (not pre-marital or extra-marital sex-based relations). It’s in part a class issue, and in part a fitness issue, and in part an expectations issue. Among the married male lawyers I know between 30 and 50 here in the Washington DC area, I don’t know a single one who is married to a secretary-type wife. Assortative mating is the rule,and exceptions to it are, well, quite exceptional — keeping in mind that Washington is the kind of town where the second question upon meeting someone after their name is “soooooo … what do you do?. Status is key.

    Re: partner counts. It varies a lot among women. There are plenty of women who are in their late 20s who don’t have 8-10 partners. They tend to be the plainer, less outgoing girls who don’t go out a lot, don’t go to clubs/parties/bars, and tend to not be in situations where they are meeting men for sex, or even, in many cases, having a boyfriend. I knew quite a few of such women when I was a young lawyer — young women lawyers who were on the plain side, not outgoing, and so on, and weren’t racking up partner counts. But they were plain, mind you — average or somewhat below average looking and not really “trying” to look better (i.e., not great clothing selection, poor or no makeup application, not much attention paid to hairstyle and so on). These girls tend to get overlooked in terms of discussions about partner count, I think, because they’re not the girls we’re generally attracted to, so we don’t really care what their partner count is — i.e., “they don’t count”. They’re out there, but because they aren’t the ones we’re generally interested in, they don’t really count when it comes to the partner count issue.

  86. Looking Glass says:

    @freemoofindoctrination:

    Had roughly the same experience, actually. Though we were already engaged at that point. I wish I could remember the words exactly, it was really quiet weird. Though for that relationship, she basically just stopped keeping in contact (lived a little apart) then “downscaled” the relationship. Was kind of an interesting process, in hindsight. I guess her method was the only way she could back out of the relationship without any risk I’d talk about her history with others, safe bet in that regard, as I hold no animosity to her. Some pity, but no animosity. [Also, don't mistake the point. Her breaking the engagement was one of the top 3 things that's happened in my life, but for an odd set of reasons. It put me in a different place at the right time.]

    One wacky side point: I’ve seen this enough, now, around these parts to wonder something. Do women just not find a man’s history at all relevant or actually important? Past actions are the single biggest indicator of future actions, so it’s really damn important to know about someone you’re in a relationship with. Yet, for a large chunk of women, a man’s past doesn’t seem to matter at all. I could see why they wouldn’t from a “it breaks the illusion” point, but, on the whole, its really quite stupid.

    @Opus:

    On Doctors marrying other Doctors, for the male doctor I think it’s both class and similar backgrounds. Remember, they’ve spent at least 9 years with perspective female doctors. They’re simply more comfortable with the type. Plus, theoretically, a female doctor should be a better wife prospect. But, eh, that isn’t as true as most would think. A married doctor pair can also talk to each other about the “work” problems in a way others just can’t. That’s a point to probably not be underestimated.

  87. Lana says:

    I was never attracted to older men. Even in my mid-twenties, I was attracted to men who were within 3 years older or younger than me. One guy I crushed on was 5 years older than me which seemed like quite a gap. I’m not saying I couldn’t have been attracted to someone 10 years older than me (can’t imagine a wider gap than that), but it didn’t tend to happen. Perhaps I didn’t have much chance to meet older men and that was part of it. We tend to be in college/church groups, etc. with people around our own age.

  88. Dalrock says:

    This process might not be adapted to true UMC women. Brendan has much more knowledge and experience there. If UMC men insist on marrying older women who are established in high end careers then they are of course the ones driving demand. With that I think they are being unrealistic if they don’t expect her to have a sexual history. This still does pose some risk for the UMC woman though, because if the process doesn’t work as expected she still can’t go back and do it over.

    For the larger middle class I think the association of intelligence with credentials is a mistake. My wife was in her first semester of college when I met her (I was a 5th year senior). Most women (even college grads) drove me nuts because they were terribly slow and dull. This wasn’t the case with my wife. I’ve never had a problem holding fascinating conversations with her even when she was 18 (told me she was 19) and fresh out of High School. She did get a degree, but that isn’t what makes her interesting. She has a larger knowledge base now and that is a good thing, but intelligence is something else entirely. My advice would be don’t marry a degree, marry a sharp mind. Smart people naturally want to acquire knowledge. Now with the internet this is something you couldn’t stop if you wanted to.

    As I think Opus said you can pretty easily spot intelligence in the eyes and voice. It also correlates with beauty, contrary to popular misconception. You can also get a good sense from who her parents are. My FIL is a STEM PHD, and her mother is extremely sharp as well.

  89. bskillet81 says:

    One wacky side point: I’ve seen this enough, now, around these parts to wonder something. Do women just not find a man’s history at all relevant or actually important? Past actions are the single biggest indicator of future actions, so it’s really damn important to know about someone you’re in a relationship with.

    If you are talking to a Churchian woman, yes. She doesn’t want a guy who has been divorced, even if the divorce was the fault of the cheating ex-wife. She is free to have 10+ unmarried sexual partners, but if the guy has had a single sexual partner who happened to be his ex-wife, that automatically disqualifies him. Churchian women believe that, no matter what they do to destroy their own marriage value, God will give them a perfect man who has never been married, makes loads of cash, drives a fancy car, looks like Tom Brady, has no personality flaws or imperfections, and wants to give his wife a Disney Princess existence of ease and total comfort and perpetual bliss.

    This man doesn’t exist, and on top of that, if he does, you’re not going to get him to wife you up when you’re both 35: He can do a lot better.

  90. Opus says:

    O/T

    I believe I have just squared the circle.

    Dalrock is always saying that serial monogamy is the preferred female method of promiscuity. I disagreed, – as I know women with partner counts in three figures – until, just now, looking at an old essay by Susan Walsh where she observes – I think correctly – that whether in an LTR or casual hook-up, the woman wants the same type of relationship (romance moonlight etc). Men, however, she observes want very different types of relationship and women from LTRs and causal sex (Chaste women to marry; sluts for sex). From a woman’s point of view, a woman either dismisses what happened as of no importance (hence the absurd and all too common false allegations) or it does matter, in which case even the most casual of sex is a relationship where she expects further commitment from the reluctant male. In other words women are always seeking male investment in them as marriage material – even when they are acting as Sluts. Men however are always going to separate women into two categories: Nice Girls and Sluts. As Walsh observes the roots of Jealousy seem to be a reaction by men to Cuckoldry.

  91. freemeofindoctrination says:

    @ looking glass

    Her breaking the engagement was one of the top 3 things that’s happened in my life, but for an odd set of reasons.
    Sometimes these life events are a blessing in disguise.

    Do women just not find a man’s history at all relevant or actually important?
    Preselection gives the hamster food,

    Past actions are the single biggest indicator of future actions, so it’s really damn important to know about someone you’re in a relationship with.
    Some women are extremely good at playing the “good girl” when the time suits them, any suggestions on how to filter this out?

  92. imnobody says:

    The thing about young women creeping when old men are interested in them is learned culturally and a product of feminism. I am an expat and a 42 y.o. For me to have 27 y.o girls as a gfs is culturally considered normal and everybody assumes that husbands should be older than wives . My current gf is 30 y.o (she looks younger) and I think “Maybe she is too old for me”, LOL.

  93. Anonymous Reader says:

    Some women are extremely good at playing the “good girl” when the time suits them, any suggestions on how to filter this out?

    Time. I suspect that the old standard of 1 year engagement before getting married had a couple of purposes: to prove that the wedding wasn’t a “shotgun wedding”, and to give enough time to flush out fakes. It would be very unlikely that a player/cad/PUA would invest a year in a single, solitary, woman. It would also be unlikely for an un-reformed slut to go a full year without scratching her itch, or otherwise revealing her true nature.

    Of course a long engagement is no guarantee against future divorce theft, but it should provide time to look for the possible clues, such as entitled-princess “it’s all about my haaapiness” syndrome.

  94. Looking Glass says:

    @bskillet81:

    It’s a trend I’ve noticed in talking with people, really. Finding a woman that knows most of her man’s (married or not) history is pretty rare. I come from a family with a heavy storytelling tradition, so that’s part of it on my end, but you really don’t understand someone if you don’t know at least their basic history. If you’re going to be with this person a while, it’s kind of important. I’ve seen it more outside of Church settings, really.

    @freemeofindoctrination:

    Basic deductive reasoning skills do most of the work. You need to ask for a number directly, full details, then test the rest of her trustworthiness. Further, there’s 0 problems wrong (if you’re serious about a relationship with the woman) of asking for names of previous boyfriends. People with nothing to hide will give up the information. Then it’s a matter of subtlety checking other details. “Trust but Verify”, words to live by when dealing with people you want to deal with again.

    You can also check details with some of her friends, but in a completely round-about way. You’re always looking for the “gaps”, as they tell you just as much as actual information. (Remember, her friends will normally cover for her, so you need double layered questions.) But don’t bother with this type of work unless you’re serious about the woman. Most of them aren’t worth that much effort, frankly. But if you think one might work, you’ve got to treat it like a contract (which is what we’ve made marriage). You need all of the details. All of them.

  95. Brendan says:

    This process might not be adapted to true UMC women. Brendan has much more knowledge and experience there. If UMC men insist on marrying older women who are established in high end careers then they are of course the ones driving demand. With that I think they are being unrealistic if they don’t expect her to have a sexual history. This still does pose some risk for the UMC woman though, because if the process doesn’t work as expected she still can’t go back and do it over.

    I think the main issue for the “professional/degreed” UMCs is the numbers game. There are just going to be flat-out substantially fewer such UMC men than UMC women in the near future due to the very lopsided matriculation and graduation rates. It’s true that this discrepancy tapers at the higher end (i.e., the proportions of men at elite institutions and with elite higher degrees is much higher than it is overall, so the ratio isn’t nearly as skewed as it is overall), but I think the “shortage” of equally professional/degreed men is already being felt by UMC women, and it will be felt more sharply in the future. This is where the hysteria is coming from as well – most of the chattering class type writers and journalists are themselves in the UMC, and so they’re reporting on, and writing about, trends they see in their own circles and demographic as much as anything else. That numbers game will be the big challenge for these “high end” women (i.e., lawyers, doctors, PHDs, business execs), and that’s where the anxiety level is rising — rightly, I think, because the ability of these women to mate assortatively is going to be decreasing in the generation or two just coming into that age group. Due to the tapering, it will be a gradual thing rather than sudden one, but it’s already being felt and it will only worsen.

    For the broader middle class, I don’t think that the educational disparity is really as much of an issue. You will see (as we do today) women with BAs in whatever who are cube dwellers marrying guys in the trades, or nurses marrying cops or tradesmen or what have you. It isn’t really a big deal, and I don’t think it will be in the years ahead, either. These folks don’t generally seek out very high credentialed partners in an assortative way like the UMC is doing currently, because they themselves are not really in that demographic. And I don’t think there’s much hysteria in this demographic, either. Think MIddle America, middle class, average as pie, non-coastal-blue-city type scenario — there isn’t hysteria about male graduation rates here, because people are still getting married, and credentials aren’t being used as an assortative partner selection factor.

  96. GKChesterton says:

    If I may, while I like the advice in general, I think it fails to recognize that it assumes a fairly modern view of marriage. Most women of the correct age will not be able to make these decisions because the risk taking portion of their brain is not yet developed. That is, it assumes the women and not the adults around her have the primary voice in mate selection. I think that’s a very, very, very bad idea.

    I would also hazzard to say that they should not be afraid of children. One of the things my largely Catholic (even though I am Orthodox) view of marriage has taught me is that women are probably overall happier with 4+ children running about. Not 4- but 4+. Hormonally they will be more balanced overtime because their bodies are functioning towards the biological goal for which they were built. We have to remember that many women have been trained to be outright fearful of children. My wife grew up not knowing how to _hold_ a child.

    As an aside I’ve become more appreciative as I age of the OT laws regarding female/male relations. There may be something to be said for completely separating men and women for roughly two weeks out of every lunar cycle. There also may be something said for ritual impurity reminding women that they have a built in fallen nature (something that I think good men have an easier time internalizing than good women).

  97. Anonymous Reader says:

    johnnycomelately said way up at the top of the comment stream:
    Good advice but women will opine, “you cannot plan on who you will fall in love with, it just happens.”

    That is very likely a true statement for many, if not most, women. All the more reason for them to have a care about the men they are around. Time for another analogy.

    When I go fishing, I can’t plan on catching a particular, individual, fish. However, if I want to catch a tasty trout, I don’t go dropping my lure into a tropical river. If I want to catch bass, I don’t cast into a snow fed mountain lake. The wise, prudent fisherman knows where to look for the fish in question, and will even go so far as to study the fauna of that area when thinking about lures to catch fish with – what does the bass eat? What does the trout pop out of the water to snag?

    And one more thing. I never, ever, go fishing in a septic tank…

  98. Dalrock says:

    The only thing I wonder about Brendan is how we are each defining middle class vs UMC. My family is arguably right in the middle. My sister was engaged in college and married her husband before he went to med school (she moved with him and worked to help pay the bills). Now he is head of surgery in a hospital in Southern California (they both went to college in the same basic area). So it isn’t just flyover country. In another thread on the same basic topic you brought up men going for partnerships in big law. I think there is a dividing line where status is extremely important. Maybe it is upper-upper middle class. You also mention DC, and that professional status is extremely important there. There is also a big difference between an MD marrying the local hot nurse, and him marrying a woman he met while an undergrad. I think the model I’m proposing should work for all but the top status seeking UMC men, but maybe this has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.

  99. goodfoot says:

    “And one more thing. I never, ever, go fishing in a septic tank…”

    Haha, good one!

  100. Firepower says:

    How young should a woman marry?

    MAY NOT be as important as “how old should she be when divorced”
    or, if at all.

  101. Dalrock says:

    @GKC

    If I may, while I like the advice in general, I think it fails to recognize that it assumes a fairly modern view of marriage.

    Interesting. This is the criticism I was least expecting. It is a welcome surprise.

    I think there is room to tune the basic proposal to suit your own tastes, and input from parents would seem like a very wise thing. However, I do feel strongly that the woman herself needs to make the choice and feel 100% ownership for it. She needs to not have a built in excuse to not keep her vow. If at 18 she feels she isn’t mature enough to start the process, my advice would be not to worry and simply focus on growing up enough to do so. The key thing here is if she isn’t mature enough to evaluate men, she needs to not be evaluating men. No dating, boyfriends, etc. We’ve discussed the problem of the carousel changing a woman’s attraction pattern for the worse, and this probably applies to the unicorn carousel to a large degree as well.

  102. freemeofindoctrination says:

    @dalrock
    “The key thing here is if she isn’t mature enough to evaluate men, she needs to not be evaluating men. No dating, boyfriends, etc.”
    this is esentially plato’s ideological utopianism, wont happen in our current society, maybe if we had a model of moral capitalism, with more stringent social programming it might occur, but the cynic in me see this only as posh academic window dressing for something that just wont ever materialise, its a bit like pareto efficiency and the equal dispersion of equity as much as we aspire to this ideal it seem a bit out of reach.
    In ireland the church once governed with the invisible hand and governed society at large, you could possibly of had this then say in the 90’s but not in the current system, if women did that demad would inelastic, as this is no longer the case the re-programming of the system combined with the celtic tiger cubs has spawned a different generation of entitled brats. Doesnt matter which demographic/variables you target here the story rings through the same. Cultural differences aside ireland is roughly 6-8 years behind in the implosion,

  103. Brendan says:

    The only thing I wonder about Brendan is how we are each defining middle class vs UMC. My family is arguably right in the middle. My sister was engaged in college and married her husband before he went to med school (she moved with him and worked to help pay the bills). Now he is head of surgery in a hospital in Southern California (they both went to college in the same basic area). So it isn’t just flyover country. In another thread on the same basic topic you brought up men going for partnerships in big law. I think there is a dividing line where status is extremely important. Maybe it is upper-upper middle class. You also mention DC, and that professional status is extremely important there. There is also a big difference between an MD marrying the local hot nurse, and him marrying a woman he met while an undergrad. I think the model I’m proposing should work for all but the top status seeking UMC men, but maybe this has changed dramatically in the last 20 years.

    It probably also varies quite a bit by location, in terms of the importance of the professional status of one’s wife for one’s own social status. Washington is probably the level worst in this respect in the entire country, due to the nature of the area being filled with professionals (not much in the way of non-white-collar here) and very ambitious, overeducated men and women. Manhattan is similar as well in this respect, but the rest of NYC (in cultural and class terms) is not. Other large cities will have different status markers. Miami, for example, has rather different status markers with respect to a guy’s wife (hugely more physical than DC or Manhattan), and I think Southern California does as well.

    The key is what counts as a status marker for the guy, in terms of his wife. Here in DC there are quite a few SAHMs married to high-driving lawyers and so on, but when Wanda Wife is introduced at the cocktail party and the “what do you do?” question is asked, it’s almost always pointed out simultaneously with the SAM business that Wanda was, of course, doing X before she decided she wanted to spend more time with the kids (where X= high prestige career position). There are exceptions, but they’re exceptional. And, again, the key is what is the locally important status marker. There are undoubtedly regional differences, and even differences between cities to some degree (although I do think in this regard, DC, Manhattan and the upper tier in Boston are all roughly similar, but rather different than, say Miami or LA).

    [D: Makes sense. Thanks.]

  104. an observer says:

    Am currently watching an interesting test case. Sometimes, it may not matter how young the women are if they are not capable of separating from family and demonstrating loyalty to the new husband.

    He: high 20s partner count before marriage, persuasive, charming, now married with two children. Well paying job, nice house, still moderately handsome and good provider.

    Her: much younger, zero partner count before marriage, still very immature and naive, but doe retains her looks after two bubs. Often very argumentative with hubby but deferential to her family’s wishes (ie siblings, parents). Lives very close to them, visits several times a week, on the phone to them every day.

    He used to be much more game oriented than he is now. He seems to be regressuing to beta schlubb. Evidence? They are moving to a bigger house so that her parents can live in one section, and presumably ‘help out’.

    Kids are normal, not special needs or anything.

    His reaction? Happy wife, happy life, suggesting perhaps she’s not always happy.

    She has only just turned 30 but looks younger, remember.

    I give him 18 months or less. . .

  105. an observer says:

    Brendan,

    Your observations concur with other material read recently. Apparently it is perfectly acceptable in some umc circles to be a sahm, provided the requisite career was had beforehand. It is a sop to the careerism of the feminists, suggesting that the woman is perfectly capable of mixing it up with boys (see that hamster run!), but of course she’s doing the stay at home, ‘for the children, of course.’

    The underlying statement here is that careers are more highly valued, but the children (and nanny, pool cleaner, and dog washer) must come first.

    Extra points awarded for volunteer work. Pilates compulsory.

  106. Joe Sheehy says:

    “Most women of the correct age will not be able to make these decisions because the risk taking portion of their brain is not yet developed. ”

    That’s a very silly idea. This idea that women are becoming ever more mentally mature. Less capable of forming a life-long pair-bond? Yes.

  107. an observer says:

    Joe

    I have seen this sort of faulty reasoning elsewhere. Currently it is being used to try and extend the period of forced dependance by raising the driving age, saying that risk assessment is not fully deveoped until the early to mid twenties!

    As often happens, there is a logical failure here.

    I would argue that cognitive deficits are to be expected if teenagers are kept in detention six hours a say, forced to learn useless facts, and then shoved into lengthy and unecessarily long training schemes post school (instead of getting a job, or starting a business). Of course they will demonstrate cognitive deficits.

    It is often said that people grow up and get married. But marriage – or any other significant, life altering change – produces growth as we learn and negotiate through new challenges.

    To insist otherwise is to endorse lifelong dependancy, which any fascist government can use to advantage.

  108. IRSA or the preachers wife. says:

    Dalrock,

    What a timely post, I just had this conversation with my daughter on Monday and my advice was very similar. Maybe it is kismet, zeitgeist or fate, whatever it is it is time to take this opportunity to start to reeducate. Perhaps you can write and accompanying piece for young men. Because in truth, if you can prove returning to a more traditional style of relationships is better than what feminism can offer women (choices and self-preservation) and make it a worthy endeavor for young men (a noble calling) then I believe most of the women who are orientated towards this type of relationship will follow. The only difference is that I added to our conversation is the need for her to continue her education as there is no guarantee that marriage is in God’s plan for her and that marriage is not easy and a long term relationship is not static it moves and grows as each person does. In the end it’s about the having and making the right choices.

    As for evaluating young men, I told her he future husband should meet the three P’s. The ability to Provide, the strength to Protect, and desire Possess her. Now if she could only find a man who qualified

  109. Joe Sheehy says:

    A lot of conservatives try to mix and match their “modern ideas” or rather popular prejudices with a gut instinct of what they think is traditional. Unfortunately that doesn’t work well at all. It leads to the absurdity of role-playing traditionalism. The principles are what matters. What are the principles of a traditional view of sexual morality? The purpose of sex is procreation. Illicit sexual behavior is evil because it is the motive for all sorts of evils and damages the body and soul. Women are less able to control their concupiscence than men, but the chastity and fidelity of women is more important for the family. Marriage is permanent so it must be based on the free choice of the young man and woman. Promiscuity damages the ability of women to pair bond. Since the purpose of marriage is procreation, the best age for marriage is when a woman can attract the best mate and is the most young and fertile. Therefore, it’s necessary for a young woman to marry a man she is attracted, after a short engagement, when she has the chance to make the best match, while she’s a virgin, to form a permanent bond for the benefit of the children she will bear at the best time for bearing children. All these things are simply common sense Christian principles, that most Christians today have a very hard time swallowing because the culture is simply incredibly hostile to these ideas. Yet it could be argued that these principles were basically being followed in the 1950s, and the departure from these principles has occurred since that time. Traditionalists are too bourgeois and too concerned about social approval and pleasing women to really be traditional. And the price that is going to be paid for it is the ruin of our civilization.

  110. van Rooinek says:

    I started dating with a marriage focus, at age 14…. the same age I decided I could never go all the way with a girl til I married her. Not a coincidence, either.

    Saving sex til marriage, changes EVERYTHING. Especially for men.

  111. the preachers wife. says:

    Mr. Joe Sheely,
    With the exception of women being less able to contain their concupiscence, I agree with your post.
    We live in a time when the impulse of self-gratification rules most peoples lives so I am sure concupiscence is an issue both sexes. I would also add the illicit sexual behavior also damages the community also.

  112. Joe Sheehy says:

    “Saving sex til marriage, changes EVERYTHING. Especially for men.”

    Yes, and so-called Christian parents, clergy and young “Christian” women have been stabbing such men in the back for a long time now. They’re words and their actions are totally inconsistent and then they have the gall to ask “where are all the real men.” They are literally destroying their posterity in order to maintain delusions about their little angels and to keep the collection plate money rolling in.

  113. Joe Sheehy says:

    And sexual immorality is not just the motive for much evil behavior but is also the cause of many evils, especially to children, (by abortion, illegitimacy, congenital disease, abuse by non-parents etc.)

  114. Dalrock says:

    @Preacher’s Wife

    What a timely post, I just had this conversation with my daughter on Monday and my advice was very similar. Maybe it is kismet, zeitgeist or fate, whatever it is it is time to take this opportunity to start to reeducate. Perhaps you can write and accompanying piece for young men. Because in truth, if you can prove returning to a more traditional style of relationships is better than what feminism can offer women (choices and self-preservation) and make it a worthy endeavor for young men (a noble calling) then I believe most of the women who are orientated towards this type of relationship will follow. The only difference is that I added to our conversation is the need for her to continue her education as there is no guarantee that marriage is in God’s plan for her and that marriage is not easy and a long term relationship is not static it moves and grows as each person does. In the end it’s about the having and making the right choices.

    Thank you. I wrote a piece almost two years back for men titled interviewing a prospective wife (part 1 and part 2). I would say that is pretty close to the male version of this one. For young men the challenge is different. I would say most young men who are fit for marriage (betas) *want* to marry fairly young (22-26). The SMP is not an exciting and enjoyable place for the average young man like it is for the average young woman. The problem is they rightly fear the incredibly biased family court and what it can do to them and their future children, and most women won’t be interested in them until they are in their late 20s or early 30s. The smart women are the 20 year olds (+ or -) who spot the promising 24 year old men and snap them up before their peers do. This is pretty much what I have in mind with this post, but of course you can’t force it, you can only start out from the beginning with a clear head and search in earnest.

    As for evaluating young men, I told her he future husband should meet the three P’s. The ability to Provide, the strength to Protect, and desire Possess her. Now if she could only find a man who qualified

    I received some very positive feedback on the closing paragraph of this post which you might find of interest. It specifically addresses how a woman can look for a young man with the potential she is looking for.

  115. Joe Sheehy says:

    “With the exception of women being less able to contain their concupiscence, I agree with your post.”

    Well, that’s the problem. The difference between the “red pill” view of Genesis (for example, Joseph resisting the wife of Potiphar) and St. Thomas Aquinas and the Victorian blue pill (or red, white and blue), “lie back and think of England view.”

    St Thomas Aquinas considers the question as to who does more wrong by committing adultery, a woman or a man. He concedes that women are more frail than men with regard to concupiscence, a woman who falls to a seducer, as far as simple fornication goes, is less guilty than the seducer. But as the woman can by her adultery introduce children not of the father, her crime is greater if she commits adultery in marriage. The Christian man who is determined to live a devout married life is more capable of controlling himself than the Christian woman, but the Christian woman’s fault is greater if she falls. That is the traditional view. It’s also the red pill view. And it’s born out in the statistics for divorce, illegitimacy, the support for abortion, the fact that young women today are more promiscuous than men the same age.

    http://www.newadvent.org/summa/5062.htm

    Young Christian men are being stabbed in the back by parents who deliberately delude themselves about their daughters until it’s too late, then capitulate to their LTR fornication as being “normal.” They capitulate to that, but they’re calling men interested in teenagers for marriage “creeps, perverts” etc. They’ve totally sold out Christian men to indulge sluttiness, because they’re too proud to face the truth about the human nature of their daughters. They receive too much social status for having accomplished daughters, lose little for having a loose but “discreet” daughter, and lose a great deal for having a daughter who marries young.

  116. the preachers wife. says:

    @Dalrock,
    Do you really believe it’s easier for young women? IDK. My daughter is having problems getting men her age to even approach her. They all seem really shy won’t even make eye contact, most of all they seem to be lacking in basic manners or the social graces (ironically talents women taught their children when they actually about the business of parenting.) Another issue for young women is meeting men, where? If you are under 21 your options are limited. If you are a decent intelligent girl being a regular bar fly is not a suitable option. Wouldn’t it be easier if there were some kind of sign they could give each other.

    Btw, I did exactly as you encourage and found my diamond in the rough in college, we’ve been married for 25 years. Off to investigate your other post.

  117. Johnycomelately says:

    Assortive mating patterns and the composition of the mating demographic might be driving the lopsided mating patterns. Assuming a woman takes Dalrock’s advice, how hard is it to find an appropriate partner?

    Given the flat bell curve of mens intelligence, that something like 5 million men are incarcerated (not counting how many were ever incarcerated), the number of homeless or destitute men, the number of men on drugs of dependency, the number of single men in the military overseas, number of men marrying foreign brides or expating, the number of men crushed by divorce courts and the higher number of men never married maybe the task is harder than we are giving it credit?

  118. the preachers wife. says:

    @ Joe Sheely,

    Does it make any difference to assign blame, if it is a matter of free will? On one hand you have a women who makes those irresponsible choices but also a man who choose to lead them in that direction (the game). Nobody’s innocent. I think St. Athanasius would have been more concern about the sin period. Free will is free will equally give to all, as is the fallen nature of humans as well, shifting blame is what took place in the garden.
    I don’t wish to argue theology with you, I am a orthodox protestant, I am assuming you are Catholic. Putting this in the context of the subject of young women finding husbands perhaps young men should strive to be what young women want and need.

    My husband says perhaps Adams greatest sin was that he let Eve talk him into something he shouldn’t. ;)

  119. Joe Sheehy says:

    “Does it make any difference to assign blame, if it is a matter of free will? On one hand you have a women who makes those irresponsible choices but also a man who choose to lead them in that direction (the game). Nobody’s innocent.”

    Yes, it does make a difference. Because there isn’t any hesitance to assign blame to cads, or men who aren’t cads, but who are treated with contempt and blamed for the sins of a few. It’s women who empower the cads. These days it’s ordinary women who do so. Stating that men are the reason women are behaving the way they are is a big part of the problem. The social problem. Yes, sin is more important, but the social problem is out of control because of the failure to assign blame. I don’t think we would have heard in the past that every time a woman fell it was the fault of some man. There are always going to be bad men. The question is whether or not Christian women really want Christian marriage these days. Because it seems like they don’t. And sad to say their parents are not helping them, more often than not.

  120. the preachers wife. says:

    @johnnycomelately

    Good point, it looks like our only option is arranged marriages at birth.

  121. GKChesterton says:

    @Joe,

    I’m not sure I’m arguing that they have no culpability, but the traditional model assumes serious involvement by the Clan in resolving marriage partners. This doesn’t mean no romance or a lack of personal responsibility. This is usually evidenced by female right of refusal:
    “We pick this one”
    “No”

    She get’s the veto and the veto reduces her overall scope of claiming outrage after the fact.

  122. an observer says:

    Preachers wife,

    Your daughter likely already has a selection bias, and approaches a limited group of men.

    Part of your job is to open her eyes to the broader possibilities of the mating pool. Not just the ones she happens to want to talk to on a given day.

    In addition, you paint with a very generalised brush. So ALL the males she talks to are social retards? Sure it isn’t something she’s doing?

    Honestly, it is not that hard. Women have the checklist and most men simply don’t pass muster. The single women i knew with lengthy checklists eventually threw them away and bought a cat. Because they eventually ran out of men to reject.

    It is not her options that are limited. It is her willingness to downsize her expectations and reign in her hypergamous nature that are limiting.

    Jcl,

    No. It is not a hard task. Every single women has options. Just that they talk to other women who convince them to spin the carousel just one more time.

    In quoting the various ways men leave the dating pool, you may be mistaking cause with effect. Mgtow can appear in numerous forms. Maybe not as incarceration, granted, but expatting, military service, etc, can all be expressions of various motivations.

    Recall that it is women who are the sexual gatekeepers. Hence, any alleged ‘man shortage’ has a number of possible translations.

    1. She cannot attract the attention of the alpha she lusts after
    2. She’s not hot enough to compete with the 8s and 9s
    3. She’s in her late twenties or early thirties and the options are looking increasingly unpromising.

    Women use the hamster to redefine reality to avoid enlightenment. Hence, we keep hearing about man shortages, when the reality is a simple collision of overvalued smv, unbridled hypergamy and and unrelenting aging processes.

  123. Joe Sheehy says:

    “I’m not sure I’m arguing that they have no culpability, but the traditional model assumes serious involvement by the Clan in resolving marriage partners. This doesn’t mean no romance or a lack of personal responsibility. This is usually evidenced by female right of refusal:
    “We pick this one”
    “No””

    There were plenty of arranged marriages, but there were plenty that were not. Free marriage choice was the practice of western Christendom. In England “forbidding the banns” came later. In Spain, it was a royal pragmatic in the 1770s that took marriage choice away from children under 25. But traditionally, young women were free to marry who they wanted, when they wanted, with or without a wedding ceremony, dowry, etc.

  124. the preachers wife. says:

    @Joe Sheely,

    No hesitence to assign blame? What about Kim Kardashian.
    Its women who impower cads? What are playas?
    The social problem is sin. There has always been sexual promiscuity, theft, drug addition, abuse, ignored poverty, gluttony, greed, murder.
    No in the past you didn’t hear it was the fault of some man. She was either sent away, committed, or shamed and because the negative focus (people do love to watch a good hanging) was on her while he was perhaps not forgiven but it was understood that he was only following his natural needs as a man. What a way to short change men.
    Yes there will always be bad people that’s why Christ had to die on the cross.

    Yes some women will want a Christian marriage if men can provide it. That means loving your wives as Christ loved the church. The problem is you can’t find good young men because parents have given them up to being raised by schools and tv, extra curricular activities while both parents are off meeting their selfish desires.

  125. Joe Sheehy says:

    “Its women who impower cads? What are playas?”

    Yes. Do you have a response to that? Women go for them rather than men who behave decently. That’s the reality today.

    “The social problem is sin. There has always been sexual promiscuity”

    Not like today ma’am. What’s changed more than ever before is the behavior of women.

    “She was either sent away, committed, or shamed and because the negative focus (people do love to watch a good hanging) was on her while he was perhaps not forgiven but it was understood that he was only following his natural needs as a man.”

    Lots of men paid dearly for their bad conduct with women. And many got away with it. But there will always be bad men. The problem today is there are very very few good women.

    “Yes some women will want a Christian marriage if men can provide it. ”

    Except even those raised to it are turning it down. You see men jilted at the last minute by girls who by all appearances would be very devout. Sorry, but it’s the behavior of women that’s changed. I’m afraid you missed the point of my post above. They call it the hamster wheel for a reason.

    Traditional marriage is going and it’s not going to be preserved unless fathers of girls figure out what’s going on and what’s at stake and quit cow-towing to their wives, because the hamster cannot be reasoned with.

  126. Anonymous Reader says:

    Preacher’s wife, boys are becoming afraid of girls. With good reason. I think James Taranto reads the androsphere – he’s the first mainstream writer to use the word “hypergamy” so far as I know.

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702304444604577341862453090268.html

  127. Dalrock says:

    @Preacher’s wife

    Yes some women will want a Christian marriage if men can provide it. That means loving your wives as Christ loved the church. The problem is you can’t find good young men because parents have given them up to being raised by schools and tv, extra curricular activities while both parents are off meeting their selfish desires.

    This isn’t what young Christian women are telling us. There is no shortage of Christian men who would be delighted to love them like Christ loved the church. What they are telling us is they aren’t attracted to the men who are interested in them. This problem strikes me as both real and coming from two sources. The first is that Christian young men are being taught to be doormats. Feminised Christianity is destroying these young men’s ability to think and act like men. They are being taught as one commenter said “girlyness is next to godlyness”. The other problem is Christian women expect men who are as attractive and exciting as the men their peers are lining up and taking a number to get pumped and dumped by. Part of these men’s attractiveness to women is the fact that other women are lining up for them.

    Do you really believe it’s easier for young women? IDK. My daughter is having problems getting men her age to even approach her. They all seem really shy won’t even make eye contact, most of all they seem to be lacking in basic manners or the social graces (ironically talents women taught their children when they actually about the business of parenting.) Another issue for young women is meeting men, where? If you are under 21 your options are limited. If you are a decent intelligent girl being a regular bar fly is not a suitable option. Wouldn’t it be easier if there were some kind of sign they could give each other.

    I don’t know which has it harder. What matters either way is that the challenges each face are different. Young women under 21 couldn’t throw a rock without hitting a nice guy who very likely would love to get engaged. Her peer group is loaded with men a few years older than her who are unmarried. The ratio of unmarried men to women is the best it will ever be for a woman at that age, and she isn’t dealing with the leftovers other women didn’t already pick. The problem is men who follow rules have listened to what we have beat into their heads; reject your toxic maleness. The only men (by and large) who haven’t fallen into this trap are the ones who don’t follow rules. In addition, because of the increasing age of marriage the kinds of men who would have received attention from young women are much less likely to now (see this post for an explanation). This means they lack the confidence and the preselection which in the past would have accompanied this kind of attention. Also, women have collectively abused the courtship process beyond belief. Men have no choice but to pull back how much of the searching process they are willing to foot. So a young woman has a very strong hand, but she needs to be willing to go against the grain of her peers (including other Christian young women) and find a way to meet men other than the ones who come up to her running smooth day game. It can be done, as a significant percentage of women who continue to marry young prove. It just won’t be as exciting as the more formal courtships of the past or the sex and the city model of slutting your way to Mr. Big.

  128. the preachers wife. says:

    Observer,
    I wouldn’t say she has a limited circle more like eclectic circles. She minoring in two foreign languages and belongs to those clubs, is a member of two honor societies, loves hockey, and plays a RPG. She is an introvert and that makes it hard for her to connect with others but once she does has a wicked sense of humor which according to my book about body language is not appealing in a woman.. I’m not blind to her faults but we have been working on her ability to see those young men around her who she might find appealing. But in the end like Dalrock said nature has to play the attraction trump card that makes a womans heart go pitter pat. It’s the same for men too. Her two definates on her checklist someone who can keep up with her mentally and someone who doesn’t turn into a insecure man child like her only boyfriend. He really did go quite beta after about a year and it turned her off. He kept it up even after she warned him.

    I didn’t mean to paint with a large brush, I know there are some nice guys out there remember my husband pastors a church. But the last time we took her back to school it was she that was holding the door open for men, the only man who held her door, her father.

  129. Joe Sheehy says:

    She had a boyfriend for a year? Wasn’t she considering marriage? After a year she thought he was too sensitive so she tired of him? There’s a definite problem there. A girl whose gone with a boy for a year and drops him for being too sensitive. She couldn’t figure that out sooner?

    Christian parents need to stop worrying about whether men hold the door for their daughters and start worrying about whether their daughters are fit to be Christian wives.

  130. Joe Sheehy says:

    Any man willing to wait a year without consummating the relationship and with no clear commitment to proceed towards marriage on the part of the girl is already beta-ized.

  131. an observer says:

    Pw,

    Spare us your embarassing ignorance. You would benefit from significant further reading. In the meantime. . .

    1. Women empower cads by preferring them. Any one of the date deprived men of your church currently in their twenties wil happily explain this to you. If you are prepared to listen.

    2. There are always consequences of promiscuity. Women were shamed because it reduced their value and increased the risk of the family having to raise a bastard child. Men were shamed too, but the consequences were different, because children born out of wedlock forewent inheritance rights and grew up as impoverished bastard children, the property of their mother.

    To assume that promiscuous men got off scott-free is simply wishful, solipististic misandry. But that’s ok, becuase you can always repent of that later, right. . . ?

    3. Promiscuous men in a patriarchy had their marriage posibilities filtered accordingly. There was no free lunch. Your attempt at shaming the imaginary advantage of men disgusts me.

    4. The majority of contemporary men are short changed when the majority of women spend their best years riding the alpha carousel (see point one, above). Men are short changed whentheir wives can initiate a divorce without cause, take the majority of the assets and put him on the hook for child support, leaving him destitute. Oh yes, that’s presumably not short changing them either?

    5. Women can say whatever they want in respect of wanting a christian marriage. So, many of them must be either deluded or incredibly stupid to pursue such a lofty goal through a series of monogamous (translation: sexual) relationships. What matters is not what they say, but what they do. And clearly, in pursuing careers, in pursuing the worship leader, in pursuing the cause of hedonism, they do not seek a husband. No matter what they might say to you on sundays.

    6. “you can’t find good men because” leaves the unspoken presumption that the single women of your church are paragons of virtue, but the men are basically untamed ruffians? Whereas the women turned out magnificently with little effort needed? I bet your church has kinship groups, young mum support groups, telephone help lines etc. And for the men you have an accountability ministry, a written charter of must-dos for them to try harder at, and lots of questions on how he is becoming a better man. Awesome. Good luck with that.

    However, must focus on the positive.

    Your doctrine of blatant gyno centrism will be helpful in supporting some much needed resilience when your precious daughter of the king tells you some guy took advantage of her unbridled hypergamy.

  132. the preachers wife. says:

    Joe Sheely,

    I think we should agree to disagree. It wouldn’t matter if all the girls in the world were perfect pure as the driven snow, if the boys are not raised right it doesn’t matter and vica versa. Its a mutual problem.
    And if you don’t believe promiscuity along with allllll the other sins I mentioned abounded you should take a look at some of my history books. I’ll quote a fairly famous modern theologian Will Whilimon, “The bible sounds like a party on west campus on a friday night.” (referring to the college campus he taught at.)

  133. Joe Sheehy says:

    “It wouldn’t matter if all the girls in the world were perfect pure as the driven snow,”

    Yes it would make a huge difference in the behavior of men. That you think it would “make no difference” is absurd. You’re rationalizing, and not doing a very good job.

    The problem in the churches is that the parents are willfully blind, absurdly proud of their daughters, and outrageous disrespectful to Christian men. They expect Christian men to take care of heir daughters when their done being used by godless men, and to be grateful for the opportunity. To be be grateful to making themselves hostage to loose “Christian” women under a regime of legislation that inflicts terrible penalties on husbands and fathers whose wives tire of them. To be grateful to be suckers. To be grateful to be treated as fools. They’re treating Christian men with abject contempt and disrespect, and then they wonder why their daughters claim not to be able to find respectable husbands?

    No self-respecting man Christian man with any sense would marry a loose woman except in extraordinary circumstances. So if you want Christian men to be available for young women, you’d better treat devout Christian men as the first string, not men waiting in line behind the cads. Otherwise you can kiss marriage as an institution good-bye.

  134. Joe Sheehy says:

    “And if you don’t believe promiscuity along with allllll the other sins I mentioned abounded you should take a look at some of my history books”

    That you want to pretend that things have always been this bad is simply insane. All the statistics prove otherwise. It shows somewhere deep down that you’re in denial and seem to be committed in some way to the changes that have happened in society with respect to the roles of the sexes.

  135. Dalrock says:

    @Preacher’s Wife

    Her two definates on her checklist someone who can keep up with her mentally and someone who doesn’t turn into a insecure man child like her only boyfriend.

    Her thought patterns are 100% feminist. She is looking for a man who can keep up with her, not a man she can submit to. I don’t know that you can change this, but it is worth pointing out.

  136. The word submit is a good one, but a little stark. It can be unpacked a bit. Phrases like the woman “going along with”, “complying”, “pulling together”, “following”, “listening to”, “adapting”, convey some of it. It is one of the features of femininity at its best.

  137. an observer says:

    Joe

    The daughter is a rare and precious snowflake, flighty from prodding her inner hamster, and wants to be pursued. It is up to the man to prove his worth, over and over again, until she tires of playing with him.

    Hope she likes cats. . .

  138. the preachers wife. says:

    Your right gentlemen, my daughter seems to be the only problem here. Yes the slut was considering marriage to him and had told me so. No, her father and I did not raise her properly. Of course nothing he could have done could have been any part of the problem he was a saint. What was I thinking!!! Oh just that I had found some people who I did agree with and that maybe it was possible to start coming up with ways of changing the current tide. But then again you did start acting like lesser alpha’s, getting defensive lashing out with your party lines and innuendos (yes they are valid complaints I never questioned that). Circle those wagons boys!
    Before you question my reading I’ve read this site and three others extensively for four days along with my husband who by the way has been approving everything I wrote before I sent it. I have a degree in political science with a minor in history. I am not as ignorant as you would like me to be. I at least read my history books. I don’t know what utopia you thought exsisted before the 50’s.
    You have to decide if your going to be part of the solution or part of the problem. Trying to cast blame is the problem, we don’t have any control over that, we do have control over what kind of role model we are going to be or in the case of this site, encourage.
    I leave you gentlemen I have to go to bed so I can gett up for work in the morning becuase our parishioners don’t understand how to tithe, but I’m sure all of you righteous men do.
    “Let those with out sin cast the first stone.”

    You know I really thought… never mind

    Thanks Dalrock for the oppirtunity I’ll ask my husband if he wishes to formulate a response to your reply. Good luck and God bless.

  139. TFH says:

    Her two definates on her checklist someone who can keep up with her mentally

    First of all, women don’t even know how to measure that. Very few women are intellectually impressive at all. Look across all the blogosphere, and check how many articles of quality are written by men vs. women.

    If a woman delusionally thinks there is a shortage of men who can keep up with her mediocre intellect, she should instead be thanking the cosmos that men aren’t applying the same standard to her.

  140. the preachers wife. says:

    BTW My husband and I have been in a taken in hand relationship for several years. I do submit but only to the one man I trust and who earned it.

  141. TFH says:

    the preacher’s wife said :

    My daughter is having problems getting men her age to even approach her.

    and also this :

    Her two definates on her checklist someone who can keep up with her mentally

    Preacher’s Wife :

    I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but while every mother thinks her daughter is a perfect 10, what you have said so far would lead me to believe that she might not be that attractive physically.

    I can guarantee 100% that there is no shortage of men who can ‘keep up with your daughter or any other woman intellectually’. Women just don’t enjoy intellectual subjects that much, and are thus desperate to classify shopping and celebrity gossip as intellectual subjects.

  142. an observer says:

    “nature has to play the attraction card. . . ”

    In other words, love is something she will magically fall into, and with one touch of his hand, she’ll just know. No exercise of will, logic, or rationality required. . .

    Suggesting she should be learning submission is just a plot of the evil patriarchy, depriving her from the entitlement of a satisfying career, a series of failed relationships and eventually leading to cat ownership.

    “make a woman’s heart go pitter pat. It’s the same for men too. . .”

    Expert testimony from a qualified witness. Obviously reliable. Men, you’re obviously doing it all wrong. . . Since we’re all the same really. . .

  143. Joe Sheehy says:

    First of all, no one called your daughter a slut.

    Secondly, the rates of divorce, bastardy, delayed marriage are etc, are reaching the point where marriage itself is dying.

    You haven’t answered any objections. You said something ridiculous, that if all women were pure it wouldn’t make any difference unless men were good too. That’s an incredibly silly thing to say. Are you going to concede it’s silly? Such a statement reveals that at some level you deny women have any responsibility at all. Because if their chastity makes no difference, then what’s the point?

    As for this idea that because there’s always been sin that things aren’t worse today, again, that’s ridiculous.

    Anyone who pretends that women are no more promiscuous than they were in the past is engaging in delusion. They weren’t, they couldn’t afford to behave the way they do now. And they married earlier.

    Now you talk about “casting blame” – you were the first one to shift blame back to men for the problem. We’re not to blame for “Christian” women acting the way they do today. If anyone is responsible it’s their parents. Christian parents should expect their daughter to be virgins when they’re given to their husbands. You know what the Old Law was about that. If their daughters aren’t virgins at marriage they should be grateful any Christian man would even consider marrying her. If they even care that their daughter’s husband is Christian. Sometimes I doubt it.

  144. Preacher’s Wife

    My wife and I are not in a Taken in Hand relationship. I just spank her sometimes.

    Perhaps your husband can spank you, once he has finished scraping all the bits of hamster off the walls.

  145. JustAnotherJen says:

    I never dated without the mindset of marriage, which means I dated at an older age (18) and fewer men, (3) before getting married at age 22. (My would-be husband was 24 at the time.)
    I found very few men could ‘keep up with me'; meaning that I wouldn’t budge when it came to pre-marital sex, and that if he wanted to date me, he had to talk to my father first.
    Old fashioned yes, but it really culled the chaff when it came to guys who weren’t in it for the long haul. If they had the balls to talk to my dad (and get him to like them) then maybe they were worth my time, and they knew they weren’t getting in my pants beforehand, so it made things easier.
    Still, even with all these hoops, I found an amazing Christian man and what attracted me the most to him was that he made /me/ jump through his hoops.
    Most men I knew would let me lead and dominate in the relationship, my husband was calm, not desperate, respectful and knew what he wanted and expected from a wife.
    He made me want to jump through his hoops, and I respected that and found it attractive.
    A man who actually acted like a man, what a concept.

  146. canecaldo says:

    When PW wrote this, I knew the jig was up:


    My husband says perhaps Adams greatest sin was that he let Eve talk him into something he shouldn’t. ;)

    Winky-winky! He’s so naughty. One time, he joked that the Bible is true. Ha!

    17And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake

    He’s such a rascal!

  147. GKChesterton says:

    @Joe,

    “She had a boyfriend for a year? Wasn’t she considering marriage? ”

    Indeed that seems like a very long time to discover this. A terribly long time. It sounds jerkish.

    @PW,
    “And if you don’t believe promiscuity along with allllll the other sins I mentioned abounded you should take a look at some of my history books. ”

    I spent some time as a pastor. As such I’m a bit confused as to whom you are accusing of not being aware of past sins. Joe hasn’t claimed that there weren’t any historical problems with the behavior of men and women.

    Also you’re later post is odd. No one called your daughter a slut. We hardly have enough information to go on. Everything that you wrote though makes the story sound odd. Dating a guy for a year and then essentially dumping him because he is too nice makes your daughter sound awful. That she has “two on her checklist” implies that they aren’t interested and that she valued them more than the boy friend in question.

  148. canecaldo says:

    How did I miss this?


    I leave you gentlemen I have to go to bed so I can gett up for work in the morning becuase our parishioners don’t understand how to tithe, but I’m sure all of you righteous men do.

    Haha! Yes, it’s our fault your husband’s parishioners don’t tithe. From her descriptions, I have to wonder: Who, exactly, is this man shepherding? His wife is a feminist, to whom he can only joke about Bible truths, and expects others to be whipped into respect by a worthless degree . His child is gaming nerd who thinks she is too good for all the men around her. (Did she mention any other children?) His congregation doesn’t support him. Quite the portrait of a leader!

  149. Ballista_GTOW says:

    I can’t add much more to what has been said in response to “Preacher’s Wife”, except that most of the problem is that blame and accountability have been shifted away from women in the churches to men. In other words, women hold all the rights and men hold all the responsibilities. This is nothing different to be expected – this is feminism showing itself in the churches. And PW, you are just as feminist as your daughter. If your “husband” is approving these posts, he is just as cowed into it as you are. (Glenn Stanton and this person would likely agree 100% with one another)

    That, coupled with the entitlement attitude that “Christian” women are raised with continually by their parents, their church, and their environment produces women that are haughty, arrogant, selfish, and prideful, along with all the baggage that comes from being promiscuous. In the end, they are wretched and unfit for marriage. “Christian” Women don’t recognize their brethren anyway and go after the unbelievers anyway, so Christian men usually don’t have the option until they reap the fruit of what they have sown. Is it any wonder that good Christian men use their discernment and avoid these women like the plague? Is it any more wonder that good men, both with Christ and without avoid the churches like the plague?

    In the end, the problem is this: “Christian” women are in open rebellion against God, favoring their feminist doctrine. And since they are the majority, their feminist doctrine rules the day among the supplicating lickspittles that run things. Every one does what is right in her own eyes and the system demands that she not be brought to account for her own sins. This is the full problem. Period. And the only answer is to put down the rebellion in fear of God. Unfortunately, people forget that judgment begins in the house of the Lord. It would be preferable to deal with this rebellion within men than to have God deal with it. Praise His long suffering that it hasn’t happened yet.

  150. imnobody says:

    Her two definates on her checklist someone who can keep up with her mentally

    TFH at 9:17 answered that. I couldn’t agree more with him.

    and someone who doesn’t turn into a insecure man child like her only boyfriend.

    In other words, an alpha. The kind of men Christian men are NOT raised to be (I was one of them.)

    They tell you to be good, to be kind, to repress your anger, to be polite and well-behaved and do everything they ask you to do. In other words, an insecure man child. The texts about Jesus cursing the Pharisees or getting mad with the traders of the Temple are conveniently forgotten.

    Meanwhile, Christian girls are slutting up … sorry, I mean, “are having relationships” with the bad boys. They say about you: “He is such a good guy and the girl she is going to land him would be a lucky girl” (and they think: “but I don’t want to be that girl!”).

    When you realize it, you have wasted two decades of your life being heartbroken, lonely and heartbroken only to follow advice of people who had good intentions but who they knew nothing about young Christian women.

    No worry: the wait has been worthwhile. After all these years of being alone, some Christian woman that looked down to you ten years before is suddenly interested about you, now that you have a good job and she has a belly and two kids that she needs to feed. This is the girl that God put you in your way so how can you refuse? This is your prize for playing “Christian marriage”.

    Some men agreed. But I had other plans.

  151. I like your three questions. Since women are attracted to men for more than good looks, do you think that if a woman finds a man she is ready to submit to as a wife and follow his leadership, then she would find him attractive enough to fall in love with?

    [D: Welcome. I think they are separate criteria. She may find a man who she would trust to lead her but isn't attracted to.]

  152. canecaldo, I don’t think she is much of a feminist if she is in a Taken in Hand relationship. That means she gets spanked by her husband regularly. Unless she is topping from the (red) bottom.

  153. canecaldo says:

    According to the website, there is no need for female submission. Anyway, Roissy would quickly note that feminism is no bar to such sexual games.

  154. Yes, you have a point, but being spanked bare-arsed over your husband’s lap is not exactly a feminist statement.

  155. an observer says:

    Ok, she dates a guy for a year then bins the relationship. Couple of thoughts.

    Just having a bf earns status points. But after a while, he fails the checklist. So she has to rationalise the breakup.

    ‘He couldn’t keep up with me,’ she thinks. Which misses the point entirely,of course. If she were looking for a husband, she would be following his leadership. Not to mention the statistical probability she’s likely not as smart as she thinks. That’s just the way the distribution curves, baby.

    Meanwhile, he is following the party line on relationships. ‘Women want nice, decent men who are interested in them, supportive, sensitive and receptive to their needs.’

    Which in this case are of course special, unique and a right royal pain to pander to.

    Maybe the guy is lucky to get away. Particularly if the mil calls her own daughter a slut. Even in jest.

  156. P Ray says:

    I wonder if her daughter finds the male youth ministry leader attractive?
    ‘Cause those guys have plenty of female attention, and it’s never “wrong”.
    But regular Joes trying for that are told “to get the attention of many women is WRONG! You must only be attractive to one woman”.
    And also “be grateful that ANY woman wants you. As a man, you are not supposed to question the girl that wants to be with you”.
    Which is why many men are giving society (and religious organisations) the finger. He is expected to tolerate all kinds of misbehaviour and disrespect, she is allowed to be intolerant of anything about him at all.
    Personally, I think it’s all a plan to maintain a pyramid: with many men as labourers working under the yoke of divorce theft, cuckoldry, STDs and false accusations

  157. canecaldo says:

    “Yes, you have a point, but being spanked bare-arsed over your husband’s lap is not exactly a feminist statement.

    Coherence is not the hallmark of feminism.

  158. Gee, you are an argumentative cuss, Cane. Like me.

    Am looking forward to your thoughts on Disco.

  159. Will says:

    “Personally, I think it’s all a plan to maintain a pyramid: with many men as labourers working under the yoke of divorce theft, cuckoldry, STDs and false accusations”

    Or in fear of all off the above. No doubt about it, Men are intentionally being kept down by unfair repressive laws and the feminist social milieu.

  160. Kyle In Japan says:

    In my experience, I tend to agree with the problem of the church raising men to be ‘nice guys.’ But although American church girls might be elitist, chubby (at best), and delusionally set on their 100-point ‘dream guy,’ I have to say that promiscuity is not a flaw I’ve honestly observed in them. It really does seem like most of the girls in my youth group growing up were chaste and just dated the upper-ranking church guys (sorry if you’re no good at sports, dudes, else you can’t join!) instead of the real dangerous types. At least as far as I saw.

    Some of the other posters’ evangelical megachurches must have been a little different from mine.

  161. FT says:

    Dalrock, your post has a lot of good points, but I know a lot of young women in their early 20s who would like to date and marry but can’t. They are nice girls with good morals from excellent families, but men their age don’t ask them out.

  162. lavazza1891 says:

    FT: But is waiting to be asked out setting marriage as a priority? She should identify a marriage minded man and take away as much as possible of his objections/reluctance/worry to ask her out.

  163. an observer says:

    FT

    Of course men their age have quit asking them out. They know the answer: no. Girls are like politicians: only lying when they’re mouths are open. Give up believing what girls say, what they do is the only reliable predictor of behaviour. Facts are that 80% of girls will only date about 20% of guys. The rest of them haven’t got a hope. Hence, any normal girl who can’t attract the attention of a hot enough guy for their liking will complain that no-one ever asks them out, and it’s so, like, unfair.

    Those dastardly men in the wrong, again!

    Your perspective of nice girls with good morals is badly in need of a system update. My perspective of good church girls was changed forever when I saw them aping secular behaviour. Like only dating the bad boys, having babies out of wedlock, divorcing husbands for no good reason, and so forth. Going to church was like a soap opera. Each week there was a new drama. Of course, the fallout wasn’t pretty, but men are disposable, right? There’s always another one, waiting in the wings we can shame into doing the right thing, maning up and marrying the sluts in waiting.

    Of course, in each instance there was probably a man who screwed up. Maybe they looked at porn too much. At least that’s what the pastor said.

  164. Paul says:

    On this whole idea of “but men their age don’t ask them out”. Let’s see, how young are they when they get taught, in school, about the facts of life? How young are they when the girls get taught to start chanting anti-rape and other slogans straight out of the department of wiminz’ studies? How young are they are they taught that any girl has any right to refuse anything at any time, be in control of just about anything and everything, and the boy has absolutely nothing to say about it, only acquiesce? I could go on, but you get the point. The answer, in the case of my two kids, is elementary school, grade 5, for the explicit stuff, but the anti-maleness starts from junior kindergarten; one day my then 4-year old son came home confused, because he’d made a gun out of lego blocks and his teacher had gotten angry, taken it apart and told him never to do that again. I told him well, if they don’t want you to do it at school, don’t, but do it as much as you want at home.

    You have symbolically and very purposefully castrated young boys since they were out of diapers, told them there every urge and instinct with regards to women was wrong, unnatural and unholy, while these special snowflake princesses get a complete pass and sooo much unearned self-esteem just because they have mystical, magical grrrrl power (I also have a daughter, and am very familiar with the negative consequences of this), and then wonder why they don’t act like a man ask your special snowflake princesses out. And of course she only notices the small number of boys she’s interested in, they’re the ones not asking her out, the vast majority of boys are just uninteresting and it would just be plain icky and even creepy if they asked her out or showed interest, why it would almost be harassment, and don’t think the boys aren’t very aware of what can happen if the girl they want to ask out feels that way and that it’d be their fault for their innate evil maleness, and the boys have had that drilled into their head (at school, by TV, by their church if they go, not to mention their moms and probably dads) since a young age. There are a pile of things way worse that can happen to a boy asking a girl out than her saying no, and the boys know that, too.

    So to all the ‘why won’t the boys ask me/my special snowflake out’ and ‘where are all the good men’ wiminz and white knight/mangina fathers, go (bleep) yourself with a chainsaw.

  165. bskillet81 says:

    Dalrock, your post has a lot of good points, but I know a lot of young women in their early 20s who would like to date and marry but can’t. They are nice girls with good morals from excellent families, but men their age don’t ask them out.

    Hahaha! Good one!

  166. bskillet81 says:

    @Paul

    And of course she only notices the small number of boys she’s interested in, they’re the ones not asking her out, the vast majority of boys are just uninteresting and it would just be plain icky and even creepy if they asked her out or showed interest, why it would almost be harassment

    Even in their late 20s or early 30s, a guy risks a lot of problems if he asks a girl from his social group out on a date. If she is uninterested, she will not merely say no (which isn’t that big a deal), but she will then tell the women in the social group how gross the guy is for asking her out and how creepy and awkward it was and so on. Then, the women will tell their boyfriends in the group, or otherwise tell guys in the group, and now the guy who asked the girl out is branded as some kind of sexual deviant or predator. All for just asking a girl out.

    This is what feminism has wrought in women. Most of them are heartless bitches, and guys know it. I suggest that if there really are good 20 something girls who want good “nice guys” to ask them out (about as likely as the existence of the Tooth Faerie, but I’ll play along), that such a girl should start by demonstrating some kind of interest in him. If he has reason to know she might be interested, this dramatically lowers the possible social risks to him.

  167. lavazza1891 says:

    Female yoga FB friends often post stupid articles written by other females on yoga and life.

    Can you spot which quote is from a female author and a male author? Both quotes cover the same topic, at least to an extent, and in some sense both authors want to convey the same message.

    “As pratyahara refines the practitioner goes from a mini experience of it in concentrated moments, such as in practice if practicing correctly, to a heightened awareness and mindfulness at all times throughout the day. In such a case the outer object is noticed, the sensation within is observed, the capacity to withdraw is present and integrity is preserved so to speak. Early on an effort to withdraw is required but over time there is an automatic internal centering due to prolonged practice that the possibility of distraction or temptation is almost minimal. The outer object has minimal pull on the senses or rather the energy being pulled through the sense organ. This does not mean you become boring but rather a champion over your desires and sensual pulls and can still enjoy the activity of the senses as need be in life. You eat chocolate, enjoy it. But are you pulled strongly to eat it every time you see it or think about it.”

    And

    “We’ve all heard the catchphrase of women still caught in ‘good girl’ mentality. And we also know that women dieting are most likely not having sex (at least, not the kind of sex that they want). And this doesn’t mean that a good woman is stuffing her face all the time and pigging out on Cheetos and bon-bons. But a good woman slows down and knows herself well enough to choose what is nourishing and relish every bite…whether it’s the grilled fish and asparagus, or the double chocolate chip cake. She eats life to feed her soul, not to numb the sensation.”

  168. P Ray says:

    @bskillet81:
    An excellent writeup of the “relational aggression” that girls practice against guys, tying in with your post:

    4 Years for Raping a Fictional Character
    by Cless Alvein on October 1, 2009
    [Plug: my blog is here.]

    Late October 2001: It was early in my freshman year that I noticed the change. Friends, especially female, began avoiding me. Certain people wouldn’t make eye contact with me. At first I thought I was imagining this, or that the rapidly chilling weather was souring peoples’ moods. Some people suddenly became aloof or flat-out refused to talk to me. I received a couple of threatening but vague emails. Through all of this, I had no idea what was going on, or why so many people I’d never even met hated me. I’d arrive at a party and my name would be shouted by someone I’d never met. It’s HIM! What was I famous for? Not until later would I find out.

    [D: Read the rest on the original Spearhead post.]

  169. lavazza1891 says:

    “This is what feminism has wrought in women. Most of them are heartless bitches, and guys know it. I suggest that if there really are good 20 something girls who want good “nice guys” to ask them out (about as likely as the existence of the Tooth Faerie, but I’ll play along), that such a girl should start by demonstrating some kind of interest in him. If he has reason to know she might be interested, this dramatically lowers the possible social risks to him.”

    Yeah. This is not rocket science and it is something a young woman setting marriage as a priority should have found out by herself. She should look for opportunities to let the man know that she is not like most other women, which is most perfectly displayed by risking other women’s negative feelings by critizising such women in their and the potential mate’s presence. Thinking that she is different without showing it to the man is not enough.

  170. P Ray says:

    @lavazza1891:
    “She should look for opportunities to let the man know that she is not like most other women, which is most perfectly displayed by risking other women’s negative feelings by critizising such women in their and the potential mate’s presence. ”
    MOST Girls/women will give up a man rather than lose their social clique.
    Which gets spun as “He was so controlling, and tried to get me to give up my friends”.

  171. bskillet81 says:

    She should look for opportunities to let the man know that she is not like most other women, which is most perfectly displayed by risking other women’s negative feelings by critizising such women in their and the potential mate’s presence.

    I wouldn’t even need her to criticize another female publicly. In fact, I find public criticism of anyone to be usually extremely unclassy: If you have a problem with someone, you take it up with that person privately. At this point in my life, I would say the sexiest thing a woman could do is to sound like she is a regular reader of Dalrock’s blog. This alone would move her from the “stay away” category–90% of all women–to the “possibly wife material” category.

  172. lavazza1891 says:

    P Ray: Which is kind of the idea of getting married and starting a family. It’s not the man and the children who have to fit in to accomodate to her clique of friends and her relation to it. I can understand the attitude if it relates to her father who will be giving her away, then the man shall prove himself worthy to the father, so that the father will trust him to give him his daughter. And the woman’s loyalty to her father is something that is of value to the potential husband. But loyalty to friends, and especially friends who are an obstruction to her finding a man, is not something a marriage minded woman is wise to show a potential husband. The opposite is true.

  173. Paul says:

    “At this point in my life, I would say the sexiest thing a woman could do is to sound like she is a regular reader of Dalrock’s blog.”

    Well, I have a woman who listens to me rant about the stuff discussed here, without criticizing. For that and many other reasons, I believe she is wife material. Of course, I had to look far and wide to find her, they are nowhere near as easy to find as some might pretend.

  174. lavazza1891 says:

    bskillet: You are probably right. I was just thinking of ways for clear ways to show that she is not like other women. Since I often hear women say things that a wise woman would object to it is quite safe to assume that their friends have not called them out for that privately either. A wise man will, among other things, judge a woman from the company she keeps.

  175. P Ray says:

    “A wise man will, among other things, judge a woman from the company she keeps.”
    Agree with this, have a true-story caveat:
    Nowadays the ones who go to church and help out at the old folks’ home …
    are the ones who also get drunk, go through a string of boyfriends and then proceed to tell a decent guy about her friend: “You are driving her away by being interested in her!”
    And having the friend say “You have to treat me as more than a human being.”

    Sorry to say, but many women ATTEND church.
    Doesn’t mean they’re pious.
    In the same way someone can stand in a parking spot.
    Doesn’t make them a car.

  176. bskillet81 says:

    “You have to treat me as more than a human being.”

    So true. She has been inculcated with since birth with the idea that she, as a woman, is a superhuman demigoddess.

  177. GKChesterton says:

    “Most of them are heartless bitches, and guys know it. I suggest that if there really are good 20 something girls who want good “nice guys” to ask them out (about as likely as the existence of the Tooth Faerie, but I’ll play along), that such a girl should start by demonstrating some kind of interest in him. ”

    Since there was agreement on this I’ll point out this is largely BS. Most women aren’t heartless bitches. This is the apex fallacy applied to women. Women are peer motivated so they can have a hard core set of heartless bitches that rapidly corrupt the whole bunch without some sort of social reset (see: Patriarchy).

    There are a lot of nice women. However they are drowning in a philosophy that accelerates their own negative biology. It would be something like a group of men dropped off on a planet with only hyper-attractive willing women. The majority of us would start failing.

  178. bskillet81 says:

    Women are peer motivated so they can have a hard core set of heartless bitches that rapidly corrupt the whole bunch without some sort of social reset (see: Patriarchy).

    To paraphrase Obi-wan Kenobi: “Who is more heartless, the heartless bitch, or the heartless bitch who follows her?”

  179. deti says:

    It’s really been fascinating to see the posts by Preacher’s Wife and FT. I don’t think these women are stupid or malicious. I think they are grossly ignorant and misinformed. Their comments show that they really don’t understand anything about the modern SMP or the MMP. Their view of the SMP is as it existed around 1955 with all the attendant controls, social conventions and legal restrictions. PW and FT do not understand hypergamy, the complete lack of restraint on hypergamy, game, the player-cad dynamic, the dark side of female attraction, sin nature, and the current divorce meat grinder industry.

    Consider this from FT: “I know a lot of young women in their early 20s who would like to date and marry but can’t. They are nice girls with good morals from excellent families, but men their age don’t ask them out.” This is simply ignorace, and a complete failure to understand how the SMP works. Men “their age” aren’t asking them out because as observer pointed out, the answers will be “no” and “you’re not serious” and “hahahahaha”, or they will get one date (that they paid for) and then hear LJBF. These men are gunshy and cower like dogs that have been beaten too many times. THese men in their early 20s have been shot down so many times they don’t need to get shot down more. The SMP for an early 20s man is terrible. People like FT do not understand this at all.

    People from evangelical or fundamentalist traditions live in bubbles. Their entire social and work lives are tied up in the church. The church is all they know, all they see, and all they care about. They believe they are different, loftier, higher. They don’t believe their children can fall prey to dark sexual sin. Everyone in church talks all the time about the darker aspects of male attraction. Entire libraries have been written by modern church leaders about male attraction, but almost nothing has been written about dark female attraction. FotF, Glenn Stanton, James Dobson, et al talk all the time about men, but nothing about women.

    Because it is rarely discussed, evangelicals/fundamentalists don’t understand the dark side of female sexual conduct and female attraction. Or if they do understand it and feel it, they vehemently deny it exists or insist that they have complete control over it. The church and most women are in complete ignorance and denial about their own sexual natures. Feminism obfuscates it completely so as to remove any blame or responsibility for bad outcomes upon women.

    The other thing going on here is egalitarianism and even insistence that men should pedestalize women. Note PW’s insistence on arguing that “well, yeah, the girls have their faults, but the boys aren’t nice and they aren’t asking out the girls! They aren’t holding open doors for my little princess! So it’s their fault too!” Again, ignorance and denial. PW’s little cupcake sees these nice boys. She just wants nothing to do with them. But PW wants to put all the blame on the boys, or at least make them share the blame. It’s really just thinly veiled man-up, shaming language.

    “You young men need to man up and start asking these girls out on dates!”
    “You young men need to man up and start taking your rejections like men!”
    “You young men need to man up and hold the door for my little princess!”

  180. slwerner says:

    the preachers wife – ”Your right gentlemen, my daughter seems to be the only problem here. Yes the slut was considering marriage to him and had told me so. No, her father and I did not raise her properly. Of course nothing he could have done could have been any part of the problem he was a saint. What was I thinking!!!”

    Yes, what were you thinking?

    Let me guess. You didn’t like the frank responses you got here, which dealt with young women in general as they are in today’s society. These were, primarily, responses not aimed directly at, but rather provided so that you might assess your own daughter against the descriptions of other, typical girls. Prior to you little melt-down, only Dalrock made the point that you daughter seemed to be following a feminist inspired script in supposedly looking for a guy who could “keep up with her”. Everyone else seems to have made more broad observation concerning young women collectively, and the lack of proper training most receive (including from churches).

    But, of course, these weren’t the sort of responses you were looking for. You probably wanted reassurance that your daughter wasn’t “the problem” and that you, your husband, and the church he pastors were doing everything right.

    So, getting only tough, frank responses, you became increasingly angry, until it finally over-whelmed you, and you launched into your little tirade (complete with the standard attempts to shame those who didn’t give you what you wanted).

    Sorry it we (collectively) don’t seem upset by you’re rant. It’s actually not all that unusual. Many women have ventured into the manosphere/androsphere, only to become frustrated when others didn’t cow-tow to their “vision” of how the ensuing conversation should go. Predictably, they either try to tell everyone else what to think, or become angry that others (en mass) don’t acquiesce to their line of thinking. And that’s where the angry and shaming rant’s and announced departures come in.

    the preachers wife – ”I’ll ask my husband if he wishes to formulate a response to your reply.”

    Which loosely translates to ”I find myself in over my head, unable to refute the things people are telling me that I don’t like to hear; so I’m sending my husband in to take up the fight where I left-off.”

    We seen this thing before as well. I guess we will all await your husbands thrashing of us for daring to make you unhappy?

  181. lavazza1891 says:

    P Ray: I am a yogi and I am often astounded by female practioners view on politics and moral. Apparantly you can practice a lot in a spiritual practice, but without sincerity and good judgment no transformation will happen.

  182. Paul says:

    “There are a pile of things way worse that can happen to a boy asking a girl out than her saying no, and the boys know that, too.”

    And I forgot to add that even she does say yes, he’s not exactly out of the woods. One failure to read her mind, make an advance she deems improper (or later regrets), or fails to make an advance (see previous example) she wants, and whammo bammo entire apparatuses of state can fall on his head. How many women are worth that risk?

  183. lavazza1891 says:

    “How many women are worth that risk?”

    All women, according to their friends and their mothers.

  184. deti says:

    slwerner:

    Good observations. First, one of the things that is so frustrating about all this is that many women come here and then take it all personally when they start losing the argument or when their preconceived notions are blown sky high. Everything is personal. Everything is a personal attack. Everything is an indictment of their personal beliefs, mores, ways of life, tenets, and principles. It’s not. All we’re saying is simply that PW’s and FT’s beliefs aren’t supported by the facts on the ground, that they don’t know the facts on the ground, and that maybe they should look at things differently.

    I really believe PW came here and was shocked to hear our viewpoints. She was genuinely surprised that a group of (mostly) Christian men could think and believe as we do. To her it is foreign, heathen, pagan, and an adoption of the “world” viewpoints. To people like PW, Christian men aren’t like that. Christian men are the pussified manginas who do what their wives say, attend the churches they say to attend, listen to men like Glenn Stanton and James Dobson, and get up in arms when wifey says “get up in arms”. Or they are rugged, “manly” men like Mark Driscoll or John Eldredge, but who never talk about or even acknowledge the dark side of female sexual attraction.

    PW was shocked to hear her little cupcake wants nothing to do with the wussies her husband’s church is probably creating. She genuinely gets blinkered when trying to figure out why her cupcake dumped a nice boy she dated for a year. (PW: It was because your daughter figured out he’s a wuss.) PW just cannot figure out why the men in her daughter’s age group don’t ask out the girls. (PW: It’s because these men have shot down so many times their hearts look like Swiss cheese.)

    PW and FT just don’t understand the current SMP and MMP. Perhaps this has helped her a little. I hope so. I really do.

  185. imnobody says:

    Many women have ventured into the manosphere/androsphere, only to become frustrated when others didn’t cow-tow to their “vision” of how the ensuing conversation should go. Predictably, they either try to tell everyone else what to think, or become angry that others (en mass) don’t acquiesce to their line of thinking. And that’s where the angry and shaming rant’s and announced departures come in.

    It has happened so many times that it could be established as a law of physics. The steps are as follows:

    1) Woman discovers a manosphere blog and reads some it.

    2) Woman is astonished about what she reads. She can’t believe that somebody is writing this. Everybody knows that women are blameless and men are the one to blame! They must be some unenlightened individuals that have not heard the truth.

    3) Woman wants to set the record straight. She thinks “I will tell the truth and everybody would
    agree” After all, she is a woman and nobody has ever dare to disagree with me so she has a distorted image of her intelligence.

    4) That’s why Woman is astonished that the blog’s readers disagree and, in addition, dare to give counter- arguments that she can’t dispute.

    5) Instead of admitting defeat or trying to learn, when Woman knows she is not going to get everybody agreeing with her, she leaves by using some shaming language (it is usually something along the lines of “I can’t waste my time with a bunch of bitter losers like you”).

    What PW behavior proves is what I have said once and again: conservative women are not our allies. So-con is another branch of the female pedestalization movement, the right branch of feminism.

  186. slwerner says:

    deti – “PW and FT just don’t understand the current SMP and MMP. Perhaps this has helped her a little. I hope so. I really do.”

    It’s hard to “unhear” the things that one didn’t want to hear – but become readily apparent, as they will now be noticed playing out in the world and people around them.

    People who wish to unhear Red Pill realities might retreat back into their comfortable echo-chambers, and loudly denounce those evil, un-Christian men who were spouting such heresy, and be reinforced by their like-minded friends. But, it will be much harder for them to not notice that those Red Pill realities are be evidenced by people all around them.

    In that regard, I think people like PW and FT are helped. They just didn’t want that “help”. They wanted pretty little lies. But, even if they dislike and even resent having been helped, the seeds are planted, and reality will have a way of nurturing the doubts that sprout from such seeds. Perhaps, in time, they will look back and realize that they can no longer deny inconvenient truths any longer. I know it took a fairly long time for me to finally get it.

  187. deti says:

    Maybe with some more education, women can learn what they used to know pre-SR.

  188. slwerner says:

    deti – ”Maybe with some more education, women can learn what they used to know pre-SR.”

    I can see it now – the preachers wife telling all her friends, ”don’t go over there, you could get … educated!”

    Personally, I hope she does send her husband over to tell us off. He’d probably be more receptive to those Red Pill truths, not unlike the way Mr Darwin ended up ceding a good many points while his intellectual coward of a wife ran away, and announced that she was “Escaping the Gravity Which Diminishes”. I actually go a real kick out her posting that title. She inadvertently confessed that she wished to escape reality (gravity being an example of inescapable reality, at least here on Earth).

  189. Retrenched says:

    @ Paul

    So true. Male sexuality has been shamed and demonized, with feminist educators and administrators calling guys “creeps”, “predators” and “potential rapists” if they [insert normal male behavior here]. So a lot of young guys grow up being ashamed of their sexuality, or even see it as something evil or potentially dangerous.

    Of course, when you demonize male sexuality this way, the only guys who are actually going to try to talk to girls in great numbers are the ones who don’t care whether they creep the girls out or not. Now who do you think that might be? (Hint: Not polite Christian boys.)

  190. TikkTok says:

    I’ll just throw this out there- my parents have been married 52 plus years to each other. :lol: We were raised that you go to college to get your MRS. You marry to have sex (and if you have hormones and want to do more than kiss, it must be love and you must get married) and children. As a mother, you stay home with your children until while they are young.

    Hunny’s parents have been married for 49 years. His parents raised him to be aware of girls who were only after money and to absolutely NOT get someone accidentally pregnant. When we moved away to be together, we lived with them for 6 months.

    The problem I ran into at college was finding a man who 1) wanted to get married (plenty wanted to have sex) 2) was willing to be sole provider and 3) interested in having children. And these were men that were older than I by a range of 3 to 7 years.

    In the end, Hunny and I moved in together when I was 20; he was 23 and we married 2 years later. That was 20 years ago, and we didn’t meet in college.

    What’s interesting about the whole thing is that we often joke that he re-raised me, but that actually is the reality. He had to totally re-program the way I viewed most everything. Early on, we agreed we’d have kids and I would stay home with them. The delay in getting married was that he knew I would never plan to have a child without being married, and he knew that once we got married, I would want to start having kids. He, on the other hand, wasn’t ready to give up being a couple for a while longer, so we took a different route.

    The way we kids were raised worked by in large for most of the 8 of us kids (my older sister and I being the only two adopted), but for the two of us that weren’t biological- well, we did things a different way (me being living with someone without being married which resulted in being shunned by the family, more or less, until we got married).

    The older sister (43) has been divorced 3 times; has 2 kids by hubby #3 (got preggers while still married to hubby #2) to whom she was unhappily married for 16 years because of the pregnancy. She’s now with another man (who I grew up with and actually is a really great guy), living together for over a year and I have no idea if they are going to get married or not. He is my age (40 ish) and has never been married and has no children.

    Only the youngest 2 boys remain unmarried; one is 29; the other 33 (was married for a year almost 10 years ago). Oldest brother (48) and his wife (44) have been married for 19 years; she is 4 years younger. Next brother (a pastor, 42) and his wife have been married 18 years; she is a year older. Younger sister (37) and her slightly older dh have been married for almost 10; youngest sister and her dh (who is 2 years younger) have also been married for 10 years.

    I think the list is a really good starting point, but I’m not sure there is going to be a silver bullet in there anywhere that is going to completely work for everyone, all the time. You can be raised by parents who are in a good marriage and still not have a clue how to go about getting one yourself, if you don’t have basic communication and human sexuality taught to you. These were issues, imo, that the church totally ignores and doesn’t deal with (outside of don’t have sex before marriage), because not getting into situations these days is easier said than done.

    Used to be, young ladies weren’t unchaperoned around young men in any kind of situation. They’d go from Daddy’s care to courting; having adult guidance (and supervision) all the way. The college environment leaves unprepared kids of both genders out there in a free-for-all environment without any real supervision and/or guidance.

    A friend’s son (recent college graduate and married for a year) had a heck of a time finding a girlfriend at the Christian college there because he wasn’t interested in dating; he was interested in *courting.* He did eventually find a like-minded young lady and they got married and graduated from college after courting for over a year.

    And, it used to be, the waltz was only danced with parties who were interested in pursuing marriage or already engaged or married, given the close contact required and the length of the dance. I think ballroom dancing is actually a very good idea- if nothing else, the female has to trust the leading of the partner, and when it comes to tossing and spinning, she also has to trust that she’s not going to get dropped. Trust is a biggy, imo.

    Also interestingly, the one now unmarried brother who is 33 has a lot to do with the university’s music department (he is on staff there), and he and some of his unmarried male friends put together a ballroom dance team (apparently, there are youtube videos) for the specific purpose of meeting young ladies. At this point, he is seeing a girl who, iir, is about 10 years younger than he is and is on the ballroom dance team………… :lol:

    He was another one who wanted to have sex and got married (around 23ish, iir), only to treat her terribly a year later, in the hopes she would leave him. In the end, he divorced her and was just really, really awful to her. Given that he is like my grandfather who didn’t marry until he was over 40 and that my grandma was considerably younger than he was, this is a situation where I think the age difference might actually work because of the slower progression of maturity.

    I think a list is a good place to start, but there are a huge amount of men, as I understand it, who don’t have anything like marriage on the mind, which makes it hard for girls who do- to find someone.

    My .02, of course, ymmv. {/rant} :lol:

  191. deti says:

    If women are going to look to marry, the men who propose to marry them would do well to know the dark side of female attraction.

    1. Women find bad boys, jocks, and jerks attractive. Why? Because in today’s SMP, these characteristics are a substitute and a mimic for confidence and dominance; and because they don’t follow social rules and conventions.

    2. A woman’s prime directive is to have babies. To do that she is propelled to get the best genes for reproduction she can possibly get. All other considerations for sex, marriage and relationships are secondary. Those genes may or may not come from her husband. Her secondary directive is to secure provisioning for her offspring. These are really the only two directives which drive women’s sexual conduct, and are the primary reason for hypergamy.

    3. A few women will cuckold a husband, i.e. marry a beta provider, and cheat on him to get superior alpha genes to produce strong, healthy children.

    4. Given the right circumstances, the right man, the right time, and low risk of detection, many women will cheat on their husbands.

    5. Wife cheating is nearly always fatal to a marriage. When she cheats, she has already emotionally and psychologically left her husband and no longer loves him.

    6. Women get off on rough, vigorous sex. Many women like jackhammering, hair tugging, being held down or restrained, and arse slapping during sex. Women will do sexual acts with alphas they would not dream of letting betas do to or for them.

    7. Women like being dominated during sex. They want their men to tell them what to do, how to do it and when to do it during sex.

    8. Women have sexual fantasies — being taken forcefully, BDSM, sexual domination, sex in public places, threesomes with simultaneous oral/vaginal penetration, et al ad infinitum. Maybe most women never fulfill them, but women have them nonetheless. Contrary to popular belief, the fantasies are not about “taming the alpha”. The fantasies are about allowing the alpha to unleash himself on her.

    9. A woman’s promiscuity can and does permanently damage her ability to pair bond to just one man. Once she develops a taste for alpha sex, nothing less will satisfy her, leading her to say her husband doesn’t attract her, and she is “not haaaaappy”, and frivolous divorce.

    10. Women can and will lie about their sexual pasts and histories, if they deem it to be to their advantage to do so. The most common tactic is to count only voluntary, sober P in V sex within a relationship as affecting her partner count. Thus, the general rule is to multiply a woman’s admitted sex partner count by three to get a good idea of her true partner count.

    11. Women can and will lie about, obfuscate and deny all of the above. Most women do not understand any of the above, or if they do understand it, they will deny that any of it exists. Or if they understand it and know of its existence, they will deny that any of it applies to them. Or if they understand it, know it exists and that it applies to them, they will deny that ALL of it applies to them.

  192. van Rooinek says:

    PW’s little tantrum told me all I need to know, about why her daughter can’t find a man.

    Oh, and PW, if you read this: yes, I tithe. And I’m a door-opening old fashoned chivalrist. And I pay for dates. And I’m tall and (I’ve often been told) handsome. And I never went all the way til my wedding night. And I’m in church every Sunday, and usually Wednesdays too. None of this did me a SHRED of good in the Christian dating realm. Not til my late 30s when my income skyrocketed, whereupon all of the sudden I was “hot”.

    Before that, single Christian women mostly treated me like SHIT. And many of them dated unbelievers, rather than me or any other good Christian guys I knew. And, I might add, sometimes responded to polite, honorable approaches, with unconscionable rudeness.

    As to this:
    Of course men their age have quit asking them out. They know the answer: no….Give up believing what girls say, what they do is the only reliable predictor of behaviour. Facts are that 80% of girls will only date about 20% of guys. The rest of them haven’t got a hope….

    More like, 100% of the girls will only date 5%. At my old church (over 1000, 70% single, good male/female ratio), no weddings took place for years. Part of this was due to the “I Kissed Dating Goodbye” stupidity, part of it was extreme hypergamy on the part of the women. (And part of it was I Kissed Dating Goodbye, hypocritcally applied: “I don’t date” (unless you own a house on the beach). Because the church was in Malibu, there were some musicians, actors, producers in the ranks, and pretty much all the girls were holding out for these guys and snubbing everyone else.

    The normal guys tried and tried and tried and finally basically gave up. The leader of the women’s ministry took great exception to this, and actually appeared before the assembled men of the church at the Men’s Retreat, and scathingly rebuked the single guys for not pursuing the women. So… inspired by her rant, a large number decided to try again. They were met with a resounding unanimous chorus of “No. No. No.No.” THE PROBLEM WAS NOT THE GUYS. The guys were game for dating and marrying. The girls had unrealistic standards.

    I eventually gave up and found a wife on the internet. Best decision I ever made.

    Hence, any normal girl who can’t attract the attention of a hot enough guy for their liking will complain that no-one ever asks them out, and it’s so, like, unfair.

    Indeed. Men below their required income/status level are romantically invisible to them, they can be asked out by several men and still, in their own heads, think that they are “never asked out”.

  193. deti says:

    12. Women are not naturally monogamous for life. In their natural state women are serially monogamous, i.e. pairing up for a period of months or years until she tires of him or he has outlived his usefulness to her. This is probably a product of past conditions in which many men died prematurely from war, disease, starvation, malnutrition or injury, leading women to search out and pair bond with another man as quickly as possible so as to produce and provide for children.
    — Corollary to #12: Contrary to popular belief, some women are willing to share a sufficiently alpha man with other women. Some women are willing to be in a soft harem, finding the sexual and romantic experience superior to a monogamous relationship with or marriage to a beta.

  194. LTR tips.

    At least some of the time: be rude and “sexist “, be insulting, be cold, be selfish in bed, be rough in bed, be chauvinistic, be insensitive, be unapologetic, laugh at her.

    It shouldn’t work, but it does. I am a Christian, so I find it troubling. But I am reporting the facts. A playful smack on the arse is better than a box of chocolates.

  195. van Rooinek says:

    At least some of the time: be rude and “sexist “, be insulting, be cold, be selfish in bed, be rough in bed, be chauvinistic, be insensitive, be unapologetic, laugh at her. It shouldn’t work, but it does. I am a Christian, so I find it troubling. But I am reporting the facts.

    Indeed, when I finally figured out that womens’ perennial gravitation toward jerks was not an endlessly repeated mistake, but their *actual preference*, I was heartbroken beyond words. I faced a terrible choice: Become a jerk (which would require destroying my own soul), and easily land the Christian wife of my choice — OR — stay righteous and keep on getting rejected.

    If Christian women impose a heartbreakingly punitive cost on men being righteous, they can expect two and only two outcomes:
    (a) many men will go over to the dark side.
    (b) the men who stay righteous, will view them with suspicion and contempt.

    Is this what they want?

  196. Lana says:

    Dalrock said that if women are not mature enough to be evaluating men for marriage, then they shouldn’t be dating. However, it is only in retrospect that I can see how my college-aged self was naive and looking for the wrong characteristics in a man. I didn’t realize it at the time! It was only through choosing poorly that I learned what to avoid in a man. What I needed was for my parents and my college Christian group leaders and my pastor and older women in my life to prepare me for what I would face in the dating world. I needed to be told that even Christian men might not have good character and be good mate material. There is so much I will tell my kids that was not explained well to me. Of course, my advice may be totally outdated by then…

  197. feministhater says:

    Gosh Lana, you’re not gifted in the common sense department, are you? If you didn’t know that not all Christian men are good or of good character for marriage then I really think your parents and family did you a disservice. Honestly, really? Is that your excuse for shacking up with alphas and bad boys before finding your beta mate at the end of a long journey of sexmeups? Did you ever think these men were not actually Christian but merely prowling around for women and saying they were whatever you wanted them to be in order so that they could get sex. Let me guess, you didn’t have intercourse with them but you were more than happy to give them a blow?

    You say you’re a Christian and were a Christian when you were younger, yet you couldn’t follow one simple command. No sex, including all that other stuff, before marriage. You Christian women really are delusional.

  198. imnobody says:

    Is this what they want?

    No, what they want is a super-duper hot alpha guy who is asshole enough to wet their panties but not asshole enough to be with other women. He has to be a sexually experienced Christian man who is wealthy, handsome and the envy of all their friends. They don’t have to do nothing to get this guys: it’s their birthright because they are Christ’s little princesses. When the time is right, God will send them this guy.

    If things don’t work that way, it’s because men are cads or wimps (take your pick).

  199. van Rooinek says:

    Lana: it is only in retrospect that I can see how my college-aged self was naive and looking for the wrong characteristics in a man. I didn’t realize it at the time! It was only through choosing poorly that I learned what to avoid in a man. What I needed was for my parents and my college Christian group leaders and my pastor and older women in my life to prepare me for what I would face in the dating world.

    Which is the whole point of this website.

    I needed to be told that even Christian men might not have good character and be good mate material

    True but uncontroversial. The controversy comes, when you assert that some Christian WOMEN aren’t such great catches either.

  200. feministhater says:

    True but uncontroversial. The controversy comes, when you assert that MOST Christian WOMEN aren’t such great catches either.

    Fixed that for ya!

  201. Pingback: Courting rules: What should a Christian woman be looking for in a man? « Wintery Knight

  202. SC says:

    Sure, they are great catches. Especially right after mother’s day!

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/26/mothers-day-2012_n_1450803.html

  203. Lana says:

    I already said that my parents did not prepare me well for finding a mate. If a man said he was a Christian, I tended to believe him. I must be so dumb. It’s not so easy for women, you know. With very little guidance, just how are women supposed to be wise at the young age they should be when they ideally marry? Women don’t plan to date a bunch of alpha males just for the fun of it and then marry a naive beta male. They start out hopeful, they date the men they’re attracted to who also pursue them, they believe these men are marriage material…until proven wrong. Have you never dated a woman who seemed like a catch at first and then later showed her true colors?

  204. feministhater says:

    Lana, simple, NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE! Wow, so hard to understand. You liked the thrill of dating, don’t lie, it’s not very Christian of you.

    There’s tons of guidance for women, as usual you just ignored it. Freedom is a bitch and I’m done excusing ‘Christian’ women because they choose to use their freedom to do alphas and bad boys and then come crying home saying that they didn’t know any better. Enough already.

  205. feministhater says:

    And your question should be this: “Have you never had sex with a women who seemed like a good Christian person at first and then later showed their true colours?”

    The answer would obviously be NO, why? Simple, good Christian people, DON’T HAVE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. Wow!

  206. SC says:

    In my opinion, one shouldn’t date with the idea that a person is marriage material until they are proven wrong. Dating should be to determine whether a person is marriage material or not.

    In my experience, I never assume that a woman is a catch at first because, without knowing her in depth (no pun intended), I don’t have any proof of how she may be psychologically.

  207. Dalrock says:

    @Lana

    Dalrock said that if women are not mature enough to be evaluating men for marriage, then they shouldn’t be dating. However, it is only in retrospect that I can see how my college-aged self was naive and looking for the wrong characteristics in a man.

    Were you following the three rules? I’m guessing not. I’m guessing you weren’t restricting yourself to men who you had reason to believe were interested in marriage (with you). I’m also 99% sure you weren’t looking for a man you could submit to. If you were, you were extremely uncommong even amongst Christian women.

    It isn’t just the age, but the mindset. You had the standard mindset. I’m proposing a radically different mindset, but you brush right past that.

  208. van Rooinek says:

    Feministhater, I agree with your views, but I think you go beyond the evidence when you accuse Lana of f***ing around. (Unless she has so stated, elsewhere. She hasn’t admitted it on this thread). It’s not impossible for a virgin woman to get strung along by alphas, and dumped, even without sex. Less likely, but it can happen.

  209. Ben says:

    Well guys- I would just like to say that as a single and never married man of 46 years I don’t see marriage in my near future nor does it bother me either. I don’t know about other guy’s backgrounds or situations but for me I was very shy when I was a teen and even in my 20’s. I went to Bob Jones University and they really pushed marriage on young people. Which to me was stupid- too many people get married too young and get divorced? They also had really silly strict rules on dating. Being shy and the type of person who hates when other people tell me what to do in my personal life- I didn’t date much needless to say.

    Even as an adult I have always had my own ideas and I tell people to mind their own business about my personal life. I live a godly lifestyle- that is since I am single I am celibate. That is the way the Bible tells me to live so that is how I live. Now it is my business if I chose to date and marry or not. I don’t care if people think I am weird, socially awkward or gay- it’s their problem not mine. What I do think is that I really feel sorry for young men trying to date and thinking about marriage in this feministic dominated society of ours. I also get really sick of church people and church leaders putting their 2 cents in and misquoting the bible to shame young men into dating and marriage before they are ready. And believe me I tell them off too- in a nice way. I remind them as long as young men are living a biblical lifestyle it is none of their business if they are still single- stay out of peoples private affairs! Also if they really did any real bible study they would know that the Apostle Paul was single and even encouraged others who have the gift of singleness to remain single.

    At 46 I don’t have the sex drive I once had and to tell you the truth I really don’t even get along with some women anyway. When I first moved away from home in my early 30’s I was interested in dating and I had the thoughts of maybe I might find someone compatible for a relationship or just to date. Well that never materialized. I have never been bitter about it nor that concerned for being single. I love being single and unattached. I am more of an introvert so I like being by myself- not all the time of course. I do like having friends- both male and female- but marriage never has really appealed to me. I am too independent I guess. Then the issue of who controls money in a relationship- I am not stingy nor am I selfish, but I am very anal about my stuff and how I do things and even how I arrange my things in my house. I have to be in control of my own finances and the like. I give to church and other groups like the Gideon’s. I can spend my own money without the aid of a female. I hate people telling me what to do and females love to tell men what to do. In my job I have to put up with a boss telling me what to do, but when it comes to my personal life I don’t need nor want anyone telling me what to do- especially not a woman. I have to remind people- namely females- to mind their own business.
    I did have ladies interested in me and even had a few pursue me- they were just not the ones I was interested in. I usually had ladies who were either obese or single moms with kids or overly aggressive types pursue me because I am quiet and a little shy. I used to be careful about what I say to people but now I just tell it like it is and if you don’t like it too bad. It’s no skin off my teeth.

    I found that when I lived in Charlotte NC in my early thirties that the women in the single groups were very materialistic and carnal. We had women coming into the church single groups dressing very immodestly and thought nothing of it. The attitudes of the women ranged from stuck up to desiring to pursue every dude in pants. It was a meat market atmosphere in most churches I went to. I really didn’t like it at all. I mostly went to make friends since I didn’t know anyone in the area and then I figured if I find a nice girl in the group that would be nice. Well that is just a pipe dream to find a nice real Christian girl today that a guy can get along with; have things in common with and is attracted too. Yes there are nice girls in these singles groups, but can you be attracted to them? I’m sorry but it is so hard for any normal sized guy to be attracted to obese women. As hard as I tried to visualize the thoughts of trying to date one of the girls in the group who was like that I couldn’t. I am not perfect in any way, but seriously we guys have to have someone we are attracted to physically and emotionally as well as being a good person who loves Jesus and others. And besides I am an active guy- I am not fat nor ugly- I was just looking for a normal size girl who wanted to stay active and look after her body. Doesn’t the word of God tell us that our bodies are the Temple of the Holy Spirit? So why would we abuse this temple just to feed our faces with junk food all day long?

    Then most of the attractive ones had such unattractive personalities and were so worldly I couldn’t see myself asking any of them out. One of my best male friends lived in the area for over 20 years and he dated one girl at church the whole time he lived there. Only one girl! In a city of 900,000 people! He had to find a girl on the internet- the young lady is a Pilipino- not native born. They are now happily married. She is a really sweet kind loving person. Even if I found someone like her I still wonder if I would get married- just cause I like someone and even attracted to them would I want to give up my independence to be with them? I think I am too set in my ways for that now.

    I remember one church I went too- the girls in the single group would sit around complaining that no one was asking them out in earshot of a group of guys. Instead of just being nice and talking to the guys they just sat there and complained. I didn’t say anything then- but now I would tell them. If you want a guy to ask you out- be nice and polite- talk to them not at them. If a guy opens a door for you say thank you instead of just thinking you deserve to get door opened for you because you are a female. They walked around like they thought they were better than anyone else and then complained they weren’t getting dates- I wonder why? Maybe if they had a clue as to how to treat men then maybe they would get a date. This seemed to be the general attitude- at the time- in the single groups I went to. I don’t know if it has improved or not since I don’t live in the area anymore nor do I bother with going to single groups anymore- that was 7 years ago. Also many females had this princess attitude that they deserved a rich Hollywood looking type when they weren’t all that great themselves. Every once in a while I did bump into a nice normal good girl but that wasn’t very often and they were usually a person who was just moving through and I never saw her again.

    How young should a man or women marry? They should be old enough to be mature enough to know what life is about and what they want to do with their life before they decide to settle down and have a family. Life is hard enough without throwing a wife and kids in the mix. I say at least late twenties or early thirties. A guy needs to have an idea of what he should be doing with his life- some guys take longer to figure out what God has called him to do. They might be in their thirties before they know- each person is different. Don’t make plans set in stone. Also material things are superficial and fleeting- you never know when you’re going to lose a job or have to change jobs. Your whole life and self esteem should not be centered on your job and your money making ability. That is a problem with men- all men. We need to focus on Jesus. Everyone needs to be close to Jesus every day. Your self esteem comes from God not from your looks- your job- or money- etc- only Jesus. Young women today- and yes even Christian women- seem to want to have it all right now. They want the handsome rich hubby with the good corporate job and the fancy big house, 2 or 3 kids, and cars, etc. all by the time they are 30! All the stuff and position it took my parents 35 years to collect. The mentality of females today is really out of sync with reality. TV shows and romance novels have really screwed up the mind of many females today. The only way to correct this problem is to stop watching TV and reading these stupid novels and read the bible and develop a relationship with Jesus instead of a relationship with fantasy TV shows and books. Life is not fantasy.

  210. feministhater says:

    Lana April 20, 2012 at 2:17 pm on the Slut! post.

    And see, I thought I was quite pure, maybe even prudish, for resolving not to have sexual intercourse before marriage, which I upheld until my marriage at 28. I even got the impression my own parents thought this was rather prudish. They seemed most concerned with making sure I knew sex was a good thing and I should feel comfortable with my sexuality. But I was a Christian, and I definitely didn’t want to get pregnant outside of marriage. I did almost everything else though, and no one ever told me this might come off as rather slutty to some men. No one ever told me that my “marriage market value” would be highest if I was as chaste as possible in every way. I didn’t receive good advice from anyone, and so I guess I assumed men would feel about me as I did about them. That some history of physical intimacy would prove my desirability. Never once did I realize that women are turned on by preselection, but men aren’t. My kids will know these things, how much better and less painful just to know these things.

    Technical virgin but still did ‘almost everything else though’. Yea, I don’t think I’m going too far here.

  211. Opus says:

    It used to be simple, really simple. Guys wanted sex (and were not averse to marriage – as marriage guaranteed them sex). Guys wanted girls, so the ball was in the woman’s court. Guys made the effort and risked the rejections and put-downs. As recently as forty years ago the average age of marriage for a woman was twenty, so high partner counts for women were very rare. As Dalrock recently said, one doesn’t just marry; so with courtship, and engagement the woman would have a year or two to suss out the guy who would probably be her first proper boyfriend (who in any event could be sued for breach of contract if he chickened-out – I am rather suspecting therefore that once engaged the woman would allow the man to have sex). Now, however, with delayed marriage, and female empowerment, decent women have become confused and have begun to throw themselves at Cads- after all as marriage is not their aim, those qualities that Betas have would interfere with their hedonism. They are not looking for marriage and one can hardly expect them to remain chaste – as if they were Nuns. Feminism has thus created the willing sluts men have always fantasized over. What is a guy to do, when his romantic and sincere attentions are treated with contempt; where he is accused of being’creepy’ where he is merely inept and inexperienced; where he sees the off-handed players succeeding with the sort of girl he is interested in? I can thus empathise with Lana’s confusion but as it’s Friday night, I’m off-out shortly, slut-hunting.

  212. slwerner says:

    Feministhater – ”Technical virgin but still did ‘almost everything else though’. Yea, I don’t think I’m going too far here.”

    Well, personally, I appreciate Lana’s honesty and forthrightness. She openly admits to her mistakes – unlike so many other woman who blame every man they possibly can, but never themselves for the things they’ve done.

    She also makes the point that her own parents and church did little to nothing to help guide her.

    I point this out because I think that it is important to hear from women who are willing to acknowledge such things. The fact that those of us who have long-been saying the very same things are men has made it tempting for our detractors to think that they can discredit us as a bunch of bitter losers. The voice of women who echo the same themes based the realities of their own experience serve as a counter-balance to the attempts to dismiss the message (or, at least convince others within their spheres to ignore the message – Betty Duffy, Mrs. Darwin, etc.).

    Lana also serves to highlight the difference between women who can accept the truth, and will publicly acknowledge that what they’ve been taught, and what they’ve practiced have been largely in error (not unlike many of us men who were taught to be Nice Guy’s) and those women who a repulsed by the truth (the preachers wife), and will leave in a huff, with their stated refusal to accept that there is anything wrong with the Churchian Status quo for training up young women.

    I do understand your contempt for the typical “normalization” of female pre-marital promiscuity that we find infesting churches, but I think Lana is a notable exception who now decries what has been going on.

    [now, if you will excuse me, I need to go take off my White-knight suit]

  213. Jacko says:

    Ben:

    Good comment. While I’m a decade younger than you, I am also a celibate Christian male [Catholic, in my case] and I don’t see myself ever marrying. I’m not a 100% confirmed bachelor and I’m not against marriage in principle, but I agree with you that it’s just too hard trying to find a woman who’s actually worth me giving up my quiet and simple bachelor lifestyle. Therefore, I don’t bother making the effort.

    My fantasy is to marry a sweet, virginal 19 year old Catholic girl who I can pray the Rosary with before we eagerly jump into bed together; we’ll have 4 or 5 kids and live happily ever after. But I know girls like that don’t exist in this day and age. If they do exist, then I have a deed to the Brooklyn Bridge to sell you. In the real world, I’m better off alone.

    Feministhater:

    You’re being awfully harsh in your treatment of Lana. She waited until marriage; how many girls today manage to keep their legs closed until then?????!!!!! Lana’s right. Girls don’t get any useful guidance nowadays. Because of the left-wing, girl power, feminist, politically correct world we live in, girls are on their own, so it really isn’t fair to heap all the blame on them when they make bad decisions.

  214. A Lady says:

    It should be socially acceptable to marry at 16-17 and older for girls. Any younger is not so physically healthy if the girl gets pregnant, and 16-17 is about the youngest you can safely start trying to have babies from an optimal health perspective.

    Due to the age of majority being 18, that’s the lowest age we’d consent to a daughter marrying, but if it were 16 or 17, we’d be ok with that.

  215. Joe Sheehy says:

    “conservative women are not our allies.”

    No, the comment about how all the women in the world being as pure as the driven snow would make no difference is really mind-blowing. There’s no serious value placed on true feminine virtue by these women. The ideal of chastity for these women is purely theoretical – they’re “good enough” – no matter how they act.

  216. Joe Sheehy says:

    “Due to the age of majority being 18, that’s the lowest age we’d consent to a daughter marrying, but if it were 16 or 17, we’d be ok with that.”

    That comment doesn’t really make sense. If you’re okay with marriage at 16 or 17, why is it impossible that you’d approve a marriage before the age of majority? Because of social scorn? With the age at 18 you can give the excuse it was out of your power?

  217. ray says:

    Dalrock — But this still leaves the question of how young a woman should marry.

    yep, so 214 responses later and we still dont know — nobody wants to actually answer that question, b/c it leads to answers that many do not like

    even on a “men’s site” guys do everything possible to KEEP from answering that question — and that says more than the actual content of the (non)answers

    your concluding paragraph sets no age, but instead offers a confusing and extremely open-to-interpretation set of theoretic criteria with absolutely no chance of practical, widespread application

    like marriage under our modern matriarchies, the issue of marriage-age for females is not going to be solved — nor aided nor clarified — by endless chatting and theorizing and Relationship Blogging

    the more complicated and dramatized and chattified the issue is, the more folks (esp females) like it, b/c then nothing is resolved and they can continue talking and writing and perseverating endlessy on such issues (while fatherhood and masculinity and family continue to be destroyed)

    in our gyno-cultures, female child-hood is usually extended liffelong — this brings tremendous power to females, and to the males who benefit most from the overprotective and uber-empowered Homeland Security State that serves women and girls

    sane, traditional cultures usually married off the females as soon as possible after menarche PRECISELY to avoid the myriad disasters that follow from mass young females wandering the society as sexual and economic free-agents — taking male education and employment away (b/c females are always Victims doncha know!) and then demanding marriage in their 30s and 40s, after having polluted themselves with multiple partners and become invulnerable to true bonding in obedience to ANY man, “alpha” or otherwise

    the guys, jobless and emasculated by male-hating cultures, also are in no position to start families, even in their thirties or forties (how can they? women have the jobs, education, legal “rights” and power, while men have the shouted commands to Man Up or Else)

    girls must remain virgins until marriage, so they can bond with their husbands and be removed from the (despicable term) SMP a.s. a. p.

    girls should betroth/marry as soon as possible/practicable after menarche, with LIFELONG vows before God of fidelity and obedience to their husbands

    divorce is unacceptable (God hates it) and reserved for truly extreme circumstances

    ONLY adherence to “biblical marriage” will solve modern marriage/relational issues, and we are just fooling ourselves to imagine that our Brilliant New Theories – full of compromises with the world – will do anything but more muddy the waters

    marriage cannot be reformed, at ANY level, while we live under feminist cultures, governments, and legal systems . . . marriage isn’t a set-aside, but is woven into the culture’s fabric, and is unremovable from same

    finally, what of the most potent economic, political, and legal force on the planet – aging empowered women? Hilary’s Haters?

    the hordes of maureen dowds who are the actual rulers of our nations, having squandered their youth, beauty, and chastity for multiple partners, for power over males, for careers over males? the Screechers who have been tearing the western world apart for a century now, who turn to the police, and to the “pastors” of the “churches” to enforce and exonerate their selfish and sick behaviors . . . “christian” leaders who act as proxies to shame men into relationships and marriage with fallen, rebellions women who have NO true regret, NO sincere humilty and/or repentance, and NO intention of renouncing their rebelliousness and willfullness?

    what provision should be made for these women, who rule our churches and political isles and courtrooms? how do we get them married? how do we make them happy? how do we get their Grooves back? how does sue walsh get them Hooked Up? how are they re-virginized (b/c folks, that IS what they want)

    answer: we dont

    answer: tough luck

    answer: bed, made, sleep in it (alone, you aint responsible enough for cats)

    instead of falling all over ourselves to (yet again!) reconstruct the entire civilization to serve whatever Maureen and the Grrls demand today, we must finally tell these bitter haters N-O and F-off forever

    instead of being allowed to dominate the “relationship debate” in their monologue media and campuses, instead of endless new “laws” to force males to their demands, instead of allowing them to rend the planet in their selfish rages, these women should be told to stop their childish caterwauling and finally go do something CONSTRUCTIVE for the nation and world they have so abused and degraded for their own selfish purposes

    that’s what a sane, biblical society would tell them: shut your crybaby mouths and start acting like actual mature women often did in my grandmothers’ generation, when they’d passed their sexual power-prime – do something useful and pleasing to the LORD, instead of crushing fatherhood and maleness b/c you got old and frittered away your youthful sexuality on empowerment and material enrichment and hawt Cosmo couplings

    capitulating to these women with endless Relationship Raps only digs the hole deeper; constant drama and blabbering is exactly what they want

    girls should marry a year or two after onset of menarche, after chaperoned court-ship – however, this will never work under the current system (world/satan/matriarchy) – it will ONLY work under obedience to God, and under biblical supervision administered by men who actually love the bible – not the fem-shills that now populate the western “churches” and tell females whatever they want to hear

  218. Lana says:

    slwerner, thank you. Yes, I DO regret some of my relationship choices, and I DO regret going as far as I did. It was wrong. It didn’t feel like that at the time because I was so comparatively prudish. How many women have not had intercourse until they are 28 when they get married? Do I wish I had never done anything else with anyone else before that? Absolutely. And Dalrock, no I wasn’t evaluating men properly. I wouldn’t have even known how to determine who was interested in marriage and who wasn’t. At 18, marriage seems a long way off anyway. My filters were all wrong. If a man was/said he was a Christian, and there was mutual attraction, I considered it OK to date him. Only after getting burned did I realize that was not enough. I think this is how women end up with their long checklists–they start to realize what was lacking in the men they’ve dated thus far and keep adding to their lists. I have compassion for men who were not taught well about relationships and women. Maybe some of you could show a bit more compassion toward women who were trying to find their way in a difficult dating environment without good guidance?

  219. van Rooinek says:

    I DO regret going as far as I did. It was wrong…..[but]..How many women have not had intercourse until they are 28 when they get married?

    Try being a man in that situation, and not marrying til 38. Ugh. I refuse to watch the movie, 40 Year Old Virgin, as it might evoke too many painful memories.

    FWIW, a lot of fools, including Christian fools, laud me for waiting so long. It’s the fastest way to start an argument with me. I start by pointing out how frustrating it was to be a virgin that long… and that I did not “WAIT”, I diligently and painfully searched the whole time. I hated every day of my singleness, from puberty at 11 to marriage & first copulation at 38.

    At 18, marriage seems a long way off anyway.

    That’s a huge problem right there. Girls (and guys) should not date/court/whatever until marriage seems like it could be “soon”, or, better yet, recalibrate your calendars and consider 18 a marriagable age. Putting off marriage til college/gradschool/career development etc is done, means waiting well into the 30s and very few have the strength to stay celibate that long, no matter how clear their convictions may be.

    As I noted above, I didn’t marry til age 38. This was NOT a choice. I wanted to marry at 19, but the women of my generation (and the generation after, from what i hear), were absolutely uninterested in an old fashioned commitment minded guy. Marriage seemed “a long way off” for them, and I was ready for it “right now”… so they played with badboys…

    My filters were all wrong. If a man was/said he was a Christian, and there was mutual attraction, I considered it OK to date him.

    You did better than a lot of Christian women. Many lack the “Christian” filter.

    Many tales of woe are told in the Manosphere, of how good Christian guys sat at home weekend after weekend, for lack of a date, while the Christian women we wanted, frequently dated unbelievers. It’s quite insulting actually.

    Maybe some of you could show a bit more compassion toward women who were trying to find their way in a difficult dating environment without good guidance?

    That is part of the humanitarian mission of Dalrock’s website.

    However, many good, marrriage minded Christian men, have been so badly burned by the current Christian dating dynamic, and have nowhere else to vent… Even after 10 years of happy marriage, my long miserable season of singleness still hurts. I don’t think it’ll ever totally get better., but talking about it helps.. And between the rants I hope you can glean some useful truths.

  220. lavazza1891 says:

    Lana: “I have compassion for men who were not taught well about relationships and women. Maybe some of you could show a bit more compassion toward women who were trying to find their way in a difficult dating environment without good guidance?”

    I guess the point when people avoid or even reject good guidance is the point when the compassion stops. The will to help and emphatize is proportional to the subject’s will to learn and be guided.

  221. P Ray & Lavazza1891: Regarding practitioners not meeting the ideals of their practice, such as church-going women or yoga-practicing women, it is a difficult lesson to learn that most are there mainly to burnish their reputation and status. They seem to take it only so far and no further, only for an hour or so and no more. The idea of virtue as something that can be found only in it’s practice is not common any more.

  222. feministhater says:

    It didn’t feel like that at the time because I was so comparatively prudish. How many women have not had intercourse until they are 28 when they get married?

    Lana: Yeah, because if everyone else is not doing what is right it excuses me from following the teachings of Christianity and I still expect to be called a Christian and get married when I’m ready.

    This is just blame shifting, I don’t care what anyone else says. You knew it was wrong, you’ve even admitted that you didn’t have sexual intercourse because you knew it was against your principles but yet you thought BJs, handjobs and getting licked up your vagina was perfectly acceptable. You had all the teachings but you dismissed them as too prudish and the real reason that you didn’t have intercourse was because you didn’t want to get pregnant. This is not a case of not knowing, this is a case of being told but because no one else was following, it became acceptable behaviour for you.

    I think this is how women end up with their long checklists–they start to realize what was lacking in the men they’ve dated thus far and keep adding to their lists.

    Lana: All those men who I gave BJs to didn’t commit to me, even though I wasn’t ready to marry anyway because at 18 marriage is like soooooooooo far away, so I created a checklist for men so long because I felt ‘worthy’ of that entitlement after having not been so ‘prudish’ myself because that’s like soooooooo for losers.

    Jeez, really?! Women create impossible to aspire to ‘lists’ because they all to easily give it up for the bad boys, who would have thunk? Anyway, why were you dating and giving head to men when you weren’t ready for marriage? Sounds like more blame shifting to me.

    Maybe some of you could show a bit more compassion toward women who were trying to find their way in a difficult dating environment without good guidance?

    Well of course, because when society is nice and gives freedom to girls they go out and squander that freedom by sleeping around with douchebags and bad boys and then expect marriage and divorce to carry on their courtship fantasies for freaking eternity. Sorry, I just don’t buy your sincerity, sounds like more blame shifting, with an added dash of shaming, to me.

    Anyway, you got married, have children or want to have them and hopefully raise them right. I wish you luck, I really do. You have to own your guilt though. To do that, you have to stop blaming society, teachers, your parents and your Church leaders for not being hard enough on you. I can for sure tell you that if you went to Church, they would have told you about sex before marriage and completely 100% advised against it. You chose to dismiss that as oppressing your sexuality. Just own it for once!

  223. feministhater says:

    Jacko, she did not wait till marriage. She didn’t have sexual intercourse, in other words no sexual penetration. However, she did everything else according to her own word. I might be harsh but I seem to be the only one here calling her out on her blame shifting. I stand by what I’ve said.

  224. lavazza1891 says:

    The Vain Yogi: Integration is difficult for everybody, but there are shades of grey. Like the Anusara scandal. I got irritated by a guy writing about the importance of not taking advantage of the trusts of students, but without mentioning the weird impulse of women not being able to be around a man of charisma and authority without wanting to sleep with him and making that happen.

  225. Lana says:

    To be honest, I really didn’t think that all the “everything but” activities counted as actual sex. This was all before Monica Lewinsky and the public discussion of what exactly counts as sex. When I heard that Christians should wait until marriage for sex, I thought of intercourse. And yes, getting pregnant premaritally was not going to happen, I made sure of that. So you think that when I say I didn’t receive good guidance, I am blame shifting? OK. I already said what I did was wrong and I think I should have received better advice. I jknew I shouldn’t have intercourse, shouldn’t get pregnant, everything else was murky for me. I take full responsibility for perceiving it all in a murky way and therefore making bad decisions.

  226. ukfred says:

    I am not so sure that this promiscuity oamongst students is a recent phenomenon. In England, young people of 18 or so frequently live in different towns and cities for University, and have done throughout the 20th Century. In the mid 1970’s I went to university and ended up going out with an 18 year old, who, by the 6th week of her first term had a partner count of 7. The first, her high school boyfriend and then an average of one per week for the first six weeks. Another girl at the same university was described as reminding a boy of a certain margarine, or at least her thighs reminded him, because they spread rather easily. This period was the period when everyone believed that free love had no lasting ill effects and that promiscuity had no effect on the probability of a subsequent marriage breaking down. I only wish that I had become a Christian during my first few weeks there, rather than the last few. I might have been a better husband.

  227. A Lady says:

    Going with the age of majority is easier on the kids wanting to marry, whether that age is 16 or 18. If some awesome potential husband meets one of my daughter(s) at 17 and can’t wait until she is 18, that means he’s not so awesome. Same for if the age of majority was 16 and he met the girl at 15 and couldn’t wait.

  228. feministhater says:

    No Lana, you were blame shifting because you say you did wrong but then immediately go on to say, “BUT”. ‘But’ by its very nature is, when describing fault that is, an excuse, an attempt to shift the blame to someone else. Very common: “I shot that man but I only did it because he ran into my bullet.”

    I don’t want to hear that you did all those naughty things because no one told you any better, I want to hear that you did them because you took the choice to partake in those actions, you and only you decided. Not the men who didn’t commit to you, not the society that encouraged it, not your parents, not the lame Church who basically would convert to Islam if that’s what was asked of them. I don’t want to hear excuses, they mean nothing but dust in the wind.

  229. A Lady says:

    So you have the same advice for all the guys blaming their upbringing for their lack of sweet poontang?

  230. feministhater says:

    What I needed was for my parents and my college Christian group leaders and my pastor and older women in my life to prepare me for what I would face in the dating world. I needed to be told that even Christian men might not have good character and be good mate material.

    This is what you call blame shifting. Since supposedly none of these people, none at all, told you to not HAVE SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE, you went off and dangled between the realms of
    ‘prudish’ to ‘slutdom’ sucking dicks because that wasn’t ‘really’ sex.

  231. feministhater says:

    No A Lady, society tells men a lie from the beginning and then blames them for not ‘manning up’ for society later on. That is not a case of men blame shifting. Blame shifting is when YOU do something and then shift it on to something else.

    In the one case, society and women are blaming men in the other the woman is blaming society or anyone else but herself.

  232. feministhater says:

    Picture this. You teach your children lies and then wonder why they don’t do what they should. You blame them instead of yourself. That would be blame shifting. However, if you told them the truth and they decided not to listen but instead to do their own thing and then blame you afterwards, they would be the ones who were blame shifting.

  233. Anonymous Reader says:

    UKFred
    I am not so sure that this promiscuity oamongst students is a recent phenomenon.

    For what definition of “recent”? When I studied history, one course was entitled “Modern” history, it started around 1500 AD and went forward.

    If I could talk to the retired professor I used to know, he’d consider “recent” anything that happened after 1960. The people I used to know who were born in the 1890’s might have considered anything after WWII “recent”.

    No doubt things in the culture changed after the 1960’s. So if you want to define “recent” as “since 1970″, ok, wholesale promiscuity isn’t “recent”. But…meh. As the senior Boomers fade away, the whole “1968” phenom will lose its standing as The Greatest Show Ever.

    Humans are naturally promiscuous. You can cite Bible verses, you can look at evo-bio, you can do genetic studies…men want a lot of sex with as many women as possible, women want serial monogamy with the most Alpha man they can pull. That’s our nature. So? It’s also the nature of 2 year olds to steal toys from their playmates and hit them in the process. We don’t condone “natural” behavior in the case of toddlers, I don’t see where there’s any excuse for doing the same for alleged adults.

  234. Ben says:

    I thouhgt this was a “Christian” blog. All this sex talk is vulgar. If this is the way young people talk today it is obvious that their parents never taught them anything. I was taught that sex before marraige was a sin. And yes we all have hormones. Both young men and women are supposed to be celibate till married- if you don’t beleive that then you are not a Chrsitian. I get really fed of with so called “Chrstian” women blaming men for their promisucous daughters behavior. It takes two to have sex. If a so called Christain girl can’t say no to a man then she is a weak little girl and not a woman of God. Also men need to take a lesson from Joseph- he ran from sexual sin. Men and women need to grow up and act like adults instead of horny little cretans. And stop all this blaming each other. I believe in personal responsisblity. The only person’s behavior I can control is myself- i can’t blame anyone else for my behavior but me. ladies next time you want to blame anyone for your lack of self control or lack of morals look in the mirrior and point at yourslef.

  235. Joe Sheehy says:

    “Going with the age of majority is easier on the kids wanting to marry, whether that age is 16 or 18. If some awesome potential husband meets one of my daughter(s) at 17 and can’t wait until she is 18,”

    What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. You say marriage is okay for 16 or 17 year old girls, but you’d make a man wait an extra year to marry just to prove he’s willing to wait? Why should you not give permission to marry earlier than 18, if you think marriage before 18 is okay? Your reasoning doesn’t make sense. Is it because of social disapproval for it?

  236. Lana says:

    I don’t get why you’re so fixated on whether I blame myself or others. I am concerned with women coming-of-age and also my own kids although they are small now. It is VERY much my responsiblity to teach them all that I was confused about. That is my concern. How will they know if someone doesn’t tell them? Most mendon’t understand the “red pill” unless someone tells them. Most women don’t understand their version of the “red pill” unless someone tells them. If my kids mess up because they don’t understand, it is definitely my fault and they can happily blame me.

  237. Dalrock says:

    @Lana

    I don’t get why you’re so fixated on whether I blame myself or others. I am concerned with women coming-of-age and also my own kids although they are small now. It is VERY much my responsiblity to teach them all that I was confused about. That is my concern. How will they know if someone doesn’t tell them? Most mendon’t understand the “red pill” unless someone tells them. Most women don’t understand their version of the “red pill” unless someone tells them. If my kids mess up because they don’t understand, it is definitely my fault and they can happily blame me.

    I’m pretty sympathetic to your point of view here. My main goal isn’t to make anyone feel bad about the choices they already made, it is to help others make better choices. This is after all the point of this post. I believe you understood this even for the much more inflamatory Slut! post.

    The problem is that we have a generation of older women loudly claiming they aren’t responsible for their own bad outcomes, and young women can’t help but hear this. The denial here is profound, and very difficult to break through. I attempted to do so in this post. I don’t know a way to help young men and women without confronting older men and women about their responsibility for their own choices. I focus on confronting women because the popular conception is they are never at fault. We have pastors and other religious leaders blaming men in general for the 40% out of wedlock birthrate. This is absolutely insane. The entire structure is designed to blame men for failures they may or may not have caused. Young men already get the message that they will be held accountable. This is to their benefit. Young women don’t get this message, much to everyone’s harm.

  238. Lana says:

    Thanks, Dalrock. I think we agree. Sometimes I go on parenting message boards and when the topic of feminism comes up, I might mention what I see as some of the downsides. I really get called out on that, and when I link increased divorce and extended singleness and infertility to feminism, I get told I’m crazy.

    Young women should definitely get these messages. However, will they listen? Do they even realize they need to figure out these things? More likely, they will need their parents and pastors to be clear with them, which is what I was trying to point out.

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  240. GKChesterton says:

    @Lana,

    Your doing fine. Past mistakes once admitted to and after seeking correction can’t be more undone.

    I am to this day though flabbergaste that the various other stimulations were not considered “sex” by so many people.

  241. lavazza1891 says:

    GKC: That is something American that leaves all Europeans perplexed. “Everything but” partners stand for the clear minority of partners here (maybe 10-20 %).

  242. feministhater says:

    Everything but ‘sex’ makes a complete mockery of the Christian ideal of ‘no sex before marriage’. It’s a cop out, pure and simple. The fact that Lana considered herself ‘pure’ even after engaging in all the but ‘sex’ simply makes it all the worse.

    The thinking is quite painstakingly clear. They know it’s wrong to have sexual relations before marriage but they still want to have sexual relations before marriage. In other words, they want to break the command but just not get caught doing it. SO they have all the sex they can have without being caught, i.e. no sexual penetration. This goes back to ‘virgin testing’ and so forth. The one way to have sex and still be considered a ‘virgin’ was just not to have sexual intercourse. It’s mockery, hello! No sex before marriage means all sex but this is just a means to get around it. Lana knew full well but still wanted to be considered a ‘virgin’.

    She excuses her behaviour by saying what she thought of as ‘sex’ was murky. I call bull.

    I am to this day though flabbergaste that the various other stimulations were not considered “sex” by so many people.

    At least we agree on something. Either Lana’s a moron for thinking sex isn’t really sex or she’s making a mockery of the faith.

  243. Jacob Ian Stalk says:

    @GKC

    “Your doing fine. Past mistakes once admitted to and after seeking correction can’t be more undone.”

    A gracious post. Praise God.

  244. an observer says:

    After a quarter century century in mainstream churches, I’ve seen the same relationship patterns over and over again. ‘Good’ church girl is attracted to guy wearing dark triad traits like a pheromone cape. Girl embarks on a sexual relationship with him (‘because at heart, he’s such a nice guy’) then gets dumped by the pick up artist because she’s not read the situation correctly. Conciously or otherwise, she attempts to bat above her average and wants the highest status male she can snare, using sexual acts to try and get a commitment from him. Relationship ends, she gets traded and blames him. Rinse and repeat throughout her 20s.

    White knighting church dudes have no chance. They are the good guys, the emotional tampons that feel lucky to marry one of these women at the tail end of their 20s, after she’s been used up and wrung dry by a succession of puas.

    There is no shortage of women (often from the same church) who can’t resist an attempt to redeem the pua for themselves. If he gets bored, there’s always other churches to go and play in. That’s why it’s called the Sunday Morning Nightclub.

    Sometimes the gilr might get distressed by the guilt and leave the church for a while to come back maybe several years later. Repentant, maybe. Damaged, definitely. I lost count of the number of girls I aproached who said they weren’t curently dating (the ‘it’s not you, it’s me’ approach …), and who blamed a previous bad experience. However, they often repeated the bad experience several times with different guy … so in a way, yes, it was them …

    Anyway, 30 is getting closer and the girl has a problem. She has made serious errors of judgement, wants to get married but admitting past errors is painful. She’s blamed they guys all along and continues to do so, assuming the victim role. “It just happened, he took advantage of me,” … “we were going in different directions” …. “I was vulnerable” …”‘I don’t normally do that”….

    After years of unsuccessully wooing alphas, she’s often pretty angry at men for invalidating her overvalued smv and convinced she’s hard done by. Results are not pretty. Lots of anger, resentment, controlling behaviours … and usually not a lot of submission going on once she finally gets married to some unsuspecting guy who worships she ground she treads on.

    Feminism builds on the victimist mindset. Many (most?) churches play the same card. Women are victims of the evil patriarchy, it’s not your fault, you did nothing wrong etc etc etc.

    Taking responsibility is critical for being able to identify and highlight these behaviours. Continued protestations and denial of culpability will result in her blaming the husband, comparing him to her five minutes of alpha, and finding him deficient. She often resents the husband she eventually marries, blames him for all the imagined sins of the men from her past, and carried a deep anger at him.

    This is why admitting personal blame is so critical. It helps stop the blame being deflected onto others. Once a victim always a victim, and the rationalisation hamster will stop at nothing to convince you of that.

    The preferred alternative would be for guys and girls to get married much sooner, in their early 20s. but this is unlikely ot happen soon, being counter cultural, against the self-idolising individualism of girlpower, countered by hypergamy and drowne amongst the vicious competition amongst women as to who can get the highest status mate.

    Ahh, church life . . . .

  245. greyghost says:

    Lavazzia1891
    That is what a rationalization hamster looks like in practice
    an observer
    As long as there are on consequences and the christian sluts are able to settle for the back up plan beta chump there is no reason to end this behavior. The only difference between a good wife and a horibble woman to be married to is the behavior they chose that they felt is in their own selfish interest. They are the same AWALT. Lana is normal that is a typical woman. She comes off as being honest but not responsible and is probably the best we are going to get ever from any woman. What she was doing was coming clean and trying to get someone anyone to give her virtue an had the my mom never told me about sucking dick etc. In my eye she should have kept that to herself or told of her past and spent more time discussing her deeds for the man she married and what she does to ensure she honors her commitment to her man and family. No attempt should have been made to get virtue from her past.
    I watched a movie that shows a beta with one of those flakes and what happens to a family http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0212604/ Tully.

  246. an observer says:

    Gg,

    So, an attempt at validation, then? Disappointing, but very possible.

    I have seen what happens to the backup plan men. I work with plenty of them. They usually have to start over in middle age with nothing but an ongoing child support liability. Some swallow what little pride they have left and move back inwith mom and dad. No kidding. Guy down the road did exactly that and is now looking forward to retirement (if ever) in his seventies. He is currently mid forties.

    Meanwhile, the kids gets messed up because they grow up thinking this is normal, to live with mom, see their dad every second weekend, amd watch their mom date in a declining sequence.

    Without taking responsibility, ithe abuse of government legalised nofault divorce, chilld support garnishees, and millions of fatherless children, will continue. It has spawned entire industries that now depend ona continuing stream of divorce grinder meat to carry on.

  247. Professor Mentu says:

    Excellent article, Dalrock. I can’t remember who said it, but I read a comment somewhere that said “Men should marry when they find the right woman and not a moment sooner, and women should marry when they find the right man and not a moment later.” This philosophy, along with what you’ve written here, would make for a great path.

  248. deti says:

    No one is going to read this comment, but:

    Here is a guideline for women on whether you have “had sex.”

    If either of the following has happened to you, you have “had sex” with a man:

    1. He penetrated any orifice of your body with his penis.
    2. He placed any part of his body on your vagina or anus.
    3. There was contact between your body and his penis.
    4. You did anything with him that ends in the colloquial vernacular “-job”.

  249. deti says:

    And if any of the above have happened, NONE of the following affect whether you have “had sex” with a man:

    1. Your mental state.
    2. Whether you were under the influence of any substance.
    3. Whether anyone else knows about the man or the “sex”.
    4. Whether he ejaculated.
    5. The orifice involved.
    6. Whether you liked it
    7. Whether you liked the man.
    8. Whether you had an orgasm.
    9. Your whereabouts at the time (vacation, Spring Break, et al).
    10. The length of time you knew the man before you “had sex” with him.
    11. The number of times you “had sex” with him.
    12. Your feelings about him, yourself, or the “sex”.

  250. Anonymous Reader says:

    Deti, have you been hanging around with Monica Lewinski again?
    Man, that has to be depressing.

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  252. canecaldo says:

    No A Lady, society tells men a lie from the beginning and then blames them for not ‘manning up’ for society later on. That is not a case of men blame shifting. Blame shifting is when YOU do something and then shift it on to something else.

    I think it’s important to note that The Lie is told to everybody, male and female–including her parents. In that context, Lana’s confession and questions seem good, to me. I don’t see her blame-shifting, so much as trying to understand what to do.

  253. Lana says:

    I sense that some of the men here think that women should “just know” these things. This seems like projection to me. Since it’s so obvious to you that sluts are unattractive and their SMV drops if they are slutty and that anything more than kissing is actual sex, you think women should know this. Women should also know that their SMV drops as they get older, that they should avoid alpha males, that looks and femininity matter more than career accomplishments, etc. It’s like you think this should just be instinctual or something.

    But in the same way, as a woman, I could look at a man who is having trouble with relationships and wonder why he just “doesn’t know” how to improve his situation. All the “red pill” stuff on these blogs is perfectly obvious to me and has been from a young age. On a gut level, I understand why alpha males have the best success with women and why some men get LJBFed much more than others

    As canecaldo says, everyone is being lied to. People don’t “just know” these things, at least not the majority of them. In addition:
    *Does being a total virgin at marriage really guarantee everything will go well? If a man acts beta, she still might have trouble responding ideally to him, no matter how pure her history. I know women like this.
    *In the same way, if a woman really respects and is attracted to her husband, I doubt that she is unable to bond with him, even if she has some history. I know women like this.
    *Despite my history, the man who comes to mind and who I wonder about is a man I crushed on and idealized. We never dated, never held hands, nothing.

  254. Anonymous age 70 says:

    I agree with the man who said marriage should happen shortly after menarche. No, I do not think it will happen, just saying it should.

    My wife’s great-grandma married in 1890. She was born in 1876.

    The law is different here in Mexico, and is probably the way it should be in the USA. Here the age of consent is 18. But, if it happens earlier, the result is different.

    Before age 12, sex with a girl is a serious crime, up to 40 years in prison. And, as in the USA, it matters not what the girl thought. You did it, you go to prison.

    After age 12, the cops can do nothing unless the parents or the girl files charges.

    And, after age 12, it is obtaining sex by (estupro) dirty tricks which is a crime. Between 12 and 14, if charges are filed, he is presumed guilty.

    After 14, estupro must be proved. If the girl says she was a willing participant, no prison, period.

    In 1977, in my village, a 12 year old girl was impregnated by a 25 year old man. Instead of tossing him in prison, then registering him as a sex offender, never to work again, the parents asked her if she wanted to be his woman. She said yes. They have been together 35 years, she is 47 and he is 60. They raised 3 kids, and the taxpayers paid not one cent. He worked and supported her and the kids.

    That is the way the law works here. The family decides.

    Girls who weren’t pregnant were often ordered by their parents to wed, when the parents realized they were hot and ready to go. That’s probably why my wife’s g-grandma wed at 14. In those days, unwed motherhood not only ruined her for marriage, but also her brothers and sisters. So, parents went to great lengths to avoid a knocked-up daughter.

    Honest, unstupid parents know what their daughter is up to.

  255. feministhater says:

    Lana, no one here said you should just know everything. However, you went to Church, you KNEW about NO SEX BEFORE MARRIAGE. Really, I’m done with this one. Men might not understand women perfectly, but most of us don’t go around sleeping with women to get ourselves to understand them. Some men do and once they understand these women for who and what they are, they don’t really want marriage with women anyway, sleeping around and then wanting marriage seems to very much be a women only activity. Men use logic and reason rather than going on sexual escapades.

    You’re either serious about marriage or not, you were not, not until after you did all those things, yet you knew they were wrong and decided to do them anyway while still wanting marriage when you were ‘ready’.

    All this ‘red pill’ stuff was pretty much common sense until women decided it was evil and patriarchal. Women changed, yet those ‘Christian women’ still demand to be re-virgined because they ‘didn’t know any better’. Lame!

    I’m just sick and tired of hearing it.

  256. slwerner says:

    Just a bit off-topic, but relating back to what young women ARE being taught…

    Okay, this is rather embarrassing. My wife pointed out this article as it is about our alma mater, and the school where our son is currently a freshman. Anyway, The U of Colorado has hit rock-bottom in the BS pile. This IS what they are now teaching young women:

    Obama Advocates Student Loan Plan at U. Offering Class on ‘Disney’s Women and Girls’
    By Fred Lucas
    April 26, 2012

    (CNSNews.com) – President Obama this week advocated his plans for federally subsidized student loans and his desire to keep college costs down at the University of Colorado, a school whose Women and Gender Studies program includes a course on “Disney’s Women and Girls,” and where the full cost for an on-campus in-state student this year was $26,877.

  257. Opus says:

    There is an old Lorry [Truck] Driver joke, over here, which goes like this: Every time you sleep with your girlfriend, put a Sixpence [Dime] in a jar. After you have married her, every time you have sex with your then wife, remove a sixpence from the jar – and, no matter how long you are married, you will never succeed in emptying that Jar. This of course does not apply to Christians, who have nothing in the jar to begin with.

  258. ray says:

    Professor Mentu — Excellent article, Dalrock. I can’t remember who said it, but I read a comment somewhere that said Men should marry when they find the right woman and not a moment sooner, and women should marry when they find the right man and not a moment later.” This philosophy, along with what you’ve written here, would make for a great path.

    biblical understanding and obedience makes for a great path

    personal philosophy makes for hell

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  260. an observer says:

    Lana’s hamster has been busy.

    First, it insisted someone should have told her. It’s not her fault! She wasn’t ready to settle down. She didn’t know about reduced ability to pair bond, the lifelong effects of five minutes of alpha or how short women’s peak attractiveness is. Or what a sexual act is.

    Of course the church is to blame. They neve told me. And my parents set a bad example. And no-one ever mentors young girls these days. Something should be done.

    Then all these big nasty men said all these mean words. Yes, take it personally and getting offended always helps. Real men don’t say horrible things to girls (don’t hit me, i’m a. .. Oh, never mind. . .).

    Then, make accusations. Just because YOU MEN know this, you think everyone should. Not fair!! (stamp feet for added effect).

    Now, claim you knew it all along. I hadn’t heard all these fancy words before, but honestly? Deep down, I intuited all this stuff. Women can do that you know, that’show we are so good at partner selection, and errhh. . . Keeping up with current affairs. and stuff.

    Deny, deny, deny. Buyers regret does not apply to me. I am happy, contented and well adjusted. You men are being silly, with your big words and long sentences. . . Oooh, look, a cute puppy. . .

  261. Anonymous Reader says:

    Likely not everyone appreciates just what Boulder, Colorado is like. It’s the “Berkeley of the Rockies”. So no surprise that the women’s studies curriculum is a joke – because CU is in what is probably the most PC town in the Rocky Mountain states.

    It’s worth bearing courses like this in mind when one reads triumphalist “end of men” articles celebrating how more women than men are obtaining college degrees. What value does a woman with a degree in “women’s studies” bring to any non-governmental organization? The only thing someone like that can do is fill out grant proposals, spew politically correct nonsense on command, and generally be very unpleasant to associate with. Imagine a 22 year old woman with $100K in student loan debt and a degree in “women’s studies”, or maybe a dual degree – women’s studies & English literature. How can she earn enough money to pay that off in any reasonable length of time? She can’t. She needs a beta to take her in. But guess what, her “education” has made her all but impossible to marry, or even cohabit with. So would she have been better or worse off marrying at 20 while in college and completing only a degree in Eng. Lit?

    Not off topic, slwerner, nope. I think it’s part of the same conversation.

  262. Lana, I think you ARE being picked on a bit.

    However, you are being a bit coy. If what you did was give “blowjobs” to a range of men, then you were at best unchaste. Technically, you were a virgin, but an unchaste one.

    You really have two choices to explain your behaviour: naivety or unchastity.

  263. Joe Sheehy says:

    If you could earn money as a whore doing it, you’re not a virgin. At least, not virginal in any sense a man would really prize. Does a man want to kiss a whore?

  264. ray says:

    Anon Age 70 — My wife’s great-grandma married in 1890. She was born in 1876.

    yeah many of our grannies married at least that young — mine did on the maternal side

    both my grandmothers were lifelong obedient, helpful, loving and complementary wives to their husbands, even in the mens’ aged infirmities/deaths

    the actual Strong Women that modern females usually arent

    both of them would be repulsed by modern american females — one was christian, one not, but both supported the unquestioned public authority of the family’s men (tho private opinions were given!)

    my grannies would have NO sympathy for females who use the State to snatch the educations and jobs from men, take various sexual partners, then expect a groom to show up when the women are past their physical and reproductive primes

    they would tell the grrls “tough. get back to scrubbing. do something useful”

  265. canecaldo says:

    If you could earn money as a whore doing it, you’re not a virgin.

    I don’t know whether you made that up, or not. Either way, it’s a great definition.

  266. canecaldo says:

    @ Lana

    I’m curious. Is this guy:
    “One guy I crushed on was 5 years older than me which seemed like quite a gap.”

    the same as this guy:
    “*Despite my history, the man who comes to mind and who I wonder about is a man I crushed on and idealized. We never dated, never held hands, nothing.”?

  267. Rico says:

    Even after 10 years of happy marriage, my long miserable season of singleness still hurts. I don’t think it’ll ever totally get better., but talking about it helps.. And between the rants I hope you can glean some useful truths.

    Preach it… I married at 32, despite being marriage-minded from puberty. Prior to that my mom (who married at 22 to a natural alpha – 6’4″, college athlete, doctor) would always say that once you find “the one”, the years of singleness won’t matter any more. Simply not true – though she also told me to be nice and be myself to attract women. She’s a good hearted woman, but simply not very wise in this area.

    While I love my wife, I still deeply regret the wasted years – years where I would have made a good husband and father. I was hit by cancer at 30, which has made getting my wife pregnant nearly impossible.

    I knew quite a few Christian, marriage-minded women in my 20s, but they were after their own kind of alpha – preachers, missionaries, etc. Not my bag. Couple that with a good helping of the blue pill (see my mom’s advice), and I guess it was inevitable. But man, I certainly would have loved to get married in my mid 20s and have a brood of kids approaching their teen years by now. Cie la vie.

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  270. Durasim says:

    Oh, look. Thanks to supposed psychology research, men with stay-at-home wives are presumptively reactionary criminals against equality.

    http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2012/06/im-not-your-wife-a-new-study-points-to-a-hidden-form-of-sexism/258057/

    The feminists will be crowing with delight! I guess the next step will be barring such men from receiving promotions or having positions of professional authority. That ought to make them see the light and compel their wives to work.

  271. Christina says:

    With all due respect, that view is something that women such as yourself have an interest in propagating, and the being “creeped out” aspect is more about social shaming from other women than it is about a natural aversion to older men. Younger women are attracted to older men.

    Late to the conversation – but this made me laugh. I was in high school and my softball coach was an older man with college-aged twin sons (very good looking) who were our batting and pitching coaches. GREAT group of men!

    My sister started HS the next year, so she got the coach and his boys, too, when she started playing. She asked me one night “He’s really cute, isn’t he?” I said, for his age, he really is hot. I was talking about the coach…she was talking about one of the twins. She shot me a glance and said “Who are YOU talking about?!?!”

    Older men can come with stability and wisdom, and a mixture of gentleness and authority that is – in the right sense – fatherly, but not in one bit unattractive at all.

  272. Christina, if a girl likes the father type, she need only marry a slightly older man if he has a fatherly personality. I think my wife likes a bit of this. I am six years older only, but it seems to be enough.

  273. Anon E Myshkin says:

    preacher’s wife:

    [...] her checklist someone who can keep up with her mentally
    [...] the only man who held her door, her father

    How smart can she be if she can’t even maneuver her way through a door?
    tiddy-boom

    Seriously, though, preacher’s wife doesn’t seem that unreasonable; some people are just assuming she has a feminist attitude and overactive hamster. She even acknowledges that the finding a life partner business ‘Its a mutual problem’, although she doesn’t take that to a logical conclusion.

    [...] The problem is you can’t find good young men [...]
    He really did go quite beta after about a year and it turned her off.

    OTOH that is pathetic. But going with it.. the daughter missed out on her best opportunity – grade school – and now it’s time to seriously look at men twice or triple her age. Otherwise she’ll miss the last train to betaville.

  274. JoeS says:

    @Christina

    Having been the recipient of a lot of attention from teenage girls, the “creep” angle is a convenient excuse and smear tactic for preventing to attempt an serious relationships between young women and men 10-20 years their senior. It’s an attempt by older 20s something women to keep their marriage cartel secure. These women will obsess over 19th century literature where such age differences are common but suddenly turn into vicious feminists at the drop of the hat when a guy around 30 starts talking to an 18 year old girl.

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  278. Sweet says:

    I believe that God will help otherwise it is not destiny, and he chooses your future. You may make plans, but God plans too. Besides, I was comparing photographs of myself at 18/19 years old with myself now, at 24. I must admit, I look much more attractive as my figure has become more hour-glass and my skin is glowing (unlike the skinny 18 year old phased by dieting trends/vegetarian). I have much more attention from males my own age than ever before and I am not as the so called prime between 18-22. These are outlines that you have written about, and should be taken into consideration but women need to be more active in determining the qualities of their future partner. The worst and common thing that a female does, is go with an average guy whilst she waits for the so-called perfect one. She should just be single, like me, until the right one comes along otherwise she will miss out on him.

  279. Sweet says:

    By the way, feminism has many varying strands….including that of the strange radical and marxist kinds. I think that it has changed meaning through time, and most of the men on here must be at least over 25 by their attitudes, which do not reflect an educated young man of around 20. Anyhow, I certainly do not define myself as a feminist…but I do believe in equality. So for someone to push the whole entire feminism debate to aside, including how it fought to place women in careers such as medicine and architecture, are only blinded by their own ideologies. There are at least a few correct ideas within feminism.

  280. Sweet says:

    Other wise how would I have become a MD student if there was no feminism movement? Think about it, you want a financial stable female but are against the feminism that allowed her to find such a career or education within a traditionally male university. Hmmmmmmm

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  283. joepsheehy says:

    If you were less attractive at 18-19 because of diet then that has nothing to do with what you should naturally be. Moreover if you married young your husband would have more years of your beauty. Your comment about men here being over 25 and not thinking the same as 20 year olds, what are you driving at? Feminism has always claimed to be egalitarian, and so if you say you believe in equality, in needing to be a financially independent woman, that is also feminism. As for being an MD, a bright young woman serves God better bringing up intelligent, educated children into this world than in delaying the passage of the old out of it as an MD.

    Aristotle said the appropriate age for marriage was 18 for women and 37 for men.

    You may well marry the kind of man you want, but you’re already too old and ambitious to be the kind of wife a truly devout Christian man would prefer.

    As for the discussion of God’s will. Yes, we must accept God’s will, that doesn’t mean we don’t recognize contingencies, and the fact that bad things happen because of bad decisions, the failures of ourselves, and very often too, the failures of others, that cause a great deal of unhappiness.

  284. an observer says:

    “The worst and common thing that a female does, is go with an average guy whilst she waits for the so-called perfect one.”

    Because average guys are pathetic. Worship at my feet, scum!

    “She should just be single, like me, until the right one comes along otherwise she will miss out on him.”

    I can sex up hot guys, but they’re not committing to me. I don’t get that.

    ” I look much more attractive as my figure has become more hour-glass and my skin is glowing”

    As a teenager my natural awesomeness was hidden. I am such a better, more valuable person now!

    “I certainly do not define myself as a feminist…I do believe in equality.”

    Feminists don’t get beauty treatments and are all lesbians. Anyway, I like getting special treatment just because I’m a girl.

  285. Sweet, that bitch would be anything but financially stable. Ha! She will have student loan debts of at least close to hundred thousand dollars, would not be able to make ends meet, would be living off her father while she studies at a big university getting screwed by every wondering dick.

    Nah, sweet cheeks, take that bull elsewhere. You’re a careerist femcunt, your bull crap might smell slightly better than the Marxist Femcunt but the outcome is the same.

    Oh, by the by, you’re delusional. You’re just fat now, an ‘hour glass figure’ is just an excuse to think you’re fine. Go away.

  286. Wow, the stupidity of the femcunt.

    “How would I achieve anything if I didn’t have feminism to destroy men and boys and put me on the fast track that I don’t deserve?”

    Hm, how about working for your own success or getting your sisters together and building your own Universities like men had to do? How about proving that you’re capable rather than having the State do it for you via feminism and man bashing?

    You’re a femcunt and you want privilege as well. Just go away.

  287. You better check yourself for radioactivity if your skin is glowing. Deadly that!

  288. an observer says:

    FH,

    You’re being too subtle.

    She’ll graduate with a six-figure student debt and an ego to match. And find that young, dumb nurses get far more action.

    Expensive lesson.

  289. Less says:

    I’m sorry- whilst I totally agree with the content in your post, I have to say, I think it’s men who are driving the delay in marriage. I don’t know one of my girlfriends, Christian or otherwise who wouldn’t want to be in a serious relationship leading to marriage. Whilst all of us have careers, have travelled, etc, it’s not because we’re raging feminists – it’s because the right guy hasn’t availed himself to us. The issue is definitely with men- and the prolonged period of adolescence that is so socially acceptable for them.

    I have just come out of an LTR of 2.5 years with a textbook “perfect” role model Christian guy- dumped me after all that time, saying he wasn’t ready for marriage and his career was more important, we’re too young, at 23-24. I totally was ready to marry him, and prior to us getting together, I was actively considering men who I could see myself marrying.

    I feel like I am in a bit of a spot now, at 24. I tried to prioritise dating the right type of guy and this happens?

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  294. julia says:

    Y can’t u guys admit that u want younger women?

    Men who want women to marry young like young women, she has to be attractive and young women r stupid.

    Just like men who want foreign wives from Asia. They’re almost always young, almost always attractive and submissive. Most Asian women r only chikds because of the one child policy and many men take advantage of that….meaning she doesn’t have brothers, uncles, an old father and other male relatives that can protect her from foreign men.

    Men know this. Men r predators by nature. Y can’t u all admit it?

    However I keep telling u guys to refer to the women u r talking about as “attractive”. U have to stop saying women because u r not talking about women u r referring to the “hot”, “pretty”, or other wise the non fat, ugly ones.

    Sorry for the typos

  295. Just like men who want foreign wives from Asia. They’re almost always young, almost always attractive and submissive. Most Asian women r only chikds because of the one child policy and many men take advantage of that….meaning she doesn’t have brothers, uncles, an old father and other male relatives that can protect her from foreign men.

    Men know this. Men r predators by nature. Y can’t u all admit it?

    Admit what?

    Julia, the reason why so many men in the United States import wives from China, Russia, and the Philippines, is because these men have had their marriage offers turned down when they were in their 20s. The women their own age wouldn’t have anything to do with them.

    So, these men focuses on their careers. But they wanted to be married. They wanted to be fathers. They just couldn’t find a young, fertile woman, to marry them. None would have them. What do you want them to do?

    So of course, when they are in their early to mid-thirties (solid in their careers with a little money in their pocket), they import (buy really) a young pretty wife from another country. They are using their greatest asset (their US Citizenship) and “selling that” to the most beautiful women in the world who would do ANYTHING to leave their 3rd world hell-holes. Who could blame them? These men who buy these women are fully aware that this relationship is probably not based on love… but at least they will have a respectful, submissive wife. And these men who were turned down by American women for over a decade will not be so sexually frustrated anymore. And maybe they will have children now.

    I really don’t see what the problem is. Why do you have a problem with this, whoever you are?

  296. julia says:

    Its funny how MGTOW can complain that women r bad but wen women complain that men r bad men always reply with “you’re just ugly and can’t get a man”.
    If men can’t get a wife then its the fault of women but if a woman can’t get a husband its the fault of either herself or other women.

    Another MRA tactic being that ALL or MOST men r good ans women can’t see that and ALL or MOST women r bad and can’t see that.

    Since men r good ppl then every woman in the world should have a husband, including the ugly fat ones, and snce women r evil it makes it impossible for men to get a wife.

    It’s stupid isn’t it?

    That’s OK athough because I’m ugly and fat and I don’t like men anyways.

  297. julia says:

    Sorry for the typos again.

    I meant to say that I don’t like men either.
    If uu DON’T LIKE ME THEN I DON’T LIKE YOU.

  298. MarcusD says:

    Most Asian women r only chikds because of the one child policy

    How did you come to that conclusion?

  299. That’s OK athough because I’m ugly and fat and I don’t like men anyways.

    I really feel sorry for you.

    I think maybe you need to get some help.

  300. Alexander says:

    I mean… win, win, right? Julia and the rest of you gals don’t get saddled with some stupid fat loser who has to import a wife (which you don’t care about because you totally weren’t competing for the lunkhead anyway), the import-a-wife gets to enjoy a better standard of living, and American Women are of course free to do this as well: just like Stella and Eat-Prey-Love!

    As an added bonus, those evil racist white menz are now siring biracial children, increasing our nation’s vibrant multiculturalism and eliminating white privilege! If anything, the amount of liberal dogoodery such men are doing should make.them eligible for serious tax benefits… or at least a ‘Hero of the Nation, third class’ medal.

    Julia, y u mad bro? U haet teh multiculti? U haet these men having teh rite 2 chooze?

  301. deti says:

    “@ Less:

    It really is women driving the marriage delay. They are the ones who are deciding to put o ff marriage. Your girlfriends are probably rejecting average men left and right while holding out for the perfect blend of alpha and beta.

    When you say “the right guy” hasn’t availed himself to you, what you’re really saying is that a sufficiently attractive man has not been dropped in your lap. Yes, you have careers and have travelled – code for “not ever gonna settle for anything less than total perfection” and “having fun meeting hot men in exotic locations”.

    What are you doing to try to find a guy? Are you following deti’s rules (be pretty, don’t get fat, be nice, be available)?

    Your getting dumped by a “perfect” Christian guy after 2.5 years? Aberration. Your one anecdote doesn’t mean men are driving the marriage delay. I am sure you haven’t told the whole story behind your breakup.

  302. Feminist Hater says:

    Yea Deti, she put out…

    No ring for sluts.

  303. deti says:

    FH:

    Could be anything.

    Could be she put out for other guys and was a reformed slut, and her N came up and he couldn’t live with that.

    Or she did put out before, but wouldn’t put out for him.

    Or she got fat.

    Or she wasn’t nice to him.

    Or she wasn’t available to him.

  304. Or, after 2.5 years she still hadn’t paid off all her credit card debt.

  305. julia says:

    Because I don’t like men u think I need help?

    Women r the cause of marriage delays? Because they don’t wanna get married at age 20-22?

    Isn’t it men who want to marry young girls? Aren’t these men usually in their mid to late 30’s? So who’s holding out?

    Normally it takes men much longer to mature so I don’t know wat you’re talking about women holding anything.

    Wat u men mean is that women r HOT wen they’re young but since men don’t want them after the age of 25 then it is their fault that men have to settle for fugly women.
    I also don’t understand wat u men mean that women want attractive me.

    Do u know how many women date unattractive men? Some have money and others don’t? Like Hugh heffner.

    There r PLENTY of articles that explain that men r visually stimulated and women by emotion. All a man has to do is make a woman feel good and she’ll fall at his feet. In order for said woman to even get recognized she has to be beautiful.

    Did u men fail biology? R u a defect? Did ppl tell u to love a woman for wats on the inside? R u men over the age of 30? The answer to all of these is most likely yes.

    Just because u see men with fugly women or u live in a state (most likely the mid west) where most of the women r at most a 6 out of 10 with a man does NOT mean that most men would date a 6 or below.

    Keep telling urself that women only go for Hot men. Keep living in ur small mid western townfll orof women that don’t get ur dick hard. That’s y rape is so low there? That’s y u can’t get a woman? Because they’re not ur type.

    As a fugly woman myself who is also a virgin and does not live in the Midwest but rather in the big city I can assure u there are WAY more hot women with ugly men than vice versa.

    Once again sorry for my typos.

  306. julia says:

    Oh and how can a woman know a man is going to be a loving father and husband based on looks.? We can’t so all that women want hot men nonsense is just that…nonsense.

    He has to be tall so he can protect her from other men. That’s y men r taller and stronger right?

    He has to have money to support her and future offspring.

    He has to be kind and caring to his lady, not abusive and so women can’t tell based on how he looks alone so drop the bullshit

  307. feeriker says:

    Inre Julia: Guys, why are you still feeding this troll? My eyes hurt just from trying to decipher her illiterate scribblings (an endeavor not worth the reward).

  308. Opus says:

    Whenever I see women going on about their Career – whenever do men talk like that? – and their love of travel, then I always think that she is either prick-teasing or shagging Alphas and that travel is a euphemism for having sex with exotic men in exotic locations, away from prying eyes so that she can return home either professing virginity or with some implausible story about some wonderful man (who it will never work out with because of course he is the waiter or the pool-boy or some other indigent of the type she would not be seen dead with in her home town) and thus washing away her promiscuity. Despite her crocodile tears Less or perhaps her friends seem to be of that type.

  309. deti says:

    Less says she and her friends travel and have careers because the right guys haven’t whisked them away to marriage altars yet. But if that guy had shown up when Less was 19 or 20, one wonders if she’d go into Fear of Missing Out. Most women at that age aren’t serious about finding a husband; that’s for later while they party down and go to school and make money.

  310. julia says:

    You wish I was a troll.

    Even though I apologized for my writing u still had to point out my “illiteracy”. Typical male making himself feel like a man to a woman in front of other men. Classic.

    @opus
    Everything u wrote applies to me more than women. It’s been proven time and time again by studies and by other MRA’s that men cheat. It’s in their nature.

    So since men do wat u wrote u think women do it too. BS at its finest.

    That’s right men keep telling urself that women cheat and want the hottest men on earth.

    Wasn’t u men the one that keep saying women are not like men and never will be?

    So y is it that u think women want hot men and cheat constantly wen men do it more often and have been doing it since the beginning of time?

    We’re not men right? So….Wtf?

  311. HtF says:

    “julia says:
    October 1, 2013 at 8:46 pm
    You wish I was a troll.

    Even though I apologized for my writing u still had to point out my “illiteracy”. Typical male making himself feel like a man to a woman in front of other men. Classic.

    @opus
    Everything u wrote applies to me more than women. It’s been proven time and time again by studies and by other MRA’s that men cheat. It’s in their nature.

    So since men do wat u wrote u think women do it too. BS at its finest.

    That’s right men keep telling urself that women cheat and want the hottest men on earth.

    Wasn’t u men the one that keep saying women are not like men and never will be?

    So y is it that u think women want hot men and cheat constantly wen men do it more often and have been doing it since the beginning of time?

    We’re not men right? So….Wtf?”

    What?

  312. Julia, if you are ugly and fat (as you said you are) lose some weight. Lose it. Diet, workout, lose the weight. Don’t do it for the men. Do it for yourself. You will feel better about yourself, you will develop some self-esteem, and you won’t feel the need to waste your time and make a fool of yourself on Dalrock’s board. Because (sweetheart) these guys are going to keep teasing you, poking fun at you, and it will ALL be at your expense.

    Stop thinking that negative attention is better than no attention.

  313. julia says:

    I will lose weight for myself. Unfortunately many men that ignore me now will want to talk to and get to know me. Do u think I’m stupid? I’m not like most girls that would start respecting and liking men because all of a sudden I lost weight and they wanna be all lovey dovey. And another unfortunate thing is ppl will blame me for not giving men the time of day. But wen men didn’t give me the time of day ppl told me to mo on but y can’t men get told the same thing? After losing weight I have to deal with men who wanna talk, date, fuck, respect, do favors for o, open doors for me wen they normally wouldn’t have done it had I stayed fat and ugly.

    At my expense? Yea right

    They don’t tease me they treat me like shit or they don’t talk to me at all. and I do the same thing to them.

    I’m not saying its a bad thing I just think men r weird.

  314. They don’t tease me …

    They are teasing you here. If you can’t figure that out, you have much bigger problems than being fat and ugly.

  315. deti says:

    I hope Dalrock puts up another substantive post soon. Toying with the drive by commenters here who refuse to see and hear is getting boring.

  316. deti says:

    Feminist Hater:

    If you see this message, send me an email.

  317. Ton says:

    WOW, That chick’s hamster is on roids

  318. Elspeth says:

    @ Less:

    Sometimes you can try and do everything right, and it just doesn’t work out as in the case of your relationship. You’re only 24. Still quite young outside of Internet standards, but I wouldn’t waste time fooling around. Pick up the pieces of your broken heart, pray for healing and get on about meeting someone who is ready to get married now.

  319. deti says:

    Julia:

    I don’t usually do this on Dalrock threads but I’ll make an exception for you.

    Stop reading and posting here.

    Keep working on losing weight. Put on some good makeup, get a good hairstyle, and put on a flattering dress and a smile every day. Be nice, genuinely kind and approachable, to people, including men.

    I think you might be pleasantly surprised at how easy it is to meet good men.

    I think you’ll be pleasantly surprised at how low the attractiveness bar in the real world is for most men, despite what you might be reading on those PUA sites.

    I think you’ll find out that most men neither want nor need a perfectly striking face, a flawless body, or perfect curves.

    I think you’ll find a man interested in you. He might not be the best man; might not be the richest man; might not be the hottest man. But if you give him a chance, it might just work.

  320. @Julia
    Please dont loose weight to attract a man if you dont intend to keep it off – That is false advertising. In addition, complaining and shaming a man for not finding your “interior” more attractive than your “exterior” is delusional to the nth power and hypocritical even further.
    Maybe… Just maybe your “interior” isn’t all that great.
    Bluntly, your under-exercised, undisciplined, entitled , and psycho delusional which makes for a unattractive person.

  321. deti says:

    Less:

    Elspeth’s advice is gold. . You’re 24 and were able to get and keep a Christian man for 2.5 years. That feat alone requires at least some modicum of attractiveness. You should have no trouble at all replacing the man if you are nice, pretty, not fat, and available.

  322. julia says:

    I can post where ever I feel like it.

    Most men do want a supermodel the problem is most women aren’t supermodels so u men have now choice but to settle for average.

    But u men still have trouble with fatties while u men can be fat basdards all day long and still want a woman to live u no matter wat.

    I am not dressing nicely, smile, do my hair, lose weight…for wat? So that some man could like me? That doesn’t make sense. Y would I change for ppl who don’t even talk to or smile at me?

    So how come if a man tells me that all men want a woman that’s at least an 8 but here u r telling me not to believe them. That I should believe u and u r only ONE man with ONE opinion.

    If u men aren’t so picky then y can’t u get a woman? If u men don’t like fatties then y can’t I assume u guys are picky? If all men r easy top
    lease then y don’t u lower ur standards for a fatty?

    Also…how the fuck did I shame men for not liking my personality? Where in my post did I say that?

    By the way I’ve had a total of 3 guys ask me out in my entire life and I told them all no. Y? Because I didn’t know them that’s y. The problem with u men is u think just by asking a girl out that she’s automatically suppose jump on it dick. The problem is u have a hard time being her friend first and a boyfriend last. Get to know her first and then ask her out. But only if she’s pretty ans smiles a lot. Wat horseshit.

    If u want me to stop posting then stop responding.

  323. julia says:

    Oh and by the way those aren’t my style.

    Good hair style, dresses, makeup have never been apart of my wardrobe and it never will be.

    PUA and plenty of other websites teach men how to get an attractive woman sho I call BS on men having a low attractive bar
    Good men? Where? In the Midwest where all the whites and feminist influence is? Not many in my state unless he’s a church boy and or in his 30’s. if I do meet them ill laugh in their face for being a white knight and mangina like u anti feminists like to call them and then claim they’re all around us.

    Just like fugly bitches get ignored and disrespected.

    Oh and also y should I be the best I can be if the man doesn’t have to be the best he should be, as in like u said, rich and hot?

  324. feeriker says:

    I wasn’t going to dignify Julia’s incoherent, illiterate rants with responses and I won’t do so now, but to everyone else out there responding to her:

    Please – JUST STOP.

    She very clearly isn’t interested in constructive advice and is merely here to troll and disrupt the flow of conversation. Even if she wanted to accept and act on the advice you’ve so graciously given her (which she obviously doesn’t), it would do her no immediate, discernible good. In order for her to in any way benefit from it, she would have to become a completely different person, one she clearly has no interest whatsoever in being (i.e., nice, cheerful, loving, kind, empathetic, to say nothing of the outward physical appearance changes that would be required). She is, probably always has been, and probably (save for a miracle due the grace of God) always will be an angry, bitter, cynical, irresponsible, self-hating shrew who repels all but the most desperate and self-loathing men the way that citronella repels mosquitoes. From the uniform tone of her posts here, even in response to those sincerely trying to help her, she clearly demonstrates that she has no problem remaining such a women. Indeed, she seems to relish the role.

    It’s Dalrock’s blog and far be it from me to tell him or anyone else who regularly contributes here how they should use their time here. But it just seems to me that this whole Julia tragicomedy has completely run its course, the joke has grown stale, and everyone’s time and energy would be much better spent in this thread offering marital advice to women who come here both really wanting it and who are deserving of it (Less, that would include you).

    Just my two piasters worth. That is all.

    Over and out.

  325. Hannah says:

    Feeriker – wise advice!

    I’m not sure if this is completely on topic but I read this article in our local paper yesterday:

    http://www.smh.com.au/lifestyle/beauty/in-defence-of-ugly-beauty-trends-20130913-2tows.html

    Basically it’s encouraging the use of makeup to create ‘ugly’ looks rather than enhancing ones (because apparently that’s kind of ridiculous!?!)

    Here’s a gem from the article:

    “(It also goes without saying that “Men don’t like [x beauty trend]” is too often trotted out as a reason not to use makeup as a tool of creative expression.)
    See, the very idea of wearing “natural makeup” is kind of ridiculous, when you think about it. Why go to the bother of slapping layers of goop on your face if you’re not going to make it perfectly obvious?”

    Now from this ‘logic’, it would seem that hair colouring and styles would be encouraged toward the PERFECTLY OBVIOUS too right?

    So men, when you see a female (well let’s assume you’ll recognise her as such!) with blue lipstick, grey and pink hair that’s shaved on one side…. make sure you admire her ‘creative expression’!

    Yikes this world’s being inverted.

    So back to the OP…. ‘how young should a woman marry?’

    Before she’s old enough to believe the propaganda.

    Before she falls for the lie that she’s God’s special snowflake princess no matter what she does and to celebrate her uniqueness she ought to follow the ‘ugly’ trend that expresses her beauty creatively and in such a diguised way that men will say en masse that they don’t like it.
    And before she then asks ‘Where have all the cowboys gone?’

    Realistically the closer to 18 a girl marries the better. Propaganda is frighteningly successful.

    All the best to those with daughters!
    May God help you with your endeavours to train your girls against the feral tide. (I’d suggest no Disney princess movies right from the get go but that’s just me :))

  326. Maeve says:

    @Feeriker – “Indeed, she seems to relish the role” – well, I guess she should. She certainly seems to have a great deal invested in it.

  327. feeriker says:

    Hannah asked, rhetorically: So back to the OP…. ‘how young should a woman marry?’

    Before she’s old enough to believe the propaganda.

    So no later than seven, right? :)~

  328. Hannah says:

    Feeriker… seven :) Yeah well I’d be in favour of communities going for some kind of arranged marriage set up!
    But yep I had a chuckle as I pondered on WHEN the propaganda kicks in…. still we could delay it somewhat… if children are homeschooled, kept away from mega church sunday schools, kept away from Facebook, movies and music and well media in general, not told they’re beautiful/clever/awesome by their parents every second second (!) and if parents read up about how subtle the message is ‘girls are morally superior to boys’ then maybe just maybe in individual households, the tide could be turned?
    Homes are being turned into an entitlement ground for girls, where boys are forced to adapt or upset the status quo.
    This is where I am so grateful my husband is a strong man who won’t allow societal pressure to moderate or compromise his choices for his household.
    Last week after a funeral, our boys were playing with their cousins and second cousins when suddenly there was a huge thumping sound. My husband sent me to check what the commotion was for, and it turns out that some of the older boys were calling one of our sons a girl version of his name…. So our 5 and 6 year old boys turned on them, attacking them with all their might!
    I said to no-one in particular that they were fortunate my husband wasn’t the one checking on the room because he’d be FURIOUS if anyone ever called his boy a girl… pretty sure they got the message… :)

    Knowing my husband well means that I can confidently act in accordance to his will – so there will be no boys being dressed in tutus here, no girls being falsely encouraged to think they’re doing better physically than boys in team sports/races etc, no ‘princess’ tv shows being watched, no ‘princess’ books being read, and no assumption that girls are better simply because they don’t need to run around regularly!

    When the machine’s as aggressive as it is, we can’t really be passive. My father calls it a Counter-Revolution to reclaim the Patriarchy.
    Dad also has a saying “Feminism: the ugly lie.” which I think aptly ties in with Rihanna’s blue lipstick ugly makeup movement!

  329. julia says:

    Nice, cheerful, kind and loving? To whom? Men? Y should I? I don’t receive it so I’m not gonna give it.

    I’ve been saying wat I have to say and none of u men responded directly. Only telling me to do such, such and such.

    @Hannah….let me guess….you’re an anti feminist woman? Anything good about girls u would like to say? Boys can’t wear tutus cause its for girls and a girl can’t be better than a boy at anything physical because shes a girl.

    Arranged marriages? Y don’t u move to the middle east. I bet ur marriage wasn’t arranged.

    I also bet Laila Ali can beat ur husbands ass. Just sayin

  330. Bradford says:

    Does anyone begin to suspect that Julia is a bored 12-15 yr old girl sitting in her bedroom on a school night creating some excitement?

  331. Ton says:

    Bradford, as a general rule, no matter the age of a woman, they operate as if they are 12-15 year old girls trying to create some dram to overcome their boredom

    What I don’t understand is men engaging with bored little girls doing their attention whoring antics. The proper responses are stone cold silence, death stare, a firm “be gone bitch”, slap on the ass etc etc.

  332. julia says:

    12-15 and whoring around. Just ur like female relatives Ton.

    I think I said in one of my posts that I was in my 20’s. Typical stupid males. Just because men act like 12-15 year olds doesn’t mean women act like that.

    Oh and by the way men do like them young. I believe a men’s right activist wanting the age on consent to be lowered to 13.

    But let me guess…its the 13 year old girls fault for dressing in a way that men’s dick will get hard. But wait….moat men don’t rape or like underage girls but its still womena fault.

    U men do exactly wat u hate feminists for doing….BLAME AND STEREOTYPE

  333. mustardnine says:

    Teach a man to fish, and you will feed him for a lifetime.
    Let a woman troll, and you’ll have a troll for a lifetime.
    Or as long as you let the woman troll.

    [D: Problem solved.]

  334. MarcusD says:

    @Ton

    Well, semantic analysis reveals that Julia is indeed female, and is definitely younger. With typos uncorrected, the age is about 12-17; with typos corrected, age shifts to 16-22. Overall, negative sentiment and unhappy tone.

    Playing around with another piece of software, it seems Julia is a ENFP (on MBT).

  335. julia says:

    Yea u men keep telling urselves that

  336. Hannah says:

    @Ton:
    “The proper responses are stone cold silence, death stare, a firm “be gone bitch”, slap on the ass etc etc.”

    Hey Ton :) How have you been doing?

    Several years back I was having issues with rubbish posted on Facebook that was slanderous against the family, and I asked my brother how he would deal with it. He looked at me like I was stupid. After I persisted with my line of question he said you DON’T deal with it, you don’t bother with it, you ignore it. And here’s the gem he gave me before I’d ever read a blog so never quite knew exactly what it meant:

    NEVER FEED THE TROLLS!

    After that my husband told me to delete my Facebook account so that took care of that, but I’ve never forgotten my brother’s instruction…. when something’s hungry and you starve it, it’ll go elsewhere for food.

    So I never feed the trolls. And eventually they go away.

  337. Spacetraveller says:

    @ Hannah/Freeriker/Ton, etc. who say something about feeding trolls. You are so right.
    However, like someone else pointed out, I don’t think the current troll is really a troll. She is telling us the (painful) truth about her life. And she is asking for help… but alas in the wrong way.

    May I congratulate those of you who have tried to help her – I really liked for example Deti’s awesome advice to her.
    And Manosphere commenters are labelled as ‘misogynists’? Let anyone read Deti’s advice to this young lady and not feel respect towards him…
    This person arrives with the usual contempt for men and disrespect for the readers and commenters of this blog…and yet, someone or some people brush aside her acid way of communicating and gives her great advice that would ensure that her life improves – IF she follows said advice. And yet she continues in the same vein…totally unaware that she is missing the (perhaps only one?) chance in her life to get a better life.

    I can honestly say that if our resident ‘troll’ followed Deti’s advice, she would be married within two years from now, to a man who adores her. Which is every woman’s goal (if she is ‘normal’).

    But of course following Det’s advice would include NOT commenting anymore here.
    At least not until she has done the self-examination that ensures she has assimilated the advice of these sensible and compassionate men (and women – the likes of Hannah, Elspeth, SSM) who are trying to help her and others like her.

    How sad that a woman already in her 20s is in this state. But I hope and pray that she does what she needs to do to arrive at a good place for a woman – at the side of a man she loves and who loves her, to help him as a ‘helpmeet’ all the days of her life. Which is what makes for a happy woman.

    This is my sincere prayer for our current resident troll and for the others who will no doubt continue to show up here.

    Congratulations to the commenters (and of course Dalrock himself!) who have shown kindness to such misguided young women, thereby showing me that you are indeed the real deal. No misogyny here, not from the men, and not from the women. I respect you and your ideals.

    In a similar vein, I liked how Kate, on a different thread on this blog also chastised another young woman who thought it fitting to post a picture of herself giving ‘the finger’ to Opus, who had made a comment about her appearance. That was also kind, for if this young woman does this in real life to enough men, she would find herself alone and unloved in the future. So bravo to Kate for correcting her now, and of course to Opus himself for confirming Kate’s advice.

    Clearly we live in a world where young people are being lied to everyday. If we can help those young people to see the truth, we would have made a massive difference to the quality of their lives. I can’t tell you how excited that makes me feel.

    Now I must get my nerdy self off to work :P

  338. Ton says:

    Hello my darling Kiwi, I am excellent as always. How about you and yours? I’m not sure about feeding trolls and what not Hannah but I am 100% sure about ignoring those beneath me.

    Marcus D, is there such a software program? Just wondering because you never know what random things nerds will come up with.

    Pearls before swine Spacetravller. The 1st dozen words or so shows that she is not ready for correction and a man should never waste his time on such women. That is most especially true for young women a man has romantic interests in but it is also true for interwebz attention whores. It is good to see women trying to correct her behavior.

  339. earl says:

    I want to go back to a time where women used sweetness, attractiveness, feminimity, and cooking skills to get the attention of a man.

    The other way has been allowed by weak men way too long.

  340. Opus says:

    Well, it was all my tactless fault. I merely said that I thought that she looked somewhat older than her stated twenty-two years – it was the caked-on make-up I suppose – and then I compounded matters by not really approving of the photograph, head and shoulders, which showed no signs of her wearing any clothes, though doubtless beneath the range of the cameras lens, she was. Imagine a man (other than say a beach photo) dressing like that. Despite all their degrees and feminist merit badges, what drives women crazy is any suggestion that they are neither as hot as they imagine or are less chaste than they like to aver. Thus, my name and being given the finger too, is now, or was then, on the internet for all to see. I can only pity the older boyfriend, should he decide to marry her, which was what she sought our advice about. If my observation produces that kind of response he can only be in for a lifetime of drama with her. Can’t remember her name either.

    By chance on my computer I have a photo, just one, taken in her room, of my girlfriend when she was twenty-two. Fully clothed, no obvious make-up and with her film-star looks just beautiful.

  341. Spacetraveller says:

    Oh Ton, I hope she does not turn out to be a swine, so to speak. I hope she becomes a butterfly, emerging fom her not-so-nice life circumstances at present, to a wonderful future, and a s a sweet side effect, making some man somewhere lucky he was born a man :-D

    Opus, I have no problem with that young woman retorting about your comment, in of itself. Perhaps you did deserve a come-back fom her – you know better than to make snarky comments about a young woman’s appearance, Herr Opus, surely, lol :P
    What I feel sad about was the rather uncouth way she did it, which I think is what Kate also reacted to. We all encounter people we disagree with from time to time. But there is a ladylike way of dealing with such encounters, and then there is her way of dealing with you.

    My issue is, a discerning man watching her will make a decision about her, and it would not be favourable. Indeed you came to a not-so-complimentary decision about her yourself, I imagine, as did most of us silent observers.

    In any case, she should not be behaving like that even if no-one were watching. She should learn to ‘self-police’ a little.

    I could do well to take my own advice sometimes!
    Thus endeth today’s sermon.

  342. Feminist Hater says:

    She should first learn to spell. Obviously been around a cell phone long enough.

  343. MarcusD says:

    @Ton

    Not really. It’s code I’ve written based on the following studies:

    Argamon, Shlomo, et al. “Gender, genre, and writing style in formal written texts.” Text 23.3 (2003): 321-346.

    Schler, Jonathan, et al. “Effects of Age and Gender on Blogging.” AAAI Spring Symposium: Computational Approaches to Analyzing Weblogs. 2006.

  344. Hannah says:

    @Ton:
    “I am 100% sure about ignoring those beneath me.”

    Good for you! I find it difficult to ascertain who’s ‘beneath me’… it’s also tempting to defend myself when attacked! But meh… it’s good to know when to walk away, and know when to run…

    I’m well thanks for asking, my grandfather died last week and other things going on here and there, but me and my man and my little household are good :)

  345. Ton says:

    I am sorry to hear that Hannah, you and yours are in my prayers.

  346. Pingback: How should women respond to men withdrawing from courtship? | Dalrock

  347. Emily Fenn says:

    Oh my god! This is disgusting!

    If ANYONE is submitting in a relationship it is not equal. A woman should not be worrying about giving herself away to a man’s control in marriage. Oh my god that really does frighten me. I can’t believe people are still teaching this bullshit.

    I can’t even fathom telling young girls that their biggest priority should be finding a man to submit to. That’s awful. It’s degrading and awful.. Women are adult humans. Not pets or children.

  348. Pingback: From celibate boyfriend to celibate husband (true love doesn’t wait). | Dalrock

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