Why men date younger women

At long last, match.com solves the mystery of why men date younger women.  8 men reveal: “Why I date younger women”:

Ever feel like all the men your age are dating women half your age? OK, maybe not half your age, but you get the idea. What makes men attracted to younger women? Is it just about looks and our youth-centric culture? Well, that’s part of it. But you might be surprised to learn the real reasons that go way beyond physical attraction: as it turns out, men are a bit more complicated than that!

I’m guessing it is because older women have had a long time to think about how they want a man to treat them.  Lets see if I’m right:

It’s all about the law of averages as you get older
“When you reach your late thirties, it’s not so much that dating a younger woman becomes more attractive, it’s just harder not to date them. The law of averages means that proportionately fewer women your age are single. But dating a woman in her twenties when you’re approaching 40 is also less demanding; you’re not faced with the same requirements to make a decision about your future. When your new girlfriend is 36, she expects you’re thinking about the next few years, not just the next few dates.”
— Colin, 38, Chicago, IL

Well, not exactly I guess.  It sounds like they would prefer to be dating older, less hot women, but no matter how hard they try they can’t find any.  Plus the hot young women keep throwing themselves in the way!  I really feel for these guys.  Where have all the older less hot women gone?  Now they have to settle for young hotties.  That and older women want commitment for what they gave to other guys for free when they were younger and hotter.

Lets see what the next man thinks:

Their carefree attitudes make younger women more appealing
“I’d say the allure is that younger women are less judgmental and less set in their ways. They don’t have a laundry list of what they want in a partner, a career or even life just yet. Younger women are more friendly, I suppose. I think that kind of attitude appeals to thirty-something guys who want a relationship to really be on their terms.”
— Larry, 35, Edison, NJ

Wait, maybe I was right after all.

They let me embrace my inner goofball on dates
“Honestly, younger women are sometimes more open to having goofy good times than a woman who has a few years on her. You can invite them to the midnight showing of Kung Fu Hustle without getting a skeptical look.”
— Mitchell, 39, Baltimore, MD

Sounds like more of the same.  Women are more fun before they have a decade or more to think about what men should do for them.  But can that be all?

Fewer years of dating equals less emotional baggage to carry
“The appealing thing about younger women is their outlook on life. They tend to be untainted by experiences that have hardened older women. For example, when a woman’s been lied to a lot after years of dating, she always thinks you’re lying to her, too. And that’s a turn-off. Younger women are less cynical, and that’s a big draw.”
— Alan*, 46 New York, NY

For those taking notes, evidently hotter women with less baggage are more enjoyable to date than the other way around.  Perhaps.  I think this guy might be jumping to conclusions though.

The next man weighs in:

Dating without an agenda means having more fun together
“What makes a younger woman a good catch? She’s not itching to have a ring on her finger. She’s interested in the here and now, in going out, in having fun. It may sound like a cliché, but it’s reality. I’m not anti-marriage, I’m just anti-agenda. A younger woman seems more willing to let things take their natural course.”
— Roger, 35, New York, NY

Yet another man who thinks that younger, hotter, less demanding women are preferable.  Could there be some truth to this, or is he just compensating for having a small penis?

Here’s the next man:

The ego boost helps me maintain my health and vitality
“When a guy reaches a certain age, he worries he will see his youth and vitality wane. A younger woman reaffirms for me that I’ve still got it going on.”
— Mike, 40, Orlando, FL

Ha!  That proves it.  Men don’t really prefer younger, hotter, nicer, less demanding women.  They only date them because of their fragile male egos!

Well, we already know the answer is because the men are insecure, but we may as well hear the last one out just to be polite:

Impressing a younger date is easier
“One advantage of dating a younger woman is that you can play ‘cruise director’ — i.e., show her all your secret favorite places that she probably hasn’t experienced yet. They’re easier to impress and very willing to be escorted around. Women like it when you have a plan and it’s well-executed.”
— Bill, 33, New York, NY

Sure they are easier to impress.  They haven’t had much time to think about how men should treat them!

The author is right, men really are complicated!

See also:

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313 Responses to Why men date younger women

  1. anonymous says:

    Unnecesarily long. An early 20s girl is hotter than a 30+ year old woman, PERIOD.

  2. Doug1 says:

    Very amusing.

  3. Bob says:

    While there’s plenty of shaming language to go around about cradle-robbing, or being fixated on youth and beauty, I would be interested to see the feminist thought process necessary for an argument against “They have better personalities and our life goals are more closely aligned.”

    It’s true even when you’re 24 like me, 18 year-olds are better to date than 25 year-olds. Looks are more or less the same (discounting the beginnings of haggardness in the hard-partying set or the 25′s), and careers are not yet a serious issue, but 18′s and 19′s are lower-maintenance, lower-mileage, more likely to enjoy any given date night than to criticize it for being something they’ve already done a dozen times, and every bit as intelligent. True, they lack some of the life experiences of 25′s, but since four out of five life stories a 25 year-old can share are either “travel,” sexcapades, or both, it’s not exactly a loss I’m going to lose sleep over.

  4. PT Barnum says:

    In cultures where marriage has been less devastated than America, no bones are made about the final point why younger women are better than older women. AND WHY A MAN IN HIS LATE 20S IS BETTER THAN A MAN IN HIS 30S.

    There are any number of valid reasons why a woman or man is unmarried past the normal age of marriage.

    And there is an even larger number of bad reasons why a woman or man is unmarried past the normal age of marriage. And some of those reasons are very bad.

    This point is explicitly and implicitly made in Latin American countries. There are valid reasons. And they want to hear that valid reason. Really, they are curious. Por que?

  5. JG says:

    “Where have all the older less hot women gone?”

    Have you tried looking in the plus size section of the women’s apparel department?

  6. Anonymous Reader says:

    Huh. How very strange that men in their 30′s and 40′s wouldn’t want to associate socially with cynical, bitter, argumentative, confrontational, contentious women carrying 400 bullet point non-negotiable lists of demands around with them. Surely it must be the men are insecure about their small penes…couldn’t be anything else. Right? Right.

  7. greenlander says:

    Women really are ruined by ruined by riding the carousel.

    I’m genuinely happy for guys like Roosh and Roissy who are just trying to enjoy their lives, and I respect them. But they’re *not* leaving them better than the left them. Riding the carousel really does ruin women, and one only needs date some women in their late thirties to see that for yourself.

    Having learned and applied some amount of game to both dating and relationships, I’ve noticed a pattern. All women throw shit tests, but younger women throw more dramatic but less substantial shit tests. Batting them away is easy once you see and identify them. It’s sort of fun, the way you play with a kitten.

    Older women are more like angry grown cats. Their shit tests are less frequent, but more substantial and not so easy to bat away with fluff and cocky banter. (Marry me! Or else…)

    I’ve absolutely busted my ass in this life to get to where I am now from where I started in life. I ain’t some thirtysomething shrew’s beta to settle down with and divorce when she’s tired of pump & dump of the carousel.

    If the kitten didn’t want me, I don’t want the cat.

  8. bc says:

    Nobody mentions kids? Is that taboo?

    Ms 32 hears the clock ticking and needs someone RSN. Ms 36 needs a father for her unborn children right now.

    No matter how they hide it, that has to be a damper on the start of a relationship despite their successful professional career, black belt in tae kwon do, neat apartment, stock options, fancy clothes, gym membership and great taste in music.

    Ms 24 just wants something to do on the weekend.

  9. Butterfly Flower says:

    AND WHY A MAN IN HIS LATE 20S IS BETTER THAN A MAN IN HIS 30S.

    There are any number of valid reasons why a woman or man is unmarried past the normal age of marriage. & there is an even larger number of bad reasons why a woman or man is unmarried past the normal age of marriage. And some of those reasons are very bad.

    I’m 19 and my boyfriend is entering his late 20′s. We’re a good match because I’m a good girl that wants to be in a serious relationship [instead riding any carousels], and he’s mature young man seeking a serious LTR with goals of marriage. I’d like to get married young, and most 19 year old guys just aren’t thinking about that. I’d rather get married in my early 20′s to a slightly older man, than wait ’till my late 20′s to marry a man the same age as me.

    Anyway, I always thought I’d want to date an older guy in his early 30′s [..what? early 30's seems really old to me] but I quickly noticed the only 30-ish year old guys interested in me all seemed to have issues or were blatant players. I doubt any of the 30-ish old guys who asked me out were seeking a relationship that ended in marriage.

    Heck, I doubt any of the men quoted in Dalrock’s post are actual marriage minded individuals. They’re just looking to sleep around; hence, why they’re avoiding older marriage-minded women. A slutty younger woman isn’t going to make any “a ring or I leave” ultimatums. I doubt they’d even demand commitment.

    So I think early an 20′s woman paired with late 20′s man is the best combination.

    A single 30-something guy still playing the field probably enjoys being single and isn’t interested in settling down; unlike his female 30-something counterparts.

  10. imnobody says:

    Let the hamster run… (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cv-0mmVnxPA)

    At the end of the day, when older women’s hamster is running, everybody is happier.

    - Older men are happier because they are with younger women.

    - Older women are happier because they believe their own beautiful lies (older men are intimidated by strong women like me) instead of the awful truth (young women are hotter and more desirable).

    - Older women are less combative with older men, if they think they are discarded for men’s flaws and not because of women’s flaws (there is no fury in hell like a woman scorned). So older men have more peace in their interactions with older women.

    It’s a win-win situation. And this is why, my friends, I propose “The Hamster” to the Nobel Peace Prize.

    Thank you, everybody, and love live The Hamster.

  11. Kathy says:

    Ya know, Greenlander.. I don’t think that you are such a bad fella.. Yes, really..I do agree with much of what you say, actually.
    I am sorry for the way that you have been treated by women.. I will admit that your cavalier attitude has rubbed me up the wrong way, previously…
    But, you are not a cad.. deep down…And, I think that if a decent woman had appreciated you for who were (an intelligent and decent guy) and not for what you could give her, and not tried to use you up… then, things would have been a whole lot different for you..

  12. Celeste says:

    Each post here leaves me more and more relieved to be married, young, to a wonderful man.

  13. Kane says:

    I thought it was because they’re afraid of confident older women, so they’d rather date younger girls with no life experience of riding a dozen random… motorcycles, while on vacation in Europe.

  14. jso says:

    the solution really is just to avoid women forever and masturbate

  15. It’s very strange that the kid issue wasn’t mentioned. The biological clock really starts ticking when a woman approaches 30 and from I have read and experience, the need to spawn gets wildly out of control between 30 and 35 if a woman has yet to bear children. I see all the time on the dating websites childless women in the mid-30s (and well beyond) who state that they want children.

    Sure, dating younger women is all well and good, but while they might not have a stated agenda, they certainly might have a biological agenda.

  16. Lainey says:

    Have things really changed so much in 20 years? I’m really uncertain as to these stereotypes. I was not single a long time, and married at 22. When I *was* single nearly every guy I dated was in the market for a LTR and marriage. Yes, there were players, but they turned me off. I went on a few dates with older guys. Most of them had ex-wives and kids, and that definitely was not something I was interested in. Some of the older guys had quirks or hang ups about women, probably a lot like older women here are being portrayed. I suspect just as many older men have as many hangups as older women.

  17. Dan in Philly says:

    Older women who are available are generally available for a reason. Older women who are hot, nuturing, undemanding, fun loving, and moral are generally married long before they become older.

    Older men are generally full of baggage, checklists, children, ex-spouses, etc, just like older women. but they usually are more established, more secure, more wealthy, etc than younger men so women generally can look past the bad to the good. Remember that when a women is screening men int their 20s, it’s like drafting for the NFL. Sure if you choose the next Peyton Manning you get him for low cost (and little baggage) but you might end up with the next Ryan Leaf, and in your 20s there’s no way for a young woman to judge which is which. An older Peyton Manning has a higher cost (baggage) but he has a track record of a stead job, a house, maybe you see him with his kids in a nuturing light, doesn’t drink or gamble, etc. and so though there is that higher cost, there is more assurance of what you’re getting as a woman.

    For an older woman to have a likewise high appeal despite the the crap they are hauling is more difficult, and would have to involve an unusually high degree of hotness and good spirit, which as I said is generally found in older married women, not older single ones. You can sometimes find one in their 30s, but it’s kind of like the proverbial finding a diamond while mining for coal – you just have to get really lucky. Far easier to find a young woman who you appeal to (for reasons stated above) and in unscarred and has a good spirit and is hot and marry her.

    Kind of stinks for young men and older women, really. But the young men should be working at establishing themselves anyway rather than looking to settle down, so it can eventually work out for them. As for the older women, they always have their cats to look forward to. Or, if they are allergic to fur, they can pick up the dregs of the older men, multiple kids with multiple women, unemployed, ex-cons, degenerate gamblers, bikers, druggies and so on. I certainly have seen more than my share of college educated and otherwise worldly women settling for such, once they realized that was the best they would likely be able to do…

  18. Lainey says:

    That makes sense, Dan. The male/female issues are a concern, because I do worry about my kids finding spouses someday that share their values. That is if they choose to marry. The hook ups that go on are definitely not what I want for them.

  19. Butterfly Flower says:

    I went on a few dates with older guys. Most of them had ex-wives and kids, and that definitely was not something I was interested in. Some of the older guys had quirks or hang ups about women, probably a lot like older women here are being portrayed.

    I think it’s best for a young women to avoid older divorcées because there’s no way you’ll ever really find out the full story. It’s too much of a risk. You can’t just assume all divorced men were screwed over by evil selfish exes; that’s wishful thinking on behalf of the manosphere. Sometimes there’s a legitimate reason for a wife to leave her husband. Besides, nearly 70% of second marriages fail. Statistically it makes sense to avoid divorcées.

    I suspect just as many older men have as many hangups as older women.

    Yeah, that’s usually the case. Single 30-something men are either jaded about relationships, or swinging single and not looking to settle down.

  20. Dan in Philly says:

    Lainey, I think your best chance to raise children who will be happy with their spouse is:
    1) Train them to be a good spouse – remember if they aren’t a good spouse, they are unlikely to attract a good spouse.
    2) Train them to recognize the qualities which make a good spouse – In men, stability, morality, education and/or ambition without being married to a job/career, a good family life to model their own behavior upon. In women, kindness towards the elderly and children, fitness and beauty without being too vain, a good and nuturing spirit, morality, and a good family life to model their behavior upon. Note these behaviors and values you train them to look for in their spouse they should be nurturing in themselves (though gender reversed).
    3) Educate them as to the lies they will be told by the world, about the dangers of casual sex (physical, emotional, spitirual), the virtues of their gender (which are usually presented as vices by the world/mass media), and how to value people for who and what they are.

    Other than this, you can convince them to allow you to choose their spouse for you, which is far more likely to have success than them choosing for themselves, but I doubt this will work, the world being what it is…

  21. TarHeelDude says:

    I married a woman a year older than me after going through two divorces. I dated the younger women and didn’t find the maturity or the intellect I was looking for nor did I find them to have my best interest at heart. Sexually, they were great but it’s like cotton candy after a while, all taste and no substance. I guess to me, it really didn’t matter about the age as long as I found someone that had the same ideas I had regarding commitment and most importantly having my best interests at heart.

  22. Eric says:

    I think Butterfly Flower makes a good point that most of the men in Dalrock’s article are hardly marriage minded. There’s no real distinction in women’s attitudes towards men in our feminocentric cutlure: they hate real men at all ages and prefer jerks no matter what. The issue stems from the fact that they despise maturity in men, just like they despise every other positive masculine quality.

    As proof of that, just read or listen to typical American women spouting off on this subject. They shame and put down men (that is respectable men) who pursue younger women as ‘middle-aged losers’ and ‘creepy older dudes’. But guess what? I know more than a few guys who really ARE creepy losers, a lot of them older than myself, and these guys haven’t the slightest problem dating younger women. Surprise, surprise! Then, of course, ‘well, after all, age is just a number!’

    Again, regardless, of whether a man prefers younger or more mature women, his best bet is to abandon the Anglosphere and find a girl who’s worthy of him.

  23. Lainey says:

    Dan, we are doing most of that. My teens are probably too nice though, and I probably worry more than necessary.

    I have to say some of the anger shown towards women on some of these blogs does surprise me.

  24. Eric says:

    Lainey:
    What’s surprising about such anger? Most of us have been the receiving of a lot of bad treatment from the ‘fair sex.’
    In fact, women should pay a lot less attention to men’s anger and start focusing on their own selfishness and ruthlessness. That’s what makes a lot of guys angry—and justifably so.

  25. detinennui32 says:

    privateman said: “The biological clock really starts ticking when a woman approaches 30 and from I have read and experience, the need to spawn gets wildly out of control between 30 and 35 if a woman has yet to bear children. I see all the time on the dating websites childless women in the mid-30s (and well beyond) who state that they want children.

    Sure, dating younger women is all well and good, but while they might not have a stated agenda, they certainly might have a biological agenda.”

    Cosigned. My experience matches this perfectly. The clock is ticking loudly approaching age 30. By 31 or 32 it’s roaring like a freight train. Looking back on my dating experience, childless women around age 30 are really DTF for just this reason — they are looking at their last shot for marriage and kids.

    The experience goes something like this: 29 or 30 or 31 YO woman meets man. She’s looking for action. The sex escalates rapidly. She’s down for anything you want to do in bed. She’s looking to lock you in. She drops little crumbs, hints here and there, about your life, your future together. Somewhere around six to twelve months in, the big hint comes:

    “I thought you’d ask me to get married. We’ve been together a long time, you know.”
    “What do you like for baby names?”
    “If we were going to get married, what kind of honeymoon would you want to take?”
    “All my friends are married.”
    “All my friends have kids.”

    Or the big ones:

    “We’re either getting married, or I’m breaking up with you.”

    Younger women aren’t nearly that serious yet. Many late 20s early 30s women are dead serious about getting married NOW so they can have kids and fulfill that biological imperative.

  26. Random Angeleno says:

    I’m in my early 50′s now; a couple of cogent points:
    I also cosign about the biological agenda. That kicks in something fierce. I married at 41 to a 36 year old woman. This turned out to be a disaster as it came out that she had married solely to look good to her family and I just happened to be in the way. Thankfully no kids came out of that one, but it still cost me a good chunk of change to part with her.

    On a few dating websites that I’ve tried over the years, I am always amused to see how many 40+ women say they’re looking for younger guys. The 45 year old woman looking for men aged 35-45, for instance. That cougar fantasy is very much out there though I don’t think it’s supported by reality. Further, I can always tell pictures that show a much older woman than the age she lists herself as. Like recently someone looked at my profile and indicated interest so I checked her out: she claimed to be 48 but her pictures screamed at least 58 at me. Next! Or some women will be truthful about their age but they’ll post a picture taken 25 to 50 pounds ago. If one of those women got me to meet her; I used to bust them hard about that. Now that I know more about where they’re coming from, I don’t bother getting heated up anymore, I just get up and leave so they can get back to their cats.

  27. Uncle Elmer says:

    The ego boost helps me maintain my health and vitality
    “When a guy reaches a certain age, he worries he will see his youth and vitality wane. A younger woman reaffirms for me that I’ve still got it going on.”
    — Mike, 40, Orlando, FL

    ————————-

    That seems to be a fake response. What do you expect from match.com but to provide shaming ammo for all the females on their site.

    On the other hand, I will agree with “Mike”; being around younger women boosts a man’s vitality, even his immune response, whereas an older woman will sap it. And not in a good way.

    Younger women have nicer bodies and are a lot more fun to be around.

    Forget the harpies. Run out and get a copy of “How to Date Young Women for Men Over 35, Volumes I and II” by R.Don Steele.

  28. Uncle Elmer says:

    I’m certain that roguring all those young gals improved my prostate function and blood circulation.

    I was sharper, more on-the-ball at work. People in general responded to me in a more positive, spirited manner.

    Of course, even the pros have to hang up their cleats eventually. That’s where the mail-order bride comes in.

  29. locard says:

    The best thing that ever happened to me was meeting my wife when we were both 21 and getting married a short time later. No **** riding here. Then again, I had a full time job at 21 and new who I was and where I was going.

  30. Morticia says:

    A couple of thoughts:

    - I got married at 19 and was definitely hotter than I am now. I am glad my husband got my best years.

    -I was a REALLY crappy wife the first few years. Entitled, undomestic, bitchy..I’m lucky he didn’t leave me. I think I am a more tolerant, easy-going, mature, and responsible woman now at (nearly) 30.

    I think that you have to expect less maturity in younger women but if that is tolerable then it is probably a better bet. I do think that anything more than a 15 year age difference is a bit excessive. You want to be able to enjoy your retirement years together…not have one bearing all the responsibility to be the caretaker.

  31. Matt says:

    The emphasis on “hot” is misplaced, I think. It’s no real trick to find really good-looking women in their 30s. I see them every day. And let’s face it…they all look the same in the dark.

    Older men dating younger women have an advantage at the implicit negotiations, is all. If a younger woman doesn’t like you, she just won’t date you. Hey, no big loss…plenty of other fish in the sea. But a woman who’s been riding the alpha carousel for a decade or more and now decides to get off can get mighty entitled. You’re no longer an individual human being with his own needs and desires…you’re just a representative of a class that she thinks owes her something.

    Who wants that?

    (For the record, I’m currently married to a woman who’s actually slightly older than I am. Never done the cradle-robbing thing, and never wanted to. But I can see why some guys would.)

  32. Dalrock says:

    @PT Barnum

    There are any number of valid reasons why a woman or man is unmarried past the normal age of marriage.

    And there is an even larger number of bad reasons why a woman or man is unmarried past the normal age of marriage. And some of those reasons are very bad.

    This point is explicitly and implicitly made in Latin American countries. There are valid reasons. And they want to hear that valid reason. Really, they are curious. Por que?

    This is my general sense as well. I don’t see men as being exempt from this question, although I would think they probably should be spotted an extra 5, maybe 10 years due to the differences in what men and women need to bring to the table in the SMP. But I think the basic question still needs to be answered for either sex. Why did this person delay marriage for so long? Is it really a priority for them? Have their experiences and/or choices lessened their ability to be satisfied in marriage and/or keep their vows?

    As for the issue of age differences in relationships that others have mentioned, I shared my thoughts on that in this post.

  33. ElectricAngel says:

    The emphasis on “hot” is misplaced, I think.

    More than you think, Matt. I once went out with a fairly plain woman, who knew it. Her attitude was to work on being a fun, loving, supportive person; she figured that looks fade, but that that constancy would remain. Wise beyond her years; if I had been so, I would have married her.

    I wonder what the breakdown would be? If you had to choose hot, or loving/supportive/not entitled, I’d bet most marriageable men would choose the latter, and most PUAs the former.

  34. Anonymous Reader says:

    The emphasis on “hot” is misplaced, I think.

    Depends on what one means by “hot”. “Hot” as in hotbody, looks, etc.? See below. “Hot” as in good attitude, not prudish, not embarrassed by biology? See below.

    More than you think, Matt. I once went out with a fairly plain woman, who knew it. Her attitude was to work on being a fun, loving, supportive person; she figured that looks fade, but that that constancy would remain. Wise beyond her years; if I had been so, I would have married her.

    No guarantees, though, that she would not have become contentious, entitled, taking your loyalty to her for granted, etc. I think it is part of human nature to take people for granted to some degree. So part of any relatiionship Game must involve consciously not taking one’s partner for granted, and making very sure when she inevitably does take you for granted, the feedback is as immediate and unmistakably clear as possible.

  35. jack says:

    Good point about the best years.

    Everybody wants a kitten, few want the adult cat, as pointed out in the above comment.

    Women think their SMP power is unlimited. It is hard for me not to revel in schadenfreude when I read this stuff.

    Nothing like watching someone have to choke down the outcome of selfish, arrogant, youthful decisions.

    I will sail the boat of my old age on a sea of spinster tears.

  36. Lainey says:

    I agree, Jack. I will say though that the last cat we adopted was an adult. She is now my husband’s favorite. She hunts everything in our yard, and has single handedly run off the very moles my husband has been fighting (think Caddyshack) for the last 3 years. The rest of my cats came to us as kittens and are pretty darn lazy. LOL So you never know.

  37. jack says:

    Well maybe. But it will have to be a very sweet cat, then.

  38. Anonymous says:

    Um, because they’re more fertile, hotter and have less “baggage”?

  39. Lainey says:

    “Well maybe. But it will have to be a very sweet cat, then.”

    Very true. :)

  40. tiredofitall says:

    Why do men date younger women?

    Oddly enough for the same reasons a dog licks itself.
    1.) Because he can.
    2.) Because it feels sooooo good.

  41. blinderzoff says:

    So…why aren’t women attracted to short, fat, balding men of limited means?

    They must have fragile egos. And extraordinarily loose cunnies if I’m inferring correctly.

  42. mike says:

    Bottom line: older women are used up ugly prune who are bitter due to the prior divorce she went through. Young women are hot and like older men. Perfect match I’d say.

  43. Jack Chan says:

    Much of this is simply baggage, I have no desire to date women my own age because that usually means you’re going to be sucked into all the responsibilities an older woman with kids usually has.

    Also, in my experience, the older a woman gets, the more bitter she is. They’re just no longer fun to be around. They’re also OBSESSED with money because usually most of their problems in life at that point in their lives come down to money. They look at you as an ATM machine, more like an investment than a partner.

    Women REALLY hate this phenomenon of older men and younger women, but I can guarantee you just about every woman when they were younger had a fling or two with an older man.

    At the end of the day, this is all about voluntary choices two adults are making, no one is forcing anyone to do anything. The difference is, men are really in the driver’s seat as they get older, that’s why I tell all my friends not to rush and get married at an early age.

  44. Eugene says:

    I just turned 30 and I am seeing 1st hand my female peers who were once gorgeous back in HS/College now not looking so great with nothing else to offer.

    This is discussed all the time but older woman don’t want to admit it…Many woman use their looks to get by, yes you do! So lets say your a hot 18-25 year old (in 2001) party it up, or get married & have kids, 5 or 10 years later (2011) neglected to take care of your body and no real career or hobbies/goals, hate your babies dad and as a result call all men “cheaters” “pigs” and all that non sense… So this is what Im suppose to date?

    On average men want a woman who has youth/looks which is her asset physically and biologically….Woman want a man who takes care of himself, pursues career and life goals and is a provider.

    Now not all post 30 women are bad (or all post 30 men looking like Daniel Craig/Ryan Renolds) . I have met some awesome Women who still hit the gym, went to college, and have their life affairs in order. Stay fun and youthful and Ive even met single moms who are awesome! But in general they are snatched up quick or hard to come by…. So alas its out with the college girls/young 20 year olds…. And hopefully they wont fall into the negative cycle of the said above woman 10 or more years down the line

  45. Ains says:

    I think it all has to do with biology. Naturally, a younger women has more years of fertility left and also has a different bio-chemical makeup over older women. Men can detect this at a subconscious level. Yes, sure it sucks, but it’s reality. Men on the other hand, can procreate for a longer period of time, and so, their attractiveness is less affected by signs of aging. In fact, an older age can actually signal resources and status, attributes that women unfortunately rate more important than men. On a positive note, more recent research shows that women are also showing an increased preference for younger men as they earn higher incomes.

  46. alberto says:

    I dated and married a younger (22 years younger, 110 lbs.) woman because it made me feel fantastic! She looks, feels, smells and tastes like a college cheerleader. Plus she is a stage 5 clinger! I love that. We have been married almost 4 years, my first marriage lasted 25. This year I turn 60, the new 40! The kicker is when I show up with her anyplace, all the females start their wheels a turnin, wounderin, “WTF does this guy got?” The look on their face is priceless. The dudes just high 5 me, all day long. God has blessed me with a beautiful Latina princess. Thank you Jesus for my treasure at the end of the rainbow. BTW I got little money and drive a 96′ Taurus. Want to know how to do it guys? Buy my future book and DVD!

  47. Pingback: Father Knows Best: Homage to Quiplinks Edition « Patriactionary

  48. Red says:

    I am a 41 year old woman. I recently got on match.com and noticed how most men around my age want someone at least 5 years younger. Kind of frustrating. I do get emails from men in their late thirties and older, but what surprises me is all the emails I get from 29 year olds. In real life I know many many women who date or are married to younger men, 5 or so years. Anyway comments mention younger equals beauty, but the same goes for the males. I see young men and yes they are hotter usually than the older men. Seems like men don’t want responsibilities so they dream to have someone who does not require it. Although they I’m sure will have problems with any woman at any age, relationships are not easy.

  49. lilabee says:

    I’m 23 and a LOT of older men try and date me. But, honestly, I don’t find them attractive. They either have kids, are divorced, or married, are arrogant etc etc. while some are just as vibrant as me. But, its the little quirks that get me, like leaving the radio set to a certain station. Or getting upset if they don’t record their favorite show. I swear some older men are serious drama queens and are set in their ways lol. But they want young women? Please! The oldest guy I dated was 36, but he was so smooth and suave and good looking. He wore his age well (he didn’t look younger) and with attitude; he was enticing. Trust, there are not a lot of 30 something men, who re looking for 20 something women, that are that attractive.

  50. me says:

    a bunch of men that are retarded , im 19 and there is no way in hell id date someone over 25, they are old ugly and fat old men

  51. ybm says:

    me: don’t fakepost you aren’t very good at it.

  52. peace_hope_love12 says:

    I think it is sad how many men are saying such cruel things about women. Those are the men I am glad are not trying to date me, a 32 year old beautiful woman. As far as women being jaded, we didnt get their on our own. If a woman is jaded its because men didnt treat her well. As much as I want to get married and have a family, I wont feel like I’ve missed out if it doesnt happen. Mostly because of the shallowness of this world. And since I fall into the category of being jaded I will just say, I hope the young women who date you guys end up robbing you blind and leaving you alone! Then you’ll wish you had someone with more substance.. Dont forget, you fools die off alot faster than we do! And end up lonely old perves! Who waste your money on strippers or prostitutes, and end up with nothing. You think you’ve won when your dating younger, but eventually you will see that you lost and cant turn back the clock. With women, we continue to love and nurture other relationships and you all just end up lonely..Be careful of you choices, be careful of the reasons you choose who you choose.

  53. tweell says:

    Oh no, we have been shamed! Whatever shall we do!

    I know, we should all forego the younger women. Forget that they are skinnier and prettier, that they are more able to have healthy children. Forget that they have had fewer relationships and so are more able to truly bond with a husband. Forget that they are more flexible, more able to compromise instead of instantly going for the cash and prizes of divorce court.

    We have to take care of the older women! Never mind that they are more apt to make life hell on earth. Never mind that it’s their way or the divorce highway. Never mind that the ‘more substance’ they have is mostly flab. And certainly never mind that divorce is what kills men early, and is a big reason why single men are shown to have shorter lives than married men do.

    And if another marriage isn’t in the cards, I guess us men will have to sadly golf and fish away our retirement, instead of happily working until we die. Please tell yourself that behind the contented smiles are men sobbing inside for lack of nagging. You will need this level of delusion as you go back to your loving and nurturing cats.

  54. Opus says:

    Yes, but what about all those single thirty-two year old women who are merely of average let alone less than average looks- hard to believe, I know, but true (unlike peace _hope _love 12, who is beautiful – do you hear that beautiful – and 32!). How cruel of men to prefer 23 year old women beautiful or not. Sadly my Q36B Hamsterlator is in for repairs following a recent disaster on another thread. Perhaps deti can help.

  55. greenlander says:

    Oh no, we have been shamed! Whatever shall we do!

    Oh noes! The shaming language!

    Run away! Run away!

  56. Feminist Hater says:

    Opus, I don’t think we need a translator here. She’s a bitter harpy who, at 32 with no marriage prospects, still thinks she’s ‘got it going on’. Best to leave it alone, let it stew in its own bile.

  57. Dalrock says:

    @Opus

    Sadly my Q36B Hamsterlator is in for repairs following a recent disaster on another thread. Perhaps deti can help.

    I hope he only feeds it a few sentences at a time if he attempts it at all. Even with the extra torque there is a limit to how much mere machines can handle. Internal contradictions are murder on hamsterlators and her comment is tightly packed with them. Crucial to hamsterlators is to map out as many of these irrational contradictions as possible upfront so they don’t smoke the gears:

    She is glad these bitter men aren’t paying attention to her because she is so beautiful (implies that she gets plenty of attention from more worthy men), but she is deeply bitter that they aren’t paying attention to her. She very much wants to marry and have a family, but she won’t feel like she missed out if she doesn’t. Men who don’t choose to give her marriage and a family however will one day come to bitterly regret not giving this to her. Men should avoid heartless young women and instead seek out kind hearted older gals like herself. And if they don’t, her kind heart wishes great cruelty on them. Men die younger than women, but they will end up old and alone if they don’t pick women like her now.

  58. deti says:

    You don’t even really need a hamsterlator for most of this. What is interesting to me is the completely unprompted comments confirming what this blog and others in the ‘sphere have been pointing out about many women.

    1. Looks do matter. Red and Lilabee come on here and complain that older men are not good looking enough for them. And younger men are better looking than older men.
    2. Red says men don’t want responsibility. Note the sense of entitlement. Red is 41 and expects a man to take responsibility — for HER.
    3. Red expects and wants younger, hotter, tighter men. She’s getting emails from men 10 years her junior on dating sites.
    4. Lilabee’s opinion is that the only older men (i.e. older than 30 or 35) worth dating are suave, smooth and good looking men who wear their age well. How’s that shallowness, lilabee?
    5. To women like lilabee, the only kind of attractiveness is PHYSICAL attractiveness. Looks is king.
    6. To the poster “me”, who is 19, the only men she dates will be under 25, because looks matter. We are all old, fat and ugly. (We’ll get you a green crayon for your next post, “me”.)
    7. PeaceHopeLove is a special snowflake and the world cannot handle her awesomely awesome awesomeness. There isn’t a man alive who could possibly meet her standards. And she wishes all of you men get assraped in divorce court, shrivel up, and die.

  59. deti says:

    This also indicates:

    Choice addiction. Red, Lilabee, “me” and PHL are basically saying they don’t want to date older men because that limits their choices, and they want to continue choosing as they did when they were at the height of their SMV power.

    Snowflaking. They are SPECIAL. They should not have to date icky older men.

    Shallowness, superficiality. They want only good looks.

    Entitlement. They are ENTITLED to date good looking men.

    Combat dating, treating dating as a war and dates as encounters with adversaries in which each seeks to extract as much as possible from the other while giving as little as possible in return.

    Extreme hypergamy. Only the very best for these women, and nothing less will do.

  60. sunshinemary says:

    Combat dating, treating dating as a war

    This is very, very sad because these ladies appear to be ruined for life in terms of being able to feel attraction that stems out of love. I read an old post of dalrock’s awhile back in which he’d been looking at a photo of his wife on her wedding day, and I think he said something to the effect that even though she’s older now, the way he sees her is still filtered through how she looked when she was very young. I thought about that a lot, and I realize this is true for a woman in how she views her husband, too. I’ve been bonded to my husband for a very long time, through good times and bad, and now he’s 44 and has grey hair and lines on his face, but when I look at him, man, he looks hot to me. He really does, I’m not just saying that, he totally turns me on. If I were a single, promiscuous female, would I feel this way? I’d probably be attracted to his paycheck. I feel sad for these ladies; they’ve missed out and I don’t think there is any going back.

  61. deti says:

    THat is a very important point. Women who have too many partners or get hurt too many times or spend too much time in combat dating do, I think, lose the ability to feel attraction for men who will stay with them long term. THey can lose the ability to feel anything other than base lust, I think.

    There is something wrong, and it needs to be repaired — if in fact it can be repaired and they are willing to allow it to be fixed. A few can be fixed. A few are so far gone they can’t be fixed. Most choose not to.

  62. Feminist Hater says:

    Deti, I would add that it ain’t even worth it to try and fix them. I’ve gotten to the point that it’s so tiring just to get through the rationalisations and that the best thing to do is to let them go like you would a fish that is too small.

    Let it find another hook somewhere down river.

  63. P Ray says:

    ^ Also, any attention you give an older woman who hasn’t proven herself worthy of it, is ignoring the suffering she has participated in towards men.
    It’s not a stretch to say that most of them had guys sincere with them that those women rejected for selfish and superficial reasons
    The biggest lie is of course Women are less shallow than men
    They continuously marry men taller than them. That’s why if I hear that line, I mentally write that girl off – too self-absorbed.

  64. Use barb-less hooks, its more humane

  65. Keoni Galt says:

    I always get a kick out of MEN who buy into and repeat the feminist trope of labeling normal male sexual attraction for young, fertile females as deviant.

    Whether your 30 or 70, if you have a healthy libido (aka you don’t need viagra to get a boner), the sight and smell of a young, beautiful, healthy and fertile, sexually mature female will cause natural arousal. That’s normal.

    It’s perfectly normal for a male, ANY male, with functional sperm in his balls and enough testosterone in his blood, to want to mate with a *gasp* sexually mature female (and yes, that could be a 14 year old!). Think that’s dirty or perverted? Have a look at any swimsuit section of any “Miss Teen” pageant.

    For example: http://www.pageantupdate.info/missteenusa2011/swimsuits.htm

    Any man with a healthy libido, regardless of age, would definitely have to admit he would be tempted by most of these young girls should they offer themselves to him…even knowing she’s only a teenager. If he says otherwise, he’s either lying, impotent or gay.

  66. Dalrock
    Please track clicks on that teen link and report back

  67. koevoet says:

    Dalrock
    No, please don’t!

  68. Keoni Galt says:

    lolzolzol

    Does pics of girls in bikini’s (no g-strings) require a NSFW warning?

    BTW, that was simply the #1 result for googling “Miss Teen USA Swimsuit”

  69. Will says:

    A lot of those teenagers look older than their age.

  70. Keoni Galt says:

    Trigger Warning for overly sensitive, humorless feminists: A joke I recall from the boys locker room in High School –

    If the field has grass….PLAY BALL!

  71. Feminist Hater says:

    If there’s grass on the wicket, let’s play cricket…

  72. P Ray says:

    @Keoni Galt:
    Thanks for that link. They’re certainly very attractive indeed.

  73. Keoni Galt says:

    You pervert.

  74. Stingray says:

    This is hysterical!

  75. To second SunshineMary’s comment, yes, if a man marries a woman when she is young, pretty and fresh, he always sees her with that image imprinted on his mind. In part of my mind, my wife is still the lissom brunette she was 25 years ago. No doubt that helps me find her appealing still.

    Men bond too.

  76. Opus says:

    Whatever the correct age of those women in the Miss Teen Swimsuit U.S.A. Pageant, they are clearly young. There is of course no equivalent competition for young men – at least none I have ever heard of. This thread, however, has a number of posts from women suggesting that what they want are younger, hotter, men – and me suggests that even the over 25s don’t cut it!; yet if that is really the case why are there no competitions enabling young men to show off their wares? – and, why has Hollywood, inexplictly, consistently failed to cast younger men as heroes and older women as heroines. Can Mr Goldwyn be so mistaken?

    Not that I am trying to suggest that there is not a certain section of the older females who do not lust after young boys: there clearly is a demand for adolescents and Gigolos; yet those older women who do seek out younger men and boys do seem to be the women who have missed out on finding a suitable man when they were young, and use their young lover as a way to broadcast that whereas you might have thought they were a bit past it, in fact they are much more youthful and desirable than you might have realised – you are as young as the boy you are feeling seems to be the message. Privately, however, everyone sniggers. We all know that the only way the woman was able to secure her young paramour was to drop every pretense of modesty and allow herself to be used by her young man as he might use a blow-up doll; any which way and whenever he chooses – and that should she make demands he will abandon her without a seconds remorse or concern – after all there are girls his age he can woo, and now he has the advantage of considerable experience of how to be a lover – you learn your cooking on old pans. An older woman with a younger man somehow seems like a lab experiment gone wrong: they have both made sub-par choices. Red Lilabee and me seems to think otherwise. PeaceHopeLove12 clearly wants to enter Miss Over 30s U.S.A. and is confident of success.

  77. Chachi says:

    My ex neighbor was a very young looking late 30s guy. Very vibrant, active, dynamic, creative, and popular with the ladies. He dated women in their early to mid 20s. He was determined to be engaged, if not married, by 40. Having children is very important to him. He complained that “women don’t want to have kids anymore, what’s up with that?” I told him, “sure they do, just not when they are 22. If you want to be married and a father by 41, try dating women who are at least 28.” Well he got himself a 20 year old liberal arts co-ed and of course after a year of living together she dumped him because she wasn’t ready to settle down. Now he’s post 40, let himself go and is starting to look his age. Its very doubtful he’ll be pulling 20 somethings any longer but he’ll be more likely to find a woman to have his kids than when he was dynamic and vibrant and attracting dynamic and vibrant young women with their whole lives ahead of them. Nobody wants to have kids at that stage in their life.

  78. Lavazza says:

    “Nobody wants to have kids at that stage in their life.”

    As somebody says you’re not marrying a woman, you are marrying a culture. So a good wife and mother has to be very counter culture in the most parts of the West. The question is if it possible to give your children their rightful opportunity to grow up in a healthy environment, if you have them with an old women who is embracing our mainstream culture or even its avant-garde.

  79. Chachi says:

    Lavazza, my ex-neighbor is Latino and hiked through the Amazon, went to Latin America several times, so he had access to women from other cultures too. It was very hard for him to find a woman in her early-mid 20s that he connected with that wanted to get married and have kids. Sure, any number of poverty stricken favela girls may have jumped at the chance to marry some American man they never met before who would bring them to the land of milk, honey and bling-bling, but like most men, he wants to fall in love with someone compatible and have that person fall in love back.

  80. K.B. says:

    I am going to be really honest here… I just turned 49, I am well educated (Harvard), I go to the gym, I have a good sense of humor, raised and amazing child. I am single now and face the fact that I will most likely never find another relationship. I find that prospect as disappointing as the comments I just read, because I still have fun, go out, act ridiculously, and am a really decent person. But non of that seems to matter.

  81. The Duke from Italy says:

    well.. here follows my possible reasons:

    1) if you have to put the same work up to date a woman, choose younger
    2) if you have to work up more to date an older woman with huge check list, choose younger
    3) if you have to date a woman who looks only after her nature call, choose younger
    4) if you know that you live in a femminazi country against men, choose younger
    5) if you wish to have your family and YOUR KIDS, choose younger
    6) if you want to have a less used vagina, choose younger
    7) if you want to have fun today, and few worries about tomorrow, choose younger
    8) if you “may” change your mind about marriage, choose younger
    9) if you know that marriage is women business, choose younger
    10) if you want a beautiful body, sincere smile and great sex, choose younger
    11) if you like 100% fat/plastic free female body, choose younger
    12) if you like to spend fair amount of money to date a women, choose younger
    13) if you want to stay single once you beat the 40ties, choose younger
    14) if you are rich, of course you choose younger
    15) if you don’t want to be a beta provider, choose younger

    Last, but not least.. if you want to revenge against those cunts who didn’t saw you when you was a good man, choose younger!

  82. deti says:

    Read K.B’s post:
    “I am going to be really honest here… I just turned 49, I am well educated (Harvard), I go to the gym, I have a good sense of humor, raised and amazing child. I am single now and face the fact that I will most likely never find another relationship. I find that prospect as disappointing as the comments I just read, because I still have fun, go out, act ridiculously, and am a really decent person. But non of that seems to matter.”

    Couple of things here:

    I don’t want to pick on her, but I find a few things fascinating. First is this constant perseveration by women on their educational and intellectual characteristics as being attractive to men. For the love of Pete, how many times does this need to be said? A woman’s attractive traits are her looks/physical appearance, and then her youth. After that the comfort traits men look for are loyalty and good character (i.e. she will stay with him; she is honest and truthful, she is kind, cheerful and good natured, not bitchy, not caustic, not mean-spirited, not pessimistic).

    Men honestly do not care — DO NOT CARE — about a woman’s educational pedigree or her IQ when it comes to attraction. Perhaps I find your Harvard degree interesting. But it is NOT attractive. Repeat: A woman with a Harvard degree is interesting, but NOT attractive.

    K.B., perhaps a man doesn’t want to date or try to get into a relationship with a 49 year old single mother who “acts ridiculously”, is focused on “hav[ing] fun” and a life centered on “go[ing] out.”

    Second, this continues to prove up that a single older woman’s sex life looks a lot like a young single man’s sex life. Let’s rephrase her paragraph as if spoken by a 22 year old man.

    “I’m going to be real honest here… I just turned 22, I am well educated and have a good job earning about $50,000 a year. I keep myself in shape, I have my own place and my own car that I pay for myself. I’m good looking and smart and I treat women with the utmost respect. I approach and ask women out, but I can’t get anything. All I hear from women is how I’m such a nice guy and they all want to be my friend, but they don’t want to date me. I am facing the fact that I may never have any kind of a long term relationship with any woman, much less get married and have a family. I have money, I can support a family, and am a really decent person. But none of that seems to matter.”

    What do you think about that, K.B.?

  83. farm boy says:

    Deti nails it

  84. The good news for the 22 year old is that he’ll get older and will have a chance to get wiser as opposed to his corollary.

    The other bad news for her is that she is a single older mother, which not only undermines the attraction traits but points to a possible absence of “comfort traits”. Did she try to hook an alpha with a pregnancy, did she get bored with a beta and frivorce him? These are questions potential LTR partners are going to have an increasing difficulty in ignoring.

  85. K.B. says:

    Dear Deti,

    Thank you for taking the time to respond to my comment, I always appreciate hearing another’s opinion. It sounds like you work hard and have a lot going for you, I wish you all the best.
    K.B

  86. deti says:

    I art:

    Yep. The single older mom’s best case scenario is getting another beta provider, 50+, and divorced but still with enough assets that they can pool resources and have a bit of a happy life. More likely, such women are pump and dump fodder or STR material. The good looking ones become cougars, good for a little fun and “act[ing] ridiculously”. The vast majority, unfortunately, fade into sexual invisibility and post divorce spinsterhood. They get no sexual attention at all.

    Karma’s a bitch.

  87. Feminist Hater says:

    At least she has the feminist merit badge. You go grllllll!

  88. Feminist Hater says:

    Yep. The single older mom’s best case scenario is getting another beta provider…

    Or a couple cats.

  89. deti says:

    KB:

    I think the irony of my comment might have been lost on you. My point is that the dilemma you wrote of in your comment as an older divorced woman is very much the same as that faced by young single career-minded men.

    Let me lay this out for you. These young men did what their parents, teachers, scout leaders, pastors, and others in authority over them said would make them attractive to women: They follow the rules. They went to school and did well. They got training, educations, and jobs. They work their asses off to provide for themselves. They prepared themselves for marriage and to become husbands and fathers. They take women out for “dinner and a movie” dates, routinely dropping upwards of $100.

    And what do they get in return? Average, overweight, entitled women turning up their noses, sneering at their romantic overtures and coldly rejecting them. They see alpha asshat douchebags having sex with most of the women. They are routinely told “let’s just be friends”. They face a 90% rejection rate when approaching women or chatting them up.

    Let me give you some unsolicited advice.

    1. Do all you can to improve your physical appearance. Keep going to the gym. Keep your weight down, your hair long and your makeup on.

    2. Lower your standards. There is no way in hell an attractive man with options will do any more with or for you than give you a place in his rotating harem. He certainly will not marry you. You will be expected to put out immediately and often. You are history the moment you hassle him or shit test him or annoy him in any way. Younger men in their 40s would be fine with dating you long term but marriage is probably out of the question. And they will expect frequent sex too. Any never married men over 50 won’t wife you up — these are the men with options or MGTOWs probably looking for something short term. These men aren’t going to wife up a 49 YO single mother.

    Your best bet for another relationship is an older man in his 50s, probably divorced. As above, a never-married man isn’t going to turn over a new leaf and marry.

    3. Focus on what you have to offer the relationship. And those advantageous points are not your Harvard degree, your going out and acting “ridiculously”. Men don’t care about your education — not because it’s intimidating, but because it’s irrelevant. Moreover, your thrill seeking “acting ridiculously” indicates a woman of high impulsivity, attention seeking, drama/excitement seeking, and dopamine addiction. Chances are such conduct is what ended the 50+ divorced man’s first marriage. Not exactly a selling point.

    Here is what older men look for in an LTR/second marriage:

    1. She cooks, cleans, keeps house.
    2. She is done with high excitement/drama/thrill seeking/ultrahypergamy.
    3. She brings much to the table in the relationship. She is an asset to him.
    4. She asks “what can I do for you” not “what can you do for me”
    5. She is sexually available.

    Take it FWIW, KB.

  90. K.B. says:

    Hi there,
    I promise, nothing was lost on me. I agree that love, relationship, family…are all challenging at any age. I am a little taken aback by the undercurrent of the conversation, and not looking to engage in or egg on anything bitter and / or nasty. I am not angry at men, I like men…just trying to understand them a bit more. P.S. I don’t own a cat

  91. K.B. says:

    Before you make another comment about me, I thought a couple of facts might be more useful than assumption. I was married for over 20 years, it ended in a friendly manner, I didn’t ask for alimony, and never will. I work and have my own cash. I am not a feminist, man-hater, or any other stereo type that pops into mind. I am not looking for marriage, on the hunt for your paycheck, or a free meal. I don’t need you to hold my hand, or raise my child, I ‘ve already done that. I have been single for about 2 years and am just starting to be interested in looking around and seeing what’s out there. This article caught my attention and I made a comment, simple as that. Well, I am off to run some errands, so I am just going to hop on my broom, hope I don’t trip over my vagina on the way out. :-)

  92. Feminist Hater says:

    …hope I don’t trip over my vagina on the way out.

    Is it that big?

    Here’s a list from Anon E Myshkin for the number of cats you need.

    How Many Cats Should I Have?
    (version for women)

    start at 2
    did you have a pet cat as a child? (add 1)
    did you grow up in a single mom family? (add 1)
    did you lose your virginity while a minor? (add 2)
    were you sodomized while a minor? (add 2)
    are you over 40 years old? (add 1)
    are you post menopausal? (add 1)
    have you ever pulled a train? (add 3)
    have you ever been married? (subtract 1)
    do any of your children live with you? (reset to 2)
    do you cohabitate with a man? (reset to 1)
    are you married? (ask your husband for the answer)
    are you married with no husband? (does not compute)

  93. deti says:

    KB:

    Your comments were interesting. I see a parallel between the complaints of older single women and younger single men — the problem of sexual invisibility. I posit that older married women don’t know how good they have it, and so they torpedo perfectly good marriages in the thought that either (1) a better man will come along; or (2) they just can’t bear the thought of being with the men who stayed with them; or (3) they just don’t like their men; or never liked them in the first place.

    I accused you personally of nothing. But I might suggest you examine that whole “acting ridiculously” thing. What does that mean? Do you believe that will attract men to you? When I hear of women going out and acting ridiculously, it conjures up images of past-their-prime women slutting it up in bars with their college age daughters or wearing clothes two sizes too small or dancing to “Back in Black” at the local bar or cougaring it up with the local college student contingent.

  94. K.B. says:

    Hmm… ok, I think that will do it for me. After what I said, the only thing you grab on to is a joke at the end? Not that I have worked hard, am independent, not out to get you… I hope that at some point you will realize that not all women are money-grubbing hags – whores – bitches. I am going to unsubscribe to the conversation, I v’e seen enough.

  95. K.B. says:

    Deti… I am 49 how ridiculous do you think I can be? I snuck mini bottles of wine into the movie and went to a happy hour with a friend from work…she’s 68, we made quite the pair. Bye

  96. deti says:

    @ KB:

    I accused you of nothing. I used your comment as a springboard to make a larger point about the SMP and to give you a bit of advice. That advice merely pointed out your position and the position of others like you in the SMP. I did not call you any names. I did not call you a whore or a bitch, nor did I say that about women in general. I did not accuse you of anything.

    If the “acting ridiculously” statement was a joke, OK. You might make that clear next time. Men here have up close and personal, real world experience with middle aged women, most of them married, acting “ridiculously”. In the context of your original comment it certainly sounded like you sowing some wild oats that had yet to be harvested.

    Words mean things, KB. We take people at their word here. If you don’t mean it, don’t say it. If you say it, we presume you mean it. We examine context for meaning, and we presume words have their ordinary, everyday, commonly-understood meanings and definitions.

  97. deti says:

    I am going to make this observation: I expected better expository writing and clarity of language and thought from a Harvard graduate.

  98. Lad says:

    fwiw, if K.B is 49, that means she came of age in the early 80s and is at the very tail end of the baby boomer era. Many more people were following the traditional marriage script in 1985 than they are now.

    I’m not anywhere close to 50 myself, but I would guess that the number one thing I would want from a female companion at that age, besides sex, would be a pleasant and generally cheerful personality. Housecleaning and cooking are only important insofar as they complement a shared desire for a particular lifestyle. I would want someone I genuinely enjoyed spending time with. I’d phrase it “undemanding” rather than “what can I do for you.”

  99. Lad says:

    btw I don’t blame her for checking out. That wasn’t a conversation that was a one-sided rant with her as an example.

  100. Starviolet says:

    Lol. Plenty of older women get remarried. I don’t think that I would assume that the worst case scenario would automatically apply to KB and I don’t think it is helpful to her to assume that either. My aunt just married her 4th husband at 55. And yes she divorced the first 3 and had no trouble replacing them. I think that it behooves everyone to be aware of general trends in the marriage market, but as individuals our mileage will vary.

  101. deti says:

    Lad
    Who was ranting?

    I think her comment exposed several aspects of the sexual marketplace that aren’t often talked about. Her comment also pointed out some common misconceptions women have about their own attractiveness. I used it to point out those misconceptions and did express some frustration that women (wrongly) think their educational level or pedigree increases their attractiveness. It does not. (She did, after all, come here touting her Harvard education — the clear import being that she should be attractive to men because of that world class pedigree.)

    She made some cryptic statements in her original comment. She could explain, justify or defend them. I wondered what the “act[ing] ridiculously” comment meant. I was hoping she might explain it. she eventually did. Such comments mean different things to different people, especially in these parts, where the worst of female behavior is discussed and explained.

  102. deti says:

    Star:

    Your aunt is an outlier. She is either the sweetest woman ever or she is built like Sophia Loren.

    I’m pretty confident in saying that most 55 year old thrice-divorced women might have a pretty tough time finding someone to sign up to be no. 4.

  103. ybm says:

    No Deti you misunderstand, No man anywhere is allowed to have any opinions at any time and must at all times live in a pit of abject sadness with no option of escape so that when hunny bunny hops off the DJ the man is beaten down like a dog to the point he will take whatever he can get.

    This is the worldview of starviolet and of anglo-american women.

  104. Chris says:

    YBM, Feminist ideology states “No man is allowed to have any opinions at any time…”
    Corrected it for you.
    Of course, feminist ideology has as much congruence to reality as the LSD based hallucinations of L Ron Hubbard.

  105. an observer says:

    Deti

    There is little point in arguing rationally.

    Solipsism proves the point. Star’s aunt did it, so there!

    What more proof do we need?

  106. It behooves everyone to be aware of the trends in marriage market?
    OK Star, thanks.
    Yes, of all the gangs of men you could bring that annoying-as-calliope message to this is the one you can be sure know that the marriage market is literally the E Tae Won market for women in the US

  107. I’m 60, and if I were single, I would only date “frivolously”. As Diane Lane’s character’s father said to her in ‘Must Love Dogs’: “I’ve already had the love of my life. All I want now is a few laughs with some cute ladies.”

    Now, I’m aware that I am not as physically attractive as I was 35 years ago, but my standards wouldn’t be as high. When I look out at what is available from the secure vantage point of my long-term marriage, there aren’t a lot of physically attractive women out there. If I couldn’t land one of them, I’d just as soon go fishing.

    I wouldn’t care about degrees or accomplishments,

  108. Julia says:

    What men sometimes forget is that people age differently. it doesn`t matter if body or mind. I know 25 year old women who look like 35 and have a hard time getting pregnant. Sometimes you can not really tell if a woman is over thirty.It mainly depends on her Lifestyle. Yes i know it`s about the number. I am 31 years old and look like 24 years old.
    Though before you pay too much attention to her age rather look how she treats her body. Does she eat healthy? Does she smoke etc? If you have a hot 23 year old but she only eats cakes and fast food then you may have the surprise when she is by the end of her twenties. Health is beauty. And nothing else. It doesn`t matter if at age twenty or forty.Same for you guys.

  109. deti says:

    Julia:

    The world needs more like you! Yes, this is right. If a woman takes care of herself she can stave off aging for years. But, you’re ignoring female fertility and childbirth. Better for a woman to have finished childbirth by her early 30s, I think. After that risks of infertility and birth defects increase.

  110. Flaming Man of Iron says:

    Deti, I got married at 22 (now 28) because I sort of saw the way the winds were blowing in the secular marriage market. I live in one of the most Christian towns in Canada as a religious NON-Christian. I was ruled out by such women as a Baha’i, which I found sad, since i didn’t see being Christian as a turn off, but what’s a guy to do?

    Secular women weren’t interested in marriage. I saw in 2006 that in my expected career path as a Statistician, that I’d get lots of interest from 20 somethings in the future: Nice guy, smart, charming, attractive – if you overlook that he’s going bald already and only 5’7″.

    What did I do? I turned to the internet, there was a Baha’i singles site. I got married through that within 6 months. Smaller, niche dating sites might be better than the really big ones. I got off the market as fast as I could. My wife is 1.5 yrs old than I am. There is some interest from women in their mid 20s (50% are married by… 26 or so) so you may want ot date women a few years older. Some days I wonder if I should have held out longer for a better looking, less health issue prone wife… And while I’m sure I could find such a woman, I doubt she’d marry me in this day and age.

    (Background: Wife told me about being diabetic and mental health issues before I got married. Just didn’t know HOW big of a deal that was. Pregnancy triggered all sorts of problems for her. Also only having 3 kids instead of my ideal 6. Stay AWAY, AWAY from women with health problems of any kind. You’re too young to settle for that. I don’t care how desperate you are.)

    Also:
    -Learn how to Flirt and establish your interest in them in a non threatening/creepy way. There are endless varients of Game being talked about/shown out there. Learn one of the variants for finding and keeping a woman.
    - If you don’t already have any, find some after work interests outside of a bar. Volunteer at a charity, get politically active, or join some kind of hobby association that isn’t a sausage party.
    -Learn to dance: I recommend getting into swing or ballroom dancing. Much classier than the club scene.
    - Don’t focus on getting sex. Remember, nailing tons of women makes it harder for YOU to bond with a new wife TOO. It seems to get forgotten by the discussions on here.
    -Absolutely never “move in” with a woman first. It’s how to waste years of your life on a woman who doesn’t want to commit. If they’re serious, they’ll marry you.

    For anyone who thought: “WTF is a Baha’i?” have a look at wikipedia’s entry:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bah%C3%A1%27%C3%AD_Faith

  111. deti says:

    Good comment Iron. I have to agree that a lot of men my age (mid 40s) on down have had this attitude that they have to settle and that the women should do all the selecting. It’s just not true, and the tide seems to be turning.

    Agree that men should be much, much more selective about the women they seriously consider for marriage. The following women should probably be excluded:

    1. Women more than two years older than he is.
    2. Any chronic health problems (diabetes, thyroid, GI problems, etc.)
    3. Past history of mental health problems or addiction.
    4. Takes maintenance medications. (e.g. If she’s in her early 20s and is already on anticholesterol medication or high blood pressure meds, what does that say about her health?)
    5. Obese women.
    6. History of any kind of STD.
    7. Sexual history of N>10 (this is just my opinion. Opinions on a woman’s premarital N vary widely. Most say N should be far less than 10 or should be 0).
    8. Has money problems. Has a lot of student or consumer debt, or just always seems to be broke.
    9. Has risk-taking, thrill-seeking hobbies (motorcycle riding, skydiving, extreme sports, etc.)

  112. Honesty is the best policy says:

    Fact- Younger women do not like older men, these men are old, aged and saggy bodies like women their age *but they delude themselves by thinking they are still young and have a mid life crisis* over 50 unless they are desperate for financial reasons and status. Many women are more younger and beautiful longer and look younger than men their age as women are looking after themselves and going to gym more and taking care of themselves through diet and healthy eating.

  113. Male26 says:

    I prefer women close to my own age.

  114. deti says:

    Honesty:

    Some women fit the description you give. Probably depends a lot on location and SES. Higher SES women on the coasts and in major cities probably fit this description. Many women in outlying areas, smaller towns and cities don’t fit this description at all.

    I’ve been noticing women for the better part of 30 years now in the midwest. At least around here, women are heavier, bitchier and more stressed out than they were 30 years ago. On average they have higher Ns from years of sluttery. As a group, women are simply less attractive in every way.

    For a young woman, the number one thing she can do to increase her attractiveness is to stay at or near her ideal weight.

    The second thing she needs to do is not get knocked up. No matter how that ends up, it will screw her up. If she has the baby, she’s a single mom. If she gets an abortion, she has to deal with all the issues that go with that, and she’ll be dealing with that for decades. She’ll have to explain it to every subsequent sex partner and her future husband. Her husband has a right to know her sexual history, including past pregnancies and how they ended.

    The third thing she needs to do is not get an STD.

    In other words:

    Don’t get fat.
    Don’t get pregnant.
    Don’t get crudded up.

  115. @Honesty – I have dated / courted a couple of 40+ women who have taken care of themselves physically (as have I), have careers, and very educated.
    Here is a casual observation: their emotional, mental, and spiritual health was no where near their physical health. They were “emotionally burnt toast” and no fun to be around.
    There is a reason why men prefer younger women besides their age.
    Shalom

  116. Martian Bachelor says:

    Bachelor #2: “I’d say the allure is that younger women are less judgmental and less set in their ways. They don’t have a laundry list of what they want in a partner, a career or even life just yet.”

    Reminds me of something H.L. Mencken long ago wrote: “the average woman is not strategically capable of bringing down the most tempting game within her purview, and must thus content herself with a second, third, or nth choice. The only women who get their first choices are those who run in almost miraculous luck, and those too stupid to formulate an ideal — two very small classes, it must be obvious.” (emphasis mine)

    By making women stupid (younger ones especially), or at least much more confused about what they want, feminism has made great strides on solving the problem of the shortage with the second class.

  117. Joe P says:

    I had hair money a house and a car in my 20′s and I couldn’t get anything which meant I grabbed at anything I could get and was obsessive. I managed to avoid marriage only through a couple of well timed job relocations and a cancelled project which meant I caught my planned wife in bed with her new engagement ring in my pocket.

    As I entered my 40s the doors opened and I went from sleeping from 9 people in my whole life to 10 in a year , 9 of them between the ages of 21 and 32. While I’ve eased off since then I have found the best dating age to be late 20s or early 30s women because they are self aware without being scarred, they still have decent bodies and looks and they understand the rules of the game without being bitter and angry. I never date anyone under 25 for anything more than a one nighter because they have no idea who they are or what they want while pretending they know everything.

  118. Male26 says:

    “An early 20s girl is hotter than a 30+ year old woman, PERIOD.”

    Opinion is opinion till proven as fact.

  119. sue says:

    Wow, reading all this anger and bitterness is such a surprise for me. I am 52, size 4,yet curvy, have my own income from a business i own and just started dating again a year ago. My husband I married when i was 17 i loved dearly and he passed after a long and brave battle with cancer.I
    i was afraid to date since i never have really and this world seemed like a cruel place– a couple of years later i started to date and was so pleasantly surprised at the number of men of all ages who approached me—and the few ones i went out with were so very nice and treated me so sweet and respectful—yet made their attraction known–there are many many good men out there who do want relationships. I may not have what you know as baggage (except maybe some sadness, but i keep it in my heart–and my husband and i had time to do our bullet list and talk frankly about life and death–something I am forever grateful for)–and i could not have children that was never a physical option so i did not feel a biological clock (thank goodness my husband had a child–he was 7 years older– before me and he was happy with one child—and grandchildren :)both who i love dearly. I have since met a man a year younger than i who is very alpha and handsome—and very nice and funny (funny is important!) He has asked to marry but I can’t bring myself to that point…and i think he understands i am loyal (i met him soon after starting to date and he asked for exclusiveness which i happily gave—i am glad he found a way into my heart before i became involved physically with other men)….I am sorry for this long post. What I am trying to say to my counterparts—male and female—is there are so many good people out there who want love (and sex is a big part of that) so just be yourself with an open heart and mind and enjoy life as it is so short and so sweet—and love will find you—you do not have to hunt for it—respect yourself and others and always love yourself and be the best you can and be supportive of other humans who are just trying to live life the best they can—and find peace in your heart. All this anger and bitterness will eat you like a black hole if you allow it….I hope you all find the happiness you are looking for….

  120. Lara says:

    Bravo Sue. I am approaching that 40-50 bracket and am a size 2 – go to concerts, run in marathons, work out 2 hours a day, run my own business – I am more active and feel great in a bikini as much as I did when I was 20. I am married with 2 small kids. I know 3 men who I am close friends to – whom are single and in the 40-50 age bracket. All three would love to get married and tend to date women too young for them – because the available women in their age group are few. That is the MAIN REASON. There is a small population of women and men who are divorced or never married or widowed – and they are fun loving, active, seeking-love people – but as time goes on, that pool of people gets smaller. It’s just how it is. The three men I know who are middle aged and single – are active, good looking and successful. THEY WOULD ALL LOVE to find a women in their age bracket who was active and fun. There just are not many. They flirt with me shamelessly but I know its just they have few women they can relate with. When age 55, my mom was having to pick between 2 marriage proposals. She was a firey, fun loving gal who liked to do things – into life – into LIVING. I think men are attracted to living women not dead women. And for the record, me too. I like men who are ALIVE not dead as well – LOL. I think being middle aged and single must be SO DIFFICULT for those who want to meet people. So I would not bag on them. On the other hand, if you are middle aged and want a mate – maybe focus on things that get you excited about LIFE and you will attract someone to you.

  121. tony says:

    Sue…you go girl…oops old girl…young women>older women..

  122. perspective says:

    Most of the comments and posts on this site related to age and dating are pretty interesting. I ‘ve read a lot about how men in their 40′s and 30′s prefer women in their 20′s, but what about men in their 50′s and 60′s who are either divorced, widowed, or that just never married and are looking for marriage or an ltr? Do they too perceive women in their 30′s and 40′s as past their prime (in spite of being 20-30 yrs their senior) or do these women seem young in comparison to these mens’ age groups? Or would they try to seriously date and/or marry 20 something women if they found women in this age group who were willing? I’m not asking for myself, I really am just curious.

  123. ChickenDippaz says:

    If i could choose between a hawt 18 yo and a hawt 28 yo, i would pick the 28 yo

  124. Flip says:

    I think IQ actually matters quite a lot for a woman you are considering having children with. I read that there’s a theory that intelligence is largely inherited from your mother, although I don’t think that based on my family’s history.

  125. Princess25 says:

    I think that younger women have more issues if they’re intelligent and beautiful. Friendships are strained into jealously with other females, males become insecure. Older women usually have calmness about them and comfort about their identities, which would make better relationship material. Men who are older and go for younger females such as myself, thinking that that can have more power and thus a relationship on their own terms, don’t realise they’re in for a rollercoaster of emotions and sorts. Also, some younger women expect older men to like having their income sapped from them like a maple syrup tree. I think it’s best to date closer to the age group for development, and then you’re both young enough to grow habits together, and be flexible enough to have it last.

  126. Princess25 says:

    I think that older men want to find a beautiful, loyal and caring woman and are upset that have not spent most of their life with their ideal woman. They are aging, and think that they have another chance with a younger female. Infatuation may be confused with love, and often happens with men. They become increasingly bitter, especially because older women seem to be more wise and emotionally careful about infatuation. I am only in my early 20′s, trying to learn how to control my feelings of infatuation, since it developed in high school. I find older men to be charming and lovely to a certain extent, although like most other young women, an attractive young man claims the most attention. One was in the library, looking like a Classical Greek God with muscles, and a face like the David sculpture in Italy. This young doctor later told me that I was so beautiful that I distracted him from his research, and later had to take a sleeping pill as he saw me in his dreams. I had to slap myself in the face as I have feelings for an older man in his 30′s even though he is on the slightly banal side of life in comparison.

  127. Princess25 says:

    CORRECTION: i MEANT “WITHOUT THEIR IDEAL WOMAN…NOT WITH”

    HAHAHA

  128. FuriousFerret says:

    “Men who are older and go for younger females such as myself, thinking that that can have more power and thus a relationship on their own terms, don’t realise they’re in for a rollercoaster of emotions and sorts.”

    Men go for younger women because they are hot and their soul hasn’t being twisted into a black pretzel. You know strike that, MEN go for younger women because they are hot. That’s part of the problem, everybody is competing for the same pool of women and since women will slut it up without commitment, you have to be alpha as a young guy to have a chance.

    Standard advice for young woman such as yourself, only sleep with commitment. If you put out because ‘it just happened’ be prepared to be the town bicycle and be pumped and dumped into oblivion.

    “Older women usually have calmness about them and comfort about their identities, which would make better relationship material. ”

    Older women that are single or divorced are often times the most vile creatures on earth. You do not want to become one of these women. They hate everything, are annoying, demanding and their soul has been twisted. Marry young and stay away from the cock caroseul and you will be gold.

  129. Princess25 says:

    Thanks for the advice, it was actually quite helpful.

  130. Princess25 says:

    So, I am curious…..
    If a young female such as myself marry young, then who it best? A male that is around my own age or someone who is older? I am confused on this issue of mine….hance leading me to these kinds of sites

  131. sue says:

    Having married at 17 to a boy 23 I had a beautiful 32 years before he passed of cancer—after mourning a couple years I started dating and have found many many wonderful men of all ages who would like commitment and am now exclusive with one (the only one other than my husband) it is true that men do not seem to have respect for women who sleep around alot, but have no problem with men that do—what is this double standard? I do not understand why men prize women with few partners and yet have no problem if THEY have multiple partners. I would say marry young, and no more 5-6 years older or you will be burying him and thats not fun. Older men are often looking to younger women to be their caretakers eventually—be careful and remain financially independent! .

  132. Hooper says:

    Most of these answers are pure unadulterated crap. The reasons that older men date younger women are twofold. 1. Fertility. Sex is about procreation whether you are consciously willing to acknowledge it or not. 2. Because we can.

  133. ChickenDippaz says:

    Good luck with dating young women when you are middle-aged and bald. LOL
    Oh wait, I forgot…. us men we age like fiiine wine. Not.

  134. sue says:

    1.Most older men I know have grown kids and do not want more kids—and of those that do they are worn out mommies rather than men at end of day with mommies for wives rather than lovers.
    2. Why do women date younger men? Because we CAN—and DO!

  135. Magsurf says:

    Looks do matter to a lot of people. There’s no denying this. It is usually the first thing that attracts. I think both men and women should make an effort to take care of themselves. You’d be surprise how good you can still look if you do.

  136. Rana says:

    I ‘m 45 and married to a 33 year old man.I’m thrilled he values me as a complete person,instead of just overlooking me for a younger woman.I don’t look anywhere near my age which has given me some problems with American men.As soon as they find out my age,they go running.The number of years means too much to these men,and I couldn’t care less because I don’t need an ego-centric,selfish American man if one fell out of the sky delivered from Heaven.

    I would suggest to American women finding it difficult in America,to look elsewhere.Go international because there’s men from other countries who do not care about age but
    more about who you are as a person.Leave these self obsorbed jerks behind.

  137. Ezekiel Wheeler says:

    I’m one of those old fat guys, I’m 42 bald and gray and date whomever I please. My new GF is 27, the last was 29, the one before that 52, Then 48, and 48, again, 25, and 42… since July, and not counting the 47 that comes and goes inbetween. Younger woman generally have less crap to deal with, but older ones are, ah, more fun since you don’t have to train them to do everything. Except for the 52 they’re all BBWs which is what I’M into. For some unknown reason to me I get several skinny woman in their 20s and 30s that like me for… who knows why? I don’t date them though, just no interest. Maybe it’s because I play not so good in a crappy band?

    I think it’s maybe attitude, I’m ugly as homemade sin but never have a shortage of woman. They might not be on the cover of Playboy, but there have always been plenty of them, not that I’m exactly good looking myself. You know what though? I can show them a good time, and do it inexpensively since being a band guy means you don’t exactly roll in the dough.

  138. Chris says:

    I have a dilemma I would like some input if you will. I’m 36 and have never dated. In my school days I was always half of my classmates. I sometimes get mistaken for a college freshmen and in some cases, a teenager. I keep hearing that I can’t date anyone younger than 24 according to the age formula, but what do I do when I look young for a 24 y/o?
    I like to ask girls I meet if they would consider me as a possible boyfriend, and usually they just say they prefer older guys. When I ask how old, the answer is around 10 years younger than me. I know a girl at my church who is almost 20, and she has shown a slight hint of the possibility of at least friend-zoning me, which would, believe it or not, be a huge improvement in my love life.
    My mother said my grandparents were married at 18 and 33, and it was a wonderful relationship. Do you think the same/similar could work for me? Because it’s nearly impossible to find a 26+ that is interested in this kid right here.

  139. Looking Glass says:

    @Chris:

    I was going to make a joke about a Steroid Cycle, but how’s your response to stress? If you look that young @ age 36, I’d be a little concerned about the body’s ability to produce cortisol.

    The first thing to do, though, is simply change your appear, if you think you look too young. Facial hair, lift weights, better style clothes. Then, next trick: stop letting others know you care. :) Live. Do things. Don’t fret about life past what’s necessary. Then invite women along. If they choose to join you, great. If not, go and have a good life. That’ll solve most of the issues.

    Oh, and stop listening to your mother about relationship advice. She means well, but she’s straight up wrong about the topic. The 18/33 split is probably from pre-WW2. That isn’t applicable anymore, though 10 year splits aren’t uncommon these days.

  140. Max says:

    @Chris

    I also am curious just how tall you are? You don’t mention it, but I ask just out of curiousity. I’m 5’7″ and definitely had some women pass me over, but there were still plenty of fish in the sea.

    What I’m curious about is, what are you actually DOING to meet women? Take up ballroom dancing, that’s a great way to have fun and meet some women. Or if there’s some volunteer work you’ve always thought about doing, do that. Get out and start interacting with people more.

    +1 on weightlifting. Try out bodybuilding,com or abcbodybuilding.com for some great advice on getting started if you don’t already work out. Bulking up can add some serious alpha to your frame.

    Frankly, the other thing is: Get a therapist. Getting a love life of some kind is not that hard for the bulk of the populace. I would be $$ you have something in your history giving you some serious hangups in your confidence and self esteem.

  141. Marie says:

    I am a 24 year old woman. The hostility on these blogs towards women is shocking. It is disconcerting to know that men gobble up women in their early twenties, treat them like shit (that is equating all their human value with their sexual utility), a psychologically damaging process which deprives women of confidence and warps their sense of identity, ultimately rendering them insecure, and then, after women are beaten around and used up, condemn them for the types of emotional behaviors they exhibit based on their experiences. Female experience here is shown NO compassion on behalf of the people who primarily shape it. If women were instead taught their human value was not solely made up of their sexual utility, their self-identities would be stronger, they wouldn’t think they ‘needed’ a man to financially support them, and would happily pursue careers/hobbies as forms of self-fulfillment, just as men do.

    It seems like men, in wanting to view women solely for their sexual utility, will cause any amount of emotional damage to get their way, then toss the damaged woman down in favor of a fresher, more youthful victim.

    I dated an older man when I was 22, but left that ‘fling’ to pursue a more balanced and healthy relationship of equals with someone my age. I hope that my boyfriend does not, based on the powerful access society grants him to sexualize women, abuse this power by morphing into a woman-hating fucker of college students later on in life. Men have a lot of power to treat women how they want, and it is saddening, just like it’s sad to see how politicians and economists and other people in positions of power, abuse these powers to dehumanize those who stand in the way of their complete and unreasonable satisfaction of their personal desires. Dehumanizing women isn’t good for men or women. It isn’t good for society. It’s final outcome is animosity and violence between the sexes (cynicism, divorce, rape)…Men and women no longer trust each other, and are represented as valuing each other only for sex or money… demonstrates a complete break down of social trust.

    If you want women to be ‘good women’ capable of understanding male value beyond his financial utility, women need to be treated and respected as ‘good women’ – that is beyond their ability to fuck and produce children.

  142. Opus says:

    It is pricesless to be lectured by a woman (Marie at 09.36 am) about how ‘on these blogs’ – though she is not precise as to which blogs she is referring to – ‘men gobble up women in their early twenties’ to then learn in her third paragraph that as recently as two years ago she too gobbled up an ‘older man’ by treating her relationship with him as ‘a fling’ but abandoned him for someone younger, with the rationalisation that dating someone of her own age provides a ‘more balanced and healthy relationship’. One wonders why she was attracted to the older man in the first place – other than for the pleasure of pumping and dumping him.

    This is the thread that keeps on giving.

  143. Flaming Man Of Iron says:

    Marie,

    Dalrock’s blog is not a PUA blog. His point is that women don’t understand their sexual market value in their 20s, and still think they can pull the men they got in their 20s well into their late 30s. When that doesn’t happen, they are deeply butthurt over it. His point is that yes, women DO devalue themselves and their marriage prospects by sleeping around.

    Arguably, so do men, which is a point that isn’t raised. Quality women who haven’t slept around typically don’t want a man who’s slept around either.

  144. deti says:

    Marie:

    The entire reason blogs like this exist is that men in their 20s did not gobble up women or use them for sex. The only women most men reading here saw were ones in magazines or on websites. The men you’re talking about “gobbling” up women and using them are ATTRACTIVE men with options.

    Let me fix this for you. Here’s what women are really saying, I think.

    “It is disconcerting to know that ATTRACTIVE HOT ALPHA STUDS gobble up women WHO EXPLICITLY WANT THOSE MEN WHILE in their early twenties, treat them like shit BECAUSE THE WOMEN WANT IT THIS WAY, a psychologically damaging process THE WOMEN BRING ON THEMSELVES which deprives women of confidence BY THEIR OWN HANDS and warps their sense of identity, ultimately rendering them insecure BY THEIR OWN DOING, and then, after women HAVE CHOSEN TO BE beaten around and used up BY THE HOT MEN THESE WOMEN EXPLICITLY WANTED TO HAVE SEX WITH, condemn them for the types of emotional behaviors they exhibit OF THEIR OWN CHOOSING AND FREE WILL based on their experiences WHICH THEY CHOSE TO HAVE.

    Female VOLUNTARY experience here is shown NO compassion on behalf of the ATTRACTIVE ALPHA STUDS AND THE WOMEN WHO HAVE SEX WITH THEM VOLUNTARILY, who primarily shape it. If women were instead taught NOT TO CHASE DICKBAGS WHO ONLY WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH THEM, AND DID NOT ACT AS THOUGH their human value was not solely made up of their sexual utility, their self-identities would be stronger, they wouldn’t think they ‘needed’ a man to financially support them, and would happily pursue careers/hobbies as forms of self-fulfillment, just as men do.

    “It seems like men, in wanting to view women solely for their sexual utility, will cause any amount of emotional damage to get their way, then toss the damaged woman down in favor of a fresher, more youthful victim. AND WE WOMEN WANT IT THAT WAY, BECAUSE WE WANT TO HAVE SEX WITH THE ALPHAS. IF WE HAVE TO ENDURE EMOTIONAL DAMAGE, SO BE IT. IT’S BETTER TO HAVE SEX WITH AN ALPHA THAN BE MARRIED TO A BETA.”

  145. deti says:

    @ Marie:

    “I dated an older man when I was 22, but left that ‘fling’ to pursue a more balanced and healthy relationship of equals with someone my age. I hope that my boyfriend does not, based on the powerful access society grants him to sexualize women, abuse this power by morphing into a woman-hating fucker of college students later on in life. Men have a lot of power to treat women how they want, and it is saddening, just like it’s sad to see how politicians and economists and other people in positions of power, abuse these powers to dehumanize those who stand in the way of their complete and unreasonable satisfaction of their personal desires. Dehumanizing women isn’t good for men or women. It isn’t good for society. It’s final outcome is animosity and violence between the sexes (cynicism, divorce, rape)…Men and women no longer trust each other, and are represented as valuing each other only for sex or money… demonstrates a complete break down of social trust.

    “If you want women to be ‘good women’ capable of understanding male value beyond his financial utility, women need to be treated and respected as ‘good women’ – that is beyond their ability to fuck and produce children.”

    Let me just respond to this seriously.

    The average man has no power at all. He has no power to sexualize anyone. He isn’t even sexualized himself. Men have NO POWER AT ALL to treat women how they want. Your statement to the contrary is absurd and ridiculous on its face. What universe do you live in, Marie? In the real world where I live the only men who have any power at all are top men and attractive men.

    If you want good men, then women need to start dating, having sex with, and marrying the men they say they want in this society.

  146. Opus says:

    @Deti

    …and what about the end of the first paragraph where Marie asserts that if women did not need a man to financially support them then women ‘would happily pursue careers/hobbies as a form of self fulfilment just as men do’.

    What can one say to such delusions. Do those guys who Dig the Roads, Fix the Plumbing, Work the Mines, and Drive the Trucks do that as a form of self-fulfilment? Did Marie never notice that the majority of White-Collar, Centrally-Heated, Air-Conditioned, Corprate-Cubicle jobs (careers/hobbies as she thinks of them) are occupied by Women earning far more than the guys I mentioned in the previous sentence and with laws of such a draconian nature that women can have a man sacked and his career wrecked were she to allege that he had looked at her for a micro-second too long, or had spoken to her in a way she deemed ‘creepy’. Marie is clearly one of those oppressed women oblivious to 99% of all men. Ye gods.

  147. Joshua says:

    Oh shit come on ya’ll. Why do you all constantly fall for the reframes of women when they are so clearly projecting? Don’t feed the trolls. They might stay.

  148. sue says:

    Men have no power over women at all?????—I was raped by a stranger on the street–a much older man—when I was 16—in the morning, dressed moderately, he asked me to hold on two his two dogs leash while he went to his car–I am a KID—I love dogs— then I took the leashes he grabbed me and pulled me into a field with bushes—-no power huh….I married at 17 to be protected from men—he was a little older—23—and sheltered me till the day he died…4 years ago—I am terrified of men—and I am older now—no power—teach your daughters how to shoot to protect themselves—-young girls who get involved with older (I am talking 20+ years) generally regret it when they grow up—at the time they think they are so mature—and look back with such regrets….too bad..

  149. Perspective says:

    @Sue

    I’m so sorry for what you had to go through. It is rather strange that some believe men have no power over women. I can understand why you say you fear men based on your traumatic experience with one very sick individual, but it may help you to realize that there are still a lot of good, honorable men out there too, who would never try to hurt you like that. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t be cautious and just blindly trust anyone and everyone, but just to try and keep perspective, even though I know that must be very difficult considering what you went through. I’m not a doctor, but it sounds like you might (and quite understandably so)have post traumatic stress, have seen talked to anyone about this? Which ever course you take, I hope you find the peace and healing that you deserve and need.

  150. 31 says:

    @Deti

    You leave out the population of women that wanted to date the “good guys” but got tired of them seeing her as woman to cut their “player” teeth on. I was a very sheltered girl, my dad was very strict. I was a virgin well into my 20′s – I was also a working model. I constantly COULD NOT GET A DATE: this always really confused me. Generally speaking most of the “nice guys” I knew were my friends and they dated BETA females posing as ALPHAs who they constantly complained made them miserable – they are married to them now and still miserable. When I did manage to wrangle a “nice guy” I was cheated on, over and over and over by your so called “nice guys”. I started to wonder why I would spend so much time with guys that were not as charming, not as attractive, DEFINITELY not stable, only to be treated the same as an Alpha. So now, after spending most of my younger years entertaining betas that wanted to be alphas, my heart broken on several occasions and my body used by people who had no respect for me, someone like you comes along and tells me I am no longer viable? You say that women sexualize themselves but this is not true; I was completely sexualized by both alphas and betas, the betas were just lying to me when they said they could offer the stability the Alphas were very truthful about not offering. Who is really worse at that point? I say the liar. AND YET! I still believe in falling in love, I still believe there is a kind, compassionate man out there that will love me forever. I do trust, I do love, and I treat every relationship as if it’s my first because with that person, it is. I am saddened by the experiences that you must have gone through to develop these awful opinions about people but I am also saddened at your lack of compassion for the experiences others like myself have gone through. You make blanket statements casting betas as altruistic do-gooders when in most of my experience, the men that you scoff at for being alphas often have a crowd of betas following them around hoping for their offings or in some cases, elevation to alpha status. For better or worse, our interactions with people shape who we are and sometimes the shaping can be painful and leave scars. Scars are not ugly, they are the sign of a defender, a champion, someone that will love you and stand by that love through thick and thin. I get it, a lot of the older guys on this commentary would carry the load of a relationship by themselves than trust someone with half of them – a 20 something very rarely has the emotional maturity and life experience to carry half the load of life that comes with a 40 year old – cue rant about emotionally mature 20ishes. I think for the older men that date the younger women, you are very welcome to do as you please, but please don’t rationalize your own fear as a deficit in women over 30. You do us a disservice, as well as yourself (which I am sure you will disagree with but que sera sera).

  151. Opus says:

    Sue’s story is very sad, yet seems to me to be full of contradictions:

    1. She is just a kid, yet is sixteen years of age.
    2. She is raped by a stranger, yet what she recalls is that he is a much older man (as if that were a material fact) – and that is all she says about him; nor does she describe any resistance she might have put up.
    3. She is on the street which seems to suggest an urban environment, but then she seems to be in the fields as she pulled into the bushes.
    4. She is terrified of men, yet a year after the incident she marries, (and again we are told something about his being older than her).

    I have certainly gone into bushes with complete strangers so that is not in itself proof of Rape yet women can always (leaving aside entire fabrications) subsequently treat any consensual encounter as unwanted. Men are physically stronger than women (despite feminist posing to the contrary) yet out of her entire life this one alleged incident (and there is no suggestion from her that she even went to the police) is enough to make her afraid of men and to assert that men therefore have power (conveniently forgetting that other men will go to considerable lengths to punish Rape). This is not rational – had no man ever opened a door for her, or let her go first, or offered to fix her flat-tyre, or bought her a meal or the like? Those surely are the more usual male attitudes and attitudes which she must have experienced, yet what is it that she thinks young women should do? – Learn how to shoot (and presumably carry) a gun, as if unwanted sexual conduct or approach merits vigilante death.

    For what it is worth my experience both Personal and Professional is that (with one exception) every Rape allegation I have enver come across has been false. I am thus hardly (on the facts as described) motivated to treat Sue’s story as an exception.

  152. deti says:

    @ 31:

    “I was a very sheltered girl, my dad was very strict. I was a virgin well into my 20′s – I was also a working model. I constantly COULD NOT GET A DATE: this always really confused me. Generally speaking most of the “nice guys” I knew were my friends and they dated BETA females posing as ALPHAs who they constantly complained made them miserable – they are married to them now and still miserable”

    I’d venture a guess that you couldn’t get a date because of:

    1. your dad (scared the hell out of anyone who wanted to approach you) and

    2, you were a working model (the pinnacle of female beauty and unattainability, and working insane hours, traveling everywhere, no time to devote to dating).

    I am sorry. Perhaps it is just me, but I simply do not believe for one second that a woman hot enough to get work as a model can’t generate ANY interest from men. NONE???! Something is not true. either you were not a model, or you are wildly exaggerating. Models must have men falling all over themselves trying to date and have sex with them. Many, many men want to date and have sex with models.

    Something does not add up here. What are you omitting from your story, 31?

    So — what did YOU do to try to get dates? Did you ask any of those nice guys for dates? Did you approach any of them? Did you make yourself available and approachable?

  153. deti says:

    “Generally speaking most of the “nice guys” I knew were my friends and they dated BETA females posing as ALPHAs who they constantly complained made them miserable – they are married to them now and still miserable.”

    What is a “BETA female”? When it comes to women and dating, the “nice guys” you are deriding and denigrating pretty much take what they can get, because that’s what they’re limited to. Those “nice guys” had no hope of dating you.

    “When I did manage to wrangle a “nice guy” I was cheated on, over and over and over by your so called “nice guys””

    I still don’t understand how a model has to “wrangle” a date or a man. Don’t you just select from the most attractive alpha men? I don’t even understand the world you come from. You must have hot attractive alpha studs lined up waiting their turn to date you. The dating world is a model’s oyster.

    “I started to wonder why I would spend so much time with guys that were not as charming, not as attractive, DEFINITELY not stable, only to be treated the same as an Alpha”

    I am sorry you made poor dating choices.

    “So now, after spending most of my younger years entertaining betas that wanted to be alphas, my heart broken on several occasions and my body used by people who had no respect for me, someone like you comes along and tells me I am no longer viable?’

    I didn’t say that you are no longer viable. If you were hot enough to be a working model, and you’ve taken care of yourself, you have at least another decade of viability.

    “You say that women sexualize themselves but this is not true; I was completely sexualized by both alphas and betas, the betas were just lying to me when they said they could offer the stability the Alphas were very truthful about not offering. Who is really worse at that point? I say the liar.”

    Roissy proven right yet again: 5 minutes of alpha beats 5 years of beta. And, at least to you, if you were going to have sex before marriages, you’d rather have done so with a hot, alpha cad than a wimpy, lying beta.

  154. Retrenched says:

    “I am sorry. Perhaps it is just me, but I simply do not believe for one second that a woman hot enough to get work as a model can’t generate ANY interest from men.”

    Maybe she’s a victim of the Carol Effect. Maybe she’s so hot that no man thinks he has a real shot with her, so they all hit on the less attractive women instead?

  155. Inna says:

    Hey about that clock ticking…. I hate the ticking sound, I took all the clocks off my walls in every single room, I don’t want to hear anything ticking, and when it’s ticking in the morning – oh Gee, I smashed a couple of alarm clocks across the wall, just totaled them out…did THAT EVER FEEL GREAT!!! So anyone else wants to get rid of the ticking thing, SO ANNOYING, yank it out of your system!!!??? oh, yeah I am a female, well past the ticking age…

  156. sue says:

    sue says:
    Your comment is awaiting moderation.
    March 9, 2013 at 11:54 am
    @OPUS
    I am sure they did not post my original response as I was SO angry at your “proffessional” assessment and if they do not post this one I am sure this is a one sided conversation. I was surprised at how angry and hurt after all these years so let me clear some things up for you—-in the seventies, when this happened to me 16 WAS and my opinion STILL IS a Kid—maybe you consider 16 year olds adults who should be sexually active, but I do not think its healthy….they are more so knowledgeable know due to latch key raising and internet. Also in the 70″s suburbia had lots of open field and spaces—we built tree house ect….guess that has changed too, sad for the kids….so sad….innocence lost—also you did not go to the police in the 70′s you were scared to death and ashamed—and being a Catholic schoolgirl from a very Catholic family—you did not tell—you learned that young. First of all, it would have broken my mothers heart, nothing would change and I was lucky to be alive….Kids today may feel they can “share” with parents that treat them more like friends then children the are raising—my best bet was to keep my mouth shut and watch my back —-my mother had many other children to look out for and I was not going to start any drama. My parents went to their grave never knowing the PAIN OF THIS—WHY SHOULD THEY? I married a man at 17 who was 23—-that is the much older I am talking about. Hed said he would take care of me and protect me and he did till the day he died 32 years later. This is only a seven year difference. but he seemed old—tAnd the rapist could have been 30-50 I have no idea but he seemed old to a sixteen year old—he was not a young man….it all happened so fast and was so long ago—i have healed and am stronger. I sincerely hope that you do not have a wife or daughters or are counseling women—you are a dangerous man to the well being of a rape victims.

    @Perspective Thanks—but I am great my life is wonderful know…I am dating a great man—only man i have dated since my husband died. He is 11 months younger and very protective ( and Alpha) 6″4 230 solid gentleman…gender is determined by birth, becoming a man is determined by age, but being a gentleman is a choice. My new boyfriend has asked to marry and takes good care of me—and i of him but I am thinking it will be awhile before I feel ready to marry again.but we take care of each other and that is more than most couples seem to do…..

  157. Opus says:

    I seem to have upset sue: so angry is she that an earlier message of hers seems to have failed moderation; having calmed down, further details including confirmation of my suspicion that the Police were never made aware of the matter are confirmed, but it all seems to have turned out well as apparently Rape has made sue a stronger person.

    In his book (The Woman Racket) Moxon says (and gives authority thereto) that even in the worst cases a victim of unwanted sexual intercourse suffers at worst three months mild depression, yet sue, now forty years later and despite her protestations of having healed is still so angry that I am described by her as ‘dangerous to the well being of Rape victims’.

    It remains the case, however, that most allegations of Rape are false. It is because the female sex has the well-earned reputation for crying wolf in sexual matters, as they are never responsible for their own freely chosen behaviour – and because men are prone to accept at face value female crocodile-tears that it behoves all men to treat with the greatest of circumspection any claim thereto made by a woman. Tragically the Police – the ultimate white-knights – are only too willing to accept whatever a woman may allege in support of her status as victim and not withstanding both paucity of evidence and evidence that flatly contradicts the assertions put to them such that men are not safe from false allegations. I can only recommend that for her penance – seeing that her Church do not seem to be interested in hearing her Confession – that she click on to The Community of The Wrongly Accused to begin to see the extent of the problem.

    Anyway, Rape – women’s only sexual fantasy – is a crime against men and not specifically a crime against women – for if that were not the case there would be no justification in a crime of Rape (of which men cannot be a victim) as treating the matter as a physical assault would be more appropriate.

  158. sue says:

    Oh you are a piece of work, for sure—cannot help but pity you…..as a man you really haven’t a clue, do you know? I have not heard such hatred or bitterness come from any human being—-since you obviously did not understand my post—and I do not think you were alive in the seventies—I will again say—you do not contact the police in the 70′s when you are from a Catholic family who has enough problems without adding to them—my suspicion is you are a true woman hater who has never been truly loved—–rape is womans only sexual fantasy?—wow, you really haven’t been in a loving relationship with a woman or had a healthy sex life—I would suggest you get some counciling
    —my suspicion is you have never been in long term relationship—-and I can certainly see why….good luck with the huge chip on your shoulder—can’t see as any woman would want to deal with that—I am out of this conversation as you serve only hatred and bitterness—again I pray you are not in a position to council women—and since you so vehemently
    believe that rape does not exist—-wonder what your understanding of the word no is on a date? poor girl who is put in that position with the likes of you….oh and by the way for every statistic you give I can give you 500 in the other direction—but I won’t waste my time…..

  159. Opus says:

    I am indebted to sue for my biography – all I previously knew about the Seventies was that it was apparently the decade that fashion forgot.

    As the entire world knows (and the dogs in the street bark it) there are two laws, known as Opus Laws of Proximity. The first posits that if you place a man and a woman together then sooner or later they will have sex. The second (which I now introduce) asserts that, whether on-line or off, and whether at work or play, that any male environment when, as is likely, it is co-opted by women will sooner or later and usually sooner, be made to be all about their Vaginas.

    Consider this thread, which begins with Dalrock’s amusing explanation as to why men date younger women, and ends (at least so far) – 159 messages later, with a paen to sue’s Vagina – her guilt-ridden Dogging adventure – from forty years ago, with myself cast as a Rape-Culture Apologist, and as if nothing worse ever happened at sea.

  160. Novaseeker says:

    Opus is a (retired?) solicitor (or barrister — not sure which he was) who has experience dealing with rape cases and family law issues as a part of his professional life. He isn’t spouting garbage from a keyboard with a lack of life experience.

    The interesting thing, Sue, is that, while I don’t really doubt that you suffered some trauma, you resort to the same, tired, and typical words when addressing a disagreeable man:

    cannot help but pity you
    you are a true woman hater
    who has never been truly loved
    haven’t been in a loving relationship with a woman
    had a healthy sex life
    never been in long term relationship
    can’t see as any woman would want to deal

    … and so on.

    It is normal, and according to playbook, that women seek to impugn difficult men by ragging on their relationship status, relationship history, relationship options. It’s basically saying “you’re such a fucking loser, loser, LOSER! No-one would love you or have sex with you or even look at you, you loser, loser, loser!!”. This is understandable, because it tries to throw what women see as their power over men into the ring — it’s an attempt to shame and discredit based on social power that women have over men in terms of selecting them for sex and relationships. So it’s understandable.

    However, it’s also overused, and is typically the most blunt of instruments. A woman worth her salt with any significant degree of skill in the womanly arts will find much more subtle and targeted ways to achieve the same thing, without resorting to the blunt instrument. And the reason she will do so is because she knows that the blunt instrument often doesn’t work, because it may not even apply to the target.

    Opus has never been lacking in access to women. Most of the other men who post here are either married or divorced, and do not lack access to women, and never really have. I’m divorced and have a wonderful girlfriend, who reads these blogs as well (and is further along the womanly arts curve than you are). If you experienced a trauma when you were younger, that is indeed terrible. But men who may be skeptical of that based on what you have written are not, by virtue of that skepticism, formed as it is by years of experience dealing with situations like that professionally, sexual or relational losers. No connection there at all.

  161. Goodness.
    Opus, you would likely word it better, and besides I respect the copyright of your short series of rules to this effect so wouldnt deign to usurp,
    But, there is another rule that i will describe but cant take the time to word succinctly. it involves the preponderance of women that were sexually assaulted or abused, as children, teens, young adults. This is especially, it seems, the case among churchians. My data, as it were, is 6 years of posting on several large popular Christian forums, including CF itself, as well as my life’s experience. I could theorize as to why…from the very simple attention getting and inclusion urge, to the more complicated implied power to stop any discourse, “dont talk to me that way dont you know i was abused I tell you”, to cessation of marital sexual relations or at least limiting the variety and enthusiasm of same.
    Almost every women in real life that Ive known well enough to talk at that level has some kind of story, an uncle, neighbor boy, someone, and details are never forthcoming….EVER….
    Lask of details is explainable, i think, in that like allegations suing the utility word “abuse”, the reality cannot compete with the open ended imagery intended by vague terminology.
    So Opus, perhaps a corollary to the second rule?

  162. Looking Glass says:

    @empathologism:

    It’s called “Abuse of Power”. Plain, simple and straight forward.

  163. 8oxer says:

    yap yap yap cannot help but pity you yap yap yap yap as a man you really haven’t a clue, do you know? yap yap yap I have not heard such hatred or bitterness yap yap come from any human being yap yap yap yap

    Are you going to bark all day, little doggie, or are you going to bite?

  164. Dalrock says:

    FYI, I’m moving Sue from the moderated list to the blacklist. Sorry for spoiling the fun, but this is an old thread and she keeps double and triple posting the same comments before I can get to them in moderation.

  165. Opus says:

    I must confess that I like the old posts. With a new post – to use a Savannah analogy – the usual Pride descend upon the newly overpowered Wilderbeast and strip it clean. Later, the vultures come to pick at the remains. Why is it then that women – and it usually seems to be females, who one would suppose have little interest in the Androsphere in any of its various guises- descend upon these older posts? I posit that in their googling (surely over relationship issues) they inadvertantly come to a post that has popped up in the search results and which they think might interest them. In the present instance, sue came across a post, which despite her comments, is not about Rape but about older men preferring younger women. sue is now in the older women group having recently been widowed after being happily married for nearly forty years. She naturally seeks to rekindle something of her youth, for she is not too old and it must be the case that she began dating her late husband when seventeen if not earlier, and that is what she recalls of dating. She now has a new man of whom she speaks highly yet not having the innocence and boundless optimism of youth is just slightly wary, understandably fearful of making a wrong decision, yet conscious that if it does not work out with her Alpha male (who seems to be something of a Friend with Benefits) that her chances with men of her own age might be limited – that is what Dalrock’s post seems to imply. I am going to suggest that her new found singledom and fear of being alone puts into her mind the events she described as happening to her when she was sixteen (no matter whether they are entirely true or otherwise). Women, I notice do not like give sex away for free (other than as a time-limited free sample) and so eventually either her new Alpha will leave her, which he of course has a perfect right to do, as she him, or (if he fails to successfully advance the matter) she will send him into Friend Zone or even utter darkness. In the meanwhile she is keeping her options open, unsure which way to proceed for the best and it is that which presumably prompted her googling as I assume on the subject of older men and younger women. In other words behind sue’s anger at men – largely aimed in my direction – lurks, I suspect fear for the future; afraid of being alone but also fearing of a poor second marriage. One can only wish her the best.

  166. sunshinemary says:

    Off Topic

    A word of advice, Dalrock: ban women like “sue” sooner rather than later. I ought to have been far quicker to boot anyone who tripped my not-quite-right radar. Now that I have shut down, the rather large and growing cadre of aggressive feminist trolls and shills masquerading as confused women looking for advice who had overrun my site may attempt to have an increased presence here. You did notice how T showed her true hand here after I deleted my site?

    One of them posted a comment using my real name, which I had opted not to associate with my blog. Being outed represents a marked increase in aggression and is the one of the main reasons I deleted my blog and its associated tumblr and facebook pages, as well as the associated email address. I was not afraid, but I was very angry at the sheer rudeness of it.

    I know several readers wanted access to the content of my previous site. My husband and I are currently discussing whether we wish to start a new site under our real names as a preemptive way of avoiding being outed. If we do so, I may repost some of the old essays and comment threads, which I have always saved in their entirety on my private blog. But for now, I am taking a break and wish everyone a blessed lent and Easter season.

  167. donalgraeme says:

    I am glad that you are well SSM, although I am sorry to hear about the invasion of you privacy. I hope you enjoy your internet vacation.

  168. CrisisEraDynamo says:

    @ SSM

    Glad to know you’re well.

    Well, what can you say? Feminists just don’t like dissent.

  169. Athol Kay says:

    Glad to hear SSM is alive and well. Be advised that posting on your real name is a one way trip forever.

  170. GKChesteron says:

    Somehow I can’t image that your real name would hurt much SSM.

  171. SSM, it is so good to see you!
    I knew that nasty troll was escalating. She seemed so disappointed when she found out my blog is open to my friends and family via fb. Doesn’t take a sleuth to figure out who I am. Now I’m not Barnhardt ambitious in posting my address but it wouldn’t be hard to find. I’d mentioned before that when I was writing for a campaign that was in opposition to a “white privilege” propaganda group I was stalked by trolls. That was their MO, to talk about how close to me they were and the personal information they knew about me. That was when I started researching as much as I could about them and how to spot them right away.

    I do hope you and HHG decide to blog again, your insights and words of wisdom are so valuable. Enjoy your break. You remain in my prayers.

  172. You did notice how T showed her true hand here after I deleted my site?

    Oh yes, noted it immediately. her glee at the notion someone would lose a job was pretty obvious.
    She has been absent since….I think.
    I am amazed the investment people have in things, to spend time to chase a real identity and use it.
    Sorry it happened to you

  173. 8oxer says:

    LOL! I missed the part where kooky “T” claimed responsibility for going real-life on SSM, but it doesn’t surprise me. The endless attention whoring by feminists and other victim mentality women, who seem surprised that they’ve finally found a place where all their lies (no matter how farfetched and ridiculous) are not simply believed by default, never ceases to amuse and entertain.

    Of course, what irks these masochistic dolts the most is the fact that few respond to their looney attempts to troll the blog, except in very controlled ways, designed to maximise the mirth at their expense (the mound article is a good example).

    While I only participated in Sunshine Mary’s blog a handful of times, I read it often. She never allowed any threats of violence or illegal behaviour crop up there. Disagreeing with feminists in casual internet conversation is (still) not a crime, and not something anyone would lose their job over. All the articles there and all the comments too, as I remember them, were in good taste and designed to provoke contemplation and social criticism. I wish I could say the same for everything that’s attached to my real name (LOL!). Anyway, score one for kookgrrl “T”, who may now continue to dance for the cheap entertainment of her elders and betters.

    Regards, Boxer

  174. deti says:

    SSM:

    I am glad you are well, and to hear the reasons why your blog is down. I am also glad to hear that the content isn’t lost.

    Be well and be blessed.

  175. happyhen11 says:

    You are a blessing to many SSM. I am glad to hear you are well. Take care.

  176. Tacomaster says:

    @SSM—I’m glad to hear you’re doing well, all things considered. How psychotic does one have to be to spend their life trying to out an anonymous blogger? That just goes to show the lack of mental stability some people possess. I got a lot out of your blog and am glad you were writing it. Same goes for you Dalrock. Both of you are doing a well-needed ministry. One last observation I want to point out and I’m curious if anyone else has noticed this; the people that claim to be “tolerant” will go to extraordinary lengths to shut up all opposing viewpoints. Stay strong friend.

  177. an observer says:

    The progressives espouse tolerance, but fail to practice it. Alas, most publik skool grads don’t even notice.

    Obviously more funding for schools is required.

    Even with the constant redefining of what is mental health, i am disappointed but unsurprised by bloggers that seek to inflict hurt. But glad to hear you are coping, ssm.

    From one associated health professional to another,

    Cheers,

  178. Opus says:

    Sometimes it is less what is said but who is saying it. Consider this thread:

    Dalrock’s post is dated 3rd August 2011

    Nearly a year later comes the first outraged female comment from Red.

    Then they come thick and fast:

    Lilabee
    me
    Peace_Hope_Love12
    Chachi (two comments)
    KB (six comments)
    Starmaker
    AsinusSpinasMasticans
    Julia
    Honesty in the Best Policy
    sue (six comments)
    Lara
    perspective (two comments)
    Princess25 (five comments)
    Chickendippaz
    Rana
    marie
    31
    Inna

    What on earth can Dalrock have said to have so motivated these nineteen good ladies to benefit us with their combined wisdom?

  179. deti says:

    Eh, Asinus is a 60 YO man.

  180. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    deti-Eh, Asinus says it’s a 60 YO man. [FIFY - unless you know him personally]

    What happened at SSM is why I cringe when obvious trolls are engaged in the comments and (especially) by the blog owner. It seems like borrowing trouble when you already have enough. If they actually bring up something worth addressing, the issue can be addressed without engaging the troll directly. And by refusing to engage directly, you don’t allow them to refine the act.

  181. Opus says:

    My mistake Deti:

    ‘eighteen good ladies’.

  182. deti says:

    Cautious:

    Yes, trolling such as done by T and others is a real problem.

  183. Yes, 61 year old man.
    Don’t see how I’m trolling, though.

  184. LisainVermont says:

    SSM,
    Glad to see that you’re OK. I gained so much from your blog in the few months that I read it and I’ve seen a definite improvement in my marriage. I hope that you will be able to share your wisdom again, whether on your own blog or on other sites.

    Sad, but not surprising about the trolls. Ann Coulter writes about the gang-style tactics liberals prefer to use in “Demonic: How the Liberal Mob is Endangering America.” Working in a profession that is awash with liberalism I see examples of this every day.

  185. Perspective says:

    @opus
    “What on earth can Dalrock have said to have so motivated these nineteen good ladies to benefit us with their combined wisdom?”

    I’m not really sure what you’re trying to imply with your question, nor do I understand why you apparently have issues with 2 of the comments I made. Just because someone makes a comment you don’t like or agree with, does not make them a troll. Why does it matter if the post that I and the other ladies recently responded to was posted in August 2011? I don’t regulary follow the blog and there’s some posts that I only recently discovered, in spite of the fact some were posted more than a year ago. I don’t see the need for animosity towards those who happen to have some different views. I find the blog and most of the comments interesting, even though I don’t agree with everything being said. I’m just trying to gain a better understanding of the type of thinking that seems so prevalent in the manosphere

  186. Keoni Galt says:

    What on earth can Dalrock have said to have so motivated these nineteen good ladies to benefit us with their combined wisdom?

    Money. Paid shills who earn their pay disrupting truth seeking communities.

    Why yes, they do exist!

    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com/2012/05/cognitive-infiltration.html

    You did notice how T showed her true hand here after I deleted my site?

    While you most certainly have every right to protect your privacy….I hope you do realize that by deleting your blog, you probably got T a nice fat bonus check? Mission accomplished! TWA

    Sarah’s Daughter was right when she first came out that she suspected T was a cognitive infiltrator. That’s why I avoided debating IT as much as possible at your place. I concurred with SD’s assesment.

    SSM, your blog was starting to get some serious traction. You were turning your place into a female Dalrock of sorts. When you start attracting the trolls in the numbers you started to get, you know you’ve been noticed and THEY are trying to subvert your truth seeking.

  187. Chris says:

    @SSM: I have reposted a couple of your previous essays. If you want me to take them down, can you email me.

  188. Keoni Galt says:

    BTW SSM, if you do decide to come out (and I would take Athol’s words of warning very seriously), but if you do go public with your real name, I would suggest putting TWATD back up in it’s entirety.

    There’s a reason your blog attracted the interest of the likes of T.

    Consider Vox Day. He still posts and writes under his psuedonym, but anyone can find out his real name and picture in 2 seconds of googling.

    If you do decide to come back and are not afraid of going public, you could still resurrect SSM and TWATD…

  189. CoffeeCrazed says:

    I find it sad that in this polarized world, that one must be on guard against even allowing dissenting opinions. Because of actions that have been witnessed recently, I have had to rethink my idea that some may be genuinely interested, though somewhat opposed. Now, regardless of intent, those who might even be seekers must be regarded with suspicion. Who’d have thought that “progressives” would be sooooooo against free speech. /sarc

    Trust is a little less intact.

  190. Perspective says:

    @ Opus-”What on earth can Dalrock have said to have so motivated these nineteen good ladies to benefit us with their combined wisdom?”

    @KG “Money. Paid shills who earn their pay disrupting truth seeking communities.”

    I don’t know about the other “seventeen good ladies,” but not a dime I’ve ever received or would even accept for supposedly “disrupting truth seeking communities.” I’m not sure what’s up with all this “T” business, but it seems a bit paranoid to think anyone with a dissenting opinion is going to follow in her steps.

  191. CrisisEraDynamo says:

    Dalrock, don’t go the route of left-wing and feminist blogs and shut down dissenting opinions. You’ll only hand the trolls a victory.

    Likewise, someone disagreeing with your basic premises isn’t a troll by default.

  192. Eric says:

    Before we start drawing borders and dividing camps in the Manosphere, there are red-pill liberals and progressives, just as there are red-pill Christians and red-pill atheists, red-pill family men, red-pill PUAs, and red-pill MGTOWs. Etc.. The Manosphere isn’t partisan. It’s essentially pre-political. It’s a spontaneous organic gathering of individuals, mostly men, who arrive from across the spectrum of social political and cultural perspectives seeking red-pill truth for their individual lives. Pop politics comes up, of course, but it’s not the center of gravity.

    It’s a shame that adversarial agents have polluted a noble inquisitorial pursuit, but it’s not the first time and it won’t be the last. Although their intrusion is a backhanded compliment that Sunshine Mary was making a difference.

    In defense of liberals and progressives, many people who are labeled “liberal” or “progressive” are not either in the traditional (ie, pre-New Left) American sense. President Kennedy would today be a neoconservative. The modern popular usage of “liberal” and “progressive” has been corrupted by the application of the terms to Alinsky-ite Marxists. Marxists are zealous advocates who understand themselves to be in a zero-sum contest. Their mission is maximal benefit for their clients by any means necessary, regardless of social consequence. To that end, they co-opt and corrupt liberal language and endeavors. They’re the ones who demonize, intimidate, and shut down alternatives. To them, principles, notions of fairness, justice, and the greater good are just words to be used expediently to serve their mission, then discarded without a second thought when no longer useful. Decorum is not a priority for them since the submission of their opponents is more effective than winning on the merits. They’re not trying to debate you; they’re trying to defeat you. They’re like unscrupulous lawyers except absent the restraints of court rules and industry standards of professional conduct.

    The Manosphere is about truth, the red pill. The challenge is opening the door to newcomers and honest intellectual discourse that includes the engagement of differences while also screening for anti-intellectual adversaries. Whatever adjustment is needed to control for the unwelcome intruders, I hope the Manosphere will preserve its inquisitorial essence.

  193. Opus says:

    I assumed that the comment I left at 07.52am yesterday, wherein I analysed this thread, needed no comment to elucidate its meaning, that its import was as clear as a sunny day and that the explanation would be as obvious to everyone as the identity of the real murderer is in an Agatha Christie novel to Hercule Poirot; yet from some of the subsequent comments that is clearly, to my great surprise, not the case. I fear however that any attempt that I may be minded to make to explain my comment will have the same effect as attempting to explain a joke.

  194. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Don’t worry, Opus. Everyone understood. But the dance can’t go on if the music stops playing.

  195. Truth says:

    @SSM

    I’ve seen this happen several times to women who’s only crime is disagreement with the Fem-tards who froth at the mouth – the death-throes of any organization is when it starts killing it’s own. I’ve helped several women learn how to obscure themselves via multiple remailers, redirectors, and use of various VPN and Tor so that they aren’t silenced by those who hate freedom.

    Of course, these Fem-tards go after women since they are at heart – cowardly b*tches….

    This is why eventually, they will have to be removed. I wholeheartedly recommend taking it back to them and upping it. They will scatter like cock-roaches if you take it to their DOOR-STEP….

  196. Norm says:

    Nice the “see” you back SSM. Libs only believe in freedom of speech if it supports their cause. Something like the National Socialist movement in Germany back in th day and the other Socialilst\left wing movements in Soviet Russia, elsewhere and now in the USA.

  197. Perspective says:

    When I first posted on this blog about several months ago, I identified as a feminist. Then one of the other commentators posted a video called,”Feminism and the Disposable male http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vp8tToFv-bA, by a woman who goes by the pseudonym girlwriteswhat. It was an eye opener that made me realize feminism was not entirely all of what I originally believed it to be. Before, I really did think that feminism was simply about equality for women, but upon reading and learning more about it, I saw there were other elements bot readily discussed in the mainstream media. These other elements I read about were not necessarily negative, and some were even beneficial such as teaching women to be strong and independent (which does not necessarily mean that she can’t be feminine and have a marriage and children.) I see nothing wrong with a woman being educated and financially independent for practical reasons, if it does not conflict with her role of wife and mother. But overall, I came to realize there were parts of feminism that conflicted with some of my other beliefs which are actually quite traditional.I believe family comes before career, that people should remain chaste before marriage, and that men and women have different roles. Blogs like this offer people like me the chance to learn the whole side of the story. If I’d been banned for my stating my opinions before I had a chance to see that video posted by one of the other commentators, I probably would have still naively identified as feminist. If one of the goals of this blog is to tell the truth, then banning people before they have a chance to realize that truth just seems counterproductive.

  198. anonymous says:

    SSM… glad to hear you are okay. Miss TWATD but totally understand.

  199. David Collard says:

    I am on an evolutionary psychology discussion list. Someone calling herself “‘pini” has literally just posted the comment that it is time men are silenced. I asked her how she planned to do that.

    Feminists are hysterically intolerant.

  200. Clarence says:

    First:
    I’m glad SSM cleared up what happened to her and I hope whatever decision she makes, she stays well.
    Second, David Collard: It’s nice to see you here. I hardly ever see you off your own blog (which I read, but don’t comment very often). I’m shocked what you saw on that list. Please keep us updated on whatever reactions ‘pini’ gets from the other members of the list, if you would.

  201. Julian O'Dea says:

    Clarence, I have outed myself as Julian O’Dea. I shall probably stop using David Collard, which was a penname.

    I was commenting a bit at SSM, then I got fed up with the stupid feminist trolls.

    My emails seem to be clogged up, but I shall report if I see anything from ‘pini. She reacted badly to a bloke sending a link about male suicide and divorce. Feminists do not believe men are human.

  202. Clarence says:

    Julian:
    Welcome. That took guts. I use my real first name and real picture and I think anyone with a little google searching could find out who I am. So I guess I’m most comfortable with ‘partial anonymity’, even though I have far less to protect than many here. I think you will be ok, but as I know you are an academic, I can only hope you can weather any storms that might come in your future without getting hurt.

  203. Julian O'Dea says:

    Clarence, I am not being very brave. I just got tired of the petty deception. Also, I am happy with some of my poems at my site and my little witticisms, so I wanted them under my real name.

    I am not employed any more, being semi-retired. So I am not at risk of some nutball feminist trying to get me fired for thoughtcrime. Also, I live in a small city in a remote country.

  204. Opus says:

    The above few comments gives me the opportunity to say what I think the etiquette should be on Internet Blogs: I would suggest that as ones off-line identity is immaterial to the discussion – for no one knows you outside of what you write – and in any event that may be yet another disguise, – as happened with Gay Girl in Damascus, who turned out to be a guy in Scotland – such that an obvious ‘avatar’ [is that a correct usage of the term? - for nickname or pen-name seems inadequate] is the more appropriate – or perhaps it is just that I like the ingenuity of names like Anonymous Reader and Cautiously Optmistic. I think however that there is one exception to this, and that is where one is known publicly, in which case it is preferrable to use your own name. What one should not do, is post in multiple personalities on any one blog (which is what Matt Dillahunty did at Atheism plus – and got himself banned – oh the schadenfreude for one of the high-priests of Atheism!) whatever his good intentions. The problem with using first names, is of course than there are many Julians and Clarences, Sues and Natalies, which makes it rather hard for any subsequent commenters also with that same Christian name and introduces a level of familiarity which in reality is not there – how I loath meeting a person professionally who introduces himself to me, a complete stranger, as Bill or Ted and who addresses me accordingly – the impertinance: Lord Opus is the preferred form of address.

  205. dannyfrom504 says:

    Agree with Athol. Posting openly takes away the trolls’ power. You have much less to lose.

    I’m sure SSM will be back.

  206. Clarence and others.

    This is my latest exchange with ‘pini on the Evolutionary Psychology discussion list:

    Julian O’Dea: How are you going to silence men’s voices, ‘pini?

    ‘pini: Our voices will be louder. There are more of us.

    Julian O’Dea: Nonsense. You are even using a male invention to write your nonsense. I have quoted your remarks on a well-known men’s rights blog. You are being laughed at by men (and women) right now.

  207. Julian O'Dea says:

    That last post should have been in my real name, Julian O’Dea.

  208. Cautiously Pessimistic says:

    Opus-or perhaps it is just that I like the ingenuity of names like Anonymous Reader and Cautiously Optmistic.

    The yin to my yang. The Yoko to my John. The pasta to my anti-pasta.

  209. Opus says:

    slip of the tongue – easily done – Cautiously Pessimistic.

  210. grey_whiskers says:

    @sunshinemary said on March 10, 2013 at 4:56 pm :
    [Explanation of her blog's disappearance removed for brevity.]

    Sorry I haven’t posted anywhere lately, lotsa personal stuff going on.
    SSM, I *tried* emailing your contact address but apparently that had been deleted with everything else.

    Glad to see you’re OK; and [wistfully] vindicated over T(roll).
    Wish you hadn’t been outed.
    Will continue praying for you & your husband.

    g_w

  211. older woman says:

    taken women are hotter at any age. I have never had trouble finding guys wanting to fuck me or marry me, but after I had my daughter at 23, my popularity skyrocketed. Even when still breastfeeding, I had strange guys stopping their cars while walking with my daughter. I probably looked my best after giving birth, lost all the teenage baby-fat, become skinnier from breastfeeding, hair was long and shiny, boobs were big and perky. 10 years later I still turn heads whenever I go. I don’t pay much attention to it, but I see men checking me out all the time. Walking my dog, grocery shopping, at the gym. At work I get asked fro lunch every day, both by married and single men. Even though I have made it clear that I am married, don’t associate with collegues outside of work and am not interested in them, they will not budge. Must be the spirit of a married woman :)
    I married a divorced guy 8 years older and now that he is in his forties, I kind of regret it. But at least he is not going anywhere :)
    Now I want someone sexier and hotter :)

  212. sunshinemary says:

    At work I get asked fro lunch every day, both by married and single men. Even though I have made it clear that I am married, don’t associate with collegues outside of work and am not interested in them, they will not budge.

    You probably give off an easy vibe. Men will follow that like cats follow a fishmonger.

    I married a divorced guy 8 years older and now that he is in his forties, I kind of regret it

    If yer so hawt, how come you married an old divorced guy? Money?

    Now I want someone sexier and hotter

    and

    Must be the spirit of a married woman

    More like the spirit of gold digger pining for some alpha action, I’d say.

  213. Opus says:

    ‘I don’t pay much attention to it but I see men checking me out all the time’. Surely some contradiction there.

  214. deti says:

    please don’t feed the trolls.

  215. Jamie says:

    I am a young women and I prefer young men.
    Do young women get any say in any of this? lol.
    I mean, sure older guys may *want* to date me, but it doesn’t mean I’m game. Most of my friends feel the same way. They quoted 46 year old men in this article for heavens sake.

  216. Jamie says:

    As a followup:
    After reading through a good deal of the comments I sense a lot of embitterment from men and women alike. This is an interesting post, but it’s no reason to get upset. Most older guys like young women, but the feeling isn’t usually mututal. I’ve dated older before, but I never took it seriously because I knew I could easily replace him (and yes, I do feel bad about it and learned) The ideal age gap for a marriage is 4 years. Being with someone a lot older than you (man or woman) is unnatural and will get you a lot of funny looks. More power to you if you can deal with it though.

  217. Josh says:

    Well, there’s the physical aspect, which is undeniable. But then there’s the aspect where younger women haven’t been drug over the coals of life yet and so they’re still happy, vibrant, quirky and unpredictable; they have a very special glow. And Jamie, you aren’t aren’t attracted to older men and many younger women feel the same way, but there are enough younger women out there who are *really* into older men to make it worth looking. It’s like spam, if you get a spam email and wonder why they keep sending you this stuff that you don’t want, it’s because they’re not trying to get your attention, it’s because they’re trying to find the needle in the haystack that WILL respond and buy whatever product, etc. We’re not looking for you, you’re not interested, we’re looking for the girl who is, but no one’s wearing a sign to tell us who to ask, so we have to hit up a lot of young ladies to find the fit for us. If you don’t ask, you’ll never find her. It’s the same way with general attraction, it’s a tough job being the guy who has to be “on the hunt”, we have to knock on a lot of doors to find the right one. The last relationship I had, I was 35 and she was 18 and it was fine, except she had some extremely snarky friends.

  218. Kyle says:

    Here’s a sick blogpost about how young AND old you can date and even when you should START dating using math. amarasooriya.wordpress.com. amarasooriya.blogspot.ca.

  219. Michael says:

    @ Kyle

    No it’s not a “sick blog post”. When will people learn the to keep things SIMPLE. I’m not here to compute algebraic formulas. Tell the author to make a calculator with Q and A variables.

    Age
    IQ
    Income
    Personality
    Etc Etc.

    Assign values to each one. Then show a man how young he can date. His chances numerical number of approaches required etc. .

  220. Revelation: Men. You’d see me. You’d fall at my feet. I’m 38 and never married and never will because I don’t want to. Marriage ruins people’s lives. And younger women have that thing you call elfin unearned beauty. I have earned and timeless beauty. Plus fuck, I’m brilliant, talented, hilarious, kind, loyal. Any single one of you douchebags–I kicked you down when I was 18, 22, 25, 30, and now 38 goddamned years that I am proud to have lived. HOT. If that’s all you’re looking for, that’s all you’ll get. And it’s a shame. For life is short. Men are bitter, too. Experience teaches healthy people to take care of themselves and have wonderful stories. But we learn. And if you don’t learn. And it sounds like most of the men talking hear haven’t learned anything. Age isn’t the deal. It’s terminal adolescence. And the fear of the inevitable–death. A reality. But you, this just goes to the misogynistic hypocrites on this fucking stupid site–prefer illusion to reality. The reality being, you’re not adult enough to have a relationship with a real, curious, genuine human being regardless of age. No reflection of your true self in the face of another is how you prefer it. Can’t see yourself. Don’t dare to see yourself. A friend of mine, a woman, who is 40, is with an amazing 24-year-old man. Souls meet. Hearts meet. But experiencing the hardships of a relationship is what makes it sweet and worthwhile. No matter what you do, fools, you’re still going to die. (I know this went over ALL OF YOUR HEADS). HOT. Go watch porn like the bitter guy said. You’ll do a lot less damage to the world if you just keep your dick, your face, and your idiocy to yourself.

  221. Buck says:

    daaaaaaaaaang says:
    June 18, 2013 at 12:53 pm

    @ “A friend of mine, a woman, who is 40, is with an amazing 24-year-old man. Souls meet. Hearts meet. ”
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! Any 24yo guy banging a 40yo dried up slut is just slumming effortless tang. All young guys know that 35+ single women are easy marks for the raunchiest sex, any time, any where and they will pick up the tab!
    But, thank you, really… protein receptacles like you are national treasure. We guys love your attitude, put out with no expectation of commitment….THANK YOU, and stay hot as long as you can!
    Cheers sweatheart!

  222. Michael says:

    @ daaaaang

    Your are psychoticaly deluded yet sharp as a tack – in your own mind. A scary combination. The only person here exhibiting preference for illusion over reality is you.

    I wouldn’t even know where to start. But at 38 you are PAST your expiration date. It doesn’t matter if you think your HOT. It only matters what the opposite sex thinks. You brag about kicking men down during the peak of your youth and value. However you are insane to think you still have this power today relative to the quality of men accessible to you at the peak of your youth and value. You don’t. The only way to keep your deluded mind from realizing this is to take whatever chaff comes your way or significantly lower your standards.

    To your friend who is 40 years old “dating” a 24 year old man – you point to this as justification and to disprove the “douchebags” on this site yet it is you who are the fool. Any 24 year old man who does this is a loser by default. and unless your friend is Demi Moore I will bet every dollar in my Scottrade account the guy in question is:

    1) Low income – Undesirable
    2) Looking for quick access easy place to dip his wick.

    You see my dear there reasons a 24 year old man would choose to be with a 40 year old women and more often than not those reasons are the same reasons you at 38 can no longer have a relationship with the same quality of man you could have had at 23. Summed up in one word:

    OPTIONS

    Yes we all die. A heathens greatest calling. So enjoy whatever you can now. Because when its over, it’s over. And it will be too late for you my friend.

    Oh wait. It already is. 8)

  223. Michael says:

    @ daaaang

    I called her out as psychotic and that was BEFORE seeing her photo. OMG is that the look of an a knife wielding asylum escapee or what? LOL !

    The angle on that photo would make every fat friend on Facebook jealous! And at 38 it’s the only thing left that will make people think she is younger. That is until a face to face meeting. Assuming you live to tell about it.

    Match.com is calling.

    Ha ha ha

  224. Casey says:

    @ daaaaaannnnngggg

    If you are going to play pokers with the boys, you should have the cards to back it up.

    I’d have to say, posting your picture is a MISTAKE! You are not attractive, I have been with far better, and kicked far better to the curb.

    If anything, you are proving everyone’s point on this site. An aging, unattractive, feminist spinster. No men will be falling at your feet today.

    Delusional, dried up, twat. That is what you are………

    Michael has this spot on…..she looks like a bi-polar killer.

  225. 8oxer says:

    Oh LOLOLOL! I wondered when someone would notice that shrike’s face. Incredible that she would write such tripe and post it next to her hideous old mug.

    Yeah, honey, we’re all swooning at your feet.

  226. Casey says:

    @ Daaaaaaaaaaaang

    Daaaaaaang said:
    “Plus fuck, I’m brilliant, talented, hilarious, kind, loyal. Any single one of you douchebags–I kicked you down when I was 18, 22, 25, 30, and now 38 goddamned years…….”

    Yes, we can all see how kind & loyal you are…….just look at the way you treated us poor “douchebags”

    Your ‘best before’ date is a dot in the rear-view mirror. You truly are the fodder for this website….thanks for participating.

    We have some excellent parting gifts for you:

    * a years supply of kitty litter for your cats
    * a replacement pair of rose-coloured glasses…..in the event yours break
    * a carnival mirror, which you just might look better in.
    * and a bottle of ‘crazy-out’…….please do the world a favour and place a few drops in your eyes.

  227. dAVE says:

    Ladies!, ladies!, ladies! its not so much about age as it is KEEPING YOURSELF TOGETHER..
    I can easily agree with wanting the ego boost of scoring a hot younger chickee
    ( but after 2 dates, thier lack of life experience or intelliegence can grow stale)
    I dont what that ding dog is talking about embracing his inner goofball he sounds like he lives in his mom’s basement with a bunch of action figurines
    I dont like a late 30s woman who may have saggy boobs or a saggy body due to life or childbirth….no one does! Its a scientific fact that better looking / in shape people do better in life.
    Good looking people make every one happy and at ease.. so who wouldnt wanna hang out with some one up beat and good looking?

    on the other hand guys..
    The same way we dont want the busted up looking chicks
    there are some HOT women even in thier 50s.. that are up on thier yoga classes, pole dance fitness, kick box cardio, and keegles that want nothing to do with a saggy skinned limp dick fellow with a beer gut.So dont suffer from dementia and watching football commercials.
    Cougars are going with young guys for a reason. And if a mature male is less atractive he is expected to at least be financially stable..No one wants to hop on an old broke guy.
    If youre ugly( sad thing is some guys just cant be honest) no money or your wallet got raped by your ex wife and kids yet you think youre gonna pull Mila Kunis or Kelly Rowland.. keep snifing house hold agents. No money = no honeys! All women wanna be shown a good time.
    Different ages, ethnicities, and social groups may wanna go different places- but youve still gotta be a man and make an effort.
    Ladies… if you wanna eat for free.. WE EXPECT YOU TO BE HOT
    Ive seen the same woman look hot early 20s, have 1 kid & be washed up by 25.!!
    Beyonce, Jlo, Fergie, Halle Berry , Sofia Vergara are all over 30 and tight bodied and keeping thier look up.
    The only way you will maintain your early 20s & high school aged firmness is though excercise… stay fashionable, get some hobbies , and YOUR OWN interests,not trying to marry me or leech..

    One appeal of women in thier 20s is they are doing something, so energetic, ambitious, trying to take over the world, maybe they are naive but thier energy is fun!
    Sex is very important.. Sex of anyone one who works out is so much hotter.. Im not a fan of celulite and the only rolls I enjoy are on a plate.Sex with late 30s women can be so much fun because they at least KNOW what they are doing and are comfortable with themselves,..
    I dont like dim lighted sex because a woman is trying to hide physical flaws she should have worked out, and this can happen with a woman of any age.

    I want a diva in the bed room, matching panty and bra, firm ass, exfoliated skin, good make up- sexy sexy- get some botox if you need it, buy some hair, I dont wanna know!! Just look good and keep your shit together, swing that ass , have some stamina, make me want you, drive me crazy…make me want you!!!
    that has to do with confidence, FITNESS, maintainence and sex appeal

    Women who keep themselves up are sexy

  228. Casey says:

    Why men date younger women?

    For the same reason I reach to the back of the cooler at the grocery store for a carton of milk with a further extended ‘best before’ date.

  229. Michael says:

    @ Casey

    LOL ! ! :)

  230. DaringHart13 says:

    I’m 45 years old…..dating a 29 year old.

    1. We like sex with beautiful women
    2. We like FUN companionship
    3. We date them because we can….

    For anyone in my age group dating women our age……they will tell you that women are age just aren’t fun…. they are bitter, angry and volatile.

  231. tiff says:

    Out of a woman’s advice. Age dose not matter when it pops up that a younger woman wants to date an older man I’m 23 and fell in love with a man who is 50. I love how he is wise. My life had always ben bad till I met him he makes a me laugh. Women love the wise owl and the old fashoned romance. I love my man family will be mad but don’t let them stop u.

  232. Chris says:

    Although the author seems to want desperately to believe that older men date younger women out of some supposed male insecurities, she did stumble into the general proximity of the idea that older women effectively remove themselves from the dating pool because of their “check-list” mentality of what they need in a man and what they need a man to do for them. Older women may even view this thinking as entirely reasonable on their part (‘I’m right and the rest of the world is wrong’ mentality), but at the end of the day they are still alone. When something doesn’t yield the desired result, you change it in order to be successful.

  233. bob says:

    Answer to question: Because they can.

  234. sky says:

    I am currently 22 I don’t find myself super attractive, more cute and curvy, not big but not small either and i’m always happy and smiling because I do just live in the moment, and I do consider myself well educated and well established in life. I am most definitely not a bimbo, and pride myself in being political, healthy, and in the know on global matters and permaculture.
    Just recently I got out of a horrible relationship with a man just 10 months older than me. He was vary abusive and made me feel guilty about everything i did even having a high labido, and I supported him for over a year, and bought him tools and vehicles, and made breakfast lunch and dinner for him, and even left little love notes for him when he was going somewhere, so he wouldn’t feel alone, but he always wanted more, and if he didn’t get it he would destroy things, anything. And I have never been in a relationship with an older man, and the thought used to turn me off, until I met an older man, 45, divorced twice has three kids one just a couple years younger than me and he is amazing! He almost cried when I invited him up for dinner, and he appreciates every moment with me. We are in vary early stages of dating and I haven’t slept with him yet even though he has no qualms in letting me know he wants to, and we connect so well intellectually and even spiritually, we have the same outlook on life, and he is so humble in every moment which makes me feel free around him, but I am so scared to be in any relationship at the moment because of the abuse that went on in my last one. Do I fallow my heart?

  235. deti says:

    Sky:

    Date the 45 year old man and see where it leads. I would caution you to find out why he’s divorced twice. Red flag, that. And would you want to be someone’s third wife?

  236. Elspeth says:

    And would you want to be someone’s third wife?

    LOL, Deti. I agree, but my step mother has been someone’s fourth wife for the past 30 years. It’s a red flag to be sure, but you never know.

  237. in the know on global matters and permaculture.

    No, it cannot be! The naked yoga breast feeding mom trolling this blog? Permaculture, is it ergonomic to hang upside down from a tree, naked, while breast feeding? The sustainable ergonomic device was a hemp rope.

    Oh, and I think a fallow heart is a bad thing but that’s just me

  238. 8to12 says:

    I suspect @KB left this thread not because she was insulted, but because she was shocked to realize how stereotypical she was. Rather than a special snowflake, she had to face the specter of being common.

    How she described herself: 49, college educated, raised an (as in 1) child, divorced at 17, makes good money.

    How her life probably went: focused on college and her career in her 20s; worked her way up to the top of ladder; when her bio-clock went of at 30, she couldn’t find anyone good enough (higher on the ladder) to marry her, so she had to settle; by the time she got married she only had enough fertility-time left to have one child; she tried to make things work with her beta-husband, but could never come to grips with the idea that she married beneath herself; she divorced her husband, because she wasn’t haaaaappy (he wasn’t alpha enough); she didn’t ask for alimony, because her beta/loser-husband made so much less than her that a court wouldn’t have given her any; she doesn’t regret it though, because she did end up with an “awesome” child (who sees their father twice a month).

  239. 8to12 says:

    Make that divorced at 47.

  240. Michael Knight says:

    Girls are only good (sexually) until they’re about 23. After that, it’s all downhill – we’re talking used cars at this point. It’s a fact of nature and this hasn’t changed in millions of years of evolution. A girl physically matures earlier than a boy (like 12-15) and then has only about a good ten years after that to remain in her prime. Theoretically, they should start having sex (and, of course, they do anyway…) and having children closer to these initial puberty ages. Things work out better this way, because it’s nature. It’s a sad fact for women, but it’s definitely a fact, and there’s nothing anyone can do to change this fact, other than to allow themselves to be deluded by society’s various brainwashings of what is right and and what is wrong. I’m smart and I only go after younger girls. I suggest that you do the same if you can. Michael Knight from famous series Night Rider…(Bonnie was hot in those days from the program, but just look at her now!!!!!!!! Ageing is so cruel to women! It’s like swift justice!)

  241. Rene says:

    Sadly, I have to agree with a lot of the men on this site. Women generally look much better in their 20s and early-to-mid 30s. I find that women, especially after the age of 30, let themselves go. No one wants to be with a fat, bitter, ugly woman.

    I am 29 years old (almost 30) and currently dating a man who is 59. My previous boyfriend was 61 (now 62). Yes, they are both wealthy, but I come from a wealthy family myself, so I don’t need these men to finance me. Older men are just better – they are far more experienced and highly intelligent. I enjoy having conversations with them, over men my own age. The man that I am currently with is very sexually pleasing, probably the best that I have ever had. We have a lot of fun together, and that’s all that matters. I am not looking for marriage or children – personal preference – so that’s an added bonus of dating someone much older, as he is not looking for those things either.

    People stare all the time when we’re out, but that’s just part of the fun! Let them wonder and assume. I may be 29, but I always get mistaken for 23 or 24. I take good care of myself, with a strict diet and a lot of exercise. I have done some modelling as well, and I always turn heads. I have my pick of men, but I always gravitate towards the older ones. On top of all that, I have a university education and a professional career as well. My point is that I have options – a lot of them – but older men rock my world.

    Really, age is just a number, it’s how you look (and act) that matters. I look better than my 21-year-old friend. I have seen women in their 40s who are stunning, and look better than girls half their age. Why? Because they take care of themselves. If you watch your figure, so will the boys – trust me.

    So, for all the bitter older women who hate on women like me – maybe you should take that frustration out at the gym? Just a suggestion. We don’t walk around with our age tattooed on our forehead. It really comes down to HOW YOU LOOK.

    Perfect ex, George Clooney and his ex-gf, Stacy Kiebler. She is 32, yet has the body of a 20-year-old. In fact, she looks better than someone ten years her junior – for ex, Taylor Swift.

  242. tidwells90 says:

    I have started seeing an older man. I’m 22 and he is 41. Should I be concerned about the age difference? I just don’t know what to expect if this turns into something serious. Sex drive, will he want to marry me, will he want children with me? I know these are questions I should ask him but I am young and I don’t want to waste his time. I would like another man’s perspective on whether I should just nip this in the bud while I’m still “hot” and have options. Reading all of everyone’s comments has given me whiplash. I now believe older men solely want young women because we are hot. Does that also mean that most older men don’t want anything serious with younger women?

  243. I have started seeing an older man. I’m 22 and he is 41. Should I be concerned about the age difference?

    I would be if I were you.

    I’m a happily married 42 year old man. Let me tell you something, when a man gets involved with a woman young enough to be his daughter, that (to me) is a serious problem. Let me ask you something tidwells, what do the two of you possibly have to talk about? You are both at completely different stages in life. In 15 or 20 years, he’s thinking about warming up the RV or motor boat and retiring. In 20 years, you are going to want to be taking your 8 year old to 3rd grade. You wont be winding down, you are just warming up!

    Let me give you a little personal experience here. When I was 24 (and hot, like you are now) I was involved with a 33 year old attorney. She was not hot. She had money and connections, great friends. I was with her for the events and great worldly experiences she introduced to me. She was with me for two reasons: the physical (nighttime adult fun and I was young enough that I could alwyas peform) and to show me off at her law firm’s functions. When we’d go out to meet all the other attornies at her firm I was not allowed to speak. She would doll me up and I was nothing more than her “boy” so to speak. I just sat there, ate my meals, drank my drink, and sat quietly with the male attornies girlfriends (who were all young like me) and when she took me back to her apartment, she ravaged me. That was all I was to her, just the physical and something to show off to her coworkers. Now as a young man, I could handle it. I kind of got off on it (gave me a lot of power in that kind of relationship) and my friends were jealous of me (the way your friends are no doubt jealous of you.) But what stung, why I left her, she never respected me as a person. I don’t know anything about your relationship tidwells, but I don’t see how this man can respect you. I just don’t see it.

    Maybe for you it’s different. But I know men and I know why they chase young girls. And if you knew, you might never stop slapping us.

  244. Feminist Hater says:

    IBB, you lying sack of shit. She could read this entire blog and realise the reason most men marry and date younger women; and it’s got nothing to do with all the crap you come up with.

    Read the blog, realise he could or could not be a man looking to get married but his age has got nothing to do with it. Now, if you really want some truth. Men will use a 28 to 32 year old like there is no tomorrow because she is easy as she is desperate for a ring and it shows. However, if you’re serious about your intentions as a 21 year old, no sex should be involved at all and he needs to court you as a woman looking to marry. Make your intentions clear.

    Men chase young woman because they are young, fertile and haven’t been ruined by years on the cock carousel. It’s rather easy, it’s not some big secret like IBB would like you to believe.

  245. Slargtarg says:


    Let me ask you something tidwells, what do the two of you possibly have to talk about? You are both at completely different stages in life.

    What about beta she eventually marries? What will she have in common with him? How will they be able to relate when one rode the carousel and the other lived in the modern SMP desert?

  246. FH,

    IBB, you lying sack of shit. She could read this entire blog and realise the reason most men marry and date younger women; and it’s got nothing to do with all the crap you come up with.

    #1) I am not lying.

    #2) You are in no position to give me a hard time. None. I don’t ever give you a hard time when you’ve typed something that I disagree with.

    #3) tidwells is 22. She is a kid. She asked a serious question. I gave her a serious answer. Do not fly off the handle and go all White Knight on me in the hopes that she is even going to let you sniff her panties. You and I don’t have to agree, just do not call me a liar.

    I have read this blog. You are right, it is not a secret why men chase women young enough to be their daughters. I never said it was. You are projecting. You (and the people in the blog chase for sincere purposes) are also in the dramatic minority. And even the sincere ones, some of the things that have been said on this blog is kind of sick and perverted FH. That is why tidwells is spooked. She has REASON to be spooked.

    I would never-EVER condone my 22 year old daughter seeing a 41 year old man. Never. She’s out of the house there is nothing I can do, but I’m not going to happy about it and I’m not going to be happy with him. If that makes you happy, then whatever. But I not going to accept it.

    Why don’t you do us both a favor and wait until tidwells responds before you fly off the handle and insult me again?

  247. Ton says:

    Darling it’s always wise to be concerned, however the answer you ‘re looking for differ from man to man.

    Yes being hotter then 40 year old women plays a factor, but there is potentially a lot more then hot. Just depends on the man and the girl. #2 on the list is an infinitely better attitude and less clashes over control with younger women, younger women actually enjoying life….. The list is a damn long one, all of which leads to a more pleasant experience.

    His sex drive falling off is easy to fix. Past that, you have to ask him those questions and weigh his answers

  248. AJ says:

    When I was 22 my father would not allow me to date a man who was more than 5 years my senior. The man that I married is the same age that I am, and I’m grateful for that. All of the other age related issues aside women live longer than men and a woman married to a man 20 years older than her is setting herself up for a long widowhood, possibly while she has young children. God willing, my husband and I will grow old together.

  249. tidwells90 says:

    Hmm. Like another user mentioned, I am completely impressed with this older man! He has traveled the world and continues doing so. That is how I have met him. We have gone on enough dates for me to know that my feelings could grow stronger. He seems to be very taken with me, but I wonder now if it is solely because I am the young girl that took the bait. What I would like an answer to is what I asked earlier; can he take me seriously as a life partner? Is there a potential that he would want to, as a 41 year old man, have children and become married to me? Without giving you all our dating history and his life story, can you just tell me if you yourself would ever consider being with someone half your age if you felt a strong connection with him/her?

  250. Cane Caldo says:

    @AJ

    When I was 22 my father would not allow me to date a man who was more than 5 years my senior. The man that I married is the same age that I am, and I’m grateful for that.

    What a refreshing comment!

  251. Feminist Hater says:

    22 is not a ‘kid’.

  252. Feminist Hater says:

    You did not give her a serious answer, you lied. Case in point.

    But I know men and I know why they chase young girls. And if you knew, you might never stop slapping us.

    So, say the truth, what exactly is it that men want from young women that is so evil…

  253. Feminist Hater says:

    tidwells, seriously… just ask him. Don’t seek advice here, you won’t get it. Your case is an issue you need to sort out. The only advice I can give you is not to be easy but to find out his intentions towards you.

  254. eon says:

    Dear tidwells90,

    You should NOT be concerned about the age difference. As long as he is in good health and taking care of himself, there should be no problem whatsoever with his sex drive or ability to have children.

    And, since you are with him now (in some way), you are able to talk with him, and that connection can only grow, through shared experiences.

    Beyond sex, men are looking to fill that “woman shaped hole in their hearts”. A young woman is sexy and fertile but, beyond that, she has accumulated less emotional baggage and, more importantly, has not become hardened.

    As Matt Forney says:

    “Part of our identity as men based in women needing us, if not necessarily in a material sense, then in an emotional one, though material and emotional vulnerability often go hand in hand. That female insecurity is a crucial ingredient for unlocking our inner masculine instincts. If a girl needs me, feels that her life would end if she were to lose me, I’m doubly inspired to be there for her, to shield her from the cruelty of the world. Frankly, it’s pretty hot. If she just wants me, could take me or leave me, my gut response is one of apathy. “Yeah, whatever babe.”

    Confidence doesn’t give men erections; vulnerability does.

    In order to love someone else, you need to be emotionally vulnerable, more so women than men (as girls are attracted to confident men). You need to be willing to open yourself up, to give yourself over to their judgment, to risk being hurt and rejected. Without this emotional openness, any relationship you have will never go beyond the infatuation stage. But girls today are told to erect gigantic walls around their hearts, cutting them off from an crucial part of their humanity.”

    You should NEVER pay attentions to what innocentbystanderboston (and his fanboys) says, because he is a manboobzian bitch. Let me explain why this is true.

    Around here, IBB is also known as Admiral Blowjob Without Ketchup.

    On a more recent thread, he was trying to convince men that the way to be seen as an alpha by your woman is to stand next to her bed, while she is watching TV and ignoring you, and plead that you need, NEED, her to suck your cock.

    Well, tidwells90, would that make you all hot and wet?

    And then he said that he abides by the rules that his wife sets for their kids. She does not allow her children to eat anything with ketchup in the car, so he, a constantly self-proclaimed “alpha”, acts like her older child.

    That is the biggest indicator of his inadequacy.

    On another thread he said that the idea of an older man with a younger woman fills him with revulsion and disgust.

    Which of these fill you with natural revulsion: 1) an older man with a much younger woman, whom he is guiding into becoming a great wife and mother, or 2) an “alpha” with a grandma fetish?

    The natural state of women is submissiveness, hypergamy (needing a man who is above them, so that they can look up to him and follow him), and vulnerability.

    The natural state for a man is dominance, leadership, and nurturing (of a woman). However, it is much more difficult for a young man (as compared to an older man) to have the necessary capacity (easy confidence, earned power, and so on) to successfully guide a marriage (note that I said marriage, and not pump and dump). This article has some very useful information about the different things that have been called “alpha”: http://no-maam.blogspot.ca/2012/06/keynesian-sexual-marketplace.html

    “Women are designed by nature to look “yummy” to men so that we will give of ourselves to women. This is nature. It is not nature for it to occur the other way around. It works the same way as with women and children. Children will rarely care for the mother the way that the mother will care for the child. Children are not designed to empathize with mothers in the same way that mothers are designed to empathize with their children.”

    IBB lacks any sort of fundamental understanding. That is why he can say this without embarrassment:

    “When I was 24 (and hot, like you are now) I was involved with a 33 year old attorney. She was not hot. She had money and connections, great friends. I was with her for the events and great worldly experiences she introduced to me. She was with me for two reasons: the physical (nighttime adult fun and I was young enough that I could alwyas peform) and to show me off at her law firm’s functions. When we’d go out to meet all the other attornies at her firm I was not allowed to speak. She would doll me up and I was nothing more than her “boy” so to speak. I just sat there, ate my meals, drank my drink, and sat quietly with the male attornies girlfriends (who were all young like me) and when she took me back to her apartment, she ravaged me. That was all I was to her, just the physical and something to show off to her coworkers. Now as a young man, I could handle it. I kind of got off on it (gave me a lot of power in that kind of relationship) and my friends were jealous of me (the way your friends are no doubt jealous of you.) But what stung, why I left her, she never respected me as a person. I don’t know anything about your relationship tidwells, but I don’t see how this man can respect you. I just don’t see it.”

    Well of course his version couldn’t work! She was acting as the man, and he was acting as (or, in his case, being) the woman. It seems that he would have been fine with this setup, and he is so delusional that he thinks that he had the power in this relationship. The problem is that she had the power in their relationship, and that is why she never respected him as a person (note that he said “person”, and not “man”).

    Tidwells90, go be with your older man. Everything will turn out just fine.

    An excellent source of information, about how to be a woman in the only way (being actually feminine) that can truly allow you to be happy, is the following blog (and those on her blogroll): http://sunshinemaryandthedragon.wordpress.com/

    She has recently fallen into disfavor in the manosphere, because a few recent articles have misinterpreted some masculine concepts. This is not relevant, with respect to you, because the many other articles on her current, as well as her earlier (see the banner), blog provide excellent guidance, from a woman’s perspective. Her site and the sites to which she links are very Christian sites. I am not religious, but I have found an enormous amount of useful information there to give to women (I just skipped past the scriptural elements).

  255. tidwells90 says:

    @Feminist Hater, seriously. I understand it is a case by case scenario. Thanks for your input.

  256. BradA says:

    IBB, are you saying she wouldn’t have children for 12 years? I would seriously doubt that. (It would be 12 years before having a child if that child was going to be 8 years old 20 years from now.)

    Tidwells,

    I wouldn’t recommend such a large age gap and I would keep your eyes wide open for other issues, such as ones relating to your own father, before diving too deeply here. No easy solution, but caution would be in order.

  257. When I was 22 my father would not allow me to date a man who was more than 5 years my senior. The man that I married is the same age that I am, and I’m grateful for that. All of the other age related issues aside women live longer than men and a woman married to a man 20 years older than her is setting herself up for a long widowhood, possibly while she has young children. God willing, my husband and I will grow old together.

    Perfectly said. That is marriage, not the perverted construct we so often hear from the ones on Dalrock’s blog that only pursue young girls.

    I am with your father on this. And I’m glad he did what he did. He was right. Feminist Hater (in this case) is wrong.

  258. BradA says:

    @eon,

    > “Tidwells90, go be with your older man. Everything will turn out just fine.”

    And exactly how do you know this? Things might work out beautifully, but some wise consideration is in order here. None of us can answer it and asserting the positive is a bit omniscient of you.

  259. Brad,

    IBB, are you saying she wouldn’t have children for 12 years? I would seriously doubt that. (It would be 12 years before having a child if that child was going to be 8 years old 20 years from now.)

    (shrugs shoulders)

    Or 5 years from now. Or 14 years. Whatever. Either way, she will be much MUCH younger than her boyfriend is now. And the father will be young enough to be around… and not in the ground (which is AJ’s point.)

  260. eon,

    Well of course his version couldn’t work! She was acting as the man, and he was acting as (or, in his case, being) the woman. It seems that he would have been fine with this setup, and he is so delusional that he thinks that he had the power in this relationship. The problem is that she had the power in their relationship, and that is why she never respected him as a person (note that he said “person”, and not “man”).

    You are being naive.

    The point I was making (in explaining to tidwells why I don’t think her situation is such a good idea) the pont you completely missed, is that such large age differences in mates bring about these circumstances. This is par for the course. This is going to happen no matter who “the man” is or who “the woman” is. You think it was good or right or just that the young’un girl friends of the male attorneies sat with me at those dinner meetings, not saying anything because we knew (since we were so much younger) that our thoughts and words would not be respected? Does it matter if the young’un is a woman or a man?

    I know why men chase young girls. Perhaps many of the men here do so with the most sincere intensions. And that’s good. But mentioing my ficticious scenario with the “ketchup” in an attempt to discredit my position is a bit weak, don’t you think?

  261. eon,

    IBB lacks any sort of fundamental understanding. That is why he can say this without embarrassment:

    The reason why I am not embarrassed about this is because at the time I was 24 and I thought I knew everything. I made some mistakes and it was only later in our “relationship” that I began to understand that mutual respect would never be there. That was learned behavior, wisdom, brought on by experience.

    If you eon had any of these experiences when you were 24, then maybe you would understand that. It appears you do not, appears you lack all that wisdom. Best you re-evaluate your own thinking before you ever comment on my comments again…

  262. Kate says:

    The main reason you pointed out for the attraction was that he is a world-traveller. I agree that is a very attractive trait. A few things to consider before you allow yourself to fall too deepy in love are:

    1. Are you drawn to this man for his unique character, or are you attracted to his experience/wealth/status due to his age? In other words, is it the outward or inward man that you care for (taking into consideration that these things do overlap)?

    2. Do you recognize that a man younger by, say, ten years could become very similar to the man in question when he turns 41 but be a potentially better lifelong partner for you?

    3. Have you considered that if this relationship does not result in the marriage/family/children way that you hope, you could become “spoiled” so to speak for future men you date?

    For background, I have never been baptized, I was married at 22 to a 33 year old man I divorced at thirty and now at 35 am engaged to a man 23 years my senior. There are definite pros and cons to age gaps, but my honest feeling is that unless there is something extremely special about him or your situation, you might be happier long-term with a smaller age gap. Only you will know for sure and, by all means, discuss it with him after an appropriate interval- its best if he brings it up :) Good luck!

  263. Random Angeleno says:

    @eon… well said.

    @IBB… first rule of holes, stop digging. You’re in denial about the nature of your relationship to that attorney. You wore the dress, that’s why she didn’t respect you. It’s that simple and everyone sees it but you. Said relationship is nothing at all like tidwells90′s relationship to her older man and therefore has no bearing on her question. Remember St. Paul’s command to men is for them to love their wives while wives are commanded to respect their husbands. So much truth in that verse. Your relationship with that attorney was a perversion of that while Tidwells90′s relationship fits in very well. No one should be surprised your relationship didn’t last, but her relationship still has potential for long term success provided both she and her potential fiance have their hearts and heads in the right place. Yes the age difference is a factor, sometimes it can destroy a relationship. And sometimes they work out. I would not automatically condemn it as you have.

    @Tidwells90 … there are always two sides to every relationship. Since your man isn’t around here, I can’t speak for him. But you must first be clear with yourself whether you see yourself becoming not only a wife but also a mother. The answer is most likely yes. So then the next question is: is he willing to fulfill the role of husband AND father? If yes, then don’t let the naysayers deter you. If no, then you need to end it soon and move on while you are still at or near enough to your peak attractiveness to attract another high status man who wants to be a father. Perhaps someone in his low to mid 30′s would work better for you. Old enough to get your respect, young enough to take on fatherhood. Finally, the other posters have given you good advice about making this work from your end. Good luck.

  264. R-A,

    Remember St. Paul’s command to men is for them to love their wives while wives are commanded to respect their husbands. So much truth in that verse. Your relationship with that attorney was a perversion of that

    I’m sorry sir but you’ve dug your own hole as the attorney and I were never married. So quoting St Paul in this context adds no value here.

    I am not in denial of the nature of the relationship I had with the attorney. As I said earlier, I thought (at 24) I knew everything and I was wrong. I assumed (incorrectly) that I didn’t care that she didn’t have respect for me. It was at the end that I realized that the lack of respect was causing me great resentment (the same resentment women often find themselves in when their husbands talk down to them and treat them like children.)

    She didn’t respect me because there was ZERO in life that I experienced that she hadn’t already. We had very little to talk about and I didn’t see that changing. Focusing on the physical that we shared was simply not enough. So I dumped her and she was broken up about it (and I can’t imagine why she was broken up since she didn’t respect me.) I mean it was fun while it lasted but little more than that. This is the problem with relationships that have age differences (and ours was a fraction of the years that exist between tidwells and her beau.)

  265. MarcusD says:

    The age concern, I think, mostly surrounds the issue of socioeconomic status (SES) for men. At 22, a man has essentially no SES; the best I’ve ever encountered personally, for a 22-year-old, was a man with an engineering degree and about $60,000 saved from working since he was 14. The slightly-better-than-average man has a B.A. and lots of debt. So, we can turn things around a bit: a man may want a younger wife, but a woman, due to her desire to have a high-SES husband, will most likely be found seeking out a man older than her (up to a certain age, and allowing for wide variation seen nowadays). So, as much as we can blame men for seeking out younger wives, we shouldn’t ignore the other half of the story.

    In other words, I don’t really see a huge issue with the husband being 8-10 years older, but anything more than that will have to be judged by the person marrying them (since they know the details).

    Also: Higher SES is associated with better life expectancy, and men and women in higher SES brackets are much closer in life expectancy than lower SES brackets. Men in lower SES brackets are much more likely to be working in dangerous occupations (e.g. resulting in fatality or reduced life expectancy) than women in lower SES brackets, and men and women in higher SES brackets. The lower life expectancy of men compared to women, in society, is driven primarily by that. It also has to do with men’s aversion to seeking out healthcare.

    See:

    Adler, Nancy E., and Joan M. Ostrove. “Socioeconomic status and health: what we know and what we don’t.” Annals of the New York academy of Sciences 896.1 (1999): 3-15.

    Wilkinson, Richard G. “Income distribution and life expectancy.” BMJ: British Medical Journal 304.6820 (1992): 165.

    Doyal, Lesley. “Sex, gender, and health: the need for a new approach.” BMJ: British Medical Journal 323.7320 (2001): 1061.

    More on SES and marriage:

    For middle-class men, high physical attractiveness can render women desirable for dating, sexual relationships, and even marriage regardless of their occupation, income, and education — provided that they do not exhibit the obvious trappings of a lower-class status and lifestyle. In comparison, women appear unwilling to date, marry, or have sexual relations with low-income, uneducated males regardless of the men’s physiognomies and physiques.

    Women with higher SES have higher socioeconomic standards for their male partners (Townsend 1989, 1998; Wiederman and Allgeier 1992). Higher-status women may shift their economic standards because they judge their own mate value to be higher — even though their income and occupational prestige are relatively unimportant to men. Alternatively, they may simply believe that men with inferior status and earning power offer few advantages and therefore do not merit their (the women’s) investment. These explanations are not mutually exclusive (Townsend 1998).

    Townsend, John Marshall, and Timothy Wasserman. “Sexual attractiveness: Sex differences in assessment and criteria.” Evolution and Human Behavior 19.3 (1998): 171-191.

  266. eon says:

    The advice from Random Angeleno is outstanding!

    The usual suspects need to stop insulting tidwells90 through their breathless babbling.

    I answered the questions that she asked. And I am certain that she is quite capable of doing any necessary arithmetic, observing people of different ages and fitness levels, and correctly determining what is right for her.

    I was conceived when my father was 45. His brother died when he was 34. My grandfather lived to 103. So what? In many countries, a 20 year age difference is not unusual. Since he is a world traveler, and that is how she met him, she has probably been able to observe such relationships for herself.

    @ IBB

    “You think it was good or right or just that the young’un girl friends of the male attorneies sat with me at those dinner meetings, not saying anything because we knew (since we were so much younger) that our thoughts and words would not be respected? Does it matter if the young’un is a woman or a man?”

    “When we’d go out to meet all the other attornies at her firm I was not allowed to speak. She would doll me up and I was nothing more than her “boy” so to speak. I just sat there, ate my meals, drank my drink, and sat quietly with the male attornies girlfriends (who were all young like me) and when she took me back to her apartment, she ravaged me.”

    She did not “allow” you to speak, because that could have implied that you were her equal in some way, and she did not want you to embarrass her in front of her colleagues, since you were just her bitch. By the way, IBB, an actual man, even when young, would never say “she ravaged me”.

    You were not respected because you were nowhere close to being the intellectual or masculine equal of the other men (or women, lulz) in that room.

    You don’t seem to grasp any of the the fundamental differences between men and women.

    A woman who belonged to an older man, in that or any other situation, would not have been in your position. A woman will be respected professionally, if she is one of the vanishingly few who has actually earned it, invariably through huge opportunity cost. But a woman’s ideal position is to be cherished by the man to whom she belongs.

    “She didn’t respect me because there was ZERO in life that I experienced that she hadn’t already.”

    So, are you now starting to see why a woman would want an older man, one who has had more life experiences and is thus better able to guide, teach, nurture, protect and cherish her?

    IBB, I think that your inner vagina is just too moist, but go read this anyway, in case something can still sink in: http://mattforney.com/2013/09/16/the-case-against-female-self-esteem/

    (Tidwells90, if you read Forney’s article, start with this section: “3. Women don’t want to have high self-esteem”. Best wishes to you and your relationship!)

  267. Opus says:

    The first law of dating is… never date an Attorney – a law I have never broken. I am bound to say (to IBB) that the idea of your 33 year old, plain-Jane showing you off to her male (and perhaps female) colleagues has something sadly comic about it. They must have seen you were her toy-boy, her fancy-man and for all they knew her paid escort – surely they must have been laughing behind her back (even though I do not doubt you were mighty cute). Is that what really happens in America – lawyers always going to up-market events to show each other off and in this case with your acting the part of Kitchen Bitch. What happened to her?

    It is much more interesting than Tidwells who certainly looks older than 22 in the bare-shouldered photo – and who is obviously having serious doubts.

  268. eon,

    I dont’ give a damn how old your father was when he conceived you. Is he still alive today? If not, how many years (decades) was your mom a widow?

    She did not “allow” you to speak, because that could have implied that you were her equal in some way, and she did not want you to embarrass her in front of her colleagues, since you were just her bitch.

    Correct. So?

    This is the point I am making. I want tidwells to evaluate whether or not this man has any respect for her. Only she will know that. I have known quite a few May-December romances and mutual respect never existed in any of them. They were created (in marriage) mainly for two reasons (for the older party, the physical that he or she could CONQUER a younger party sexually, and for the younger party, financial security.) You will note, I did not mention LOVE.

    By the way, IBB, an actual man, even when young, would never say “she ravaged me”.

    Maybe not, but a middle aged man who can look back on is life and has enough self-esteem to evaluate the mistakes I may have made (and honestly evaluate them) might. I don’t know what I would have said back in the day and I guess now, it isn’t important. Perhaps you should consult your inner vagina to see if it is moist enough to handle that level of honesty and self-evlauation?

    So, are you now starting to see why a woman would want an older man, one who has had more life experiences and is thus better able to guide, teach, nurture, protect and cherish her?

    No, I do not.

    Because if he is that much older, he is not going to be able to guide, teach, nurture, protect and cherish her when she is 45 and he is (maybe) dead…. go back right now and read AJ’s comment. Right now.

    Women do not get with men old enough to be their fathers because those men are able to guide, teach, nurture, protect and cherish her. They get with those men for money. They marry those men for money. They marry them and then they bury them and keep their money. Mutual respect does not exist in those relationships. Now maybe you don’t think that should be important to women, but I beg to differ.

  269. Is that what really happens in America – lawyers always going to up-market events to show each other off and in this case with your acting the part of Kitchen Bitch.

    Typical Christmas Party stuff and the party they throw an associate when they make them a partner. I went to three fo those with her. I just sat there at the table with the girlfriends of the Senior Partners who traded in their wives for newer models half their ages. We talked amongst ourselves. But we didn’t talk about law.

    What happened to her?

    I don’t know. She worked for one of the larger firms in the United States. The day I broke up with her, I stopped all contact. I’ve never googled and I am not going to.

    It is much more interesting than Tidwells…

    Thanks Opus. Yes it appears my situation from almost 2 decades ago (however silly and childish on my part) IS so much more interesting thant Tidwells since that is all eon and FH want to talk about. These guys are really wounded that I am denigrating theconstruct around the May-December romances. Too bad.

  270. Mulier says:

    How did he come to be 41 and single? It is not as corrupting for a man to play the field in his 20s and 30s as it is for a woman, but it does have some effect on his character. If he’s divorced he may have some baggage from that. If he has children, then ask yourself if you really want to sign up to be a stepmother when you could have a pristine family with a younger man instead.

    From a woman’s perspective, there are good and bad aspects to marrying a much older man. The following comments are purely strategic (and somewhat Team Woman) and are not observations on how anyone ought to live:

    Advantages

    You will almost certainly remain more attractive than him throughout the relationship, which will give you both power and stability.

    He is more of a known quantity than a younger man and is doubtless more worldly and sophisticated.

    He will probably be easy to respect for the next 20 years or so, maybe longer.

    Disadvantages

    Although he will easily find you intoxicating, his love for you probably will never have the innocence of the love of a young man. That innocence, if protected, can mature into a very beautiful lifelong love.

    You will possibly face years of caring for an elderly man, followed by early widowhood, which will leave you alone and at a disadvantage to find someone your own age to see you through the last years of your own life.

    You miss out on the joy of helping a young man become who he wants to be. There is satisfaction in being a helpmeet, rather than simply enjoying the fruits of success.

    Older men are more set in their ways, so it is unlikely that you will be able to change him significantly. (This may be a good thing on whole, but a young woman might find it frustrating.)

    He may become harder for you to respect as he enters old age.

    FWIW, I’m in my mid-30s, happily married with 3 kids to a man my own age that I met when we were in our early 20s. I have loved growing up with him, seeing him transform as he ages. I am no longer the more attractive one in the relationship. That is the cost of marrying a man your own age. Because of wife goggles, I think it bothers me more than him (or at least I’d like to believe that). Still, being aware of your relative status as you age does make you eager to keep your husband happy. If the man was significantly older, it might be tempting to coast by on looks without adjusting attitude or seeking to be of service.

  271. deti says:

    IBB:

    A relationship between a 22 YO woman and a 41 YO man isn’t based on mutual respect. It’s based on her respecting him and him loving her. Her “respect” for him means he directs the course of the relationship and she submits to that. His love for her means protection, provision and care.

    You were with the 33 YO plain Jane lawyer not for her experience. You were with her for the fast, easy sex. No 24 year old man gets with a woman for any reason other than fast, easy sex. I agree with R-A that men don’t talk about women “ravaging” them. Something’s amiss here. Men ravage; they do not get ravaged.

  272. Feminist Hater says:

    You see IBB, mutual respect doesn’t exist in marrying 30 year old hamsters either. Respect is about the person, not their age. Our generation of women didn’t want marriage and so we didn’t even have a chance. Now, here you come, white knighting and all, telling us that we shouldn’t go for women younger than us because it isn’t up to your standards. Well, quite frankly, I’m perfectly okay with a woman 10 to 15 years younger than myself but I’m not okay with a broad that spent her twenties not married and I won’t waste my time chasing them. And your standards are shit.

    There is no point in marry women my age because they didn’t care enough to marry when they were younger. You got used by a cougar and now have the gall to think that all men act like that… A man’s time is better spent looking for a younger woman who is marriage minded. The women our age, well… now they get to suffer like we had to suffer… I ain’t touching them with a 100 foot pole.

    I’ve said my piece. The advice tidwell will receive here is beyond useless.

  273. eon says:

    @ IBB

    “I want tidwells to evaluate whether or not this man has any respect for her.”

    Ok, lulz, one more time for the males on the really short bus:

    For a woman to love a man she must first admire and respect him.

    In other words, she needs to be able to follow him, but for that to be possible, he must be above her. It is really not possible for her to follow a man whom she must also lead.

    She will have tingles for a strong man whom she cannot control. Vulnerability doesn’t make a woman moist; confidence does.

    Women are the ones who want someone who is “strong and independent”. That is why they get moist for thugs, but not for Admiral Blowjobs Without Ketchup, who must then resort to begging, which induces even more revulsion in a woman.

    A woman wants to respect and submit to a man who is better, in every way, than she.

    For a man, it is the complete opposite.

    If a man tries to respect a woman in the way that it is natural for a woman to respect a man, then he is defrauding her by not doing his complementary part in the relationship.

    Respecting someone also involves looking up to them, but cherishing does not. That is why men love women by guiding, nurturing, protecting, and so on. But this is simply not possible, if the woman is above or equal to them.

    As Matt Forney says:

    “Part of our identity as men based in women needing us, if not necessarily in a material sense, then in an emotional one, though material and emotional vulnerability often go hand in hand. That female insecurity is a crucial ingredient for unlocking our inner masculine instincts. If a girl needs me, feels that her life would end if she were to lose me, I’m doubly inspired to be there for her, to shield her from the cruelty of the world. Frankly, it’s pretty hot. If she just wants me, could take me or leave me, my gut response is one of apathy. “Yeah, whatever babe.”

    Confidence doesn’t give men erections; vulnerability does.”

  274. Opus says:

    @IBB

    Whereas, I would not care to judge the wisdom or otherwise of Tidwells marrying her 42 year old – frankly the world-travelling would be a bit of a red-flag to me – rolling stone gathering no moss and all that;

    Nevertheless I do not think you should be too hard on yourself, for as I occasionally mention, in my twenties I went through my ‘gigolo period’ – as I call it. I, of course, was (am) an Attorney, and I reflect on the fact that I have never dated a female lawyer, indeed the idea somewhat repulses me, but it is interesting to reflect the difficulty for female attorneys (alright I did once take one out for a drink and left after the first drink making my excuses – the fate was blind – and the distaste surely mutual). They are unlikely to want to date someone on their level, and can thus only date older more established lawyers but most older men have a wife and so the dating pool is very limited. In taking you to these celebrations your former lover was, as I said, really revealing that she could not get a man and yet what would you bet that her parents encouraged her to go into Law, failing to see that Legal practise is a spinster-maker. I have seen this all too frequently – and law cannot make you hot when you aren’t – even male lawyers are not that blind.

    Women make terrible lawyers; either more aggressive than any man and bearing pretty much the same relationship to a man as a Transvestite does to a Woman, or, unable to so much as blow their nose without first taking Counsel first – and always bursting into tears and the like; but men have their failings too.

  275. Cane Caldo says:

    @Random Angeleno and Opus

    Hahaha! The kitchen bitch in a dress. Hahaha!

    Seriously, I can’t stop laughing.

  276. FH, I know you are a sincere person. That’s good. And that last comment of yours was a good one. Most men that chase the younger women do not do so for sincere purposes. If you don’t want to pursue a woman you own age (or even a little older) that is up to you. I hope you find what you are looking for, I really do.

    eon,

    I’m pretty much done with you. I respond to your posts (point by point) and you pull a BradA and reject utterly the point I was making. You didn’t even acknowledge my points. For shame eon. There is ZERO that I agree with in your last post. Any effort on my part to try and reach you at any meaningful level would be an effort in futility. Do as you will.

    Opus,

    Whereas, I would not care to judge the wisdom or otherwise of Tidwells marrying her 42 year old – frankly the world-travelling would be a bit of a red-flag to me – rolling stone gathering no moss and all that

    I am kind of with you on that. I just don’t see much gained in being with a man who is old enough to be your daddy. To me, that is daddy issues. But she knows herself so I certainly hope the best for her.

    Nevertheless I do not think you should be too hard on yourself, for as I occasionally mention, in my twenties I went through my ‘gigolo period’ – as I call it.

    20s were real good for me and my self-confidence. I was tall and good looking and I had money. So I had no real trouble with the ladies. My happy hunting grounds happened to have a lot of female lawyers and law students, so that is just who I hooked up with from time to time. In this one case, we just kind of became an “item.”

    She would introduce me to her friends and they would show me an appreciation for wine, an appreciation that I did not have. We’d all get together and go get dinner, went on trips together, (I even drove them all to Virgina, myself, my atoerny gf, and two of her girlfriends and we took a cruise together to Bermuda) so that was good. I mean yes, there wasn’t any respect there, but damn, it did my self-confidence a shot in the arm to share a room with three women who lost all their inhibitions around me! The cruise was great.

    I knew it was time to call it quits when she kept asking me to go with her for a weekend to meet her folks. I told her that her friends were okay, but not family. It was more fun for me if kept things light and since I was just the orniment on her arm at social functions, I figured she was mature enough to handle the relationship remaining at that level. But she insisted. So I dropped the axe.

    I, of course, was (am) an Attorney, and I reflect on the fact that I have never dated a female lawyer, indeed the idea somewhat repulses me, but it is interesting to reflect the difficulty for female attorneys (alright I did once take one out for a drink and left after the first drink making my excuses – the fate was blind – and the distaste surely mutual). They are unlikely to want to date someone on their level, and can thus only date older more established lawyers but most older men have a wife and so the dating pool is very limited. In taking you to these celebrations your former lover was, as I said, really revealing that she could not get a man and yet what would you bet that her parents encouraged her to go into Law, failing to see that Legal practise is a spinster-maker. I have seen this all too frequently – and law cannot make you hot when you aren’t – even male lawyers are not that blind.

    I think she was just a cougar and I was her prey. No more, no less. Her fellow attorneys kept score with each other based on how attractive their mates were and I think she figured she needed a younger model for her to keep up with the men. So I was ready to oblige.

    I was young and so foolish. I thought I was so sophisticated, enough that the lack of resepct wouldn’t have mattered. But it did matter because it prevented me from falling in love. Such is life.

  277. Opus says:

    @IBB
    I see. She was suffering from the Apex fallacy that if male lawyers have younger girlfriends then so can she, yet in the end she really wanted a husband – yet she had treated you like a paid escort. I think that that is where you resent the lack of respect – but you say she wanted you to meet her parents, which suggests otherwise – yet for you it was growing experience to date a seemingly sophisticated woman, a woman of the world. There should be a moral there. In the end you were her toy-boy and you were there for her sexual pleasure, hence your sense of being ravaged.

    Naturally you felt out of your depths at those formal dinners – she was the de facto man and you the women; and compulsory fun is no fun. As you also say it took you away from competing against your peers in the male Dominance Hierarchy for a more suitable woman.

  278. eon says:

    IBB said: “There is ZERO that I agree with in your last post.”

    That pretty much sums it up, so I wanted to make sure that nobody missed it.

  279. As you also say it took you away from competing against your peers in the male Dominance Hierarchy for a more suitable woman.

    My “peers” (we’ll call them friends) were jealous. They kept wanting to know if I could hook them up with one of her friends (which I couldn’t do since these women were not available, and if they were, they would NOT have been interested in my wall-flowerish, betamale friends) or failing that, my “peers” were angry with me that I was having such a good time with it. At the time, my “peers” weren’t involved with anyone (suitable or otherwise.) I was with someone who didn’t respect me but at least I was getting laid while my “peers” were lonely and miserable. And we all know what misery craves. So I didn’t have any parameters to operate within (at the time) regarding someone more “suitable.”

    It was just different. That was the largest age difference I had ever personally experienced and nine years (on my part) really isn’t all that much when we are talking about a 22 year old woman and a 41 year old man. But I’ll tell you this Opus: I am glad for the experience. If nothing else I learned so much about myself that I wasn’t even aware of and that would never have happened if she didn’t happen to come into my life.

    The cruise was great. Planning for the cruise (getting the tickets, planning the travel, getting everyone packed and getting three women to calm down enough to sit in my car) was, meh. But I love road trips. Going to the law firm events was “interesting” (I’m not going to say fun, but it wasn’t terrible.) And her showing me how to do “things” was good. Meeting her friends was also good. I gained wisdomw from the relationship. SO that is something…

  280. Ton says:

    Good Lord, did you take special classes on how to sound like a chick?

  281. Heh. No I didn’t. I was just trying to respond to Opus using the terms he used (“peers”, “suitable”, etc.) At least that way I know we are in the same context.

  282. Ton says:

    lol you are to effeminate to know what verbiage makes you sound like a woman

  283. MarcusD says:

    @Ton

    I did semantic analysis on IBB’s and Ton’s writings, and both came back as “male.”

  284. eon says:

    I didn’t identify the following quotation properly:

    “Women are designed by nature to look “yummy” to men so that we will give of ourselves to women. This is nature. It is not nature for it to occur the other way around. It works the same way as with women and children. Children will rarely care for the mother the way that the mother will care for the child. Children are not designed to empathize with mothers in the same way that mothers are designed to empathize with their children.”

    It is from Rob Fedders at http://no-maam.blogspot.com/

    MarcusD,

    You provide excellent references, such as today at 3:19 pm . When your site gets bigger, please add a SINGLE page in the banner or sidebar that has ONLY links to all of your articles. This will make it much easier for those who would like to have an archival download of your site, for personal use.

    “I did semantic analysis on IBB’s and Ton’s writings, and both came back as ‘male.’ ”

    Indeed, but such analysis may not give the entire picture. While both are male, Ton is also a man.

  285. MarcusD says:

    @eon

    I will endeavor to make such a page in the coming months (and periodically thereafter).

    Yes, semantic analysis is a peculiar thing, and it need not identify biological sex (though, gender is probably closer to what it identifies). Analysis to find age is also surprisingly accurate.

    The studies the analysis is based on:

    Argamon, Shlomo, et al. “Gender, genre, and writing style in formal written texts.” Text 23.3 (2003): 321-346.

    Argamon, Shlomo, et al. “Mining the Blogosphere: Age, gender and the varieties of self-expression.” First Monday 12.9 (2007).

    Schler, Jonathan, et al. “Effects of Age and Gender on Blogging.” AAAI Spring Symposium: Computational Approaches to Analyzing Weblogs. 2006.

    Nguyen, Dong, Noah A. Smith, and Carolyn P. Rosé. “Author age prediction from text using linear regression.” Proceedings of the 5th ACL-HLT Workshop on Language Technology for Cultural Heritage, Social Sciences, and Humanities. Association for Computational Linguistics, 2011.

  286. Cane Caldo says:

    @IBB

    But I’ll tell you this Opus: I am glad for the experience. If nothing else I learned so much about myself that I wasn’t even aware of and that would never have happened if she didn’t happen to come into my life.

    I am really bummed that you think this is an acceptable sentiment for a man to feel; let alone utter. This is what a woman who makes bad decisions tells herself when she want everyone to ignore the foolishness she has demonstrated.

  287. greyghost says:

    Dirty little secret no such thing as a happily married man on a men’s blog, MRA blog or in the manosphere period. A happily married man has never even heard of this shit. I was looking at guns, military history and porn before I searched “divorcing your wife and keeping the kids” That is how I found the manosphere.
    Ton
    You post like some of the marines I worked with. Real old school. Also based on the posting I wasn’t sure IBB was a man or not like that “Pat” dude from Saturday night live. Ravage is a fuckin bitches word from a romance novel.
    IBB
    The more I think about it the stuff you are coming up with has to be planned. I think you posting up stuff just to fuck with everybody. Maybe not. Get yourself a sense of humor.

  288. Get yourself a sense of humor.

    heh. lol. to deal with some of you guys, you need to have one.

  289. tidwells90 says:

    @IBB
    I appreciate you taking the time to inform me of your past relationship. I did not find it very useful considering our circumstances are too different. Simply put, I believe the man I am seeing respects me and I have yet to ask him of his financial status. I presume that he is in the middle-class area. So no, I am not after his money. Does this suit you??

    @Kate
    I did not give any reasons for my attraction to him. I just noted that I have been easily impressed with him and his travels. Which is something that another user mentioned in some earlier posts. I was beginning to feel like this might be why I am so taken with him, because he is foreign and so different than anyone I have met. I won’t answer any of your questions. They are too personal. I specifically did not get into the details because I do not want to be judged. Thank you! I hope this works out for me as well. :)

    @Random Angeleno
    Thank you, thank you, thank you!

    @Opus
    A stab at my appearance? I’m not sure if I should be insulted. My new picture is for you in hopes that you will find it perhaps more…”youthful.”

    @Mulier
    I like this man for who he is. He is set in his ways and I would not change a thing.

  290. Kate says:

    No need to answer the questions here. They were just to think about. No, no one likes to be judged, nor do I imagine people enjoy seeing a gravatar like that. Maybe its just a website and it doesn’t matter, but, as a word of caution, disrespect is a giant turn off to men, and I would have to think more so for an older man. If he has enough experience or options, something that seems like a small infraction could be grounds for a break-up. Some people tend to mellow with age but others become more stringent as to what behavior they will or will not accept from people.

  291. Opus says:

    Naturally, I agree with Kate’s above comment. Travel does suggest, either money or, perhaps, a fly-by-night. Does not every single Elvis’ movie begin with him impoverished but handsome coming into town: ‘I’ll go the way I want, drifting just like the breeze, taking what job I choose, changing my plans as I choose, long as I keep happy I can’t lose, till I find my place there’s no doubt, I’ll be a …’.

    As IBB was suggesting earlier and as Kate confirms, what a man wants from a woman, is respect and the lack thereof is a giant turn-off, as is crudity.

  292. Casey says:

    @ Tidwells90

    Kate & Opus are correct.
    A lack of respect, refinement, & restraint is a HUGE turnoff for a man.

    You have only confirmed your own inexperience and/or feminist driven moxie.

    Older men are attracted to younger women because:
    a) they generally are more attractive than their older counterparts
    b) haven’t accumulated a high ‘N’ count, and a lifetime of baggage.

    Where younger women are a turnoff is when they:
    a) come across as immature
    b) come across as an opportunist and/or feminist bitch

    You are not off to a good start.

  293. Lmao, IBB gets ravaged by chicks … bwahahahahaha

    Effeminate mangina’s, pure comedic gold …

    IBB never fails to embarrassingly admit his balls got ejected into space, everytime he spews a comment …

    I reckon we should inform nasa, just in case they mistake his balls for a ufo, & try to turn them into an episode of star trek

    Mangina ejected balls in space, guaranteed to kill lady boners & set hamster wheels on fire, from sucking upto women & other blunt objects ….

  294. lol @ rmax,

    Jealous? I’m sorry you missed your window of fun in your youth.

  295. Ton says:

    Travel is what it is, perhaps he is done with it, perhaps he’s looking for a fine young filly to take with him. Who knows for sure?

    Premature death can happen to anyone. My sister in law is not yet 30 & a widow.

    The big upside for the young lady is she gets a man who has actualized his potential, but Kate ain’t wrong and the girl could be setting herself up for alpha widowhood. The girl may end up taking care of an elderly husband, she could get hit by a bus tomorrow… Lord forbid the both but folks have to operate with a lot of unknowns. Which should not imply be foolish in our actions, thinking etc but marrying an older man is simply exchanging one set of unknowns for another

  296. Ton says:

    LOL, grey ghost, at my age it’s just called school. I reckon all lifers sound a like.

  297. tidwells90 says:

    I insincerely appreciate the slap on the wrist. I will make sure to jot that down. Never send my dearest a picture of me with a middle finger. I’m sure you all understand now how inexperienced I am because I was being a little too humorous. Hahah.
    Anyways, I did get a good understanding of everyone’s advice and comments. I talked with Brig and maybe it was too soon to bring it up but he understood where I was coming from. Unfortunately he is away for a few weeks, so I did it over text message. His reply was definitely reassuring and I have zero doubts that he is as serious about me as I am about him.
    Thanks guys!

  298. Elspeth says:

    The girl may end up taking care of an elderly husband, she could get hit by a bus tomorrow

    Or he could remain healthy and spry for many years. This is something rarely mentioned, perhaps because it is the exception. I live with the exception however as my 82 year-old father is in excellent health, still very active and energetic. Had his 60 year old wife decided 32 years ago that he was too big arisk, she would have missed out on a great life.

    Of course my stepmom was a single mother, so the situation was completely different. I’d prefer that my own daughter build her life from the ground up with her husband the way her father and I did. I just don’t think age differences (younger woman, older man) should necessarily be a deal breaker

  299. First of all, you are abusing an awesome word. Ravage means to mar, devastate, ruin; you are thinking of the word ravish. Do not misuse words that have to do with force and destruction; show some respect for them. Examples, IBB had his masculinity ravaged by a slutty lawyercunt, and now he begs for sex; I dragged the young maiden back to my ship, and as the crew rowed north I ravished her, thoroughly.

    Second, if you can respect this man, Tidwells, and you are attracted to him, then that is one bar cleared. The next is whether or not he is willing to commit to you and keep you around. If he is, then you should be exploring the possibility of a relationship. Until those criteria are met, hold back. Make sure that you desire him, and that he will be loyal to you, and your relationship should be a success.

    Third, May-December romances are not as big an issue as some make it out to be. It was quite common until quite recently for an older man to get his life in order, then seek to marry. Like the rest of the relationship between the sexes, this has been twisted by ideology, so that men are seen as predators, hunting the delicate waifs that are the strong, empowered women of today. An age gap that seems quite large is not necessarily an impediment to marriage and happiness, despite the protestations of some. It has been done for centuries, so this is nothing new under the sun.

    Seriously, do not listen to IBB. Any man that not only needs to beg for sex to get it, but debases himself and actually does so is no man to whom to look for advice. Men do not beg, they demand, command.

    The Shadowed Knight

  300. Mickie says:

    On my 18th birthday (Now 20) I had many older men come up to me with flowers asking me if I wanted to go to expensive and luxurious cruises, restauraunts, hotels, trips to foreign countries, etc. Honestly, I do not look the least bit of an eye catcher. Not to sound conceited, but I am just a little bit above average. I did not see what these men saw until I read this. Personally, I would not mind dating older men. But majority only love me for my youth, looks, and performance in bed. People think that just because I look like a dandy teen I am all about money, but that’s really not me. I do not care if you have a Mercedes or BMW waiting in the garage. If you do not love me for my soul, mind, and body, you are not worth my time.

    And to those other young women interested in older men who date for LOVE: Don’t waste your time believing that just because he has a high class plane seat taking you to Paris, that means he loves you completely. Be sure that he respects your opinions, your attitude, your life choices, etc. Don’t fall for a mid-life crised man with no respect for a woman’s feelings who just wants a taste between your legs. Yuck!

  301. Midwest Girl says:

    I accidentally stumbled upon this article when looking for shoes to buy for my college aged nephew. Not kidding. I’m really not sure how that happened. . . .

    I know that some of you will decide to belittle me rather than thinking about what I have written – but there is nothing I can do about people who only value opinions which mirror their own. And just to be clear – I am writing this “stream of conscious” – I’ve read posts where people have made fun of someone’s grammar. I know how to write formally. I am an attorney. I have two undergrad degrees – English and Chemical Engineering (no, I’m not a “nerd” – I simply became unsure as to whether I wanted to go to med school, and a Chem E degree afforded me options – still was ready for MCAT, and it was a marketable degree if I chose not to attend). I am not “bragging” about how smart I am. I am only disclosing the foregoing in order to avoid comments about my intelligence – or rather lack thereof – in future posts. BTW – I am typing this on my phone during a particularly boring department meeting – so there will be typos. Also, I am not a feminazi.

    It’s kind of amusing that there are so many generalizations in these comments – which are then turned into absolutes. For example:

    1. All older women want to get married/re-married – I am an “older” woman who has been divorced for 9 years. I am not still single because I can’t find a man who will marry me. My experience has been quite the opposite. I have been proposed to 3 times – and been engaged twice. I broke the engagement both times. The first one – he was “anxious” about having step kids (I have two daughters) and it felt a little uncomfortable at times when we were all together – but he most definitely wanted to get married. He had never been married before (or even close). He is very attractive, in incredible shape, and is a successful business man. He was 38 when I met him, and he wanted to start looking at rings only 5 months into our relationship. My oldest daughter said that she felt like she was “walking on eggshells” at times – I simply had to choose my daughters over him. And while the choice was simple – it was the hardest thing I’ve ever had to do – by far. Second one – we had worked together several years before (I was married then). I always thought that he was very attractive. He is a great father – and had been divorced for several years. He is extremely attractive – women hit on him all the time. He worked out a lot. He’s an attorney and extremely intelligent – probably more so than me – which I don’t admit freely!! :). It just all happened too soon – obviously, a rebound for me. I do not have a commitment problem either. I just don’t want to ever get divorced again – it’s really that simple.

    2. Younger women have better bodies – I can say without hesitation that my body at 41 is the best it’s ever been. My nephew’s friends say stuff to him about his aunt a lot – and he hates it (this started in high school and has continued during college). I have zero cellulite, no stretch marks from having my two daughters, wear a size 2, and wear a 32E bra. I have no “enhancements” – and no, they do not sag! I know that some of you would wonder/assume that! I have always been blessed with a fast metabolism (too fast in high school – I was trying to gain weight back then – 5’7″ and weighing 98 pounds is NOT attractive!) – but I also work-out 4-5 days/week (skinny fat is not a good look!). There are few 20 something bodies that I would trade for – I am NOT saying that my body is “perfect” – there are things I would like to change (all women do). All I am saying is that I see lots of 20 year old girls who are not in better shape than me.

    3. Younger women have more (better) sex – I don’t believe this. In my experience, I enjoyed/craved sex much more towards 35 and forward. I had my first (i) wet dream, (ii) g-spot orgasm, and (iii) multiple orgasms all after 35. I was not a “prude” in my 20′s – I just became more comfortable with my body, and more self-assured (I wasn’t shy or insecure before – I just was more confident – maybe due to my successful law career). I don’t think that I am the exception – I know many friends who have a stronger sexual desire than their husbands at this age.

    4. Older women have a lifetime of baggage – I can honestly say that I don’t have a lot of “baggage” that I’m hauling around with me. Yes, I am divorced – but I was the one who wanted it. My ex-husband and I have a GREAT relationship. We have remained good friends, and I would do anything to help him if he asked, and I know that he would do the same for me. He is remarried now – and when someone asks me about his new wife, my response is “if I could have picked her out, I would have chosen her.” I just want to make the point that just because a woman is older, she doesn’t automatically come with baggage. I’ve known women in my 20s who had a lot of baggage by the time they were 25 -27 years old. Life experiences create baggage – to equate it to the “passing of years” is a simplistic thought process.

    5. Older single women become cougars – I have never picked up on a guy in a bar. I do not go to bars with my friends with the intention of picking up on men. It simply doesn’t happen. I do agree that this is an accurate label for some older women – but my guess is that it does not fit the majority of them.

    6. Older women are not fun to be around – Again, a very over-generalized statement. Many women who were fun in their 20s continue to be fun in their 30s and 40s. I think a woman’s personality has a lot to do with how she will continue to act. I love to stay out late. I love to go to concerts. I love to have sex. I love watching sports (with 3 sisters and 0 brothers, I was my dad’s tomboy – so, I actually understand sports. I hate going to the mall. I hate going to a Tupperware/Pampered Chef/Jewelry home party. Complete torture for me. One piece of advice – one of the things I hear time and time again from my male friends is that their wife “changed” after they were married (or even as soon as engaged). While I guess this can happen due to stress/kids/money issues – I think that the majority of the time (especially when it comes to sex) the complained about trait was there from the beginning. Sometimes it simply is overlooked. Other times, she hides it. A woman who is looking to get married, can choose to only show you the parts of her personality that she wants you to see. She can also make-up the ones that she thinks you desire. Before I get bashed by some of my female counterparts – men can do this also (my former fiancé hid his anxiety until after we were engaged) – but as much as it pains me to admit – I truly believe that my sex does is quite a bit more.

    7. There is no way in hell that an attractive man with options will choose to be with an older woman – This can be interpreted a few ways; however, I assume that it means that attractive men with options will always choose a younger woman over someone close to his age. That is not true. My first fiancé (obviously, I mean after my divorce) was 4 years older than me. And very attractive. My second fiancé was 6 years older than me – and again, very attractive. Both men had lots of options. The man I’m dating now is 5 years older (okay – he is really about 4 1/2 years older but I like to round up so I can tease him about being old!). He is also very attractive and has options. A little off topic, but I have to chime in on the comment that if a man dates an older woman, it’s because she has money and picks up the check. While I have been successful, all three of the above men had more money than me when I was dating them. The current one has a net worth north of 50 million (I hate discussing net worths but I am trying to make a point here!). I am NEVER allowed to pay for anything (except gifts). And I try to all the time. I have also had many younger men pursue me – recently, one was 29. And he was not a loser looking for a sugar momma.

    8. Men don’t care about your education – okay, this one really is not age dependent, but I had to make a comment. If this only means with respect to where you went to college/grad school – that’s probably true for most men. However, if that means that men don’t care about your intelligence – that is not true. One of the above posts made a statement that men are only attracted to looks/personalities – not intelligence (I’m paraphrasing but I think that was the main point). I have had more men tell me that part of the reason they were so attracted to me was because I was extremely intelligent. I think that being intelligent is part of what forms a woman’s personality. I’m sure that some men don’t care. But I am also positive that many do.

    I have many more examples, but I realize that I’ve probably put most of you to sleep by now so I’ll end this.

    My point is you cannot judge a woman by her age. There are MANY varieties of 41 year old women – not all of us are overweight, bitter hags. While, in general, men age better than women (this is pretty valid in my experience), some women do age very well. Some of it is simply genetics – I’ve always looked young for my age. It was horrible in high school – and my mom used to tell me that someday I would appreciate it. She was right. The other part is taking care of yourself. Eat right. Get 8 hours of sleep each night (as much as possible). Don’t go to tanning salons all the time (high school/college girls go all year – horrible for your skin). Always use sunscreen – even during winter. Work out! And don’t hold onto negative life experiences.

    Well, that’s it. Let the bashing begin!

  302. Flaming Man of Iron says:

    @Midwest_Girl

    I think part of what gets talked about are different classes of women. You’re a well educated professional woman who makes decent money, can afford to invest in your appearance. I think this gets understated quite a bit in the manosphere.

    Where I personally think one finds much of the worse examples of what gets talked about in the manosphere are more likely to be poor, working class, or lower middle class. For example, the divorce rate for white college educated professionals is something like 10%, not 50%. For lower income whites who don’t go to college the divorce rate is something closer to 70%.

    Part of it is cultural and generational I think. Some women think men should be impressed by their education, and I think intellectually minded men are. But it isn’t a direct turn on for men. When I think about it, what has turned me on is the quality of a woman’s mind – intellectual curiosity and the thirst for knowledge is attractive. Not knowing basic facts because one can’t be bothered is a huge turn off.

  303. Flaming Man of Iron says:

    @Midwest_Girl

    And when I say can afford it – you make enough money to by the right brands of make up, moisturizer etc. You know enough to educate yourself on how to eat right, you can afford to eat right, you can afford the right fashions for your physique and are able to afford the correct accessories. You’re able to afford to go to a hair stylist who can do justice to your hair/face.

    I also wonder how much region/culture of the US has to do with discussions brought up in the Manosphere, urban vs suburban vs rural. East vs West & North vs South. Some areas of the US are far more obese than others – this also correlates heavily with income.

  304. Flaming Man of Iron says:

    After rereading your remarks, I feel the need to respond to some of them point by point:

    1.) You still obviously want to get remarried, just not desperately so. I do agree that not all women want to remarry.

    2.) As I mentioned, your physique is an outlier. Most 40+ women I’ve met are totally out of shape.

    3.) I can agree with some of your points on this one. Not much to argue about – just that a guys sex drive will go down when his wife looks like jabba the hut, or the marriage is doing poorly, or he has low testosterone.

    4.) Sorry, this one is being rationalized by you. You had how many boyfriends you slept with before your husband? How many guys since then? My guess is 8 lovers in your life including your ex. You have a good head on your shoulders and you don’t seem defined by your baggage, but it’s still there.

    5 & 6.)Agreed.

    7.) These men were still older THAN YOU. OLDER THAN YOU. That is the important part. They were not interested in a woman older than themselves.

    8.) I think already wrote about that previously.

  305. Opus says:

    Midwest girl tells us that she is a successful Attorney (is there any other type?) yet at the same time says that she is typing her very lengthy screed during a boring meeting and that she came across this blog whilst shopping for shoes, she doesn’t know how, but ‘it just happened’. I’ve never met a successful Attorney like that before.

  306. Boxer says:

    “Midwest Girl” writes that she’s the hottest she’s ever been, the best she’s ever been, the most attractive ever, far sexier as a dried out granny than she was at 23, blah blah blah.

    I suppose all this may be true, if she was born a disabled and morbidly obese baby, and only achieved a normal weight/function through recent dieting or surgery.

    While I’d like to give her the benefit of the doubt (as unlikely as it truly is), she slips up as soon as she asserts how wonderful she is. For example…

    I have been proposed to 3 times – and been engaged twice. I broke the engagement both times.

    Here, the troll tries to tell us how she is not trying to trap a man into marriage, by telling us that she’s been repeatedly proposed to, but in the subtext it’s clear that she is being proposed to by substandard men (at least in her estimation). Fabio, Barack Obama and Brad Pitt are apparently not phoning her in the wee hours of the morning, so she’s free to toy with all you regular dudes and discard you when she’s done.

    In this way, are all the declarative premises she begins with, refuted by her own words. Read any snippet of her boring, book-length essay with a moderately critical eye, and get the idea.

    Regards, Boxer

  307. RalphLauren says:

    The rule is the man is twice the woman’s age +7.
    If a man is 20, 17 is long in the tooth.

  308. Merry Christmas MidWest Girl, please be sure to send us a few presents, like a few pictures of your fabulous body! Thanks.

  309. Christians 4 Christ! says:

    It appears most men date women within 5 years of their own age.

  310. Stephanie says:

    Haha. Ya’ll made me laugh… Generalization after generalization. Holy cow! I am a 41 year old happily single female with no cats, no kids (never wanted any), a good job, no financial problems, and a fit body. I stay single because I like doing my own thing. It really is that simple…

  311. Bob says:

    Haha. Ya’ll made me laugh… Generalization after generalization. Holy cow! I am a 41 year old happily single female with no cats, no kids (never wanted any), a good job, no financial problems, and a fit body. I stay single because I like doing my own thing. It really is that simple…

    Why do you feel the need to tell us?

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