Last one down the aisle wins part 1.

This book came out roughly a year or so ago, and while I recall some note of it in the manosphere I don’t recall anyone writing a blog post on it.

I should admit upfront I haven’t read the entire book (and don’t intend to).  I have read most of Chapter 1 since it is available as a free preview, and I’ve looked at the table of contents and several sections of the book using the search this book feature at Amazon.  They also have a website for the book which has some more information on it.

This post is part one of a two part series, and part two will address the statistic regarding divorce rates they use as the foundation for the book.

The fundamental premise of the book is that women shouldn’t marry until they are in their 30s and that having a fabulous single life leads to an even better marriage later.

They back this up with impressive sounding statistics and less impressive anecdotes.  Two of the women in Chapter 1 who they use as examples of women who married before they knew who they were divorced largely because their husbands remained unemployed.  A third example stayed married but they argued she would have been better at handling the stress of infertility had she married and started trying to conceive her 3 children later in life.  In fact, they list mistaken concerns about fertility as one of the 10 reasons women wrongly marry in their 20s in chapter 2 (p 30):

“If I marry later, shouldn’t I be worried about infertility?”  Not necessarily.  How’s that for definitive?  Seriously, though, we know hundreds of women personally and professionally who have struggled with infertility.  But this is key:  Some of the women married at twenty-three, while others married at forty-three.  If a woman is going to have fertility problems before her late thirties, it doesn’t matter what age she starts trying to conceive–she will experience infertility.

They reinforce this later on page 31:

While it is true that a woman’s fertility begins to decline at age thirty-five, the risk of infertility doesn’t rise significantly until age forty.  Data from the National Center for Health Statistics reveal that women between thirty-five and forty-four years old have a 78 percent chance of conceiving in a year.  And don’t believe all the hype in the media about the epidemic of infertility–in fact, the cases of infertility have declined since 1965.  Back then, one in nine couples were considered infertile;  in 1988, only one in thirteen couples were infertile.  Nowadays, in fact, there are plenty of role models of mature motherhood:  Nicole Kidman (41), Minnie Driver (38), Gillian Anderson (39), Juliana Margulies (41)…

I’m not an expert on fertility, but I think they are giving young women an unrealistic expectation regarding later life fertility and pregnancy.  My wife was 20 when we married but we didn’t decide to try to have children until she was 29.  It took us roughly a year for her to conceive, and then of course another 9 months until our daughter was born.  By that time my wife was 31.  After that my wife wanted to take a few years to get her body back and get our daughter out of diapers, etc before trying for our second child.  Our son also took about a year to conceive and my wife was 35 by the time we found out she was pregnant.  Because she was 35, they treated this pregnancy differently including visits to a specialist for extra sonograms.  They did this because the risk for chromosomal defects increases as a woman gets older, as the chart below using data from Ask.com demonstrates:

I wonder how many readers of their book know that starting at age 35 doctors consider it a geriatric pregnancy?  The term doesn’t come up in amazon’s search feature for the book, so I’m guessing they left that part out.  Things worked out just fine for us, but if we had it to do over I think we would have started a few years earlier.  Also, this assumes that they find Mr. Right and marry him the instant they decide they are ready to marry.  I think it makes sense to assume at least 2-3 years to find the right guy, get to know him, get engaged, and get married.  So a woman who isn’t ready to marry until she is 30 shouldn’t expect to be married until she is around 32 or 33 at the soonest.  If she wants to wait until they aren’t newlyweds to start trying to conceive that would put her around 34 to start the process we started when my wife was 29.  If she wants to wait a few years to make sure her marriage is solid before starting she will be in her late thirties when she starts trying to have her first child.  Also, cutting things to the last minute on finding a husband carries its own risks.

As you might imagine this book is telling young women exactly what they want to hear.  I can’t confirm the rumors of a planned follow on book where they advise young men to not waste their 20s establishing their career and instead have a fabulous single life playing video games and doing bong hits in their parent’s basement while working part time at the car wash.  Here is the most popular review of the book at amazon:

This book is in competition with my laptop for “Most Important Possessions.” I’m no longer waiting around wondering if each guy is “Mr. Right.” I’m living- and Loving- my own life. This has been a revolutionary concept change. I love the exercises and questionnaires, and it addresses everything from wardrobe to finances to sex!! I especially liked the chapter about tapping into your adventurous side. This book helped me realize my own beliefs and feelings about things and realize that I’m not just waiting to get somewhere-I am Here…and I can grab the bull by the horns. Now when “Mr. Right” does come he’ll accent and enhance my life- he won’t BE my life. The authors have a witty yet insightful approach to some very real issues. I couldn’t put the book down. I bought one for my sister and my roommate (’cause I’m not sharing mine!!) -Jenn

Sorry gentlemen, she’s not on the market right now for anything serious.  Uncommitted sex is ok, but don’t waste your time with her if you want commitment.  However sometime down the road she will be more than happy to make you an accessory to her fabulous life.

Fertility and the attraction changes which accompany carousel riding aside, this really brings up the question of what they think Mr. Right will do while waiting to become an accessory in her fabulous life.  Why won’t he marry one of her peers in the meantime who is more serious about marriage?  Or if he waits, why will he want to marry her in her 30s when he can marry a woman in her 20s?  This is of course assuming he doesn’t drop out or become a player, both of which are also likely outcomes.  I don’t think they really address this, and this is what I think will be the biggest obstacle for the women the book takes in.

Put another way, they have written a recipe for how a woman should live in her 20s.  Is this a recipe for a fabulous married life, or a recipe for disaster?  If this were one of those cooking shows on TV they would have a version ready baked to pull out immediately after they put it in the oven.

As it turns out we are in luck.  Even though the book is recent a large number of young women have been following their advice for the last decade.  Why not see how it has worked for them?  Lets start with the fine ladies at Date me, D.C.! and their post Precipice of Spinsterhood (H/T Frost):

You see, Megs and I — as well as a plethora of our other fabulous female friends — find ourselves in a precarious and perplexing position: We’re cute. We’re smart. We’re articulate, well-traveled (her more so than me), energetic, fun and down to explore. And yet, at 29 and 28, respectively, we are still single — standing on 30’s lonely doorstep — with ZERO reasonable prospects.

In the past, we would have resorted to self-flagellation — “What is wrong with me?” we may have asked through tears and a bottle of pinot. “Why aren’t there any guys who want to stick around?”

I don’t get it, they sound like they followed the advice in the book to a T.  Why aren’t men with engagement rings beating a path to their well-traveled doors?  A bit further down she elaborates:

It is NOT us. It’s you people — you men and your wayward penises. Megs and I have spent enough time with you all to come to the depressingly stark conclusion that at our ages, there are simply no acceptable men to date.

It’s a strange phenomenon that slowly builds as you enter your late 20s/early 30s as a woman. We are watching the window of opportunity inch toward closed because from our vantage point, there is literally something entirely undateable about every single man we meet.

Echoing Solomon II’s post The Marriage Zone(crass site warning), she offers this handy chart:

But it isn’t just the fine ladies in DC and Solomon II who have made this observation.  The blogger at Diary of Why makes the same observation on her post Why I’m not getting any less single here:

Here is my theory: I missed the window. I missed that crucial 24-27 window when everyone finds the person they want to eventually settle down with. Coincidentally enough, I too found myself in my most important and most enduring relationship so far between what ages? 24 to 27, of course, almost to the day. And didn’t I think I was sitting pretty, then, imagining our future together. And then of course, it all fell apart. Oh shit, I said, and I watched that window closing right before my eyes.

A little further down she adds:

Do I even have to mention that my window theory only applies to women? Think about it. If an even remotely attractive and intelligent guy for some reason finds himself single again at 29, just watch how fast he’s snatched up. So why is it that what for him is an asset becomes a liability for a woman of the same age? Because it’s the law of supply and demand, people, and an unattached 29-year-old guy is a hot commodity. Meanwhile the market is saturated with women just like me. Intelligent, reasonably attractive women in their late twenties and thirties are a dime a dozen.

On the bright side I don’t think this book is telling young women to do anything they hadn’t already decided to do.  Still, feeding hamsters is kind of cruel.  Reading some of the reviews and skimming the book it doesn’t sound like all of their advice is bad.  They pay lip service to stopping hooking up, and the basic advice that women shouldn’t marry until they are mature enough to make a commitment they are willing to keep is solid.  Where they go terribly wrong in my opinion is giving young women the impression that they don’t have to grow up until they are 30, and that a line of men will be waiting to marry them when they do.

See also:

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186 Responses to Last one down the aisle wins part 1.

  1. It’s all the same dumb stuff that guys do in female form.

    1. Look for a date.
    2. Turn the date into more dates.
    3. Turn the dating into a STR.
    4. Turn the STR into a LTR.
    5. Try and turn the LTR into a marriage.

    The criteria for okay for moving to Step 1 is =/= the criteria for moveing to Step 5.

    So it all turns into time wasting bullshit or having to settle because you’re out of time to re-work Steps 1-5 with someone that would really fit the criteria for Step 5.

    I think the cut off age for a woman being really marriageable (for a first one-and-done marriage) is 28. There’s enough time to have a couple of kids before the pregnancy risks and fertility issues start mounting up. After that her value starts sliding downwards.

  2. Brendan says:

    There’s some truth, I think, to what they write. The reason for that is that many people — male and female alike — simply are not “settled” as personas until they are around 30. The “find myself” period of self-exploration has been bumped up into the late 20s for men and women alike, and many people change a *lot* between the time they graduate college (~22) and the time they are 29-30. Outlook, worldview, life goals, lifestyle, expectations — all of this changes substantially for many people over that period, including women.

    The basis for this is that due to the high education demands of the higher end of today’s economy (which is the demo that books like this are targeted at anyway). If you go directly for an advanced degree, you’re not done until you’re about 25 or so. If you skip out for a year or two — which is the norm for today’s 20’s generation — before going back for a degree, you’re not done until 27-28. And then you’re really just *beginning* your career. This means that a lot of people in this demo are not even settled on where they are going to *live* until they are 27-28 (anecdote: when I was in law school in the early 90s, many of my classmates were 2-4 years older than me — i.e., leaving law school at 27-29 — and were interviewing for jobs in a few different cities at once, not even close to each other, say Chicago, Miami and SF — they were not even close to being settled in terms of life plan and so on, and so of course LTRs and commitments like that were just not happening). And, again, that’s just when they are getting started, and most people — male and female alike — are generally not interested in starting a big relationship commitment when they are just getting started in their career. Therefore, we see the trend for people in the educated/knowledge worker demographic not getting married until the 30s. This will be a persistent trend, I think — not because people are living the SATC lifestyle (although that does happen, too), but because the 20s are now a time of education and transition and people really aren’t generally settled in terms of the nuts and bolts of their lives until they are in their late 20s, and that’s just when it’s beginning. Naturally, as you write, even if you get started mate hunting right away (which most people will not do when they are just starting out in a new city and a new job), it’s 2-3 years anyway, meaning early 30s for most. If you wait a year or two to get settled, that pumps it up to 33-36 range pretty quickly by the time you’re married.

    I don’t see these trends changing much for that specific demographic (the kind of women who are writing at date me DC, for example, who are in the highly educated knowledge worker demographic — people who are getting some kind of advanced degree during their 20s).

  3. grerp says:

    I got married at 27 and, as a Catholic, never actively tried to prevent pregnancy, but starting really trying a year later to have kids – never happened. I thought I had years yet. According to all the articles, I had at least 7 years before I had to start worrying, but that turned out to be very much not true. I have a good life and a good marriage, but I think I will always regret that I could not have babies, esp. since it is so much harder to adopt now. My focus when I first married was paying off my husband’s student loans. I wish now that I’d thrown it all to the winds and really tried to get pregnant.

    I have to say, on a personal level, this is how I feel most betrayed by Feminism. It pushed me to get educated, work, and see the world. It pushed for abortion and acceptance of illegitimacy. It pushed for birthmother rights, open adoption, and the right to disrupt an adoption in process. And the end result is millions of women who find they can’t have a baby and that there is no other viable way to be a mother. How is this pro-woman??? Do they not understand that for many or most of us women being a woman includes or even equals having children? I value my education – to an extent – but I don’t care about my career. At all. I still feel a lot of longing whenever I see a baby.

    And, you know, who cares about me? I would be okay with being a casualty of this if – IF – there weren’t so many children growing up in completely unstable situations created by women following their biological imperative yet freed from any of the social restraints that form functional families. Locally, in the last week, we’ve had stories in the news – a baby left in a dumpster, a 16-month-old abandoned at a fire station by a mother who stated, “I don’t want her, and I don’t need her.”

    Children pay the price for all this female narcissism: children abandoned & abused, children who never know their fathers, children killed in utero.

  4. Dalrock says:

    @Brendan

    They are being far more dogmatic than I think you are suggesting. I’ll share some more on this in part 2. They aren’t limiting their advice to women going to law or med school and telling them to be practical about how they plan their life given their career choices. They are actively discouraging all young women who feel they are ready and have found the man they want to marry from marrying until 30.

    But even for women in law or med school I don’t think the book is helpful. As you suggest, those women already know they are pretty well booked up in their 20s. But this doesn’t change the realities of fertility and the SMP. Telling them that what they plan to do will be a cinch is bad advice. Threading the needle is hard, as is “having it all”. Women would be better advised with the truth than a bunch of happy talk. Then they can make their own choices based on the best information available.

  5. Steve says:

    I don’t wonder too far off subject, but I think this is relevant to fertility. I was over at peopleofwalmart.com the other day and I found this:

    http://www.peopleofwalmart.com/?p=45940

    and it reminded me that this whole adult women with baby dolls thing a bit of media thing a couple years ago. Here is jezelbel (i know, i know) with a video on the same subject:

    http://jezebel.com/#!5122258/women-living-with-fake-baby-dolls-treat-them-like-real-children

    I feel sorry for these women. I’ve heard of surrogate children, but this just takes it to a whole new level.

  6. Paige says:

    There is a big difference between someone who is celibate during the process of “finding themselves” and someone who is “finding themselves” in many mens beds until they finally marry.

    The ex-slut post-30 woman has been exposed to HPV and other STDS, possibly had one or several abortions, and has adjusted to alpha sexual relationships to the extent that the typical beta marrying type will not satisfy their need to be used and abused…has only distorted their persona through indulgence in vice rather than learn to understand themselves.

    I know many for whom late-in-life marriage worked out for and I know many whose late-in-life marriage resulted in great dissatisfaction on the part of the female. Living fast and free is a hard habit to break.

  7. Kathy says:

    “There’s some truth, I think, to what they write. The reason for that is that many people — male and female alike — simply are not “settled” as personas until they are around 30. The “find myself” period of self-exploration has been bumped up into the late 20s for men and women alike, and many people change a *lot* between the time they graduate college (~22) and the time they are 29-30. Outlook, worldview, life goals, lifestyle, expectations — all of this changes substantially for many people over that period, including women. ”

    I agree Brendan. It is all well and good to say that women should get married in their twenties, but many men of a similar age, just don’t want to settle down either.

    Whereas years ago young couples would marry in their early twenties(the man being two or three years older) we generally do not see this happening today.

    Young people are encouraged to settle later.. (Travel, establish a career..have a good time etc.) to their future detriment, I think.

  8. jack says:

    Nothing more gratifying to me than a heartbroken, picky former carousel rider.

    Any way I can get a recording of her sobbing herself to sleep at night? Perhaps a bottle of her tears as well?

  9. Butterfly Flower says:

    I would love to get married and start a family but I have no idea how I’d even begin searching for a potential fiance!

    Whenever I try to flirt with older guys they don’t take me seriously. They treat me like a smitten schoolgirl. “Awh, aren’t you cute…”

    I’m attractive but men are writing me off because I’m too young [I'm nineteen].

    Also, older women sneer at me when I try to flirt with older guys. I don’t like getting sneered at so I feel very uncomfortable. Like I’m the odd person in the room everyone hates…

    I wonder: are men afraid to date younger women? Are they stigmatized for it?

    If I’m a pariah for flirting with an older guy, then what do women think of older guys that flirt with younger girls?

  10. Sweet As says:

    I do end up advising a lot of my friends — none of whom ever take my advice — because it’s seen as “too conservative” but usually is just “contrary to what I want to do.”

    Anyway, when a friend of mine wants to leave a boyfriend and/or husband — and she’s over 25 — I suggest that they try counseling and see what can be worked out. The reason for this is because — as you say — it takes time to establish a relationship, bring it to commitment, and then bring forth children (if that is what she wants).

    Most of my friends assert that is what they want, but they don’t think about how long it might take before she’s able to be in a position to have children — and by then, her fertility may be affected deeply. They don’t realize that by working it out with the one they have — if it is possible — is likely the best way to get from point A (childless) to point B (parenting).

    I don’t get why other women don’t get this.

  11. Bill says:

    Beside’s their aging uterus, all those years or riding the carosel have increased their exposure to infections that damage their fertility. It’s always the sad comparison from the teenage welfare mother to the settled career women who can’t get pregnant.

    http://www.babycenter.com/0_chart-the-effect-of-age-on-fertility_6155.bc

  12. Locard says:

    Just think how cute it will be when they can share diapers with thier grandkids.

  13. Jordan says:

    @Butterfly Flower

    Older men saying it’s cute is teasing. Older women hating you is jealously. Older men will want you. Older woman want to kill you because all they have left is older men.

  14. raliv says:

    I echo jack: I feel little sympathy for these women.

    They made their beds, and now they have to sleep in them.

    The girls today that won’t settle will get what is coming to them too.

    And we will all laugh HAW HAW

  15. namae nanka says:

    “and the basic advice that women shouldn’t marry until they are mature enough to make a commitment they are willing to keep is solid. ”

    and I thought breaking a marriage apart a la eat, pray and love was what will mature you in the first place!!

    Sorry for your situation grerp. I used to work with girls pursuing their PhD and on the few occasions that I breached the topic of marriage and kids, I only found confused silence. They were simply following a road walked by their advisor, herself unmarried and childless, after more than two decades of education.

  16. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Jordan:

    Older guys are just teasing me when they call me “cute” in a patronizing tone?

    …but why would they tease me if they allegedly want me? Mixed signals aren’t cool!

    Anyway, older women kind-of scare me. They’re always sneering. I want to go up to them and say “if you keep making that face it’ll get stuck that way!” I mean, they look so unhappy and miserable.

    Middle aged guys just look sort-of lonely. It’s really only the women that are mean sourpusses. I’m a relatively upbeat individual; I hope aging doesn’t turn me into a mean sourpuss! ’cause it’s starting to look like some sort of inevitable female event; like “after you turn 35 you’re no longer allowed to smile…”

  17. Syncretism says:

    My sister’s window has recently closed and she laments it all the time. She knows she made the huge error of rejecting all the safe, stable poindexters who vied for her when she was in her 20s–all so she could “find herself.”

    Well, she certainly found herself… alone, childless and in her own arms.

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  19. Opus says:

    I am reminded of a woman I met last year. She was (so I later heard, a bit interested in me). She married in her early forties. Her Husband did not want children but secretly she undertook some fertitlity treatment, but unsuccessfully and now that she is in her late forties she is unhappily married and thinking of leaving her Husband (that is where I came in) but I was not physically attracted to her. Apparently she is now off somewhere ‘doing her own thing’. It’s sad, because no matter how fulfilled she may be she is an evolutionary dead-end, and her SMV is now zero.

    As Ayn Rand wrote, ‘You can evade reality, but you cannot evade the consequences of reality’. Nature is a hard task-master.

  20. Great post. What I noticed about the chapter of the book you linked to is the wayward use of divorce statistics. There’s a claim that if you wait until 25 to get married your chances of staying married double. There are two problems with this claim. First, if the claim were true, then the authors might encourage women to wait until they’re 25 – but instead they push the age of marriage further out to 30, a loss of five critical years. Second, the data I’ve seen really only supports waiting until you’re 20. It’s the teenage years that have the really heightened risk of divorce. I included a graph in the following post which shows that marrying between 20 and 24 gives you a slightly better result in the longer run than marrying after the age of 25:

    http://ozconservative.blogspot.com/2011/01/do-you-stay-married-longer-if-you-marry.html

    [D: Thanks. You are right on the stats, but I don't want to spoil the surprise. I'll roll my post out on the stats tomorrow.]

  21. Anonymous says:

    “Where are all the good men?! (Excuse me, the cats need more food and kitty litter.)”

    Women, do I make my point?

  22. TDOM says:

    “Do I even have to mention that my window theory only applies to women? Think about it. If an even remotely attractive and intelligent guy for some reason finds himself single again at 29, just watch how fast he’s snatched up. So why is it that what for him is an asset becomes a liability for a woman of the same age? Because it’s the law of supply and demand, people, and an unattached 29-year-old guy is a hot commodity. Meanwhile the market is saturated with women just like me. Intelligent, reasonably attractive women in their late twenties and thirties are a dime a dozen.”

    This comment is just a bit off the mark. Just who is “snatching up” all these single 29 year old men if not single 29 year old women? It isn’t supply and demand. The supply is roughly equal and the demand is roughly equal. Most people marry someone roughly their own age (give or take a couple years).

    What it boils down to is the definition of “remotely attractive and intelligent guy” and “intelligent, reasonably attractive women.” Women want, expect, and demand more from their male partners than men want, expect, and demand from their female partners. thus fewer men meet the female’s qualification for “remotely attractive and intelligent guy.” It’s an illustration of female hypergamy with the woman looking above her station to marry while the men are willing to look below theirs. With this difference, it is then much easier for a man to find a mate than it is for a woman. this also explains why women file for divorce at a much higher rate than men. They are always on the lookout for something better, especially if their choice doesn’t live up to her original expectations.

    TDOM

  23. Dalrock says:

    @TDOM
    This comment is just a bit off the mark. Just who is “snatching up” all these single 29 year old men if not single 29 year old women? It isn’t supply and demand. The supply is roughly equal and the demand is roughly equal. Most people marry someone roughly their own age (give or take a couple years).

    Part of this is likely driven by her very limited view of what constitutes an acceptable single man. But I don’t think it is as far off the mark as you are suggesting. Women marry younger than men do, so it can’t be that on average everyone is marrying someone of their own age. Women find it much easier to marry than men when in their teens and twenties, so it makes sense that at some point the advantage flips. Also, the slight excess of males closes over time which might also contribute somewhat to her sense of scarcity as she grows older.

  24. Dalrock says:

    @Butterfly Flower
    Whenever I try to flirt with older guys they don’t take me seriously. They treat me like a smitten schoolgirl. “Awh, aren’t you cute…”

    I’m attractive but men are writing me off because I’m too young [I'm nineteen].

    My wife was 18 and I was 22 when we met. She lied and told me she was 19 at first though because she thought it would scare me off. I do think there is some hesitance from men who aren’t players to date women who are very far below their own age, specifically women under 20. Based on the reaction you are receiving, I’m guessing you aren’t flirting with players (a good thing). Otherwise your experience would have been somewhere in this range.

    How much older than you are these guys?

  25. Lavazza says:

    There’s actually a mainstream movie about the window theory. It’s crappy, but it’s got hot chicks.

  26. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Dalrock:

    The older guys I try to flirt with…I guess they’re in their mid thirties? They have fine lines and wrinkles. I doubt they’re players. Players are rarely handsome so I’m automatically not attracted to them. Call me strange, but I find a sort-of sad looking older professional men irresistible. Too busy with work to care about love. I want to distract a lonely businessman with my love…

    Anyway, I have a babyface; I’m not really sure if I could lie about my age and get away with it.

    The oldest guys that flirt back with me are mid-twenties. It’s the thirty-something guys that are hesitant of younger women.

  27. Doug1 says:

    They are VASTLY soft soaping the decline in fertility beginning in the mid 20s actually but really getting going after 30, the increase in miscarriage rate with age, and the increase of birth defects with age.

    Of women trying to get pregnant, without using fertility drugs or in vitro fertilization:

    At age 30, 75% will get pregnant within one year, and 91% within four years.
    At age 35, 66% will get pregnant within one year, and 84% within four years.
    At age 40, 44% will get pregnant within one year, and 64% within four years.[12]

    The above figures are for pregnancies ending in a live birth and take into account the increasing rates of miscarriage in the aging population. According to the March of Dimes, “about 9 percent of recognised pregnancies for women aged 20 to 24 ended in miscarriage. The risk rose to about 20 percent at age 35 to 39, and more than 50 percent by age 42″.[13]

    Birth defects, especially those involving chromosome number and arrangement, also increase with the age of the mother. According to the March of Dimes, “At age 25, a woman has about a 1-in-1,250 chance of having a baby with Down syndrome; at age 30, a 1-in-1,000 chance; at age 35, a 1-in-400 chance; at age 40, a 1-in-100 chance; and at 45, a 1-in-30 chance.”[14]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility#Female_fertility

  28. sean says:

    I can only relate my story. You think getting a career is pushed in society be a black woman from a middle class 2parent home. OMG!! I was going down the career is everything path when God did an intervention on me. When I graduated college most of my mentors were not married, successful career women who I was modeling my life after. Only one of my mentors was married and she was delaying childbirth until her career was in a better position. At the time I was young and really didn’t think about their ages. Fast forward five years. I met these women and they were having babies out of wedlock at 40 b/c they couldn’t find a good man now that their career was at a place they could afford to have children. My married friend had her first baby at 45 and her second at 47. Her 20 something marriage was on the rocks b/c they had spent so much time alone her husband was having trouble adjusting. I saw the writing on the wall, having to have a baby by myself in my 40’s???? having to have a baby by myself with no husband?? It was like cold water had been poured over me at 24 and I decided right then and there a career was not worth all that. I got about the business of finding a husband immediately. I told my now husband on our first date I was looking to get married and if he wasn’t ready to get married not to ask me out again. To be fair it wasn’t just him any guy I dated I let know I wanted marriage. Three dates after our initial date he asked me to be his exclusive girlfriend. I told him he had a year to figure it out & ask me to marry or we would need to break up so I could find my husband. 11 months later he asked me to marry him. By the way he was 24 and I was 27 when we got married. Don’t believe younger guys won’t commit they just need to be challenged.

  29. Brendan says:

    Anyway, I have a babyface; I’m not really sure if I could lie about my age and get away with it.

    The oldest guys that flirt back with me are mid-twenties. It’s the thirty-something guys that are hesitant of younger women.

    Ah.

    I think that particular age gap (19 F and mid-30s M) is going to attract a lot of negative attention for both people. It’s not wrong, per se, but age gap relationships tend to be more accepted when the (typically younger) woman is not quite so young and the gap is smaller. In other words, 19 and 24 wouldn’t be looked at by most people (some would still comment on it, but not most) … as the man slides up to the later 20s eyebrows will be raised and comments may be made (some jokingly and some not) and as he edges over thirty, a lot of negative attention will come from that age gap, from men and women alike. So my guess is that the guys find you attractive but probably consider you to be “off limits” from a “respectability” point of view.

    The eyebrow raising doesn’t end as you get older, but the gap tolerance widens a bit. A woman who is 35 won’t raise eyebrows by dating or marrying a guy in his early or even mid 40s, but would raise some eyebrows if he was around 50.

  30. Anonymous says:

    Dalrock – I understand the warning to the younger women to avoid this path, and the warning to mentors/society to quit giving this advice, but for the single women in their early thirties that have previously bought into the standard make-yourself-interesting-and-have-a-career mentality (but not the sex in the city mentality) and since realized it’s a bunch of crap, what is your suggestion to them? We could use some honest advice. I realize it’s a very unenviable position, but assuming good intentions and kind demeanor, what’s the best that can be done with what we have?

    [D: Great question, which of course makes it difficult. I'll take a shot at it tomorrow when I have a break. There is no shortage of kind and wise folks commenting here so perhaps someone else will nail it before I have a chance to weigh in.]

  31. Uncle Elmer says:

    Left unsaid here is the other ominous demographic working against these ladies : foreign brides.

    As my raucous 40s were winding down I felt the need for matrimonial companionship. So I went to vietnam and found a chaste bride to spend my golden years with. She’s totally hot and get this, loves to cook.

    Parting thought, ladies, clean up your potty mouths because men cannot abide a woman who swears.

  32. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Brendan:

    Why would a middle aged man have a problem with another middle aged man dating a younger chick? Feminist shills? Jealousy?

    I don’t want to date a mid-twenties guy that wants to party, I want to date a thirty-something year old looking to settle down!

    FYI; I live in NYC. It’s full of lonely businessmen that don’t have time to bother with the messed up modern dating scene. It’s just whenever I try to hit on one they get all confused. It’s like they think dating a younger chick is a sin.

    …I think I need to get a haircut; some angles and layers might make me look older.

  33. Brendan says:

    Why would a middle aged man have a problem with another middle aged man dating a younger chick? Feminist shills? Jealousy?

    It’s a combination of messaging in the broader culture that screams at men that they should seek peer-aged partners (i.e., within +/- 5 years at the most and the narrower the more acceptable), and that if they do not they are insecure and looking for someone to “dominate” because of the age differential (which is construed to be a power differential as well). The messaging is amplified, or de-amplified by (1) the actual gap and (2) the absolute age of the woman involved.

    I’m sure that individual jealousy plays some role as well for some of the men who would raise eyebrows at this, but it’s a much broader set of socially-imposed ideas that lead to it, most of which are not conditioned by individual jealousy.

  34. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Brendan [...sorry for all the questions; I hope I'm not being annoying]:

    Um, aren’t men supposed to be the dominating partner? Like, in a heterosexual relationship they are the de facto leader?

    I don’t want to be on completely equal terms with a partner. That sounds so juvenile. I’m not a toddler crying because I didn’t get presents at my siblings birthday party. “Don’t be afraid to ask me to do your laundry” – because it’s starting to sound like men are afraid to ask women to do, well, womanly things!

    Why do I have to be a native NYer? I need to move out of this city and meet a cute traditional Christian man or something. Obviously all the guys here are feminist shills. No wonder they are so lonely!

  35. MrLettuce says:

    “Sorry gentlemen, she’s not on the market right now for anything serious. Uncommitted sex is ok, but don’t waste your time with her if you want commitment. However sometime down the road she will be more than happy to make you an accessory to her fabulous life.”

    This line. This line right here is so on the money, Dalrock. So many women I’ve dated follow this philosophy. “I don’t want anything serious right now, Mister Dependable Beta, but will gladly jump into the sack with Mr. Exciting Alpha. When I’m done finding myself, I may-possibly-could-be-maybe give you the time of day”.

    On the flipside, there are a decent number of women out there who are looking for love AND starting a career at the same time.

    The downside? When they find a good, dependable man, they grab a hold of him. And do not let go.

    So guys, looks are important in a lady, but so is honor and loyalty.

    @Grerp

    “Children pay the price for all this female narcissism”

    Honestly Grerp, children most often pay the price for our collective foolishness.

    As a teacher, it astounds me how some people can treat children so poorly. Children,
    our most valuable commodity, are always hurt the worst. Our society cannot survive without a stable supply of mentally/physically-healthy children.

    By your writing, I can tell how hurt you are by those local stories of child abuse. I’ll be sure to say a prayer for them next week at Mass.

  36. Brendan says:

    Why do I have to be a native NYer? I need to move out of this city and meet a cute traditional Christian man or something. Obviously all the guys here are feminist shills. No wonder they are so lonely!

    NYC is bad for that, I’d agree. I think some men are willing to break out of that paradigm (commenter Doug1 is one) even there, but it’s a feminist world in NYC.

  37. Anonymous says:

    Paige said: “The ex-slut post-30 woman has been exposed to HPV and other STDS, possibly had one or several abortions, and has adjusted to alpha sexual relationships to the extent that the typical beta marrying type will not satisfy their need to be used and abused…has only distorted their persona through indulgence in vice rather than learn to understand themselves.”

    You said it… even into their forties nowadays. The Rationalization Hamster just keeps going and going worse than the Energizer Bunny. Know a woman who’s 49, with several divorces, still being pumped-and-dumped by slightly older cads who can still get away with it. WTF, people?!

  38. OneSTDV says:

    Here’s two celebrities who followed this path (one of whom made such a lifestyle notorious):

    http://au.ibtimes.com/articles/129406/20110401/sex-and-the-city-s-kim-cattrall-lashes-out-at-reporters.htm

    Cattrall said, “Ask me about being a woman. Do you know what it’s like to be 54 and marginalized? It doesn’t get easier as you get older.”

    http://www.usmagazine.com/momsbabies/news/kate-walsh-i-feel-like-a-loser-for-not-having-kids-yet-2011213

    “I feel like a loser,” the 43-year-old Private Practice star tells April’s More magazine. “I would definitely love to be a parent. I thought I’d be married and have three or four kids.”

  39. GJNM says:

    BF: There’s a calculation that’ll tell you the minimum age of the women a man can pursue without looking unserious or deluded: half his age, plus seven years.

    Work through a few examples and you’ll see this is a fairly accurate guide: Calculating backwards, subtract seven years from your age and double the result. If you’re 19, men under 25 can pursue you without looking like they’re only interested in having sex with you. Guys past their mid-twenties will understand this intuitively, and those who aren’t PUAs will care. This is exactly what you’ve observed.

    By this convention, your target group — sad-eyed thirty-something professional men who want to settle down — won’t jump to the conclusion that they’re just what you’re really looking for. They’re going to think something like “No good can come of this” and take a pass; if you want to persuade them, they’ll need to become sure that you’re an unusual woman instead of a strange one.

    Better still, for every year you age, the age of the (serious) men who will accept you as age-appropriate goes up by two. Soon enough, guys with eyes that have stared into the abyss will look at you and think of home.

  40. “However sometime down the road she will be more than happy to make you an accessory to her fabulous life.”

    Yeah, like I want to be just an accessory.

    “It is NOT us. It’s you people — you men and your wayward penises. Megs and I have spent enough time with you all to come to the depressingly stark conclusion that at our ages, there are simply no acceptable men to date.”

    Those harridans at Date me, DC! still don’t understand that after a certain age, men have figured out the scene and women must actually offer something of value besides sex.

  41. CSPB says:

    @Butterfly Flower

    Possibly you might find a man among the Sandhogs. There are even some educated men among them and some smart sons of Sandhogs that get engineering degrees but return to the underground. That is a traditional group of men that have a long tradition of family continuity. They make decent money and are not caught up in credentialism. Also men working with men tends to develop the masculine. So if that is your goal, find a job at one of their hang-outs and mingle.

    Your questions are cute and show naivete. The difference with you is that you show the intelligence to ask the questions while most women don’t. Much of the truth is counter-intuitive. Game explains why men and women act in ways that seem to not make sense. It takes time to figure these things out. But I don’t think this is reason to delay pursuit of marriage. Just keep your count low because your SMP value is high.

  42. Doomed Harlot says:

    I think it’s wrong to tell women (or men, but this post is about women, so I’ll talk about women) that there is any one, definitive right way to approach starting a family. There are pros and cons, and trade-offs REGARDLESS of what approach you take. So it has to be a highly personal, idiosyncratic decision.

    The mind-set of “ZOMG!!!! Your fertility is already declining in your mid-20s you’d better starting making babies NOW!” can lead to settling for the wrong man just to settle and fast, and it can lead to career sacrifice resulting in an unwanted dependence on said wrong man. On the other hand, the mind-set of, “NEVER ever marry until your 30,” can lead to waiting too long, never finding someone, or never being able to have one’s own biological child. What risks a woman is willing to take is her own business.

    Or to put a more positive spin on it — marrying young and having babies doesn’t always mean the death knell of one’s career or future happiness, but waiting doesn’t necessarily mean no husband or babies. And not having a husband and babies ain’t the end of the world. It’s all good.

    Life is, in many ways, a crap shoot. There are lot of variables one cannot control — like meeting the right guy who likes you back, or being fertile. So why not relax and enjoy the ride whatever happens?

    Yes, I married in my mid-20s, but I wasn’t LOOKING to marry. If I hadn’t stumbled into love, I would be writign this comment about how much I love being single at 40. Yes, I knew going in that husband had fertility issues and that we would need medical intervention to have a child. And, yes, I knowingly postponed that until now. Maybe that means no baby because (in the immortal words of comedian Wanda Sykes), “I old.” But you know, hub and I just weren’t ready before now and sometimes that’s just the way life shakes out.

    Long story short — I favor mellowing out about women’s reproductive and marital choices. I have never met a woman who is UNAWARE of the ol’ biological clock (it’s a huge staple of popular culture, no?) and I think women are perfectly capable of making intelligtent choices that further their own best interests* from whatever options are in front of them.

    *Of course, I think what a woman’s “best interests” are up to her to define.

    [D: I think we are in full agreement on this one. Tell women and men the unvarnished facts and let them decide what is best for themselves.]

  43. Flavia says:

    “There’s some truth, I think, to what they write. The reason for that is that many people — male and female alike — simply are not “settled” as personas until they are around 30. The “find myself” period of self-exploration has been bumped up into the late 20s for men and women alike, and many people change a *lot* between the time they graduate college (~22) and the time they are 29-30. ”

    I think this is just one of those memes that gets thrown around without much thought. It is just part of the Western zeitgeist to use your 20s to “find yourself” (as an aside, its best to ignore meaningless abstract-isms). However, we change throughout our lives. The person you were at 45 and at 75 will be completely different. You change from 30 to 40 to 50 and beyond. The same argument that is made to deter marriage in your 20s could be made in your 30s and 40s. I mean, you’ll make more money in your 30s, now is the time to take more lavish “me” time, really pamper yourself.

    The teens and 20s are an idealized time in our culture, probably because they have come to represent the values our elites have been trying to push on us: selfishness, indulgence, vice, promiscuity, consumerism. But at some point, biology takes over and millions of years of evolution say: REPLICATE REPLICATE!! Alas, sometimes it is too late.

    There has been nothing more beautiful than growing up with my husband. I met him when I was 21 and a feral crazy creature- although much better adjusted, he was no grown up. Of course we have changed. We no longer binge drink the night away at clubs and subsist on Fudgecicles and Ramen. I was fully able to grow as a person, be adventurous, travel the world with my partner, and I think I became a much better person because of him. He didn’t stunt me, he helped me grow.

    Feminists are so stupid. Nonsensical nonsense. Useless memes. Fucking nonsense. Nary a thought to the real world.

  44. Amirantes says:

    It seems more than a bit silly to gamble on the wrong side of one’s fertility curve. Gambling on the way up is not symmetric to gambling on the way down, if one considers the evolutionary consequences (to your genetic line) of a gamble going wrong.

    I don’t know where I read this, but I remember someone once asking a scientist to defend an outrageous theory of his (outrageous because it offended the common sensibilities of the time) and the scientist’s response was more or less, “I don’t have to defend anything. The theory will defend itself quite well without my help … just wait and see.”

    I feel that story has a bit of relevance here. We only have to wait to see what happens to the women who buy into the Last Aisle advice: do they have far fewer kids than those that don’t? (less than replacement?). Then ipso facto it will have proven to be a barren philosophy…

  45. Pingback: Last one down the aisle wins part 2: The data. | Dalrock

  46. There are other factors to consider besides age. We married in our very early twenties, and I’m actually 21 months older than my husband. Neither of us was college educated and neither of us grew up in wealthy families. Of course, we didn’t know what we didn’t have until we were older, but we were both definitely lower working class.

    I think the defining factor of our success, at 17 years and counting is a shared faith, followed very closely by the fact that we were raised in intact families where marriage vows were taken seriously. We both had families where the traditional understanding of marriage (the man is the head of the house) was front and center. Both our mothers worked but the dynamic was crystal clear. Never mind the fact that marriage in the black community has never been ideal.

    My husband brother and his wife married when she was 18. He was 20. By all accounts that marriage should have been doomed, but they are very, very happy. They’re celebrating 20 years next month.

    You can have all your ducks in a row on paper, but if you were raised by parents who had a crappy marriage or who didn’t even bother to try and stay married, I would think the chances of a divorce increase markedly.

  47. Doomed Harlot says:

    Amirantes, You’re right, if preserving your genetic line is your primary measure of success. Surely, passing along your genes is the measure of biological success, but it’s not necessarily the measure of human success.

    I’d like to have a kid because I think, after working hard all my life, I have a lot to offer a child. It seems like a waste not to use the grace and maturity I’ve cultivated with blood, sweat and tears over the decades to try to raise a happy, confident new human. It’s like passing along the good things that have been given to one. But, I have no thought that my genes are so special that the human race NEEDS to have my genes in its pool. While that may be a biological imperative, it has nothing to do with my personal needs as a human being — which are more along the lines of cultivating happy relationships, mastering various talents, contributing to society, and having a voice in the public square.

  48. Flavia says:

    “Surely, passing along your genes is the measure of biological success, but it’s not necessarily the measure of human success.”

    The paradox is that it is an eternal shame for the attributes that led to such human success to never be propagated.

    It’s just like the environmentalists imposing a one child policy on themselves- which will in turn leave us with no conservationists.

    My darling, beautiful compatriota and avatar, Evola, died childless. It is a tragedy. If we are to subsidize anyone, it should be the extraordinary.

  49. Kaei says:

    I think it’s a nice change to look at having an enjoyable life while you’re single but still having a good marriage afterwards, but doing it via delusion doesn’t help.
    Why can’t more women just accept the truth? It’s okay to choose career over marriage, and to choose career over parenthood – you just need to accept that it is a choice, and if you choose to prioritize your career, other areas will suffer. If you consider the options and decide that you’d rather have a solid career than children, that’s fine – people are not all fulfilled by the same thing. What is a problem is when people choose to prioritize one area, and then seem surprised when other areas suffer.
    Women have been sold a false line in ‘you can have it all’.

    People who would rather see professional success than reproductive success could always donate reproductively so that others could make use of their good genes..

    (hi, I’m new. enjoying the website and the thought involved.)

    [D: Thanks, and welcome!]

  50. Doomed Harlot says:

    Conservationism is genetic?

  51. Kaei says:

    Conservationism isn’t genetic, it’s nurtured – mostly by parents. What you are raised to see as ‘normal’ has a big influence on how you’ll take new information later. So a reasonable concern.
    But smart environmentalists will aim to teach children who won’t get it at home. And that is certainly possible.

  52. Brendan says:

    However, we change throughout our lives. The person you were at 45 and at 75 will be completely different. You change from 30 to 40 to 50 and beyond. The same argument that is made to deter marriage in your 20s could be made in your 30s and 40s.

    Except that, in my own experience, at 43, I can say that in my own life and in my observations of others, people change less and less each decade. That is, sure, people change, but the rate and degree of change is quite different. The difference between people who are 40 and 50 is not at all the same as the difference between people who are 20 and 30. On average, and leaving outliers aside, you change more in your 2os than you do in your thirties and less in your thirties than you do in your forties and so on. People *do* become settled in terms of persona, but often not until the late 20s or around 3o in this culture.

  53. Kaei says:

    @ Butterfly Flower
    Yes, it is kinda creepy for a 30+ year old man to be dating a 19-year-old. Even if you are fairly mature, you might still come across as naive, and if you’re 19 and look 16, a guy doesn’t want to look like he’s dating his daughter.
    But it’s not like you have an expiry date at 21 – keep improving yourself, and in a couple years when you look a little older, and the acceptable age gap broadens a bit, you’ll have your pick.
    Nothing wrong with waiting a little..

  54. Brendan says:

    That is less in your forties than in your thirties.

  55. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    Paige said: “The ex-slut post-30 woman has been exposed to HPV and other STDS, possibly had one or several abortions…”

    Yes, and that’s NO REASON TO JUDGE HER! At least according to feminist blogs and those “slut walks.”

  56. rob says:

    Fertility and the attraction changes which accompany carousel riding aside, this really brings up the question of what they think Mr. Right will do while waiting to become an accessory in her fabulous life. Why won’t he marry one of her peers in the meantime who is more serious about marriage? Or if he waits, why will he want to marry her in her 30s when he can marry a woman in her 20s? This is of course assuming he doesn’t drop out or become a player, both of which are also likely outcomes. I don’t think they really address this…

    Lots of young women think that a man should be an will be attracted to women in his age range. Who could blame them. From 14-18, they were mostly in high school, the adult men around would get to spend decades in prison after a relationship, so the dudes tend not to pursue. In college they learn how to let the hamster run, and won’t change. Plus, every day they see men in 30’s or 40’s with wives about their age.

    For women who aging out of attractiveness or looking for a provider for another reason, they might see women who are the marrying kind and in the bloom of youth as a threat. Susan Walsh has found feminists talking about how they wish all the other women had herpes so there’ed be less stigma. IIRC, she found a chick commenting that it sucked that men ‘judged’ her on her promiscuous past, and she wished all women would slut it up for a while so she’d be on even footing. I’m sure Ms. Walsh would be able to find the posts if someone asked nicely.

    If a woman is about to ride the carousel into the Wall, and works in publishing, what might she do? I know! She could write a book targeted to women in their twenties encouraging them to ride the carousel instead of coming to her pond and fishing for a husband with better bait. Then all her BFFs who spent their twenties in media and having a good time, they could use media influence to promote that book like crazy. I don’t think that could ever happen though.

    Generally feminists have not thought clearly about how men’s behavior would change in response to what women did. Single motherhood looked like a great idea, mom would have fewer domestic duties, and dad would still work hard and provide. They thought that because that’s what dads did. As far as upper-middle class women were concerned, ‘Deadbeat’ dads came out of nowhere. Women who experiences included men who were less interested in paternal investment weren’t good at math, and said roughly, ‘a few percent of men have always been terrible fathers.’ Not really getting that three percent is not quite the same as 80%.

    The professional-managerial class women didn’t know there were men who wanted to bang a new chick over buying diapers back then, and if they did, they thought changing incentives wouldn’t create cads. They truly don’t see marginal men dropping out in large numbers as a possibility: men always worked and climbed hierarchies before. The ones who know about ‘ghosting’ more than likely look on it as a plus. No more creepy guys to LJBF.

  57. Julie says:

    I read this book–a lot of it rang true for me. I married at 29–had my babies at 32 and 34. Thankfully I had no fertility issues, but I understand many people do in their thirties. I think they are pushing it too far to say people should be 30 by the time they marry, however, I believe for many people, there is wisdom in waiting until the mid-twenties at least. I have friends who married at 19 and they have healthy, happy marriages. If I’d married the boyfriend I had at 19, I think we’d be unhappy and possibly divorced. My own parents had a bad marriage and I had a LOT to learn about how to identify a healthy partner and build a healthy relationship. For whatever reason, it just took a lot of time/counseling/trial and error to get there. I would have liked to marry earlier but I’m happy I got married at all, and so so so grateful that it looks like I’ll have a lifelong marriage.

  58. Viliam Búr says:

    @Butterfly Flower
    Why would a middle aged man have a problem with another middle aged man dating a younger chick? Feminist shills? Jealousy?

    The only danger I see is this: If the girl is still at school, she is surrounded daily by too many guys. Her market value is still growing; the older man’s is probably already at his top now. High risk she may change her mind. (Of course, there is always a risk of someone changing their mind, but later in their lives most women don’t spend whole days among hundreds of horny boys while their partner is at work.) The risk is less if she is finishing the school or has finished one, and does not plan to start another.

    For a man say 35 years old dating (not marrying yet) a 19 years old girl brings the risk that if a break up happens 5 years later, well… the age penalties for men may be much softer than for women, but they still exist. And if the girl wants to have a university degree, they will have to wait. (Even if she does not, the man may assume that she does.)

    Otherwise, I think men would not have problem with this. The pressure comes from women. (Not only feminists!) Because the youth is an important factor in woman beauty, older women feel threatened by younger women. One way to remove their fear is to create a rationalization (and try to enforce a social convention) that men should feel attracted only to women their age, because younger women are like children to them… which makes older man attracted to young women, well, like pedophiles. Shaming is a strong social tool, especially when used by women.

  59. Pingback: Advice to a woman in her 30s looking to marry. | Dalrock

  60. Doug1 says:

    Butterfly Flower-

    Whenever I try to flirt with older guys they don’t take me seriously. They treat me like a smitten schoolgirl. “Awh, aren’t you cute…”

    I’m attractive but men are writing me off because I’m too young [I'm nineteen].

    Be up front about being a lot more attracted to older guys.

    Also, older women sneer at me when I try to flirt with older guys. I don’t like getting sneered at so I feel very uncomfortable. Like I’m the odd person in the room everyone hates…

    I wonder: are men afraid to date younger women? Are they stigmatized for it?

    In a word, yes.

    Brendan’s right that it’s about a by now deeply engrained feminist meme that it’s evil and predatory for a man to date a girl a whole hell of a lot younger than himself. Though that’s much stronger when the girl isn’t past college age. It’s the feminist meme that male / female power differentials, especially large one’s, are evil and approaching immoral when it’s a 30 something guy and a “technically” legal age teen.

    However it would be a whole lot less of an issue if you were 22 instead of 19 and a graduate of a good university. (I’m talking re: professional type early 30s guys here.) Especially if you had a good starting level job. There would still be teasing and a sense of unseemliness on the part of many women in their early thirties and older, but if the guy has good social skills it would be something that he could handle. Actually the hotter you are the easier it would be for him to be able to handle well, socially. Power differential. My live together girlfriend is more than 15 years younger than I am. But then I’m several years older than Brendan. We handle it fine. But it does take handling and it doesn’t work with all women.

    Hell there was a semi scandal several months ago, that died down fairly quickly, when the news media got wind that a NY Jets quarterback dated a 17 yo girl several times. 17 is of legal age in the three states they could have had liaisons, her CT, his NJ, and where they met, NY. When it develop that she’s from a rich family the scandal lessened. That he’s a football player and not a corporate lawyer lessened it too – rakishness is rather expected. Getting the cultural drift here?

    Many people regard college age girls as the preserve of college age guys or possibly grad students, but that’s it. Sort of an extension of the same stronger feeling about high school aged girls. Well there are statutory rape laws fencing that last garden off. 19, especially if you aren’t in college but even if you are, would really be damaging in most professions and corporate type jobs for a guy in his early thirties if that got around. Or it could be. His “judgment” would be questioned. Well not so much if you were a successful model or actress. Again, the issue is feminist sensibilites about power differentials being unseemly if they’re too great in the man’s direction. That’s generally not articulated exactly or even part of conscious though. It’s just considered “predatory” because the guy “can’t deal with women who are his equals”. This has seeped through our whole culture. It’s a shared sensibility through the entertainment media etc. including among many decidedly non feminist guys and women.

  61. Kai says:

    It’s not just a feminist mind trick.
    The average nineteen-year-old girl and the average thirty-five-year-old man really are on completely different levels.
    That doesn’t mean that there can’t be exceptions, but it does mean that the exceptions are going to be seen as a little odd, and might have to be proven reasonable.

  62. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Doug1:

    Thank you. I appreciate your detailed reply to my post.

    I believe everything you said; although I find it very disheartening. I am a sophisticated young woman; why do I have to be grouped in the same category as sorority bimbos?

    Also, would a boss really judge an employee based on the physical appearance/age of their significant other? I’ll still look quite youthful at 22. I’m beautiful but that just means I have to deal with unnecessary snide comments from other women.

    It’s starting to look like the SMP is an “everyone loses!” situation. My problems seem so illogical. I’m being stigmatized for all the things that make a woman desirable. I guess I’m pursuing a hopeless endeavor. No sad eyed businessmen for me :(

  63. Lavazza says:

    Butterfly Flower: I once went on a date with a 19 YO Slovak au pair girl when I was 42. I had met her at a language course and we both found each other entertaining. But nothing much happened. She seemed a bit scared of me having much more experience and success in the world and I was not able to downplay that enough for her to fell comfortable.

  64. Viliam Búr says:

    @Butterfly Flower
    My problems seem so illogical. I’m being stigmatized for all the things that make a woman desirable.

    If you realize that you are perceived as a dangerous competitor, it will make sense. Sometimes people help you, other times they harm you. If you have an advantage against other people, they may try to bring you down. It happens in other areas of life too. Any success brings hatred from part of your competitors.

    First time it often catches you unaware, because you do not see yourself as the others see you. You probably see yourself as average; but this is only because you do not fully understand your value. In the eyes of others (for example a spinster in her 40s) you already have so much advantage that it feels unfair; if they could, they would probably kill you. This is why you need a man who will resist their pressure. Because the pressure will not stop, ever.

    I hope you will succeed in your dreams and have a happy life. But there is always a price for happy life; an envy you will face from the less happy ones. Some people will always hate you for something: because you are young, because you are smart, because you are happy, later because you have a happy marriage, good kids, etc. Get used to it, because you want to be happy. (The other choice is to be a loser, so that no one envies you.) You will have to recognize and avoid some toxic people.

  65. TLIMS says:

    Regarding big age differences, our society’s uncomfortable with it for 2 main reasons (OK, perhaps 3);
    1- We spend most of our time, especially during our earlier years, in age-segregated settings like school.
    2- We independently select who we marry based *on our own personal criteria* as opposed to in the past (or elsewhere in the world) where marriages were (semi) arranged by parents/family.
    3- The age of consent regarding sex, fear of pedophilia, etc.

    Within my family (immigrants) the age differences in couples of the previous generation/s (including my parents) was about a decade. With frequent multi-age settings, people shared a common culture.
    However, from the 1st-generation of Americans onward, most of us have married our same-age peers.

  66. TLIMS says:

    Forgot to add that….
    3- The age of consent regarding sex, fear of pedophilia, etc.
    because of the concerns above, it somehow carries out throughout even when the girl is of age.

  67. Norm says:

    Butterfly Flower. When I was 30 I had a young girl 16 who was interested in me. I “looked” younger than 30 and she acted more mature than the average 16 year old. I stayed on good terms with her and was never involved in a relationship in anyway.
    I suppose the men in their 30s are a little bit suspicious of you. They may think you want them for their $$$ or they been burnt before. Don’t give up. I like how these career women get testy with you. My friends daughter since she was a teen always said she will marry an older man. Her dad said he doesn’t have a problem with that as long as he loves her and cares for her. Haven’t seen them for a number of years so I don’t know how she is doing.

  68. Kai says:

    Butterfly Flower:
    We are always judged unfairly by those around us instead of by our personal merits. It pissed me off at your age as well. I wasn’t interested in marriage or dating older men, but I was interested in having things I said being treated as worth consideration instead of dismissed as childish. The best things you can do is to get into situations where age seems less of an issue. In places where a variety of ages exist, people are more open to interacting with each other on even ground despite the age difference. Look for these places – don’t hang out with people your age if they feel immature to you, and don’t put yourself in places where you are ten years younger than the next person.
    There’s not much you can do about looking even younger than you are other than wait a couple years. But making sure that your mouth and your actions don’t match your looks goes a long way. Avoid the speech mannerisms of the college crowd, and don’t act your age.
    A lot of it also comes with time. You’re not going to have a man who is 30+ take you seriously as a romantic prospect on first glance. So try for situations where you can take some time and get to know the people around. Once people get to spend some time getting to know you, they are more open judging you on your actions instead of your young looks.
    I’ve always looked young. I notice that people who guess my age right away on meeting me tend to guess I’m a few years younger than I am (and it used to be way younger). People who get to know me or work with me for a while without ever knowing my age and then guess tend to guess me a good few years older than I am.
    Put yourself in situations where you will be given that time to show you are not just another moronic 19-year-old.
    Yes, it sucks to be judged by the sex and alcohol crowd, but you can better your chances now, and you can grow out of it.
    It’s also not the end of the world to have to wait a couple years. Don’t be too desperate about it. Look at it as training time for what you want. It’s okay if no 30+ man wants to marry you at nineteen – you’re not going to expire in a year! Spend some time on self-improvement, and use the time to make yourself an even better catch, and in a few years when you look a little older and the acceptable gap is a little bigger, you’ll find it much easier – and you may have worked yourself into an even better position.

  69. Steve Johnson says:

    Butterfly flower:

    Social pressure is a probably a large part of why you’re not being subtly turned down when you try to flirt with older professional men but there are other possible reasons as well.

    Most guys experience a decline in the urgency of pursuit of women in their mid to late 30s. The guys who are still single at this point are likely out of the market and unfamiliar with flirting due to either having some sort of long standing relationship with a woman or simply having given up. Actually flirting with a young pretty girl is likely to be painful for the (sad eyed) type you seem to be interested in – it gets hopes that took a long time to quell active again with only a slim possibility of actually fulfilling them. Because of that, I’d bet that many of these guys are reluctant to either believe that you’re flirting with them or reluctant to believe that your flirting is due to sincere interest.

    In a completely different direction, it could be something else entirely. You say you’re sophisticated and intelligent but you’re still 19 – there could be a vast gulf between what you are and what you project. The amount I now know I didn’t know when I was 19 is staggering when I look back on it.

    As it happens, I am a late 30s professional living in NYC (not sad eyed though – a bit more mischievous eyed). If you live in Manhattan I’d like to get together for coffee with you. We could talk and I’ll certainly be willing to tell you if something you’re doing that you’re not aware of might be off-putting.

  70. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Mr. Johnson:

    While I appreciate your offer, mischievous is an adjective I prefer to avoid. That one word set off “PUA” warning bells and my instincts are usually correct.

    …unless you are a sad eyed professional hiding behind a veneer of mischief?

  71. Steve Johnson says:

    I didn’t say I’d be your sad eyed businessman. I offered to meet up to see if I could find out how you’re scaring them off. Hmm, too forward maybe?

    …and yeah, I don’t really believe in showing sadness to the world. If I’ve got more than one look and one of them is mischievous, I’ll show that. You really do become the expression you wear. Sadness is cute when you’re young (because you’ve got so much more of life ahead of you) but is a real burden to carry when you live with it for years. Guys who are late 30s, single and look sad really do have a bleak future.

    You can call me Steve, btw. No need to be so formal with my fake internet name.

  72. Butterfly Flower says:

    I didn’t say I’d be your sad eyed businessman. I offered to meet up to see if I could find out how you’re scaring them off. Hmm, too forward maybe?

    …and yeah, I don’t really believe in showing sadness to the world. If I’ve got more than one look and one of them is mischievous, I’ll show that. You really do become the expression you wear. Sadness is cute when you’re young (because you’ve got so much more of life ahead of you) but is a real burden to carry when you live with it for years. Guys who are late 30s, single and look sad really do have a bleak future.

    You can call me Steve, btw. No need to be so formal with my fake internet name.

    …so you’re all alone but you’ve come to terms with the sadness and loneliness? You’ve moved past those feelings of despair?

    Anyway, I already know why I’m scaring off older businessmen; I look like I’m fifteen. I think most men agree that jailbait is the wrong tree to bark up, no matter how attractive the girl may be.

  73. Stephenie Rowling says:

    Anyway, I already know why I’m scaring off older businessmen; I look like I’m fifteen. I think most men agree that jailbait is the wrong tree to bark up, no matter how attractive the girl may be.

    You seem to be very smart for your age. That probably can work to your advantage on the right setting, like joining a book club or picking a book store, or any other setting you know the men that interest you are attending and becoming a regular, most men feel more confident when they had seen the woman a couple of times and can find a excuse that looks innocent enough to approach.

    I will also advice you to pay attention to men closer to your age. Is true that few young men will have the qualities you are looking for but chances are that if you find one and show interest if he has any idea how hard is to find a woman like you, he might decide to secure you now with commitment than to venture on the shark infested areas of dating. So keep your eyes open while you wait to look more mature. One never knows.
    I wish you luck on life and love. :)

  74. Steve Johnson says:

    …so you’re all alone but you’ve come to terms with the sadness and loneliness? You’ve moved past those feelings of despair?

    Despair is far too strong – I haven’t exactly been lonely (you’re not far off in sensing that mischievous eyes mean trouble).

    Some regret for the path not chosen is more like it. I’ve got a 7 month old nephew and his arrival has made me a bit reflective.

  75. Butterfly Flower says:

    You’ve been reflecting paths not chosen….i.e. marriage and fatherhood?

    Why don’t you try to pursue a relationship with one of your paramours? You must have formed some meaningful connections; unless I was right when I said your mischief was just a means to hide an intense feelings of loneliness.

  76. Steve Johnson says:

    You’ve been reflecting paths not chosen….i.e. marriage and fatherhood?

    Yes.

    As far as my paramours go, those aren’t really stories I want to tell in comment sections on the internet. Some of them would have made good wives and mothers but I think if I were to consider fatherhood and marriage it’d have to be with someone younger.

    How about you? Why guys in their 30s? Why NYC? It doesn’t seem like it’s very good for your goal of marriage and motherhood.

  77. Butterfly Flower says:

    How about you? Why guys in their 30s? Why NYC? It doesn’t seem like it’s very good for your goal of marriage and motherhood.

    I was born and raised in NYC; I didn’t specifically move here. I realize it’s possibly the worst place for a girl with traditional pursuits; however, this is all I’ve ever known. I’m not sure if I have the courage to leave just yet. Maybe in a few years.

    I flirt with middle aged professionals because I’m more likely to run into middle aged professionals. ….and did I mention I find their sad eyes attractive?

    As far as my paramours go, those aren’t really stories I want to tell in comment sections on the internet. Some of them would have made good wives and mothers but I think if I were to consider fatherhood and marriage it’d have to be with someone younger.

    You used past tense; so you’re not interacting with these women anymore?

    How old were they? I mean, mid 30’s isn’t that awful. As long as you have some money set aside for fertility treatments just in case.

    No offense, but a traditional young lady would be turned off by your mischievous past. How would she know you wouldn’t commit those types of indiscretions while married? Heck, how would she know if you’re even telling the truth about wanting to marry and start a family?

    You’d have to prove your sincerity; that’s a difficult task that requires a lot of time and effort.

    …actually, proving your sincerity only really matters if you’re looking for a marriage minded young lady without a past. Although I’m not sure if there’s many marriage minded young ladies with a past.

  78. Steve Johnson says:

    You used past tense; so you’re not interacting with these women anymore?

    Yep.

    No offense, but a traditional young lady would be turned off by your mischievous past. How would she know you wouldn’t commit those types of indiscretions while married? Heck, how would she know if you’re even telling the truth about wanting to marry and start a family?

    None taken. Right back at you though – what exactly do you think a man over 35 has been doing his whole life? Either the guy is going to have a past or he’ll be someone you wouldn’t want to even be near, never mind talk to. Men aren’t women. Prolonged chastity by a woman is an indicator of impulse control and high standards. If a man’s been chaste or nearly so for 2+ decades since puberty he’s got severe social problems.

    As far as how you can tell if he’s ready to settle down? You’ve got to get to know him. Why hasn’t he settled down yet? What changed? Don’t just ask the questions – you’re a woman, you’ve got plenty of social skills that are designed to find out how guys react to things and what they really think. Use them.

    I was born and raised in NYC; I didn’t specifically move here.

    Same. I’m guessing you’re not a Manhattan girl, so where did you grow up? How are you still here at 19? Stayed local for college?

  79. Butterfly Flower says:

    None taken. Right back at you though – what exactly do you think a man over 35 has been doing his whole life? Either the guy is going to have a past or he’ll be someone you wouldn’t want to even be near, never mind talk to. Men aren’t women. Prolonged chastity by a woman is an indicator of impulse control and high standards. If a man’s been chaste or nearly so for 2+ decades since puberty he’s got severe social problems.

    A few failed long term relationships is different from a Roissy manwhore. I would have difficulty trusting a PUA looking to settle down.


    As far as how you can tell if he’s ready to settle down? You’ve got to get to know him. Why hasn’t he settled down yet? What changed? Don’t just ask the questions – you’re a woman, you’ve got plenty of social skills that are designed to find out how guys react to things and what they really think. Use them.

    …I guess I’d have the man in question take me out on a date? If he’s willing to pay at least 50 bucks a plate with no hope of getting any afterward, then I just might believe him. [If he takes me on a cheap date then I assume he doesn't care too much about first impressions or isn't serious about pursuing a long term relationship...]

    Same. I’m guessing you’re not a Manhattan girl, so where did you grow up? How are you still here at 19? Stayed local for college?

    I wouldn’t feel comfortable answering those questions without knowing more about you :)

  80. Ally says:

    I loved this post! I’m so glad that I stumbled upon it.
    My parents married when they were in their early twenties, still in college. My father was going into the ministry and my mother was a housewife/mother/worked when they really needed money.
    Anyways, they said that their struggle together made them appreciate and respect each other more and produced a strong sense of trust, which makes me believe that one doesn’t have to/should not wait until 30 to get married. She had my older brother at 26, so they spent a good four years having fun and being a new married couple.
    Hopefully I can do the same, although in college, guys who don’t party everyday and smoke dope are hard to come by. But I’m keeping my eyes open!

    [D: Glad you liked it. Welcome.]

  81. Steve Johnson says:

    I wouldn’t feel comfortable answering those questions without knowing more about you :)

    I’ll reiterate my offer Butterfly – let’s meet for a cup of coffee and have a conversation.

    I promise not to be too charming.

  82. Butterfly Flower says:

    I’ll reiterate my offer Butterfly – let’s meet for a cup of coffee and have a conversation.

    I promise not to be too charming.

    I…um…I’ll consider your offer.

    To be honest, I’m not sure if your “expertise” is in an area I should be advised in.


    I promise not to be too charming.

    So you’re presumptuous and mischievous?

    Now those are qualities you shouldn’t necessarily be proud of.

    …I bet you work in publishing; definitely something that has to do with printed media. It seems like a career presumptuous individuals would thrive in.

  83. Steve Johnson says:

    …I bet you work in publishing; definitely something that has to do with printed media.

    Nope.

    Don’t be so presumptuous.

  84. Butterfly Flower says:

    Nope.

    Don’t be so presumptuous.

    Do you at least wear a suit and tie?

    Do you exfoliate?

    Are you a Buffalo Bills fan? [since your internet pseudonym is the name of their wide receiver]. If you are a Buffalo Bills fan, does that mean you schlep all the way up to Buffalo whenever you want to attend a game? Why aren’t you a Jets/Giants fan? Did just use his name because he’s your wide receiver in Fantasy Football?

    *bats eyelashes like Tweety Bird*

  85. Steve Johnson says:

    Jets fan – I’ve had the internet name for longer than Steve Johnson has been in the league.

    Do you at least wear a suit and tie?

    Do you exfoliate?

    Suit and tie yes.

    Exfoliation – why are you worried about how smooth my skin is? All you’ve been offered so far is a cup of coffee and some conversation.

  86. Butterfly Flower says:

    Jets fan – I’ve had the internet name for longer than Steve Johnson has been in the league

    Why do you require a pseudonym in the first place? Is it for any reasons besides typical privacy concerns? What do you do? Now I really want to know!

    Exfoliation – why are you worried about how smooth my skin is? All you’ve been offered so far is a cup of coffee and some conversation.

    …I’m more likely to trust a man that follows a good skin care regimen? *giggles* I was probably teasing you with that question.

    Mr. Johnson, while I’ve enjoyed our banter, I’m probably not gonna be involved in the manosphere anymore. Most of the people in the manosphere kind of seem, well…unhappy and bitter. I haven’t gotten any useful advice. I used to like the quiet Beta types but now I’m not so sure. It took approximately two weeks for me to realize they’re all just whiny brats who don’t bother to try very hard. If they make mistakes or bad judgments, they blame other people [or society] for their mistakes.

    Victim complex isn’t sexy. Healed emotional scars are sexy.

  87. Lavazza says:

    Butterfly Flower: Patience and understanding is sexy too.

    What you are saying is a bit like: Lack of effort or effort without success in unsexy. Only effort with success is sexy. Most people agree, at least to a certain extent. The problem is that most or many also want to be accepted and loved without having to work for it, or at least get appreciation also for unsuccessful efforts.

    You are ahead of the competetition in some aspects, but not all.

  88. Butterfly Flower says:


    Butterfly Flower: Patience and understanding is sexy too.

    What you are saying is a bit like: Lack of effort or effort without success in unsexy. Only effort with success is sexy. Most people agree, at least to a certain extent. The problem is that most or many also want to be accepted and loved without having to work for it, or at least get appreciation also for unsuccessful efforts.

    You are ahead of the competition in some aspects, but not all.

    I’m a chaste, marriage minded young girl. What aspects am I lacking?

    If loved a guy, I’d love him with all my heart. I’d want to married to someone that is smart enough to differentiate my unconditional love from a stupid whore giving noogie.

    It sounds like most of the Betas in the manosphere sit around whining “where are all the good girls?” when they’re just too lazy to bother working for them.

    Nothing worth having ever comes to you easily.

    Good job, manosphere. Instead of teaching me how to find a cute beta, you’ve convinced me they’re all whiny and not worthy of marriage.

    I’m going to go join a Christian Singles forum or dating service. What I need is a nice traditional guy that will appreciate me for who I am. Maybe a cute farmer. Someone who isn’t cowardly or afraid to put any effort into the relationship. Someone who won’t compare me to his slutty ex girlfriend.

  89. Lavazza says:

    BF: “I’m a chaste, marriage minded young girl. What aspects am I lacking?”

    You do not understand and appreciate men. Most women don’t, but those who do beat the competition hands down.

  90. Butterfly Flower says:

    You do not understand and appreciate men. Most women don’t, but those who do beat the competition hands down.

    How exactly do I not appreciate men? I don’t understand your assumption.

    I was raised to appreciate men. I’m from a traditional household.

    However, I was only raised to appreciate men that are worthy of appreciation. Not every man automatically deserves my respect. A potential husband would have to earn my respect, as well as my father’s. I don’t think my family would want me to date a whiny Beta loser that can’t differentiate between a catch like me and a whore.

    It sounds like Betas generalize all women. Well, I’m gonna generalize all Betas. They’re whiny losers prone to poor judgment. They reap what they sow. They shouldn’t date whores and then wonder why their relationships fail.

    I’m gonna go find myself a nice traditional Christian man not involved with the modern SMP. He’d know I’m not a whore and treat me they way I need to be treated. I’d treat him with respect because he deserves it.

  91. Lavazza says:

    You have an instrumental view on men, at least as mates. If your father would have a setback that he cannot take in his stride, but really shakes him for a long while, would you see him as a bitter whiner when not being able to move on for a long time? Would you ascribe the setback to his lack of good judgment, to bad luck or to other people’s evil?

  92. Dalrock says:

    @Butterfly Flower

    I don’t think the manosphere is a good place to conduct your love life. Nothing against the manosphere, but this is really a place where ideas are shared an hammered out.

    Beyond that, my only advice would be to make sure you are deciding between real men. I don’t mean weed out the girly ones (which you should of course do), but to make sure the men you are considering aren’t imaginary.

    I’m gonna go find myself a nice traditional Christian man not involved with the modern SMP. He’d know I’m not a whore and treat me they way I need to be treated. I’d treat him with respect because he deserves it.

    I’m not sure where one would go to look for such a man. Haley has been looking for some time so maybe she can give you some pointers. I think the problem is if he isn’t in the SMP he will be pretty hard to find, and if you do find him I’m not convinced he will know how to treat you.

    As you might guess I am in no way suggesting you settle. Find the best real man you can and if you fall head over heels in love with him then by all means marry him (if you want to marry). What I would caution you against is comparing the real men you happen to come across with the fictional one you have in your head (traditional Christian man not in the SMP who knows all the right things to say and do). I’m not saying this for the benefit of the real men you meet, but for your benefit. The top quality men you meet don’t need any help. They will eventually find and marry wonderful women (if they want to marry).

  93. Butterfly Flower says:

    @Dalrock:

    I didn’t mean to spam the thread; you can delete those comments if you want. I was just humoring myself with that Mr. Johnson guy. From my first response I wrote him off as a creepy philanderer. I have a pretty good “creep” radar. I was trying to get him to stumble and say something that made his “I’m trying to game you” a little more obvious. I would have never met with him for coffee, I prefer to avoid situations that run the risk of getting roofied.

    What I would caution you against is comparing the real men you happen to come across with the fictional one you have in your head (traditional Christian man not in the SMP who knows all the right things to say and do). I’m not saying this for the benefit of the real men you meet, but for your benefit. The top quality men you meet don’t need any help. They will eventually find and marry wonderful women (if they want to marry).

    I wouldn’t expect a traditional Christian man to behave like a sophisticated city-bred suitor, if that is what you mean. I certainly don’t have unrealistic expectation. Nor do I have a fictional perfect boyfriend in my head; I guess I’m not much of a romantic dreamer.

    I wouldn’t mind a Beta, as long as he isn’t whiny or fussy. I don’t want to date a guy and feel like I’m walking on minefield when it comes to his emotions. A man shouldn’t be PMSing more than a woman.

    Anyway, I’m a well behaved attractive young lady, I’m not sure why a top quality Christian man wouldn’t consider me marriage material….

  94. Steve Johnson says:

    I would have never met with him for coffee, I prefer to avoid situations that run the risk of getting roofied.

    Why do you require a pseudonym in the first place?

    Oh, I don’t know, because you never really know when some random woman on the internet will accuse you of being a rapist?

  95. Butterfly Flower says:

    Oh, I don’t know, because you never really know when some random woman on the internet will accuse you of being a rapist?

    I was suspicious because you weren’t using a real name and described yourself as mischievous. That’s a broad adjective that could apply to puppies as well as felons.

    You wouldn’t elaborate on your life. That set off even more “creep” warning bells.

    Long story short: playing coy doesn’t work over the internet; it just seems creepy.

  96. Steve Johnson says:

    That’s a broad adjective that could apply to puppies as well as felons.

    I think “mischievous” is only used to describe felons by their mothers or baby mommas.

    You wouldn’t elaborate on your life.

    In a comment section. If you’re sincerely curious I’ll exchange emails with you but I’m not posting identifying details in a comment section.

    On the other hand, there’s this:

    From my first response I wrote him off as a creepy philanderer. I have a pretty good “creep” radar. I was trying to get him to stumble and say something that made his “I’m trying to game you” a little more obvious.

  97. Anon says:

    I think the problem is if he isn’t in the SMP he will be pretty hard to find, and if you do find him I’m not convinced he will know how to treat you.

    I would agree with this. I can’t think of a guy who really isn’t involved with the SMP at all except for guys like this. I don’t think that’s what Butterfly Flower is looking for.

  98. Butterfly Flower says:

    In a comment section. If you’re sincerely curious I’ll exchange emails with you but I’m not posting identifying details in a comment section.

    I am sincerely curious! You require a pseudonym, so your life must be exciting.

    On the other hand, there’s this:

    I’m a pretty young girl and you’re a man that said “I’ll try not to be charming” – what was I supposed to think? It set off philanderer warning bells.

    I would agree with this. I can’t think of a guy who really isn’t involved with the SMP at all except for guys like this. I don’t think that’s what Butterfly Flower is looking for.

    I’m clever and resourceful, I’ll find a decent non-SMP Christian guy. When I do I’ll make a nice blog to help other girls in the same predicament.

    Honestly, my two weeks of being involved in the Manosphere has convinced me dating a Beta will lead to an emotionally abusive relationship.

    I’m not trolling, I am genuinely frightened by the typical Beta attitude. They sound like bitter individuals that generalize all women. It’s always the girl’s fault, no matter what.

    I’m a traditional good girl; you know, the type of lady betas always whine about being unable to find. Well you know what? I don’t want to date a beta, because I deserve better than a man that’s too stupid to tell the difference between a good girl and a whore.

    You know, that Mr. Johnson guy wasn’t creepy, I take that back. I rather have him philander me than have myself inadvertently become some beta’s emotional punching bag.

  99. Steve Johnson says:

    You know, that Mr. Johnson guy wasn’t creepy, I take that back. I rather have him philander me than have myself inadvertently become some beta’s emotional punching bag.

    Ha!

    Take that beta chumps!

  100. ExNewYorker says:

    Wow. That’s one heck of a rationalization hamster. I’ve never seen such a roundabout way of coming to the conclusion that one prefers alpha cads to beta chumps. Usually, it doesn’t require such elaborate “reasoning”. Well, at least she knows what she wants. I’m sure the wolf cads are happy to see the sheep come out of the stable willingly :-)

  101. CSPB says:

    Just like a combination padlock. It has to be spun clockwise then counterclockwise and then clockwise again to reach the correct answer. Only then will the lock open. Are hamster wheels any different?

  102. Doomed Harlot says:

    I can’t help wondering whether Butterfly Flower is for real or a jokester trying to pull the leg of gullible manosphere men with an over-the-top pose of traditional femininity.

    What kind of person declares that a man dating her must pay $50 per plate for her dinner in order to convince her that his intentions are honorable — and then in the very same thread complains repeatedly about men being unable to distinguish her from a common whore?

    Butterfly, if you are for real, I feel bad that my comment above is a bit harsh, but do you not see that a man might not take kindly to be required to spend big bucks on a woman in order to convince her to take his attentions seriously? I’m one of those mean middle-aged career woman, but once upon a time, I was popular with men of the demographic you are interested in (in NYC no less!) My advice is this: It helps not to take yourself too seriously. It helps to be content to have a date in which dinner is a $2 hot dog from a pushcart during a stroll around the park. It helps to have a little bit of humility and not assume that you are automatically a great catch just because you are young and pretty. Even if you are very pretty indeed, an entitled attitude and an overly keen interest in how much your date is prepared to pay for you are both very unattractive attributes that will drive away the men who might otherwise be interested in something other than your pretty exterior.

  103. Butterfly Flower says:

    Just like a combination padlock. It has to be spun clockwise then counterclockwise and then clockwise again to reach the correct answer. Only then will the lock open. Are hamster wheels any different?

    An example of the typical Beta “All women are cheap whores” mindset. According to Betas that post here, Virgins don’t exist. Good women don’t exist. Anything with a vagina is a feminazi whore.

    I liked Betas two weeks ago. Then I came here and now I’m afraid of them. I’m attracted to guys besides Alphas, I just don’t want to be emotionally abused.

    You can catch more flies with honey than with vinegar.

    A decent girl won’t be attracted to a bitter guy that complains about how much women suck.

    Wow. That’s one heck of a rationalization hamster. I’ve never seen such a roundabout way of coming to the conclusion that one prefers alpha cads to beta chumps. Usually, it doesn’t require such elaborate “reasoning”. Well, at least she knows what she wants. I’m sure the wolf cads are happy to see the sheep come out of the stable willingly :-)

    I’m not a rationalizing Hamster. I’m a traditional minded young woman.

    It’s just I’d rather be the trophy wife of an older cad than be married to a Beta that will treat me like trash.

    My father was an Alpha that settled down when he fell in love with my Mother. Alpha’s can have stable emotional relationships too. They make terrific fathers. They don’t complain all the time.

    Ha! Take that beta chumps!

    If you’re an Alpha, then why are you involved in the Manosphere? If you want to settle down, I don’t think the advice here will help you find what you’re looking for.

    If you’re so charming, then just be your typical philandering-self. Find a girl that’s marriage material, charm her for a few months, and if you’re positive she’s the one, call your jeweler and your attorney. A large FL-IF rock should distract the girl from the prenup in case you’re afraid that will scare her off. Although if it scares her off then she was probably a gold digger so that’s a good thing.

    If you had any problems with your wife during the marriage, would you tell her and ask her to fix them? From my observation, it sounds like Betas don’t have the balls to confront their significant others when it comes to relationship issues. Like, all the guys that need Athol Kay’s advice seem to Betas that are afraid to ask their wives to have sex with them.

    So if you get married and have the balls to chastise your wife when she does something wrong, your marriage should be stable.

    Unrelated:

    I wonder if Betas are just men suffering from Zinc Deficiency/Copper Toxicity? I’m no naturopathist, but the mood-swings, impaired judgment, and lack of masculinity are symptoms of Copper Toxicity. Copper Toxicity leads to Zinc Deficiency. Men require more Zinc than women, the male reproductive system is powered by Zinc; it’s the main mineral required for testosterone production and sperm production.

    Hm…someone should look into this…

  104. Butterfly Flower says:

    I can’t help wondering whether Butterfly Flower is for real or a jokester trying to pull the leg of gullible manosphere men with an over-the-top pose of traditional femininity.

    Seriously, what can I do to convince people here I’m not a troll? Should I make a blog?
    I’m a real person. Feminine traditional girls still exist. We’re an endangered species, but not a mythological creature.

    What kind of person declares that a man dating her must pay $50 per plate for her dinner in order to convince her that his intentions are honorable — and then in the very same thread complains repeatedly about men being unable to distinguish her from a common whore?

    Wanting to get treated well by a man doesn’t make a woman a whore. Treating a girl well doesn’t make a man a sugardaddy.

    I don’t understand why so many women these days push said notion. What’s so shameful about having a man take care of you?

    Butterfly, if you are for real, I feel bad that my comment above is a bit harsh, but do you not see that a man might not take kindly to be required to spend big bucks on a woman in order to convince her to take his attentions seriously? I’m one of those mean middle-aged career woman, but once upon a time, I was popular with men of the demographic you are interested in (in NYC no less!) My advice is this: It helps not to take yourself too seriously. It helps to be content to have a date in which dinner is a $2 hot dog from a pushcart during a stroll around the park. It helps to have a little bit of humility and not assume that you are automatically a great catch just because you are young and pretty. Even if you are very pretty indeed, an entitled attitude and an overly keen interest in how much your date is prepared to pay for you are both very unattractive attributes that will drive away the men who might otherwise be interested in something other than your pretty exterior.

    I wouldn’t mind strolling through a park or going to the movies [although the movie theaters here are rather pricey; they keep pushing the IMAX and those tickets cost about 30 bucks a pop].

    I’d just have a problem if a man courted me solely with cheap dates. That sounds like an Alpha move. They don’t invest money into relationships. So I guess my fancy dinner date thing is more of a shit test than ridiculously high standards.

    I admit, I am a bit entitled. Although my entitled attitude is a form of naivete. My family tends to indulge me. I don’t go around thinking “I’m pretty, I deserve the best.” I’m just used to being spoiled.

  105. Hope says:

    Butterfly Flower, Upper Class Socialite Girl dating is currently unavailable in this part of the blogosphere. Please try again later. ;)

  106. Clarence says:

    LOL!

    Hope, you’ve made some spot-bang comments recently.

    Good job.

  107. Doomed Harlot says:

    Butterfly flower, I don’t doubt the existence of traditional-minded young women who cultivate chastity and femininity. It’s just a funny contrast when you create a picture of yourself as a sweet, innocent young flower and then in the next breath you blast “whores” and “hos” and “sorority bimbos” and talk about your demands for expensive dinners. That’s why your internet persona seems like a parody. (If you are, in fact, a parody, I say well-played!)

    But taking you as real, for the sake of discussion:

    There is nothing wrong with wanting to be well-treated by men. But good treatment and expensive treatment are not necessarily the same thing. (To the extent that you have class pretensions, you should be aware that conflating the two is extremely vulgar.) Beware — the man who lavishes money on you may assume that you can be bought, or that he can just spend money on you in lieu of treating you with genuine kindness, respect or interest. Not always, I don’t suppose, but it’s a real danger of men who like to throw their money around in front of pretty, young women.

    Conversely, taking you out on a bunch of cheap dates isn’t in and of itself an alpha move. It could be, I suppose, but the real indicator is whether the guy is treating you kindly and attentively versus dismissively and high-handedly. The money spent is beside the point. If I were you, I would stay away from equating how much a man values you with the amount he spends on you — because that does start to seem a bit as if you base your own value on dollars and cents, which is a bit degrading to you.

    In terms of your sense of entitlement, that’s okay to a degree (in my humble opinion). For example, you ARE entitled to be treated with respect and consideration, and you are entitled to that because you are a human being. (Your dates are equally entitled.)

    But I think you are wrong to feel entitled to a partner of a particular demographic just because you happen to be young, pretty, and virginal. That kind of entitlement leads to bitterness and lashing out. The manosphere betas are mad because they feel that being nice entitles them to girlfriends — and they become bitter and lash out at women when they can’t get girlfriends. You seem to be in danger of going the same route — lashing out at men because they won’t date you even though you are doing everything “right.” No one is entitled to a boyfriend or girlfriend – it’s really a matter of chemistry and whether what you are offering is similar to what the other person is looking for. And, despite what the most traditionalist manosphere might say, having an untainted uterus and a pretty exterior are not themselves enough to create chemistry. Being open and kind and warm and undemanding, however, helps (whether you are a man or a woman).

  108. Butterfly Flower says:

    Butterfly Flower, Upper Class Socialite Girl dating is currently unavailable in this part of the blogosphere. Please try again later. ;)

    Upper Class Socialite? Psh, I wish. I’m no blue blood.

    Spoiled brat with with a traditional family mindset?

    ….wait a sec, why does everyone seem so intent on flaming me?

    Whenever I bring up points that don’t mesh with the “pity Beta men, all women are evil” mindset, I get flamed.

    This isn’t convincing me Betas are worthy marrying. I’m no paragon of maturity yet even I think that’s immature behavior!

  109. CSPB says:

    Butterfly Flower,

    It’s your life, but you might exhibit some Catholic humility and consider what it being said here. The man you want is the prize. If you expect him to woo you as if you are the prize, then it may not work out well. That day is gone and the best young men know that. It would be much more productive to concentrate on the things that would make you a good wife that go beyond your faith, your beauty and your virginity, rather than dwell on the things that a man should do to prove himself to you. This will only come with some serious introspection. Religious women often have an air of moral superiority and tend to be sanctimonious.

    You come on here and expect everyone to respond in ways that won’t hurt your feelings. That is not how men communicate. This is the manosphere. Men criticize and speak bluntly. Men confront and offer unkind opinions. If you don’t like it then don’t go to a group of men to get their opinion. The women that frequent the manosphere have developed a thicker skin.

  110. Butterfly Flower says:

    You come on here and expect everyone to respond in ways that won’t hurt your feelings. That is not how men communicate. This is the manosphere. Men criticize and speak bluntly. Men confront and offer unkind opinions. If you don’t like it then don’t go to a group of men to get their opinion. The women that frequent the manosphere have developed a thicker skin.

    I’m a blunt individual myself, I have no problem with bluntness.

    I have a problem with so called “nice” Beta men calling me a brainwashed Feminazi whore. Alternatively, a sanctimonious religious shrew.

    It’s like my observations are considered worthless because I was born with a vagina.

    The man you want is the prize. If you expect him to woo you as if you are the prize, then it may not work out well. That day is gone and the best young men know that. It would be much more productive to concentrate on the things that would make you a good wife that go beyond your faith, your beauty and your virginity, rather than dwell on the things that a man should do to prove himself to you.

    I don’t think my father would agree with this statement. If a potential suitor ever told my father “….your daughter’s chastity, faithfulness, and beauty are irrelevant traits. What else does she have to offer me?” I’m pretty sure my father would punch said individual in the face. Repeatedly.

    So do all Betas think along those lines?

    If they do, then I certainly wouldn’t be allowed to date a Beta.

    Butterfly Flower, I don’t doubt the existence of traditional-minded young women who cultivate chastity and femininity. It’s just a funny contrast when you create a picture of yourself as a sweet, innocent young flower and then in the next breath you blast “whores” and “hos” and “sorority bimbos” and talk about your demands for expensive dinners.

    A chaste traditional minded young lady isn’t some ingenue locked in a tower guarded by dragons. I know what a “ho” is. I go outside. I listen to Top 40 music.

    That’s why your internet persona seems like a parody. (If you are, in fact, a parody, I say well-played!)

    I’m a hilariously judgmental individual. My hobbies include needlepoint, baking cupcakes, and calling people out on their shit.

    I’m for real. Although I’m sort-of flattered so many people think I’m not. It’s like I’m such a fascinating person I seem fake.

    But I think you are wrong to feel entitled to a partner of a particular demographic just because you happen to be young, pretty, and virginal. That kind of entitlement leads to bitterness and lashing out. The manosphere betas are mad because they feel that being nice entitles them to girlfriends — and they become bitter and lash out at women when they can’t get girlfriends.

    Betas aren’t automatically nice guys; they’re just quiet and wimpy. Nice guys certainly don’t lash at at women.

    The more I hear about Betas by Betas themselves , the more I think they’re the type of men prone to committing acts of domestic violence. How would I know a Beta wouldn’t lash out at me once we’re married? How would I know a Beta wouldn’t lash out at me while I’m pregnant? How would I know a Beta wouldn’t lash out at his own child?

    Here’s an except from a Domestic Abuse Identification Chart:

    “Denial and blame – Abusers are very good at making excuses for the inexcusable. They will blame their abusive and violent behavior on a bad childhood, a bad day, and even on the victims of their abuse. Your abusive partner may minimize the abuse or deny that it occurred. He or she will commonly shift the responsibility on to you: Somehow, his or her violent and abusive behavior is your fault.”

    It’s not my fault Betas treats me badly, it’s Feminism’s fault. Feminism made all women whores so I deserve to be treated like a whore.

    I wasn’t joking a few posts ago when I said I’ve developed a fear of Betas.

    You seem to be in danger of going the same route — lashing out at men because they won’t date you even though you are doing everything “right.” No one is entitled to a boyfriend or girlfriend – it’s really a matter of chemistry and whether what you are offering is similar to what the other person is looking for. And, despite what the most traditionalist manosphere might say, having an untainted uterus and a pretty exterior are not themselves enough to create chemistry. Being open and kind and warm and undemanding, however, helps (whether you are a man or a woman).

    I’m bubbly and not prone to bitterness. I can easily go find a boyfriend willing to commit.

  111. greenlander says:

    The hamster is strong in you, my dear Butterfly!!!! lol

  112. Clarence says:

    Butterfly flower is either an idiot or a troll.

    The idiocy is , I suppose, curable to an extent as she ages.
    Trolling?
    Not so much.

  113. Butterfly Flower says:

    How exactly am I an idiot, troll, or hamster spinner?

    Someone, please give me an answer!

  114. Steve Johnson says:

    How exactly am I an idiot, troll, or hamster spinner?

    Nah, you’re a Butterfly Flower.

  115. Lavazza says:

    BF: “I have a pretty good “creep” radar.” How have you come to this conclusion? What is the level of proof you use? Does “the creep’s” family and friends agree with your conclusion? Can you imagine a man that blips on your “creep radar” having or having had successful relations with other women? How much effort do you put into calibrating your “creep radar” by searching for such information?

    On the internet it is difficult. Without help from people who know the IRL personalities we will never know for sure if somebody is a creep, or a troll for that matter.

  116. Butterfly Flower says:

    Nah, you’re a Butterfly Flower

    Charming me up, huh? *blushes*

    Anyway, I’m kind of confused by this whole situation.

    Why are educated adult men incapable of articulating just how exactly I’m a troll/idiot/hamster spinner?

    Can you imagine a man that blips on your “creep radar” having or having had successful relations with other women?

    ….why would I be thinking about that? My creep radar has more to do with my personal safety; it’s not a way I assess guys I’d consider dating.

    How have you come to this conclusion?

    I ask myself: “Is this man standing unusually close to me trying to touch my body?”

    What is the level of proof you use?

    When a strange man cups my ass, I tend to classify him as a creep.

  117. Lavazza says:

    BF: But that is a clear example. Your radar seems to go off for much less, as well, even for internet posts.

  118. Steve Johnson says:

    Charming me up, huh? *blushes*

    Just a little. I promised not to be too charming.

  119. Butterfly Flower says:

    BF: But that is a clear example. Your radar seems to go off for much less, as well, even for internet posts.

    I rate creeps on their likelihood of trying to touch my body without my permission.

    Mr. Johnson set off “creep” warning bells because he described himself with the adjective mischievous. No offense to Mr. Johnson, but he does sounds like the type of guy that might try to grab for my ass.

    …why does my creep radar matter to you so much, Lavazza? Do you plan on standing uncomfortably close to me?

    Just a little. I promised not to be too charming.

    …you never answered my question from before. What’s an Alpha like you trolling the Manosphere? From my two weeks of observing it, I’ve noticed the Manosphere is mostly a place for bitter Betas to whine about how much they hate women.

    You know, Dalrock’s whole blog is kind of pointless. He can give out good advice, but it won’t help his bitter Beta followers. A good girl won’t want to marry a Beta if he’s mean and whiny.

  120. Doomed Harlot says:

    Butterfly, My point has nothing to do with the fact that you know the up-to-date slang for “whore.” It’s the fact that you are lashing out at the vast majority of your fellow women as “whores” while simultaneously insisting that you are a sweet old-fashioned girl. Your posts are funny because of the viciousness and self-righteousness combined with claims to being bubbly, sweet, and innocent. It’s a great example of Poe’s Law!

    You are insulted when someone suggests that you cultivate qualities that go beyond just chastity, virginity and faithfulness. (I don’t think the commenter said these qualities are irrelevant, by the way.) But you insult yourself when you suggest that’s all you have to offer. Your worth is not just based on having an untouched vagina and functioning uterus; who you are as a person matters too. You are doing yourself a disservice by overvaluing your looks and your body, and reducing yourself to your fertility and sexuality.

    Fundamentally, your worldview is extremely crass, just like the manosphere betas you are fighting with now. You view relationships as transactional. You want to trade your youth, beauty, and fertility for a bit of ass-kissing and some cash (on a permanent basis in the form of a husband to pay your bills). You are mad at the “whores” of the world for driving down your price, and you are trying to distinguish yourself from them by arguing that you are “worth” more. The manosphere betas hold the same transactional model of relationships, but simply are not accepting your perception of the “price” they should be willing to pay to be with you.

    Your views contrast with those of the feminist. A feminist is not for sale.

  121. Butterfly Flower says:

    Fundamentally, your worldview is extremely crass, just like the manosphere betas you are fighting with now. You view relationships as transactional. You want to trade your youth, beauty, and fertility for a bit of ass-kissing and some cash (on a permanent basis in the form of a husband to pay your bills). You are mad at the “whores” of the world for driving down your price, and you are trying to distinguish yourself from them by arguing that you are “worth” more. The manosphere betas hold the same transactional model of relationships, but simply are not accepting your perception of the “price” they should be willing to pay to be with you.

    Your views contrast with those of the feminist. A feminist is not for sale.

    I appreciate you calling me a gold digger. Any girl that wants to get married young is obviously a gold digger.

    I can pay my own bills. I had a successful career at one point, knock yourselves out speculating just what exactly it was. No, it was not porn.

    I want to get married young because I want to have a husband and eventually start a family. I feel like that’s something that should happen sooner than later. I don’t want to be a career woman, I want to be a wife and mother.

    You are insulted when someone suggests that you cultivate qualities that go beyond just chastity, virginity and faithfulness. (I don’t think the commenter said these qualities are irrelevant, by the way.) But you insult yourself when you suggest that’s all you have to offer. Your worth is not just based on having an untouched vagina and functioning uterus; who you are as a person matters too. You are doing yourself a disservice by overvaluing your looks and your body, and reducing yourself to your fertility and sexuality.

    My other qualities are interesting, but I want to get married to a man that values my chastity.

    Butterfly, My point has nothing to do with the fact that you know the up-to-date slang for “whore.” It’s the fact that you are lashing out at the vast majority of your fellow women as “whores” while simultaneously insisting that you are a sweet old-fashioned girl. Your posts are funny because of the viciousness and self-righteousness combined with claims to being bubbly, sweet, and innocent. It’s a great example of Poe’s Law!

    I’m sweet and innocent, but I’m not a doormat. I don’t let other people make cruel assumptions about me.

    You called me a gold digging whore; I think you’re a middle aged career woman dissatisfied with her life. You have many fine lines and wrinkles that a cosmetic dermatologist should probably fix up. You frequently feel tired and overwhelmed. You’re just not as happy as you thought you’d be at this point in your career.

  122. Lavazza says:

    BF: “…why does my creep radar matter to you so much, Lavazza? Do you plan on standing uncomfortably close to me?”

    No, but my internet troll radar is blaring, and I will trust it.

  123. Lavazza says:

    As a general comment, not directed at BF, I would say that “whiners” are people who have had setbacks in an area, but who are still hopeful. Non-whiners have not (yet) had any setbacks or have found a sufficiently cost effective strategy on how to handle, work around or avoid the risk of setbacks. But even non-whiners will protest when someone says that the risk of setbacks does not exist or that setbacks are *easily* avoidable.

    To sum it up: Whiners mean that the risk should not exist, or hope that the risk is easily avoidable. People who críticize whiners most often mean that the risk does not exist or is really easy to avoid. Non-whiners takes the risk as a necessary part of life and know how to handle, work around or avoid it.

  124. CSPB says:

    Butterfly Flower,

    You exaggerate and reinterpret what others are saying. You are projecting beliefs on others that they do not have and did not say. Then you get defensive and refute. You use shaming language and make derogatory statements about others.

    You should learn to read everything two or three times and not get stuck with you knee-jerk reaction. It appears that the greatest skill you need to develop is reading comprehension. Next you need to refine your thinking ability. Learn to see both sides of any argument and practice arguing a position opposite of what you hold. In this way you will develop your mind. This exercise will develop your empathy. Right now you are not an empathetic person. There is a thin veneer of innocence over your “all-about-ME” or “I’m-so-special” beliefs. Since I am Catholic, I hope you realize that this is an admonishment from a man that has wisdom that comes with age.

    Of course you can ignore this advice by calling me a Beta, but that would be your rationalization hamster at work. Everyone has one but they are stronger in females.

  125. Butterfly Flower says:

    So does that Mr. Johnson guy still want to meet me up for coffee or what?

    Don’t worry, I’ll never post on any of these blogs again. I’m too young and not bitter to fit in here.

    Although now I’m tempted to make my own blog just to prove I’m an actual person. It has the potential of being hit. “Betas: This is why women think you suck.” It could include articles such as: “How to determine if your significant other is a whore” “Don’t be whiny, it’s unattractive” “no, seriously, stop whining”

    I don’t think Betas realize how flawed they truly are. Good girls exist, they just don’t want to date men that act like they’re on the rag.

    As a general comment, not directed at BF, I would say that “whiners” are people who have had setbacks in an area, but who are still hopeful. Non-whiners have not (yet) had any setbacks or have found a sufficiently cost effective strategy on how to handle, work around or avoid the risk of setbacks. But even non-whiners will protest when someone says that the risk of setbacks does not exist or that setbacks are *easily* avoidable.

    To sum it up: Whiners mean that the risk should not exist, or hope that the risk is easily avoidable. People who críticize whiners most often mean that the risk does not exist or is really easy to avoid. Non-whiners takes the risk as a necessary part of life and know how to handle, work around or avoid it.

    So what you’re saying is, Betas are individuals prone to avoidable mistakes?

    ….yeah, you’d think “don’t marry a whore that will screw you over” would be kind-of obvious. I want to have sympathy for those guys, but it’s really hard to because there’s no way there wasn’t any warning signs.

    You exaggerate and reinterpret what others are saying. You are projecting beliefs on others that they do not have and did not say. Then you get defensive and refute. You use shaming language and make derogatory statements about others.

    No, no I don’t. I’m pretty honest. Provide an example of my so called “reinterpretation and belief projection”.

  126. Doomed Harlot says:

    Le sigh. I am not calling you a gold-digging whore, Butterfly Girl. And no, your desire to settle down young and be a stay-at-home-mother has nothing to do with it.

    What I am trying to point out to you are some of the ironies in your world view as evidenced in your comments. You seem extremely concerned about differentiating yourself from “whores,” while at the same time viewing relationships in crass, materialistic terms.

    I still think you’re pulling our leg. The part about the wrinkles and the exhaustion made me smile.

  127. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot
    But I think you are wrong to feel entitled to a partner of a particular demographic just because you happen to be young, pretty, and virginal. That kind of entitlement leads to bitterness and lashing out. The manosphere betas are mad because they feel that being nice entitles them to girlfriends — and they become bitter and lash out at women when they can’t get girlfriends.

    Great insight on the relationship between bitterness and entitlement, and as you point out neither sex has a monopoly on this. I think beta bitterness isn’t strictly entitlement, it is also frustration at recognizing that having followed the message they have been bombarded with lead to their failure.

    One thing that does surprise me about many women in their 20s and 30s today (and maybe always) is the belief that they are entitled to have a man support them financially. I sense this both in a la carte feminists as well as many churchly women. In fact, it may be more prevalent in the latter. Not all women suffer from this, but the ones who do seem to be the ones we hear from the most. One could make the same point about men. I think this also ties into CSPB’s point above about empathy.

    Lastly, I think this fits in with the issue of women so often feeling that they “settled” and then turning into a human wrecking ball. Ms. Berry and a slew of other real life divorce empowerment authors come to mind here.

  128. Lavazza says:

    Dalrock: “Great insight on the relationship between bitterness and entitlement, and as you point out neither sex has a monopoly on this. I think beta bitterness isn’t strictly entitlement, it is also frustration at recognizing that having followed the message they have been bombarded with lead to their failure.”

    Yeah, integrating and following the prevalent message/script cannot be seen as an “easily avoidable” mistake. And I find it weird to hear somebody complain about people complaining of the results of doing so, without even admonishing that the message/script is wrong, or that the success rate of the script is exagerrated, but rather meaning that someone whose life has been shattered, is a fool or has entitlement complex for just not knowing how to tweak the script to the correct degree.

    http://www.blogfromitaly.com/interesting-italian-word-furbo/

  129. Doomed Harlot says:

    I dunno. Maybe I’m unforgiving but, to me, it seems like common sense that you can’t expect automatic attention from the opposite sex just by meeting minimal standards of good behavior. It also seems obvious that the object your affections has every right to choose someone else based on any reason at all.

    I learned that lesson at 14 when the love of my life (to that point) chose a vivacious busty blonde 16-year-old over me. Even at that age, I understood that it would immature to blame either my love or the blonde for the fact that he liked her better. I don’t know if he preferred her because of her boobs or because of her fun personality or some other reason — but any reason would be valid because it was his right to decide whom to date. You can’t make someone be with you.

  130. Doomed Harlot says:

    On women who expect men to support them:

    I suppose it makes sense in the context of traditional gender roles. But I don’t have much sympathy for women who complain that feminism ruined their right to be able to expect a husband to support them (even assuming the historical accuracy of such an expectation.) Working for a living is difficult and stressful. (Butterfly Flower is not far off when she speculates that I am often tired and overwhelmed.) I can’t imagine demanding that a man shoulder that burden alone.

  131. Paige says:

    Young attractive women rarely have humility. They put on a good show for the guys they like, but for the most part they are impossibly arrogant. A lot of times fathers are partially responsible for this. They over-do the “pretty princess” crap.

    As they say….youth is waisted on the young.

  132. Pingback: Next Phase of the Hypergamous Arms Race: Revenge of the Nerds? | Dalrock

  133. Doomed Harlot says:

    Paige, I agree that the cultural meme of the pretty princess who has Daddy wrapped around her finger is a problem. I think holding girls to high standards in sports, academics, and other areas of achievement is crucial. It’s hard to take your good looks too seriously if you’re getting your ass handed to you on the soccer field every day.

    I also recommend books that stress character over beauty — Little Women, Anne of Green Gables, Little House on the Prairie, Island of the Blue Dolphins, Harriet the Spy. A history of the suffragist movement. The speeches of Gloria Steinem. :)

  134. Hope says:

    It is untrue that women in traditional societies don’t work. When I was growing up in Asia, the women were all working and contributing to household income, in addition to also doing all of the housework, cooking, cleaning, sewing, etc. They didn’t complain bitterly, but they also got the young kids helping out early on so that the kids have a sense of responsibility as well.

    I also supported my husband throughout his years in graduate school and was the primary income earner. Women are not automatically entitled to be supported financially for being women. Though I suppose pretty young things generally can become trophy wives more easily. Just realize that money won’t buy a lot of things, like trust, character or love.

  135. Doomed Harlot says:

    I think that’s a good point, Hope. This idea of women being entitled to financial support is, I think, a western myth. But even in the west, women have always gone out to work. Even in the 1950s-1960s US, the Betty Draper type housewife was the ideal, not the reality.

  136. Paige says:

    Women who take the whole “women stay home” thing seriously may experience extreme poverty. Instead of getting a job if there husband is laid off or injured they will move to a shack in the country and live off of the land, because they consider that to be better than the woman being away from her home.

    I don’t disrespect these women, but I notice that a lot of women with these beliefs don’t expect that they will ever fall on hard times. The reality is that if you aren’t going to work to support your family you may find yourself outside hunting for them instead…either way you can’t depend completely on a man. They lose their jobs, get hurt, or die…they are not immortal creatures capable of making sure you never go without.

  137. Butterfly Flower says:

    I can’t help but feel like all the women here are generalizing me. I’m not an awful selfish lazy superficial person because I want to get married young and become a stay at home mom.

    …you know what’s sad? I never had an older female mentor besides my mother. I’ve had older men be fatherly to me, but never an older female role model. Men don’t seem to mind homemakers, it’s only other women that have a problem with said career path.

    Maybe I should just go back to my old career, put off marriage, and work ’till I’m 30. I’ll be terribly unhappy, but that seems to be the only thing acceptable by today’s societal standards.

    [D: Just remember: You aren't paranoid if the world really is out to get you.]

  138. Steve Johnson says:

    Butterfly Flower-

    No offense to Mr. Johnson, but he does sounds like the type of guy that might try to grab for my ass.

    ! Perish the thought!

    So does that Mr. Johnson guy still want to meet me up for coffee or what?

    Sure.

    Absolutely no ass grabbing though.

  139. Doomed Harlot says:

    Butterfly Flower,

    I don’t know you so I don’t know what kind of person you are (or even if you are for real). But, based on your comments here, you seem to have an awfully negative view of women. You seem to think that most other women your age are “whores” and “sorority bimbos.” You seem to think that women older than you are inevitably jealous, used up hags who resent you for youth and beauty. If you make your views evident in real life, you can hardly blame other women for being none too fond of you, right?

    I also think you are being deliberately obtuse. No one on this thread suggested there was anything wrong with you wanting to marry young or be a housewife. The issue is really with your insistence that large percentages of other young women are “whores.” If you choose to categorize women in that light, then you have to be prepared to be judged in that light. That’s the problem of embracing misogyny when you are yourself a woman; you are at constant risk of being hoisted on your own petard. (See Serena Joy in The Handmaid’s Tale.)

    You are still young, and you probably are a nice person at heart (I actually believe most people are). Maybe you should rethink this idea of whether other women are really so awful as you tend to view them. And also whether other women are really so hostile towards you out of jealousy. I would bet if you open up, examine your own behavior and views towards women, and perhaps adopt a more charitable outlook towards women, you would be able to find that older female mentor you are seeking.

  140. Butterfly Flower says:

    Sure.

    How will I contact you? I am intrigued. Only fascinating lives require pseudonyms.

    Absolutely no ass grabbing though.

    Well, a little mischief can be endearing ;)

  141. Butterfly Flower says:

    D: Just remember: You aren’t paranoid if the world really is out to get you.

    Was I wrong for interpreting the other comments as: “Don’t get married, work till you’re 30?”

    If my traditional mindset [I won't cheat, slut around, treat a man like sh!t] is so pointless [what I was also told], then why should I bother with it anymore? Am I just young and naive for thinking that stuff actually matters?

    It’s not like the other posters were encouraging me to follow the advice you gave in this article. They tried to convince me men care more about my career than any of my other attributes. My earnings potential is the most important thing I can bring into a relationship.

    If marriage for women is just a long term personal investment, then all these Betas really are attention seeking whiny twits. They can’t have their cake and eat it too.

    My purchases don’t care about how I treat them. My handbag collection doesn’t throw a hissyfit whenever I buy a new bag and toss last season’s style in the back of the closet.

    If I’m “investing” in a husband, if the SMP is anything like the NASDAQ, then I don’t think men have any right to complain about their poor treatment. It’s only fair. No, this isn’t feminist Hamster spinning, this is common sense. Purchases don’t complain, and if they do, then they should realize they’re refundable.

    I don’t understand older women. I really don’t. It’s like they want younger girls follow a life-path that will lead to misery. They certainly should think at least before they give out advice. Older doesn’t always mean wiser.

    I’m naive but you’re fortunate that I’m also very bright. My critical thinking skills are above average. Imagine if I was stupid enough to drink their Kool-Aid? You’d have created the exact thing this article was trying to prevent!

  142. Paige says:

    I don’t think you should follow a life path that leads to misery. I just think your “tone” lacks humility which may pose a problem. It would seem that perhaps your standards are a bit high as well.

    I married at 19 and had my first child at 20, so I don’t think it is unreasonable to marry and start a family at a young age. The man I married was 23 and not yet established with a career but I recognized that he had good earning potential.

    If you honestly think you have all the qualities necessary to marry a man who is 30-something and already well-established in a career then God Speed. But there is a risk that if you hold out you may not get it.

    I would generally tell a woman wanting to marry to go to college and meet a man there. Major in the same thing you want your future husband to do. If you want to marry a doctor then study pre-med. Men like to marry women who seem *capable* of earning their own way even if they don’t necessarily ever do it.

  143. Doomed Harlot says:

    Yeah, I’m not sure how Butterfly is interpreting any comments here to mean, “Don’t get married until you are 30.” I was engaged at 23 myself (though not married until 26).

  144. I was 22 when I married and we’ve had a great ride so far. I’m 39 now, and if I could go back and change a thing, I wouldn’t.

    If you don’t meet your intended at an early age, don’t sweat it. BUT, I would not advocate taking the position that you have to wait until you’re 25 to get married. I think that’s a bad policy.

  145. Clarence says:

    Anyone who confuses the vast majority of men -who are neither “alphas” nor “omegas” with “creeps” is an idiot or a troll full-stop.

  146. Steve Johnson says:

    Miss Flower –

    the.steve.p.johnson (at) gmail dot com

  147. Butterfly Flower says:

    @ Doomed Harlot:

    You are nice and mature. I appreciate your posts for always being calm and composed [hm, a true lawyer disposition]. I apologize for, well, insulting you. Although my insults were more like observations than insults. I assume most lawyers are overwhelmed and stressed individuals. I mean, it’s not really a career know for known for having a light and manageable workload. I admire you perseverance; I certainly couldn’t handle that amount of stress.

    You are still young, and you probably are a nice person at heart (I actually believe most people are). Maybe you should rethink this idea of whether other women are really so awful as you tend to view them. And also whether other women are really so hostile towards you out of jealousy. I would bet if you open up, examine your own behavior and views towards women, and perhaps adopt a more charitable outlook towards women, you would be able to find that older female mentor you are seeking.

    On the topic of older women being mean to me, can you tell me why Hope hates me so much? Hope called me a spoiled socialite twit and then told me to go leave the blogosphere. She called me an unintelligent troll on the Badger’s blog. She also said I was selfish and didn’t care about other people’s feelings.

    *sniffles*

    What exactly did I do to make her assume all of that? I’m not a bad person. I don’t run around indiscriminately committing acts of malice. I’m sweet and easily saddened when people assume I’m something I’m not.

    That’s the problem of embracing misogyny when you are yourself a woman; you are at constant risk of being hoisted on your own petard. (See Serena Joy in The Handmaid’s Tale.)

    Wasn’t that book using “Anti-Feminism” as a cover for the Neo-Con/John Birch Society movement? It was less about the dangers of embracing misogyny, more about “Neo-Cons will turn America into a post apocalyptic wasteland that promotes female enslavement!”

  148. Butterfly Flower says:

    Miss Flower –

    the.steve.p.johnson (at) gmail dot com

    I sent you an email. I really want to know why you require a pseudonym. If you didn’t require a pseudonym, I’d find you less interesting. People with fake names are usually interesting individuals.

    …do you have an embarrassing last name? Could that be it? I bet it’s something like Lipschitz or Comings. Yeah, a name that makes people giggle.

  149. Hope says:

    Butterfly Flower, half the things you claim I have called you, I never did. Feel free to continue thinking the way you do though. I am still grieving the loss of our son, and your view of me really does not matter.

  150. Doomed Harlot says:

    Butterfly, Thank you for understanding where I’m coming from a little bit. I am sorry that I came across a bit harsh!

    On Serena Joy and the Handmaid’s Tale, it’s been a while since I read it. Yes, it is about life in the U.S. when a group of crazy patriarchalists take over. The gist of Serena’s character was that she had been a prominent preacher or gospel singer and then she became an anti-feminist activist in the years before the crazy patriarchs took over. She was a public figure famous for advocating that women should be subordinate to men. She wound up married to one of the top guys in the new movement. She had hoped that bashing her own sex and advocating women’s submission, she would gain acceptance from the men as an “exceptional woman” who gets it, but the patriarchs still just viewed and treated her as a lowly woman.

    The idea of her character is that women who embrace anti-woman ideas (such as the slut/nice girl dichotomy) will generally end up suffering under the very principles they themselves advocated.

  151. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot
    She had hoped that bashing her own sex and advocating women’s submission, she would gain acceptance from the men as an “exceptional woman” who gets it, but the patriarchs still just viewed and treated her as a lowly woman.

    Sounds like male feminists.

  152. Doomed Harlot says:

    *Rolls eyes*

  153. Paul says:

    He’s not wrong DH. I’ve seen more than one feminist specifically state that they are not attracted to male feminist. (Jaclyn F. for one) They claim to know they “should be attracted” to such men, but just aren’t for some reason.

    it’s shocking, I know.

  154. Doomed Harlot says:

    You must be referring to an interview with Ms. Friedman entitled “BLEEP-ing while Feminist.” (I bleeped out the key word so as not to offend the delicate sensibilities of this audience. You see, one can be both a harlot and a lady at the same time.)

    I actually think she’s very clear on why she isn’t attracted to a certain kind of male feminist and yes, Dalrock does have a point. There are certain types of male feminists (not all by any means) who do tend to bash men, or do silly things like apologize on behalf of the male sex, or as she put it “self-flagellate to the point of un-BLEEP-ability.” I do think the problem is that these men don’t really understand feminism, probably because they haven’t had the experience of being a woman in our society. They see some of the issues but see it too much in terms of men-v.-women, as opposed to a cultural issue, and are overly eager to show that they are one of the good guys. The conversation becomes about them and their guilt.

    The analogy to the attitude of this KIND of male feminist is white liberal guilt. Guilty white liberals mean well but tend to unintentionally patronize and alienate the very black people they are so anxious to please. But you can be a white liberal (like me) without acting like a guilty white liberal. Similarly, you can be a male feminist without being a guilty male feminist.

    So I don’t think it follows that male feminists PER SE are unattractive to women, or necessarily self-flagellating. It’s just that men who actually understand feminism are few and far between; men generally don’t have an incentive to be particularly interested in feminism, which is why dating as a straight-female-feminist does indeed have its own frustrations. (My own husband is a male feminist who gets it, a fact I attribute to his having been brought up by a single mother and being close to his older sister. He never had any trouble attracting women. He is not self-flagellating and he gets along well with men.)

  155. Butterfly Flower says:

    Butterfly Flower, half the things you claim I have called you, I never did.

    How was I supposed to interpret: “You’re a socialite, go leave…” ? It sounded rather insulting. Your statement didn’t fit the context of this thread and came out of nowhere. It certainly hurt my feelings.

    I am still grieving the loss of our son, and your view of me really does not matter.

    I send my condolences. I wasn’t aware of your unfortunate loss.

    Feel free to continue thinking the way you do though.

    Now I think you’re a grieving mother in a fragile emotional state and I feel awkward.

    I still can’t help but get the feeling you think I did something wrong. Just, please don’t get snarky with me….I’m sensitive and it hurts my feelings.

  156. Svar says:

    “@Doomed Harlot
    She had hoped that bashing her own sex and advocating women’s submission, she would gain acceptance from the men as an “exceptional woman” who gets it, but the patriarchs still just viewed and treated her as a lowly woman.

    Sounds like male feminists.”

    Patriarchy is not analogous to feminism. Patriarchy is the default setting for society while feminism is something a bunch of hairy dykes came up with to get attention.

  157. Dalrock says:

    @Doomed Harlot
    *Rolls eyes*

    You gave a fictional example, I hope you will accept a real life one in exchange. Hanna Rosin’s husband supports her feminism to the hilt. He sits passively by while Hanna and her daughter tell their son that girls are better than boys (on video). He is the editor of Slate which coincidentally is behind her pet feminist web site DoubleX. He does the cooking and I’m guessing a good portion of the housework. What does this high earning high status man get for all of his groveling to his quite hideous feminist wife? She publicly complains about him. She treats him with contempt, writing an entire piece about how he is a kitchen bitch in his own magazine.

    But keep those eyes rolling…

  158. Butterfly Flower says:

    Four days, and that Mr. Johnson guy never replied to my email. Hmph! I was polite and all I did was ask him why he required a pseudonym….

    I guess that’s another lesson I learned from this post? Alphas are flighty and rather act coy than answer questions.

    [other lessons I've learned so far: Betas are whiny, my naivete isn't very endearing and it frequently rubs adults the wrong way, my lack of personal substance is a negative trait, I probably won't end up getting married 'till I'm 30 anyway because I look young for my age and apparently men are afraid to date younger women because there's a social stigma against it...]

    Anyway, that Hanna Rosin sounds like an SNL skit: “Feminist who blatantly treats her husband like sh^t – her husband doesn’t notice and assumes the poor treatment is just Feminism”

  159. Steve Johnson says:

    Hey Flower,

    Your original mail went to my spam folder.

    I’ve responeded.

    my naivete isn’t very endearing

    Hey, don’t learn the wrong lessons.

  160. Ian says:

    @Butterfly Flower

    I think that you’re aiming too old for guys in their mid 30s. Having attractive sad eyes doesn’t mean that they’re suitable partners for a good relationship or marriage. I expect that they shun your advances because to them you look like you’re practically a child.

    There are men in their 20s who are up for settling down. They are not common or highly visible but they certainly exist. I think that if you want to attract older men in their mid or late 20s you should dress like a sophisticated woman of that age rather than dressing as most 19 year olds do.

    At present I suspect these old men have no reason to differentiate you from others of your age. Different clothes would give that crucial first impression.

  161. Ian says:

    And avoid all this stereotypical ‘alpha’ and ‘beta’ nonsense; you were right when you said you are too young for bitterness!

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  179. Kurt says:

    Wow, that chart is completely b.s.! She thinks that a 31-year-old man who is single must have something wrong with him, yet a 31-year-old single woman is perfectly normal? Well, I happen to know a lot of men who were single in their early 30s and they are professionally successful and reasonably attractive. However, these men weren’t the type of hang out at bars, so I guess they didn’t have the opportunity to meet these allegedly fabulous single early 30s women.

    The problem is that those early-30s women only want to date from a small group of men. This is apparently ok when the men from that group are dating multiple women while playing the field. However, when those men get older and want to settle down, the eligible pool of men for those women to choose from obviously decreases.

    If women has more realistic expectations and didn’t waste their most attractive years playing the field, they wouldn’t end up single and alone in their 30s. The funny thing is that the men who were overlooked while in their early 30s often eventually figure out how to get women and at go for the younger, more attractive women who are often much nicer than the women in their mid-30s.

  180. John Deigh says:

    This is what Katie from Dateme,DC (the woman who wrote the Precipice of Spinsterhood article cited above) blogged on February 7, 2011 after having fallen for some entrepreneur who had been wining and dining her, and taking her on 5 exciting and out of the ordinary dates (apparently he dumped her 2 days later):

    “I’m just never going to fall for the boring, safe guy who is guaranteed to never cheat on me, to provide me with a house in the suburbs and a white picket fence and a dashing golden retriever and 2.5 children. I had that guy. I broke up with him three years ago. I want awesome. Awesome is totally attainable. And I’m not content with anything less. Maybe if I’m single and bitter at age 42, I’ll reel it in and settle for the boring, safe guy who wants to cook dinner and stay home. Actually, nah — if I’m 42 and single, I think I’ll choose to be awesome and bang 18-year-olds on the varsity football team instead.”
    —————–
    2 days later she wrote: “For everyone who keeps asking me: No, I don’t have Valentine’s Day plans with the entrepreneur; No, I’m not intending on making any with him; No, I don’t really have any set plans for the day at all. What I can say for certain is this: Whatever it is that I end up doing on Valentine’s Day, I’m doing it drunk. As God and Saint Valentine intended.”
    =====================
    Didn’t want a safe Beta, but preferred to play and be played. She shows no redeeming qualities of a potential bride like youthfulness, chastity, cooking, or cleaning, yet she expects perfect men to beg her to marry her just because she is intelligent and cute (she describes her looks as average elsewhere). It takes more than that.

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  182. Casey says:

    I predict divorce within 7 years.

  183. Anonymous Reader says:

    Now she gets to look forward to a few years of marriage, including pushing out a child-support-object or two, followed by decline in her haaaapiness, divorce plus cash & prizes, then cougardom.

    Or maybe not. I hope not, for the man’s sake and for the sake of any children.

  184. feeriker says:

    So Kate from DateMeDC won. http://www.datemedc.com/2014/05/wonderful-news.html

    Much as it pains me to say it, the poor, dumb, desperate bastard is about to begin the “living hell on earth” phase of his life (sad that the guy had no red-pill friends to talk him out of it). The even darker side of me than what normally lurks here is whispering “and he deserves every inch of what’s he got coming to him.”

    BTW, looking back over the three-year lifespan of this thread, I wonder if Butterfly Troll ever landed her rich, older Alpha unicorn?

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