Mantervention

If you are like me, you know quite a few young men, parents, and young women who would benefit greatly from understanding the realities of attraction and the sexual marketplace.  But even starting the conversation is very difficult.  Once you see the bigger picture it is obvious, but how do you help someone understand something which goes against the grain of conventional wisdom?  In reality most people aren’t open to change, especially if they are older.

But what if you know someone who is somewhat open to learning how things work?  Where should you send them?  There is an amazing wealth of knowledge in the manosphere, but sending someone to a blog is a dicey proposition.  Blogs are a sort of ongoing conversation, so anyone new winds up feeling very much like they are coming in in the middle.  By the time they understand enough of the jargon and concepts to understand one post, three more are already up.  Plus many of the really good game sites are pretty edgy, to say the least.  Someone who values marriage or long term relationships will have to sift through the more pickup focused stuff to find the nuggets of insight.  Pretty much all of us went through this ourselves at one point or another, but convincing someone else to make the investment can be a difficult sell.  You likely only get one shot, so you don’t want to risk them deciding they don’t want to hear any more about it.

So what should you do?  What should I do?  My wife and I know a number of men who really need to take the red pill.  If my only choice was to send them to the manosphere, I would probably start with Athol Kay and Badger’s sites, and then expand from there after they got their feet wet.  But as I said, this is a lot to ask someone new to walk themselves through.

Fortunately Athol Kay has solved my (and perhaps your) problem.  As you no doubt already know he has written a book titled The Married Man Sex Life Primer 2011.  Books are the perfect format to introduce someone new to a world they were never told about.  The format forces the author to define the key concepts and terms upfront, and the reader doesn’t get the feeling that they came in during the middle of the conversation.  Also, Athol Kay is pro marriage, so you don’t have to worry about the pickup side turning off your pro marriage and/or religious friends or relatives.  Additionally, from reading his blog you already know he is a master of his topic and a gifted writer with a fantastic talent at teaching what would otherwise be fairly complex ideas.

I’ve just placed a copy of his book in my amazon.com cart.  As soon as I can find something to make the order size over $25 I’ll pull the trigger.  Then I’ll read the book and decide which one of my lucky friends/relatives I’ll grace with a copy first.

Thanks Athol for your incredible dedication to helping other men and marriages.  I hope you are richly rewarded for it.

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35 Responses to Mantervention

  1. Thanks Dalrock, much appreciated.

    You could have had a free review copy you know. Just let me know where to send it.

    [D: Thanks Athol. I think I'll take you up on that.]

  2. MrLettuce says:

    Taking the red pill was tough. I first found out about Game from Citizen Renegade, so I was dubious at first. However, blogs like Athols (abd yours Dalrock) have showed me that game can work.

    Dating is still a challenge, no doubt about it, but I am smarter about what I want, and how to act to get it.

  3. Sweet As says:

    I have to agree, too.

    I like David Deida a lot, but the material isn’t as action-oriented. You have to read, i think, 3 books before you get to the one that is action-oriented. Granted, there are actions one can take in the first book (Way of the Superior Man), but it’s not as accessible as what Athol writes about.

    Seeing as I now live in his homeland, I have to wait to get a copy too.

    But I’m actually collecting resources for DS. Today, DH and I talked about how it is such a travesty that women aren’t taught Fertility Awareness charting at 14 or so — when that information would be *so* empowering and really give her a full context of how her body works and how to take care of her fertility. I believe that knowledge is power, and I will teach my son about female fertility, but that’s just “sex ed” and not really the larger cultural context.

    I think it will be important for him to know this information from a pro-marriage perspective, and then decide for himself how he wants to use that information. I trust that, as he will be well educated, he will make positive and ethical decisions on the matter.

    And as he’s only 2.5, there’s not much to tell him at this point. But still, it’s good to know stuff so that I can tell him later (or his dad can).

    And thanks, guys, for letting me follow along and try to figure things out.

  4. Doug1 says:

    I think another kind of mantervention that’s important is to talk about divorce 2.0, the very high levels on after tax or take home pay percentage child support=also stealth alimony is, and the need for the right kind of prenup, since women initiate divorce 2.5x as often as men, and many divorce lawyers say that for college educated and up couples they’re really the ones behind divorce more than 90% of the time.

    The basic idea is that the prenup should mimic living together in the event of a divorce. Keep in mind that child support=also stealth alimony can’t be enforceably determined in a prenup.

    A more detailed but still fairly brief outline of what I think should be in a prenup is in this comment:

    http://www.inmalafide.com/blog/2011/03/17/the-demographics-of-soft-polygamy/#comment-22473

  5. Badger says:

    Thanks for the plug, that’s a pretty good endorsement.

  6. greenlander says:

    I’d have them read F. Roger Devlin’s articles:
    http://dontmarry.wordpress.com/2009/03/24/articles-by-f-roger-devlin/

  7. MNL says:

    Hats-off to Athol for the patience and ambition to write that book. It helps fill the chasm between the PUA-oriented stuff for single guys on the one hand vs. the gynocentric we-just-need-to-emotionally-communicate-more counseling industry on the other. Thank you, Athol.

    Related to Athol’s book, I just finished reading Being the Strong Man a Woman Wants: Timeless Wisdom on Being a Man by Elliott Katz. It’s a quick, simple read, communicating the essential LTR game principles in parable form. (The story follows a young, sack-less married man as he goes on a forest hike with his wise grandfather). What’s interesting here is that the book is completely jargon free: it teaches the principle of the shit test without ever mentioning the term “shit test”. (Perhaps it’s the jargon that often makes this topic opaque?) I highly recommend this book as well as Athol’s.

    Speaking of mantervention… Sadly, I’ve got a close buddy right now in the end stage of marital conflict–and it’s frustrating as hell. I’m witnessing the sad destruction from a front row seat. I’ve seen it incubate and develop, and now visibly unravel, all with textbook predictability. Yes, I’m “mantervening” all I can. But when I do share my red-pill thoughts with my buddy, he looks at me as if I’m speaking a foreign language. It just doesn’t resonate with him. So, how to break through? How to inject that epiphany moment many of us have had where the light bulb inside our male head illuminates and we say, “Yes! This makes perfect sense”. …And we see the pattern, recognize the psychology, and then can never go back to looking at women, sexual relationships, or the world the same ever again.

    I dunno. All understanding has to come from within. But how to encourage the spark?

  8. That’s fair good book MNL is recommending. I read that one last year. Found it a little light for me, but then I’m past that level on needing to learn the basics.

    Suggest talking to the wife MNL. It’s going down the toilet anyway, so really you’ve got nothing to lose here. She might listen, get it and tell him to start doing the game sthick.

  9. Badger says:

    To use a phrase I’ll be using in a post soon, Athol is crossing the chasm. Truly a pioneer.

  10. It’s good isn’t it Badger :-)

  11. PT Barnum says:

    First principles, Clarice. Simplicity. Read Marcus Aurelius. Of each particular thing ask: what is it in itself? What is its nature? What does she do, this woman you seek?

    Men should be induced to read a female porn book. Any excuse will do.

  12. Gorbachev says:

    I’m buying a copy. He should be supported in this most noble endeavor.

  13. Mr. Tzu says:

    So far I’ve been pointing select people to these websites.

    http://www.singularity2050.com/2010/01/the-misandry-bubble.html
    As a primer

    Follow up websites
    http://www.the-spearhead.com
    http://www.misandryreview.com

    Follow up blogs of interest
    http://dalrock.wordpress.com
    http://hawaiianlibertarian.blogspot.com

    and finally a starting reference of terms that I’ve seen others use in various postings
    http://exposingfeminism.wordpress.com/shaming-tactics

    Most of the guys I speak with that can handle the paradigm shift aren’t married, and as such I don’t normally include Mr. Kay’s website. Though I have read it from time to time and find it quite insightful.

    *Apologies for the double post, no preview button was available and of course my formatting for the links were a bit off.

  14. Steve says:

    Apropos of almost nothing, my first encounter with Roissyland: I somehow found Roosh’s blog and kept coming back for the comedy, like this roissy classic:

    What A Girl’s Job Tells You
    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2007/10/10/what-a-girls-job-tells-you/

  15. uncleFred says:

    @MNL

    “How to inject that epiphany moment many of us have had where the light bulb inside our male head illuminates and we say, “Yes! This makes perfect sense”.

    Sadly you will probably have to wait for the complete crash and pull him out of the crater. At the point that you describe most men are unable to admit the degree to which they have been had. The denial is so complete that they are unable to apply the information to their situation. Once the marriage ends and he has been picked clean, reality will open his ears, eyes, and brain to the message. Remember somewhere in his head he has known that this was the inevitable outcome for a very long time. He is well practiced in NOT looking at the truth.

    Keep trying. Be careful not to endanger the friendship. In the aftermath he is going need your support even more than he does now.

  16. uncleFred says:

    @Athol
    “Suggest talking to the wife MNL. It’s going down the toilet anyway, so really you’ve got nothing to lose here. She might listen, get it and tell him to start doing the game sthick.”

    This assumes that the wife has any interest in saving the marriage. Until the divorce and settlement are final there is an immense amount to lose. The potential downside of this is massive. Imagine trying to defend “game” in family court. Even if she doesn’t inject it into the legal discussion, you may just hand her another club to use either directly against her husband or to try to destroy the friendship.

    Unless his friend gets it enough to support involving her, approaching the wife is probably not a good idea.

  17. slwerner says:

    I received my copy of Althol’s book on Saturday. I started reading it, but wasn’t able to get very far before my wife spotted me reading it, and (apparently intrigued by the title) asked what it was about. I made the mistake of handing it over to her so she could get a look at it.

    I have yet to get it back from her (well, to be honest, I’ve been too busy to really pursue getting it back). She says it that it makes a lot of sense to her, based on what she’s read so far. Seems like a fairly strong endorsement.

    I’m looking forward to (eventually) getting to read more of it myself.

  18. MNL says:

    @uncleFred… Your thoughts are spot-on. Sadly, it may indeed require a full crash and burn before his eyes are opened. Also, it may indeed be that the wife has little interest in saving things at this point–though in textbook fashion, she wants to *appear* to her girlfriends like she’s doing all she can to save it (in order to earn the “righteous victim” award). It’s so sad. The reality distortion is so plainly dysfunctional.

    @Athol… Thanks. I know from your highly valued blog, that you deal with letters by the bucket-load describing just this situation. In my case and about talking with the wife… from the wife’s perspective, any friend of her husband = the enemy. Therefore, it’s been Mrs. MNL who’s been talking with her. And although Mrs. MNL has no conscious familiarity with the words “game”, “shit test”, or any of that parlance, she’s been the beneficiary of my knowing these concepts. She’s also got loads of common sense, values marriage and family, and sees through this other woman’s bullshit. In the words of Dalrock’s blog, you could say my wife’s goal when talking with this other woman is to simply get the woman’s rationalization hamster to stop, take a few breaths, and rest for a while.

  19. @Slwerner – near exact same thing happened to a friend of mine. I gave him a copy, it was ripped from his hands and the wife looked it over for ten minutes. Then she handed it back to him and said “you need to read this, and I’m reading it after you.”

    @MNL – If the approach to problem solving frames the wife as the enemy, the logical outcome is war. If you frame her as someone having a difficult time in her marriage, with a problem to solve, it’s possible to work towards a solution.

    She’s married to him and has a lot invested in the relationship. Fixing the problems is the path of least resistance for her. Despite what MRA’s say, most women see divorce as a last resort and a terrible outcome. Most of them don’t even fully understand why they are miserable in their marriages and detest their husbands.

    Women do have the advantage with family court, alimony, custody issues to be sure. But they don’t get married planning to screw their husband over as a long term strategy. They all see it as a horrible mistake to have married and see divorce as a salvage operation.

    I know of several women that made a 180 after learning basic Game principles when they realized that they were testing their husband etc.

    Don’t get me wrong on this – there are a minority of divorced men that are absolutely destroyed by the divorce machinery. There are clear cases of the most appalling injustice and the MRA rage over those cases are justified and righteous. However if you constantly frame every woman struggling in her marriage as simply biding her time to take on her demonic form, opportunities to save things will be lost and the end result will be the husband dumped into the divorce machinery.

    Most wives don’t want to divorce and see it as Plan B. I’m just in favor of trying to fix their Plan A before they feel they have to go to Plan B.

  20. And for goodness sake don’t hold back on information from him. I get that he may not wake up to reality until after the divorce paperwork comes and the shit hits the fan. But if you sit back and wait until the relationship craters before really explaining things to him, you’re planning for the relationship to fail. Do try and intervene as early as you can. If he blows it all off and rejects the information, it’s his choice to do so, rather than your choice to withhold information from him.

    Also seeing this post was a plug for my book – I do cover Marriage 2.0 issues in the final section of the book. It’s intended to be fairly accessible for a new reader. The Kindle version is out and downloadable PDF as well. Posting that info later tonight or tomorrow.

  21. Oak says:

    @Doug1: Prenups are garbage. Not worth the paper they are written on. Sure a lawyer would LOVE to sell you a prenup, and he’d love to charge you to defend a prenup. But as a way to protect your rights as a father, they are useless.

    -Prenups can never be used to establish child visitation or custody.

    -They can never be used to establish child support.

    -Anything your wife gives up in a prenup must be given ‘consideration’. Meaning, if she gives up her right in divorce to the Beach House you bought 10 years before you met her, you must PAY HER for the right to keep that property. If you didn’t compensate her, at market rates for what she would have gotten anyway, your Prenup is Null And Void.

    So a prenup is a wonderful opportunity to pay lawyers lots of legal fees, and pretty much useless for anything else.

    A Prenup CANNOT change the facts on the ground: Family Court is anti-father, and anti-man.

  22. Oak says:

    @ Athol: Thanks for making it available on Kindle!!

  23. Badger says:

    “I received my copy of Althol’s book on Saturday. I started reading it, but wasn’t able to get very far before my wife spotted me reading it, and (apparently intrigued by the title) asked what it was about.”

    Here’s my response: “Let’s go to the bedroom and I’ll show you.”

  24. Oak says:

    Read most of the book last night. (It’s a pretty quick read.)

    Learned something: I’m an Alpha. Who knew? All this time I assumed I was Beta… but nope; raging Alpha according to this book!

  25. Pingback: Newsflash: My marriage still doesn’t suck! | Dalrock

  26. Doug1 says:

    Oak–

    @Doug1: Prenups are garbage. Not worth the paper they are written on.

    Wrong.

    -Prenups can never be used to establish child visitation or custody.

    -They can never be used to establish child support.

    That much is true. As I said above and have said endlessly in the manosphere.

    -Anything your wife gives up in a prenup must be given ‘consideration’. Meaning, if she gives up her right in divorce to the Beach House you bought 10 years before you met her, you must PAY HER for the right to keep that property. If you didn’t compensate her, at market rates for what she would have gotten anyway, your Prenup is Null And Void.

    This is utter nonsense. A clear case of a wee bit of knowledge being dangerously misleading. I’m a lawyer educated at a top law school, though I left the law after a few years for other things. The consideration is the man’s being willing to marry the wife.

    In some states you can’t entirely nix alimony in all circumstances but you can limit it’s amount and duration.

  27. Oak says:

    As a ‘lawyer educated in a top law school’ surely someone has suggested that you present FACTS when you make a point? I assume they taught basic debate and logic at this school?

    “Consideration is the man’s willingness to marry” You have got to be kidding me. What value does the judge place on a ‘man’s willingness to marry’? $10,000? $20,000?

    Pre-nups considered unfair (not what the wife would have gotten without it) are ROUTINELY declared null and void. One major route of declaring a prenup void: The wife did not have ‘adequate representation’.

    How did the judge know she didn’t have adequate representation? Because the pre-up is preventing her from getting what she wants! “A good lawyer would never have had her sign this pre-nup. Don’t worry, my lovely, the judge will make it all go away. ”

    As a lawyer, I suppose you make your living selling this garbage… fine. But the concept that pre-nups can divorce fair for men is hog-swill. Save it for the next victim, er uhh client.

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  31. gameon says:

    Interesting site. Question: as a single guy not currently in a relationship, could I benefit from reading Kay’s book?

    [D: Yes. The information he shares will both help you better screen a prospective wife/LTR as well as attract one.]

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