No Rings for Sluts

Anonymous Reader raised some great points the other day about the risk to a man of being fooled into marrying a woman who wasn’t worthy of marrying:

“Honest woman” isn’t enough. There’s plenty of nasty skunks in kitten’s clothing, SolomonII has just flushed one out. Any man who is actually looking for a woman to marry needs to know this, and we need further tests to separate the skunks from the house cats. It would be a good thing if men did not have to do this, but that’s unicorn / rainbow territory.

And:

Dalrock, SolomonII has found exactly what I was pointing out to you in another thread. That deacon’s daughter is a classic example of an “honest woman”; she’s church going, she surely participated in all sorts of youth activities in her church growing up, no doubt she can recite some Scripture, and she’ll drop her top for SolomonII after a handful of texts, followed by her panties.

I bet she could pass a majority of the tests you list in “how to find an honest woman”, too, and rationalize all the lies that she’d have to tell to do so. Maybe you get my point, now?

The context of his comments are my assertion in Gaming your wife that:

The foundation for her commitment to your marriage shouldn’t be your game.  If she is only one, or a few, or even 50 failed shit tests away from walking away from her sacred vow and/or whoring around, then she isn’t a wife, she is a whore.  Don’t marry a whore*.  Game should be about making you and your wife happier with your marriage, not about putting the sole onus for the success of the marriage on you.

He was also referencing the questions I proposed in my Interviewing a Prospective Wife Part II post (if you haven’t read that post this one won’t make as much sense).

The first thing I want to stress is that the risk he is discussing is very real.  Any man who decides to marry needs to seriously consider this possibility.  In the end, the man himself (and his future children) will reap the fruits or bear the burden of the outcome.  The risks and rewards are enormous.  Only the man himself can make the judgment on whether to marry and if so which woman to marry.

As I mentioned in my Interviewing a Prospective Wife posts, the legal and social deck is stacked against men in marriage.  Women are all but encouraged to break their most solemn promise for whatever reason strikes their fancy.  This leaves only the woman’s own moral compass as the force compelling her to keep her sacred commitment.  Fortunately such women still exist, and I do think there are ways to greatly increase your odds of finding such a woman.

One thing to keep in mind is that while attitudes are changing the vast majority of other men still aren’t thinking perfectly clearly about this.  Who reading this hasn’t cringed when a friend or relative rationalized away obvious red flags visible in their future wife?  And how many other men have you tried to explain the things we discuss in the manosphere to, only to have them respond with vehement denial?  This is all backed up by the marriage rate stats.  Pretty much every slut, harpy, and morally flaky woman who chooses to marry is still able to find a sucker husband.

Applying this to Solomon II’s Deacon’s daughter (NSFW), I think a man truly looking for the signs would be able to spot them.  Keep in mind that after taking an extended ride on the carousel what she is likely to be looking for is a beta provider, and unfortunately clueless betas still aren’t hard to find.  While it is theoretically possible that she will put in the hard work to make herself seem just like the real deal, far more likely she will find some hapless beta who won’t look past the assets in the text message and the certified deacon’s daughter stamp of approval.

But not only is finding a sucker easy, credibly faking being a moral woman is not an easy task.  In the interview questions one of the things I stress is will she judge other women who are promiscuous or divorce frivolously.  You can take this a step further by testing her words with (hypothetical) future action.  Would she drop her best friend if she divorced without very serious cause?  Would she refuse to attend a second wedding?  What if it was for her sister?  Would she tell your children that parents who divorce frivolously are bad people?

Remember we live in a world where even religious people cringe at the very idea of passing any sort of moral judgment on women.  Unless you give away the show in how you raise the issue, a faker is very likely to give herself away.  A woman who holds in the back of her mind the right to divorce if she is unhappy/bored/etc isn’t going to want to teach her kids that doing so would make her a bad person. The same goes for her expectations in marriage.  A woman not serious about marriage won’t want to accept clear obligations as a wife.  Chances are she hasn’t even considered it.

Plus rationalization is the hallmark of a dishonest woman.  Some may be outright sociopaths, but most have told themselves that what they did wasn’t really wrong.  Asking them to judge women who first date bad boys and then find nice guys, or who slut around before deciding to marry goes against everything the hamster stands for.  The reality is 99% of the time the hamster will eventually win.  With the garden variety flaky woman/carouseler, you aren’t dealing with a diabolical schemer, you are dealing with an over fed and over-entitled hamster.  Poor impulse control is the hallmark of such a woman.  Tempt her hamster often enough and it will give itself away.

Also, don’t ignore the importance of making sure she really is in love with you.  This will weed out almost all of the unsuitable women all by itself.  Women who have been slutty or who have an unreasonable assessment of their own value are almost guaranteed not to fall fully in love with you unless you are super alpha.  This is why I use the term head over heels in love.  If she isn’t there and you have given it enough time to develop, drive on.  Something is broken which no amount of future marriage counseling can fix.

H/T to Jack for coining the perfect title for this post.

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101 Responses to No Rings for Sluts

  1. jack says:

    To be fair, this article is from Britain, not the US. That said, I would submit that they are simply farther along on the slope of degradation, rather than being altogether different than the US.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1333784/Unemployed-father-10-Keith-Macdonald-having-4-children.html

    Notice something very, very, verrrry similar about most of his lovers?

    This is instructive to me. I once thought that if one wanted a “good girl”, one needed only to date down a notch or two. Verily, verily I was certain that the chubby girls would have great personalities ™ and probably have a better estimation of their market value.

    Alas, the unrestrained female id seems to cause greater damage at the lower end of the sexual-marketplace continuum. The lower-status the girl is, the greater lengths she must go to in order to obtain male attention. Now, some of these girls have okay faces, and I’m sure that there are some never-touched-by-female-hands beta males that would be willing to pursue them.

    However, the rules of intra-female sexual competition will not allow for such an admission of defeat/compromise. What these women are doing is not unlike an Omega man buying an inflatable girlfriend or using a phone-sex line. These women are showing by their actions that they prefer a artificial short-term experience where they can pretend they have an alpha, rather than having a real beta who would value them long-term.

    The biggest losers in the sexual revolution are probably the unattractive women, because unattractive men could always become wealthy or develop enough game to get laid. This, then, is why men should not allow themselves to be badgered into looking for a homely girl with the idea that you would get a more faithful wife.

    If anything, you may end up with even more trouble. Just because she is too ugly to cheat on you does not mean that she will adore and revere you for that fact.

  2. Eric says:

    Dalrock:

    “Fortunately such women do exist, and I think there are ways to increase your odds of finding such a woman.”

    The only way to increase one’s odds of finding such a women is to look ANYWHERE but the United States, unless it’s among our sizable immigrant/minority populations, the odds against an American man finding a decent American woman are less than winning a lottery.

    American culture conditions women to hate men and look at themselves as entiltled goddesses. In fact, the average American female cares nothing for anyone but herself; and there is no possibility of establishing a meaningful relationship with her. They look upon men as expendable and only valuable as sperm donors. Their superiority complexes are so pronounced that they compulsively hate decent men (because they can’t feel superior to us); while they fight over worthless males (because the contrast enhances their egomania).

    American women are just as ruthless and self-centred when it comes to children. Their first impulse upon pregnancy is to rush off to an abortion clinic; if they want to keep the child, it’s usually for nothing more than the hope of child support or benefits. Most of these kids end up getting dumped in day-care centres.

    One of the reasons I abandoned the American relationship scene was when I finally accepted the reality that all these ‘good women out there’ do not exist; I never met one and don’t know anybody else who has, either. The only men I know who ever made a relationship work were ones who married foreign women; all the others ended up worse than they would have been had they stayed single.

  3. JD Returns says:

    More ham-fisted counsel on wife (chattel) shopping from the Yenta of the Manosphere.

    Some might call you a modern day Cotton Mather, I say verily, you are the Aunt Bee of Houston. So obsessed with hymens – how do you find time for the gun range or the glories of the bass boat?

    http://www.mayberry.com/interactive/bio_aunt_bea.htm

    [D: I thought you were gone forever!]

  4. JD Returns says:

    Idly passing thru after day of the turkey; when are you going to do something useful like perhaps posting some unique Christmas cookie recipes? What more is there to say about C-carousels, evil divorcees, and game?

  5. Lovekraft says:

    Great post in that you are pointing out that there are valid reasons for men to be cautious, and women don’t need to be so defensive. Sure, they will resist as their feminist leanings can be quite deepset. But perseverance, focus and consistency is the only option.
    It’s as simple as Reliability and Accountability.

  6. dalrock says:

    Great link Jack. I love this quote:

    The women involved are in a sense as culpable as he is because they’ve clearly made no effort to guard against having a baby with someone they know will not be willing to help them support their child.

    A perfect example of being afraid to pass moral judgment on women.

  7. dalrock says:

    @JD Returns

    Idly passing thru after day of the turkey; when are you going to do something useful like perhaps posting some unique Christmas cookie recipes? What more is there to say about C-carousels, evil divorcees, and game?

    I don’t do recipes. You must have me mixed up with Solomon II.

    You should start your own blog and feature posts on the benefits of marrying sluts. All you have to do is click here and you can get started immediately.

  8. Johnycomelately says:

    “This will weed out almost all of the unsuitable women all by itself. Women who have been slutty or who have an unreasonable assessment of their own value are almost guaranteed not to fall fully in love with you unless you are super alpha.”

    So what numbers are we talking about? Considering most are marrying later what are the potential percentage of ‘wives’ per age bracket? I know post 30 its gotta be <10%, pretty elusive hunting eh?

  9. Omnipitron says:

    “More ham-fisted counsel on wife (chattel) shopping from the Yenta of the Manosphere.”

    No worries though, some are just trying their level best to compete with the mainstream media in what they say about how useless men are. They however do leave a lot to be desired but hey, they are trying.

  10. dalrock says:

    @Johnycomelately
    So what numbers are we talking about? Considering most are marrying later what are the potential percentage of ‘wives’ per age bracket? I know post 30 its gotta be <10%, pretty elusive hunting eh?

    It is a good question. I don’t mean the above or my original set of questions as a single litmus test for men looking to marry. Part of my assumption is that men will tune it somewhat according to their own options and risk preferences. But I think the basic idea should hopefully be helpful.

    But on the question of marrying a woman who doesn’t really love you, even if women capable of falling in love are in very short supply I struggle to imagine why a man would want to take on that type of burden and risk. Not all bargains are worth taking.

  11. Eumaios says:

    But on the question of marrying a woman who doesn’t really love you, even if women capable of falling in love are in very short supply I struggle to imagine why a man would want to take on that type of burden and risk.

    For the love of God, men, forsake the love of such women. Instead, make your way in the world, and make waves in the world as you pursue small greatnesses. You are made in the image of God, and you may remake the world one groove at a time.

  12. Steve says:

    “I once thought that if one wanted a “good girl”, one needed only to date down a notch or two.”

    I think that is a bargain that a lot of men would happily make. Too bad it is not an option anymore. Unlike in the old days:

  13. Vincent Ignatius says:

    Instead of teaching men how to find the right woman to marry, maybe we should be finding an alternative to marriage. Marriage was an institution for a different civilization. Marriage may not be optimal in the modern world, certainly it is not optimal for most men.

    It’s not that some men might not find a decent wife, just that most men won’t find a decent wife in the Anglosphere, and most men would be better off if they realized now that they shouldn’t get married.

    My plan is to knock up a girl in my father’s birth country. I will send money and visit regularly, but I won’t marry her or bring her to the states. Keeping the child there will make my family happy, because then they get to see it often. Keeping the mother of my children close to my family works for me, because my career won’t allow me much time to spend with my wife and children anyway.

  14. DJ says:

    On the other hand, I’m seeing more and more examples of hypergamous, questionable women eating the proverbial sh*t sandwich.

    Case 1. A beautiful blond Russian girl I know: Meets rich Arab. Agrees to marry him. He takes her to Dubai. 6 months later he throws her out on the street with no passport and no money. heh.

    Case 2. My ex. Split from her when she was 28. She’s now almost 35 and desperate. She meets some Indian fella online last June who paints himself up to be a rich, James Bond type who does top secret work, with a mansion in both India and in the US. After exchanging emails for two weeks, he proposes marriage and says they will have kids etc. That was 5 months ago, she still has seen but one picture of him, and every month he has a new excuse not to have met her yet he still games her on the phone and via email. She still believes she is going to marry him, even though he they haven’t met face to face.

    LOL @ my ex.

  15. Thag Jones says:

    DJ, wow. That’s cringeworthy. *headdesk*

  16. dalrock says:

    @Thag
    DJ, wow. That’s cringeworthy.

    Agreed. My wife and I know of a nice late 20s early 30s woman through a mutual friend. We hadn’t seen this woman at the friend’s parties recently so my wife asked about her. Evidently she met a nice Saudi man and decided to marry him. Our friend hasn’t heard from her since. Sometimes hamsters can be extremely dangerous.

  17. dragnet says:

    I have posted several comments at Roissy’s about how to weed out sluts when you’re looking for long-term commitment. Here is an excerpt from one of them:

    “Above all, the key is patience. A lot of times guys will unconsciously realize these red flags and will ignore them either because, 1) they’re starting to like her, or 2) have been thoroughly brainwashed by their feminist social conditioning. For the love of God don’t be that beta. Most women—and people generally—will communicate everything you need to know about them, you just have to know what to look for, be willing to listen and be willing to actually act on the information you are being given.”

    http://roissy.wordpress.com/2010/09/16/why-sluts-make-bad-wives/#comment-206637

  18. Badger Nation says:

    Clueless betatudinal chivalry continues…a comment from the Daily Mail article:

    “I got punched in the face about a month ago by a hammered girl ( I was sober) giving me a volley of abuse. It felt like being hit with a cabbage, and didn’t even give me a bruise. Girls should be reigning men in and acting as a moral brake, not trying to fight. If i’d have punched the girl, I would have knocked her out, and probably ended up in jail. To be honest she deserved a punch, but it doesn’t make it right to hit girls – it’s not right.

  19. jack says:

    Is there not some point where a “woman” forfeits her right to chivalry and is now fair game?

    If she is really trying to beat you down, perhaps a little disincentive would be in order?

  20. Steve says:

    All good points but I have to wonder if the men who opt to avoid starting a family will regret it later. Even if you consider marriage 2.0 to be the greater (greatest?) evil, it is still a question worth considering. Most discussions that even approach this subject usually end with a variation of “well the state and the culture support hypergamy now, the dice are fixed so what can you do?” [shrug]. I could be wrong, but I doubt that there are major political/legal reforms in our favor on the horizon, so little hope on that front. So what now?

  21. Badger Nation says:

    Steve,

    I am struck by a similar dilemma. The MGTOW’s are all well and good, but at the end of the day many, many guys (I am one of them) fundamentally desire a partner and family.

    There’s also the related matter of how to enjoy the world alongside all this red-pilling; as feminists show, a life of perpetual outrage is not the road we want to go down.

    I will tell you one thing – I am grateful for people like Dalrock and Athol Kay, who are happy with their lives but acknowledge the reality, instead of saying “well MY marriage is all well and good so you guys are whiners and/or didn’t do the marriage thing right.”

  22. dalrock says:

    Steve I think you raise a core point here. Those men who want a family would seem to me to be best served to get working sooner rather than later to figure out their own solution. As you say, there is little reason to expect the cultural and legal situation to improve in the near term. Marriage may be fast turning into a smoking ruin of an institution for society, but if you and your wife are committed to it I think that will be what matters most.

    At the same time though, I think it would be cruel to men to deny the risks of just assuming any given woman is on the same page. I also am strongly against any attempts to shame men into marrying out of a sense of duty or obligation. They should only marry if they 1) Understand the risks. and 2) Still feel it is beneficial to them to do so.

  23. I agree with the overall premise, although I hesitated to comment at first, and here’s why: I personally know 3 women who had pasts they are not proud of but who are now devout, godly wives and mothers. Well 2 of them are, one never married. These women are the real deal. Their stories are what made me cringe at this post initially.

    And then it hit me that I have been in and around churches all 39 years of my life and I can only count three women who have clearly been changed as a result of their faith in a way that it showed up in the way they treated thier husbands or in the way they carried themselves when relating to men (in the case of unmarried women). Those are some sorry statistics!

    I have much more often seen “Christian” women unfaithful to their husbands, frivolously divorcing, or leaving the faith suddenly after meeting a man that meant more to them than their religious convictions and abandoning the church was really the only way they could remain with him and have any semblance of peace.

    One of the defining marks of a woman whose faith is the real deal is that she has a true heart for other people. Real compassion that speings into action. Too concerned about herself and her feelings? Red flag, especially for a Christian woman.

    The young lady y’all keep referencing from Solomon II may well be able to pass any superficial tests and answer all the right religious questions the right way, but selfishness is very hard to mask. Whether the woman is a believer or not, I’d say the best way for a guy to gauge whether or not she’s worth his time and effort is to see how much attention she pays to herself.

  24. I just saw the badger nation comment. I think Dalrock is right. Men who want families would do well to start sooner rather than later figuring this out. Good advice.

  25. dalrock says:

    Badger, thanks for the kind words. I didn’t see your reply until after I posted my own.

    Terry: What do you think about my premise about a woman being willing to make judgments. I think past actions are a strong signal of someone’s true thoughts, but there is always the possibility that someone has truly changed, especially by faith. I don’t know how to advise a man on dealing with such a risk, but in the end he is on his own either way. Would you expect a reformed woman to be able to pass judgment on other women? And what form would this take if it were sincere vs non sincere? How would you expect the sincere one vs the insincere one to answer the questions above?

  26. Pol Mordreth says:

    @Eric, Vincent, et al…

    There are actually a lot of good women still in the states. My punch list:
    – Get away from the cities, stay in the small towns and above all stay away from girls with college degrees. If she has a job, not a career, both of you will be happier. A job is disposable once the rugrats come along as long as you have been reasonable with your money.
    – Check her parents marital status and how both she and her mother treat her father.How her mother treats her father is how she will treat you… its what she thinks is normal.
    – get her young. Out of high school and living in her own space long enough to know just how much a daily grind sucks. 19 to 21 is good for that. She is more trainable then. If she has a good relationship with her father a 10 year age gap will be nothing to her.
    – Use dalrock’s pre-qualifier list. Tailor it, as he says. but it’s a great collection of information.

    Regards,
    Pol

  27. Badger Nation says:

    Here’s another Daily Mail article…sounds like the UK restricts women from the battlefield in part due to concerns that white-knighting will reduce unit effectiveness!

    “Women to remain banned from fighting on frontline… in case men die trying to save them”

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1334123/Women-remain-banned-fighting-frontline–case-men-die-trying-save-them.html

  28. Here’s the thing: Most of the time women with a past are more sympathetic to women struggling to find their way. I think they are criticalof women who profess faith but still, after an extended period, show no signs of change. But they, like most people who can relate to another person’s struggles, would be slow to pass judgment at first.

    I do think a woman of genuine faith and conviction would quickly distance herself from a friend or family member whose faith is one of profession but no fruit, an obvious hypocrite who has no intention of living what they claim to believe. Scripture commands as much.

    How a man would deal with such an instance is a tough one, to be sure.

  29. I like Pol’s comment. Most people, however, frown greatly upon marrying that young.

  30. Pol Mordreth says:

    @terry: its the feminist brainwashing that makes many frown upon marrying that young. Any woman serious about marriage and children should be marrying at the peak of her attractiveness, and having children fairly soon while she still has the greatest probability of 1: having healthy children; and 2: getting her body to bounce back to optimal health quicker afterward.

    Regards,
    Pol

  31. dalrock says:

    @Terry
    I like Pol’s comment. Most people, however, frown greatly upon marrying that young.

    And then their own choice not to marry young becomes their rationalization for not remaining chaste…

  32. dalrock says:

    @Terry
    Here’s the thing: Most of the time women with a past are more sympathetic to women struggling to find their way. I think they are criticalof women who profess faith but still, after an extended period, show no signs of change. But they, like most people who can relate to another person’s struggles, would be slow to pass judgment at first.

    Thanks!

    I have to say it wouldn’t make me feel better about taking a risk on such a person. Sometimes easy judgment can be a sign of hypocrisy, but I think far more often unwillingness to judge the big things is an effort to shield oneself from judgment. As I see it one who has truly repented has first held the clear light of judgment on themselves. I think we see this with ex addicts being the harshest on current or relapsing addicts. They see right through all of the BS because they told themselves the same lies once and refuse to do so again. A woman who divorced frivolously but claims to have changed would not convince me if she struggled to call another woman’s frivolous divorce for what it was or show clear disapproval by her actions.

    I think another way to look at it is where their sympathy lies. Someone who has truly repented has true sympathy for the victims of their own sins. When they see someone else victimizing similar innocents it should bother them greatly because they truly empathize with the innocent. Someone who hasn’t repented has more sympathy for those being called a sinner than the people the sinner is harming.

    Am I off base here?

  33. jack says:

    Interesting note, Terry, about the three women who did change for the better.

    I hate to think that some of those changed women might not have a second chance to find a husband, but it goes to an issue of trust. The small number of women who seem to actually change for real makes marrying a former party girl too risky for any man who is thinking clearly.

    There are other problems, which become very difficult to resolve.

    1) In order to overlook her previous promiscuity, I would have to know that it was not rationalized away as “Oh, I was wild in college, but these experiences made me who I am…”. I would need her to feel deep remorse over the fact that she was a former slut. Problem is, how could I wish that on someone whom I supposedly love enough to marry? But if she doesn’t feel remorse and sweeps it away as water under the bridge, then the fact that she has defrauded her husband of her virtue is has not REALLY been dealt with.

    Verdict: Possibly irreconcilable.

    2) Cheapening of sex/emotional bonding: This is problematic. With each additional sexual partner she has had, sex will become less meaningful. At a certain point, sex will become nothing more than a form of currency; something she trades for attention from the “right” kind of male. Also, sex will be seen as a recreational activity after a while and its meaning will be diluted. With each additional fk-buddy or hookup (or even boyfriend), she will diminish the meaningfulness of sex. This practically guarantees that her future husband will be less meaningful to her as a sex partner than that awesome hockey player she dated for 9 months in college.

    Verdict: Irreconcilable. Weakened marriage.

    This leads us to:

    3) If a girl has been with more than 5 or 6 guys, the odds are that at least one of them was selected purely for his “alphaness” (if she’s been with 10+ guys, all bet are off). Fair enough, I suppose, but consider the viewpoint of the average man. His wife has had a sexual benchmark set that he cannot hope to ever meet. This is usually where snide women start calling him “insecure”. I call him realistic. What happens when the honeymoon is over and marriage settles down to the everyday grind.

    SHE WILL REMEMBER that time when she “felt like a women” with Mr. Hockey Guy. This girl is much more likely to cheat sneakily, since she know where the “feel like a woman” feelings come from. Guys that were not her husband. By sleeping around, she has practically GUARANTEED that there will a deficit of sexual bonding in the marriage.

    Verdict: Not inevitable that she will cheat, but inevitable that she will think about it. A lot. If her husband was not the source of her most powerful (or best yet ONLY) sexual peak experiences, we have problems.

  34. Johnycomelately says:

    Terry, about the three women who did change for the better. Its called fooling a beta provider, so you can have your cake and eat it too, aint that neat!

  35. jack says:

    I’m not sure that is fair.

    While I am skeptical that most people will change, I know that some have. I think Terry is observant enough to discern the difference between a faker and the real deal.

  36. Vincent Ignatius says:

    Pol

    There are actually a lot of good women still in the states. My punch list:

    Sure, with such a large population, the US must have many good women, even if 99% are garbage. The problem is that the relative abundance of good women is extremely compared to the abundance of good men.

  37. Steve says:

    I think that women with a past would get a much warmer reception if ironclad guarantees could be made that everything could be good going forward. Such guarantees are impossible and so hypothetical.

  38. Hope says:

    A former party girl would not lack options if she does decide to settle. Generalizing of course, but party girls tend to be more attractive and gregarious than average girls, dress more fashionably and look better overall. They also have a certain outgoing, confident demeanor that makes them stand out compared to shy, mousy girls. They don’t lack male attention, and I suspect in many cases guys would overlook the risks to be with such a girl over a chubby non-party girl. People also tend to ascribe positive, even moral, qualities to those who are good looking, and lots of guys are duped by a pretty smile. It’s an instinctive reaction, and the effects only last until an attractive woman’s looks fade, but I think the girl in Solomon II’s post will have no problems getting a ring on her finger as long as she’s not too picky.

  39. dalrock says:

    @VI
    Sure, with such a large population, the US must have many good women, even if 99% are garbage. The problem is that the relative abundance of good women is extremely compared to the abundance of good men.

    Fortunately most other men aren’t paying the level of attention to this that they should be. When you have different criteria than most other shoppers you can often get great bargains. It isn’t that most men don’t care, but they don’t take it seriously enough.

  40. dalrock says:

    Hope, I agree with you. My point is not to be that guy.

  41. jack says:

    Hope-

    I don’t mean to be pedantic, but the use of the word “settle”, of course implies that one is “settling” for less than what is deserved. If people mean that they are settling on their expectations, that is a different matter.

    I want a 25 year old supermodel, but I am willing to settle for a nice Christian girl. The word has become meaningless. A large part of the reason why it is meaningless is because when we talk about settling, we seldom talk about the expectations from which said person is compromising.

    Many party girls who are a 6 will consider themselves to be settling with a male 6, but only because they were accustomed to receiving attention from male 8s or higher. But this is only because these women were unable to differentiate between short-term and long-term interest.

    That is not real settling, of course.

    Men are getting wise to this aspect of female nature, and our current culture permits and makes excuses for womens’ bad behavior to a much greater degree than men.

    Guys are wising up.

    Yes, an attractive girl will not likely go without male attention.

    But good luck if she wants a lifetime commitment. This will be much harder.

    To quote one blogger – I will not put a ring on a finger that has been wrapped around a couple dozen frat boys’ d***s.

    Beauty is not forever, but character usually is. With the best of their beauty gone, and the risk that their character will persist, I guess that most guys won’t give a slut a wedding ring.

  42. Badger Nation says:

    “I guess that most guys won’t give a slut a wedding ring.”

    What about this – former party girl marrying former party guy, both rationalize that their partner’s party days were a phase and that they’ve outgrown? (I.e. frat guys and sorority girls marrying each other?)

    This could be a VERY volatile relationship, since it’s a subconscious prisoner’s dilemma to rationalize the other person’s misbehavior along with your own…once you pop the bubble of saying your partner’s heydey was OK, you bring internalized shame and disgust upon yourself at the same time.

    Sounds like a major mindfu**.

  43. Hope says:

    Jack, I used the word “settle” in the sense of “calming down,” being more stable, and abandoning the party life to have a family. As people grow older they inevitably have less time for the antics of youth. I only ever watched the party scene from the sidelines, never having stepped foot in a club nor gotten drunk, but I know popular girls in high school and college who did this, complete with pictures of themselves holding up drinks and in tight dance outfits. Many of these girls are now getting engaged or married. I don’t know these girls well enough to know if they have “settled” in the sense you mentioned, but they do seem to be doing that thing where the girls in a social group will get married off one by one.

  44. Steve says:

    Hope, you make a good point but the problem is that mid tier girls, the 4s, 5s, and 6s, have followed their hotter sisters out into the hookup scene. There only long term prospects are male 4s, 5s, and 6s, a big downgrade from what they get in hookups. IOW what jack said.

  45. “SHE WILL REMEMBER that time when she “felt like a women” with Mr. Hockey Guy.”

    True I suppose. That is why the best option is to be the man who makes her feel like a woman. The easiest way of doing that is being her first serious boyfriend. Be the man that deflowers her, because being deflowered naturally impresses a woman. And, for Goodness’ sake, when you fuck her, fuck her.

    I am not a “hockey player” or even particularly tough, but I have always been “tough” in the bedroom.

  46. No, Dalrock, you are not off base. As one who was locked away from boys for 18 years :), left home at 20, met my husband at 21, and married at 22, it’s easy for me to fall into a judgmental attitude toward the women who partied their way through their 20′s. A woman who came out of that lifestyle is more sympathetic. I have a soft spot for girls who grew up without mothers. It’s how most of us are wired.

    A woman who divorced frivolously but claims to have changed would not convince me if she struggled to call another woman’s frivolous divorce for what it was or show clear disapproval by her actions.

    Here’s where I agree with you: while people who have truly repented have sympathy for the people still “caught up” in a destructive cycle, they tend (or at least they should) have a little less sympathy for the women who claim to have turned over a new leaf when they really haven’t.

    Some of the most vocal opponents I know of premarital sex, feminist dogma, divorce, and abortions are women who, by virtue of being raised no other way, came away from that lifestyle.

    So you have a point. A big issue within modern Christendom is the fear of being “judgmental.” I think that notion has been stretched to a degree that Scripture does not support. It’s just one more way that liberal feminist ideology has crept into the church.

  47. “Some of the most vocal opponents I know of premarital sex, feminist dogma, divorce, and abortions are women who, by virtue of being raised no other way, came away from that lifestyle.”

    Yup, that’s me for one.

  48. One more thought: The reality is that a man’s chances of marrying a chaste woman increases exponentially if she is 1) devout and or raised by devout parents, and 2) has a strong protective father. Most men who are looking for a good time when they’re in their 20′s shun these types of young women, and even mock them since they can’t get what they want out of them. Not to mention the fact that a greater percentage of the population is growing hostile toward religion with each passing generation.

    Those women, like me (I don’t mean to sound proud. it’s just true) get married early to men smart enough to appreciate that it’s worth it to get those girls early rather than take a chance on not finding one later.

    I think it’s a wee bit hypocritical for some of the men who lodge this complaint to suddenly bemoan the lack of chaste women when they spent their younger years trying to deflower as many young women as they possibly could. I’m just sayin’.

  49. The easiest way of doing that is being her first serious boyfriend.

    Unproven Theoretical Concept: Would the whispers from a woman that has access to an alpha male eat away at the loyalty of another woman in a long term relationship?

  50. dalrock says:

    @Terry

    I think it’s a wee bit hypocritical for some of the men who lodge this complaint to suddenly bemoan the lack of chaste women when they spent their younger years trying to deflower as many young women as they possibly could. I’m just sayin’.

    I think this is fair. It is a bit of a dilemma though because virgin women still expect their future husband to have all of the knowledge that comes with practice. Plus they tend to prefer men several years older than them. But my basic advice to men and women is the same; if you want to marry get serious about it now. This doesn’t mean either should jump into something just to do it though.

    I wish I could say that men could simply find religious girls or those who grew up with a certain kind of family. While it does seem that most of the women who take marriage seriously are religious, the stats show that religious women don’t take marriage more seriously than atheist women on average. I shudder to think how many men have made the mistake of assuming his religious bride really believed in the basics of morality.

    @Laura Grace Robins
    Yup, that’s me for one.

    Interesting. Thanks for the insight.

  51. First thing. I did not spend my youth trying to deflower virgins. In fact, I was specifically asked by one young friend of my sister to deflower her, and I refused. I only deflowered the woman I am still married to. I was never a “player”.

    Second thing, any man can be an “alpha”, if he chooses the right girl and acts like a normal man. It comes naturally with the right girl, and you should bond. I would enjoin any young man to forget the feminist crap and royally bang any girl (especially wife) you are interested in keeping. Make sure she bonds to you, and never wonders what “alpha” is like. Be her alpha. And if she demurs, dump her. Feminism makes women behave unnaturally, or at least pretend to. They will make you beta and seem perfectly happy until a “real man” comes along and they suddenly realise that they are stuck with a wimp.

    The only other woman I ever slept with did exactly that. Was unfaithful with me because she was disappointed in her wimpy husband.

  52. JackAmok says:

    “Fortunately most other men aren’t paying the level of attention to this that they should be. When you have different criteria than most other shoppers you can often get great bargains. It isn’t that most men don’t care, but they don’t take it seriously enough.”

    In an uncivilized society men are, for better or worse, meant to be in competition with one another for mating opportunities. So out-competing your rivals by being smarter and better informed is what’s called for.

    If we can ever recreate a civilized society, we can go back to having nearly every man and woman get an opportunity at a fulfilling life and loving progeny. In the meantime, find and marry the worthwhile women before someone else does.

  53. The MGTOW’s are all well and good, but at the end of the day many, many guys (I am one of them) fundamentally desire a partner and family.

    I look at some of the MGTOW as somewhat angry and bitter for justifiable reasons, but I suspect there’s a small minority of us who aren’t as bitter and contemptuous of women, but once we realize the truth, we don’t really want to bother anymore. Once one’s dreams and fantasies are crushed, it’s understandable to see such a person may not want to engage in that process anymore. So once you realize women like alphas and how hypergamy plays out, it seems sensible for some men to opt out once they realize they can’t compete. I’m left wondering what will become of these men as our current sexual marketplace plays out.

  54. It is a bit of a dilemma though because virgin women still expect their future husband to have all of the knowledge that comes with practice.

    Another case of short-sightedness in my opinion. Too many romance novels and Hollywood movies, maybe to blame? A couple has more than enough time and opportunity (the rest of their lives!) to practice and get marital intimacy perfect. With plenty of open communication, there’s really no reason why any one of the two should need to spend years practicing. There are also the inherent risks of sexual promiscuity no matter how “safe” a person tries to be.

  55. theobsidianfiles says:

    DA,
    What will happen when Omegas like you simply drop out? Nothing – life will simply go on, is all. It has been said that about 40% of all Men never go on to have genetic heirs anyway; Omega Males have always been a reality for humanity, and our common folk wisdom acknowledges this; notice how until very recently we didn’t even have a term to refer to such Males, that’s how much they weren’t even on the radar screen. Now look at the term Spinster. We are very concerned about Women who for whatever reason never finds a mate, because eggs expensive, sperm cheap.

    So, don’t worry. No one will come out wit a search party if and when you finally decide to take a plunge and dropout from society. Simply put, you won’t matter.

    O.

  56. Steve says:

    Badger,

    “There’s also the related matter of how to enjoy the world alongside all this red-pilling; as feminists show, a life of perpetual outrage is not the road we want to go down.”

    I totally agree. If you dodge the divorce/infidelity bullets but end up resentful then that is not much of an improvement. There is a lot of unproductive resentment floating around the MRA/Game community and I am as guilty of this as anyone. A bit of venting can be good, but eventually you have to focus on making the most of what you have. Better to at least be willing to take calculated risks than to risk nothing and accomplish little.

  57. Zammo says:

    Just an observation –

    Women are told to “never settle”

    Men are told to “settle down”. Not only is that settling, it’s also DOWN.

  58. Vincent Ignatius says:

    Obsidian
    What will happen when Omegas like you simply drop out? Nothing

    The long-term effects of men dropping out of society will be very bad. Maybe a large fraction of men never go on to reproduce, but they certainly help maintain civilization. If these men suddenly dropped out and stopped even trying to succeed, society would go downhill.

  59. Anonymous Reader says:

    It is a bit of a dilemma though because virgin women still expect their future husband to have all of the knowledge that comes with practice.

    Terry@breathinggrace
    Another case of short-sightedness in my opinion. Too many romance novels and Hollywood movies, maybe to blame?

    I think it goes deeper than that. Women generally don’t want to have to make the first move if there is any danger of rejection, and they don’t want to feel that the man they are with doesn’t know what he is doing. Women like confidence, and competence, regardless of what pop culture says.

    (This brings up an interesting tangent: pop culture in sitcoms on TV and movies generally treats fathers as incompetent doofi, yet still clings to older ‘sweep her off her feet’ romanticism in non-married situations rather often. Married beta vs. single alpha…)

    A couple has more than enough time and opportunity (the rest of their lives!) to practice and get marital intimacy perfect. With plenty of open communication, there’s really no reason why any one of the two should need to spend years practicing.

    If I may be so bold, perhaps premarital counseling should include some discreet “pillow books” for men. Many women don’t like to think about such things, they just want to be “swept away”, but some might benefit from reading, too. It’s funny, given the saturation in magazines such as “Cosmo” of sex tips, just how little many women and men seem to know about the topic. Single men who are still on the market tell me things about their experiences that leads me to believe the average young woman doesn’t know any more about male sexual response now than they did 35 years ago, to be blunt.

    Sexuality in marriage should be like cooking in marriage; everyone should know the basics, everyone should have a decent cookbook, and couples should work out what they like in their private sphere. The same basic ingredients in the kitchen can be prepared in varying ways to serve different meals, as anyone who cooks should know. Ditto for the bedroom.

    There are also the inherent risks of sexual promiscuity no matter how “safe” a person tries to be.

    This cannot be repeated too often. Consider the PAP smear that women undergo; a woman who married as a virgin to a man who also was a virgin would never, ever need one. Because her chances of contracting the virus in question are zero. Consider chlamydia: cases with no symptoms are not rare anymore, and condoms only reduce the chances of contracting it, they do not protect 100%. That disease is relevant because of the effects upon a woman’s reproductive chances. Herpes simplex isn’t as dangerous, but it also is a lifetime problem. And so forth, and so on.

    “Sowing wild oats” is quite a bit more dangerous than it was back when the baby boomers were in their 20′s.

  60. Brendan says:

    The long-term effects of men dropping out of society will be very bad. Maybe a large fraction of men never go on to reproduce, but they certainly help maintain civilization. If these men suddenly dropped out and stopped even trying to succeed, society would go downhill.

    The tipping point depends on how much having enough money to enjoy bread and circuses can still motivate men to work reasonably hard. In other words, how much will Warcraft (and its successors) and internet porn (and its successors) be enough to keep the rising number of sexual drop-outs sated enough to keep working. Remember, in a society like the United States, which is heading towards becoming Brazil North quite literally, you don’t want or need this Lumpen to be “successful”. You just need them to be motivated enough to keep working away at their dead end jobs so that the top tier can benefit.

  61. Badger Nation says:

    “Women generally don’t want to have to make the first move if there is any danger of rejection”

    This exact concept has come up in at least five threads in the last month between Haley’s Halo, Hooking Up Smart and Dalrock. It’s also probably the single most common pathology I see among young women – a dynamic combination of entitlement, laziness, rationalization and risk aversion. Young women just don’t want to be put on the spot; one would think those fancy college courses they are outnumbering men in would have contained a unit teaching them the simple fact that taking managed risk is the only way one can succeed. (They’d probably just complain the world unfairly favored men in that regard.)

  62. Brendan says:

    I think the dynamic of women not making the first move will not change anytime soon. Women use this not only to avoid being rejected, but also to gauge male interest. There are enough guys out there who will “go along for the ride” if they have nothing at risk, even if they aren’t really that interested in the woman, especially if sex is on the table. So many women take the view that waiting for the man to make the first move is an indicator that at least he is interested enough in her to risk rejection — if she makes the first move, she has no indicator like that, and given the disparate appetites of men and women for casual sex (i.e. men will have more of it with more women, whereas women will have it with a smaller concentration of men), it can be a situation that isn’t very good for women.

  63. Badger Nation says:

    Brendad,

    I agree with your analysis. I don’t expect women to start hitting on men and asking them out en masse (although carousel riders will continue to do it for top-shelf men).

    What I DO think would help is if young women gave up the learned helplessness and rationalized passivity, the old “it’s HIS job to do all the pursuing” attitude. I know a lot of girls who have the idea that if they sit at a bar alone/with female friends, not giving men eyes or otherwise giving hints of interest, it’s still manhood deficiency that causes them to not get hit on.

    Most of a woman’s social power is “soft power,” and they need to embrace its use.

  64. Brendan says:

    That I agree with. Knowing how/when to make a clear IOI is important, as is the ability to flirt, and even to shit test a bit.

  65. @Anonymous Reader:

    This cannot be repeated too often. Consider the PAP smear that women undergo; a woman who married as a virgin to a man who also was a virgin would never, ever need one. Because her chances of contracting the virus in question are zero. Consider chlamydia: cases with no symptoms are not rare anymore, and condoms only reduce the chances of contracting it, they do not protect 100%. That disease is relevant because of the effects upon a woman’s reproductive chances. Herpes simplex isn’t as dangerous, but it also is a lifetime problem. And so forth, and so on.

    “Sowing wild oats” is quite a bit more dangerous than it was back when the baby boomers were in their 20′s.

    You are 100% correct! Like anything people are beginning to learn for the first time, competence takes time to acquire. In the case of marital intimacy the motivation factor should be so high that a little communication and practice go a long way in a short period of time. There really are areas in life where patient learning is more desireable than a wealth of experienced gained from risky behavior.

  66. P.T. Barnum says:

    The tipping point depends on how much having enough money to enjoy bread and circuses can still motivate men to work reasonably hard. In other words, how much will Warcraft (and its successors) and internet porn (and its successors) be enough to keep the rising number of sexual drop-outs sated enough to keep working. Remember, in a society like the United States, which is heading towards becoming Brazil North quite literally, you don’t want or need this Lumpen to be “successful”. You just need them to be motivated enough to keep working away at their dead end jobs so that the top tier can benefit.

    Why pull your punches? The question is can a call girl twice a week keep a man motivated to work AS HARD AS HE CAN. The answer is, of course not. Because a call girl twice a week doesn’t cost as much as a wife.

    A man needs a state enforcer in the house, a wife, to make sure he does as his owners tell him regardless of personal consequences. Nothing less will work. Your whistling past the graveyard.

  67. Eric says:

    JD Returns:

    Maybe you can enlighten all us ham-fisted, gun-toting yentas by answering these two simple questions:

    1. Exactly what is it about American women that you find so appealling that makes them worthy of ANY attention from ANY decent men?

    2. Has being a decent man EVER won the heart of even one these bitches, or do they all compulsively throw decent men aside like a bag of garbage and jump into bed with the first scumbag available?

  68. Eric says:

    Pol Meredith:

    It’s irrelevant. American women will find a reason to hate men because they are too egocentric to care about anybody else. That’s why they gravitate to the lowest and most dysfunctional men: such males reinforce their superiority complexes. That’s also why they treat good men as expendable; they have to compete with them to prove their superiority. Their attitude towards relationships center on men they can despise, not men they can love; because they are incapable of feeling actual love.

    1. Rural women: are conditioned to hate men from the cities. Sure, I could argue that I was born in the country—that will just ‘prove’ to them how stupid I am. Why would a guy from the city go to the countryside unless his intentions are bad? And we all know that men never have good intentions…

    2. How Mommy treats Daddy: about 75% of American mothers are complete bitches who’ve treated the father like garbage and taught their daughters that all men are scum and good for nothing but donating sperm and paying child support.

    3. Younger women: great in theory, but since I’m over 30; I am automatically a ‘dirty old man’ or ‘a creepy older dude’ by definition. (Of course, this definition doesn’t apply to older guys who really ARE dirty and creepy, the bitches will make exceptions for them).

    Why bother with these bitches at all? It’s easier (and arguably cheaper) to travel outside the country and meet some real women who don’t reflexively hate men. The percentages of actually finding a realistic relationship are much higher abroad.

  69. How Mommy treats Daddy: about 75% of American mothers are complete bitches who’ve treated the father like garbage and taught their daughters that all men are scum and good for nothing but donating sperm and paying child support.

    I often lamented the fact that I spent the first 9 years of my life without a mother, and after that a stepmother with good intentions, but her own kids to consider.

    If there was any good thing to come from what was at times a painful existence, it’s that I have a great appreciation for the role of a father in a child’s life as well as for how capable a man is when it comes to raising kids. Of course, my dad was determined that a girl needs a mother, and I guess he had a point.

    My point is that not all women view men the way you seem to think we do. And yes, I know I qualify as an outlier, but I know for a fact that there are other women who agree with my perspective.

  70. Badger Nation says:

    “That’s why they gravitate to the lowest and most dysfunctional men: such males reinforce their superiority complexes. ”

    Funny you mention this. My girlfriend once told me that she and her friends had a thought process in college that went like this: they had been brought up to think they were more “moral” than men, so they naturally sought relationships with relatively seedy guys to fulfill the prophecy – the superiority complex, as you aptly put it. Predictably, the guys treated them like dirt, but the hamster told the girls this was the normal order of things. Predictably, they failed at the next phase, the “women civilize men” program.

    Another reason I won’t teach my sons OR my daughters the pedestalization lies.

  71. Johnycomelately says:

    “So, don’t worry. No one will come out wit a search party if and when you finally decide to take a plunge and dropout from society. Simply put, you won’t matter.”

    No no no no, sorry Obsid you are completely wrong hear, the Omegas pick up the trash after the divorse (I litteraly know hundreds of guys who have married women with children), without these guys the proverbial shit hits the fan. Rome didn’t collapse in a day.

  72. Dalrock,
    “@Laura Grace Robins
    Yup, that’s me for one.

    Interesting. Thanks for the insight.”

    Yeah, I often get assumed for being born and raised a sheltered Christian girl. Hardly. My parents provided little direction and encouraged the “as long as it makes you happy” attitude. This was not good for me. I can only wish I hadn’t seen and experienced all the things I did in my liberal, feminist days. Although I never formally called myself feminist or liberal, I certainly lived by their ideals (as you absorb it in the culture) and it was damaging….to a point where only God’s grace could save me. However, I am grateful for my experiences, as they give me a zealous passion and conviction for all the things I write about now. I now realize how sinful and fallen the world really is and I shudder at the thought of being my old self and addicted to worldly philosophies (i.e. feminism).

  73. JD Returns says:

    Howdy Eric! Your questions below:

    1. “Exactly what is it about American women that you find so appealling that makes them worthy of ANY attention from ANY decent men?”

    American women refers to a HUGE population; I really don’t think ALL these women are whores, sluts, etc. Everyone tends to generalize and exaggerate, but dude, really!
    If you’re doing your woman hunting exclusively in bars, clubs, boozy parties and similar venues, I’m not surprised you’re so disgusted with the results. Try other places and give the merely “cute” girls a chance; those hotties can be little bitches!

    Decent is a relative term; what do you consider “decent?” By all means, try purchasing a foreign bride if you just can’t find anything up to your standards in America; it’s a popular theme on the manosphere, but I suspect not many men are following through on it. If so, I hope they use caution; bound to be some major scamming going on!

    2. Has being a decent man EVER won the heart of even one these bitches, or do they all compulsively throw decent men aside like a bag of garbage and jump into bed with the first scumbag available?

    I suspect your angry personality and chip on the shoulder is failing to win the heart of any woman, be she angel or bitch. People are getting married every day – must be some decent men and non-bitches managing to meet and fall in love enough to marry.

    Maybe you just need to take a break from the delightful world of dating and just work on yourself and your issues; talk to your friends. This is advice I’d give to anyone who is just exhausted and burned out on the whole dating business; not meaning to “shame” you.

  74. nothingbutthetruth says:

    “People are getting married every day ”

    No one doubts that. They are also getting divorced every day and staying in loveless marriages every day. If you add divorce with bad marriages, the failure rate of marriage in America is overwhelming.

    “I really don’t think ALL these women are whores, sluts, etc.”

    I don’t think so either. Is this an example of NAWALT? But not every non-whore and non-slut is worth marrying. The divorce rate between Christian people is higher than between secular people.

    “American women refers to a HUGE population”

    But American men refer to a HUGE population too. The problem is not about absolute numbers but about percentages.

    I accept that there are American women that are worth marrying but they are a minority (less than 50%) and have a huge demand. Trying to find a needle in a haystack when some other men are looking for the needle too.

    We are talking about trends here. If I say, African people have darker skin than Australian people, somebody could repply “But not all Australian people are white and not all African people are black”. No, but we are not talking about Mr. So-and-So who is white and lives in Africa. We are talking ABOUT MAJORITIES.

    When I lived in America, I was astounded about the bad quality of American women. I am not talking about their fatness, about their rudeness, about their sluttiness. These are secondary things. I am talking about their personality, about their sense of entitlement, about their shallowness, about their being self-centered, obsessed with status and resources, spoiled and, in general, insufferable.

    Being an European and having lived for a decade in Latin America, I know different kinds of “foreign” women. You haven’t seen a real woman if you have not been abroad. (Immigrants don’t count because they became quickly spoiled by American culture)

    As an American men, you have four options:

    1- Trying to find the needle in a haystack and try to marry “the right” woman, in a culture that encourages women to divorce (“Eat, Pray, Love”) and to be entitled and selfish. Good luck with that because, if you are mistaken when you choose your wife or she changes, you are for a lot of hurt and misery.

    2- Learning Game and doing pump and dump. I never understood the charm in devoting your life to finding the thousandth hole to stick your willy in, but if this is your thing…

    3- Going MGTOW and spend pleasant time doing whatever you want.

    4- Expatting and marrying a foreign woman. Please, don’t bring her into America. The culture is toxic there.

    I am not American but I did the fourth thing and I am very happy about that.

  75. Eric says:

    Nothingbutthetruth:

    You’re exactly right. I’ve spent a lot of time in foreign countries, and haven’t been involved with American bitches for over a year now. Your fourth option is the only sensible conclusion a man could come to.

    You’ll notice that JD Returns, like all Anglobitch defenders, immediately shifts the blame onto the men. In America, it is ALWAYS the man’s fault, no matter what: the underlying issue is that American women have such a low opinion of men and such a high opinion of themselves that men can never be anything but at fault.

    My supposed ‘anger issues’ and ‘unrealistic standards’ (shaming tactics) are cases in point. Somehow, they’ve never stopped me from making meaningful relationships with foreign women, from widely varying cultures. The point is, expecting ANYTHING meaningful from a relationship with an American female is complete waste of time. You’ll notice that are numerous dating sites for American men to meet foreign women; but nothing for American women to meet foreign men. Unless they’re masochists, foreign men want nothing to do with them and neither should we.

    ‘The delightful world of dating’ is a hell for American men and the only thing worse is ‘the delightful world of marriage’. Until there is some social movement among American women to start behaving like human beings again, a man’s best option is avoiding them.

  76. Eric says:

    Terry:

    If you’re talking of women in your mother’s generation and before, you’re right; but things have changed. ‘Not all women have these negative attitudes?’ I don’t believe it. I doubt seriously that the majority of American women between the ages of 15-50 have ever been in love (with anybody but themselves) even once in their lives. Men and even children are completely expendable once the expediency of a relationship is over from the female perspective.

  77. JD Returns says:

    Eric:

    Move to Europe.
    Stay there.
    Please.

    [D: Says the woman who promised to go away and never return, and then came back as a troll. Like I said before, don’t go away mad.]

  78. Bob says:

    I’d be really interested in seeing the continued discussion of reformed bad girls. More as an intellectual challenge than anything else – I’m not going to take that risk personally. Maybe build off the point about judging the fake reformers.

    I do find it funny that JD couldn’t even list one positive trait of American women. Typically, before I mock what I perceive as a stupid question, I try to point out one or two obvious answers, but that’s just me. For example: American women are more likely than Brazilian or Czech girls to have a rich daddy you can leech off of.

  79. Omnipitron says:

    “Eric:

    Move to Europe.
    Stay there.
    Please.”

    You First

  80. The Deuce says:

    Bob:

    I do find it funny that JD couldn’t even list one positive trait of American women. Typically, before I mock what I perceive as a stupid question, I try to point out one or two obvious answers, but that’s just me.

    I’ve noticed something that Manosphere/Game-hating women, from Lady Raine, to Escapist/Pterodactyl, to JD here, to that recent anonymous whiner on Susan’s forum all have in common: They practically never present data, or even arguments, to challenge the truth of the theories and ideas they’re attacking.

    Petty snark, yes, plenty of that. Shaming ties snark for first place. Lots of attempts at mockery. They love to ascribe beliefs that they believe are self-evidently ludicrous and outmoded, and then laugh at people for supposedly holding those beliefs (eg JD’s “chattel” remark aimed at dalrock, or insinuating that Susan is a proponent of being a “Submissive Helpmeet”).

    But they pretty much never present any rational, objective challenge to the truth of the actual views being presented. The closest I’ve seen is garbage like “Well, I know this guy who is alpha in real life, and he thinks Gamers are losers!”

    Given that they’re trying to argue *against* the idea that women are emotion-driven and prone to making illogical rationalizations, you’d expect that they’d go out of their way not make themselves evidence for that premise. Well, okay, you’d expect that if you didn’t realize that women are emotion-driven and prone to making illogical rationalizations :-D.

  81. Omnipitron says:

    Sorry, my post to was addressed to JD, not for Eric.

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  87. detinennui32 says:

    Bob:

    “I’d be really interested in seeing the continued discussion of reformed bad girls. More as an intellectual challenge than anything else – I’m not going to take that risk personally. Maybe build off the point about judging the fake reformers.”

    I am really late to this thread. I think Jack, Terry@breathinggrace, Laura Grace Robins and Dalrock have the correct takes here.

    I’ve known three kinds of “reformed sluts”. There are two categories. The first is the vast majority. She left the slut lifestlyle because she got kicked off the carousel, but has had no change of heart.

    The second is almost always a churchgoer and “talks the talk”. Her “reformation” is false, because she rationalizes away her past as “youthful indiscretion” and demands that she not be judged for it.

    The third is rare, but can be found. She is a true reformed slut and could possibly be worthy of marriage. She has, in my estimation, the following characteristics:

    1. A slut can reform herself but it takes enormous work and dedication to leave that life behind. She approaches quitting sluthood as akin to addiction recovery.
    She must completely repent and abandon the lifestyle and all its remnants. Her repentance must be genuine and her remorse heartfelt. She is candidly disgusted by her own past conduct, and will say so to her friends.

    2. She has to come to terms with all the consequences of that lifestyle. I know somw with incurable STDs. I know some with infertility issues. Because of those issues, they have willingly and gracefully accepted that because of their pasts, most will consider them unacceptable marriage material. They have worked through the bitterness and the issues that brought them to their current state and through the issues that led them to the slut lifeslyle in the first place.

    3. There must be a genuine, deep, and permanent change in her conduct, demeanor and lifestyle. That lasting change must be at least a year long without “relapse” and preferably longer. A year is a long time to play false with one’s life. The change manifests itself in nearly every area of her life: dress, makeup, hairstyle, industry, food and drink consumption, eschewing vulgar language, and adoption of a more demure and reverent demeanor,

    4. She rejects excuses and rationalization from sluts. She harshly judges the carousel lifestyle and those women who practice it, and she avoids its practitioners except to help bring them out of the lifestlyle. She does this largely because she knows exactly what it does to a woman. She knows, because she remembers all too well that she brought all those things upon herself.

    5. She has had a religious experience. Without getting too much into faith or doctrine, I don’t believe a slut can “reform” without faith. I don’t believe a slut can reform under her own power and will. The hamster is simply too strong.

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  89. Anonymous says:

    This thread may not be monitored anymore, but I think perhaps Dalrock will see it and offer an opinion.
    Background: My wife left me and my toddler son two years ago when she literally went crazy. We were both virgins when we married because of our faith, which my ex has since abandoned. We’re divorced now, and I’ve got a young child. I’ve always wanted marriage and a family, and this was heartbreaking for me. For the past year I’ve been dating a really great girl who loves me (and vice versa), who adores my son, and who also wants to have a family. She told me from the beginning that she wasn’t a virgin, but that now she is taking her faith seriously and she won’t be having sex before she gets married. That works for me, because I take my faith seriously as well. We do have a very active physical relationship, and through the course of this I’ve seen that she had never orgasmed before me, and was otherwise pretty inexperienced.
    Situation: So I assumed that she *is* pretty inexperienced, but I hadn’t asked exactly how many men she had slept with until recently… and the number is eight. I had expected one to three, and this number has kinda thrown me for a loop. Is this silly? When I asked her about it, she started sweating and got very nervous and seemed ashamed/scared. She said that it was bad and she wasn’t proud of her history. I didn’t interrogate her further or dig into her other than to ask if she had been tested for STDs and she said that she has been tested at her doc and doesn’t have anything.
    Questions: I feel like I’m not exactly top-grade marriage material because of my divorce and my child. I feel very fortunate and blessed to have found someone who is so much fun, easy going, pleasant, non-demanding, generous, and who enjoys kids in general and my son specifically. She’s also attractive and fit, which is a nice bonus! This post and the discussion thread has given me doubts though…. How do I know if I’m so eager to get married that I’m walking into a trap? How can I know if she’s a good risk or not? Sigh.

    [D: Would you mind if I did a post on this and included my thoughts there? This would have the added benefit of allowing additional input from the commenters and will make the discussion more readily available to another man who might have a similar question. The downside is some of the commenters are of the opinion that no man should ever marry, etc, so you will get some very negative comments as well (which you may get here anyway). You will need to sort through the different views and decide what makes sense for yourself, but I think that is ideal. If you aren't comfortable with me doing a post on this, I'll share my thoughts in the comments below.]

  90. Anonymous says:

    Sure, do a post, I’m eager for advice. I’ve read enough of your blog to know that many people will think I’m stupid. I appreciate the perspectives of your readers, even though I don’t share them all and may not take any of your or their advice. I feel like you and your folks will have a worst-case analysis for me which will help with my risk assessment. Also feel free to ask me clarifying questions if it will help your post.

  91. Anonymous says:

    By the way, if it’s relevant, she says she stopped having sex five years ago because of a return to her faith, which was long before she met me. She has also broken up with boyfriends who wouldn’t take “no” for an answer.

  92. spoonman says:

    Did you ever put this post up, Dalrock? I have just landed in a similar situation, but would prefer to pick up the conversation in a newer thread.

  93. Pingback: Marriage lite: mistaking “No sex before monogamy” for a moral statement | Dalrock

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  96. Grass Is Greener says:

    People who suggest looking for foreign women, or women of other races, are displaying “the grass is greener on the other side” thinking. You are naive about a mysterious culture you aren’t familiar with. Once you get into another culture, you’ll find it’s not what you thought. Sluts are EVERYWHERE. Don’t believe the foreign online dating ads. They use incredibly fake photos, making their models look more White, for a start. Then, they write up articles bashing White American women, to get you to hand over your money to foreign women. To find out more of what you could be getting, please prepare first. A great site is http://www.stickmanbangkok.com/reader5.html. There are great American women. You have to keep looking.

  97. Warlock says:

    Grass is Greener:
    You are right, sluts are everywhere. But I would rather marry a Filipina slut, than some holier-than-thou christian girl. BTW, I have been with both. The Filipina slut knows that she is damaged goods and tries to do everything possible to make up for it. The American girl just thinks she is a goddess and expects to be pampered without working for it.
    There is a problem though and it is mainly with the American men, not those foreign ladies. They chat with them, send them money, and for some reason beyond me, THEY NEVER GO.
    As for Stickman’s site, it is fun to read with a lot of crazy stories and some random useful information, but I have always felt that he is a hard core cynic.

  98. patriot9878 says:

    A woman has to show you she cares about you. If you treat her decent and buy her stuff and give her sex it will last a few months, but if she treats you wrong in anyway. Maybe she flirts and talks with other boyfriends. If she does anything that make you look stupid , then drop her like a hot rock. ALso, if she has other children and she treats them like shit get rid of that skank. Nice women are out there, but you must make yourself available. You must go where nice women are. Many nice women are at the beach. But if you have a hard time carrying on a conversation, then you might find someone who could help you.

  99. Pingback: The Types of Women in Church – A Primer | The Reinvention of Man

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