Overcivilized men, uncivilized women.

This post is the second part to two very different previous posts.  A while back I wrote the post Calibrating Attraction by Controlling the Venue.  That post met with general agreement, but left many readers understandably frustrated that while it was obviously good advice it also made it difficult to meet a large number of men.  As the second part of that series, this post could also be titled Calibrating Attraction by Controlling Yourself.

I wrote another post prior to the Venue one titled Gun Control and Wimpy Betas.  In that post I showed how we have over-civilized men, taking away too much of their wildness and making them too weak to be attractive.  But there is a flip side to that as well.  While we have been over-civilizing men we have also been un-civilizing women.

And by “we” I mean the feminists driving our culture.

Feminism despises any controls placed on women.  It rails against any effort to teach women impulse control, manners, or general self control.  All of this is seen as some evil plot by the patriarchy to keep women down and prevent them from exercising their power.  But the reality is that someone will control you.  If it isn’t yourself, it will be someone else.  And that someone else seldom will have your best interests at heart unless you are a child and they are your parents.  I’m assuming that if you are reading this you are no longer a child.

So what does self control have to do with calibrating attraction?  Specifically, how can it help a woman adjust her tastes in men away from players and bad boys towards good guy (greater) betas?

I’ll start with impulse control.  Men need to have a great deal of it in order to succeed in our organized society.  Most guys won’t go very far punching out people who make them angry, being a wise ass at the wrong moment, or tossing their statistics book onto the bonfire while downing a beer bong when they should be studying for their final.  The guys who are going to become tomorrow’s engineers, doctors, businessmen, etc need a strong dose of impulse control even in their late teens and early twenties.

Just like most employers you presumably also want a guy who is reliable, generally on time, won’t quit his job because he is bored or dislikes his boss, and won’t end up addicted and/or in prison.  In addition I’m assuming you want a man who won’t cheat on you at every opportunity.  All of these things require a good dose of impulse control.

The thing about impulse control though is that if you are around someone who has more of it than you do they tend to seem quite stuffy, and downright boring.  They can also appear weak and timid.  Someone who has less impulse control than you can be either extremely frustrating or exciting, depending on the context.

So if you are like so many current young women who have grown up seeing a lack of impulse control as making you empowered, interesting and exciting, you can see where this might create  a problem.  Nice guys who are in control of themselves are going to seem boring and timid to you, which is the ultimate tingle killer.  If you are pretty guys will still be attracted to you, but you will be extremely frustrating to them as you flit around like an over stimulated puppy.  Beta guys without options will likely overlook the frustrating part, but you won’t want them anyway.  Alpha and greater beta guys will see you as good for a pump and dump, but not want to waste their energy on establishing anything longer term with you because you are a pain in the ass.  Plus they know they can’t trust you due to your lack of impulse control.

The brutal irony of the low impulse control woman is she needs an alpha to tame her, but she isn’t worth the alpha’s trouble beyond a pump and dump.  Luckily for them it also means a quick lay is all but guaranteed.

How can you know if you lack impulse control?  If you have ever said any of the following, it is a dead giveaway that you lack impulse control:

  • I’m looking for a man who can keep up with me.
  • There was music playing, so of course I started dancing.
  • I’m not looking for anything serious now.  I just want to have fun.
  • That’s what credit cards are for.
  • Well behaved women seldom make history.

I’m sure the readers can come up with more great examples.

Manners is another area of self control which will help you both be more attractive to the alphas and greater betas and more likely to be attracted to good guys.  Hope provided an excellent example in her recent comment on Gaming your wife:

We just recently quit a group in which another married couple were treating [her husband] with flagrant disrespect, silencing him and generally trying to make themselves out to be “on top.” The wife of that couple yells at and abuses others as well. It was a clear demonstration to me, “Don’t be like that.”

I know what you are thinking.  Wait, he didn’t jump up like a monkey and bash the other man’s head in with a rock and then rape his woman?  He just left the group?  And she still wanted him after that display of weakness?

Strange, isn’t it?  That is the power of manners.  Hope has them, and they helped her see her husband’s measured response in the right context.  His choice to simply leave the group was a choice of strength, not weakness.  Fortunately for Hope she has the sense of manners to accurately perceive that.

Prior to feminism our society had rules to help keep both women and men in check.  These rules were devised over generations and tuned to the areas each sex needed to restrain.  Today however many women no longer feel required to keep decorum.  Not only are they not held to previous standards of manners, but this has spilled over to include special leeway when it comes to breaking the law.  Feminists have set out to ensure that there are no (or very few) taboos when it comes to women, and they have been wildly successful here.  As Lady Raine said on the Fresh Meat on Campus post at Hooking Up Smart:

Take a breath, ladies.  It’s been OUR world for awhile and we can live however we want to with no repercussions.

Betas are men who among other things tend to follow the rules. If you have ever been a polite rule follower in the company of a group of rude irresponsible people (from your perspective), you have a taste of how most betas must feel in the company of many modern women.  The stereotype of betas all being timid and unwilling to take risks is unfair.  Bill Gates wasn’t afraid to take risks, and many would argue that he hasn’t been afraid to break the rules.  But I would wager he has generally controlled his own behavior in social settings.  Guys like this look weak when in the company of men and women who don’t care about the rules.

The current environment is a rather unique one.  The social order is good enough that women feel very safe, but on many levels society is in chaos.  One fellow blogger who recognizes this is Grerp.  Her blog The Lost Art of Self Preservation (for women) starts with the following:

If you were born female in the mid-1960’s or later, you were probably fed all sorts of erroneous information about how life works, what women deserve, what men want, and what the future will be like. Here’s some actually useful advice to help you survive in this increasingly chaotic post-Sexual Revolution world.

She is trying to protect women.  So what does her site focus on?  Manners and self control.  Feminists hate her site even more than they hate mine.  She breaks all of the rules by advising young women to:

Repeat after me:

I don’t get to have any fun!

See also: Raising Feral Females.

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113 Responses to Overcivilized men, uncivilized women.

  1. Höllenhund says:

    Great food for thought, Dalrock. The common narrative among PUAs is that we’re in the current mess due to men being de-masculinized, but that’s clearly just half of the story.

  2. There’s no such thing as an “overcivilized” man. Men will reassert themselves as soon as the government isn’t pointing guns at their heads. Women are simply uncivilized full stop and a constant threat to civilization. We need more radical solutions for dealing with uncivilized (in other words most) women. The solution could involve drugs, genetic engineering, exile to a continent with only hunter-gatherer technology or a virtual reality of simulation of that (if you’re not willing to be civilized then you don’t deserve the benefits of civilization). Trying to convince women to be well mannered and practice self control even if done by other women is pissing into the wind.

  3. jack says:

    Brilliant post, I’ve never seen it put this way before.

    This also explains the carousel riders and the wanna-be carousel riders. Searching for thrills, I suppose. Too bad they are expending an irreplaceable thing – their innocence and reputation.

  4. JAG says:

    Ain’t life fun!??

    Relationships are such interesting bits of our human existence, and the push and pull of social taboos and expectations just adds to the already messy confusion.

    I’ve been doing a lot of thinking over the past 10 years about what a quality relationship entails. I operate under the consensus that unhealthy attracts unhealthy, and healthy attracts healthy, so the more healthy I get myself, the healthier a man I will be able to attract.

    It’s an interesting inner journey, with most of my support and learning coming from online sources.

    My parents are approaching their 50th anniversary and had a completely different life at my age, so we can’t easily relate to each other, and it’s easier to just not discuss it. My best friend’s husband looks to her as a replacement “Mommy” and thinks that’s perfectly fine. My brother/flatmate was so hurt by his marriage he only interacts with family females now and he’s almost completely unable to state his needs directly, but at least he doesn’t do covert contracts and victim pukes anymore. His best friend is so NG it’s almost comical.

    So glad that there’s a large online community of people who are talking about the next phase of healthy human relations! It gives me hope and feeds me energy to keep moving forward myself, one step at a time.

    JAG
    My blog of ramblings ’bout relationships, attraction, and healthy social interaction.

  5. David Foster says:

    I suspect that even in tribal societies of long ago, impulse control was very important for acquiring leadership positions. The successful warrior needed to overcome his wired-in impulse of *fear*. The successful hunter needed patience to track or wait for game for long periods of time.

    “The thing about impulse control though is that if you are around someone who has more of it than you do they tend to seem quite stuffy, and downright boring”…an interesting insight, which feels correct, and suggests that low impulse control breeds even lower impulse control, as people strive not to be boring to their friends or romantic prospects.

  6. Anonymous Reader says:

    Dalrock:
    The current environment is a rather unique one. The social order is good enough that women feel very safe, but on many levels society is in chaos.

    This could well be merely a transitional phase. As more and more children are born to single women, the ability of men to civilize children can only wane. We already have an example of what that looks like, in the US in inner city slums where every boy and young man is taught that Alpha means reacting to any “diss” with lethal violence, and women are less and less safe. It also becomes more and more difficult to get anything done, because more and more resources have to be poured into security efforts.

    Theodore Roosevelt said it, and he wasn’t the first: people will be controlled. Either they will control themselves, or they will be controlled.

    By making poor impulse control into a positive good, feminism has massively undermined the social structures required for feminism to even exist. If the cultural decay continues on the trendline, long before 2050 most women will be unable to go more than a few blocks from their home without some sort of escort, and life will be much less pleasant for all of us. I’m sure even then the aged 1970’s feminist crones will continue to insist that they didn’t intend for it to turn out this way, that all they wanted was for the old, tired, patriarchal oppression to be taken away. They’ll look real cute in burkhas…

  7. by_the_sword says:

    I think Grerp’s advice works for men too. Of course you need to add “Don’t be a pussy.”

  8. CAB says:

    Want some more giveaway quotes like the ones above? I often see these, or variants thereof, on Facebook profiles:

    “Never regret anything, because at some point, it was exactly what you wanted.”

    “I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best.”

  9. Anonymous Reader says:

    Something else about the decline of impulse control: it leads women to crave men who also have little or not impulse control, because they are more exciting than boring good providers. Some justify this insanity by the notion of “blowing off steam”, but that 19th century model of human behavior is simply wrong. We become what we are plus what we do. If a woman spends years flitting from one thug to another, she become habituated to dealing with thugs and thus has no clue how to relate to a decent, normal man. She has become habituated to a certain level of drama in her life, and all but certainly if it is not present she’ll believe “something is missing”. She has damaged her own psyche enough that she is no longer fit to be a mother, or a life partner.

    The other day in a store I saw a couple walking. The woman was an inch or so taller than the man. She was clearly upper 30’s, he was upper 20’s to early 30’s. She was giggling and fawning. He had a shaved head, earrings, and tattoos including a couple of gang-related tats. Maybe I am wrong, but I saw an aging, empowered grrl hanging all over her latest bad boy, who will surely discard her in 5 years or less. Sad for her, but when I see something like that I always wonder what she looked and sounded like a decade earlier. I’m thinking “poor impulse control” and probably drug use, or a lot of drinking.

  10. Hope says:

    This is a great post about impulse control, and it is applicable to so many areas of life. When people speak of “character,” this is what I think of. Impulse control (and the necessary willpower to exercise it) applies to all of the items on grerp’s list, like not over-eating, not over-spending, not abusing drugs or alcohol, not being rude, and so on.

    My husband and I also have an unwritten rule of “no drama.” There were other couples in that group we liked, but this disruptive couple was more established and had more seniority, and we decided to just leave instead of cause drama. In our marriage, we also minimize any drama, and we never yell or act like drama queens with each other.

    I can see how some people might say this is “boring,” but in my opinion it is far better to be stable than to be unstable, to be responsible than to be irresponsible, and to be emotionally controlled than emotionally out of control. On the flip side, the “exciting alphas” strike me as immature and a turn-off, and I feel too much contempt for them to be attracted.

  11. Specifically, how can it help a woman adjust her tastes in men away from players and bad boys towards good guy (greater) betas?

    As a non-alpha, I’d actually rather have civilization collapse than have women be “geared” toward betas. It’s disingenious to force these women on men that don’t induce any attraction within them. It merely reinforces the concept that beta males are merely for resource extraction by females, and we as a society must cease this type of rhetoric. Mind you, I suspect that unlike most here, I don’t see much a problem if women ride the alpha carousel an stay childless. Yes, they’ll complain about being lonely, but I think that’s an acceptable outcome given that the alternative is to marry somebody that ultimately, she would end up divorcing or driving crazy with shit tests. So, yes, maybe we can shame single mothers as a society, but I’m not going to shame the carousel riders. I’d much rather shame the golddiggers that marry beta males.

  12. J says:

    Hi D,

    As the INTP Queen of Impulse Control, I can’t argue with any of the advice that you give, but I have a problem with the picture that you draw of overcivilized men and undercivilized women as being an accurate sample of what the world really looks like. Outside of the manosphere where lonely STEM-types are over-represented, there is no shortage of undercivilized men who lack impulse control. Jails and nuthouses are full of them–always have been. The downside of feminism is that, in giving women freedom to actualize themselves rather than hiding behind a false veneer of girlyness, it removed some of the artificial constraints on the least civilized of women who could then join their alpha thug brothers in incivility. Both types of the great unwashed have always been there; the women just ceased being cheerleaders for their thug boyfriends and started joining in the “fun” on their own initiative. Feminism hasn’t made civilized women uncivilized. It’s just allowed the uncivilized to be more open about it.

  13. Default User says:

    @Dalrock
    A good post.

    I actually believe impulse control, that more measured response is more manly.

    @David Alexander
    I think the point is that women could become sexually attracted to more stable men. It would not be a case of forcing them. It is only our safe (made safe by men) world that women can indulge their thrill seeking behavior “without repercussions.”

  14. Anonymous Reader says:

    J
    Feminism hasn’t made civilized women uncivilized.

    Really? So all those “Girls Gone Wild” tapes aren’t real? They are faked? All the sorority women who go to frat parties that are basically booty calls with booze aren’t really from upper middle class households? Are you serious?

    Have you actually spent time around any women aged 20-25 in the last ten years?

  15. Anonymous Reader says:

    J
    Outside of the manosphere where lonely STEM-types are over-represented, there is no shortage of undercivilized men who lack impulse control. Jails and nuthouses are full of them–always have been.

    No one here is arguing that. The distribution of the IQ curve is not a secret. It is typical of a feminist to only notice the left hand tail of the IQ and impulse control curve when it is useful in an argument, but that is for later.

    What is being pointed out is the fact that you feminists have taught young women for 30+ years that self control is repression and oppression, and now we are reaping the harvest of that: entitlement princesses who honestly believe that they are special snowflakes that deserve a good paying job, deserve to just have fun and later on deserve a dutiful and good husband, when they get around to deciding to settle for him. That is what you would rather not talk about.

    The fact that 90% of the homeless are men isn’t something you’d want to talk about in any context of Affirmative Action, I am certain.

  16. Anonymous Reader says:

    Default User
    I actually believe impulse control, that more measured response is more manly.

    That depends on the culture. Cultures that prize self control tend to agree with you, and they tend to be better places to live for the average person; think of Switzerland as an example. Cultures that prize expansive expression, on the other hand, have often produced men that are quite good at individual combat. The Vikings come to mind. Note that the Vikings were good traders, and even better raiders, but they were not always all that good at maintaining what others had built…

  17. Days of Broken Arrows says:

    Really great post. Very perceptive and defines a lot of what (I assume) a lot of us have been thinking but never fully focused in our minds.

    Those quotes like “looking for a man to keep up with me” are priceless. I’ve actually seen these and wondered why exactly women would feel the need to advertise they were hard to “keep up with?”

  18. grerp says:

    I appreciate the linkage, Dalrock. Thank you again.

    So much of good behavior can be summed up in a few words: humility, kindness, modesty, self-control, hard work, patience. We have destroyed most of the boundaries that historically kept women in check, ofttimes for their own good, and society is worse for it. I feel pessimistic about the future. However, I just started reading The Fourth Turning by William Strauss (and someone else, can’t think of it). It’s about how societal patterns of strengthening and weakening community ties repeat in patterns, and the author posits that we are just now entering another fourth turning. Traditionally this is a time of crisis and bloodshed, but the aftermath produces a tightening of social controls. I’m not very far in, but it’s an interesting hypothesis. I suppose we will see if he is right in time.

  19. I think the point is that women could become sexually attracted to more stable men.

    Ultimately, I think it’s impossible for most women, and the equivalent is forcing men to like fat women. Yes, fat women may have some platonic qualities, but there just isn’t the sex appeal to sustain a relationship. The same is true for beta males as they simply cannot induce the tingles needed to keep women satisfied. Women chase alpha males in high school, they do it in college, and they do it as adults. The women who settle for beta males* without going on the carousel are settling because they know they can’t even meet the requirements to ride. It’s an insult to the men that they partner with in my opinion as they’re simply using them and leading these men on to believe that they’re loved.

    *Or they’re mentally ill or on drugs.

    It is only our safe (made safe by men) world that women can indulge their thrill seeking behavior “without repercussions.”

    And it is our duty to continue to keep this world safe not just for women, but for ourselves and the greater good of society. Walking around the streets with an AK-47 isn’t a benefit for males either.

  20. Brendan says:

    The women who settle for beta males* without going on the carousel are settling because they know they can’t even meet the requirements to ride. It’s an insult to the men that they partner with in my opinion as they’re simply using them and leading these men on to believe that they’re loved.

    Dave —

    This is where I think you go astray in your thinking.

    Many people would prefer to be very high SMV, very rich, very powerful, and so on, if they could “pick” up front (yes, sure people are going to respond that “oh no, not me, blah blah … mostly because they had bad experiences with such people, which is not what I am talking about, because I say “up front”, i.e., without prior experience and knowledge).

    But most people learn what their own “place” is — in sexual, financial, physical, intellectual, social and other terms. Coming to terms with that place is a sign of maturity for men and women alike. Once a man or a woman truly comes to terms with that and accepts it, that opens the door to love with people who are similarly situated. In other words, people tend to mature by growing out of their need for the ideal which dominates their youth, and instead accept their place and find someone suitable who “matches” that.

    What is getting in the way of this are the following factors:

    (1) Women having sexual access to high SMV men in our “laissez-faire SMP” (the only fricking market most leftie feminists want to remain unregulated, in a very telling turnabout), which leads to them delaying or even never reaching the maturity level where they clearly discern their own “relationship value” … which sometimes never happens now; and

    (2) Men having access to superhot women in porn for masturbation purposes 24/7, and in such varieties and types as only King Solomon himself could imagine … this makes men much less interested in “settling” for a woman who is anything less than a porn hottie when they are young, which has the same impact of delaying the interest in establishing a more realistic self-image and a more realistic approach to mating.

    In different ways men and women are engaged in their own, solipsistic journeys away from the kinds of counterparts that are their real matches. That is the reality of what is happening in the SMV outside the dual degree/dual professional set, where finding mates of the same economic/educational level is still a core value — something which is driving high marriage rates and, due to the economic situation most of these couples are in, relatively low divorce rates. For everyone else, though, the picture is messed up and has no real way of being fixed in the near future.

    The swirl in the toilet bowl is well underway. The problem we face, in politics as well as in these cultural issues, is that the working class and lower middle class has fallen very far behind the educated class, in virtually every way, other than numerically. This means that there is a huge polarity between many of the denizens of these kinds of blogs, on the one hand, and the average folk who are white working class/lower middle class folks. What happened a couple of weeks ago politically exposed the gaping maw of this cultural gap for all to see who have eyes capable of seeing it. This chasm will define our politics and culture until we have ways to fix it, and force-feeding elite professional egatlitarianism/feminism on the working and lower middle classes is failing spectacularly, just to highlight one of many areas of failed “anointed progressive” policy/cultural ideas.

  21. Will S. says:

    Great post, but a quibble about the title: as Anthony Esolen said, “Women domesticate men. Men civilize men.” (Esolen explains the distinction, and I think he hits the mark.)

  22. Ultimately, I think it’s impossible for most women

    David, it’s impossible for most women absent radical intervention such as genetic engineering or drugs.

  23. Anonymous Reader says:

    Brendan:
    The swirl in the toilet bowl is well underway. The problem we face, in politics as well as in these cultural issues, is that the working class and lower middle class has fallen very far behind the educated class, in virtually every way, other than numerically. This means that there is a huge polarity between many of the denizens of these kinds of blogs, on the one hand, and the average folk who are white working class/lower middle class folks.

    Anecdote: a friend of mine is having work done on his house. Three workmen and one foreman/contractor. A week back, the youngest workman shows up, has to go to court. Seems he was driving on a suspended license. The license was suspended because he is behind on child support payments. He’s behind on child support payments because he works construction and work has been slow for the last year. Not obvious if he ever married or not.

    The oldest workman had to go home to deal with a crisis involving his family. It appears he and his wife may be splitting up. The heating/air conditioning guy showed up for a while, and was distracted because his soon to be ex wife has gotten a job working for city government 50 miles away and is going to take their child, making it all but impossible for him to see the child except on alternate weekends.

    This is an anecdotal sample of the world of semi skilled and skilled tradesmen. They have to interrupt their work, getting the job done slower, because the modern world has other priorities.

    What happened a couple of weeks ago politically exposed the gaping maw of this cultural gap for all to see who have eyes capable of seeing it. This chasm will define our politics and culture until we have ways to fix it, and force-feeding elite professional egatlitarianism/feminism on the working and lower middle classes is failing spectacularly, just to highlight one of many areas of failed “anointed progressive” policy/cultural ideas.

    What happened a couple of weeks ago politically exposed the gaping maw of this cultural gap for all to see who have eyes capable of seeing it.

    Could you clue me in on what that is, please?

    This chasm will define our politics and culture until we have ways to fix it, and force-feeding elite professional egatlitarianism/feminism on the working and lower middle classes is failing spectacularly, just to highlight one of many areas of failed “anointed progressive” policy/cultural ideas.

    Exactly. I wager that the wife of a 35 year old carpenter is not really going to go out and snare a better man, especially when she has children. Ditto for the city employee who is moving a couple of towns over. And so forth. The whole idea of no-fault divorce was essentially to give the upper class a way to practice serial polygamy, it wasn’t supposed to utterly demolish marriage for working people. But it has. And the effects are still rippling out.

  24. This is where I think you go astray in your thinking.

    I think it’s entirely possible to conclude one’s rank in terms of the factors that you detail and be entirely realistic while stating that they don’t like the options that are available. In other words, you can accept your rank, but you don’t have to degrade yourself by associating with the members of the opposite sex that are available to you. For females, I’d argue that playing the carousel is certain a much more enticing option than being loved by a beta, and for males, porn is certainly much better than the women that are available. While you may find those options as a depressing factor that prohibits matching, I think it’s an excellent idea and a step forward for humanity. You may not see it this way, but the carousel and pornography (and legal prostitution) are the methods of providing for a welfare state under free-market sexuality. As I stated before, I don’t see what’s wrong with single women and single men using alternative means of securing some piece of high end sexuality. Why should they be forced to have unfulfilling and poor quality sex with each other in some vain attempt to pair-bond?

    Even in a personal context, given my buying power, is it excusable for somebody like myself to simply opt-out, use porn, and not date while scavenging for a few platonic relationships? Or should I for the good of society go marry myself off to the women of my race and class.

    force-feeding elite professional egatlitarianism/feminism on the working and lower middle classes is failing spectacularly

    I think we’re slowing running into the limits of meritocracy, and as a society, we’re at the point where the caste system will slowly begin to manifest since we’re removed the original barriers that prevented those who weren’t members of the elite to maximize their skills and talents. I suspect that we may revert to some historical norms with few examples of class transcendency, and I wonder what this will mean for a country where the dream is to become a part of the vague middle class, something which is slowly turning into a small part of the population with highly specialized degrees with highly specialized careers. I’m nearly tempted to argue that real socialism may become a part of the American political scene within the next 50 years, especially if free-market solutions don’t produce acceptable results.

  25. Octavia says:

    Some aspects of society have changed, in some ways for the worse. On the other hand, one could say that many problems have existed for hundreds of years. However they were not tracked in the same fashion. Nor were large portions of a population aware of these matters; modes of communicating were not as fast as they are now.

    I cannot strictly blame the negative changes in a society on any one movement, especially without ever considering the positive aspects. Otherwise, it’s intellectually dishonest. It’s also a way for some people to side-step dealing with intersectionality. It’s highly unlikely that two people are going to experience a movement in the same way. Furthermore, no one has to exercise the options created by any movement. Options aren’t obligations.

    Each society is too complex to blame or praise one movement even for, in this case, the lack of impulse control. Perhaps the real lack of impulse control comes from not understanding that others doing actions A, B or C doesn’t prevent you from choosing D. That’s not about the problems with feminism. That’s about taking the easy way out and then finding an excuse for doing so. That kind of thinking existed long before feminism.

    But hey, some might want to return to the good ole days—whatever those were because not everyone will remember things the same way.

    [D: We both used a lot of words, but I actually made a point.]

  26. P.T. Barnum says:

    Bill Gates wasn’t afraid to take risks, and many would argue that he hasn’t been afraid to break the rules. But I would wager he has generally controlled his own behavior in social settings. Guys like this look weak when in the company of men and women who don’t care about the rules.

    Was that the risk of becoming the sole supplier of operating systems for IBM, and receive billions of dollars to do so? IBM hired him when he didn’t even have much of a company, or product, or anything.

    It then funneled billions of dollars into Microsoft.

    Oh who, who could have succeeded with billions of dollars and one of the largest computer companies in the world making you it’s sole supplier!

    Only a genius, a demi-god like Bill Gates!

    Who here thinks they aren’t a sucker?

    [D: If it makes you feel any better I write this blog using linux. I'm not a fan of Bill's marketing practices.]

  27. P.T. Barnum says:

    (2) Men having access to superhot women in porn for masturbation purposes 24/7, and in such varieties and types as only King Solomon himself could imagine … this makes men much less interested in “settling” for a woman who is anything less than a porn hottie when they are young, which has the same impact of delaying the interest in establishing a more realistic self-image and a more realistic approach to mating.

    Well, if you can get the words out of your mouth, I’m buying them!

    Let’s state what you have said clearly, and truthfully. I know, it burnsszz us, Master, it burnssszzz us. We hates it.

    You have stated that a real, live, flesh and blood woman, with touch, taste, sound, and smell can’t compete against a prettier PHOTOGRAPH. Or World of Warcraft. That a PHOTOGRAPH or World of Warcraft is more attractive to men than they are.

    Well. That is a very interesting thing to say. Would you care to explain why that would be the case, cause it does seem kinda odd.

  28. P.T. Barnum says:

    True impulse control is attractive enough to a large set of women. Enough so that those with true impulse control don’t need to suppress the impulse to complain.

    What you call impulse control is Obedience To Authority, eh? Giving do consideration for whoever has been raised up by the Lords and Masters as an Authority Figure.

    After all, the Teacher has been Appointed. And dumb, hateful, or crazy, she is to be obeyed, right? Anything less is poor impulse control.

    Let’s give this it’s proper name. Obedience To Authority. How do you spell that? B-E-T-A

    People with true impulse control, or deeply repressed emotions, and they did it by themselves, not out of fear of Authority, the Spock-like characters, are the targets of a very large sub-set of female soft porn writing.

    Females can tell the difference. They pull their tricks, and the man isn’t phased. May appear to not even notice. And that provokes a girl, yes it does. And the sight of one provoked girl provokes the rest. It’s a snowballing effect.

  29. Zammo says:

    “The whole idea of no-fault divorce was essentially to give the upper class a way to practice serial polygamy, it wasn’t supposed to utterly demolish marriage for working people. ”

    Ah, the laws of unintended consequences.

  30. Lady Raine says:

    Please don’t use my comment out of context to illustrate women/people lacking self control.

    My point was that women have all the options in the world regarding choosing to have a career and have a single life……or choosing to marry and have a family…..or choosing to do both (ie: work and have a family/husband).

    But none of those things entail “lacking morals, lacking hard work ethics, or lacking self’ control”. I believe strongly that women are just as disciplined as men and SHOULD expect to be as disciplined as men (meaning men that are equally disciplined….not just the common “male”).

    I don’t think women and girls should run around with high expectations while contributing nothing to this world.

    In my personal opinion: ALL women should have their own home, their own savings, their own career/job (whatever that might be) FIRST and then decide whether they want marriage and kids. A woman who chooses to have kids without a husband should be NO issue to anyone else unless she’s doing so on someone else’s dime or doing so in a manipulative and dishonest way.

    A woman CAN do “whatever she wants” in this world.

    But you missed the point entirely. A woman still has to be smart, honest, hard-working, and value the man/men in her life and treat them the way she wants to be treated. That means no cheating, no lying, no bullshit.

    Same with a career. You want a high-powered career? Awesome. Bust your ass to get it and take no prisoners. But don’t use nonsense politics to get there. But she should also not give a fuck what other men and women think of her choices.

    As for specifically a relationship: A woman needs to be attractive (meaning well groomed, stylish, and present herself well) and act like she CARES about how she presents herself to the world/men. She should also be honest and unashamed of her career, her intelligence, and even her past.

    A woman who hasn’t spent a lifetime cheating, gold digging, manipulating, lying, and abusing men has every right to “live how she wants to live” as long as she is giving what she takes.

    That is the meaning of my statement so next time please at least make an assumption that is based on the real meaning as opposed to using it to illustrate some sort of hedonism that I don’t agree with nor have I ever supported.

  31. Mormon Man says:

    Excellent post Dalrock. This is a new way of looking at things I’ve never thought of before.

  32. dalrock says:

    Lady Raine,

    I didn’t take your quote out of context. Honestly I didn’t need to even use a quote. I could have simply mentioned your name.

    You write prolifically about how you don’t follow the rules when it comes to court orders, paying your rent, etc. You are the poster child for my point.

    Edit: It looks like your specific comments on not following rules that I was thinking of have been deleted from grerp’s site. Still, I linked to your full comment and that by itself still makes my point. You don’t feel compelled to live by older rules of behavior and decorum.

  33. Badger Nation says:

    “A woman who hasn’t spent a lifetime cheating, gold digging, manipulating, lying, and abusing men has every right to “live how she wants to live” as long as she is giving what she takes.”

    Can’t say I disagree with this at all, nor do I when the gender is reversed (the old “child-man” shaming.) If you provide for yourself and obey the law you can live your life as you please.

  34. Steffen says:

    “People with true impulse control, or deeply repressed emotions, and they did it by themselves, not out of fear of Authority, the Spock-like characters, are the targets of a very large sub-set of female soft porn writing.”

    That mindset takes a long time to grow to maturity, and it takes even longer for INTJ types such as myself to find a way to put it to good use with the opposite sex once it has been achieved.

    I do have to agree with the poster who stated that we will either control ourselves or be controlled by others, and I do not regret learning control.

  35. grerp says:

    Back in the summer I did delete some comments on a few posts Lady Raine participated in. They were highly abusive, contained ideas I did not want to help promulgate in any way, and upsetting to my mother, so I deleted those and any responses, as the responses made no sense without the original comments. I haven’t deleted any since, but then I wouldn’t have to since I’ve had comment moderation on since that time.

  36. Brendan says:

    What happened a couple of weeks ago politically exposed the gaping maw of this cultural gap for all to see who have eyes capable of seeing it.

    Could you clue me in on what that is, please?

    I was referring to the election, of course. I think what it revealed, among other things, is the relatively large cultural/worldview gap between the majority of the white working class and lower middle class (particularly, but not exclusively, in “flyover country”), on the one hand, and the culture/worldview of people living on the coasts. To a large degree this is also based on social class, as the meritocratic middle and upper middle tend to gravitate to coastal and other large cities. There has been a hardening of worldviews between these two coexisting cultures. When it comes to marriage, there’s a huge gap in terms of marriage rate and so on between these groups, too — it’s a remarkably different situation, really, from the issues that tend to trouble the under 35 Upper West Side set.

    You have stated that a real, live, flesh and blood woman, with touch, taste, sound, and smell can’t compete against a prettier PHOTOGRAPH. Or World of Warcraft. That a PHOTOGRAPH or World of Warcraft is more attractive to men than they are.

    Well. That is a very interesting thing to say. Would you care to explain why that would be the case, cause it does seem kinda odd.

    No, I didn’t say “can’t compete”. What I said was that there is a growing number of men who are, to one degree or other, withdrawing from the mating game due to the availability of internet porn/internet hookers. It’s impacting behavior for these men. Dave Alex is one example of that, and he isn’t the only one. And even for men who don’t “opt out” in favor of porn/hookers, the impact porn has on their expectations is dramatic and, most of the time, in a fairly unrealistic direction.

    I think we’re slowing running into the limits of meritocracy, and as a society, we’re at the point where the caste system will slowly begin to manifest since we’re removed the original barriers that prevented those who weren’t members of the elite to maximize their skills and talents. I suspect that we may revert to some historical norms with few examples of class transcendency, and I wonder what this will mean for a country where the dream is to become a part of the vague middle class, something which is slowly turning into a small part of the population with highly specialized degrees with highly specialized careers. I’m nearly tempted to argue that real socialism may become a part of the American political scene within the next 50 years, especially if free-market solutions don’t produce acceptable results.

    What people are learning the hard way is that a “meritocracy” (and ours is a “soft” meritocracy, because it still coexists with a good deal of nepotism) doesn’t really lead to “equality” of outcomes, because not everyone has equal “merit”. And, horror of horrors, those at the top of the meritocratic pile tend to reproduce children who are also at the top of their own generation’s meritocratic pile — fancy that, that intelligent, hard-working people would be able to perpetuate that generationally, rather than each generation starting out “equally”. Trying to address that through taxes or affirmative action is futile, really. Meritocracy, even a soft version, is preferable to outright inherited wealth and privilege, but the end result is still a relatively calcified class system based on ability — calcified because ability is not distributed equally, and actually not even close to equally.

    How this plays down the road will depend on what is done to keep the lower achievers (and therefore lower classes) satisfied with their lot in life. I don’t think that the US is close to embracing socialism, really, not in its true form — the lower classes are still having the idea that they can be self-made and lead satisfying lives, and the white lower and lower middle at least tends to hate the government the most of any socio-economic class in our country. Over the next 50 years, however, this group is going to get somewhat smaller, but not as small as the (still mostly white) elite group — a group which has durable marriages but has non-replacement birth rates for that class. Given the rise of Hispanic America over the next 50 years, anything is possible, really, including the outright disintegration of the US –> perhaps the southern tier being reunified with Mexico at some stage, and the rest of the country dividing more or less politically. It also depends on what the world looks like in 50 years in terms of national sovereignty in general, really. Lots of wildcards, so very hard to predict.

  37. Dream Puppy says:

    Great post. Finally have time to reply.

    @Hope: “My husband and I also have an unwritten rule of “no drama.”

    Me too. Mostly just because my husband does not tolerate drama, and the less of it we get, the less I can tolerate too. When he nags me, I do like to fall to the floor in protest, but that’s all in good fun.

    @W&N “David, it’s impossible for most women absent radical intervention such as genetic engineering or drugs.”

    Genetic engineering = we’d all be falling over from the giant boobs you guys gave us.
    You’re always offering up practical solutions to life’s problems, W&N. I don’t know why I find your anger so charming. Like I mentioned before, most men are inspired to become rich and successful due to the fact that it would bring them better mates. So we do (indirectly) have something to do with the creation of civilization. Stop trying to send us to the moon!!!

    My 2cents. I do agree that women are a bit more uncivilized. The problem is that even uncivilized women want men more “manly” than them. That only leaves thugs and super alphas worthy enough for these power grrrrrls.

    (re: uncivilized- one growing trend I hate is the penchant for women to burp and fart in public more. Or the incessant posting of pics on FB. Especially with that dumbass duck face. Not cute. What is so wrong with trying to be a lady? A MODEST lady. Facebook/blogging/you tube culture is making us all little narcissists.)

  38. Zammo says:

    The expectation of modesty, humility, graciousness, and femininity is simply the patriarchy’s manifestion of the oppression of women.

    What, you didn’t get the memo on that?

  39. Dream Puppy says:

    @Zammo “The expectation of modesty, humility, graciousness, and femininity is simply the patriarchy’s manifestion of the oppression of women.”

    Then I reckon females are being oppressive to men when we expect men to pay for dinner, open doors, support us financially and emotionally, and fight wars.

    In a functional society there are unspoken agreements. Many women are not keeping up their end of the bargain. Some men are and may be punished for it. Eventually both sides will distrust each other. This is disharmonious to society.

    I think modesty and humility are gone. We live in a society were every instance of your life is published in order to 1) boast 2) fish for compliments. Maybe I am projecting, because I recently noticed how stupid it was for me to have pictures of my travels, friends, parties on FB. It is essentially a forum for bragging for some and not what it should be: a place to keep in touch and find friends and email/rsvp for events.

  40. The Deuce says:

    There was music playing, so of course I started dancing.

    Heh heh, I remember exactly where that quote comes from, dalrock, you rascal :-)

    And I think you’ve made a correct assessment.

    [D: I was wondering if anyone would catch that. I'll deny it of course.]

  41. Badger Nation says:

    Deuce/Dalrock,

    Well played. For those outside the loop, the words are a direct quote from Susan Walsh’s reader-advice post “I found a great beta guy but he’s ruining his own game!”

    The reader was giving it the old college try in attempting to date a beta-esque friend but wasn’t having much luck drawing out his leadership. He was depressed due to the state of his life and she was constantly distracted by other men. I and many others were sympathetic to Casey’s plight, but I wasn’t the only one who was annoyed that she didn’t seem to want to admit that her actions – spontaneous dancing, chatting up other guys – were attention-seeking behaviors, and thus a repulsive DLV to a confirmed beta. In the end, I proposed the post be re-titled “I found a great beta guy, but he’s beta.”

  42. Badger Nation says:

    “Especially with that dumbass duck face”

    You mean item #5 here?

    http://vincentignatius.wordpress.com/2010/04/21/girls-need-to-stop-doing-these-things/

  43. MNL says:

    Regarding impulse control, have you read about the “marshmallow experiment”? Great story. Here’s just one link among many: http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2009/05/18/090518fa_fact_lehrer

    In brief, for this research study the experimenter left a small child alone in a room with a marshmallow (or cookie or pretzel) on a table. The researcher told the child that s/he could eat the one marshmallow now or wait until the researcher returned whereupon the child would get to eat TWO marshmallows instead. The researcher then left the room leaving the child alone with his/her thoughts–and the tempting single marshmallow on the table.

    Most all the kids ate the marshmallow/cookie within just a few minutes. But about 30 percent of the kids were able to delay their gratification, hold themselves in check, until the researcher’s return and received their two marshmallows as a reward for their patience.

    Now, fast forward 20+ years…

    Upon re-contact, the kids from the study who were able to wait and who delayed their gratification later showed higher SAT scores, fewer behavioral problems, suffered less stress, and maintained better friendships than the kids who had caved on the marshmallow test. Moreover, as these same kids grew older and moved on into careers and with families of their own, those who showed early self-control and delayed their marshmallow gratification were more successful in their jobs. They were less likely to suffer from obesity or have experienced drug problems. Those who had self-control had more successful lives all around.

    Go read the link–and the others on Google. Fascinating stuff.

  44. Dream Puppy says:

    @Badger

    YES! I have noticed the thickness of the lips is inversely correlated with the abuse of duck face. It’s quite stupid.

  45. Lovekraft says:

    But I am not sure modern women even have that insight into their true situation, and instead are made complacent by money and the appearance of power.

    If we are to advance, society needs to reshift its focus to matters that are truly crucial: lowering birthrates, thirdworld immigration taking over, obscene national debt, foreign ownership etc.

    Unfortunately, with public schools churning out leftists by the truckloads every year, changing the direction of the ship may be an impossible task.

  46. Dream Puppy says:

    @Lovecraft
    Everything needs to change. Looming inflation will just make things worse. When your money is worth less tomorrow than it is today might as well spend. People were not just inherently “better” in the olden days, they just responded to the incentives their society had laid out. Our incentives are to be vain, consumerist, nihilists.

  47. Lovekraft says:

    Lady Raine says: “Same with a career. You want a high-powered career? Awesome. Bust your ass to get it and take no prisoners. But don’t use nonsense politics to get there. But she should also not give a fuck what other men and women think of her choices.”

    When you either take off our shackles in the workplace, or put the same ones on yourselves, we can talk.

  48. Lovekraft says:

    We have in our DNA the insight. Just that right now it is smothered under layers of conscious thinking: religion, politics, gender etc etc.

    I really look at things for the Mens Rights Movement in terms of POSITIONING. I know sadly that things will get worse for white males, as I have personally experienced, or observed how they are seen as the penultimate scapegoat in the West.

    To position ourselves means to have a plan for when the dust settles. What world would be left, and what would we do to rebuild? Save the books, destroy the poison.

  49. P.T. Barnum says:

    No, I didn’t say “can’t compete”. What I said was that there is a growing number of men who are, to one degree or other, withdrawing from the mating game due to the availability of internet porn/internet hookers. It’s impacting behavior for these men. Dave Alex is one example of that, and he isn’t the only one. And even for men who don’t “opt out” in favor of porn/hookers, the impact porn has on their expectations is dramatic and, most of the time, in a fairly unrealistic direction.

    So people are choosing World of Warcraft and photographs over real women, but it’s not because the “deal” those women offer can’t compete with World of Warcraft and photographs.

    Well, then, pray tell, WHY are the men opting for photographs and World of Warcraft over real live women?

    Don’t tell me, it’s cause they are bad! Cause them men are BAAAAADDDDDDD! And if they were GOOD then they would accept the “deal” even if they PREFERRED the photographs and World of Warcraft.

    Well. That’s nice. Does the truth burn? Do you hates it?

    For a growing subset of the population, photographs and World of Warcraft are superior to the “deal”. One solution is to blame the worthless animals for not throwing themselves into the gap, to be blendered, even though they know better. Another solution is to actually care about the worthless animals, and deal with, or help them deal with, the problems with the “deal” ordinary women offer.

    I don’t think I need to tell a good Christian like you what the proper choice is.

    After all, come Judgement Day, you do what to be able to boldly announce that you made sure all worthless animals, who are less than you in every way, behaved according to the appropriate Directives, no matter how much suffering you inflicted on the least of His in the process.

    I can’t wait to see how that will go over!

  50. J says:

    Octavia,
    I see what you were trying to say in your post. Yes, people do need to take personal responsibility for their actions and not blame movements.

  51. J says:

    Anon

    It is typical of a feminist to only notice…

    It is typical of you to continually categorize me a way that I actually haven’t thought of myself in decades, but I suppose that’s easier for you than to actually deal with the CONTENT of my posts.

    The fact that 90% of the homeless are men isn’t something you’d want to talk about in any context of Affirmative Action, I am certain.

    1) I’m not completely sure about the veracity of that statistic; many of the homeless are families. I know because my family volunteers from time to time at a shelter; there are oodles of women and kids.

    2) Significant numbers of homeless people are mentally ill. If 90% of the homeless are male, that would suggest that mental illness is more loikely to strike men.

    3) I have never brought up affirmative action (which BTW I oppose). Feel free to continue creating strawmen (straw women? –maybe you can take one of them out dancing.)

  52. dalrock says:

    @J
    Octavia,
    I see what you were trying to say in your post. Yes, people do need to take personal responsibility for their actions and not blame movements.

    J, you are the last person to hold a woman accountable for her actions. They are all broken little birds to you. But when feminism is singled out for criticism, suddenly you are all about judging women. For the moment at least…

    More importantly, the change we are describing is what Feminism set out to do. Now that they achieved exactly what they said they were going to do, you and Octavia start in with this BS that well maybe the change happened hundreds of years ago.

    Bullshit.

  53. J says:

    Anon

    Really? So all those “Girls Gone Wild” tapes aren’t real? They are faked?

    There’s a big difference between real and typical. What you have done here is the logical equivalent of my saying, “What about all those rapists? Are they faked?” The existence of rapists doesn’t prove that all men are rapists. In fact, most men are not.
    The existence of sluts doesn’t prove that all women are sluts. In fact, most women are not.

    All the sorority women who go to frat parties that are basically booty calls with booze aren’t really from upper middle class households? Are you serious?

    Again, not every college girl is a sorority girl and not every sorority girl is slut. It just seems so if you wish you were making the booty call.

    Have you actually spent time around any women aged 20-25 in the last ten years?

    Actually, I have. I work with adolescents professionally and keep in touch with a lot of my former teens. Most of my friends have college age kids. My own sons are teenagers and have friends with older siblings.

    While I do see some things I’d rather not see, I just don’t see what you describe as typical of young people. In fact, I see a lot young women trying to avoid the hazards of the SMP and get married. I have personally been approached since the beginning of the fall semester by three women between 20-25 who are actively looking for marriageable men. And I do what I can to match kids up.

  54. J says:

    The brutal irony of the low impulse control woman is she needs an alpha to tame her, but she isn’t worth the alpha’s trouble beyond a pump and dump. Luckily for them it also means a quick lay is all but guaranteed.

    No, the brutal irony of the low impulse control woman is that she wants an alpha to control her. Much of the “my man is so alpha” bragging by female posters in the manosphere comes the ladies with the most “colorful” past. It’s the most stable of your female posters who eschew alphas and want women to exercise self-control as opposed to being controlled by a man.

    but she isn’t worth the alpha’s trouble beyond a pump and dump.

    Who in their right mind would want the attentions of an “alpha?” D, do you think that your female posters read about the antics of manosphere’s “alphas” and envy their cheated on wives and girlfriends.

    [D: How many posts have I written hoping to convince women they don't want alphas? I suggest a way they can avoid being attracted to the wrong guys, and you throw them under the bus to protect your investment in your feminist past.]

  55. J says:

    D: That is the power of manners.

    D: We both used a lot of words, but I actually made a point.

    Interesting juxtaposition.

    [D: Feel free to not excuse my lack of tolerance for squid ink.]

  56. J says:

    D: J, you are the last person to hold a woman accountable for her actions. They are all broken little birds to you.

    J: Many are, Dalrock. It’s a hard SMP for girls as well as guys. I hope no one ever hurts your daughter in a way that makes that apparent to you. And don’t make the mistake in thinking that you’ll be able to protect her from every jerk out there.

    D: you and Octavia start in with this BS that well maybe the change happened hundreds of years ago.

    J: Because the sort of caddishness advocated in the manosphere was invented yesterday in retaliation for something Jaclyn Friedman said last week? Now, who’s bullshitting? Or do you want some slick guy calibrating your daughter’s insecurties and taking advantage of them because there’s a post up at CR today that advocates doing just that as a tactic for getting laid? And we all know that men wanting to get laid is a feminist plot.

  57. Brendan says:

    For a growing subset of the population, photographs and World of Warcraft are superior to the “deal”.

    Wow, I seem to have attracted a true hater. In the past few years I have attracted a couple of those, but it doesn’t happen all that often. Nice to meet you.

    My original point stands — namely that the “paradox” mentioned by Dave Alex relates to mismatching issues. The “deal” offered by women is more or less the same regardless of whether the woman is a 5 or an 8. The risks are the same, and frankly probably somewhat higher with higher number women due to the many more options they have and the entitled attitude many of them have. Dave Alex is basically saying: “Because I can’t “get” a girl who is as good looking as a porn star in real life, I prefer to opt out and stick to porn”. The idea being that “unless a woman is as sexy as a porn star, she isn’t worth being in a relationship with”. What’s happened here is that Dave has become distorted in terms of his base case of attraction — distorted “up” such that he can’t really be attracted to women who are “in his league” at all. That’s not a case of rationally “weighing the benefits of the deal being offered” — it’s a case of mismatching one’s expectations/desires with what one brings to the table.

  58. grerp says:

    2) Significant numbers of homeless people are mentally ill. If 90% of the homeless are male, that would suggest that mental illness is more loikely to strike men.

    A significant subset of the mentally ill homeless are veterans who have seen combat, almost all of whom are men.

  59. Höllenhund says:

    “Because the sort of caddishness advocated in the manosphere was invented yesterday in retaliation for something Jaclyn Friedman said last week?”

    J,

    it is not retaliation but adaptation to the results of feminism.

  60. Höllenhund says:

    “And we all know that men wanting to get laid is a feminist plot.”

    J,

    men getting laid in the way Roissy and Mystery do it is the result of unleashing female hypergamy, which was brought about by feminist policies. This new breed of cads couldn’t exist without feminism.

  61. Höllenhund says:

    “Or do you want some slick guy calibrating your daughter’s insecurties and taking advantage of them because there’s a post up at CR today that advocates doing just that as a tactic for getting laid?”

    J,

    young women were traditionally protected from cads by a) indoctrinating them with modesty and chastity from childhood b) men (usually male relatives) mate-guarding them from other men. The reason why these methods were used is that these are the only ones that actually work. But feminism has made both of them largely impossible to use.

  62. The idea being that “unless a woman is as sexy as a porn star, she isn’t worth being in a relationship with”.

    The problem is that sex is an important part of a relationship, so if the sex is lacking, it certainly doesn’t bode well for the structure of the relationship if I’m spending my time masturbating in lieu of having sex with or cheating on her with women that look like porn stars. Regardless, once you get past attractiveness issues, then the value of the relationship in the short to medium term will ultimately depend on one’s thresholds and degree of laziness.

    Dave has become distorted in terms of his base case of attraction

    Even if one takes away the porn, the problem is that in our society, there’s such a wide gap between beautiful and attractive women and average looking women to the point that for some men, their base case of attraction has been distorted from simply walking around the mall or watching some television. How can one counteract such a situation when you’re walking around with a so-so looking partner when there are much better looking options around?

    distorted “up” such that he can’t really be attracted to women who are “in his league” at all.

    But what if a man is in a low ranking position where his options are limited and the women aren’t attractive at all? Otherwise, it leaves one to conclude that without interference, men can easily find ugly women attractive which seems to counteract some of the sentiment in the PUAsphere.

    it’s a case of mismatching one’s expectations/desires with what one brings to the table

    Is it wrong to opt-out and openly admit to it if one can’t secure the type of partner that one want?

  63. J says:

    @grerp

    A significant subset of the mentally ill homeless are veterans who have seen combat, almost all of whom are men.

    There was also a period during the 80s when the government decided that mental patients should be given meds that weren’t going to continue taking without supervision and that they should be turned out into the streets. Very sad.

  64. J says:

    it is not retaliation but adaptation to the results of feminism…..men getting laid in the way Roissy and Mystery do it is the result of unleashing female hypergamy, which was brought about by feminist policies. This new breed of cads couldn’t exist without feminism.

    So you guys love to say, but my dear old alpha thug daddy used to warn me about guys like that back in the day.

  65. J says:

    young women were traditionally protected from cads by a) indoctrinating them with modesty and chastity from childhood b) men (usually male relatives) mate-guarding them from other men. The reason why these methods were used is that these are the only ones that actually work.

    Hollenhund,

    I’m the product of some very traditional, old country cultures and I can tell you that those strategies didn’t work either. The chaste were often the extremely naive. I actually have a friend some 12 years older than I am who got pregnant without exactly understanding how it happened. She didn’t understand the nature of what was happening because her old country asshole parents not only didn’t tell her the facts of life but berated her for asking questions about things she heard from other girls. They of course blamed her for the pregnancy and forced her to marry the father (who cheated on her and blamed her for forcing him into marriage.)

    Now contrary to what a few people on these blogs persist in thnking, I am not a fan of sex positive feminism. I feel it seeks to convince women that they can win in this SMP by pretending to be men. But all feminism is not sex positive feminism. Frankly, when I read Jezebel for example, I see ideas embraced that would curl the hair of the “equal pay for equal work” crowd of the 70s. I just don’t think that one set of ideas necessarily had to lead to the other and I still value the gains in education and career the movement made possible.

  66. dalrock says:

    @J
    D: J, you are the last person to hold a woman accountable for her actions. They are all broken little birds to you.

    J: Many are, Dalrock. It’s a hard SMP for girls as well as guys. I hope no one ever hurts your daughter in a way that makes that apparent to you. And don’t make the mistake in thinking that you’ll be able to protect her from every jerk out there.

    The cruelest thing we can do to young women is to tell them they aren’t responsible for their own choices. It happens to be cruel to young men to convince them that women aren’t responsible for their choices as well.

    Since you want to make this about family, how will you feel when your sons try to save one of those broken birds, only to find out what mom taught them about poor misunderstood girls all of those years wasn’t true?

    D: you and Octavia start in with this BS that well maybe the change happened hundreds of years ago.

    J: Because the sort of caddishness advocated in the manosphere was invented yesterday in retaliation for something Jaclyn Friedman said last week? Now, who’s bullshitting? Or do you want some slick guy calibrating your daughter’s insecurties and taking advantage of them because there’s a post up at CR today that advocates doing just that as a tactic for getting laid? And we all know that men wanting to get laid is a feminist plot.

    The feminists are the ones eagerly feeding the young girls to Roissy. You would see that if you weren’t so invested in your own participation in the movement.

    Think about it. I poked feminism while pointing out how young women can avoid the pain that goes with being an alpha chaser. Your reaction was to protect feminism, screw the girls (or more accurately let Roissy and company do it).

    Note: Bring my kids into this kind of thing again and I’ll delete the comment and ban you without a note of explanation.

  67. Badger Nation says:

    CAB,


    Want some more giveaway quotes like the ones above? I often see these, or variants thereof, on Facebook profiles:

    “Never regret anything, because at some point, it was exactly what you wanted.”

    “I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle. But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best.”

    Aren’t those ridiculous? Misplaced pride is both laughable and sad. Grerp cited the latter quote in this post:

    http://grerp.blogspot.com/2010/11/facebook-nonsense-example-1.html

    Susan Walsh commented that it functions as a “KEEP OUT” sign. Why do women think guys are interested in this sort of histrionic behavior?

  68. Eumaios says:

    J does us all a service by providing a clear example of the most dangerous type of woman: she who presents a face of peace, while lying in wait for the unwary.

  69. Your reaction was to protect feminism, screw the girls

    I’m inclined to do that because I don’t mind the status quo when compared to a more traditional version of things. Mind you, as with all things, we’re all rent-seekers trying to protect our interests. Besides, as I said before, I don’t see what’s wrong with the carousel if women stay childless.

  70. Badger Nation says:

    Wow, that discussion really got raw real quick.

    [D: J and I have some history here. I mentioned learning what Roissy had to say for her son's sake on CR before I had a blog, and she was furious with me. I apologized. A while back I deleted a comment by J where she suggested someone talk to me about marrying my underage daughter.]

  71. Eumaios says:

    David Alexander: “as I said before, I don’t see what’s wrong with the carousel if women stay childless.”

    Collapse.

    Wait. I’m not sure I’m against that.

  72. P.T. Barnum says:

    That’s not a case of rationally “weighing the benefits of the deal being offered” — it’s a case of mismatching one’s expectations/desires with what one brings to the table.

    Oh, so they are insane.

    Da, Comrade, they should be taken to the camps and re-educated.

    Because anyone who disagrees with you is insane.

    Novey has ever so carefully and precisely weighed the costs and the benefits, for others, and come up with the right answer.

    Does this include the men who killed themselves after their wife left them? Were they to better off getting married rather than looking at photographs or playing World of Warcraft?

    Let’s be honest. Novey, you care NOTHING how much the tree screams as you chop it into a bench. You want a bench. You have a goal. Now how do we get the worthless animal to do what you want?

  73. Lady Raine says:

    I have no clue what “court orders” you are referring to. I have no “court orders” to do anything at all. If you mean regarding my child, I have always had 100% full legal and physical custody with no allowed visitation or involvement from anyone else.

    If you mean my attitude on the “law” in general? It’s true. The law and authority are meaningless to me. A badge, a gavel, a document, whatever the case…..does not resonate in my mind as anything but silly tools meant to herd the cattle.

    I have my own personal set of rules and laws that are far superior to that of any court and I feel no guilt or remorse for following those and ONLY those. The laws of society mean nothing to me. Essentially….they don’t apply to me and I’ve never thought of them any other way.

    If you meant in THAT way, then YES you are absolutely correct. I don’t even take laws into consideration…..but then again…..I rarely feel the need to break them. I don’t go around harming people who haven’t harmed me and I never would.

    But if they do something that truly deserves it? Yes, I’ll destroy them in a slow and painful manner with zero remorse. My attitude is very simple. They get what they give and the law has nothing to do with that.

  74. Höllenhund says:

    “I’m the product of some very traditional, old country cultures and I can tell you that those strategies didn’t work either.”

    J,

    no disagreement on that one. I should have been more specific: other strategies don’t even have the potential to work. As you’ve correctly stated, sex positive feminists either don’t even see this as an issue to be remedied. What they and other feminists worry about is the psychological issues women develop after being pumped & dumped. They offer no useful solution for that. They just blame men for it and want to shame them more.

    “The chaste were often the extremely naive. I actually have a friend some 12 years older than I am who got pregnant without exactly understanding how it happened. She didn’t understand the nature of what was happening because her old country asshole parents not only didn’t tell her the facts of life but berated her for asking questions about things she heard from other girls.”

    The lack of sex education is a completely different issue.

    Brendan and P.T. Barnum,

    I think both of you have false premises. Men don’t make the conscious choice to swear off average women and opt for porn. I don’t think it works that way. They simply look at porn and many of them get addicted without realizing it.

  75. dragnet says:

    “But if they do something that truly deserves it? Yes, I’ll destroy them in a slow and painful manner with zero remorse.”

    I can’t be the only guy who LOL-ed here.

  76. Zammo says:

    “If you mean my attitude on the “law” in general? It’s true. The law and authority are meaningless to me. A badge, a gavel, a document, whatever the case…..does not resonate in my mind as anything but silly tools meant to herd the cattle.”

    Snort, chuckle, guffaw…

  77. The Deuce says:

    Heh, I see Lady Raine is intent on digging her hole as deep as she possibly can. Talk about a lost cause! Dalrock, it must be handy to write a post like this, and then have someone come over and provide an illustration for everybody.

    [D: Yes. It is almost as if her objection is that I made her seem more constrained by the rules of society than she actually is. I honestly have no idea what her actual objection is though.]

  78. J says:

    D: How many posts have I written hoping to convince women they don’t want alphas?

    Many, D, many.

    D: I suggest a way they can avoid being attracted to the wrong guys,

    That’s not my objection.

    D: and you throw them under the bus to protect your investment in your feminist past.]

    No, D, I just have a longer memory than you do. When I was your daughter’s age, a girl could grow up to be a housewife, a teacher, a nurse, a secretary or a stripper. The few female upper level professionals I saw were either assumed to be lesbians or cosigned to old maidhood because no one believed a woman could balance a family and a career. In fact, in the 70s that idea, so easily accepted today, was a subject of hot debate.
    The world has changed a lot since then. Most of you guys are too young to remember that world, so I feel obligated to remind you that it once existed within living memory. I don’t want to go back to that world because some random guys on the internet can’t find a date or feel screwed over by the ex.

    One of your first posts concerned you’re happiness that your daughter can do whatever she wants professionally, including driving a hook truck which even as late as forty years ago would have caused some to label her a “dyke.” That’s possible to a larger degree because of women like me. Sex positive “feminism” is an unforeseen and unintended consequence to women of my generation. I spent a good chunk of my college years having guys question my feminity because I got better grades than they did or going on about how the feminists had ruined a girl who looked like me because I didn’t feel obligated to put out. How that morphed into the Jezebel philosphy–sex, fashion, and celeb gossip weren’t feminism back in the day–is beyond me. But then again, I’m the only not the sole college educated woman on my dad’s side of the family, I’m also the only one who didn’t have a bun in the oven on her wedding day. (I see a connection between having goals and stwaying out of trouble BTW. So do many researchers)

    On the subject of throwing women under the bus, for all the bitching that goes here, I’m willing to bet that when it comes to actually working with young people to assure that they make good choices I’m pretty much alone in putting my money where my mouth is. I’ve spent most of my adult professional life and a good chunk of my free time making the world a better place for teens and young adults of both sexes. Those of you who can say they’ve actually done more than with real people in real life can feel free to be sanctimonious.

  79. J says:

    I should have been more specific: other strategies don’t even have the potential to work. As you’ve correctly stated, sex positive feminists either don’t even see this as an issue to be remedied.

    If you want women to take care of themselves, they had to value themselves as individuals. As cliche as it sounds it’s true. Traditional values in the sense we are discussing didn’t do that and that’s why, once social constraints were removed, they stopped working. For example, girls of my background and generation grew up hearing that no man would marry a non-virgin. Well, obviously that’s not true. There was I think a real backlash/rebellion when women figured that out. How much saner would it have been if all those women had a sense of self-value and self-respect that would have prevented their putting their own heads on the chopping block. Civilization and self-discipline are the topics of this post. No one, male or female, develops that when with the opportunity to develop a sense of autonomy.

  80. J says:

    D:A while back I deleted a comment by J where she suggested someone talk to me about marrying my underage daughter.

    J: Huh? You marrying your daughter? What are you talking about? I asked how you’d feel if some one hurt your daughter. Either you read to fast or there was a typo. Jeez Dalrock, I’d NEVER imply that you’d marry her daugheter. I truly hope I am moisunderstanding you.

    [D: I just checked the trash and it is gone. You were arguing with another commenter on age of consent/marriage, etc. You suggested he contact me to see if I would be willing to marry my daughter to him at a young age. Like I've said before J, sometimes you will say anything in order to win an argument (but in that case it wasn't with me). I'm confident that I didn't misread it, because my wife read it too. I'm surprised you don't recall it.]

  81. P.T. Barnum says:

    I think both of you have false premises. Men don’t make the conscious choice to swear off average women and opt for porn. I don’t think it works that way. They simply look at porn and many of them get addicted without realizing it.

    Ah yes, the “helpless addict” argument. That’s why we got prisons! Cause you know, if the addict his “helpless” before their addiction, well then MAXIMUM PUNISHMENT.

    Tell me, if I offered, say, 3000 dollars a month to these “addicts” to stop, how many of them would?

    Almost all? Well then, what a fierce and uncontrollable addiction that is!

    I guess we can place the value of the “deal” women offer at under 3000 dollars a month then. In their “subconscious” of course.

  82. The Deuce says:

    Dalrock:

    Yes. It is almost as if her objection is that I made her seem more constrained by the rules of society than she actually is. I honestly have no idea what her actual objection is though.

    Pretty sure it’s your shameful failure to declare that her egotism, sense of entitlement, lack of self-control, and complete failure to recognize any social obligations whatsoever are wonderful and laudatory, and in no way detract from her likelihood of finding lasting happiness or her qualifications for being a good life partner and mother.

  83. J says:

    That? From months ago? I had truly forgotten about that and didn’t even realize you had deleted that comment.
    That wasn’t a crack about your daughter. I used you as an example of a manosphere guy who might agree with some of what that commenter had to say but still had the sense to realize that early marriages of young girls to older men are often exploitive. I had no idea you saw that as a smack at your family or yourself. It certainly wasn’t meant that way. If you said something about feeling that I was taking a shot at your family and I didn’t see, get it or respond to it, I am sorry. I honestly hadn’t realized that that comment had offended you or your wife.
    Thanks for taking my last three comments out of moderation and allowing us to clear the air. I appreciate knowing what you were upset about.

  84. Anonymous Reader says:

    Me
    It is typical of a feminist to only notice…

    J
    It is typical of you to continually categorize me a way that I actually haven’t thought of myself in decades, but I suppose that’s easier for you than to actually deal with the CONTENT of my posts.

    The CONTENT of your postings has included cliche’, feminist shaming language, and often little else. This is trivial to point out and deal with. However, on a sane weblog such as this one, feminist dogma ought to be pointed out and debunked on a regular basis, for reasons that should be obvious.

    Me
    The fact that 90% of the homeless are men isn’t something you’d want to talk about in any context of Affirmative Action, I am certain.

    J
    1) I’m not completely sure about the veracity of that statistic; many of the homeless are families. I know because my family volunteers from time to time at a shelter; there are oodles of women and kids.

    And of course, all the homeless are always in those nice tidy shelters. None of them are under highway underpasses. None of them are in boxes behind dumpsters. None of them are in parking structures. And there’s not a single homeless shelter that would turn away a man, in order to make space for a woman, nope, nope. nope. Never happen. So all we have to do is look at shelters, and we’ll know everything there is to know about homeless. Because there is no such thing as selection bias, not on Planet J.

    J
    2) Significant numbers of homeless people are mentally ill. If 90% of the homeless are male, that would suggest that mental illness is more loikely to strike men.

    Given the variance in IQ that I mentioned earlier, which you have chosen to ignore in your 1970’s feminist fashion, that would not be a surprise, either.

    J
    3) I have never brought up affirmative action (which BTW I oppose).

    If you actually understood what it means that men have a larger variance in IQ than women do, you would comprehend my statement. It is interesting that you oppose it, slightly interesting.

  85. Anonymous Reader says:

    J
    No, D, I just have a longer memory than you do. When I was your daughter’s age, a girl could grow up to be a housewife, a teacher, a nurse, a secretary or a stripper.

    Oh, what a load of feminist cowshit. One of my relatives was involved in bacteriology and microbiology research in 1938, because she was an intelligent woman who understood the scientific method. Her father, a 19th century man till the day he died, encouraged her in that effort. Maybe you were told those were your choices, but those of us who didn’t grow up with a European peasant culture did not have such idiotic baggage.

    This kind of blatant lying wasn’t interesting or amusing 40 years ago, and it is downright tiresomely stupid now.

  86. Anonymous Reader says:

    Really? So all those “Girls Gone Wild” tapes aren’t real? They are faked?

    There’s a big difference between real and typical.

    Are the women in those tapes civilized, or uncivilized? The answer is obvious. Are they “doing their own thing? The answer is obvious. Are they entitled to do anything they want, and to suffer no consequences? The answer is obvious.

    Who taught women for decades that they are entitled to do anything they want and pay no price, entitled to ride the cock carousel and have a reliable, kind, man waiting for them at the end to be a husband, entitled to a good job, entitled to attention from alpha males, entitled to have beta men arrested for harassment at a whim, entitled to get rid of that kind, reliable man when they tire of him but retain half of his wealth and over half of his earnings?

    Who taught all those things? Was it Martians? Was it The Oppressive Patriarchy?

    One of the signs of a true believer, in the Hofferian sense, is a total inability to admit that The Belief could ever have led to anything bad or wrong. An inability to admit error. I’m beginning to see why some people insist feminism is nothing more than a variant of Marxist-Leninism…

  87. dalrock says:

    @Anon Reader
    Oh, what a load of feminist cowshit. One of my relatives was involved in bacteriology and microbiology research in 1938, because she was an intelligent woman who understood the scientific method.

    I’m afraid I have to side with J on this one Anon Reader. I just don’t buy it. Not that she was a woman doing scientific research, but that people were studying microbiology that far back. That was before feminists invented electricity after all.

  88. grerp says:

    Women have been librarians for a long time as well. Women were also waitresses, hairdressers, salesclerks, artists, singers, and fashion models prior to the Feminist movement. They manned family stores and worked on the family farm. They just weren’t CEOs, except for the rare woman who started her own successful company (Madame C.J. Walker, Mary Kay Ash). I think what gets overlooked in discussions of what men could do vs. what women could do is the fact that most men’s choices weren’t that extensive either. For generations if your father was a farmer, you were a farmer. If your father worked in the mines, you worked in the mines. There was some career mobility for those who had enough wealth to be educated, and then after WWII the G.I. Bill and the economic boom spawned a slew of new careers unavailable before – which made women want more career choice as well. But the vast majority of Americans for the whole of American history worked at their jobs because that’s what was available and what (hopefully) paid the bills. The day laborers, chimney sweeps, lumberjacks, street hawkers, share croppers, and factory workers never sought or got self-actualization from their work. That’s a 20th century idea(l), and a late 20th century one at that.

  89. JackAmok says:

    “That depends on the culture. Cultures that prize self control tend to agree with you, and they tend to be better places to live for the average person; think of Switzerland as an example. Cultures that prize expansive expression, on the other hand, have often produced men that are quite good at individual combat.”

    Well, cultures without a lot of self control might spawn wild-eyed warriors, but the cultures that prize self control end up kicking their butts. Romans at their height were the epitome of self-control, marching in disciplined legions and sweeping everyone else from the battlefield. Until they lost their self-control and degenerated into the orgies and factious infighting that led to the fall.

    Wild-eyed pistol wavers not afraid to die end up getting their wish. And the calm guy who shot them gets to decide what to do with the world afterwards. Ever meet a real Navy SEAL? Lots of impulse control.

  90. Lady Raine says:

    I have no idea what you people are blathering about, but nothing about me or my comment has anything to do with entitlement or egotism.

    I have what I have because I have worked to earn my own money/things since the age of 14. I don’t go out tricking and manipulating anyone to do things FOR me. It’s useless because I can do them better myself. Everyone should have that attitude because it’s the truth. The amount of time men and women spend manipulating others to “get what they want” is twice the time and trouble it takes to become a master of whatever that is yourself.

    It also has nothing to do with impulse control. I have no problem with “impulse”. It’s rare that I feel the urge to to do anything except live the way that I think is good for me and my child. The way others feel about that is also meaningless and I’ve never taken it into consideration, because…..why would I?

    I pay my taxes, I contribute to the world by NOT freeloading off of anyone or anything, I contribute to relationships by being honest and faithful, and I contribute to society by NOT harming anyone who hasn’t literally tried to harm me.

    My personal thoughts and opinions on laws, politics, or other nonsense have nothing to do with what I do and do not contribute and I also don’t see how that is related to a sense of entitlement.

    I don’t feel “entitled” to any particular type of job, boyfriend, or lifestyle. I decide what type of those things I want/need…..and I go out and earn them. I don’t know why that’s so difficult a concept to understand, but none of those things are based in entitlement nor in egotism.

    Do I care if others are failing in their own lives because they’re too busy whining on the internet? No. Do I care if ridiculous laws are broken and the justice system is pissed? No. But no normal person who has ANY success in life sits around pondering the “unfairness” of it all because that just makes them an idiot and a lazy-ass, in my opinion.

    I’ve been successful because I’ve been willing to work hard and take responsibility for whatever I’ve created in life. And I’m delighted to do so. But I owe the world nothing more than that and certainly shouldn’t feel remorse for my choices that I’ve taken responsibility for. Remorse, resentment, whining, wishing, fretting……are all useless emotions. Sorry if that’s “egotistical” to you all…..but that’s the way it is. Life isn’t fair and never will be. Some people are winners and some people are losers and it was never meant to be any other way. So we as humans select our categories willingly and should shut our mouths about it because it IS and always will be a CHOICE that was made.

    If you’re failing at something it’s because you chose to fail. You make the decisions and then you either win or lose. Very simple, very efficient. Seeing life as a chess game whether other forces are at work forcing your “decisions” is preposterous and downright idiotic. No wonder so many people choose to be failures.

  91. Anonymous Reader says:

    Lady Raine:
    I have no idea what you people are blathering about…

    Don’t let the door smack you on the way out, ok?

  92. Eumaios says:

    Thought experiment: Imagine if Lady Raine’s comments were written by The Obsidian. Would we react differently?

  93. Eumaios says:

    Also, this: “It’s rare that I feel the urge to to do anything except live the way that I think is good for me and my child.”

    OMG, that.

  94. Anonymous Reader says:

    Eumaios
    Thought experiment: Imagine if Lady Raine’s comments were written by The Obsidian.

    Ok. I’m imagining….

    Would we react differently?

    …and my reaction is “Who the heck are you, and what have you done with The Obsidian? Are you The Obsidian on meth?”

  95. Eumaios says:

    Anonymous Coward: “Who the heck are you, and what have you done with The Obsidian? Are you The Obsidian on meth?”

    I’m a swineherd loyal to Odysseus. Duh.

  96. Anonymous Reader says:

    So, Eumaios, you claim now to be Lady Raine as well?

  97. terry says:

    the so-called “alphas” who break the rules actually only do so in small, stupid ways. they don’t do anything serious, worthy or even consequential, it’s all just dumb shit. as kids they are often wiggers.

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  100. Tinderbox says:

    Lady Raine…ugh. What a sociopath.

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  104. Dark Knight says:

    I have seen young women behave worse than men these days. ALL the major fights in my high school were caused by women. To put it bluntly….if a man did the same things a woman does; he would be bashed.

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  108. Princess21 says:

    Single ladies, please find a PRACTISING muslim man, they’ll show you have to behave well and encourage you to have morals instead of merely being critical in the corner or venting on a website. Real Muslim men would love a beautiful western female and try their best to improve her.

  109. John Dye says:

    @ Princess21. Yes, real muslim men like your “prophet” Mohammed who raped, and encouraged his soldiers to rape, the women his glorious troops had enslaved after killing their husbands, sons and fathers and who, in his fifties, added a six-year-old child to his harem, his modern followers offering the “excuse” he did not rape (my term) her before she was in her 9th moon calendar year. You should be ashamed to propose “improving” women of any non-muslim culture, whether Western, Chinese, Indian or African.

  110. anonymous says:

    Single ladies, please find a PRACTISING muslim man, they’ll show you have to behave well and encourage you to have morals instead of merely being critical in the corner or venting on a website. Real Muslim men would love a beautiful western female and try their best to improve her.

    Oh, please. Every Western woman I ever knew, who was foolish enough to date or marry a Muslim man, got SEVERELY ABUSED sooner or later.

    A Western woman dating a Muslim man is the pinnacle of stupidity. He will be ultra-charming, ultra-romantic, in the beginning — because he knows that’s what SHE wants — but as soon as he’s got her, he becomes an abusive, controlling monster — because that’s what HE wants. He does not love her because he is culturally incapable of loving her.

    The reverse combination — Western men, with Muslim women — sometimes works out well. The Muslim woman is treated a lot better than she expected to be, and is grateful.

  111. anonymous says:

    A Western woman dating a Muslim man is the pinnacle of stupidity. He will be ultra-charming, ultra-romantic, in the beginning — because he knows that’s what SHE wants — but as soon as he’s got her, he becomes an abusive, controlling monster — because that’s what HE wants. He does not love her because he is culturally incapable of loving her.

    It just hit me — this is a pretty good description of sociopaths.

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  113. X-Grail says:

    At the end of the day, it matters not whether you were born male or female. Whether we like it or not, life is also a competition, a survival to the fittest. Fittest in all aspects and that includes CHARACTER. The weaker character will always be in the losing end, in the long term. I guess we will have to wait another generation or two before these misguided feminist ideas will be refined and realigned to what really makes a strong character. But as for me, I will do everything in my power to make my daugther develop a strong and resilient character. That is probably the best gift I could give as parent. And may God have mercy to those who have been and who will be led astray by all these untested and dangerous ideas.

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