35 and unmarried? Sing for a husband on youtube!

I saw the video below on the Rex Patriarch blog post Hitting The Wall Like A Bug On The Windshield.

A 35 year old woman on a desperate husband hunt isn’t exactly news to the manosphere.  This is a phenomena which has been exaggerated out of proportion, at least for the current crop of women 35 and older as can be seen by the median age of marriage and other Census org data:

Percent of White Men and Women Ever Married by Age, 1999 and 2009

Percent of White Men and Women Ever Married by Age, 1999 and 2009

The way the data is bracketed makes it impossible to be precise, but the woman on the video is in roughly the last 15% of white women her age who remain unmarried.  While it may be the case that every woman she knows her age isn’t married, the reality is she is very much in the minority.

What surprised me about the video however is not the fact that a 30 something woman is all of a sudden in a rush to find a husband.  It wasn’t the fact that  she has already picked out her wedding date.  It wasn’t even the awful singing which got my attention (although I did have to find a chalkboard to scratch my fingernails down just to get that sound out of my head).  What did surprise me was how nearly universal the response was from men.  Here in the manosphere the attitude towards a 30 something woman looking to marry is rightly or wrongly quite harsh.  The comments on youtube looked very much like one might have seen on The Spearhead or Citizen Renegade:

Dmacho78:

She’s not unlike most women, who are in love with the idea of marriage instead of truly being in love. It’s a win-win situation for them as they can get divorced and ass rape the man in court, which is their plan most of the time as most divorces are initiated by women.

The more I learn about women, the less I respect them. When you think about it, what can you really respect about women ?

SIG551P:

You don’t seem mentally stable. And you’re about 10 years late into the marriage game.

You’ve probably been very promiscuous throughout those 10 years, so what gives you the impression that any man would at all be interested in you?

That’s just totally unrealistic.

BigTony413:

rudebwoy1974 is right! All of a sudden the town j***-jar realizes she’s over 30 and alone. Some poor schlub is gonna get taken-in by her fading looks and marry that crazy chick. Kinda like getting a donut that someone already sucked all the jelly out of…..( looks OK on the outside but is used up and empty on the inside).

A number of other commentators were especially curious about her sammich making abilities:

less music, more sammiches !

I have a wife already, but could use another one for odd jobs around the house…
Can you make sandwiches?

I’m interested but the first thing that would have to go would be that keyboard, then I’d need a look at your mother. The real deal breaker would be your sammich making skillz and what kind of truck you drive. Oh yeah, if you have any disease other than EBR, it ends here.

So a note to unmarrieds over 30, bone up on sammich making skills since this appears to be in high demand.

The reason I say the reaction surprises me is because my generation as a whole hasn’t been all that suspicious of women in their 30s looking to marry.  I know 3 different couples where the wife was 35 when they married.  None of these women had kids or had previously married.  And none of them struck me as carousel riders.

What I think is happening here is the cynicism of the younger generation who have witnessed the full meltdown of women’s sexual morality in the hookup culture is now seeping into older men.  We knew this was the case in the manosphere, but from the comments on this video at least it seems much more widespread than just our corner of the internet.

Imagine being a typical 35 year old clueless beta/white knight and looking at that video.  His first reaction might have been Mom!  Come down into the basement and look at this, I’ve found a pretty(ish) woman who wants to marry! But we all know moms can’t be rushed when making snacks for their sons, so she likely finishes her task before coming to view the good news.  In the meantime, our intrepid beta will have read all of the disparaging remarks about this fine woman who finds herself suddenly 35 and unmarried.  Reading these remarks has to throw at least a little cold water on his excitement to marry her.  It might dispirit him enough that he stops mid reply and switches back to World of Warcraft, leaving his mother scratching her head while holding a juice box and PBJ sandwich with the crusts removed.

And who can blame him?  I was 22 when I met my wife, and she was 18.  We’ve spent the last 18 years together.  She’s only a year older than our husband hunting friend above.  It makes you wonder;  what was she doing for the last 17 years?  Was marriage not a priority for her?  Was she too picky? Did she overestimate her own value?  Did she treat dating as if she was a judge and not a participant?  Was she getting her fun out of the way?  Was she riding the carousel?  As I said I think many women hit this age without having been promiscuous.   But for a man considering marriage I think this is something which should at least give great pause.  It appears this is the case already.

I can only imagine what today’s 25 year old men will think of 35 year old women in a rush to marry 10 years from now.  Based on the smaller percentage of women married in their 20s now vs 10 years prior, many more women will be in that position in 10 years.

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106 Responses to 35 and unmarried? Sing for a husband on youtube!

  1. J says:

    The way the data is bracketed makes it impossible to be precise, but the woman on the video is in roughly the last 15% of white women her age who remain unmarried. While it may be the case that every woman she knows her age isn’t married, the reality is she is very much in the minority.

    She is probably in an even bigger minority that the numbers suggest. You gotta wonder how many never married women over 35 are gay. Some claim about 10%, which corresponds to the numbers in the oldest age brackets.

    We knew this was the case in the manosphere, but from the comments on this video at least it seems much more widespread than just our corner of the internet.

    Maybe, but the newer the comment, the more negative it is. There are even some positive comments among the older ones. I suspect that many of the commenters found the video by following links from the manosphere.

    It makes you wonder; what was she doing for the last 17 years?

    We simply don’t know. She could have been riding the carousel or living in a convent. (I personally know half a dozen 30+ brides who once were nuns.) Maybe she was working on her music. Maybe she’s a former fatty. Either way, I wish her luck. As dumb as she looks in the video, at least she had the courage to put herself out there.

  2. JD says:

    When I am elected President (Dictator) for Life, my first act will be to ban the use of the word “sammich.” Offenders will be sentenced to working in school or nursing home cafeteria lunchrooms making … sandwiches. :D

    Seriously, some women remain unmarried because they are: shy, nerdy, rather unattractive, or live in areas where the dating pool is extremely limited. One of my dearest female friends is unmarried because she spent evenings and weekends taking care of her parents in their declining years, sparing them the necessity of going into nursing home care. That vulgar “c” carousel riding meme has been over hyped due to the gazillion blogs that repeat the same themes over and over. It ain’t all Sex and the City!

  3. sestamibi says:

    One thing you have to take into consideration is the “single by choice” element, part of which is lesbians among older single women (as J points out above), but others who just never “found the right one” because they simply had expectations far out of whack with reality.

    As I got older I found it was actually getting harder because this was a self-selecting process. Those women who really wanted marriage and kids made whatever compromises they had to make earlier in life, and those that were left were increasingly composed of the attitude problems.

    I got married at 46. My wife was 38, and we have a 12-year old son. I wish I had done it much sooner, but that’s the way it goes. As for the carousel question, given her timidity, I really doubt she was part of that scene.

  4. dalrock says:

    I think things were very different for your generation. The seams of the culture hadn’t started unraveling yet, and marrying late in life wasn’t something anyone gave a second thought about. My wife and I were probably on the tail end of the period before things really started to change.

  5. dalrock says:

    She is probably in an even bigger minority that the numbers suggest. You gotta wonder how many never married women over 35 are gay. Some claim about 10%, which corresponds to the numbers in the oldest age brackets.

    I don’t buy the 10% figure for gays, but you have to figure that gay, insane, morbidly obese, not interested, etc combined should make up around 10%. Maybe more. So yes she really is among the very last to want to marry.

    the newer the comment, the more negative it is. There are even some positive comments among the older ones. I suspect that many of the commenters found the video by following links from the manosphere.

    I only went back a month or two on the comments, and the vast majority were manosphere type heckling. How far back did you have to look before the majority were positive?

  6. dalrock says:

    I’ll vote for your ban on “sammich” if you’ll support my effort to equip all playhouses with snipers in case an actor suddenly bursts into song. Deal? :)

    One of my dearest female friends is unmarried because she spent evenings and weekends taking care of her parents in their declining years, sparing them the necessity of going into nursing home care. That vulgar “c” carousel riding meme has been over hyped due to the gazillion blogs that repeat the same themes over and over. It ain’t all Sex and the City!

    I try very hard to show a balanced picture, because I think it is very easy to go too far one way or another. Something is definitely happening, but as you say there are many women who don’t fit the stereotype. Like I said we know three couples where the wife was 35 or older at the time of the wedding and I would be shocked if any of them were carouselers. My main point in this post wasn’t to knock such women, but to note how the larger perception of them seems to be changing. This is something younger women should at least be advised of so they can make fully informed choices.

  7. Anonymous age 68 says:

    Timidity? I hope that was a sarcastic statement, one thing she is not is timid. She has put her name and face on an international video channel, and announced she has the wedding date set already. Words that come to mind are brash and brazen, not timid.

    Those figures I consider to be propaganda data. The past does not always predict the future. Those numbers are meant to encourage women that nothing need be changed, because after all over 90% of women eventually get married. That may have been true of women who were born in 1960. Of course, it might also be another bogus study, who knows.

    But, when the marriage rate changes fast, you cannot end up with the same results.

    Here are marriage rates from DGM-2, with a couple items added:

    Number of Marriages per 1,000
    Unmarried Women Age 15 and
    Older, by Year, United States:

    1922 99 (found on Web)
    1960 73.5
    1961 72.2
    1962 71.2
    1963 73.4
    1964 74.6
    1965 75.0
    1966 75.6
    1967 76.4
    1968 79.1
    1969 80.0
    1970 76.5
    1972 77.9
    1975 66.9
    1977 63.6
    1980 61.4
    1983 59.9
    1985 56.2
    1987 55.7
    1990 54.5
    1991 54.2
    1992 53.3
    1993 52.3
    1995 50.8
    2000 46.5
    2004 39.9
    2007 39.2 (Rutgers 2009)
    2008 37.4 (Rutgers 2009)

    Note the national marriage project has moved from Rutgers to UVa if you want to look for it.

  8. dalrock says:

    I think he was referring to his own wife when he said timid.

    Those figures I consider to be propaganda data. The past does not always predict the future.

    You really have to be careful how you read the data. It is tempting to see it as a timeline of when people marry. But as you say the culture is changing rapidly so you can’t do that. I cover this in more detail in my Grey Divorce P2 post. But I have no reason to believe that the data is incorrect.

  9. Justin says:

    Dalrock, look at some of her other videos. This is a just a self-promotion effort, a self-produced reality TV on Youtube thing. She is an entertainer.

  10. Snark says:

    A study just conducted in Britain shows that a little more than 1.5% of people are gay.

    Gay rights groups went beserk and insisted that IT SIMPLY MUST BE HIGHER THAN THAT.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/relationships/8020574/Gay-population-much-lower-than-believed-first-official-figures-show.html

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  12. J says:

    The majority is never positive, but at the beginning of the thread it’s 50-50. Some posters tell her she’s pretty, has a nice voice or wish her luck. The rest are negative, but not necessarily manosphere negative, just typical Youtube heckling.

  13. J says:

    Those women who really wanted marriage and kids made whatever compromises they had to make earlier in life, and those that were left were increasingly composed of the attitude problems.

    My experiences with men were similar; after a certain points that’s left is mama’s boys and nutjobs–or the first wave of bitter divorced guys.

    I wish I had done it much sooner, but that’s the way it goes.

    Yeah, me too. But I’m pretty happy with the way things turned out.

  14. J says:

    @Snark

    Could be. I didn’t comment on the believablity of the figure; I said it was the number that is popularly claimed. IRL, it doesn’t seem to me that 10% of the people I know are gay. OTOH, it’s not all that rare either.

    Even 50 or 100 years ago, not everyone got married. I do recall reading once that in any generation about 10% of women never marry. That may well include women who never marry for a variety of reasons–less attractive, taking care of aging parents, devoted to career, mentally ill, timid, never got over a heartbreak, asexual, gay, victim of a man shortage, or whatever.

  15. dalrock says:

    @J

    The majority is never positive, but at the beginning of the thread it’s 50-50. Some posters tell her she’s pretty, has a nice voice or wish her luck. The rest are negative, but not necessarily manosphere negative, just typical Youtube heckling.

    I don’t think you can attribute the manosphere type heckling to links from men’s rights sites. My EPL video was picked up by a number of such sites, as well as some facebook pages. As a result it now has over 800 views and 5 comments. Her video has 51 thousand views and 178 comments. The manosphere and MRA movement is very small in the scheme of youtube. If the general youtube public wasn’t sympathetic to this kind of comment, you would see an uproar by others. They would literally be drowned out. But they aren’t.

    So the real story could be that once exposed to the manosphere view on this topic, most guys will jump on the bandwagon. Either way it is very telling.

  16. dalrock says:

    I saw that speculation on the blog I found this from. Either way it doesn’t change the point of the post. The comments are what I was focused on far more than the video itself.

  17. Lily says:

    I was trying to find out how many women were left single because of the world wars, but on a quick google, couldn’t. Just a book called ‘How Two Million Women Survived without Men After the First World War’. However, the first 2 paragraphs of this wikipedia article made me laugh.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spinster

    As to the topic, I think 35 year old women who’ve never been married are probably quite statistically insignificant overall but are more likely to be in certain areas/sets of people. I’m imagine much skewed in places like NYC. And there are for example more in my metropolitan area than there are in the village I grew up in (I can’t think of a single one there come to think of it).

    I’m not saying that all women in metropolitan areas are willing to settle down and the men their age aren’t willing, but on the whole the men seem to tend to take longer to grow up, generally. For example, if you took a pool of 28 year professional singles in my area, the men would be likely sharing rented accommodation with a couple of friends (some super pad with plasma tv etc) and the women would more likely own a small flat.

    It may be that as some people think the stats are going to change with more unmarried women, but I must say my peers and I were influenced by older women (sestamibi’s generation) who were getting married older and having children older or not getting married as they’d put their careers first, and at this stage of my life, I know few women between the ages of 30 and 40 who have never been married (most got married around age 30). Out of the single ones, most are not carousel riders, they may have had the odd boyfriend or one long term relationship, some had an experience like this which is striking a chord with many people:
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-1311459/Chris-Moyles-says-final-goodbye-heartbroken-girlfriend-Sophie.html

    But most are just girls who worked hard through their twenties, and don’t go out masses. Personally, I think a guy’s willingness to marry is a lot to do to his time in your life, so you need to meet enough guys. If you work a lot and work in a female dominated environment (marketing, HR, teaching) and you work long hours, well it’s a numbers game. Ironically, I think carousel riders are more likely to get married.

  18. jack says:

    Lily-

    The notion that men take longer to “grow up” is past its sell-by date(whatever that is supposed to mean). It is so vague as to be meaningless.

    With regard to home ownership, many men did not bite on overpriced real estate. Home “ownership” (debtorship) is not any measure of maturity. The simple fact is that women have a more powerful nesting instinct, and purchase real estate so that they may further indulge their desire for furniture and decorations. An expensive designer sofa is the female equivalent of the man’s plasma TV. Also, some of us have have remained renters since we figure that we would pick out a house when we get married, rather than having to resell a house. The fact that women are buying more real estate only proves that they are satisfying their own desires. Renting and buying are both sound choices based on the economy.

    The trend that you think is men refusing to grow up is actually men refusing to pick up the check for a lot of reformed sluts and accidental single mothers. A traditional chaste wife and family is not probable for most of us unless we want another man’s kids to be part of the mix. Throw in the female-biased family courts and lots of divorce horrors, and men decide to say hell with it.

    Sure, many alphas are reluctant to settle down, since they are feasting from the buffet of willing females. Many other men like myself are out of the market completely, preferring to keep our money for ourselves rather than be a backup plan for some girl who would have ignored us at 28.

    Avoiding marriage is the rational choice for many of us.

  19. Lovekraft says:

    I think that the woman’s effort is admirable, but highly misguided. She is trying to portray herself as an emotional, artistic person which in this day and age should be FAR from a man’s mind in choosing a future wife. How is she with finances comes to mind? Looking at her home, her attire, hair etc, I wonder how much money has to be spent to just keep up appearances.

    I know her college degree and Oprah has filled her mind with many vibrant ideas to dazzle and keep up with a man, but men know that most of that stuff is IRRELEVANT to long-term marriage success. Actually, quite counter-productive, because lots of effort needs to be spent DECONDITIONING her from the entitled, materialistic, snarkiness that such mentality entails.

    So, sure, I’m being kind of harsh on her. Maybe she has a good heart. But the time for pulling punches is long gone: Western anglo-saxons are in retreat mode and need strong, traditional values more than ever. Turning to globalization is an empty, unsatisfying endeavour, IMO.

  20. marcellus says:

    This is really eye-opening!

  21. Lavazza says:

    I agree that for good or bad the group that counts for all discussions on social trends are the urban professionals. And they are quite different from the average. For example in the most expensive part of Stockholm the mean age for a woman having her first child is 6-10 years higher than the national average (I can go back and check it but I hope my inexact mermory is good enough for you).

  22. Lavazza says:

    Checked. Apparantly it is a canard. The difference is just around 3-4 years.

  23. Lily says:

    @ Lavazza
    Sounds about right, same here. And I know where you’re talking about.

    @Jack
    I’m really sorry that’s your experience and it certainly sounds like you’re not one of the guys I’m talking about. We obviously live different lives/know different people.

    Both my ex husband and my new partner had girlfriends between approx ages of 22 and 28 (who would have made great wives and mothers) but they split up with them as they were not ready to settle down at that time. This is not an uncommon scenario.

    As for home ownership, again different experiences. Where I live, as long as you’re not taking out a ridiculously high mortgage (say over 75%) you’re much better off buying. At least over a 5 year period if not before.

    “The trend that you think is men refusing to grow up is actually men refusing to pick up the check for a lot of reformed sluts and accidental single mothers”
    This is not a trend I see at all. It certainly doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exist but not one in my circles. Below the age of 33 it’s not really an issue. At least not the children. Yes some of the women have had a few partners (but really I think these are more likely to be married than the more bookish ones) but no picking up the check involved as they’re professionals. Quite a few married guys I know say they wouldn’t own the house they do now if not for the previous property their wife had.

    Any half way decent guy can avoid what you say by marrying at around 26 to a girl that age. There are plenty of girls around who did not slut it up when they were younger and are ready to get married, and less guys who are ready to get married at that age. It’s a buyer’s market.

  24. Will S. says:

    Looks like she found herself a victim:

  25. Dalrock, you my husband would agree with you 100% about actors bursting out into song. He loathes it, even when he knows it’s coming- like in most of Disney’s kid flicks.

    As for women marrying later, I think a lot of it is hyped up based on the way things used to be. But some of it is true, or will definitely be true going forward as more people are skipping marriage all together.

    You did well by distinguishing between marriage rates for white women specifically. The successful, unmarried (not by choice) black woman is a theme widely reported on in the media and lamented on by black women.

    Still, I know plenty of black married women. Of course, they all married quite young, myself included.

  26. dalrock says:

    @Terry
    Dalrock, you my husband would agree with you 100% about actors bursting out into song. He loathes it, even when he knows it’s coming- like in most of Disney’s kid flicks.

    You already had me sold on him when you told me all of the things he can do. But now I like him even more!

    As for women marrying later, I think a lot of it is hyped up based on the way things used to be. But some of it is true, or will definitely be true going forward as more people are skipping marriage all together.

    I agree. I think something is happening, but it is really hard to pin down. On top of that most discussions don’t use hard data so we are left to our imagination.

    You did well by distinguishing between marriage rates for white women specifically. The successful, unmarried (not by choice) black woman is a theme widely reported on in the media and lamented on by black women.

    Good point. I have to admit I was recycling a chart I put together for part 2 of my Grey Divorce series. When I put it together I focused on white stats because I was interested in cultural shifts over time and didn’t want to pick up trends due to a changing ethnic makeup. But your point here made me curious so I grabbed the 2009 data series for black women. It looks like if she were black she would be part of a remaining 45% instead of 15%:

    2009 Black Women
    Black Alone Never Married Percent
    20-24 years 87.3
    25-29 years 69.4
    30-34 years 49.3
    35-39 years 38.1
    40-44 years 31.3
    45-49 years 30.0
    50-54 years 24.8
    55-64 years 18.2
    65-74 years 9.6

    Still, I know plenty of black married women. Of course, they all married quite young, myself included.

    Looking at the data above, it is interesting that the big jump for black women happens around age 30. I was curious if this was a generational difference or just a popular age to marry. Looking at the same data pulled ten years prior it looks like it is mostly generational, with a large drop in the percentage of black women who marry in their late 20s:

    1999 Black Women
    Black Alone Never Married Percent
    20-24 years 85.7
    25-29 years 58.4
    30-34 years 45.9
    35-39 years 37.3

  27. J says:

    But most are just girls who worked hard through their twenties, and don’t go out masses. Personally, I think a guy’s willingness to marry is a lot to do to his time in your life, so you need to meet enough guys. If you work a lot and work in a female dominated environment (marketing, HR, teaching) and you work long hours, well it’s a numbers game. Ironically, I think carousel riders are more likely to get married.

    This parallels my personal experiences. Not a bar girl, long hours in a female dominated work environment, watching carousel riders get married. I used to feel that men loved dumb sluts with the same conviction that manosphere guys feel that women love jerks.

  28. dalrock says:

    watching carousel riders get married. I used to feel that men loved dumb sluts with the same conviction that manosphere guys feel that women love jerks.

    I think this fits with my point that my generation and older didn’t typically have much suspicion about a woman’s past. I think we largely bought the feminist mantra about the unfair double standard, at least for a while. Now it appears to be swinging back.

    Still, I wonder if they didn’t still pay some sort of price. While I would probably have told you 20 years ago that it didn’t really matter (logically), at a gut level I still couldn’t look at a promiscuous woman the same way. From your observation, were these women marrying well or did they have to dig deeper than those who weren’t promiscuous to marry?

  29. Badger Nation says:

    I agree with the tenor of your post, Dalrock. We in the manosphere are often harsh on the “settlers” and judge these women as if everything they did was a conscious effort to ensnare and rob beta males of their dignity and material worth.

    A lot of these people just did what was available or came naturally (boy, can’t avoid the no-pun-intendeds here can I), woke up one day and said “WTF happened to my life???” The very same way a lot of guys fall into marriage and a few years down the road turn introspective and wonder what happened.

    Now we move to the question of WHY they are riding the carousel instead of working and living sanely when young. Were young women more mature ~50 years ago? Probably, but partially because they had to be. Life came at you pretty quick at age 18 or 20. Today society “expects” people to “have their fun” in their 20’s, and we see the end results like this woman as roadkill.

  30. Badger Nation says:

    I concur with Jack and think Lily is off base. Defining “growing up” as “wanting to get married or buy property” is just silly. Let me take a stab – “men are more financially astute than women which is why they more often have roommates in their 20’s.” See what I did there? Just took some specious facts and inferred and even more specious result.

    It’s nonsense. Jack is correct that rational avoidance is partially at play. There’s a simpler explanation too – it takes a man longer to develop his marriage value. A woman’s primary marriage value, her attractiveness and non-jaded/non-manipulative sweetness, peak in the early 20’s. She’ll catch her best fish then. Whereas if a man is smart and socially able, he won’t reach peak attractiveness until his late 20’s, more if you count advanced grad school. Even if he is interested in marriage there’s no reason for him to land his catch until he’s peaked his bait.

  31. dalrock says:

    Whereas if a man is smart and socially able, he won’t reach peak attractiveness until his late 20′s, more if you count advanced grad school. Even if he is interested in marriage there’s no reason for him to land his catch until he’s peaked his bait.

    I think you are probably right from a SMV point of view. What I think makes this less clear cut though is the fact that when in college you have a massive pool of singles in your basic age bracket who you come into contact with on a regular basis. Once you graduate and get into the workforce this seems to change. So you may have better bait, but be fishing in less rich water. The other factor is what Terry brought up on another thread. If a woman marries you before you have made it I think she is making an investment in you as well as your potential. If you marry later you probably have to sort out the gold diggers more carefully. So I could see an argument for a man marrying at the tail end of college or waiting until his late twenties.

  32. J says:

    From your observation, were these women marrying well or did they have to dig deeper than those who weren’t promiscuous to marry?

    Many married well. A gal that put out for my husband’s entire high school crowd became a nurse and married a doctor. One of my cousins dated the town pump who, after aborting his baby and breaking up with him, married a lawyer. I knew a lot of others back in the day, and I still run meet women with high status husbands who I can tell were slutty 30 years ago. (There’s a vibe women pick up from other women.)

    I think these women were so successful with men because they were female “alphas,” down to having the female equivalent of the “dark triad.” They were socially dominant. When they saw a man they wanted, they went after him and got him. They were also risk-takers. If they got pumped and dumped, oh well…there was always the next guy. They were fairly narcissitic as well. They believed in the immutability of their own market value. They could sell themselves. In fact, the girl who dumped my cousin was a high commission sales woman. They were selfish and didn’t mind undercutting others to get what they wanted. And men loved them!

  33. dalrock says:

    Thanks J! I think the silver lining is if you are a man looking for quality it isn’t like every other man is being so rational. There should be some good finds others have overlooked if he is careful in his search.

  34. J says:

    Were young women more mature ~50 years ago? Probably, but partially because they had to be.

    Of course, they were. Men too. Easy sex has it easier to put off marriage. Marriage leads to kids, and kids make people responsible. Even as two settled, monogamous, home-owning DINKs, my husband and I were far less responsible than we are now as parents. In retrrospect, we were playing house, traveling and having fun.

  35. J says:

    I would suspect that in this SMP the best girls are overlooked.

    Tell me something. I know this is a strong matter of concern for you but I don’t know why. You’re in a strong marriage, so you aren’t looking personally and your kids are still pretty young. Why does this stuff bother you so?

  36. dalrock says:

    Why does this stuff bother you so?

    Which stuff?

  37. Lily says:

    Badger, I was going on what I see in the late 20s around me (and I live in a major metropolitan area), and some of them even mid 30s. If you asked any of them why they hadn’t bought property, I would doubt many had done any financial modelling on renting versus buying, they just see themselves in a having fun time stage of their lives.

    I didn’t claim it was a scientific study. I would be interested to know what sort of environment Jack lives in, how old he is and if he’d been seriously in the serious relationship/dating market at ages 25-30.

    There are, however, studies around this
    http://today.msnbc.msn.com/id/3088165

    I’d say the ages are a bit higher in my area but it’s like the statistic about Stockholm that was mentioned, it’s similar here, my area also has a higher average age of first born child so that makes sense. I’d imagine the same in NYC.

    ” Whereas if a man is smart and socially able, he won’t reach peak attractiveness until his late 20′s, more if you count advanced grad school. Even if he is interested in marriage there’s no reason for him to land his catch until he’s peaked his bait”
    There is, there will be more quality fish in the sea in his mid 20s than his is late 20s or early 30s.

  38. Lily says:

    @J
    “I would suspect that in this SMP the best girls are overlooked”
    I suspect this too.

  39. J says:

    The hypergamous carousel riders settling for betas stuff.

    I don’t mean this in a critical way. I’m just curious beause it’s just not something that’s on my husband’s radar or that I hear people referencing outside of the manosphere. Now I find it’s this huge concern for people, and I don’t quite understand why.

  40. Lily says:

    @J
    Check out the first reply on this post on Rivelino’s blog, from P. Caldwell
    http://alpharivelino.wordpress.com/2010/07/03/american-girls-slutty-in-their-20s-rueful-in-their-30s/

  41. Badger Nation says:

    Lily,

    “” Whereas if a man is smart and socially able, he won’t reach peak attractiveness until his late 20′s, more if you count advanced grad school. Even if he is interested in marriage there’s no reason for him to land his catch until he’s peaked his bait”

    There is, there will be more quality fish in the sea in his mid 20s than his is late 20s or early 30s.”

    You are correct…as women overplay their hand in their 20’s and then “settle,” there are men who do it too. The stereotypical form is to playboy it up until the worm turns (although they could also “omega it up” and do other things with their time), then “feel it’s time to get married” and hitch the next piece of arm candy…or to honestly shop for a wife after “sowing their oats.”

    Sounds like the carousel? I thought so too. Two differences: fair or not, male sexual history is not nearly as disqualifying to potential mates as female promiscuity; and it doesn’t hurt men’s life happiness because men don’t use vocabulary like “settling.” If she’s good enough, she’s good enough and life goes on – there’s not nearly the same hypergamous addiction to choosing with men.

  42. J says:

    That was an astounding post! It’s exactly what I’ve been trying to say since I started posting in the manosphere.

    I think what P. Caldwell had to say about light-heartedness was especially important to “girl game.” It’s what attracts men, I think more than anything else-even looks.
    Even at 50+, when I’m light-hearted and girly, men (my own age, of course) flock to me. Men love that crap. I wish I had known that in my serious, bookish 20s. Instead, I had to wait around for another serious, bookish introvert to notice me. ;-)

  43. dalrock says:

    @J
    The hypergamous carousel riders settling for betas stuff.

    Thanks for the clarification. I care more about the settling than I do about the carousel riding. I’m not sure if this comes through, but for example this post I was mainly just having some fun with. I even created a basement dwelling 35 year old beta with his mother fixing him a snack. What could be more fun than that?

    The reason the settling gets me is I don’t think these guys really understand what is happening. Men just don’t think this way, and the culture doesn’t warn them. If anything the culture sets them up to fall for it. If they did understand I really don’t think they would sign up for it. On top of that, the woman doing the settling is lying to herself about what she is doing. As I see it she has a character defect which prevents her from loving someone in a real, reciprocal relationship. But instead of recognizing this (and fixing it) she paints herself as the victim of circumstance. This is a prescription for heartache all around, including the kids. And aside from my own blog (and the comments here), I don’t recall anyone else calling them on this.

    The carousel riding is a lesser tragedy, but made worse by what appears to be the sheer numbers involved. I don’t see it ending well. The alphas and the carousel riders were the ones who signed up for it, but the betas will bear much of the price for these foolish choices. The clueless betas will marry these women and find that nothing can possibly make them happy. The less clueless ones who aren’t lucky enough to find a woman who didn’t indulge in the carousel will miss out on much of the beauty of life.

    At a larger level all of this is the core fabric of our society coming apart one stitch at a time. Normally my counsel regarding big scale disruption would be like I said to Rebellious Vanilla; take basic precautions, vote your conscience, and marry well and get on with the business of living. This is still my advice, but for many it simply won’t be an option.

  44. Obviously, I can’t answer for Dalrock’s thoughts, but this is what I though when I read your question, J:

    Thank Lori Gottlieb. I think that’s her name.

    The problem here of course is that as marriage rates drop, it causes more distress for women who want to be married than it does for men who, barring despicable anti-social character or extraordinary unattractiveness, can usually find some woman to provide all the benefits of marriage without the risk marital commitment brings with it.

    So Ms. Gottlieb, among others I’m sure, started giving voice to the thing that keeps women single (Dalrock calls it choice addiction), and started advising them to “settle” to get what they ultimately want, marriage and kids.

    What person of any gender wants to think they were the choice of last resort of a desperate person? So while women thought Lori Gottlieb was a genius relationship guru and flocked to buy her books, I’m sure many men thought this was just one more reason NOT to marry and American woman.

    I have a different take on it because where I come from it’s more like 50% of women aren’t married by 35 and most of them never will according to statisitics, and my eyes tell me it’s true. A large part of the problem is that “choice addiction” phenomena that keeps women from looking at transcedant values when looking for a mate.

    I posted once about the problem with black women and marriage, or lack thereof after ABC NEWS tackled the issue. If you look at the video link, these are very attractive women. One of them wanted to marry a man at least 6’5″. Are you kidding me? She basically wanted an NBA player. What were the chances of her accomplishing that? Is it any wonder she was still single?

    This is the kind of foolishness that keeps women from finding a good man.

  45. dalrock says:

    I don’t think I agree with your basic premise on what attracts men, but I do agree that men need to be careful not to overlook the good ones:

    You don’t want to be the male equivalent of the girl who walks past the nice guy betas to find the cad, only to complain about all guys being jerks.

  46. dalrock says:

    Well said Terry. All I would add is I don’t object to women with unrealistic standards becoming realistic. But they need to process it in the right way. If they approach marriage with the perspective that they were somehow cheated out of the perfect man they deserved, this is a huge issue. No one will be happy with this (man, woman, children). If she is able to find a man and fall in love with him after reading Gotlieb’s book, fantastic! But this isn’t how I see many women interpreting it.

  47. Lily says:

    @Badger Nation
    I agree with you, particularly in reference to alpha male, player types. Though P. Caldwell uses the settle word about men in that post I linked to.

    And I’m not sure on beta males either, if you talk to one in his mid 40s who has come into more financial success in that age range and in an affair, the language he uses in reference to his wife and his affair partner/s can be interesting.

    I also agree with you on the double standard on sexual history, but a 35 year old man who hasn’t got married, cannot expect to suddenly at that age be entitled to a woman 30+ to have significantly less partners than him. Yes maybe he’s had 20-30 and she’s had 10. But say 20-30 and ruling out anyone over say 2. He may luck out because there are women in that age range with low partner counts, but he can’t expect it, it’s just time and that’s just entitlement Of course, he may be able to land a woman significantly younger and marry her (and 10 years down the line she isn’t going to feel she grew older before her time and divorce him), in that case good luck to him.

    You may also get a real alpha playboy type who has had a partner count of 200 by that age, and I’m certainly not saying it’s unreasonable for him to expect to marry someone of less partner count than him, but again it would be completely unreasonable for him to feel entitled to a woman of very low partner count.

  48. JD says:

    Yup, this kind of thing is so true. Some men really dig the bad girls just as much as women are said to love bad boys!

    These women, for all their naughty sins of the past, were probably full of life, ambition, and just plain fun to be around. The men responded to that; the thing about nice good girls is – they CAN be rather boring for men. Most people want a little spice.

  49. Doug1 says:

    Lily–

    Any half way decent guy can avoid what you say by marrying at around 26 to a girl that age. There are plenty of girls around who did not slut it up when they were younger and are ready to get married, and less guys who are ready to get married at that age. It’s a buyer’s market.

    Girls that age are also a good bet for 34yo guys who are marriage minded. She is likely to remain real physically attractive to him for much longer, and if he lifts weights and stays fit he will be to her too. Additionally if he’s alpha enough to have success in the singles world, or to go from medium or sort of LTRs to the next one without much dry spell in but rather singles dating (sometimes of sluts) in between, he can enjoy that wild oats lifestyle before committing to one woman.

  50. Doug1 says:

    Lily

    because there are women in that age range with low partner counts

    You’re whole mindset is that guys are restricted to girls about their same age. They aren’t. Your whole thing about the relative rates of reaching various kinds of maturity, usually between girls and guys only reinforces this. Yea feminist doctrine is contrary, but then it’s wrong about most things.

  51. Lily says:

    @Doug
    ‘Whole mindset’? As you well know it’s completely ridiculous for you to project that onto me. I’ve never indicated anything to that effect. I have absolutely nothing against older men/younger women pairings. And as you know I personally in my early 20s, married someone 10 years older.

    In fact, it seems if anyone has a bee in their bonnet about older man/younger women pairings, it seems to be you (I’ve never said this because I don’t make a habit of getting personal on people). And it does not surprise me that you bring the word feminist into it. You’re reasonable a lot of the time, but I can have some sympathy with the people who mentioned you and meds. At least you haven’t mentioned divorce theft yet.

    And it’s reminding me of the recent conversation we had over at Athol Kay’s where Athol was talking about his marriage’s 4 year age difference and I said my current same age difference is working well for me (the age isn’t the reason it’s working so well at its core, but there are some benefits to the age thing). But you’re so intent on your older man/younger woman pairing that you don’t seem to realise that lots of people are perfectly happy in pairings that aren’t like that.

    My mention of age on this thread was mainly in relation to jack’s assertation that he has opted out because his options are previous cock carouselers or single mothers. This is a common complaint/reason not to get married I see in the manosphere. I still don’t know how old Jack is, but if it’s really the case for them that those are the only options, then IMO these guys should have had more options when they were younger.

  52. Badger Nation says:

    “The problem here of course is that as marriage rates drop, it causes more distress for women who want to be married than it does for men”

    There’s that phrase again – women who want to be married. The trouble is, a lot of those women are not fit to be married, for personality reasons or whatever. People like Lori Gottlieb, who is to put it quickly a nutcase. On the other hand, if a man wants to get married, he is most likely ready for the challenge.

    Marriage is a much more attractive lifestyle goal for women than men, we have covered why innumerable times in the manosphere so I will not rehash, but the extra benefits for women means more women want it – whether or not they are qualified for it.

    Why do I bring this up? Because Cosmo (“how to know when he’s going to propose!”) and other sources of pretty lies act as if all a woman has to do is find a man who wants to get married and the game is won. By selling an image than men are irrationally afraid of marriage (I’m quite rationally skeptical of marriage), they discourage ANY self-reflection by the reader that they might be part of the problem. They act as if if the girl wants to get married, her mental machinery is working properly and no further improvement is necessary, all that’s left is to manipulate the boy into it.

  53. I agree with you, Badger Nation. It was never my intention to say that because women want to be married, that they are entitled to it. I was simply laying out the facts as I see them. In fact, I know very few single women that are wife material, even among the Christian ones who want a husband.

    One of my frequent sayings is: “Most women don’t really want to be <i?wives. They just doen’t want to be single.”

    Your healthy skepticism is warranted.

  54. Lily says:

    Terry, your saying is so right. LOL.

    And also agreed with both of you (I think) that on the whole when men do get married, they are more likely to be more committed to it than the women are. It’s been a much bigger decision for them. I also read something interesting in an psychology journal about men and marriage and how one of the real fears men have is of their wives leaving them, which gave me something to ponder about on the whole divide of the sexes on here on the EPL movie.

  55. J says:

    Thanks, Lily (and S. Daed). Too funny!

  56. J says:

    I guess I don’t see 30+ women settling down with “betas” as settling as much as I see it as wising up. Besides, if you accept the idea that alphas don’t marry, can’t be monogamous, etc, who else but betas in there to marry? Marrying a beta isn’t “settling;” taking alpha abuse is.

  57. J says:

    I strongly agree that women should be “looking at transcedant values when looking for a mate.” If you find that in a man the last thing you are doing is settling.

  58. J says:

    I don’t think I agree with your basic premise on what attracts men,

    So, Dalrock, what do you think attracts men to women?

  59. J says:

    I also read something interesting in an psychology journal about men and marriage and how one of the real fears men have is of their wives leaving them, which gave me something to ponder about on the whole divide of the sexes on here on the EPL movie.

    Wow, that certainly explains a lot. I didn’t realize it was that common a fear.

  60. David Collard says:

    Let’s be honest. Men fear their wives leaving them partly because they fear having to run a house. Most wives still do jobs around the house that men would rather not do, and this gives women power over their husbands. I suspect many a man has been brought to heel by fear of being left holding the baby and doing the laundry.

    This is a particularly powerful threat when there are young children in the house; and perhaps explains why many husbands are very “beta” at that stage of a marriage.

  61. dalrock says:

    @David Collard
    Let’s be honest. Men fear their wives leaving them partly because they fear having to run a house.

    Nonsense.

  62. Badger Nation says:

    “Wow, that certainly explains a lot. I didn’t realize it was that common a fear.”

    J, you’ve commented on the carousel-settling issue and asked if it was all that prevalent. One could make that argument for other social blights too. To be short, it doesn’t matter how prevalent it is for men to make it a disincentive for men to marry.

    Example: only 25% of divorces involve alimony, which means maybe ~7% of marriages will end in a situation of a man paying his ex-wife a salary to not be his wife. However, you will find that men who are smart about marriage take this problem very seriously. Because it doesn’t really matter how prevalent it is – the acute risk that sticks in our minds is that we could conceivably wind up in a situation where we are paying money to someone who was “bored” with us so she slept with her boss or [fill in dramatic divorce story here].

    On the subject of fear of the walkaway wife – sometimes it goes the other direction, and men get married as “insurance” on their girlfriend because they don’t have enough faith in themselves to keep her without the legal bondage of matrimony. It doesn’t usually work out – as Roissy says, marriage is no break from the SMP.

  63. Badger Nation says:

    “Let’s be honest. Men fear their wives leaving them partly because they fear having to run a house. Most wives still do jobs around the house that men would rather not do, and this gives women power over their husbands. I suspect many a man has been brought to heel by fear of being left holding the baby and doing the laundry.”

    If that’s honesty, I’ll be honest and say I’m 6’5″, can bench-press 300 pounds and have Katy Perry on my speed-dial.

    The stay-at-home-mom movement and TV commercials have oversold housework to the Nth degree. They act as if it’s managing the Allied forces in World War II. It’s Parkinson’s Law, where work expands to fill the available time.

    “Holding the baby?” Give me a break, you know as well as I do that if wifey decides to leave she’ll be taking the baby with her and getting a court to back her up even if she’s doing the poolboy.

    Now don’t get me wrong – there are some men who can’t do housework. First, that’s pathetic, since as I said above it’s not a difficult task. Second, the wives have no right to complain, you know within three months of dating somebody if they can keep their place clean and tidy or not.

    A large reason men avoid housework is the control-freak management from the wife, who insists if it’s not done her way it’s not really done. Eventually the man gives up and feigns indigence. She does it her way and complains anyway.

  64. J says:

    Hi Terry,

    Thanks for your perspective. I’ve seen articles on both sides of the fence regarding Lori Gottlieb. The sex + feminists and the Jezzies see her as telling women to settle out of desperation, and they hate that. The manosphere guys see her as telling women to marry to betas without love after riding the carousel, and they hate that. I’ve seen a few interviews of Lori Gottlieb where she just seems to be preaching the same thing Dalrock is–don’t waste your life waiting a man who doesn’t exist to show up. That’s a rational idea if you ask me. I think people are more worried about how she comes off than what she actually saying.

  65. J says:

    Marriage is a much more attractive lifestyle goal for women than men, we have covered why innumerable times in the manosphere …

    I’ve read what the manosphere has to say about that, but maistream research says something different. There are far more health benefits, for example, to men than to women.

    Because Cosmo (“how to know when he’s going to propose!”) and other sources of pretty lies act as if all a woman has to do is find a man who wants to get married and the game is won.

    Cosmo?/i> You’re kidding, aren’t you?

    Cosmo?/i> is a bunch of depressing bullshit. When I was single, I’d buy it once a year when I needed an excuse to sit around in my pyjamas and eat ice cream all day. I found its worldview as about as realistic as my husband found bragging letters to Playboy.

    Cosmo?/i> exists to create insecuruties, and then sell cosmetics to allay the insecurities it creates. It gives you a little titillation between advertisements and even the articles are in effect advertisements.

  66. J says:

    @Badger

    J, you’ve commented on the carousel-settling issue and asked if it was all that prevalent.

    Actually I said i didn’t believe that the carousel thing was all that prevalent ,and that I was surprised at how common the male of being left was. But thanks for your post. It was interesting that you see that a lot of the male reaction is caution about what something you see as fairly uncommon.

    As to housework, it’s not hard, but it is repetitive, unsatisfying and unending. A work project has a defined goal and end point. When you reach that goal, you feel a sense of accomplishment. Not so with housework. When you serve a meal, it’s gone and you have to cook the next one. You wash a floor and the family tracks it up before it’s even dry. As you put away the last of the kids’ freshly laundered socks, the husband throws his dirty ones on the floor. The job never ends and house never looks like it should because people are living it in. There is little sense of accomplishment. That’s why it makes women so crazy.

    To top it off, women still spend a lot of time on housework despite labor saving devices. Yeah, washing clothes used to be harder before modern washing machines and dryers, but today people have more clothes. While I don’t have to boil water over a wood fire to do laundry, the kids change clothes so much that I spend a day a week on laundry. While it’s easier to cook now than it was 100 years ago, the family expects high quality, tasty meals and I want them to have good nutrition. I don’t cook out of cans or make microwave dinnners, so yeah it takes time. It’s not as easy as you might think.

    And I do agree with David that men are afraid of being stuck with kids. Every health issue I’ve had since the kids came along kicks off the anxiety in my husband of having to raise kids alone. Shit, I now eat Brussel sprouts because my husband fears raising kids alone.

    Finally, what is Katy Perry really like?

  67. Badger Nation says:

    “Cosmo? You’re kidding, aren’t you? Cosmo is a bunch of depressing bullshit. ”

    It is. And it’s on the newsstand in every supermarket checkout line I’ve ever been in, and in the bag of most sub-25 year olds I’ve met. And nobody ever went broke underestimating the intelligence of the American people. It has the remarkable ability to exhibit misandry* and misogyny at the same time.

    Whenever I read an online dating profile where a woman lists Cosmopolitan as a regular read, I immediately drop her from my potentials list.

    *BTW, misandry STILL comes up as a “misspelling” on my Firefox spellcheck. Argh!

  68. Badger Nation says:

    “Finally, what is Katy Perry really like?”

    Fake.

  69. dalrock says:

    *BTW, misandry STILL comes up as a “misspelling” on my Firefox spellcheck. Argh!

    Strange. My Firefox handles it just fine. I’m using 3.6.10 on Ubuntu.

  70. dalrock says:

    @J
    There are far more health benefits, for example, to men than to women.

    I’m obviously on the pro marriage side, and haven’t studied this issue in any detail but I am skeptical of that finding. There is a sampling bias in which men get married. Healthy men are much more likely to be married than sickly ones. I would bet there is some similar bias in divorce. Unless they have carefully adjusted for that I would take the study with a big grain of salt. For example, you always hear about the flu studies on seniors which show how many lives vaccinations save each year. A doctor had the bad taste to factor in the fact that those receiving the shots weren’t randomly chosen. Those who were not healthy enough to receive a vaccination, or to leave the house and get one are automatically filtered out. Once they took this into account the benefit evaporated.

  71. Badger Nation says:

    “And I do agree with David that men are afraid of being stuck with kids.”

    They said that Barbie saying “math is hard” discouraged little girls from trying in math. So are we to be surprised men might show solo-parenting anxiety when a ridiculously common sitcom and family movie plot line is “Dad being left alone with the kids?” You’ve seen it – mom has to go away to shop/work/see relatives/whatever. Dad says “everything will be fine!” and is hit with a hundred hijinks and problems that strain his hairline. A deus ex machina miracle climax gets everything cleaned up moments before Mom comes back into the house, where she either thinks nothing has happened (laugh track) or winks to the camera knowing what madness went down and how she can deal with it every day while he is flummoxed (laugh track). It’s as if the scripts are written by that crazy woman who runs the “Train Your Husband” blog.

    Come to think of it, I can’t think of a non-flawed/non-dumbass father on TV these days. Was Cliff Huxtable the last strong, positive TV father role model, one who wasn’t totally humiliated as a regular part of the plot?

    This happens in ads too, an extension of the oft-discussed “mom runs the family” meme.

    The last movie I can remember where that didn’t happen was Uncle Buck – in fact Buck steps into the parenting role very naturally and cracks down on his niece’s bad-boy boyfriend in a way her beta father would never do.

    (Another topic for another time is the impression television gives that large families are hopelessly out of control, flattering the LA-and-SF sensibility of not having kids or few if you do.)

  72. Hope says:

    Off-topic but I am very curious. J, Dalrock, etc. who have had boys: did you have the circumcision procedure done? Why or why not?

  73. Keoni Galt says:

    And I do agree with David that men are afraid of being stuck with kids.

    No, DAVID is afraid to be stuck with the kids.

    Most Men who are Fathers that I know of wish they had as much time with their kids as their wives get.

    Every health issue I’ve had since the kids came along kicks off the anxiety in my husband of having to raise kids alone. Shit, I now eat Brussel sprouts because my husband fears raising kids alone.

    So you’re saying he couldn’t care less about your health and well being until you had his kids?

  74. David Collard says:

    Uncle Buck is an impressive character, but he is also a “race-fixer” and a bit of a loser. Cosby’s Huxtable was OK I suppose, but he was a wimp in respect of his wife, and helped her humiliate a traditional young man in one episode for not being a feminist.

  75. David Collard says:

    I am 55 and an Australian. I was not brought up to be a housewife, but to be a breadwinner. I know that women find housework boring, but not as boring as men find it. I could get by if I had to without my wife to run the house, but I would find it hard and a bit humiliating.

    Marriage is a practical relationship, and many men do worry that they will be left “holding the baby”. I don’t think I am worse morally than most men, perhaps a bit older and more traditional. Or just honest.

    It is not minding the children. I like that. I like children. It is fear of the tedium of things like doing laundry.

  76. dalrock says:

    @J
    As to housework, it’s not hard, but it is repetitive, unsatisfying and unending. A work project has a defined goal and end point. When you reach that goal, you feel a sense of accomplishment. Not so with housework. When you serve a meal, it’s gone and you have to cook the next one.

    The biggest success of feminism has been convincing women how hard their lot in life is. Everything men or women do around the house is repetitive. Mowing the lawn doesn’t get any more interesting the more you do it. Neither does changing the oil, digging post holes, killing hornets nests, whatever. I don’t cook as often as my wife but I have to say I find cooking for other people extremely satisfying.

  77. J says:

    So you’re saying he couldn’t care less about your health and well being until you had his kids?

    No, not at all.

  78. You know, David, my husband is only 37 and our relationship falls along traditional roles as well. I don’t think he would be afraid or unable to handle the house if I was away for a bit, but when I’m here, it’s mine. All mine for the most part.

    It’s how he was raised, and I don’t mind taking care of him or the house at all. It’s how I was raised even though my mom worked. She recently tried to get my dad to do a load of laundry and he replied by saying, “I wouldn’t mind doing it one time to help you out, but I know if I do it this once, you’ll expect me to do it again. Then we’ll have a problem, so no.”

    My dad, like my husband, doesn’t see much point in beating around the bush. Much better to lay your cards on the table and avoid confusion. I think many men and women today believe extreme sensitvity and ambiguity are easier on their partner’s feelings.

    So long as my husband shows he cares about me, which he does, and we laugh a lot, which we do, I have learned to appreciate the defined roles and direct approach much better than the alternative.

  79. dalrock says:

    I think Roissy is mostly right on what attracts men to women. Obviously for LTRs and even more so for marriage other traits matter a great deal.

    I think it is easy for women to mistake being hit on more or less for being more or less attractive, when often the variation they are noticing is the calculation of likely success by the men. My wife gets hit on much more when she has our daughter with her. Guys say creative things like “Single moms are heroes”, and “I love kids”. They know single moms are easy, maybe even desperate. She is just as hot the rest of the time but they know they don’t have a shot with her.

  80. J says:

    The biggest success of feminism has been convincing women how hard their lot in life is.

    Actually, I think hatred of housework predates feminism. My mom, who is in her eighties, was no fan of it either.

    Everything men or women do around the house is repetitive.

    That’s true. I think most people like a mix of tasks. I enjoy creative cooking, but I also like my paid work. My husband loves yardwork because it’s a change from his job. He likes the tediousness and mindlessness of it because it’s low pressure compared to work.

  81. J says:

    My wife gets hit on much more when she has our daughter with her.

    Wow. Times really are changing! There was a period of my life when my kids were small that I thought I was basically done as an attractive women because NO ONE ever hit on me. Then the kids went to school, and I found myself doing errands alone. Men began paying attention again. I assumed that a wedding ring and two kids under five was a major turn-off.

  82. J says:

    LOL.

    Not surprised. I understand though that she once kissed a girl and she liked it. I thought that was the sure sign of a winner in the SMP.

  83. David Collard says:

    Terry

    I don’t think my wife really minds. She has been sweeping the floor as I write here, but soon I will be outside mowing the lawn.

    Defined roles create stability and avoid arguments. I earn a good living. My wife works too, but I tend to focus on earning money and she focuses on keeping the house running.

    I do dishes, I used to change nappies, and sometimes I vacuum. But there are some jobs I really don’t want to do, and I do refuse to do them, like your Dad.

    I could survive without my wife, with help from my teenage daughter. My son is only young and he would need to be looked after a lot. I have had to think about all this, because my wife sometimes threatens to leave. She doesn’t mean it. She is still here. But I have had to call her bluff. I think she realises that her threat carries little weight these days.

    I can’t remember if I have ever done a load of laundry. I would if my wife were sick, but she has always been healthy. When she was in hospital, having our children, my mother-in-law ran a couple of loads. She also cooked me dinner. She is a very traditional woman.

  84. J says:

    Yes, my husband wanted the boys to look like him” and we believe that there are health benefits. My cousin, who is a doctor, also believes that despite the way the APA changes it’s mind about routine circumcision, there are benefits–the prevention of penile cancer for one. Yes, penile cancer is rare, but google “penile cancer images.” It’ll turn your stomach but make you pro-circ.

  85. J says:

    A deus ex machina miracle climax gets everything cleaned up moments before Mom comes back into the house,….

    Hey, I’ve dealt with situations IRL where the deus ex machina didn’t show up. It was sad…

    It’s as if the scripts are written by that crazy woman who runs the “Train Your Husband” blog.

    You can do that???

    Srsly, I do agree that dads look like idiots too much on TV. Raising kids is a two person job, and there are things men contribute that are indispensible to kids. There is a whole mindset that men convey to kids that women just don’t. I’m a pretty tough cookie and as a teacher I could control a study hall full of 200 kids, but my own kids …somehow I’m softer and more nurturant. Dad cracks the whip, teaches the work ethic, encourages the taking of reasonable risks, reins in the masculine energy. I could do better than most as a single mom. but I just wouldn’t want to.

  86. J says:

    I should add that my cousin did the circumcisions. They were freehand rather than Gomco clamp or Plastibell circs. The Gomco clamp and Plastibell procedures are safer and take less skill. Freehand is less painful and causes less tissue damage. That ugly brown scar doesn’t develop, and I was told by my cousin that the nerves re-route themslves so that there is little or no loss of sensation. When my son was in the NICU, I witnessed some regular circs. The freehand procedure was quicker and resulted in very little crying as opposed to the others.

  87. mjay says:

    Men fear their wives leaving them after financially gutting them and screwing up their children.

    Unfortunately, interest in male self-preservation is interpreted as selfishness, and a man’s love for his children is interpreted as a desire to avoid child support.

    No men fear “running a house”. Men fear losing a house, IRA, and years of earnings (child support is taxable for the payer, but tax-free for the recipient) and most of all their children in the event of divorce.

  88. TMQ says:

    “Besides, if you accept the idea that alphas don’t marry, can’t be monogamous, etc, who else but betas in there to marry?”

    I agree with you, but there’s something you’re forgetting: a woman’s fertility and attractiveness doesn’t last forever, it slowly starts to fade at 25, then rapidly degrades once she hits 30. When you look at it from the Beta male’s point of view: a 35 year old women is like an used car, with holes in the seats and 80,000 miles on the odometer, that’s still being sold at full price. Some men might get desperate enough for this used car, but most would rather buy a new car or use public transportation (pornography, masturbation) if they can’t afford it.

    If a women is truly serious about marriage, they should try to market themselves at an early age. Ignore the alpha that won’t marry you, and give yourself to the beta male while you still have that new car smell.

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  94. Emily says:

    I’m 33. I’ve always wanted to get married. It’s always been my dream, it’s what I’ve always wanted, and it’s painful for me to know that my chances are so slim now that I’m 33.

    Why haven’t I ever married?

    Because I’ve never been pretty enough to attract a man. I’m nice and I’m humble and I’m good and I’m kind and if any man ever wanted to marry me I’d be a faithful and good wife and I’d just love him and love him and love him so much. But I’m 50 pounds overweight and I’m not pretty enough, and I’ve struggled and struggled to lose the weight because then maybe a man would want to love me, but I haven’t been able to, and I’ve struggled, and now I’m 33 and I’m single, and everyone just assumes that it’s because I had something wrong with me. I’m just not pretty enough though, and that’s the problem. No man wants a woman who’s overweight and not pretty. I’m trying to come to terms with the reality that marriage and children just wasn’t in the cards for me, because I’m just not thin enough or pretty enough to be wanted.

    I don’t even want an “alpha male,” I just want someone who is nice and kind. I think a beta-male would even be the ideal, as our personalities would be more in sync, but beta males certainly don’t want me. It isn’t just the “alpha males” who’ve shunned me, it’s all males. If you aren’t stunningly pretty as a woman, then just forget it, no man wants you. Any man who’s ever looked at me or given me the time of day has plainly let me know that he was “settling for less” because I’m overweight. I’m not even all that overwhelmingly ugly, but I’m 50 pounds overweight and I’ve struggled to lose that weight for years, and nobody’s ever, ever, ever wanted me.

    I know I don’t stand a chance to marry anyone until I can lose the weight. I know that I stand even less of a chance now that I’ve let myself get to the age of 33 without losing the weight. I just wish someone would look past those extra 50 pounds and see how kind and good I can be and how much I’d love him, but nobody can look past those extra 50 pounds.

    So…that’s how a humble and kind woman who spent her life dreaming of being a loving wife and mother can end up single in her thirties.

  95. Anon says:

    Welcome to the reality of 80-90% of men, thems the breaks honey.

  96. A Lady says:

    Emily, I call BS. Overweight women get married allatime. The chubalub is just your particular excuse for not being married.

  97. terri says:

    Overweight women get married allatime.

    Yes, they do. Much more than what you read in this corner of the ‘net would indicate. But they really do get married quite often. As for whether or not you’re pretty Emily, if you mean that you’re just average looking, well those women get married all the time, too.

  98. Bryan says:

    Emily, go to your doctor and ask for Dexedrine (ask for it by name), tell him that you are concerned about your weight and it is causing you depression and other issues and that you would rather take the minimal risks associated with Dexedrine (it’s an amphetamine, so the main risks would be addiction if you abuse it, or possible amphetamine overdose and amphetamine induced psychosis if you take too high of a dose in any one instance) than remain in a high risk category for diabetes, heart disease, etc. Also, diet and exercise will help greatly… If you take dexerdine, combined with diet and exercise, you could probably lose 10-20 pounds per month.

    If your weight is really the issue then that will deal with it…

    However, I almost have to cry “foul” on that, because there are plenty of big guys out there and they would probably be glad to get attention from any woman, even one that is 50 pounds overweight. If you’re expecting George Clooney then dream on, if you’re okay with “mr average” or “somewhat chubby” then you can probably find one of those men tomorrow…

  99. Alex says:

    Emily , stay away from the doctors , change your lifestyle . Simple if you can , thats the hard bit .A lot of you guys have not lived yet . The girl will get what she wants if she can meet someone halfway . We have a problem much the same in New Zealand . The girls go to uni and the men to Australia in bigger numbers . The girls feel that they because of their BA,s they think they are smarter than guys like their brothers because they are better paid . There is the disconnect .This is not a good situation for our country . Looks like its not just here .

  100. P Ray says:

    Emily,
    you might simply be after the men all other women are after.
    Here’s the thing:
    Just ’cause you have sex with that type of guy, doesn’t mean that guy is going to get married to you.
    The problem is, many women in your situation, think that having sex with an alpha guy means they are in a relationship, and therefore any other guy is simply not worthy of them (Given the fact that I’m a virgin … you wouldn’t be worthy of me, but I digress…)
    Do you see the problem?
    Try giving the guys other women are not after, a chance to interact with you (in a way that moves towards romance – since women do not date their friends – hence why Let’s Just Be Friends is such an insult to any guy keen on a girl).
    Having lived in NZ for some time, the piss-poor attitudes of girls who knocked back decent guys all the time, does not bode well for the future.
    Girls going to uni is not the problem – NZ suffers from that disease of the Anglosphere, where the women want things both ways:
    They want chivalry, but they also want to be seen as strong and independent.
    And if you are not the guy they want, you will get taken for a ride,
    to end with the words “You made the mistake of thinking this friendship was more than it was”.
    Seen it happen to others so many times.

  101. Bruce Kotter says:

    I am interested in maybe meeting. Or chatting

    Sincerely
    Bruce. Kotter

  102. greenlander says:

    Unfortunately, Ms. Linehan marked her video as ‘private’ so it’s no longer accessible.

    Fortunately, some good soul had the foresight to archive it. For the record, Ms. Linehan isn’t a warpig. I’m no saint, so I have to admit that I’ve bumped uglier girls. I’d hit Ms. Linehan if it was easy enough… but it would have to be a ‘drinks only’ date: I wouldn’t take her out for dinner.

    Here’s the new link for anyone that wants to hear the corny song.

  103. 8oxer says:

    Emily:

    Aside from all the other good advice people have given, you need to not come across as so desperate. Just reading your article gives me a picture of a low-value individual.

    Start working out and changing your diet on your own, but also, find a hobby. Preferrably one with a traditional feminine value. Go to community college and enroll in a cooking or singing course (often one can sit in very cheaply for no credit). If you’re too fat, it’s probably because you eat the usual crap food one finds in the processed/canned/frozen section of the store or eats at fast food joints. Cooking is a great skill for both men and women. Singing will give you control over your voice which is often a very useful way to make yourself more attractive to quality men.

    Most importantly, don’t worry so much about being single. It’s a paradox, but those women who are most desperate to find a man rarely do. The desperation drives their prey away. It’s a natural human reaction to flee when chased, you know. If a woman comes on too strong, I naturally start wondering what’s wrong with her.

    Watch what some of your more successful women friends do when they flirt and practice these things on your own.

    Don’t worry too much about alpha v. beta stuff. Those are broad and general indicators. Approach men who you think would make a good mate, and don’t sweat the fact that they don’t seem like “leaders”. In the old days, most of the alpha males were manufactured by their wives, who lobbied and manipulated behind the scenes on their behalf, and rode the coattails of their husbands to fabulous success as a result. Find a decent man, and make him a winner. This is what your grandmothers did before feminism, and older women will be able to explain what I mean if you don’t understand it.

    Regards, Boxer

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  105. LiveFearless says:

    Aaron Clarey has found Jodi on YouTube. She’s not singing, but she tells all:
    http://wp.me/P3P5mL-em

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