Next Phase of the Hypergamous Arms Race: Revenge of the Nerds?

The most intriguing part of the current stage in the sexual revolution is how open many carousel riders are about their plan to snare a hapless beta after a decade or so of screwing the kind of men they really like.  When you are planning on tricking someone, a little secrecy is typically helpful.  But this is the worst kept secret on the internet. Anyone familiar with Citizen Renegade’s blog is at this point probably thinking of GBFM’s famous line: “younger, hotter, tighter, and free”.

lozzlzlzlzl!

We are already hearing anecdotal evidence that the hapless betas in question are starting to look less fondly on marriage.  Certainly those carousel riders who really want to eventually get married are taking a significant risk.  They are betting that they can play by a different set of rules than the women 10-15 years older than them did and still end up married at the same rates by their mid 30s.

But as I pointed out in Grey Divorce Part II, the data isn’t yet in on how this will turn out.  We can see a significant reduction in the percentage of women currently marrying in their twenties, but we don’t know how this will play out when they are in their 30s.  Will the betas now loudly complaining on the internet about being taken for granted follow through on their threat of a great marriage strike?  Or will they blink at the last minute and decide that marrying an, er, slightly used former hottie beats remaining alone?  Or will it matter anyway since the guys who are most bitter probably aren’t the betas these women have in mind?  Could the great salmon run of carousel chasers finally returning to beta providers end in disaster and failure to breed?

Carousel rider returning to beta provider to spawn.

My guess is there will be a measurable impact but that we won’t see the kinds of dire predictions being made around the manosphere come true.  Like the picture above, the run might not be as impressive as usual, but my prediction is it will still happen.

But salmon face a unique problem.  Their route and timing are known in advance, and this makes them easy prey.

If I were a bitter beta I might decide I had a different choice other than “Take it or leave it”.  He knows women of a certain age and a history of promiscuity are going to be looking for a sucker nice guy like him to marry and settle down with.  What if he decides to con the conwoman?  All he has to do is what comes naturally to him.  He may want to learn a little game to make him seem more interesting, but he doesn’t have to move to full alpha status.

All he has to do is put himself out there in places where these women are looking for marks, and look like a better mark than the others.  Since some of the remaining betas will be manning the picket line and the alphas are busy with the new crop of carousel riders, this probably won’t be too hard.  Then he just strings her along for a while, or maybe strings several along all the while talking the provider talk and enjoying the ride.  And since she is in full blown (pardon the pun) bag a husband mode, she’s going to be giving him the best sex she can to seal the deal.  After a while she’s bound to get wise to the jig, but then another salmon carouseler should be jumping into his mouth bed to fill the void.

I’ve been mulling this possibility over for a few days, and then just today saw a comment over on Hooking Up Smart which initially suggested to me that this is already happening.

I have a friend who dated a guy who constantly talked about kids & types of strollers, invited her to meet his parents, shared his hopes & dreams, she knew most of his friends. They dated for 3 months before she realized he was doing the same thing with 2 other girls. His parents had met literally so many of his “girlfriends,” they were tired of it.

It turns out the woman in the quote was in her mid twenties, but the basic strategy would seem the same. There is some danger that the Beta will fall for the carouseler or end up getting her pregnant and having to pay child support, so this strategy isn’t without risk to him. Also, some of those salmon won’t be carousel riders planning to con a beta but simply career minded women who lost track of time, or younger women thinking they just found the one alpha who wants to marry.

Whether this scenario turns out to be common or not I can predict with some confidence that like the previous rounds of the sexual revolution there will unfortunately be few winners and plenty of misery to go around.  Part of the intent of my blog and many of those on my blogroll is to help ensure that better choices are made by all parties today to avoid heartbreak in the future.  But all in all there is at least a little beauty to the thought of the written-off beta mark who has the last laugh on the carousel rider.

Salmon photo by Zhans33.  Bear photo by Azov.

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122 Responses to Next Phase of the Hypergamous Arms Race: Revenge of the Nerds?

  1. Susan Walsh says:

    The salmon analogy and the accompanying images are just brilliant – and hilarious!

  2. dalrock says:

    Thanks Susan!

    I was beginning to wonder if this came across differently than I had intended. Plenty of hits but before yours no comments.

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  4. Deansdale says:

    “Whether this scenario turns out to be common”
    I wish it would but I think there are too many men who will not be able to ‘resist’. There are white knights, haters of game, those who think they found the one exception, and those who doesn’t think like that but figure that even a carouseler is better than being alone.

  5. dalrock says:

    There are white knights, haters of game, those who think they found the one exception, and those who doesn’t think like that but figure that even a carouseler is better than being alone.

    I agree.

    But the goal of the bear isn’t to stop the run from being successful. He doesn’t worry at all if some slip past. He’s not guarding the gate; he just wants to eat his fill.

    The problem the carousel rider has is fourfold though:

    1) She’s locked into this particular path if she wants to marry. She can’t go back and remake her past choices.
    2) She’s made a sexual living out of being conned. The Alpha chasers are addicted to the idea of the perfect man, even if that image is an illusion. A big part of game is allowing the woman to do what she wants to do while making some bogus justification to herself.
    3) These guys won’t have to pretend to be Beta. They will be the real deal.
    4) Time is running out.

  6. mormonmen says:

    This is pure diabolical genius. I’m sure there will be plenty of men willing to be the bear and take advantage of the migration.

  7. hambydammit says:

    Hmmm… Here’s another angle. Let’s go with the assumption that (as Susan Walsh often points out) there is a certain personality type that ends up as a carousel rider. Presumably, there are lots of girls of all ages who are not this type. Add to this the fact that men retain value longer than women. So, when this crop of Betas hits their late 30s, what’s to stop them from snagging the younger non-carousel riders of the next generation?

    So, picture this: Late 30s Betas who are familiar with the Game, know they don’t have it, but also know the carousel strategy. When it’s time to marry, they snag the 25-28 year old 5s and 6s who aren’t riding the carousel. The mid to late 30s carousel riders are left with a choice: Grab an alpha, suffer through cheating, neglect, and general jerkiness, or grab a 45-50 year old divorced man who’s making child support payments and dealing with custody bullshit. Betas FTW. Carousel Cuties lose. And everyone collectively chuckles at the plan gone horribly awry.

  8. (R)Evolutionary says:

    HambyDammit, I think your analysis is crisp and workable. This idea seems to be similar to one I’ve been working out on my own. I’ve got plenty of both alpha & beta tendencies, good natural instincts that get subverted by beta-ization. Best thing I could ever do is study game. So I’m now thinking about the way you articulated this vision, which is a great road map.

    Here are a few issues to work through:

    1. How does one reliably tell which are carousel riders and which are not. A gray fuzzy border exists between the two groups; the line is not sharply demarcated.

    2. Of the non-carouselers, which ones stay off the carousel out of moral, ethical, and intellectual reasons (desirable), and which ones stay off the carousel because they have either have little to no sex drive, are not sex-positive, or are emotionally damaged in some way. (definitely undesirable.)

    3. What are the best venues to naturally screen out for carouselization, realizing they will be local demographic-specific?
    (side note I love the plasticity of the English language; it’s fun to bend these newish concepts around new words & work them to maximum grammatical advantage.)

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  10. Matt says:

    Hmmmm, I’m 52 and would like to have a family. In realistic terms that means finding someone under 35 (let’s say 32 to make the math trivial). I would make a fantastic husband, I’m just a failure at playing the bad boy asshole that women seem to be attracted to. So now I need to figure out how to leverage the situation to be in my favor.

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  12. Marcos says:

    Actually, I’ve done this for the last six years or so. Dalrock is correct, there really isn’t any challenge to it at all. I’ve shagged quite a few over-30 year olds in that time. To be honest, I’m a pretty good-looking guy(7 to 8 range, I’m told I’m cute a lot) and minimally tall (5’11” barefoot – taller with shoes). So maybe I’m not a fair test case.

    In any case, it’s really a matter of positioning yourself into a social group where a lot of those women socialize. Usually the uber-professional crowd. The average looks are women who were in the 6 to 8 range but over-played their hands expecting Mr. Perfect to marry them. Most of the women were what I would call “A la carte” feminists, too. About 40% of my marks were the bitter type. You know, angry that life didn’t turn out like that little fairytale in her head. Others were not so bitter but more focused on just finding a decent guy. These girls were the ones who just plum forgot about marriage or kept pushing it to the back burner because they focused on career or didn’t want to deal with the tough world of the marriage market thinking it would “happen to them when they least expect it.” Yep, that old canard. The Dane Cook of all dating advice.

    If you’re not into social groups per se, then you could go the mass marketing route: Online Dating. Trust me, it’s just as effective. No matter what lake you find them in, the bait is the same. When they ask you (Trust me – they will! Several times) why you’re 34, 35 whatever years old and never married you just take a moment and say, “Candidly? I haven’t found the right girl. I’m a traditional man and was raised to believe the man takes care of all the bills and financial responsibility. You know, where the woman doesn’t mind taking care of the home. I don’t mind that a woman has a job/career or whatever…In fact that’s great! But I don’t want her to feel that she has to work. That’s my job. Also, I’ve been working all these years to get to a position financially to where I can afford the lifestyle my kids deserve and now I’m ready to focus on the right girl and settle down. You’d be surprised how hard it is to find a woman who wants to have kids and settle down these days.” Say this very relaxed, matter-of-factly tone and it will work. Especially if she’s over 32. Result: deer in headlights. And they buy it. Wanna know why?

    Because what I say above taps into the psyche of all carouseler women:
    1) These women really don’t want to work for a living – they just want something to occupy their time.
    2) These women want a man to take care of all their financial needs/wants without them ever having to care about pricetags.
    3) Of course, her biological clock is at the 11th hour and 59th minute.
    4) The last reason she’ll buy it: hope.

    Remember, the best, quickest way to make money is to sell hope or dreams to an unsuspecting public. For a single woman in her 30s, hope is all she has keeping her going.

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  14. Saj says:

    Sigh that’s so sad. Stringing women along at their last chance to have a family just because you are bummed out you weren’t able to get as much action as a younger lad? The punishment does not fit the crime.

    Guys who prey on women and it doesn’t matter if you define yourself as Alpha or Beta or Omega. Guys who prey on women period are not quality. You can justify it however you want of well she is looking to prey on US so we must strike first! Ok you are aware of that and you step aside and focus on the ones who don’t.

    Your prize isn’t a carefull and selective girl in her 20’s because she is waiting to commit to a guy with a good heart. Those guys don’t prey on women just to get a little action and feel a sense of vindication. Alpha, Beta, Omega however you define yourself is just a smokescreen for what you really aspire to be which is a predator.

    This comes from a 20 something who didn’t ride the carousal and married the hot guy with the good heart. The same guy who treated ex older girlfriends who did have promiscuous histories with love and respect.

  15. Bernd says:

    “The punishment does not fit the crime.”

    You’ve hit the nail on the head on why this whole bear-hunting-salmon idea gives me the creeps. I too feel a bit bitter about having been not even on the long-range radar back when I was at my horniest in my 20s, and it’s a sort of guilty pleasure imagining how one can exact one’s revenge on those cruel, evil wimminz who’ve caused you so much hurt in the past.

    But here’s the problem: for almost all men in this position, there is no single woman one can point out as having been personally cruel. They didn’t single us out for coordinated rejection, they didn’t deliberately set out to cause us the hurt, and most importantly of all: we would have done exactly the same had we had the sexual/relational opportunities that those women had.

    And if we’re at least a bit honest with ourselves, back when we were younger ourselves, we just weren’t all that attractive! Just as we like to belly-ache about how women waste their youth fucking around with the alphas, we are just as guilty of wasting our youth on feeling sorry for ourselves and being psychologically lazy in not getting our shit together, in being too afraid of rejection. That’s my demon anyway. [Forgive my use of invective, I believe it's idiomatic in this context.]

    It’s only by a small mercy of nature that we get a second chance at happiness in that men age like wine, whilst women age like grape juice: our overall attractiveness peaks much, much later than a woman’s does.

    That said, I have little sympathy for anyone who thinks the piper doesn’t ever need to be paid. But actually then, I guess these groups are a perfect match. They’re all cons, so let them keep themselves bussy in a giant orgy of “Let’s pull a fast one on Joey” (Games People Play jargon).

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  18. Gunn says:

    @Saj and Bernd

    You’re only seeing half the story. When one of these washed up ex-sluts does find a beta to hook her claws into, how long do you think the marriage will last? Who will end up with all the marital assets, and who will end up living in a studio flat somewhere looking forlornly at pictures of their kids (who stand a good chance of not being his because his wife cuckolded him)?

    Men and women both have to make a conscious decision about their lives and what they hope to achieve. The difference between these party girls and the beta men is exemplified by the story of the ant and the grasshopper. At the 11th hour, the woman who has a change of heart is suddenly to be seen as a poor widdle wictim of the cruel beta who uses her like she has used countless men in her time?

    Sorry, I don’t have any sympathy for this perspective. What you’re both doing is an attempt at feebly shaming beta guys into going along with the script that these women wanted to follow from their 20s. That the con-artist is conned should be seen for what it is: poetic justice.

  19. TMQ says:

    “Sigh that’s so sad. Stringing women along at their last chance to have a family just because you are bummed out you weren’t able to get as much action as a younger lad? The punishment does not fit the crime.”

    See, what women fail to grasp is the concept of cause and effect. Females decided to ignore the “beta” who will commit, because he doesn’t make her gina tingle, so she can go after the “alpha” who will not commit to them (and why should they, you freely give it up to them at no cost, and there’s always another delusional young girl ready). This leads to being dumped when you attractiveness starts to wane, and you then try to market your damaged goods to the very same men you mocked and laughed at publicly, all because your biological clock is ticking. This shows no respect for your unsuspected victim, as all you did was give away your most fertile years for free, and expect him to pay FULL PRICE for your loose, dried up vagina.

    I’m sorry, but there’s nothing sad about this. If you choose to be a slut and piss away your most fertile years, you must suffer the consequences. I bet you wouldn’t give 2 shits if this story was about women preying on men.

  20. scatmaster says:

    Excellent rebuttal Gunn.

  21. Lily says:

    I can’t speak for the others but I certainly would have the same opinion on a woman preying on men as a man preying on women. A predator is a predator, regardless of gender.

    This whole women slutting it up in their twenties and settling in their thirties is so overblown in the ‘manosphere’, it’s ridiculous. As is this line of this huge line of betas ready to commit at 25.

    Marcos’s strategy, he’s specifically going up after one woman who personally hurt him (although that wouldn’t be particularly healthy), he’s doing this strategy on women he doesn’t know, and he doesn’t know how they acted when they were younger. He himself says that some of them were just focused on their careers. He is knowingly conning them out of the last of their childbearing years although he doesn’t know they have personally treated any man in the past. What for? Easy sex? Self validation? If he’s not interested in them, then why doesn’t he just focus on younger women? Nothing stopping him. After all, he’s so attractive.

    I had/have a lot of support for MRA, but when I see posts like this, it takes it away. This is a blog that supposedly supports Christian values etc but here we have pure evil.

  22. dalrock says:

    @Lily
    This whole women slutting it up in their twenties and settling in their thirties is so overblown in the ‘manosphere’, it’s ridiculous.

    Agreed. I’ve said this several times, and backed it up with data. These women are a distinct minority, at least in the US.

    As is this line of this huge line of betas ready to commit at 25.

    Not true. The same data which proves your previous statement right proves this one wrong. Again I’m only familiar with data for the US, so it might be different in the UK. Weren’t you married at around that age though? Was your former husband considerably older than 25 when you married? I was thinking he was around 25, but could well have it wrong.

    Marcos’s strategy, he’s specifically going up after one woman who personally hurt him (although that wouldn’t be particularly healthy), he’s doing this strategy on women he doesn’t know, and he doesn’t know how they acted when they were younger.

    I can’t speak for Marco, but I think you have his motivations all wrong. He is doing the male equivalent of following his tingle. Under the new rules, if it feels good, do it. Right? He is lying to them, but he isn’t making an old rule style commitment (getting engaged or married). So his lie is around the order of a woman lying about her partner count when marriage isn’t formally on the table.

    He is knowingly conning them out of the last of their childbearing years although he doesn’t know they have personally treated any man in the past.

    I have no idea how long he is able to carry off the charade, but I’m guessing it is more like weeks or months rather than years. So they conned themselves out of a decade, a decade and a half, he used a few more months. My personal observation only but in the 3 examples I’ve seen of women marrying around 35 (none of them carousel riders) 2 are definitely not having children and the third looks less likely to with each passing year. In the end it tends to be their career taking priority which runs out the clock, not lack of being married.

    here we have pure evil

    Under what rules?

  23. Lily says:

    >As is this line of this huge line of betas ready to commit at 25.<
    "Not true. The same data which proves your previous statement right proves this one wrong."
    Not sure whether we're agreeing or disagreeing. I don't think there is a line of betas willing to commit at 25 (so it's not a case of women laughing off the betas whilst shagging the alphas), I think you're agreeing. I've seen stats that support this.

    I may have read Marco wrong, I hope so. I don't think Marco is doing the equivalent of following his tingle, if that were the case, he'd just be chasing the most attractive women regardless of their age or background and not misleading women, after all good looking alpha men (whether naturals or learn) don't need to do that. Words in his post also reminded me of the Criminal Minds episode which had a bit of PUA in it where one of the team says they are using serial killer language.
    The woman who is just following her tingle isn't deliberately setting out to take advantage of someone, Marco's post comes out as if he is.

    dalrock, you shame Elizabeth Gilbert for leaving her childless marriage, yet you don't seem to see anything wrong with being a predator and deliberately setting out to do things you know will cause hurt to other people. (you as in one of course).

  24. dalrock says:

    Not sure whether we’re agreeing or disagreeing. I don’t think there is a line of betas willing to commit at 25 (so it’s not a case of women laughing off the betas whilst shagging the alphas), I think you’re agreeing.

    The data shows that men are marrying around 2 years later than women. So 25 year old women are on average marrying 27 year old men. Those women who want to marry in their twenties aren’t having any problems finding men roughly their age to marry. So no, there isn’t a shortage of betas looking to marry a 25 year old woman.

    dalrock, you shame Elizabeth Gilbert for leaving her childless marriage, yet you don’t seem to see anything wrong with being a predator and deliberately setting out to do things you know will cause hurt to other people.

    Setting aside the fact that Gilbert first wrote a book and then made a movie celebrating her frivolous divorce, there is a huge difference between marriage and hooking up. She made marriage less viable as an institution. The fact that she herself didn’t have kids doesn’t mean that no kids will suffer. They will suffer, by the thousands if not millions. Marco makes hooking up less viable as an institution. I’m not all that interested to make a world where hooking up is safer. If folks want to play by their own rules then so be it. But I’m not going to wade into a crooked poker game and try to play ref. Same goes if Roissy tomorrow posts how some hussy seduced him and broke his heart. I won’t be wasting any space shaming her either.

    If Marco were marrying the women and then divorcing them or having affairs, then he’d warrant shaming. Or if he were seducing virgins with false promises of marriage. He isn’t.

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  26. Gorbachev says:

    I’d be miffed if some dude played my ex-wife and trashed. Oh, this did happen. My wife may have been stupid, but she didn’t deserve what she got.

    On the other hand, life turned out pretty good for me. So I’m not bitter. It might have been different.

    But the idea that some of these women are getting come-uppance when they’re consciously laughing about how they’ll settle for the nice guy once enough randy dicks have fucked them – and then lie about it to the hapless sucker – well, …

    The betas need to be taught how women think. That’s all. And then judge, … accordingly.

  27. dalrock says:

    Hi Gorbachev. Good to see you back.

    I really don’t like to see anyone being treated badly, even if they treated others quite badly themselves. At the same time I keep thinking of a friend of mine who went to Pamplona to run with the bulls. He said some guys saw the bulls and freaked out, and tried to climb the wall to get out. They wanted to brag about their bravery in deciding to run with the bulls, but then chose safety at the last minute. The cops on the other side of the wall would shove them back in saying You wanted to run with the bulls, so run with the bulls!

    Not withstanding J’s assertion on the youtube thread that women who end up 35 and unmarried are almost exclusively former nuns and women who cared for their sick parents, I think Marco’s marks mostly thought they had found a way to make everything fall in their favor. There were no rules until all of a sudden it didn’t work out the way they wanted. His deception is dishonest and dishonorable. But he mostly is deceiving those who hoped to deceive him. He isn’t looking for a chaste woman to have deep conversation and long walks on the beach with. He’s looking for a woman hoping to use sex to lure an unsuspecting man into financing her life.

  28. Gorbachev says:

    All four are huge concerns for the woman.

    #3 and #4 are the biggies.

  29. Gorbachev says:

    One thing is true: Had my profound betaness not driven my wife away, she’d have been much, much happier staying married to me.

    I look back on it and I can see it very clearly.

    Single and 37 and no prospects and hunting for a man who wants a family – harsh. And pining for the asshole musician who trashed her and is – surprise – shacked up with another 27 year-old, …

  30. Gorbachev says:

    But I HAVE met some 35-40 year olds who are still entitled, who walk around with an air of desperate angry IveBeenBetrayedYoureAllShit painted on their faces. If you flirt with one, and then they find out you’re taken but unmarried, they often hang around a bit more; if they see something else that sets them off you can see the contempt.

    One thing: They have truly massive amounts of hatred for men who date younger. My GF is 10 years younger than me; she finds the age gap exactly normal. When other women see the age gap, they’re a little surprised.

    Apparently, dating our own age is a requirement.

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  32. Hope says:

    This is why I think alimony and child support should be removed from all no-fault divorces. In this day and age the woman can and often does work, and often remarries, so it makes no sense for her to divorce just to be “set” financially. If a woman is truly unhappy then she will leave regardless of the finances (although I think fault divorces should have some compensation). Giving women monetary incentives to divorce is simply strange.

    The other thing is, deadbeat dads will be deadbeat regardless of the legal system. Dads who want to take care of their kids should be able to do so without handing over a set check to mom who often gets defaulted custody. A lot of times if good fathers are able to determine how much they want to spend on the kids while they spend time together, they are very generous. If the mom is actually struggling the kids will be likely to say something.

    I’m guessing men would be a lot less reluctant to marry if they didn’t have to suffer such financial consequences during so-called no-fault divorce, which tends to punish men disproportionately.

  33. Reading the comments on this thread brings me right back to my often repeated point here, Dalrock. Women in particular need to rethink what we’ve been taught. And the first step is to get over the idea of playing the field in your twenties because you’re too young to get married. There is a need for massive deprogramming.

    I had to go through it myself. Marrying young didn’t make me any less of a feminist, but I grew up a lot faster than I would have otherwise. Besides I married a guy who said, “You have to be with me on my terms, and that’s it. I’m not changing anything about me that doesn’t need to be changed to satisfy your whims ’cause next year it’ll be something else.” Does that make him an alpha? I still have a hard time figuring out what all that stuff means exactly.

    In other words, many women can spare themselves the con by settling down young. The rest (because I know not all are so fortunate) can spare themselves the con by refusing to sell sex outside of marriage for the possibility of security within a marriage. If you do that, how are you any different than a prostitute? It’s that angle that makes me be a little less disturbed by men like Marco. Without women for sale, he couldn’t exist.

  34. Mirco says:

    Dating your own age is something that happen naturally but it is not forced by nature.
    There are natural advantages to be mated with someone with your age (less genetic problems, if you are young) and natural advantages to be mated with an older male (greater financial security for self and the children). Historical data show that women marring older dudes in Sweden/Norway were better fed (older dudes hunted better) than women married with younger ones.
    In the past, in England, men leaved wills so their wives could not remarry and keep their wealth (to protect their children and prevent the Cinderella Scenario).

    My opinion is that marring in the same age become a requirement with compulsive schooling of the children. So children are forced to only socialize with their parents, siblings and classmates. And you fish in the pool you are.
    Mating with someone of a different age cohort become rare and is perceived as strange.

    Another advantage of mating with an older man is to have someone more mature than the young woman to run the house, set rules and limits. Women will arrive there, if they are not too much damaged, but take more time (usually enough time for their hormones to settle down).

  35. J says:

    Not withstanding J’s assertion on the youtube thread that women who end up 35 and unmarried are almost exclusively former nuns and women who cared for their sick parents,

    That’s not quite what I said, D. I said that for all you know any one individual woman could bed in that position. I feel like youj are intentionally misunderstanding this.

  36. Lily says:

    I don’t think a 10 year age gap is uncommon, especially at 37/27. It’s just not that common because most people are used to people marrying younger (as you did the first time) and therefore it’s less common, i.e. because you’re talking 26/16 or 28/18.

    A friend of mine is the same age as you and he is getting married to a girl 10 years younger and nobody’s said anything about the age difference, though a couple of people have commented she’s a gold digger which is probably linked to her age (but to be fair I have an uneasy feeling about it, as well as having that feeling that J talked about when you just know someone’s had a bit of a past, but hey, he gets a hot 27 year old and he’s had plenty of experience to judge for himself, he can’t complain he got taken for a ride). When I was dating/marrying my ex, females he knew his age seemed a bit put out, but I also got a bit of a hard time over it from boys my age.

    “But I HAVE met some 35-40 year olds who are still entitled, who walk around with an air of desperate angry IveBeenBetrayedYoureAllShit painted on their faces.”
    Stay away from women like that. I’m learning to stay away from men like that, even on the interwebz, it’s effecting my positive energy. And without that, I won’t be me.

  37. Lily says:

    “The rest (because I know not all are so fortunate) can spare themselves the con by refusing to sell sex outside of marriage for the possibility of security within a marriage.”
    I don’t have sex with my boyfriend because I’m trying to get him to marry me. Or saying to him that he can’t have sex with me till we are married.
    Either of those scenarios would make me a whore.

  38. Lily says:

    To clarify my comment, it’s one thing for a couple to not have premarital sex for religious or moral reasons (and I find novaseeker’s attitude admirable), but find descriptions like above quite disconcerting.

  39. Lily says:

    When I said, I am no fan of golddiggers or any woman who preys on men, but I know this particular man.

  40. J says:

    Hey Gorb,

    Good to “see” you. While I’m pretty much against the May-December thing, even I see ten years as May-June/July. It’s not creepy, but it’s at the cusp where one person has so much life experience that they can easily take advantage of the other.

    When I was 20, for example, I was engaged to 28 year old. The usual objections to age differences did not apply. There was no gold-digger thing involved, nor were we members really of two different generations. I was in fact the fresh, inexperienced, unspoiled girl of PUA fantasy. But in terms of experience, he could and did wipe the floor with me. I know a lot of guys would find that delightfully alpha, but it was the cause of a very painful break –painful for both of us. It put me off men for a couple of years. And, up until about five years ago, when I suspect my husband confronted him, my ex regarded me as “the one that got away.” In between his three marriages, he would track me down and complain to me that I ruined his life by not marrying him. (As opposed to my husband, whose life I ruined by marrying him. ;-)) The last hurrah occurred in the parking lot of my kids’ school. I loudly rebuffed him. It was quite public, and I suspect got back to both our spouses. Anyway, a lot of pain would have been avoided had he been less alpha.

    I bring this up because I saw your posts at CR regarding your cheating on PCG. It may be none of my business, but I figure that if you put in on the net it’s up for grabs. I want to tell you to not let the fear of appearing beta cause you to hurt yourself and this girl.

    I recall that when you first met her, she said something to the effect that she felt it was dangerous for her to fall for you and that you would not be good for her. I think that you are proving her right. Your cheating hurt her. You two may well go through a period where she tries hard to please you so that she can hold on to you. At some point however, she will grow up and begin to wonder if you are worth holding to. Most women with healthy self-esteem will not stay with a cheater. Even those who do, because of kids or whatever, will inevitably harbor deep resentment.

    FWIW, I’m not saying this to shame you. I was pulling for you and PCG to be happy and I still hope it works out.

    Take care,

    J

  41. Hope says:

    I think Gorb got poisoned by the well over at those pick-up blogs, and now he has ruined the pure love with his insecurities. That love is now tainted with mistrust, pain, and a degree of sadomasochism. Very dark stuff. It reminds of the immature kind of love that burned out eventually that I once mistook for real love.

    My husband has never seemed “beta” to me just because he fell in love with me. The denigration and trashing of true love is ridiculous. There is nothing more “alpha” than love. Love is among the most primal and awesome forces in the universe. Spiritually speaking, Love IS God.

    Who knows, though. If this woman is as amazing as he states she is, she may forgive him from a place of love rather than stay with him out of weakness, dependency and fear. I just don’t think he is self-assured enough to not hurt her again to try to manipulate and control her.

    Just thinking about it makes me so grateful to have met a truly emotionally mature man at my age (we’re both 26), who would not think of cheating so he could have the “upper hand” or to be more “alpha.” He is all the more “alpha” to me because of it. This kind of loving trust is so much stronger than anything that can be gotten through playing silly, childish games.

    Resentment, fear, pain and manipulation are the enemies of love. It saddens me that so many people throw away such an incredible thing due to their own inability to love.

  42. J says:

    Very few women get alimony, and at least in my state those who do are older, non-career woman who often put a husband through profesional school when they were young. In other words, a sixty year old woman who worked while her husband was in med school and then stayed home with kids and childchildren for 35 years, gets alimony until she remarries. I probably wouldn’t. Basically, I think that’s fair.

    As for child support, make a baby, take care of a baby. It shouldn’t be voluntary.

  43. J says:

    Cosigned, for the most part.

    I’d wonder about forgiving from a place of love. It sounds great; I wish I say I’d do that but I’d always be wary. Of the few women I once thought of as truly having forgiven a cheater, most have eventually shown themselves to have held on to some resentment.

    I think Gorb has blown it, which makes me sad because he is one of the more civilized guys at CR.

  44. Gorbachev says:

    @J,

    I recall that when you first met her, she said something to the effect that she felt it was dangerous for her to fall for you and that you would not be good for her. I think that you are proving her right. Your cheating hurt her. You two may well go through a period where she tries hard to please you so that she can hold on to you. At some point however, she will grow up and begin to wonder if you are worth holding to. Most women with healthy self-esteem will not stay with a cheater. Even those who do, because of kids or whatever, will inevitably harbor deep resentment.

    You're right, of course; and my behavior has been adjusted accordingly.

    At the moment, she's actually accepted an invitation of, for me, monumental proportions: She moved in.

    Egad.

    Anyway, the cheating was, I hope, the dying calls of a prior life. She could just as well do the same, though she's not into that sort of thing.

    And I'd like to point out that she effectively took total control of both situations. Owned them, so to speak.

    She's both more canny and smarter than I'd have thought. She effectively has me wrapped around her finger, though she may not be aware of it.

    FWIW, I’m not saying this to shame you. I was pulling for you and PCG to be happy and I still hope it works out.

    I understood, fear not. It would be a legitimate concern.

    Having cheated with a super hot ex raises my value in her eyes. In the beginning.

    If it happens later on – not so damned much.

    I’m aware of my limits. I’ve walked down this road before, right?

    Or at least, I like to think I’ aware of my limits.

  45. Gorbachev says:

    @Hope,

    Poisoned?

    If I was poisoned, it was long, long ago in a land far, far away.

    Lots of people have baggage.

    Life is pretty good right now.

    And I’m pretty sure my beloved is completely in love with me. She’s staying with me because, as well, her world is pretty big, and she’s always been with Men who are, well, Men: If a guy cheats, there must be *some* reason beyond a bored penis. She was raised in Europe – France/Switzerland- for much of her life, so her cultural view of such things is different.

    Not that different – but sufficiently that she can forgive something from an “alpha” that she’s be disgusted with from a “beta”. She wants an Alpha man – I need to deliver. And if I make a mistake, I need to deliver the mistake in Alpha terms, …

    As I spice it with some genuine Beta, ie,…

    She gets to reform the player. The truth is that I was halfway there already. But she gets to take me the rest of the way.

  46. dalrock says:

    @Lily
    I don’t have sex with my boyfriend because I’m trying to get him to marry me. Or saying to him that he can’t have sex with me till we are married.
    Either of those scenarios would make me a whore.

    I think you are getting at the core of the issue here, and it gets back to the question of old rules or new. Many young women wait to have sex until marriage or until they find the man they expect to marry. I don’t think it is fair to question their motives. They are following the old rules. Marriage is an important priority for them and so is their sexual purity in that regard.

    A woman who hasn’t been chaste and/or interested in marriage for a decade or more after entering adulthood starts to look different if they all of a sudden start to want to play by the old rules. Especially if they have sudden urgency to marry and zero in on men who project the ability to support them. They can end up seeming more like a gold-digger or as you point out, a whore.

  47. novaseeker says:

    I also think that, as a practical matter, you’re never really past cheating. My own marriage counselor told me that in order to get past my wife’s “situation” I would have to basically start the relationship again, as if nothing happened. Trying to continue/rebuild the old one just doesn’t very often work except on the surface, and typically there’s a ton of resentment lurking underneath.

  48. Gorbachev says:

    @J,

    I might have blown it–

    But not from recent evidence.

    I do know that I’m on best behavior now, and I’ve never been happier not, say, looking askance at other women.

    I’m saved by being both charming and brutally honest. And the fact that she knows that she owns me – through her efforts, not her physical charm – doesn’t hurt, either.

    She’s one of those very attractive women who needs an Alpha Male – craves it – but also wants him to be Understanding and Devoted to her.

    In this context, I think I’ve managed to convey ongoing desirability (unwittingly) while giving her moral authority and making my submission to her idea of what she wants have some value.

    Were I just to acquiesce easily, believe me, my going would be much harder. This woman has turned down rich, hot men flat for not being man enough.

    I knew this from the beginning: Being with someone this far out of my league was going to be difficult. What I didn’t know was that it was my response to things that made all the difference.

    Cheating was one thing; being honest was another; being remorseful but matter-of-fact was another still. Had I stooped to apologize profusely and make it up to her, it would have been further evidence of my unsuitability: I was weak. Maybe I wasn’t a prize.

    Should you doubt this analysis, and I do all the time, by the way, she moved into my place recently. The thesis that I helped her write has been accepted; she’s graduating from her master’s program. She’s never been more secure with me; and I’m not going to apologize any more, in any way, but I’m also not going to give her reason to doubt.

    I hadn’t thought it would work this way, but there it is. In the end, bu acting the way she did, she acquired nearly complete loyalty from me without having to demand anything.

    This is one clever woman. I tell you, it’s the French in her. All that time in Paris and Lausanne has given her a wily feminine side that has me slightly off-balance.

    She has none of the Anglo moral puritanism and absolutism.

    It makes her much more attractive, … and dangerous. Also more capable of putting herself in someone else’s shoes.

    I have never been more impressed with her. I didn’t even hesitate when I thought of asking her to move in. It’s been 6 months, no more.

    She won’t know this. But as far as I’m concerned, she owns me.

  49. novaseeker says:

    My husband has never seemed “beta” to me just because he fell in love with me. The denigration and trashing of true love is ridiculous. There is nothing more “alpha” than love. Love is among the most primal and awesome forces in the universe. Spiritually speaking, Love IS God.

    Perhaps, but …

    That is a nice ideal, but it isn’t the brass tacks that gets you through rough spots in a marriage. Men *do* fall into a beta trap in marriage, rather often. It’s just that it’s described in other ways — such as losing the romantic aspect, or perhaps taking the other person for granted, or perhaps becoming too familiar and so on. All of this really reflects what is now being referred to as “going beta” — it’s used as a shorthand for “acting in a way that is different from what attracted her to you in the first place”. From the male perspective, this can be a big issue in marriages, because many of us are pretty lazy in relationships, really, and can’t be bothered at times to play the role of the interesting, romantic boyfriend well into the course of a marriage, and so it’s something that is useful for men to focus on in order to try to avoid common male pitfalls in marriage — all the more important given the marital regime today, really. It’s nice to have ideals, but unless you translate those into practical action, they don’t make that much of a difference. Almost all marriages start from the perspective of high ideals and true love, whether they end up failing eventually or not.

  50. Gorbachev says:

    Well, …

    This is true if the relationship is well-established.

    Mine has just started. I get a pass for that. It was ambiguous at the first, and the second was my amazing bad judgment. I acknowledged that and she redefined the whole situation.

    Had this happened a year from now (assuming we’re still together), … it would have been an entirely different story.

    My wiggle room is gone. I’m happy with that.

  51. Hope says:

    Sounds like a whole load of justifications there. Framing it in these “alpha” vs. “beta” terms rather than human terms. Sorry, but I don’t buy it. And I’m looking at it as the daughter of a supposed “alpha” father who cheated on mother, left her and cheated on second wife, and left second wife. To me that’s not alpha. That’s just wrong. Yes Asian culture has plenty of this, as does French culture. Doesn’t mean it signals or fosters real love.

    But at any rate, it sounds like you two are well-matched, and that’s better than many alternatives. Some women are into that sort of thing, and it sounds like she is. My premise is not false though. True love has been poisoned in your case, or perhaps it had never existed. You and she are “in a kind of love” — infatuation. Sure, that will last long enough, but not forever. Sooner or later someone will likely out-alpha you in this game you play, or out-dopamine with a fresh cocktail of neurochemicals.

    Then again, if you never stop playing the game and keep on cheating, it’ll keep the hamster wheel spinning for a long, long time. What a way to be… what a way to love.

    Different strokes for different folks, I suppose.

  52. J says:

    At the moment, she’s actually accepted an invitation of, for me, monumental proportions: She moved in.

    Gorb, you never fail to impress. I’d have killed you. Srsly, I never lived with a man before my husband and I married, and, as far as I know, no one has ever cheated on me. Even as bright and witty as I find you, I certainaly would not have moved in.

    Anyway, the cheating was, I hope, the dying calls of a prior life.

    I hope so. You can do more than hope. This is within your control.

    She could just as well do the same, though she’s not into that sort of thing.

    We women usually aren’t. Notice that I said, I’d kill my husband in revenge, not cheat on him. Why should I make myself a whore?

    Having cheated with a super hot ex raises my value in her eyes.

    That’s the PUA creed. I’ll have to take your word for it. As I said, if I were PCG, I’d have booted you. To me cheating is a sign of a highly disqualifying character flaw, and I’m bigger of character than I am on tingles–not that I don’t love tingles.

    If it happens later on – not so damned much.

    Right!

    Anyway, all the best with this. A lot of the married guys have written that LTR game depends on a mix of alpha and beta traits. As much as I hate the nomenclature, I agree. On the one hand, no one loves a pushover; OTOH, if you can’t be beta around the woman who loves you, who can you be beta around?

    When I started posting, I was harangued about whether my husband is an alpha or beta and viewed by some as a dominating bitch. The truth is I’m a bit of a handful, and he’s man enough to handle it. But he’s also a good, generous, faithful, stable guy and I’m pretty supportive of him–even when he’s down. He can afford to be beta every once in a while.

    It’s all about balance, not hand. Ask Dalrock or Polymath or Athol Kay, not the denizens of the Chateau, how to acheive that.

    All the best!

    J

  53. Hope says:

    Fair point, but doing “what attracted her to him in the first place” can look quite different depending on what really did attract her. The idea of my husband going off and sleeping with some other woman, in the first 6 months of our new love, would have seriously made me reevaluate him as a person. I probably would have lost a lot of respect for him, and most likely we would not be married today. But this woman supposedly took it well and considers her beloved very alpha for doing so.

    Extrapolate that 10 years into the future. I’m no prophet, but I did have a similar experience with a man like that, with whom I stayed despite being hurt. 10 years after the hurt, he became the ex. The resentment lasted, while the love did not. It was a false kind of love, a self-delusion. I took the bad treatment, too, the drama, the pain, the jealousy, the pangs of hurt that I felt for certain meant I would love that man forever. How blind and naive I was.

    I see this girl being just as blind and naive.

  54. Gorbachev says:

    “True Love” comes in many forms and many doses.

    We haven’t reached that stage yet. I was with my wife for years, and we started out as each others’ first and most perfect romances.

    It was sour within 5 years.

    This time, I’m taking it in force: I’m never giving up hand. The moment I lose it with a woman like this, the respect will be gone.

    This is true for many men with very attractive wives. They maintain it because they’re natural alphas. I’m not. In fact, I often question what the hell I’m doing: being with a solid 9 takes insane amounts of work. She expects her man to be her Man every moment of every day.

    I’ve deftly passed shit tests, and I still get the occasional one thrown out at me.

    It’s one thing to believe in True Love, but my personal self-analysis and the analysis of other relationships shows the whole Female Hypergamy thing to be exactly correct.

    Women just idealize it and then talk about it fading. It’s not a spiritual linking (though it can feel that way): It’s chemical.

    I was trained as a scientist and I studied a number of sciences (my degrees); it’s more natural for me to see things this way. It may not be for you, for many reasons (I never saw things this way before, either).

    But as for love, true love, …

    Blind love, where you have no idea what the process is that’s working its way on you, is not useful, I think.

    You’re complaining about knowing about the magic trick, ultimately. You think, once you know how the trick works, it’s not magic any more.

    Well, I’ll tell you, …

    It still feels like magic. Its effect on me as as strong. Apparently, it’s the same for her. But the difference is that I understand it now, more openly.

    I can also tweak and manipulate it. That’s like cheating at a video game: hacking the code to change the result/make it easier. Do it too much, and it’s no fun any more.

    But, …

    Not getting tooled by a relationship or a woman and being able to maintain our happiness is no small feat.

    “True Love” can come out of many situations. It isn’t just a textbook story of A > B > C.

    Never count yourself out until the flag goes down. Never count your chickens until they’re hatched. And even after they have, never take your chickens for granted.

    True Love has this nasty habit of slipping away when you least expect it.

    And, believe me this:

    Everyone has their secrets.

    At least my lady knows mine.

  55. Lily, I think you misunderstood my above comment if you think what I described, that a woman shouldn’t have sex outside of marriage as being a whore, withholding sex in exchange for a wedding ring.

    I am a Christian, and as such, I believe sex outside of marriage is morally and spiritually wrong. Of course, if a person has other reasons for not wanting to engage in pre-marital sex, that’s their right.

  56. Hope says:

    The lack of understanding is easy to see. Some people are just on different wave frequencies. Gorb has probably slept with at least a couple of dozen women, and PCG probably is used to men like that. My husband and I are both single digit in partner count. Gorb and PCG eschew traditional familial morality while we believe in it. We’re highly unusual people in one direction, while Gorb and PCG are unusual in another direction.

    I guess the situation just reminds me too much of all the other “failures” I have seen and heard about previously, and experienced myself. Maybe yes, I’m totally off the mark, and they will last until their 50th anniversary. I hope that happens, in fact. But if I were a betting sort, I wouldn’t make that bet. J who has been married for a long time says basically exactly what I thought, too. Still, exceptions do happen, particularly for exceptional people. May that be the case.

  57. Gorbachev says:

    @J
    At the moment, she’s actually accepted an invitation of, for me, monumental proportions: She moved in.

    Gorb, you never fail to impress. I’d have killed you. Srsly, I never lived with a man before my husband and I married, and, as far as I know, no one has ever cheated on me. Even as bright and witty as I find you, I certainaly would not have moved in.

    (BTW, that’s an Anglo-puritan thing. Doesn’t exist outside America in the Western world. In France, people aren’t even bothering to get married, by and large. This won’t be PCG’s pattern, for sure, but she’s hugely into me. She knows it’s hard for me to be really close to someone, in a commitment-way: so she knows this is hugely significant for me. She appreciates it from that perspective. Besides, she’s only going to get married for her family’s sake, possibly for kids: her European education schooled her on that. I personally see it a different way, being much more conservative socially than she is, but this is the world I live in, and I’m not going to look a gift horse in the mouth. Baby steps.).

    She did. Not only that, she’s laid full claim to my den, now her Study.

    She’s had proof of my real feelings, and my devotion: I helped her finish her thesis. It was a remarkable process, actually: And I forced her to respect herself, essentially.

    She takes me seriously, because I treat her seriously, as a person, not as a prize.

    And she never, ever fails to impress me. She’s stepped up to every challenge without hesitation and her words are always on point.
    This is one hugely classy lady, and still an idealistic girl in spirit.

    There’s no way I couldn’t fall madly in love with her.

    I’m actually having to deal with a good bit of terror internally, as I find myself becoming attached in a real sense. Not to a hot young woman: to a truly unique individual person.

    It’s beguiling and terrifying at the same time.

    That’s got to be pretty real.


    Anyway, the cheating was, I hope, the dying calls of a prior life.

    I hope so. You can do more than hope. This is within your control.

    Of course.

    The first instance was pattern. The second was amazingly poor judgment. I thought I could control the situation – I was exactly wrong. I painted myself into a corner. My ex was a total “If he’s with someone else, I must have him” woman. Being taken and unavailable made me that much richer a target, and she got me bad.

    Now – my response will be different. I’m also choosing, for my own benefit, to avoid situations where I’m placing myself in danger.

    She could just as well do the same, though she’s not into that sort of thing.

    We women usually aren’t. Notice that I said, I’d kill my husband in revenge, not cheat on him. Why should I make myself a whore?

    She didn’t make herself a whore, though I appreciate the sentiment: She took actual damned possession of my sexuality.

    You had to be there. She *owns* me.

    No better way for me to say it.

    Having cheated with a super hot ex raises my value in her eyes.

    That’s the PUA creed. I’ll have to take your word for it. As I said, if I were PCG, I’d have booted you. To me cheating is a sign of a highly disqualifying character flaw, and I’m bigger of character than I am on tingles–not that I don’t love tingles.

    My ex was her equal in hotness. A rare prize for any guy, ever, anywhere. In fact, she was likely among the most beautiful women I’ve ever known in real life.

    I was completely, absolutely honest in every way. This was backed up. And PCG turned it around and made it not my mistake, but her ownership of the situation. It was also egged on by her anxiety.

    The PUA creed may be trite at times, but with a solid 9, who until recently was being courted by the hottest up-and-coming men in her social circle and was assumed to be going to marry rich and handsome, with the city at her feet, …

    I need to Bring it. And being the “nice guy” who never waffles and is a rock is great, but she can get that anywhere.

    The PUAs are dead-bang-on about the really hot women with any option they want.

    The bonus for her is that I’m also a thoughtful and decent chappy who won’t tool her. When I make a promise to her, I’ve delivered tenfold, and intend to do the same in the future. However, … Making easy promises isn’t my thing, either.

    As much as she’s working for it, believe me, I’m working double-time.

    I literally have to Step Up and Be The Man with her.

    Unlike in my first marriage, I’m not kowtowing or stopping to please. And exactly as according to PUA creed, this appears to be precisely what she wants.

    An occasional reminder that I could be elsewhere serves to do three things, as per your note about the PUA creed:
    1) Indicates I have options, and those options are as good as her.
    2) Indicates that if I choose her, that choice has some actual value. She has a very high estimation of her Personal Value as a mate. Her entire life has been a reinforcement of that. All men she ever meets reinforce that.
    3) Now that that’s out of the way, we can relate to each other as equals.

    Remember – this is a woman for whom if we go out, she always has grotesque amounts of male attention. One guy in Korea, when she went over to visit me on my trip, gave her his phone number, insisted on a dance and told her to meet him later – WITH ME STANDING A SHORT DISTANCE AWAY. Me 5 years ago would have been humiliated.

    Now? Whatever. Do what you want. She had no interest, but YOU tell me:

    If your women is literally under siege from male interest, just what should I be doing?

    If I were with someone else, maybe I could fudge the rules. But on this level, the PUAs have it dead-to-rights.

    Once this stage is done, though, I’d better be The Man in more ways than one.

    This is the risk if you acquire a woman like this: Smart, classy, gorgeous and with all the options in the world. Literally every man she meets is my competition. At all times. It’s not going to let up. Ever. Three years from now, even if she has my child, she’ll have guys hitting on her (she’ll only be 31, after all). In 10 years, she’ll still be hot. And just as clever.

    I’ve got some experience with relationships. To say I’m terrified of being too attached to her is not an understatement: I’m way, way, way out of my league. I’m the short guy playing with the Harlem Globetrotters. I’m the guy who studies hard trying to invent things in a world filled with Edisons.

    So I think what’s remarkable is how I’ve managed to turn mistakes into plusses, all through attitude (game, but more attitude than anything else).

    Potential disasters into potential plusses.

    I can’t do that forever, and frankly, I’ve been insanely lucky. That luck, …

    Well, let’s just say I’m not about to test it.

    If it happens later on – not so damned much.

    Right!

    I know that, for sure. At this stage, well, before, yes. Later, …

    No way Jose.

    Anyway, all the best with this. A lot of the married guys have written that LTR game depends on a mix of alpha and beta traits. As much as I hate the nomenclature, I agree. On the one hand, no one loves a pushover; OTOH, if you can’t be beta around the woman who loves you, who can you be beta around?

    I know.

    I’ve been mixing in some Beta. When the debate over the Clothing came (her wardrobe needs its own zip code), I had to hold firm; she almost said she wouldn’t move in. I said: You have 5 times as much clothing as me. Giving you the closet in the hallway is more than fair. It’s walk-in and I’ll build drawers into it. Last word.

    Complain to the hand.

    She backed down. She accepted the limited space and has boxes piled to the wazoo above the shelves. Smart girl. But she was pretty vociferous. That damned shoe collection – holy crap, I need a new condo for her shoes.

    I own mostly video and computer equipment. My little studio is pretty impressive. Moving would be a pain and you should see how much I have my stuff insured for. That’s my profession, though, and I need all of it. Add in a very expensive hand-made crossbow with a repeater made by hand by a model-builder in Hungary for me, and it’s all quite the collection of toys. That’s my “stuff”.

    Her “stuff” includes almost nothing *but* clothes. I swear, she can talk about fashion even longer than she can talk about international relations. It boggles.

    Truly, it boggles. And she can do it in three languages, 4 but I don’t speak Farsi. Damn, it just drives me nuts.

    So when I called a limit, she acquiesced. After very painful discussions.

    Her plan: Anything she hasn’t worn in 2 years goes. Same for shoes.

    I refused to back down on space. Not for one second.

    I think she respects me for it.

    When I started posting, I was harangued about whether my husband is an alpha or beta and viewed by some as a dominating bitch. The truth is I’m a bit of a handful, and he’s man enough to handle it. But he’s also a good, generous, faithful, stable guy and I’m pretty supportive of him–even when he’s down. He can afford to be beta every once in a while.

    I plan to be the same. Good, generous, stable – and faithful, too. I was that. I can be it again. The international man of mystery guy was never really me. Giving him up isn’t too much of a struggle.

    It’s all about balance, not hand. Ask Dalrock or Polymath or Athol Kay, not the denizens of the Chateau, how to acheive that.

    Indeed. With no Long-Term game, I needed to bone up. I’ve been giving it lots of study and have a mentor of sorts.

    It’s been most illuminating. I’ve learned lots. Hopefully, …

    My mix of Beta and Alpha will hold me in good stead.

    Al this said, she loves me, she’s said, for my weakness.

    (Of course, I know this means: She loves a strong man, with some weakness).

  58. Gorbachev says:

    @Hope
    Fair point, but doing “what attracted her to him in the first place” can look quite different depending on what really did attract her. The idea of my husband going off and sleeping with some other woman, in the first 6 months of our new love, would have seriously made me reevaluate him as a person. I probably would have lost a lot of respect for him, and most likely we would not be married today. But this woman supposedly took it well and considers her beloved very alpha for doing so.

    What saved me:

    – the woman was my ex. She wasn’t a “new” woman. I wasn’t in a clearly monogamous relationship with PCG at the time; and PCG had some, shall we say, overlap with her frighteningly handsome beau she finally finished with. It gave me some wiggle room. Not much, but some.
    – The second time: I traveled to another country, and met an ex. It was pouring rain, and I couldn’t get to my hotel (actually true). I was stinky, tired, miserable and worn out. So I stayed at her place: Me, loyal and innocent, not looking for anything. My ex kind-of created a situation I couldn’t escape from, at all. Not gracefully. There was no way out. And it was, in immediate retrospect, all my fault.

    I admitted my complete fault for getting into the situation, foolishly. And put no blame on the ex. She respected me for being honest (which I was), taking responsibility, and admiring me for contacting her and explaining it.
    She absolutely believes that I’d never have done it to her under normal circumstances and had no wish to, in any case. All of that is true. I’d never have done it and will be avoiding even the hint of impropriety in the future.

    And I did say – you need to watch out for a bit of mess given my, … past. And now that the danger is obvious, … she’s been understanding. And patient. And has owned each situation completely.

    Her Europeanness and the newness of the relationship has made a difference. When the relationship is less new, my behavior had better be up to par.

    She wants her Alpha Man that other women she considers attractive want. She doesn’t want some nice, reliable Beta man – she could literally have any number of these. All of them, probably.

    If I am that man for one second, I will lose her. I know it in my heart. All women like her are like this. More women than you know. Anyone who gets that much attention from men has a very high opinion of themselves and knows what they want.

    ON THE OTHER HAND

    In the post-establishment phase of a relationship, … *ANY* sign of this will get a different response. I know that.

    I’ve just gone through Establishment. It was awfully quick, but extremely intense, and I spent much more time with her in 5 months than most people do with spouses they live with.

    So I do recognize that now, it’s the reality of the situation of our permanent LT relationship that changes things. She’s made some non-verbal commitments to me, and I’ve done the same to her – and now, …

    The rules change.

    Believe me, I get that.

    Extrapolate that 10 years into the future. I’m no prophet, but I did have a similar experience with a man like that, with whom I stayed despite being hurt. 10 years after the hurt, he became the ex. The resentment lasted, while the love did not. It was a false kind of love, a self-delusion. I took the bad treatment, too, the drama, the pain, the jealousy, the pangs of hurt that I felt for certain meant I would love that man forever. How blind and naive I was.

    I see this girl being just as blind and naive.

    It could be.

    But my observation tells me that this woman is anything but naive.

    Dammit, she’s so on the ball I need to think twice before I do anything – she’s often one step ahead of me.

    She has her own version of game. I compete with her at my peril.

  59. Gorbachev says:

    @Hope,
    The lack of understanding is easy to see. Some people are just on different wave frequencies. Gorb has probably slept with at least a couple of dozen women,

    Thank you. That makes me feel much better.

    and PCG probably is used to men like that.

    In big cities, the kinds of men she meets aren’t the local I Went To College And Just Got a Job types who had 1-2 girlfriends before.

    Imagine NYC. Imagine Paris, once you’re done. Then try Boston and a very liberal university town. It’s as far from mainstream middle-class middle-America as you can get.

    Urban culture bears no resemblance to exurban culture in America. There literally are two different worlds. She grew up in the former, largely in another country, where her internationalized family sent her to school. Her facebook friends live in 23 different countries around the world.

    I’m playing in the big leagues, now. Standards, … shift.

    My husband and I are both single digit in partner count. Gorb and PCG eschew traditional familial morality while we believe in it. We’re highly unusual people in one direction, while Gorb and PCG are unusual in another direction.

    I’d venture to say that we’re normal for large-city America. I also lived in 5 different countries, have dated a number of women, and was married for 5 years in my mid-20’s. I’d venture to say I’m not that unusual given my work and lifestyle and where I’ve lived, and that she’s not atypical.

    I grew up in small-town America, though, and the rest of my family is resolutely small-town Conservative. I believe in things like the sanctity of marriage, loyalty, and family – hence the trips to visit my brother and his growing brood wherever the poor guy gets posted (military).

    We’re just not suburban types.

    She, definitely not. She considers *me* small-town America. Most NYC girls would probably say the same thing. I don’t know what she’d do if she was actually transported to actual small-town America. Really, she might go into shock.

    Her idea of countryside is taking a day out of Manhattan or the 13 Arondissement to go to a place with a garden and a view. Maybe do some shopping and see a squirrel.

    On the other hand, *my* idea of getting out of town is being 500 miles from any other people, with a rifle or bow, and killing some hapless deer. And then cleaning and eating it.

    Or visiting my parents. In their hopelessly small-town New England reverie. My mother thinks blacks and whites can just get along by going to school together. The only actual black person she knows is her doctor and maybe his family. They Buy American and Support the Troops (well, one of them is my brother, so there’s some motivation there).

    PCG is touched by the … quaintness of it all. It’s very European of her.

    The joy of it is it’s all very novel for her and she loves it.

    The shocking thing – the prissiness of the local culture and the total priggishness of Anglo culture generally. She’s said that the UK is much more forwardlooking.

    I’m trying to educate her about the advantages of this small-town way of looking at life, even when living in the big city, but it’s a hard sell to someone who, when she thinks of the US, thinks *only* of, say, Manhattan, DC, Seattle, Chicago, Downtown Boston on a good day (but not really), LA or Miami.

    The rest of America, as for many people like her, just doesn’t exist.

    That’s a real cultural divide in this country. Not a small one: Huge.

    I work in media and I worked in news. I faced it all the time. The square-offs between the sticks and the cities was unbelievable.

    I personally think its much worse in places like Texas. There, the cities bear virtually no resemblance to the areas just, say, 10 miles outside of city limits. The culture of non-urban Texans is about as diametrically opposed to urban Texans (at least as far as newsroom culture is concerned) as can possibly be.

    I guess the situation just reminds me too much of all the other “failures” I have seen and heard about previously, and experienced myself. Maybe yes, I’m totally off the mark, and they will last until their 50th anniversary. I hope that happens, in fact. But if I were a betting sort, I wouldn’t make that bet. J who has been married for a long time says basically exactly what I thought, too. Still, exceptions do happen, particularly for exceptional people. May that be the case.

    I’d never make bets on anybody’s marriage.

    I’d like to think I can carry it through. I made a few decisions about my life prior to meeting her, and as soon as I had, WHAM there she was. Seems almost God-given, actually: I’d have to be a complete retard to give this up.

  60. Dex says:

    J, a fertilized egg is a baby? In what country? Not the US.

  61. J says:

    I’m not unfamiliar with that mindset. My family background is not Anglo; both the hubs and I are a mutty melange of white ethnic backgrounds. Our backgrounds intersect in one of those sunny European nations famous for romantic alpha males and the women who love them and take their crap–except of course for the occasional wife who goes nuts, cuts off her husband’s dick and feeds it to his mistress. My experience is that, while the women tolerate and evern expect this stuff, they really don’t like it. Obviously, I don’ty know PCG so I don’t know where on the continuum she lies. I think you should tread carefully. The drama of reforming a bad boy can be draining. After a certain age, which PCG is approaching it loses its appeal.

  62. Gorbachev says:

    @J,
    except of course for the occasional wife who goes nuts, cuts off her husband’s dick and feeds it to his mistress.

    Yeah. Danger occurred to me.

    My experience is that, while the women tolerate and evern expect this stuff, they really don’t like it. Obviously, I don’ty know PCG so I don’t know where on the continuum she lies. I think you should tread carefully. The drama of reforming a bad boy can be draining. After a certain age, which PCG is approaching it loses its appeal.

    She doesn’t know it, but I’m most of the way there. I act a good act, but I was always more beta than alpha; I had a hard education in that.

    My treading has become very careful. Hence the ability to supervise me on a nightly basis, as well as enjoy my tender ministrations. And my food.

    Sadly, I remain a much better cook than she is.

  63. J says:

    Well, Gorb, if your analysis is correct, than I’m happy for you. All the associated drama is a bit much for me, but then I come from a high drama background, as does my husband. We weren’t looking to “own” each other, or make each other DHV or abstain from ever looking at someone else. We were looking to be with people who could look at others but not touch and not bait each other into dueling DHVs. I can’t relate to this whole “not man enough” thing. But if you are comfortable and happy, do what works for you.

  64. J says:

    This time, I’m taking it in force: I’m never giving up hand. The moment I lose it with a woman like this, the respect will be gone.

    Jeez, that sounds like a lot of effort…exhausting, in fact.

    This is true for many men with very attractive wives. They maintain it because they’re natural alphas. I’m not. In fact, I often question what the hell I’m doing: being with a solid 9 takes insane amounts of work. She expects her man to be her Man every moment of every day.

    Wow! Is this really worth your effort? I mean, I like to think I’m still pretty attractive. I don’t want to play HB ratings, but I still turn heads in my 50s; people usually think I’m in my late 30s. I’m guessing that at 25 I probably was a high number, but I can’t see my husband pushing himself against his nature to hold on to me. Too many other fish in the sea.

  65. J says:

    That was some post, Gorb! MY DH and I are going out to dinner later, so I can’t answer at length. I’ll just hit the high notes. First, though I’m not Anglo, I’m very pro-marriage because I am pro-family. A lot of my objection to “living in sin” is not religious or a WASP-y sense of propriety. Some of my objections are pragmatic as well. I just wouldn’t want to take on the domestic role or give up my freedom without a commitment. There’s an opportunity cost to pay.

    I glad that you helped PCG out with her Masters and that you see her as a whole person. That’s terrific. Your description of her and her closet sounds a bit princess-y though. That’s a red flag to me.

    The whore comment wasn’t a reflection on PCG at all; I meant that I personally would not cheat on a cheater because it’s whory. I didn’t think PCG had. I hope it didn’t read like that.

    As to her attractiveness to other men and the constant need to compete, that’s another red flag to me. You are right that she will continue to have options 10 years and a kid from now. Heck, I still have options, and I could be PCG’s mom. What worries me is the idea that you’ll still be competing. While even I enjoy getting the hubs a bit jealous after all thse years, I don’t think he feels a need to compete. There’s a point where, if you can’t feel secure in the strength of a relationship, it’s not worth it. That you think it is worth it, is what’s beta. My husband’s witnessing the attraction of other men to me allows me to demonstrate continuing value, but if he was seriously worried about the relationship he’d throw me out. That’s his real attitude towards the marriage, so I guess he doesn’t need to demonstrate further alphaness.

  66. Gorbachev says:

    @J

    Well, Gorb, if your analysis is correct, than I’m happy for you. All the associated drama is a bit much for me, but then I come from a high drama background, as does my husband. We weren’t looking to “own” each other, or make each other DHV or abstain from ever looking at someone else. We were looking to be with people who could look at others but not touch and not bait each other into dueling DHVs. I can’t relate to this whole “not man enough” thing. But if you are comfortable and happy, do what works for you.

    Actually, most of the time there’s no drama.

    Nowadays, its all about what movie to watch, where to go on weekends and which shoes to wear. Alas, about the shoes.

  67. Gorbachev says:

    @J
    This time, I’m taking it in force: I’m never giving up hand. The moment I lose it with a woman like this, the respect will be gone.

    Jeez, that sounds like a lot of effort…exhausting, in fact.

    You said it.

    Downside to getting a woman every other man you ever meet wants. And her knowing it.

    Thankfully, her ego isn’t that big. But she’s been chased by some pretty intimidating dudes.

    She’s after one thing:

    Character.

    She’s had pretty much everything else offered to her. More money than I’ll *ever* see in my lifetime. She balked at it. More style than I have in my entire wardrobe. More pizazz than I have. More degrees, for that matter.

    She’s always liked good conversations and she’s a sucker for some good repartee. Like all pretty girls, if you don’t shower her with attention and act solicitous, she’s fascinated. And she likes men who are well-read.

    She’s said repeatedly, she never went for men like me: not as handsome nor as well-connected (also not Persian or Arab; though she’s not a softie when it comes to Islam, she’s not Muslim, after all, she likes the swagger Arab/Persian men have. I don’t have that.).

    But she likes, … I guess, … me.

    Also, I gamed her with nuclear game. I laid it on heavy and hard. She’s said nobody ever entranced her so quickly, and kept it up.

    Now, I just need to be that devil-may-care guy who actually loves her to bits.

    I’ve got one of those down. I just have to keep up the other.

    This is true for many men with very attractive wives. They maintain it because they’re natural alphas. I’m not. In fact, I often question what the hell I’m doing: being with a solid 9 takes insane amounts of work. She expects her man to be her Man every moment of every day.

    Wow! Is this really worth your effort? I mean, I like to think I’m still pretty attractive. I don’t want to play HB ratings, but I still turn heads in my 50s; people usually think I’m in my late 30s. I’m guessing that at 25 I probably was a high number, but I can’t see my husband pushing himself against his nature to hold on to me. Too many other fish in the sea.

    True.

    But she’s not just the most attractive women I’ve ever seen. She’s also one of the most interesting, and I’ve been all over, but this woman gives me a run for my money. Also, she’s smart and classy.

    And you’ve got to see her dance.

    Also, her lifestyle matches mine, and she has one thing that’s entranced me:

    She has a voracious curiosity and a razor-sharp mind when it comes to observing things. Nothing gets past her, and she has the soul of a 12-year-old girl who’s never been jaded or crushed.

    She brings it out in me, too. I’m 10 years older than she is, and I feel as if we’re 10 years old together.

    That’s got to be something. I know she’ll get old and less attractive. But at night, when the lights are out, and you’re just lying there talking softly, and murmuring about some this or that —

    Or sitting in a car in the rain relaxing together –

    Well, whatever happened, nuclear fusion or what, took me right out of the game right away. More or less what I was looking for all along.

    The *packaging* had me fooled for a while. I thought, … conquest.

    Was I wrong. Maybe the other way around.

    I know: Could fall down hard. Myah. Done it before.

  68. Gorbachev says:

    @J
    That was some post, Gorb! MY DH and I are going out to dinner later, so I can’t answer at length. I’ll just hit the high notes. First, though I’m not Anglo, I’m very pro-marriage because I am pro-family. A lot of my objection to “living in sin” is not religious or a WASP-y sense of propriety. Some of my objections are pragmatic as well. I just wouldn’t want to take on the domestic role or give up my freedom without a commitment. There’s an opportunity cost to pay.

    I understand the objections, but I live in Mass and it’s a nightmare for married couples here, mostly for men: The divorce laws are a nightmare of titanic proportions. We men talk about it all the time. It’s practically the People’s Republic of Massachusetts here.

    I’ve seen men get *fleeced*.

    PCG knows the situation, also that I’m divorced and skittish; but I want a family and kids. I don’t care how beta it is, this is a huge thing on my agenda. It’s also a huge thing on hers, eventually – which is something I can handle with the right woman.

    She is possibly that.

    I glad that you helped PCG out with her Masters and that you see her as a whole person. That’s terrific. Your description of her and her closet sounds a bit princess-y though. That’s a red flag to me.

    The princess thing I’m trying to train her out of. I’ve had her camping once now, sans makeup and showers, and I plan to take her on a pretty rugged trip in the near future (hunting) – cold, outdoors, far from civilization.

    I’ve told her my feelings about vanity and I needle her all the time about it. She knows she’s hopelessly vain, which gives my “game” massive impact power.

    She’s embarrassed about being so vain. The rest of the male population for the past 27 years hasn’t helped any. I give her *nothing* to feed her vanity. Not a shred.

    My “mistake” with the ex was with a KAL (Korean Air Lines) flight attendant I was seeing on and off until I moved to Europe several years ago. We’re good friends, but there’s been nothing since. She’s older, but, well, let’s just say flight attendants over there aren’t chosen for their shoe size.

    Anyway, this shocked PCG: she now thinks I regularly find super hot women and they flock to me. Um, … while this is definitely not the case, it doesn’t hurt me to have her think this.

    So, oddly, for really attractive women, believe me: Cheating is painful, but do it with an uglier woman, and Damn, your stock goes way down. Do it with an equally hot woman, and your stock paradoxically goes up.

    Also, my flamethrower-like honesty has really taken her. I’ve always thought this: be honest and you cover your ass much more effectively.

    Besides, she knows I have no wish to cheat. I’ve been around, I’ve got no hankering after variety. My “count” is far more than high enough. I can more than happily settle, especially with the right girl.

    In fact, I actually regret much of the past 4 years. I could have had more actual relationships with actual women. Ironically, not a lifestyle I wholeheartedly endorse.

    If I was 22, maybe. 32, … less. What WAS I thinking.

    Giving a man a gun and saying, … don’t steal from this bank, … is a dangerous thing.

    The whore comment wasn’t a reflection on PCG at all; I meant that I personally would not cheat on a cheater because it’s whory. I didn’t think PCG had. I hope it didn’t read like that.

    Didn’t take it as such. You’re much too polite generally.

    As to her attractiveness to other men and the constant need to compete, that’s another red flag to me.

    You betcha.

    I’m watching that one.

    Her behavior saves it, but still: this is a woman who will always have mega options.

    She can be towing 3 kids and she’ll STILL have mega options. If she goes on holiday in France for a week, you can just imagine the anxiety it would cause any mate. It sucks.

    However, she’s also shockingly decent and somehow, … well, she bonds emotionally very tightly.

    Also, I’ve slept with her, and I know for a fact: Random sex will do nothing for her. She needs to be attached to her man. I know that for a very hard fact.

    So I think I might be good, if I can hold it together.

    You are right that she will continue to have options 10 years and a kid from now. </I.

    More than me, for sure.

    Of course, that's true now – not that Ill let that get out.

    Heck, I still have options, and I could be PCG’s mom. What worries me is the idea that you’ll still be competing.

    I hope at some point I’ll have proven myself, but I’ve read too much – seen too much – experienced too much to think that I can ever truly relax and take anything for granted.

    I can dose down the game, but I can’t ever lose it.

    While even I enjoy getting the hubs a bit jealous after all thse years, I don’t think he feels a need to compete. There’s a point where, if you can’t feel secure in the strength of a relationship, it’s not worth it.

    At some point, I’ll be there.

    She’s currently in that “He’s so amazing I can’t believe I got him” phase – I hear her talking to her friends sometimes. I also heard from one of her friends who wanted to check me out, and wholeheartedly approved of me.

    And told me: If I hurt her, she’ll beat me senseless. And that I’d better be serious.

    Part of the problem is that in her world, powerful men take on women like her and keep them around, … and maybe commit later. Maybe not. Maybe they keep several.

    They dole out stuff like candies.

    I don’t do that. I forced her to write her thesis, monitored her, prodded her, etc. – she thinks I’m the paragon of discipline (hah). I give her things on my schedule; we share most of the time.

    She’s never had that, and she’s not seen that. Also, I don’t kowtow to her beauty: my attitude is, you look nice. Is my rear ok? Nice ass, lose the dress. I liked the other dress. No heels today, I’m making you walk.

    Etc.

    No kowtowing. No man has ever done anything with her but be solicitous, eben the guys with the hard swagger.

    No man has ever been contemptuous of her inanities – I tell her like it is.

    Basically, she thinks I’m real. I need to do that, and when I do it, it comes out as a kind of natural “game”. It’s not staged.

    I just need to not put her on a pedestal. But the beta in me tries to do it all the time. Look at my descriptions. She’s just a Woman, for God’s sake.

    And yet: almost all men would be the same.

    The problem is that I do care and I am impressed.

    I won’t surrender to it, though: with proper training, and conversion of PUA to LTR game, slower to burn and based on maintaining that spark forever, I should be able to manage this.

    One day, with luck, we’ll be wrinkly and old, and smell bad, and most things will be memories – and I hope to still be entranced by that brain.

    That you think it is worth it, is what’s beta. My husband’s witnessing the attraction of other men to me allows me to demonstrate continuing value, but if he was seriously worried about the relationship he’d throw me out. That’s his real attitude towards the marriage, so I guess he doesn’t need to demonstrate further alphaness.

    This is a good point. Something I’m struggling with.

    I’ll see how it goes.

    But good point. I should think hard about that.

    As she sits in the next room. Hm.

  69. Lily says:

    This old rules/new rules thing is pink spectacled. Unless the US is really so much more puritanical than the UK, it’s not what you think it was.

    You make things too black and white, life isn’t like that.

  70. Lily says:

    Gorb, I’ve also read about your situation on various blogs. I think you also know that and I understand that you had a certain issue in er a particular situation, that wasn’t physical, it was psychological.

    Have you read Men are from Mars Women from Venus. I haven’t but I read about the ‘keeping score’ thing on the wikipedia page and it made a lot of sense to me. The wording is not a very nice description but I had assumed guys knew that about women.

  71. Gorbachev says:

    @Lily
    Gorb, I’ve also read about your situation on various blogs.

    You get around. No secrets here.

    I think you also know that and I understand that you had a certain issue in er a particular situation, that wasn’t physical, it was psychological.</I.

    Um. Yes. You do get around.

    That was, … surprising. I'm really a one-woman kind of guy. Really. Hard to tell sometimes, but really, I am.

    Have you read Men are from Mars Women from Venus. I haven’t but I read about the ‘keeping score’ thing on the wikipedia page and it made a lot of sense to me. The wording is not a very nice description but I had assumed guys knew that about women.

    Keeping score.

    Hm.

    Well. I know now what situations to avoid.

    Situations of many, … kinds.

  72. Lily says:

    “Having cheated with a super hot ex raises my value in her eyes.”
    See, I’m actually fairly ‘French’ in my thinking too. Sexual infidelity is not the worst thing to happen in a relationship. I would be more worried about my boy neglecting us or the baby or doing something really unethical in his business life which compromised whom I think he is. Obviously, if he had some 5 year affair with some other woman and lying to me all this time and he was stringing her along, that would really upset me. But some one nighter on a business trip, no it wouldn’t bother me nearly so much.

    But I think I’d be more unhappy about sexual infidelity if it happened now in these relatively-early days.
    And it certainly wouldn’t raise his value to me. I know what his exes look like. Some are really hot. But he’s with me now. That raises his value (and I suppose arguably my own value) in my eyes. Him going back to have sex with an ex after committing to me? Er, no.

    So please do careful about thinking about what she’s thinking. Maybe you can find out for certain in one way or another.

    She obviously must think you’re a good catch for one reason or another. One thing I was curious about, you said she’d had a threesome before but not with another woman and a man. Did you mean she’d had a threesome before but with two men?

  73. dalrock says:

    You make things too black and white, life isn’t like that.

    You mean like calling Marcos evil?

  74. Lily says:

    “Many young women wait to have sex until marriage or until they find the man they expect to marry. I don’t think it is fair to question their motive”
    No of course it isn’t. Judge not yet ye be judged and all that.

    But it isn’t fair for you to question motives for 30 something women you don’t know either. Maybe you can have a view of a particular situation but you’re judging entire swathes of women, just because of being unmarried at their age, when you yourself say the ‘carouselers’ are a minority. You don’t know whether these 30 or 35 year old woman were promiscous, or had a handful of people they had sex with or perhaps 1 or 2 boyfriends or perhaps none.

    And for some amazing reason all these 30 something women are penniless, because they are looking for someone to ‘pay for something they gave away for free’ or looking for men to support them. You never mention for example that the women may be bringing money into the marriage but want to have a few years at home with their children.

    Yet you think it’s completely fair for you to question their motives but not fair to question the other type of woman’s motives. 25 year old woman who has never had sex, maybe for christian reasons, maybe she’s not interested in sex, holding out for marrying the richest man she can? Or the one who can give her access to a country she she wants a visa for (e.g. UK girl to US)? No, of course, this could never happen.

  75. Novaseeker says:

    Sorry — the other comment was posted when I was logged into my other email account. Brendan=Novaseeker, as the readers of Susan’s blog know. Please feel free to delete either one of the dupes, Dalrock.

    This old rules/new rules thing is pink spectacled. Unless the US is really so much more puritanical than the UK, it’s not what you think it was.

    Interesting comment. My parents, who emigrated from the UK in the 1950s, always told me that London in the 1950s was *very* promiscuous in comparison to the US in the late 50s and early 60s — before the sexual revolution came along. I think perhaps the US was more different from the UK than you think — and still is, apart from the parts of the US that are, as one of my English relatives once said, “Londonish”. Remember, the US is *much* more religious than the UK is, and social mores about a whole host of issues differ dramatically, even today, outside the big blue coastal cities.

    Which is another point for the Americans reading. Game “works” everywhere, more or less, it’s true. But women behave differently based on location. The women of Manhattan, Miami and LA are not behaving at all like the women in flyover country, or even the ones in the more small city and even town/rural areas of the East or California. As Gorb points out, there’s a pretty huge cultural divide in the US between a handful of cities, on the one hand, and the rest of the place, on the other. This is reflected in our politics, too, for the non-Americans reading who sometimes puzzle over why the U.S. is as politically polarized as it is. It’s because the country itself, the culture, is wildly divided.

  76. Lily says:

    I didn’t say Marcus is evil. I said what he described in the way he was describing it was evil. If it was as it came across of course. If someone knowingly causes harm to other people and doesn’t care, or even takes pleasure from it, what else can you call it? I don’t think my vicar would care about anything the ‘mark’ had done beforehand.

    My reference to black and white is to do with how you talk about old rules and new rules. If I understand you correctly about when you talk about old rules, actually you are in fact talking about a specific time, even if you don’t realise it. You’re talking about post war US and for that matter England before the swinging 60s. So we’re effectively talking about the 1950s. And things were probably not what they seemed either.

    You should read some books from before this period. Or talk to your grandmother if she’s still alive, or women her generation. My granny’s certainly got some interesting stories, particularly from her mother’s generation.

  77. Lily says:

    That’s interesting. I get the impression that the 1950s in the UK was probably the most ‘puritanical’ it has ever been, either before or since. Focus post war was for people to go to work, get married have lots of babies and pay the reparations to the US (rationing carried on in the UK for a significant part of the 50s). London was probably the exception to the UK but possibly the war had such an impact on people’s attitudes towards sex.

    “Remember, the US is *much* more religious than the UK is”
    Yes you are right, I have commented on this before.

    Religion is different over here though. I don’t think most British people would accept what religion can mean in some factions of the US, almost on a physiological level. That gun toting bible belt etc is *so* far away from our village church fetes and the vicar popping in for a cup of tea.

    Also, it’s still mainly Church of England and Catholic, Methodists also but not evangelical (outside the black community I think some are pentecostal). Shame Quakers don’t seem very big. We love Quakers, well at least in the old days when they had great companies and made such a difference to the communities they had them in.

  78. Novaseeker says:

    Yes, although it cuts across the religious scale here in the US. Don’t get the impression that the evangelicals are the bulk of the religious folk in the US. If you drive around on a Sunday morning, you’ll see the car parks filled not only at the evangelical megachurches, but also at the Catholic ones, at the various mainline ones (liberal and conservative), and for us Eastern Orthodox you’ll see the street parking disappear for several blocks around (we often don’t have car parks!). And on Saturday, the synagogues are full, and so on.

    It’s just a religious country across the board, a true outlier among the Western countries. Church attendance in the UK is low (this link says 3% per month, 2% per week, for the CofE), whereas blended in the US it’s something like 26% per week, and 35% per month — a pretty huge difference of like ten times more church attendance, across the board. It’s just a very different landscape.

  79. Lily says:

    The link’s just C of E. More Catholics go to church in the UK than Church of England. Though most Catholics are immigrants. So in a way the C of E is a minority church. However, most people who call themselves C of E don’t go to church weekly.

  80. Novaseeker says:

    Yeah I’d be interested to see blended stats for the UK, but my guess is still under 6% or so total, given the relatively small % of the population which is Catholic there (I think it’s just under 1o% of the population?).

  81. Lily says:

    That’s probably about right. It’s actually quite a lot if you think about it. Very few of the families who were Catholic pre Reformation are still so (more credit to them if they are) so it’s mainly immigrants. I don’t know what the church attendances are there but obviously % must be bigger in order to greater than C of E whom most people are.

    Arguably, the English are libertarians at heart, we don’t like being told what to do, whether it’s the church or the ‘nanny state’.

  82. Novaseeker says:

    Yes. My guess is that it’s mostly Catholic immigrants from other European countries — and Catholics have a “mass obligation”, which encourages Sunday attendance, I think.

  83. Lily says:

    I’d guess most likely still mainly Irish. But Poles too since they joined the EU. As well of course the Goans, Filipinas etc, but I’d guess the first two are the main groups.

    Changes in Catholics too. From those I’ve spoken to, they don’t go to confession very often at all, they’d rather confess to God directly and just go to church. 20 years ago, it was pretty unthinkable to take communion without a recent confession.

  84. Hope says:

    I grew up in the midwest, but I lived in Chicago for several years, and most of my friends from school are in big cities like NYC, Boston, LA, SF, etc. The big city thing is just not for me though. It’s more of a personality thing than anything else. My husband and I aren’t big city people, despite having grown up in cities and having been all over the world (Asia, Europe and Africa in his case). We’re not extroverts, and we like our quietness.

    Oh yes, and just because Utah is flyover country doesn’t mean there isn’t sleeping around and hooking up culture here. He’s seen it quite a bit, especially among the non-religious, but even among the religious. The Twilight moms phenomenon is huge in the burbs and in rural areas, and it was a Mormon stay at home mother who wrote Twilight, after all. Neither of us has ever been promiscuous or into the casual thing, despite not being religious.

  85. Gorbachev says:

    @Lily
    Sexual infidelity is not the worst thing to happen in a relationship.

    I agree.

    There’s much worse.

    I would be more worried about my boy neglecting us or the baby or doing something really unethical in his business life which compromised whom I think he is.

    I agree.

    Obviously, if he had some 5 year affair with some other woman and lying to me all this time and he was stringing her along, that would really upset me. But some one nighter on a business trip, no it wouldn’t bother me nearly so much.

    It would still bother you, of course.

    I had the pass I got as a player being reformed. But the learning curve she expects of me, while a curve, is pretty steep. As in: This mistake is done, you’re not going to do this again, … right?

    I’m honest and say right.

    But this means: I’d better be right.

    I get a pass, but it’s not, … unconditional.

    But I think I’d be more unhappy about sexual infidelity if it happened now in these relatively-early days.

    Oddly, she’s not like that. If I cheated on her with an ex AFTERWARDS, it would be bad: the ex is competition. If I found a new girl ONS etc., then that might be Okay: PCG has time and established relationship on the new girl.

    So it reverses. An ex now is more tolerable, it’s more understandable; a new girl, no.

    But really.

    I know it’s bad territory to go there.

    Don’t wanna be that guy.

    And it certainly wouldn’t raise his value to me. I know what his exes look like. Some are really hot. But he’s with me now. That raises his value (and I suppose arguably my own value) in my eyes. Him going back to have sex with an ex after committing to me? Er, no.

    Ah, but I never went back to get that, …

    It kinda found me. An occupational hazard.

    Now dealt with quite effectively.

    So please do careful about thinking about what she’s thinking. Maybe you can find out for certain in one way or another.

    She’s living with me and has a closet of her own (pretty big – I gave up the big one), and we share my less empty bed. I should say she graces me with her presence. But that sounds insanely dumb.

    She obviously must think you’re a good catch for one reason or another.

    She likes my brain, she says. And my wit. And my charm. And my library. Also my hands. She likes nice big hands. She says she likes my heart.

    Well, I’m hoping she doesn’t want to eat it, or anything.

    One thing I was curious about, you said she’d had a threesome before but not with another woman and a man. Did you mean she’d had a threesome before but with two men?

    She’s done this twice. Yup. Two men.

    She swears by it. She says all women have to do it at least once in their lives. I’ve heard the same thing before, too.

    The potential is, … unmeasurable.

    I can relate stories as I’ve heard them, if you like.

    I’ve also done the same – long ago – with another GF. I’m not gay or anything. It was all very interesting.

  86. Gorbachev says:

    @Novaseeker
    Interesting comment. My parents, who emigrated from the UK in the 1950s, always told me that London in the 1950s was *very* promiscuous in comparison to the US in the late 50s and early 60s — before the sexual revolution came along. I think perhaps the US was more different from the UK than you think — and still is, apart from the parts of the US that are, as one of my English relatives once said, “Londonish”.

    I remember hearing stuff like this, too, about the US in the 1950’s.

    What’s weird is that Arabs who visited the US at the same time thought it was all Sodom and Gomorrah. One guy came and went back saying it was all evil and disastrously immoral – and founded the Muslim Brotherhood.

    Remember, the US is *much* more religious than the UK is, and social mores about a whole host of issues differ dramatically, even today, outside the big blue coastal cities.

    The big cities are a different world.

    I think lots of people outside of the big cities really have no idea what goes on in them.

    They send their kids to college in places like Boston (where I live) and are shocked when they hear stories of frat parties and women with 5 “boyfriends” a semester or hookups or whatever.

    The cities are literally like a different country.

    Which is another point for the Americans reading. Game “works” everywhere, more or less, it’s true. But women behave differently based on location. The women of Manhattan, Miami and LA are not behaving at all like the women in flyover country, or even the ones in the more small city and even town/rural areas of the East or California. As Gorb points out, there’s a pretty huge cultural divide in the US between a handful of cities, on the one hand, and the rest of the place, on the other. This is reflected in our politics, too, for the non-Americans reading who sometimes puzzle over why the U.S. is as politically polarized as it is. It’s because the country itself, the culture, is wildly divided.

    It’s really hard to explain this to people in other countries. In China they get it – the polarization there is, if anything, much worse than here; Shanghai is truly the Whore of Asia, in every possible sense.

    But in Korea, I remember, you find the same conservative old Ajjumas in the marketplaces and on buses as you did in the countryside. Actually, big city life was pretty much the same everywhere. And even in small towns, you had the requisite number of love hotels and other signs of decadence.

    Explaining how, say, Torrance was not LA or Springfield wasn’t Boston or rural Virginia had nothing in common with DC – at all – was difficult.

  87. sdaedalus says:

    Thought you guys might be interested in this.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/oct/16/love-stories

    The old couple seem to get on best together but of course as you get older the past is looked back on with rosy-tinted glasses.

  88. Novaseeker says:

    Explaining how, say, Torrance was not LA or Springfield wasn’t Boston or rural Virginia had nothing in common with DC – at all – was difficult.

    Yep.

    Most countries have a town mouse/country mouse thing going on to some degree, but that’s just scratching the surface in the US. In the US, it’s not just the urban/rural thing. It’s (a) a handful (20 or so) of the large metros and (b) everywhere else. And they really are like different countries, culturally. I agree that it’s hard to explain. I remember once when one set of relatives was visiting, and they were on the usual — NYC/DC-Miami-LA-SF type of touring around thing, with maybe a perfunctory stop in a place like the Grand Canyon. One day I decided to take them on a spin into the “wilds” of Virginia, 1-2 hours away from DC. They were pretty shocked at how different it was from the other places they had seen, all of which were big cities. I guess they kind of thought that the place was more or less homogeneous, with the non-big-city parts being just the small town/country equivalent of the cities — which it really isn’t. And even that is mostly surface. To see the real differences you need to actually interact with folks who live there and get their pulse. And when you do that, you understand why we have elections like we do — the country really *is* much more divided than it seems when all you do is hang in Boston, DC, Manhattan and SF.

  89. Hope says:

    Don’t forget the large class divisions. In Chicago I was around mostly upper middle class professionals. They never do the party/club scenes. Everybody’s married by their 30s, have dinner parties, do marathons, are involved in philanthropy, and only see baseball (never football). They are very unmessy about their love lives. Then again, Chicago is definitely not NYC. People just did not party too hard, at least the ones I knew.

    When I was in SF it was more of a nerdy scene than anything else. Tons of hippies, nerdy whites, Asians. Also lots of Hispanics, but not of the nerdy variety. But I would guess there is a lot more of the hooking up culture, especially because of the huge number of gay men. Chicago has boystown, but people generally settle down early. I saw lots of young, 20-something women with engagement and wedding rings when I lived in Chicago.

    Rural west vs. rural east can be very different, too. Out in the mountain west, you don’t find that many women outside of cities due to the very harsh terrain. It’s a lot of outdoorsy, camping, mountain climbing types away from the population centers, or old retired couples. Rural areas in the east and midwest tend to have more of the “stereotypical” small towns, whereas rural areas in the mountain west feel more like frontier towns. Not sure about California, since it’s not in the Rocky Mountains region.

  90. J says:

    @Gorb

    Well, I’m hoping she doesn’t want to eat it, or anything.

    LOL

    She’s done this twice. Yup. Two men. She swears by it. She says all women have to do it at least once in their lives. I’ve heard the same thing before, too.

    OK, now I’ve switched from being worried about her to being worried about you. It seems to me, never having actually had one, that a threesome is one of those things that makes for an interesting fantasy, but has emotional complications that few people can really handle. In my limited experience, it seems to me that if PCG got through one without feeling degraded and still feeling in control of the situation, she must have ice water in her veins. I may be wrong, but the few women I know IRL who have had such experiences all came out a bit damaged. If PCG came out on top of that situation, she is most likely more dangerous than you are. She might eat just eat your heart.

  91. J says:

    but I want a family and kids. I don’t care how beta it is, this is a huge thing on my agenda.

    Not a damn thing beta about it. Anyone who tells you different is full of shit.

    Gorb, here’s something that bothers me. A lot of what you say that’s positive about PCG is related to sexual attraction. Obviously, we need to have some attraction for love to grow, but (even if she eventually displaces me as the world’s hottest 50 year old ;-) ) you need a lot more to make a marrige and/or family work.

    Here’s a homework assignment: List 10 things you love about PCG’s character. Stuff like great taste in shoes doesn’t count; loyalty and kindness do. If you want a predictor of your future and some insight your own priorities, this’ll tell you a lot. You needn’t share the results with me, but do it for yourself. You’ll learn a lot.

    When DH and I were dating I made a list of his strong and weak points and then tried to figure out which of the weak points I could deal or not with if they never changed. It was remarkably predictive of how our marriage has actually been. I’m glad I made the list. I still have it and refer to it in tough times as a reminder that I knew what I was getting into. I’d do it again. I’d also go back and make a similar list about myself, what I thought I had to offer and what I needed to work on. It would have been helpful to think that out more clearly instead of learning the hard way. ;-)

    Attraction brings people together, Gorb. Character either keeps them together or pulls them apart.

  92. J says:

    You’re much too polite generally.

    Really? A lot of people find me a bit blunt and insensitive IRL.

  93. J says:

    she likes the swagger Arab/Persian men have.

    This is a BIG red flag to me. As I said before, I am in part descended from a nation of macho swaggers. I really hate them. They generally offer more sizzle than substance. My own DH is a very modest, soft-spoken guy…who you wouldn’t want to mess with. No swagger, loads of substance. Love of swagger can be a sign of immaturity. I get your need to say “Bring the movies.” But if it were my son I was advising, I’d tell him to back away from that.

  94. J says:

    I’d never make bets on anybody’s marriage.

    Honey, even I wouldn’t make a bet on my marriage. It’s when you take things for granted that a marriage falls to shit.

  95. Gorbachev says:

    @J
    She’s done this twice. Yup. Two men. She swears by it. She says all women have to do it at least once in their lives. I’ve heard the same thing before, too.

    OK, now I’ve switched from being worried about her to being worried about you. It seems to me, never having actually had one, that a threesome is one of those things that makes for an interesting fantasy, but has emotional complications that few people can really handle. In my limited experience, it seems to me that if PCG got through one without feeling degraded and still feeling in control of the situation, she must have ice water in her veins. I may be wrong, but the few women I know IRL who have had such experiences all came out a bit damaged. If PCG came out on top of that situation, she is most likely more dangerous than you are. She might eat just eat your heart.

    The first time, she was 23; the man was her first BF, nothing serious, and another friend who suggested it. She was living in Paris in her own apartment (her father has one there, not clear on the whole ownership thing- a messy financial past he had), and believe me – a threesome is not a weird situation for a 23 year-old French (French educated, if not French) girl in France. Not common, but not weird. In Germany, it’s downright de rigeur. You’re not an adult until you’ve funkified your life. The Germans are insane, however.

    The second time was with her Persian BF and was after a party and she was in university doing her master’s and it was NYC and there was a rooftop condo involved. I’ve heard the story and I’m not surprised.

    In neither case was she cold; she’s one of the warmest and least calculating people I’ve ever met. If anything, she’s too “bonding”. In both cases, it wasn’t cold questing for pleasure, it was just situational. I’ve known women who seek this sort of thing out, and they *can* be cold. She’s 27, and entirely urban, and while a virgin until a later age, when she came out, the crowd she was in was a little decadent, and she grew to disrespect it quickly, while not finding anything else to replace it with. The decadent, Armchair Liberal International types with money from X or Y who seem to have crazily diverse resumes and a list of top colleges – and connected family members – is all nice and good, but she smelled phoney all the time.

    I’m slowly but surely selling her on small-town(ish) values, those compatible with living an urban life, anyway, and a typically American way of seeing the world. Despite the fact that she;s basically anchored here, she spent much of her life in a Swiss boarding school, resenting her parents, in Paris for summers (thanks dad) and being feted by hotshot NYC / NJ / Miami Persians who chased her hard.

    I’m something different for her:

    Simpler; more rough (ie, hunting on weekends, camping, road trips; my family has always sailed, not because they had money, it was just what you were doing, be it a two-man runner or whatever), New England old school Yankee stuff. It’s why I loved Canada when I went up to visit: It was like an Alternate Universe version of New England, oddly similar in superficial ways, but too – like what NE would be if there had never been a revolution. Which makes sense, I guess. Because that’s what it is.

    But she’s entranced by this, now. My next plan is to take her hunting in northern Ontario Canada – I found a place that will outfit you and get you a moose tag for not all that much, and I’d not do it but that I think she would love it.

    She’s reserving her opinion about hunting, but I’m slowly but surely bringing her around to my way of thinking about many things.

    I’ve had in on her about some of the more hypocritical aspects of feminism – she’s absolutely totally SWPL – and she’s seen my points and started to agree with me. I know where the soft points are because I was exactly like her.

    It’s about time for her to meet my family.

    I think.

  96. Gorbachev says:

    @J


    but I want a family and kids. I don’t care how beta it is, this is a huge thing on my agenda.

    Not a damn thing beta about it. Anyone who tells you different is full of shit.

    Thank you. Now go post that on Roissy’s world somewhere.

    Gorb, here’s something that bothers me. A lot of what you say that’s positive about PCG is related to sexual attraction.

    For sure.

    Obviously, we need to have some attraction for love to grow, but (even if she eventually displaces me as the world’s hottest 50 year old ;-) ) you need a lot more to make a marrige and/or family work.

    This is true.

    I’ve been there before, though – my standards are now pretty high.

    Here’s a homework assignment: List 10 things you love about PCG’s character. Stuff like great taste in shoes doesn’t count; loyalty and kindness do. If you want a predictor of your future and some insight your own priorities, this’ll tell you a lot. You needn’t share the results with me, but do it for yourself. You’ll learn a lot.

    I can do this right now, partly for my own benefit.

    – Waling by a homeless guy in NYC. He seemed completely derelict. She was for some reason visibly disturbed. She went to an ATM, took out $100, got change for $20, and dropped $3 by the guy and a sandwich.
    I swear to God, I had nothing to do with it. She wasn’t trying to impress anyone. I was bemused. The woman has a heart of gold.

    – She’s forgiven the player two mistakes, and while expecting a lot from me, has delivered a lot. Without expecting anything in return. Which makes me want to give it to her even more. And she knows this and appreciates it. Genuine.

    – She’s insanely loyal to her little coterie of friends.

    – Her father was a bit of a ne’er do-well and was convicted of corruption and fraud in France connected to a massive aeronautics probe a decade ago. She’s stood by him as lots of people (including her sister) didn’t. Impressive.

    – She’s impressed by common people. Normal folk. She once chatted up a taxi driver when we grabbed a cab, talking about his kids and his life. She wasn’t just doing it: She was genuinely interested in his life. How many people do that?

    – She wants children. Why? Because she *loves* children. She goes all googly as soon as children enter the room.

    – She has immense respect for old people. She chose a retirement home for the social-work volunteer practicum for her degree requirements. Why? She loves listening to their stories and feels a human bond with them.

    It’s just not possible for me not to love her.

    Every damned minute, … it was hopeless from the beginning.

    Drawbacks:

    Vain to the point of bursting; I tease and “neg” her on it and never feed her vanity, which gives me two things: She thinks I treat her more seriously than other people, and it gives me and endless means to neg her without looking like an asshole.
    Actually, that’s hugely beneficial. But the vanity is astounding. Just try walking past a mirror with her. Budget at least an extra 30 seconds.

    – No time sense at all. Nothing: I’ll be there in half an hour. An hour and a half later she shows up. She just got, … delayed. It’s charming sometimes, but, … I have to be on her all the time.

    – She loses *everything*. All the time. She literally needs someone to walk behind her and say, “Why did you put that there?” “Are you going to remember you put that there?” “Does that belong there?”

    Etc.

    Unbelievably bad with money. It couldn’t possibly be worse. There are going to be separate finances – forever.

    I’ll end up managing hers if we stay together. I know it. But they’re not getting mixed. Anyway, she knows how to live within a budget – barely. Her family all seems to be hopeless this way. Her family’s solution was always to make more money and just layer it on top of their lifestyle.

    Alas, that lifestyle imploded around 9 years ago. She’s on her own, now.

    The last thing she needs is for me to provide for her. She could bag any rich guy she wanted if she had half an inclination to do so.

    When DH and I were dating I made a list of his strong and weak points and then tried to figure out which of the weak points I could deal or not with if they never changed. It was remarkably predictive of how our marriage has actually been. I’m glad I made the list. I still have it and refer to it in tough times as a reminder that I knew what I was getting into. I’d do it again. I’d also go back and make a similar list about myself, what I thought I had to offer and what I needed to work on. It would have been helpful to think that out more clearly instead of learning the hard way. ;-)
    Attraction brings people together, Gorb. Character either keeps them together or pulls them apart.

    This is a good idea.

    I’m going to do it.

    Thanks.

  97. Gorbachev says:

    @J,

    On the swagger thing,

    I get that.

    This is why I find her attraction to me heartening. She’s said I’m ironically likely the biggest player she’s ever dated (probably true – but also ironically also untrue, in a deeper sense; hard to explain; my playerdom was largely situational, not motivational: kid in a candy store). And yet, also the most genuine guy she’s ever dated, by far. And the one who was both most serious and most decent to her.

    She finds this irresistible, and so – I have some faith.

    But I don’t fault her for going for the swagger. *ALL* women do. They love it. She’s 27; by 35, she’ll have, hopefully, matured.

    When my ex and I married, we were 25 and 24; she had a tiny taste of bad boys. She decided she needed lots more by the time we were 30.

    PCG has had the bad boys. She likes the swagger, but they’ve been dicks to her. The rich dicks are the worst. The macho types are attractive, but lose it quickly.

    She’s said this to a friend: It struck her that I could go out and actually fish, kill the fish, grill the fish and eat it; and never blink. The men she knows wouldn’t do that. Too disgusting. I could also go out and bag a goose and clean and eat it.

    In a fight, a square fight, she knows I’d not showboat and would quickly bring another guy down, the most efficient way possible (I’ve had to do this once; guy beating his GF in public in Korea, not entirely uncommon late at night; I couldn’t take it any more, ignore it like the Koreans walking by; I brought him down right hard; then I called the cops and held the guy on the ground; she heard this story from my ex. That made an impression.).

    So she thinks that 5’10” 187lb white guy is the Real Shit, compared to the 6’1″ 205lb vain Persian / Arab gym nuts she often hung out with.

    I just have to make sure I can actually live up to this image she has. I think it’s actually me, so it might be okay.

  98. Gorbachev says:

    @J

    I’d never make bets on anybody’s marriage.

    Honey, even I wouldn’t make a bet on my marriage. It’s when you take things for granted that a marriage falls to shit.

    (Alfalfa face, looks at camera)

    And That’s The Twuth.

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  101. Nutz says:

    Women in their prime riding the cock carousel spurns good men. Men in their prime 10-15 years later doing the same to women is just social justice.

    To the women who hate this the solution is simple: settle down with a good provider and dad early on and you’ve got nothing to worry about.

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  103. van Rooinek says:

    for almost all men in this position, there is no single woman one can point out as having been personally cruel. They didn’t single us out for coordinated rejection, they didn’t deliberately set out to cause us the hurt.

    Speak for yourself. I experienced some deliberate, intentional cruelty, from women I approached honorably, and in one case, from a girl I was only casually chatting with and WASN’T trying to ask out! Also at least 2 cases (that I know about) of spiteful rumor spreading – IN CHURCH no less – that effectively amounted to coordinated group rejection. One case I know about because one of the culprits repented and called me up to apologize, years later; in the other case, I was actually dating a girl (rare thing at that church) but the rest of the girls at her Bible study didn’t know that, and felt free to share hostile gossip about me over tea and cookies after Bible study was over!

    And if we’re at least a bit honest with ourselves, back when we were younger ourselves, we just weren’t all that attractive! ..”

    Again speak for yourself. When I was young and injury free, I worked out like a maniac and looked a lot better than I do now. Tall, handsome, no wrinkles, no gray hair, fit and muscular, and an unjaded old-fashioned romantic, the total opposite of a commitophobe… and I no luck getting to the altar. Not until my income finally started taking off in my mid-30s, more than a decade after I was ready and willing to marry.

    Now that I’m old, graying, getting some lines, have put on some fat (not my fault — got injured), and have a wedding ring and 3 kids, women check me out and flirt with me all the time. Sorry, you’re too late — this nice guy is OFF THE MARKET.

  104. superenigma says:

    I agree with this comment:

    “Sigh that’s so sad. Stringing women along at their last chance to have a family just because you are bummed out you weren’t able to get as much action as a younger lad? The punishment does not fit the crime.”

    In addition, it seems like an almighty waste of time. It would be better to find a woman you really like than to find one you deem suitable for “payback” for a ‘crime’ she may have committed.

    Think also before you start patting these headbangers on the back: do you think that they will actually feel any better about themselves or about their past after they play their vengeance game? I very much doubt it.

    Lastly, before anyone writes that I ‘must be a woman’, I should point out that I am male, in my mid-20s, so being stuck in the no-sex desert is a very recent and vivid memory for me. Nonetheless I seem to have more perspective and less craziness than some of my seniors commenting here.

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  108. James says:

    Superenigma I’m not sure you’re getting what he was saying. He is a beta, he was passed over. Therefore it’s perfectly within a beta’s set of rules to lash out in return. Instead of hurting someone first like an alpha would do. Beta’s and Alpha’s are the same thing. Men. Don’t start none and there won’t be none.

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  110. Paul Murray says:

    @saj “Sigh that’s so sad. Stringing women along at their last chance to have a family just because you are bummed out you weren’t able to get as much action as a younger lad? The punishment does not fit the crime.”

    Yes it does. The *reason* that it is their last chance to have a family is that we weren’t good enough for them when they were young and hot, and now they expect to take us now? If they had behave decently and not slutted around, they would not be in this predicament.

  111. “The punishment does not fit the crime.”

    I beg to differ! When women have all the advantages in their teens and twenties, it isn’t “fair”, either – but we men are supposed to take whatever they dish out!
    So what happens is that they are as sexually vicious, hateful, cruel, and sadistic as they can be –
    just because they can be!
    And they certainly are NOT the least bit concerned about whether or not THAT’s “fair”!

    Well, “What goes around, comes around!”

  112. an observer says:

    Van Rooinek,

    Did you note the implied contrast?

    A man seeing multuple women is obviously leading them on, and stringing them along. But when a 25 year old woman does the same, does anyone blink?

    To echo your comment, the hatred and disdain for men runs deep. In one former church, single men over 25 were ostracised and pushed into young marrieds groups. Yeah, thanks, very relevant. And the younger women were by no means godly. When the elders daughter wasn’t spreading rumours about men being gay, she was pining after the drummer. Very edifying.

    I realise of course that prolonged singleness in my twenties all my own fault. Instead of staying in shape, learning a profession and being involved in ministry work, i should have been gaming the hotties, fathering bastard spawn children and getting tattooes. Silly me.

    Ps have been reading Podles and finding it very insightful. It explains a lot about western church culture any why men in general never seem to fit in.

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  114. xsplat says:

    That’s called the “beta bait and switch”.

  115. Rickstar says:

    What a bunch of crap this is. Real life is not like any of this in my experience. You people are all losers. Grow up, and man up, losers.

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  121. Luke says:

    J says:
    October 15, 2010 at 1:45 pm

    “Very few women get alimony, and at least in my state those who do are older, non-career woman who often put a husband through profesional school when they were young. In other words, a sixty year old woman who worked while her husband was in med school and then stayed home with kids and childchildren for 35 years, gets alimony until she remarries. I probably wouldn’t. Basically, I think that’s fair.

    As for child support, make a baby, take care of a baby. It shouldn’t be voluntary.”

    1) Alimony arguably should be at most ONLY until EITHER partner remarries. A man’s current wife could quite reasonably find objectionable his spending money on another woman. Anyway, the frivorcing 65-YO woman had the benefit of marriage while she was married. Lose the marriage, lose the benefits of marriage. It’s not as if she would give her ex-husband “husband alimony” until HE remarries. (That would be where she comes over 3x a week to do his laundry, cook him a couple of meals, washing the dishes after, mop his floors, and give him a BJ and a screw, in whatever order he wants, just for a few years.)

    2) Child support is traditionally what a man does for his child, in his household. If the kid is taken away from the father by no real fault of his (gaining 20 pounds, no longer giving his wife the “O”, going bald, or not making as much dough as her alpha ex FWB from her last year of college are NOT “real fault of his”). If Mom can’t feed and house the kid, he should be sent to Dad’s. (Really, past somewhere in the age 6-11 category, the vast majority of children do better in their father’s house than in their mother’s, if their parents aren’t togther.)

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